Proposal for definition in FAQ of "Christianity"

[Nadiine]

Props to *Starlight* for remembering that beliefs are all, ultimately, ideas.

After all, isn't it a little presumptuous to claim knowledge of the mind of an omniscient God?
It's far from "presumptuous" to know the mind of God -WHEN HE GAVE YOU 66 BOOKS TO KNOW HIM BY.

It's even MORE presumptuous to refute and deny the teachings found in that very book to not only refute and deny what's written, but to decide that your opinions of truth are the MIND AND HEART OF GOD.
Your own created ideals ursurp what is written in the scriptures from eyewitnesses of God in their time.
ie. creating spiritual truths to suit personal opinions and then claiming THAT is the mind of God; THAT IS SPEAKING FOR GOD.

That's the height of presumption - not reiterating what is clearly taught.

[PreachersWife2004]

It's far from "presumptuous" to know the mind of God -WHEN HE GAVE YOU 66 BOOKS TO KNOW HIM BY.

It's even MORE presumptuous to refute and deny the teachings found in that very book to not only refute and deny what's written, but to decide that your opinions of truth are the MIND AND HEART OF GOD.
Your own created ideals ursurp what is written in the scriptures from eyewitnesses of God in their time.
ie. creating spiritual truths to suit personal opinions and then claiming THAT is the mind of God; THAT IS SPEAKING FOR GOD.

That's the height of presumption - not reiterating what is clearly taught.

I really need to go find other posts to rep so I can rep you again, Nadiine.

Great post! :thumbsup::amen:

[PreachersWife2004]

A Christian is one who lives by this precept: Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength, and thy neighbour as thyself.

But there are many unbelievers who live by this precept. How can they be Christians?

[chaoschristian]

Nadiine, and for any other who supports this draft FAQ, a question asked for the sake of understanding:

Are scriptures the complete revelation of God?

Not a trick question, and I'm not going to hammer you for your responses (others please refrain as well). Just want to hear what you have to say is all.

Thank you.

[chaoschristian]

But there are many unbelievers who live by this precept. How can they be Christians?

Some would argue that they are 'anonymous' Christians. Ask Stumpjumper, he's out resident local expert on such matters.

[Nadiine]

Some would argue that they are 'anonymous' Christians. Ask Stumpjumper, he's out resident local expert on such matters.
There is ONE WAY TO THE FATHER, THRU JESUS CHRIST ALONE. LOVE isn't the way to salvation, CHRIST - God incarnate is. LOVE is the byproduct of that genuine salvation.
And love is found is truth (of God).

Thanks all the same, but I don't need stump to tell me who's an "anonymous christian" or not.

[Melethiel]

LOVE is the byproduct of that genuine salvation.
I think that was kind of his point.

[PreachersWife2004]

It is what I consider to be the complete revelation:

Heb 1:1-2
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

2 Tim 3:14-17
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

[PreachersWife2004]

Some would argue that they are 'anonymous' Christians. Ask Stumpjumper, he's out resident local expert on such matters.

They could argue that, but they'd be wrong.

If one says "I do not believe in God, or Jesus or the Holy Spirit" they cannot be a Christian, no matter how good of a person they are, or how selfless or how much they love their neighbor.

Being good doesn't get us into heaven.

I think the term "anonymous Christian" is an oxymoron.

[Nadiine]

Nadiine, and for any other who supports this draft FAQ, a question asked for the sake of understanding:

Are scriptures the complete revelation of God?

Not a trick question, and I'm not going to hammer you for your responses (others please refrain as well). Just want to hear what you have to say is all.

Thank you.
I'd be glad to answer you CC.
I'll quote Isaiah who I think said it best:

Isaiah 8:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=8&verse=20&version=9&context=verse)
To the law and to the testimony:
if they speak not according to this word,
it is because there is no light in them.

and from John:
2 John 1:9-10
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

The Bible is our source of testing the spirits that present themselves thru teachings. The NT is repleat with warnings & truths so we can know how to spot a false teacher and what is false.
God will not give a revelation to someone separately that completely contradicts His own word.
In fact, God is SO concerned with abiding in His own testimony of Himself (thru scripture), that all thru the NT, Jesus repeats the phrase, "this was done in order that the scripture might be fulfilled...."
He came to make those words in the bible REAL and EVIDENCED to prove who He was. (only God can tell the future - and He did that by fulfilling His words).

So, while Christians agree the Bible is not the "ONLY" words of God or the ONLY way God reveals Himself to man, He will not relay revelations, truths or teachings or commands OPPOSITE WHAT ARE TAUGHT IN THE SCRIPTURES.
IF that were the case, we're to test that spirit to see if it is of God - and dismiss it as FALSE and coming from our adversary:

2 Corinthians 11:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=11&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


1 Timothy 4:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=4&verse=1&version=9&context=verse)
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly,
that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,
giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy;
having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

[Nadiine]

I think that was kind of his point.
but the point was that even the heathen "love". John actually taught that 'LOVE OF THE BRETHREN' is the sign of a genuine believer - not general love of everyone.

[Melethiel]

I didn't state I agreed with him...just that you missed his point.

[Nadiine]

The sign is loving your fellow brother/sister in Christ:

1 Peter 1:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1 John 3:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=3&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren.
He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer:
and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

The unsaved love, and have love for others and do lots of great things (charity etc)... but many if not most do not have a genuine or deep love for Christians. We're quite unpopular with the world and have always been under persecution.

If people proclaiming they're Christians do not love the family of God, then they are most likely NOT one of that family.

[LilLamb219]

God has revealed what we need to know concerning salvation. There are, of course, things we do not know about Him and His ways. But as fas as salvation, He has shown us what He has done for us and given us scriptures so that we may know :clap:

Nadiine, and for any other who supports this draft FAQ, a question asked for the sake of understanding:

Are scriptures the complete revelation of God?

Not a trick question, and I'm not going to hammer you for your responses (others please refrain as well). Just want to hear what you have to say is all.

Thank you.

[TheManeki]

but the point was that even the heathen "love". John actually taught that 'LOVE OF THE BRETHREN' is the sign of a genuine believer - not general love of everyone.
Except Jesus taught that "the bretheren" means everybody (Luke 10:25-37), not merely fellow Christians.

It's easy to love someone with beliefs similar to mine. Why would Jesus take the time to issue a commandment over something as simple and easy to do as that? The more someone is different from me, the harder it is to love and empathize with them. This is why Jesus commanded us -- to give us the impetus to love those different than us, even when it is difficult.

[Joykins]

Matthew 5:43-48

[chaoschristian]

It is what I consider to be the complete revelation:

Heb 1:1-2
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

2 Tim 3:14-17
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Thank you for your response to my question.

[chaoschristian]

I'd be glad to answer you CC.
I'll quote Isaiah who I think said it best:

Isaiah 8:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=8&verse=20&version=9&context=verse)
To the law and to the testimony:
if they speak not according to this word,
it is because there is no light in them.

and from John:
2 John 1:9-10
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

The Bible is our source of testing the spirits that present themselves thru teachings. The NT is repleat with warnings & truths so we can know how to spot a false teacher and what is false.
God will not give a revelation to someone separately that completely contradicts His own word.
In fact, God is SO concerned with abiding in His own testimony of Himself (thru scripture), that all thru the NT, Jesus repeats the phrase, "this was done in order that the scripture might be fulfilled...."
He came to make those words in the bible REAL and EVIDENCED to prove who He was. (only God can tell the future - and He did that by fulfilling His words).

So, while Christians agree the Bible is not the "ONLY" words of God or the ONLY way God reveals Himself to man, He will not relay revelations, truths or teachings or commands OPPOSITE WHAT ARE TAUGHT IN THE SCRIPTURES.
IF that were the case, we're to test that spirit to see if it is of God - and dismiss it as FALSE and coming from our adversary:

2 Corinthians 11:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=11&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.


14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.



1 Timothy 4:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=4&verse=1&version=9&context=verse)
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly,
that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,
giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy;

having their conscience seared with a hot iron;


Thank you for your response to my question.

[PreachersWife2004]

ChaosChristian, you are very welcome.

God's blessings to you.

[chaoschristian]

God has revealed what we need to know concerning salvation. There are, of course, things we do not know about Him and His ways. But as fas as salvation, He has shown us what He has done for us and given us scriptures so that we may know :clap:

Thank you for your response to my question (sorry I took so long, I just read your post.)

[Nadiine]

Except Jesus taught that "the bretheren" means everybody (Luke 10:25-37), not merely fellow Christians.
Acutally it's not the same - notice Johns context, he's speaking to his fellow believers (calling them "brethren"),
then goes on to note how the world will hate us believers. That sets up the meaning given - the WORLD hates us, but we LOVE one another as brethren - he's contrasting the world (the lost) vs. another believer.

Showing the same hatred towards a fellow Christian is just what the world displays; it's a SIGN that they are not of the same family. Context is key there:

1 John 3:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=3&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren.
He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer:
and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

And 1 Peter uses specific Greek of the family in Christ:
philadelphia:
1) love of brothers or sisters, brotherly love
2) in the NT the love which Christians cherish for each other as brethren
basic family love within the family of God.

It's easy to love someone with beliefs similar to mine. Why would Jesus take the time to issue a commandment over something as simple and easy to do as that? The more someone is different from me, the harder it is to love and empathize with them. This is why Jesus commanded us -- to give us the impetus to love those different than us, even when it is difficult
Actually, it's NOT easy to love a Christian unless you are one yourself. & while yes it's true that it's easier to love people who love us and we are to love everyone - It isn't the same in principle.
Not everyone is our family in Christ. (also not all Christians are easy to love either - or hasn't anyone noticed that around this forum yet ???) :sorry: :holy:

And it's THAT deeper [agapeo] love that contrasts the world's hatred or disdain towards us - that is a sign that we are IN that family when we love Christians.

Here's a piece of a commentary on 1 John 3:14

4. (13-15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Jo/1Jo003.html#13)) Love as the evidence of the new birth.
Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
a. Do not marvel: We shouldn’t be surprised when the world hates us; but we should be surprised when there is hatred among the body of Christ.
b. We know: John insists that the believer can come to a place of genuine assurance. "I have, heard it said, by those who would be thought philosophers, that in religion we must believe, but cannot know. I am not very clear about the distinction they draw between knowledge and faith, nor do I care to enquire; because I assert that, in matters relating to religion, we know; in the things of God, we both believe and know." (Spurgeon)
c. We know that we have passed from death to life: A love for the people of God is a basic sign of being born again. If this love is not evident in our lives, our salvation can be questioned. If it is present, it gives us assurance.
i. We can know we have passed from death to life by our love for other Christians. The place of hatred, of jealousy, of bitterness you find yourself in is a place of death. You need to pass from death over to life.
ii. This means knowing two things. First, we know that we were dead. Second, we know that we have passed to life from death. To pass from death to life is the reverse of the normal. We all expect to pass from life to death; but in Jesus, we can turn it around.
iii. This speaks to our pursuit of fellowship. If we love the brethren, we will want to be with them - and even if we have been battered and bruised by unloving brethren, there will still be something in us drawing us back to fellowship with the brethren we love.
iv. "Do you love them for Christ’s sake? Do you say to yourself, 'That is one of Christ’s people; that is one who bears Christ’s cross; that is one of the children of God; therefore I love him, and take delight in his company'? Then, that is an evidence that you are not of the world." (Spurgeon).....

ii. Being a Christian is more than saying, “I am a Christian.” There are in fact some who claim to be Christians who are not.
How can we know if we are one of these? John’s reply has been constant and simple. There are three tests to measure the proof of a genuine Christian:
the truth test,
the love test,
and the moral test.
If we believe in what the Bible teaches as true, if we show the love of Jesus to others, and if our conduct has been changed and is becoming more like Jesus, then our claim to be a Christian can be proven true.

[TheManeki]

Acutally it's not the same - notice Johns context, he's speaking to his fellow believers (calling them "brethren"),
then goes on to note how the world will hate us believers. That sets up the meaning given - the WORLD hates us, but we LOVE one another as brethren - he's contrasting the world (the lost) vs. another believer.

Showing the same hatred towards a fellow Christian is just what the world displays; it's a SIGN that they are not of the same family. Context is key there:

1 John 3:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=3&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren.
He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer:
and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

And 1 Peter uses specific Greek of the family in Christ:
philadelphia:
1) love of brothers or sisters, brotherly love
2) in the NT the love which Christians cherish for each other as brethren
basic family love within the family of God.


Actually, it's NOT easy to love a Christian unless you are one yourself. & while yes it's true that it's easier to love people who love us and we are to love everyone - It isn't the same in principle.
Not everyone is our family in Christ. (also not all Christians are easy to love either - or hasn't anyone noticed that around this forum yet ???) :sorry: :holy:

And it's THAT deeper [agapeo] love that contrasts the world's hatred or disdain towards us - that is a sign that we are IN that family when we love Christians.

Here's a piece of a commentary on 1 John 3:14

4. (13-15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Jo/1Jo003.html#13)) Love as the evidence of the new birth.
Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
a. Do not marvel: We shouldn’t be surprised when the world hates us; but we should be surprised when there is hatred among the body of Christ.
b. We know: John insists that the believer can come to a place of genuine assurance. "I have, heard it said, by those who would be thought philosophers, that in religion we must believe, but cannot know. I am not very clear about the distinction they draw between knowledge and faith, nor do I care to enquire; because I assert that, in matters relating to religion, we know; in the things of God, we both believe and know." (Spurgeon)
c. We know that we have passed from death to life: A love for the people of God is a basic sign of being born again. If this love is not evident in our lives, our salvation can be questioned. If it is present, it gives us assurance.
i. We can know we have passed from death to life by our love for other Christians. The place of hatred, of jealousy, of bitterness you find yourself in is a place of death. You need to pass from death over to life.
ii. This means knowing two things. First, we know that we were dead. Second, we know that we have passed to life from death. To pass from death to life is the reverse of the normal. We all expect to pass from life to death; but in Jesus, we can turn it around.
iii. This speaks to our pursuit of fellowship. If we love the brethren, we will want to be with them - and even if we have been battered and bruised by unloving brethren, there will still be something in us drawing us back to fellowship with the brethren we love.
iv. "Do you love them for Christ’s sake? Do you say to yourself, 'That is one of Christ’s people; that is one who bears Christ’s cross; that is one of the children of God; therefore I love him, and take delight in his company'? Then, that is an evidence that you are not of the world." (Spurgeon).....

ii. Being a Christian is more than saying, “I am a Christian.” There are in fact some who claim to be Christians who are not.
How can we know if we are one of these? John’s reply has been constant and simple. There are three tests to measure the proof of a genuine Christian:
the truth test,
the love test,
and the moral test.
If we believe in what the Bible teaches as true, if we show the love of Jesus to others, and if our conduct has been changed and is becoming more like Jesus, then our claim to be a Christian can be proven true.
You're right -- we're talking about two different things. You are saying that according to your interpretation of John, one of the hallmarks of Christianity is to love fellow Christians.

I'm saying that, according to my interpretation of Jesus' teachings in Luke, one of the hallmarks of Christianity is to love Christians and non-Christians.

I would disagree that agapic love is directed solely towards fellow Christians, however. The self-sacrificing agape love is patterned after that of Christ's, who died for the world -- in other words, everyone in it, regardless of whether or not they accept it. We follow the example by loving people regardless of whether or not they accept it.

[Nadiine]

You're right -- we're talking about two different things. You are saying that according to your interpretation of John, one of the hallmarks of Christianity is to love fellow Christians.

I'm saying that, according to my interpretation of Jesus' teachings in Luke, one of the hallmarks of Christianity is to love Christians and non-Christians.

I would disagree that agapic love is directed solely towards fellow Christians, however. The self-sacrificing agape love is patterned after that of Christ's, who died for the world -- in other words, everyone in it, regardless of whether or not they accept it. We follow the example by loving people regardless of whether or not they accept it.
I never said agape love is ONLY directed to Christians.

I'm saying the SIGN OF A TRUE BELIEVER IS THAT THEY HAVE LOVE FOR THE FAMILY OF GOD- and that love is what the world does not have (which John in context contrasted to make that very point specifically).

The WORLD hates us - and Jesus said this several times. If the world hates us and our message, guess what, IT'S A GENUINE BELIEVER THAT WILL LOVE THE GENUINE BELIEVER.
That is a hallmark. The world has a natural disdain for Christians - oh yes, they seem all nicey at first, but just start witnessing about Christ or sin, or hell or the only way to salvation is thru Jesus.. and watch the switch.
I've seen it more times than I can count.
It raises up an anger in them and they start showing their true feelings.

It's a believer who will have TRUE LOVE for one of their own family- BECUZ THEY COME FROM THE SAME SPIRIT OF GOD.

If you don't accept that well - what can I say; it's spelled right out in the Greek there and in full context to see who he's referring to. It's a Sign of a true believer that they love their own family members in Christ - which the world does not.

[TheManeki]

The WORLD hates us - and Jesus said this several times. If the world hates us and our message, guess what, IT'S A GENUINE BELIEVER THAT WILL LOVE THE GENUINE BELIEVER.
That is a hallmark. The world has a natural disdain for Christians - oh yes, they seem all nicey at first, but just start witnessing about Christ or sin, or hell or the only way to salvation is thru Jesus.. and watch the switch.
I've seen it more times than I can count.
It raises up an anger in them and they start showing their true feelings.


Can't say I've seen that "natural disdain" or persecution. Not all witnessing techniques are equal; while I could see preaching at them regarding hellfire likely to provoke that kind of reaction (heck, telling anybody they are wrong about any kind of fundamental life assumptions provokes that reaction), becoming someone's friend and acting with the same kind of compassion, listening to them, and caringly confronting them when they are wrong seems to work well. It's a long-term way of doing thing (you have to really be their friend, not just pretend to be their friend to convert them), but it works very well. 'Course, it's hard to do, since you have to actually live your faith and not just preach it, but I like it.

[Nadiine]

Can't say I've seen that "natural disdain" or persecution. Not all witnessing techniques are equal; while I could see preaching at them regarding hellfire likely to provoke that kind of reaction (heck, telling anybody they are wrong about any kind of fundamental life assumptions provokes that reaction), becoming someone's friend and acting with the same kind of compassion, listening to them, and caringly confronting them when they are wrong seems to work well. It's a long-term way of doing thing (you have to really be their friend, not just pretend to be their friend to convert them), but it works very well. 'Course, it's hard to do, since you have to actually live your faith and not just preach it, but I like it.
Well, Paul & the other apostles preached the gospel IN LOVE - to friends and strangers.. and they were martyred. (as were some OT prophets & others).
Look at the heavy Christian persecution in the past and it's doubled today according to recent stats.

John the Baptist did the unpardonable & had the audacity to tell the King that he was committing adultery - there he went.

It doesn't have to be "hellfire" to get people on edge - and I happen to be extremely gentle in person when witnessing. I also wade into it slowly... but eventually when you get to the meat of the message, you see the changes when there's any depth involved.
Go past the "Jesus loves you" parts. :P

It's also not 'wrong' to use hellfire messages or address sin at the start either.. but I will say IF you go those routes, it MUST be done in a motive of love.
God can still use those seeds you planted.

Jesus used fear too -
Luke 12:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=12&verse=5&version=49&context=verse)
"But I will warn you whom to fear:
fear the One who, after He has killed,
has authority to cast into hell;
yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Anyways, this is all going WAYYYY off topic -
it should get back on track asap.
all in favor, say "AYE"! :thumbsup: :holy:

[kiwimac]

:)
Those are the greatest LAWS yes... but Buddha & Ghandi basically adhere to that too... so are Buddha & Ghandi "Christians" & did they bring the truth of God in their teachings?
That also doesn't define the GOD who gave those precepts.

I know what you're trying to say, but LOVE IS NOT SALVATION in Jesus Christ. He brought a gospel of salvation, it's not just "LOVE" - even the unsaved love others.
No offense to you, I think you had a good heart here.
GOd bless you!! :wave: :angel:

As it was Jesus who gave the 'two commandments' perhaps you are being a little flippant?

[chaoschristian]

If a person has never heard of Christ, does this person by default reject Christ?

They could argue that, but they'd be wrong.

If one says "I do not believe in God, or Jesus or the Holy Spirit" they cannot be a Christian, no matter how good of a person they are, or how selfless or how much they love their neighbor.

Being good doesn't get us into heaven.

I think the term "anonymous Christian" is an oxymoron.

[Nadiine]

If a person has never heard of Christ, does this person by default reject Christ?
that's a whole other thread cc.

And romans 1 covers this - ALL people have general revelation of God thru creation alone. All have his moral code within themselves for a moral compass.
Romans 2:14-15.

All may not have the same light, but all are responsible to worship God in whatever light they are given - and God is just - we're judged on knowledge we have.

Nothing I want to pursue in this thread. but there's lots of good articles in Christian sites on general & special revelation of God.

[Nadiine]

As it was Jesus who gave the 'two commandments' perhaps you are being a little flippant?
Agreeing to "love" other people doesn't mean one worships Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, which you already know.

Atheists can give to charities - does that make them "saved"? hardly.

[Time2BCounted]

If a person has never heard of Christ, does this person by default reject Christ?
I personally am of the opinion that 'no' would be the answer here, as we are stating in the definition, God doesnt hold our ignorances against us... only rejection.

I added to that part in the definition last night by the way, would you mind giving me your opinion on this?

We also agree that God holds one responsible for what they know, but He is very merciful upon all the things we may be unaware of or ignorant of. Understanding of these doctrines is not the important issue, simple agreement is however absolutely neccessary. This is bound up in the core issue of the gospel.
Central to Christianity is the gospel (literally meaning 'good news'), and the gospel is summed up in the phrase "Jesus is Lord". A person does not have to understand all that the Lord says or does.. they simply have to agree and obey. We come as we are and we learn and grow.

[kiwimac]

And yet Jesus speaks entirely in terms of 'helping others' in his picture of the Judgement in Matt 24.

[Time2BCounted]

And yet Jesus speaks entirely in terms of 'helping others' in his picture of the Judgement in Matt 24.
So we can reject that Jesus is God, give food to the poor and be saved Kiwi?

[Nadiine]

So we can reject that Jesus is God, give food to the poor and be saved Kiwi?
it would seem that's what he's saying...
What you just defined there is WORKS BASED SALVATION.
Anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Since when do we "earn" our way to God? Nothing we could do removes SIN or buys His blood.
If our works attained salvation, then it's no longer GRACE, We "worked" and God "owes" us the wage for that work.
It's a worker & boss mentality - he owes you your wages for what you do for him. It's owed, not a gift.

Worse, alot of peoples works are done in the wrong motive - Jesus teaches us that in Matt. 6.
Motive is everything.

[Gukkor]

So we can reject that Jesus is God, give food to the poor and be saved Kiwi?

I would say that if you give to the poor (or do anything else) out of genuine love and compassion, then you haven't rejected Jesus as God at all except on an intellectual level. It is often said by some that an "intellectual belief" in God is not enough for salvation. If so, then there is no reason why intellectual disbelief would be enough for damnation.

[chaoschristian]

That question was really directed at PreachersWife, but it's good to have your response too. Thank you.

I personally am of the opinion that 'no' would be the answer here, as we are stating in the definition, God doesnt hold our ignorances against us... only rejection.

I added to that part in the definition last night by the way, would you mind giving me your opinion on this?

I'm seperating out the quote so that I might respond to it:

We also agree that God holds one responsible for what they know, but He is very merciful upon all the things we may be unaware of or ignorant of.

I think Paul thought that all men were responsible for the natural law written upon their hearts and that ignorance of that law or of God's presence in Creation was no excuse. But I don't think you are talking about that. I think you are specifically referring to the finer points of doctrine, and while the sentence is a bit clunky, it would do I suppose.

Understanding of these doctrines is not the important issue, simple agreement is however absolutely neccessary.

I vehemently oppose this. Belief in and agreement with correct doctrine is not a requisition for salvation. I presume you are speaking in terms of salvation here since this directly follows what God will hold one responsible for.

This is bound up in the core issue of the gospel.
Central to Christianity is the gospel (literally meaning 'good news'), and the gospel is summed up in the phrase "Jesus is Lord".

Is the Gospel that Jesus is Lord, or is the Gospel that the Kingdom of God is at hand, and that all men my become fully realized Kingdom citizens by faith through grace in Jesus Christ as Lord? I think your summation is too brief and too narrow.

Jesus as a first-century Jewish prophet announcing and inaugurating the Kingdom of God, summoning others to join him, warning of the consequences if they did not, doing all this in symbolic actions, and indicating in symbolic actions, and in cryptic and coded sayings, that he believed he was Israel's messiah, the one through whom they true God would accomplish his decisive purpose. ~N.T. Wright. The Meaning of Jesus, pp 50

The full Gospel is not just Jesus, it is also the Kingdom of God, and not just the Kingdom of God, but that the Kingdom of God is here and now and available to all men.

A person does not have to understand all that the Lord says or does.. they simply have to agree and obey. We come as we are and we learn and grow.

Again, if you speaking in terms of salvation, then you are off base. Salvation is not dependent upon our agreement or obedience. Does one always need to be in perfect agreement with God's will to be saved? Does one must be perfectly obedient to be saved? If true, then God have mercy on us all!

[chaoschristian]

So we can reject that Jesus is God, give food to the poor and be saved Kiwi?

I think you have a misconception of what's being said.

Remember, this line of the conversation is taking place in the context of the concept of the anonymous Christian.

That concept does not hold that those who knowingly reject Christ are still saved, although that's what folks are saying it says.

The concepts states that those who are unaware of Christ may still be considered Christian if in their character, attitude and action they reflect the light of Christ into the world.

I probably really messed that up. Stumpjumpers has a much better handle on it than I do.

[Time2BCounted]

I think you have a misconception of what's being said.

Remember, this line of the conversation is taking place in the context of the concept of the anonymous Christian.

That concept does not hold that those who knowingly reject Christ are still saved, although that's what folks are saying it says.

The concepts states that those who are unaware of Christ may still be considered Christian if in their character, attitude and action they reflect the light of Christ into the world.

I probably really messed that up. Stumpjumpers has a much better handle on it than I do.
i think with this explanation, you and i at least may be on the same page CC.

I must admit 'anonymous christian' puts a bitter taste in my mouth though. It tends, at least with me, to have a connotation of one who doesnt or wont proclaim his faith. One who is ashamed of Christ. Could be a semantic thing depending on how someone is meaning this, but i certainly see where it could apply to someone who just wont confess with his mouth and is ashamed.

[chaoschristian]

Any chance of my questions in posts 497 (http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39587476&postcount=497) and 498 (http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39587517&postcount=498) being answered?

[PreachersWife2004]

i think with this explanation, you and i at least may be on the same page CC.

I must admit 'anonymous christian' puts a bitter taste in my mouth though. It tends, at least with me, to have a connotation of one who doesnt or wont proclaim his faith. One who is ashamed of Christ. Could be a semantic thing depending on how someone is meaning this, but i certainly see where it could apply to someone who just wont confess with his mouth and is ashamed.

That is EXACTLY why I believe it is an oxymoron. I don't how you could be a Christian and yet be an anonymous Christian. Even the ones who were being persecuted and HAD to hide their Christianity were still proud to declare it, albeit secretly.

[Nadiine]

why am I not surprised to see all this? Now anybody who passes a street bum $1.00 under the bridge is SAVED.
:doh:

That would REALLY make the bible contradictory when it says that the way to eternal life is Narrow, and FEW FIND IT - while the road to destruction is broad, and MANY TAKE IT.

Everybody does "GOOD" things, it's not salvation.
In fact, scripture also says that
it's impossible to please God without Faith.

People seem to be confusing reward with salvation.

[Nadiine]

That is EXACTLY why I believe it is an oxymoron. I don't how you could be a Christian and yet be an anonymous Christian. Even the ones who were being persecuted and HAD to hide their Christianity were still proud to declare it, albeit secretly.
The bible tells us that we must CONFESS HIM with out mouth for salvation.
Believe and confess.
If we confess HIM before men, He confesses US before the FAther.
It's not hidden under a rock - we proclaim Him openly.
As for Christians under persecution, yes, they must hide; but they unite as they can. It is an oxymoron.

[chaoschristian]

i think with this explanation, you and i at least may be on the same page CC.

I must admit 'anonymous christian' puts a bitter taste in my mouth though. It tends, at least with me, to have a connotation of one who doesnt or wont proclaim his faith. One who is ashamed of Christ. Could be a semantic thing depending on how someone is meaning this, but i certainly see where it could apply to someone who just wont confess with his mouth and is ashamed.

I think you misunderstand.

It has nothing to do with someone who 'just won't' or is 'ashamed' as that implies awareness.

It has everything to do with the millions upon millions of people who have no awareness whatsoever of Christ, Christianity, the Gospel or the Bible, and yet still reflect the light of Christ.

I hesitate to go further, because I'm not as fully up to speed on this as stump is.

[chaoschristian]

That is EXACTLY why I believe it is an oxymoron. I don't how you could be a Christian and yet be an anonymous Christian. Even the ones who were being persecuted and HAD to hide their Christianity were still proud to declare it, albeit secretly.

I think you are misunderstanding the concept at hand.

[Time2BCounted]

CC i took what you said, with the exception of one thing because i believe the context pretty much states what youre saying, and i redid that section making small adjustments based on your advice... Hows this look?


God only holds one responsible for what they know. He is very merciful upon all the things we may be unaware of or ignorant of. Understanding of these doctrines is not the important issue, simple agreement, regardless of being able to understand, is however absolutely neccessary.
Central to Christianity is the gospel (literally meaning 'good news'), and the gospel is summed up in the phrase "Jesus is Lord" and "the Kingdom of God is at hand", and that all men my become fully realized Kingdom citizens by faith through grace in Jesus Christ as Lord. A person does not have to understand all that the Lord says or does.. they simply have to agree and obey, as opposed to rejecting or choosing not to believe. We come as we are and we learn and grow.

[Nadiine]

i think with this explanation, you and i at least may be on the same page CC.

I must admit 'anonymous christian' puts a bitter taste in my mouth though. It tends, at least with me, to have a connotation of one who doesnt or wont proclaim his faith. One who is ashamed of Christ. Could be a semantic thing depending on how someone is meaning this, but i certainly see where it could apply to someone who just wont confess with his mouth and is ashamed.
This is most likely linked with Revelation 21 "the cowardly or fearful"
Revelation 21:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=8&version=49&context=verse)
" But for the cowardly/fearful and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars,
their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Greek: deilos (from deos (dread))
1) timid, fearful
???

It does say that God doesn't give us a spirit of "fear" - maybe they have another spirit other than God's?

[Time2BCounted]

it would seem that's what he's saying...
What you just defined there is WORKS BASED SALVATION.
Anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Since when do we "earn" our way to God? Nothing we could do removes SIN or buys His blood.
If our works attained salvation, then it's no longer GRACE, We "worked" and God "owes" us the wage for that work.
It's a worker & boss mentality - he owes you your wages for what you do for him. It's owed, not a gift.

Worse, alot of peoples works are done in the wrong motive - Jesus teaches us that in Matt. 6.
Motive is everything.
I tend to agree ;)

[Time2BCounted]

Any chance of my questions in posts 497 (http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39587476&postcount=497) and 498 (http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39587517&postcount=498) being answered?
Yes i will

I dont see the need in this definition. With things as they stand i believe we have a pretty accurate description without having to refer to nicene and nonnicene in this definition. Can one be a non-nicene and be a 'christian'? I personally believe it depends on why they are non-nicene, but we arent trying to clarify here what is nicene and what is nonnicene, but rather how to define christianity according acceptable to biblical and historical standard. This will aid in understanding what IS a christian teaching and what is not.

[Hentenza]

I think you misunderstand.

It has nothing to do with someone who 'just won't' or is 'ashamed' as that implies awareness.

It has everything to do with the millions upon millions of people who have no awareness whatsoever of Christ, Christianity, the Gospel or the Bible, and yet still reflect the light of Christ.

I hesitate to go further, because I'm not as fully up to speed on this as stump is.

Hi CC,

I am having a problem with the concept of an "anonymous Christian" because the bible tells us differently. In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle: everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

The problem is, “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own heart, and instead decide to worship a “god” of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.

I believe that in order for someone to be a "Christian", "Jesus is God" is essential. I am not here to judge who will be saved and who won't. That is God's job.:)

[Gukkor]

why am I not surprised to see all this? Now anybody who passes a street bum $1.00 under the bridge is SAVED.
:doh:

That would REALLY make the bible contradictory when it says that the way to eternal life is Narrow, and FEW FIND IT - while the road to destruction is broad, and MANY TAKE IT.

Everybody does "GOOD" things, it's not salvation.
In fact, scripture also says that
it's impossible to please God without Faith.

People seem to be confusing reward with salvation.

Hehe, shouldn't surprise you coming from me, at least. I'm openly UR and have been for some time now. :P

[Time2BCounted]

This is most likely linked with Revelation 21 "the cowardly or fearful"
Revelation 21:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=8&version=49&context=verse)
" But for the cowardly/fearful and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars,
their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Greek: deilos (from deos (dread))
1) timid, fearful
???

It does say that God doesn't give us a spirit of "fear" - maybe they have another spirit other than God's?
I have to come to the same conclusion in this respect. I do understand what CC is saying and agree there are some who are ignorant of Christ w2ho are saved, but this would be rare imho if for no other reason than the fact of human nature and the fact that most who are NOT ignorant reject Him. As you point out, it is a very narrow road and there are few who find it

[Nadiine]

Hehe, shouldn't surprise you coming from me, at least. I'm openly UR and have been for some time now. :P
Well you can choose whatever you want, but the Bible has clear statements on what salvation is and how to attain it.

I don't know why anyone would embrace a doctrine that the bible refutes plainly elsewhere? What's the point?
It doesn't even logically fit into the gospel message of what one must do to be saved.
'works' aren't BELIEF unto FAITH in the one God -- works are works (and often done in wrong/selfish motive).
:tutu:

[Nadiine]

I have to come to the same conclusion in this respect. I do understand what CC is saying and agree there are some who are ignorant of Christ w2ho are saved, but this would be rare imho if for no other reason than the fact of human nature and the fact that most who are NOT ignorant reject Him. As you point out, it is a very narrow road and there are few who find it
The 'ignorant' ones as I would refer to them in fitting CC's unaware soul... are those people who live in remote areas or areas not yet reached by missionaries/tv/radio etc.
Those are the ones that wouldn't have the full knowledge of revelation. But post crucifixion with the scriptures given, a very large amount can know.

I don't accept that 'people with a good heart' are just 'SAVED" -- one reason why I say that, is I once had a neighbor lady who I became close friends with in 1996-8.
She had a really loving husband & 2 little girls - the MODEL family. She would give you the shirt off her back even tho they didn't have much money at that time.
In chatting with her, she noticed I was playing an RPG video game on my puter :sorry: :blush:
that got her on the subject of evil... the minute I started talking to her about Christianity, her whole demeanor changed. She got tense and had an angry look on her face immediately.
That was my cue to back off & go slow. I kindly talked about who I believe God to be, and that Jesus is the only way to the Father... well, she'd have none of that...
She believed all "Good people" are good enough for God & Christianity is ridiculous. I had NEVER ever seen that side of her until God was brought up. I had no idea or ever seen her sound negative.
She was a saint as far as I was concerned... but that day told me alot.

She wanted no part of the Bible God and was rebellious against Him even tho she said she believed in God. so contrary to what some here would claim, "nice people" aren't automatically saved.
I know other friends I can lift up as being the same way; mild mannered & sweet till God comes up.

[Angel4Truth]

Mark 8:38. "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.''

[Time2BCounted]

The 'ignorant' ones as I would refer to them in fitting CC's unaware soul... are those people who live in remote areas or areas not yet reached by missionaries/tv/radio etc.
Those are the ones that wouldn't have the full knowledge of revelation. But post crucifixion with the scriptures given, a very large amount can know.

I don't accept that 'people with a good heart' are just 'SAVED" -- one reason why I say that, is I once had a neighbor lady who I became close friends with in 1996-8.
She had a really loving husband & 2 little girls - the MODEL family. She would give you the shirt off her back even tho they didn't have much money at that time.
In chatting with her, she noticed I was playing an RPG video game on my puter :sorry: :blush:
that got her on the subject of evil... the minute I started talking to her about Christianity, her whole demeanor changed. She got tense and had an angry look on her face immediately.
That was my cue to back off & go slow. I kindly talked about who I believe God to be, and that Jesus is the only way to the Father... well, she'd have none of that...
She believed all "Good people" are good enough for God & Christianity is ridiculous. I had NEVER ever seen that side of her until God was brought up. I had no idea or ever seen her sound negative.
She was a saint as far as I was concerned... but that day told me alot.

She wanted no part of the Bible God and was rebellious against Him even tho she said she believed in God. so contrary to what some here would claim, "nice people" aren't automatically saved.
I know other friends I can lift up as being the same way; mild mannered & sweet till God comes up.
I agree 100 percent

What you are saying here may possibly be said in just one verse of scripture too...

Matthew 19:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

[Time2BCounted]

Mark 8:38. "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.''
Amen Angel
Hi there sis its good to see you

[Nadiine]

Mark 8:38. "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.''
Hey, notice that... 'AND MY WORDS'. His TEACHINGS, His truths. :doh:
If we're ashamed of those and Him... interesting, I never noticed that before.

Kinda ties in with King David praising God and saying I LOVE YOUR LAW. How he meditated on it night and day. If we LOVE His words... kool, thanks for that, i like learning new stuff.

:amen: Time2B - we call people "good", but they really aren't; not in light of God's expectations. Not even close. We can only know what's on the outside too - not their hearts.

[chaoschristian]

CC i took what you said, with the exception of one thing because i believe the context pretty much states what youre saying, and i redid that section making small adjustments based on your advice... Hows this look?



God only holds one responsible for what they know. He is very merciful upon all the things we may be unaware of or ignorant of. Understanding of these doctrines is not the important issue, simple agreement, regardless of being able to understand, is however absolutely neccessary.


Central to Christianity is the gospel (literally meaning 'good news'), and the gospel is summed up in the phrase "Jesus is Lord" and "the Kingdom of God is at hand", and that all men my become fully realized Kingdom citizens by faith through grace in Jesus Christ as Lord. A person does not have to understand all that the Lord says or does.. they simply have to agree and obey, as opposed to rejecting or choosing not to believe. We come as we are and we learn and grow.









Honestly, I wish you would revert it back. You seem to have failed to grasp the import of what I was originally saying and at the same time make things a bit worse by simply grabbing onto a few words and wedging them it.

[chaoschristian]

Yes i will

I dont see the need in this definition. With things as they stand i believe we have a pretty accurate description without having to refer to nicene and nonnicene in this definition. Can one be a non-nicene and be a 'christian'? I personally believe it depends on why they are non-nicene, but we arent trying to clarify here what is nicene and what is nonnicene, but rather how to define christianity according acceptable to biblical and historical standard. This will aid in understanding what IS a christian teaching and what is not.

OK, I'll accept that as an answer to 498. Now what about the questions in 497?

[Nadiine]

Yes i will

I dont see the need in this definition. With things as they stand i believe we have a pretty accurate description without having to refer to nicene and nonnicene in this definition. Can one be a non-nicene and be a 'christian'? I personally believe it depends on why they are non-nicene, but we arent trying to clarify here what is nicene and what is nonnicene, but rather how to define christianity according acceptable to biblical and historical standard. This will aid in understanding what IS a christian teaching and what is not.
In thinking about this, I think you made the right decision, becuz choosing NonNicene is directly REJECTING the Nicene. The very thing ignorance (which is being Neutral) wouldn't do.
It's taking opposition against the Nicene.
:thumbsup:

[Time2BCounted]

OK, I'll accept that as an answer to 498. Now what about the questions in 497?
here are your questions CC


will the use of faith icons be effected?
will who gets to answer questions in certain forums be effected?
will the labeling of certain forums and sections be effected?
will the placement of certain congregational forums be effected?Who will get to decide all of the above? And how will it be determined who the who is?


As far as the first quesiton is concerned, heres what i stated in a new thread in 'wiki/rules discussions'

3) What about snatching icons when this is all over, and what about nonchristian staff?

There have been a few imho, who have been feamongering. We have stated repeatedly, and i will clarify now, NO ONE is interested in saying one cannot choose the icon of their choice. Frankly if a satanist were to take a christian icon, i would thank God for the advertizement.
Also let me say that I have seen and heard, and had some experience with the nonchristian staff here, most notably people of the quality of Ravenscape, who i personally feel is wonderfully fair and honest and good at what she has volunteered to do. I think she is perfect for her position and wouldnt trade her off where she sits for anything.
This board itself is now redefined as a place of sociallizing and outreach for christian and nonchristian. It is only fair and right then that people be elected to their positions based on character, not religion or creed, unless of course it is a congregational forum, in which case all factors should apply.

So let me reiterate, we do not want to snatch icons, we do not want unchristian staff removed OR attacked. We simply want to be defined as we have been defined biblically and historicly, and we want the definition to be an accurate reflection of these standards.

In the muslim religion, bhuddist, whatever, every religion is defined by its belief. We simply want to be able to say, YES this is christian teaching, or NO this is not christian teaching, based on the Word of God, the bible.

There are some of you who may be of another religion... would you accept being defined improperly in such a way as to attribute things to your religion that are just not true?

Please understand OUR position. We cannot ethicly stand for a compromise of what christianity is and isnt. We are compelled by our God and cannot compromise HIS standard as it is defined in the scriptures.



So i dont see where anything will be effected other than our ability to properly say 'yes this is a christian teaching' or 'no this is not a christian teaching'. As of NOW it is the christian who is being forced to compromised and censored and imho this is wrong to force upon us definitions which would allow just anyone to teach anything and claim to be christian. We need a standard by which we can tell seekers "NO this isnt a christian teaching".




Nadiine,
God bless you :thumbsup:

[Vambram]

I am still standing here with y'all, as we stand together with some cross-denominational unity while trying to work out a historical and scripturally true definition of "Christianity."

This has been, and probably will be still, a relatively long process, as compared to how stuff goes on internet forums and message boards. However, I have faith that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is, and shall continue, to bless the efforts of HIS people while we work out this definition and proposal for a definition of scripturally accurate and historically true Christianity. :hug: :)

[Time2BCounted]

I am still standing here with y'all, as we stand together with some cross-denominational unity while trying to work out a historical and scripturally true definition of "Christianity."

This has been, and probably will be still, a relatively long process, as compared to how stuff goes on internet forums and message boards. However, I have faith that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is, and shall continue, to bless the efforts of HIS people while we work out this definition and proposal for a definition of scripturally accurate and historically true Christianity. :hug: :)
Brother youre a great blessing, and we love and thank you for your efforts helping us.

One thing we need do i believe, is bring more people in on this for opinion. Anyone knowing someone from other forums who would be willing to give us opinion, please refer them to the opening post in the poll in the main forum, to see where we currently are.


This is a request to all who are helping on this

[Melethiel]

There's nothing stopping you from telling people "this is not a Christian teaching" right now. People do that in the Theology forums day in and day out.

[PreachersWife2004]

There's nothing stopping you from telling people "this is not a Christian teaching" right now. People do that in the Theology forums day in and day out.

I'm not so sure about that, Mel.

I just finished reading a report where someone said "You can't be a Christian if you don't believe in the Trinity".

No one has ruled on it yet, but I the report stated that they thought there was some rule that you couldn't tell someone they weren't Christian based on their theology. If this is the case, I say WHAT?! But that's a different thread for a different day.

I guess it will depend on the ruling that is made on the report.

[Nadiine]

I'm not so sure about that, Mel.

I just finished reading a report where someone said "You can't be a Christian if you don't believe in the Trinity".

No one has ruled on it yet, but I the report stated that they thought there was some rule that you couldn't tell someone they weren't Christian based on their theology. If this is the case, I say WHAT?! But that's a different thread for a different day.

I guess it will depend on the ruling that is made on the report.
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to this kind of stuff, but... I think some of it depends on the separate rules made for different sections of this forum that govern their area.

I've said that a certain doctrine someone posted was "heretical" and it wasn't a violation. I think it's when you attack the person directly - like if I said "you're a heretic". That's probly a violation.

I think we're allowed to say more now, and we should be - those rules a few mos. ago were way too restrictive to even properly debate with. People left here becuz they were so frustrated having their hands tied behind their backs.
So I have seen some good changes here - not many, and not enough, but... that's a whole other thread. lol

[Melethiel]

I'm not so sure about that, Mel.

I just finished reading a report where someone said "You can't be a Christian if you don't believe in the Trinity".

No one has ruled on it yet, but I the report stated that they thought there was some rule that you couldn't tell someone they weren't Christian based on their theology. If this is the case, I say WHAT?! But that's a different thread for a different day.

I guess it will depend on the ruling that is made on the report.
I haven't read reports yet, but Nadiine's got the gist of it. You can say "this doctrine is heretical" but you can't say "you're a heretic."

[PreachersWife2004]

It would seem that the person who made that post did so trying to "wake people up" so-to-speak because he believes there is a movement afoot to try to make something like that a rule.

Could he possibly be referring to this thread?

I guess I'll have to go look at the reported thread again in Non-Denom.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming........

[Melethiel]

It would seem that the person who made that post did so trying to "wake people up" so-to-speak because he believes there is a movement afoot to try to make something like that a rule.

Could he possibly be referring to this thread?

I guess I'll have to go look at the reported thread again in Non-Denom.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming........
Ah, it was in non-denom? I have no idea then. My section has different rules fitted for a debate environment.

[PreachersWife2004]

Someone said that the rule that you couldn't call someone a non-Christian because of their theology had been taken off with the changes that Erwin made. I can buy that, and hope it's true.

The post that has been reported seems to be a response to what's happening here with the definition of Christianity, even though the poster is incorrect that it would be a rule that one must believe in the trinity to be a Christian. Or at least I think he is.

I've read through so many different variants of the definition that my head started spinning!

[Albion]

I've entered this thread far too late to have any idea how it has progressed. Frankly, I doubt that redefinitions will work out, but I tried fiddling with the original suggestion.


Imho, this even goes so far as to pretty much define what i understand Erwin's vision to be. Here is what i am presenting and we can kick it around some.
Definition of a Christian

Foru.ms is a socially stimulating Christian-based online community that is open to everyone.

The foundations of ForU.ms are based on Christian principles. Nearly every major church or denomination of Christianity is represented here. As an outreach to the world, the hurting, the lonely, and those in need, ALL who are Christian or non-Christian are welcome here for stimulating fellowship and discussion.

For the purposes of clarifying what "Christianity" is, Foru.ms uses the following definition of a "Christian".

1. "Christian" defined

A Christian, simply put, is a disciple of Jesus Christ:
Acts 11:26 (NIV) "The disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
What is a disciple? He is one who believes and follows a particular way or belief. Christianity has historically worshiped Jesus as savior of mankind and the Lord God, God being a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which are one being.

2. Basic Christian Belief

There are many denominations involved together in outreach at ForU.ms. Because of this, there are varying opinions on what are essentials of the faith, and what are nonessentials, but as a whole the Christian belief does believe, adhere to, and follow certain beliefs that are consdered to be essential. For example, most would agree that baptism is a sacrament or ordinance to be received by all Christians. What, however, baptism signifies is not agreed to by all disciples.

The following are the some of the core essential beliefs of Christianity...

One God. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
This God is a trinity
This Trinity is made up of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and that they are ONE God in 3 Persons.

The Nicene Creed asserts the principle in the following way:
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from His home in heaven above, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
Christians acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
Christians look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)

Christians acknowledge the divine inspiration of the Bible and recognize it as the infallable Word of God, as it was penned in the original manuscripts.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

In short, Christianity teaches that we have all sinned. We have all fallen short of the glory and righteousness of God. We are told that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus the Christ or Messiah. We believe that God loved us so much that He gave His Son for us. His Son came willingly and chose to die for our sins, paying the price for our sins, so that we can escape death and hell, and have eternal life. It is by God's grace, and nothing of ourselves, that we are saved. He allows us to appropriate Jesus' sacrifice through Faith.

We are told in the book of Acts that GOD bought the church with His own blood. From the time of Thomas the Apostle to now, worshipers of God in the Christian faith recognize and worship Jesus as God.

3. The Christian lifestyle

Christianity teaches that without love, we cannot be saved. Those who live in Faith, will produce works of Mercy. We are called to forgive men their trespasses against us in the same way that we desire God to have mercy on US. Jesus said "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

While Christians firmly believe in meekness, discipleship does not mean timidity. AChristian would feed, and clothe and shelter his enemy and show genuine compassion to all, in acts of nobility, kindness, and love.

Our prayer would be that you too believe, for today is the day of salvation, and no one is guaranteed a tomorrow in this life.

[Nadiine]

Someone said that the rule that you couldn't call someone a non-Christian because of their theology had been taken off with the changes that Erwin made. I can buy that, and hope it's true.

The post that has been reported seems to be a response to what's happening here with the definition of Christianity, even though the poster is incorrect that it would be a rule that one must believe in the trinity to be a Christian. Or at least I think he is.

I've read through so many different variants of the definition that my head started spinning!
I know what you mean - where do you even begin? lol
Things do need to change, but with all the changes going on, i'm HOPING mods take this into consideration to realize that alot of people are confused about the rules and guidelines that are spinning around.

We're all going thru this together, so hopefully some extra grace will be given from everybody.
(that's not saying tho that flagrant violations of rude flaming are ok! it's not, and we all know what personal attacks are). Rule stuff should just be given some mercies till it's all settled. (imho of course) :angel:

[Nadiine]

It would seem that the person who made that post did so trying to "wake people up" so-to-speak because he believes there is a movement afoot to try to make something like that a rule.

Could he possibly be referring to this thread?

I guess I'll have to go look at the reported thread again in Non-Denom.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming........
I'm in the ND threads... and the person I think you're referring to is mad becuz we're trying to remove unorthodoxy from the main board so that stuff can only be discussed in a subforum for NonND's.
I'm quite tired personally of the few nontrinitarians attacking Jesus' Deity every other day. :mad: :swoon:

[Catherineanne]

:)
Those are the greatest LAWS yes... but Buddha & Ghandi basically adhere to that too... so are Buddha & Ghandi "Christians" & did they bring the truth of God in their teachings?
That also doesn't define the GOD who gave those precepts.

I know what you're trying to say, but LOVE IS NOT SALVATION in Jesus Christ. He brought a gospel of salvation, it's not just "LOVE" - even the unsaved love others.
No offense to you, I think you had a good heart here.
GOd bless you!! :wave: :angel:

Hiya Nadine

It is only if you selectively quote from Scripture and distort its meaning that you can conclude that other faiths do not enter eternity. There is no Scripture that says so, and there is plenty that says the opposite.

Matthew 25, for example, might make you reconsider your suggestion that the Buddha and Gandhi are condemned to an eternity without God.

I think such a position inconceivable, against God in Christ. :wave:

[Catherineanne]

It's far from "presumptuous" to know the mind of God -WHEN HE GAVE YOU 66 BOOKS TO KNOW HIM BY.

This is certainly the beginning of the relationship. :wave:

It is not by the book that we know the mind of God. It is through relationship with Christ, and with the Holy Spirit.

Same as with anyone else. The biography can teach us a great deal, but who, having met the real person, would rely on the book for information. And, more contentiously, perhaps, for this part of the Forum, who, having met the real person and learned of his love, mercy and compassion, would believe the nonsense in the book about visiting the sins of the fathers unto the third generation. Not me. :wave:

[Catherineanne]

But there are many unbelievers who live by this precept. How can they be Christians?

Matthew 25. :wave:

[Catherineanne]

There is ONE WAY TO THE FATHER, THRU JESUS CHRIST ALONE. LOVE isn't the way to salvation, CHRIST - God incarnate is. LOVE is the byproduct of that genuine salvation.
And love is found is truth (of God).


You are right. There is only one way to the Father, which is Christ.

However, the Bible does not say that there is no other way to God.

Sometimes it is important to read what is not there, as well as what is. The Bible does not say that only Christians enter eternity, only that Christians have unique access to God as Father.

[Catherineanne]

I must admit 'anonymous christian' puts a bitter taste in my mouth though. It tends, at least with me, to have a connotation of one who doesnt or wont proclaim his faith. One who is ashamed of Christ. Could be a semantic thing depending on how someone is meaning this, but i certainly see where it could apply to someone who just wont confess with his mouth and is ashamed.

I fail to see how someone who is ashamed of Christ can be regarded as a Christian.

Perhaps there is a bit of the fundie in all of us, deep down. ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ (Lord, have mercy!!)

However, to redress the balance, I remember the words of the blessed Francis, who was most certainly not ashamed of Christ. He said, 'proclaim the Gospel at all times. If absolutely necessary, use words.'

In other words, be a Christian first, second and third, and leave the actions to speak for you. They are likely to be far more articulate. :)

[Nadiine]

You are right. There is only one way to the Father, which is Christ.

However, the Bible does not say that there is no other way to God.

Sometimes it is important to read what is not there, as well as what is. The Bible does not say that only Christians enter eternity, only that Christians have unique access to God as Father.
:eek: Let's follow this thru systematically --
The Father IS GOD -- so since there is no other way to the Father (GOD), it is directly saying THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO GOD than thru Christ Jesus alone.

HE is the narrow path. Christ is GOD. (2nd of the Trinity) - He is also worshipped by us.

What is a Christian? A follower/disciple of Jesus Christ who came to earth to "show us the way" to the Father.
HE IS THE BRIDGE.

John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=49&context=verse)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life;
no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=4&verse=12&version=49&context=verse)
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Can I ask you what other ways there are to God? Can you specify those ways for us?

[PreachersWife2004]

There will be no other faiths besides Christianity in heaven. The bible makes that abundantly clear on several occasions.

Jesus speaks of the narrow way - what some are trying to do here is make the way to heaven wide. My passage under my signature ALSO speaks volumes towards how one gets to heaven. It's not through good works. It's not through being a great guy, or working for peace.

I'm sorry but I do believe Ghandi and Muhammed will be in hell, unless they somehow changed their whole line of thinking and stopped rejecting Christ.

And no, Matthew 25 doesn't make me rethink that, either. The parables only serve as examples that our faith brings out good works. But of course, as people have stated, it's easy to take one passage or section of the bible and twist it around. Again, Jesus says on several occasions that HE is the way to heaven.

Those that are not believers in Jesus will not be in heaven. Just because we can't fathom the idea of hell, doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't mean that people don't spend their eternities there.

God lives outside of our bounds of reality. We really need to stop bending and conforming Him to meet our expectations and start bending and conforming ourselves to meet HIS expectations.

[chaoschristian]

PreachersWife, Nadiien, et al:

The Way to God is Jesus, correct?

[Albion]

You are right. There is only one way to the Father, which is Christ.

However, the Bible does not say that there is no other way to God.

I just cannot agree that it is sound thinking to make fundamental decisions on what is NOT said, on an absence of information, while disregarding the apparent meaning of what IS said.

But the bigger point may be that if you are right, everyone who asked about salvation in the NT and was told "Christ" was intentionally being misinformed. That makes the Word of God to be intentionally engaged in teaching error.

This alone, IMO, casts serious doubt upon the "other ways" theory.

[PreachersWife2004]

Yes, Chaos. That is correct. Look at my passage, John 14:6. There are many other passages that repeat this.

[Albion]

The theological revisionism that is being presented here is that Christ saves but that all those who don't know Christ may also be saved...because of what Christ did for them. That is to say, He alone could reconcile God to Man, but non-Christians may be the beneficiaries of His sacrifice, even if they don't accept Him.

In the narrowest and most technical sense, one could tease this idea out of the words of scripture, but I believe that this mocks scripture. The NT's teachings again and again point to one way, not just to one name, as the answer to the question of how salvation comes.

[PreachersWife2004]

The Rich Young Man

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23780d)] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23780e)]"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"
28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23790f)] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

[PreachersWife2004]

John 8:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=8&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

[chaoschristian]

Jesus is The Way to God. That's established and very orthodox thinking.

Next question then is: what's the way to Jesus?

[PreachersWife2004]

Romans 10:17 (New International Version)

17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

[Nadiine]

There will be no other faiths besides Christianity in heaven. The bible makes that abundantly clear on several occasions.

Jesus speaks of the narrow way - what some are trying to do here is make the way to heaven wide. My passage under my signature ALSO speaks volumes towards how one gets to heaven. It's not through good works. It's not through being a great guy, or working for peace.

I'm sorry but I do believe Ghandi and Muhammed will be in hell, unless they somehow changed their whole line of thinking and stopped rejecting Christ.

And no, Matthew 25 doesn't make me rethink that, either. The parables only serve as examples that our faith brings out good works. But of course, as people have stated, it's easy to take one passage or section of the bible and twist it around. Again, Jesus says on several occasions that HE is the way to heaven.

Those that are not believers in Jesus will not be in heaven. Just because we can't fathom the idea of hell, doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't mean that people don't spend their eternities there.

God lives outside of our bounds of reality. We really need to stop bending and conforming Him to meet our expectations and start bending and conforming ourselves to meet HIS expectations.
:amen:
[generally speaking]:
One thing I think is SO arrogant in people's thinking about "who gets into heaven" (ie. everybody that does a few good deeds here or there - which is everybody) - is this: THEY DIDN'T SACRIFICE THEIR LIFE AND DIE for anybody". Jesus did. So since it's HIS LIFE that was laid down, I think it's real rude and arrogant to sit there on the coattails of HIS suffering and death, to decide that just 'everybody is good enough to make it into eternal life'.

Who are you to go against what is testified of God in the Bible? What God said about heaven & hell, why people go there, AND HOW TO ESCAPE THAT FATE.

Also, it's not YOUR creation - it's not YOUR heaven or Restoration of it all. IT'S GOD'S. Who are you to decide that just everyone arbitrarily enters His domain??

You can easily turn it around to say that of my position, but I would then refer you TO THE BIBLE that spells out everything I'm claiming. I'm reading THOSE words and they tell me quite plainly who He is, what's in store for mankind, that God provided a way to bypass eternal judgment and reside with Him thru eternity -
and that it entails obedience on our part. Not superficial belief that God exists & in a few of Jesus' teachings... like Ghandi had some good teachings. Salvation isn't about philosophy.

It's not up to us to use the bible to create a god and kingdom that we prefer based on what benefits US so we can have the best of both worlds.

[chaoschristian]

Romans 10:17 (New International Version)

17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

So The Way to Jesus is to hear the message and the message is the word of Christ.

What does it mean to hear?

What is the word of Christ?

[Nadiine]

So The Way to Jesus is to hear the message and the message is the word of Christ.

What does it mean to hear?

What is the word of Christ?
Why don't YOU do the work & dig into the bible, and you tell us instead of sitting back and demanding our answers to your inquisitions?

[Nadiine]

Somebody needs to make a smiley of a dog jumping thru hoops. ^_^

[LilLamb219]

So The Way to Jesus is to hear the message and the message is the word of Christ.

What does it mean to hear?

What is the word of Christ?

You might want to start a new thread for this.

[PreachersWife2004]

So what consensus has been reached, if any, on this matter?

Chaos, while I appreciate your questions, I've been around the block many many times and can't help but feel like I'm being set up for some personal joke or trick question. If that's not your intent, fine, but that's the general impression I get here.

Like I've said several times here and and in the past, we don't need to understand everything God does to make it true. Yes, it's hard to fathom people in hell suffering, but if you really took that to the next step, why would God even create a world that he knew was going to be sinful, and where he knew not all would be saved? Why would God allow his one and only son to be sacrificed when God himself could just say the words and *poof*, everyone would be saved?

God doesn't have to fit our logic. That's why he's God and we're not.

[chaoschristian]

Why don't YOU do the work & dig into the bible, and you tell us instead of sitting back and demanding our answers to your inquisitions?

I am asking questions in order to understand.

What I can't do is answer for you.

If you don't want to be understood, then remain silent.

[chaoschristian]

Chaos, while I appreciate your questions, I've been around the block many many times and can't help but feel like I'm being set up for some personal joke or trick question. If that's not your intent, fine, but that's the general impression I get here.

I am leading you along, but only so that I can understand where you're coming from. That's all. No jokes, no tricks.

[PreachersWife2004]

I am leading you along, but only so that I can understand where you're coming from. That's all. No jokes, no tricks.

I personally would much prefer if you just said what was on your mind.

I don't like a-ha, gotcha moments at my expense, if you know what I mean.

Plus, I'm not always the best spokesperson for Christianity, either.

[Time2BCounted]

I am leading you along, but only so that I can understand where you're coming from. That's all. No jokes, no tricks.


So whatcha want to ask CC?

If it pertains to the topic we can do it here, if not start a thread in here.

Do you have your debate ready by the way?

What do you say we debate the fate of those who deny Christ and / or reject God's word?

Would you mind if i start that thread here in the debate section?

[chaoschristian]

So whatcha want to ask CC?

Questions asked.

Here's the string:

Q1. What is the way to God?

A1. Jesus

Q2. What is the way to Jesus?

Q2. Awaiting response.

That's as far as I've gotten thus far.

This line of questioning is specifically related to the proposal at hand.

Do you have your debate ready by the way?

What do you say we debate the fate of those who deny Christ and / or reject God's word?

Would you mind if i start that thread here in the debate section?

Not so much a debate, although I'm sure that will happen, as an attempt at dialogue.

I've posted it in WWMC (http://foru.ms/t6248585-an-open-dialogue-on-the-nature-of-scriptures.html#post39669878) and cross-posted here in the CCF debate subforum.

Just did it as a matter of fact.

[chaoschristian]

I personally would much prefer if you just said what was on your mind.

I don't like a-ha, gotcha moments at my expense, if you know what I mean.

Plus, I'm not always the best spokesperson for Christianity, either.

There's no aha gotcha coming though.

Right now I want to listen more and talk less.

And while you may not be the best spokesperson for Christianity, you are the only spokesperson for you.

[Time2BCounted]

Questions asked.

Here's the string:

Q1. What is the way to God?

A1. Jesus

Q2. What is the way to Jesus?

Q2. Awaiting response.

That's as far as I've gotten thus far.

This line of questioning is specifically related to the proposal at hand.



Not so much a debate, although I'm sure that will happen, as an attempt at dialogue.

I've posted it in WWMC (http://foru.ms/t6248585-an-open-dialogue-on-the-nature-of-scriptures.html#post39669878) and cross-posted here in the CCF debate subforum.

Just did it as a matter of fact.
What is the way to Jesus...

Believe and follow

[chaoschristian]

What is the way to Jesus...

Believe and follow

Ok. Thank you.

Don't really have a next question as I'm currently listening to Leslie Feist and Chrissy Hynde simultaneously and wondering what a joint album would sound like.

[Gukkor]

Ok. Thank you.

Don't really have a next question as I'm currently listening to Leslie Feist and Chrissy Hynde simultaneously and wondering what a joint album would sound like.

Feist = awesome. :thumbsup:

[Nadiine]

I personally would much prefer if you just said what was on your mind.

I don't like a-ha, gotcha moments at my expense, if you know what I mean.

Plus, I'm not always the best spokesperson for Christianity, either.
I think you pretty darn good (then again, coming from me maybe that might scare you) ROFLLLL :ebil: :blush:

Anyhoo, I'm the same way - i don't see any point to answering these 20 question drills -- You take your time, get some scripture... blah blah blah, and then 'oh ok, thanks for answering"... NEXT QUESTION.

Well,........... :help: :tutu: ok, that was FUN.

I don't feel a sincerety to the need to ask them; it's just asking for debates sake imo. Is there some point here?
Do you wanna know? Do you NOT KNOW? or what?:scratch:

:sigh: Sometimes I think time might be better spent talking to my dog about reformation theology

[Time2BCounted]

:sigh: Sometimes I think time might be better spent talking to my dog about reformation theology

Hey your dog taught me a lot

[chaoschristian]

I recommend adding the following to the opening of the FAQ draft:


This document represents a statement of faith that reflects the beliefs of some, but not all Christians. Adherence to it's principles, doctrines and beliefs is a matter of the free will and accord of the self-identified Christian members of the site. This FAQ is by no means or manner to be used in Site policy to inform or enforce rules and actions regarding the use of faith icons, statements of Christian self-identity, the answering of questions regarding Christian faith and doctrine or the granting or removal of any protection or priviledge afforded to Christian members of this site.


Thank you.

[PreachersWife2004]

Doesn't seem to be much point of defining Christianity but then saying "but not all Christians hold to these beliefs".

[Catherineanne]

:eek: Let's follow this thru systematically --
The Father IS GOD -- so since there is no other way to the Father (GOD), it is directly saying THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO GOD than thru Christ Jesus alone.

HE is the narrow path. Christ is GOD. (2nd of the Trinity) - He is also worshipped by us.

What is a Christian? A follower/disciple of Jesus Christ who came to earth to "show us the way" to the Father.
HE IS THE BRIDGE.

Imagine you have a headteacher, and a rather awkward secretary outside his door, who says, nobody gets to see the headteacher except through me.

This is fine, if you want to see the headteacher. But his wife and family do not make appointments through a secretary, nor do his or her friends, because they are not interested in the headteacher, but in their father, husband or friend. It is a matter of relationship. But the secretary was not lying, any more than Christ is.

Our relationship with God is the opposite of this. Anyone can address God as God, but only Christians get to call him Father. Christ offers us unique access to God as Father, but he does not say that nobody else can address God as God, nor have a relationship with him as God. What they can never have is a relationship with God as Father, because this is unique to us.

As for other ways to God, Christ himself outlines them in Matthew 25, for all nations. He says, inasmuch as ye do it unto the least of these, ye do it unto me. This goes for all men, in all ages. Acts of love, mercy and compassion are credited as if they are done not to man, but to God himself. Not because I say so, but because Christ says so.

[Catherineanne]

There will be no other faiths besides Christianity in heaven. The bible makes that abundantly clear on several occasions.


Makes it clear? Not so. This interpretation is an extrapolation. The Bible nowhere says that only Christians get to heaven. Neither has the Christian church ever taught such a doctrine. It does not even teach this doctrine today.

[Catherineanne]

PreachersWife, Nadiien, et al:

The Way to God is Jesus, correct?

That is not what the Bible says. The Bible says (all spoken by Christ himself) that Christ is the way to the Father, and that he who has seen Christ has seen the Father, and that he and his Father are one.

However, it does not anywhere say that the only way to God is Jesus.

[Catherineanne]

I just cannot agree that it is sound thinking to make fundamental decisions on what is NOT said, on an absence of information, while disregarding the apparent meaning of what IS said.

Indeed not. But if you look to see whether such a decision is in accord with the rest of Christ's teaching, and his attitude towards those he met, then it makes sense. Where it is consistent with Christ, then it is a safe conclusion to draw.



But the bigger point may be that if you are right, everyone who asked about salvation in the NT and was told "Christ" was intentionally being misinformed. That makes the Word of God to be intentionally engaged in teaching error.

This alone, IMO, casts serious doubt upon the "other ways" theory.

Christ is the only means by which Christians can be saved. But the Bible makes perfectly clear, in Christ's own words, that those who have not heard of Christ but whose behaviour is identical with a Christian in terms of their love, compassion and mercy towards their fellow men, will be accepted into eternity at the last judgement.

The people asking about salvation in the NT are already either followers of the Way, or seekers. Of course for them, as for us, Christ is the only answer. But this does not give us the authority to notionally damn the rest of the world for not having had the priviledge of hearing what we have heard, and seeing what we have seen.

[Catherineanne]

The theological revisionism that is being presented here is that Christ saves but that all those who don't know Christ may also be saved...because of what Christ did for them. That is to say, He alone could reconcile God to Man, but non-Christians may be the beneficiaries of His sacrifice, even if they don't accept Him.

In the narrowest and most technical sense, one could tease this idea out of the words of scripture, but I believe that this mocks scripture. The NT's teachings again and again point to one way, not just to one name, as the answer to the question of how salvation comes.

This is not historical revisionism. The church has always taught that those who do not know and have not heard of Christ are not judged in the same way as those who do and have. This is based on the Scripture I have already given, Matthew 25, among others.

I am not sure why this is a point of so much contention? As far as I am aware this is not liberal but central Christian teaching, as old as the Gospels themselves. Actually, older, because it derives from the words of Our Lord himself.

[PreachersWife2004]

Um, how about John 14:6?

Jesus is pretty specific there.

[Catherineanne]

30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

This is a warning to Christians, no less than to others.

Those who think they are saved, but do not show mercy to their fellow men and women.

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm not sure why you continually point to Matthew 25. It is really irrelevant to what we are talking about here. Even my husband, who deals with people who misconstrue scripture quite a bit, can't figure out the logic behind pointing to Matthew 25 as evidence that others besides Christians will be allowed in heaven.

[Catherineanne]

John 8:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=8&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

:amen:

But Our Lord does not say, the rest go to eternal damnation.

^_^

[PreachersWife2004]

So then why doesn't he go on to say "but those that don't follow me but lead good lives will also be in heaven?"

[Catherineanne]

:amen:
[generally speaking]:
One thing I think is SO arrogant in people's thinking about "who gets into heaven" (ie. everybody that does a few good deeds here or there - which is everybody) -

Nobody has said that. Not that I noticed, anyway. :D I quoted Christ's words in Matthew 25, and I am certain you are not calling him arrogant, or wrong. It is he you are aguing against, not those who quote his words and say they live by them.

Nobody has to agree with this. All that is needful is to recognise that when a dogmatic statement is made which is contrary to Biblical evidence, that statement can be called to account. And then the best any of us can do is to decide that there are two differing opinions on this point, and that both are held by good, conscientious, Christian people.

The Bible does not say that only Christians get to heaven, and therefore such an opinion may be held, but is not Biblically substantiated. It does say that only Christians access God as Father, and therefore this may also be held, and said to be Biblical. But it is not Biblical to say that this is the equivalent of saying that only Christians access God as God.

[PreachersWife2004]

and this seems pretty specific as well:

John 3:16-20 (New International Version)


16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203:16-20&version=31#fen-NIV-26127a)] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203:16-20&version=31#fen-NIV-26129b)] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

[Joykins]

Doesn't seem to be much point of defining Christianity but then saying "but not all Christians hold to these beliefs".

If not all Christians hold the beliefs, then it's an inaccurate definition.

[PreachersWife2004]

Matthew 25 merely points to works that are created by faith in Jesus Christ. It does not, nor does the bible at any point in time, say that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ will be in heaven based