Circumcision

[mpossoff]

I all I admit I'm not well schooled in this area.

I've been having a discussion in another forum and the discussion has been lead to this.

Many believe that Paul taught agianst circumcision and the text appears to say he might have or might not have.

Paul is hard to understand as Peter says. I KNOW Paul isn't a false prophet.

Isn't a criteria of a false prophet to lead one away from Torah?

So this is confusing for me.

Can we take ourselves back in time?

Let's go back in time. I'm an Israelite living in the land. You are of the nations. You want to become part of Israel because you see how awesome and wondeful the God of Israel is. He has given Israel these wonderful Instructions. You have faith and worship the God of Israel.

So how was it done?

" Before you even think about being apart you got to get circumcised?"

How do we equate all of this?

Let's put the pieces of the puzzle's together.

Marc

[Steve Petersen]

Things to consider: Judaism was wildly popular among Gentiles is Asia Minor in Paul's day (the Encyclopedia Judaica quotes Josephus in the article Asia Minor)

Some Gentiles eventually converted (they were called 'Sons of Abraham), some lingered in the synagogues but did not convert (God-Fearers). These worshipped along with Jews in the Synagogues.

Now imagine that some from each of these groups become believers in Jesus. You have six potential audiences in Paul's letters.

When Paul uses the word 'circumcision' in his letters, he is frequently referring to that act of conversion to Judaism. Conversion to Judaism required circumcision, baptism, and offering a sacrifice.

Imagine that some of the converts to Judaism (who thought that they secured a place in the World to Come by converting) were trying to convince some God-Fearers who believed in Jesus to convert also. This would have been a direct affront to Paul's idea that a place in the World to Come was secured by 'faith alone.'

Consider this verse:

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Even a 5 year old Jewish kid knows that circumcision IS a commandment of God. Paul had to be referring to something other than the mere act. He is in fact referring to 'conversion to Judaism' (using the word 'circumcision' as short-hand for conversion.)

[mpossoff]

Things to consider: Judaism was wildly popular among Gentiles is Asia Minor in Paul's day (the Encyclopedia Judaica quotes Josephus in the article Asia Minor)

Some Gentiles eventually converted (they were called 'Sons of Abraham), some lingered in the synagogues but did not convert (God-Fearers). These worshipped along with Jews in the Synagogues.

Now imagine that some from each of these groups become believers in Jesus. You have six potential audiences in Paul's letters.

When Paul uses the word 'circumcision' in his letters, he is frequently referring to that act of conversion to Judaism. Conversion to Judaism required circumcision, baptism, and offering a sacrifice.

Imagine that some of the converts to Judaism (who thought that they secured a place in the World to Come by converting) were trying to convince some God-Fearers who believed in Jesus to convert also. This would have been a direct affront to Paul's idea that a place in the World to Come was secured by 'faith alone.'

Consider this verse:

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Even a 5 year old Jewish kid knows that circumcision IS a commandment of God. Paul had to be referring to something other than the mere act. He is in fact referring to 'conversion to Judaism' (using the word 'circumcision' as short-hand for conversion.)

Thanks Steve a pretty good insight so far.

That's an interesting verse 1Cor7:19 because isn't circumcision a commandment of God?

I believe the main battle wasn't Yeshua but the main battle was how Gentiles 'would get in'.

You have those said they must be circumcised to be saved.

What I'm trying to to draw a bridge between what the Torah says and what the Apostle's say regarding circumcision and the Torah.

Because I take a stance that the Apostle's weren't false prophets.

The NT scriptures are confusing to me.

Steve first is it a man made law that said you have to becircumcised to be saved and take on the Torah of Moses? This is in the NT scriptures.

Prior to the NT scriptures when a Gentile attached themselves to the God of Israel was it or wasn't it 'you have to be circumcised' to be apart of Israel?

So it's not a change in ethnicity?

Marc

[Steve Petersen]

There is a saying, I don't remember if it is in the Talmud:

All Israel have a place in the World to Come, as it is written, 'Isa 60:21 Thy people are all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.'

[Steve Petersen]

Thanks Steve a pretty good insight so far.

That's an interesting verse 1Cor7:19 because isn't circumcision a commandment of God?

I believe the main battle wasn't Yeshua but the main battle was how Gentiles 'would get in'.

You have those said they must be circumcised to be saved.

What I'm trying to to draw a bridge between what the Torah says and what the Apostle's say regarding circumcision and the Torah.

Because I take a stance that the Apostle's weren't false prophets.

The NT scriptures are confusing to me.

Steve first is it a man made law that said you have to becircumcised to be saved and take on the Torah of Moses? This is in the NT scriptures.

Prior to the NT scriptures when a Gentile attached themselves to the God of Israel was it or wasn't it 'you have to be circumcised' to be apart of Israel?

So it's not a change in ethnicity?

Marc

Abraham circumcised his entire household at God's command. The Torah secures the promises made to Abraham about a land and descendants.

As far as I know the only examples where a Gentile needs to be circumcised (Bible only, not tradition) is the case of the stranger who wanted to eat the Passover lamb/goat (Ex. 12:48).

Any Jew who was not circumcised was 'cut off' from his people.

An aside: there is a minority opinion in the Talmud that a Gentile convert does NOT need to be circumcised.

Talmud, Yevamoth 46a Our Rabbis taught: ‘If a proselyte was circumcised but had not performed the prescribed ritual ablution, R. Eliezer said, ‘Behold he is a proper proselyte; for so we find that our forefathers were circumcised and had not performed ritual ablution’. If he performed the prescribed ablution but had not been circumcised, R. Joshua said, ‘Behold he is a proper proselyte...’

Perhaps Paul wasn't against conversion 'per se', but against conversion in order to have a part in the World to Come.

[HaNotsri]

An aside: there is a minority opinion in the Talmud that a Gentile convert does NOT need to be circumcised.

Talmud, Yevamoth 46a Our Rabbis taught: ‘If a proselyte was circumcised but had not performed the prescribed ritual ablution, R. Eliezer said, ‘Behold he is a proper proselyte; for so we find that our forefathers were circumcised and had not performed ritual ablution’. If he performed the prescribed ablution but had not been circumcised, R. Joshua said, ‘Behold he is a proper proselyte...’


That was not brought down as halacha. But I like how it addresses the heart.

Perhaps Paul wasn't against conversion 'per se', but against conversion in order to have a part in the World to Come.

I agree with this. I think Paul was against conversion as a means of salvation, because we know that our salvation is NOT based on any act we do. I think Jesus made a similar comment when he was rebuking some of the religious leaders of his day. See Matthew 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell* (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);) as yourselves. This particular group among the P'rushim were hypocrites and any converts they made were made so as well, because they were not necessarily to taught to perform the commandments out of yiras Shamayim (or even if they were, the teachings were empty as the teachers and up being more interested in their outward religiosity and what people thought of them).

What's the point of conversion? Certainly not to win God's favor. For even among Jews, a gentile need not convert to be righteous before God. But that's what some teachers were doing and preaching (which is what Acts 15 was about as well). In my humble opinion, there is no reason for a Christian or Messianic to convert to Judaism. It does two things; 1. It offends those Jews who help them along the way in that they feel deceived by this person 2. It assumes something about God's unconditional love about who you are. We are all called by God in the place He has made us.

Michael

[Steve Petersen]

That was not brought down as halacha however.

That is why I used the word 'minority.':cool:

Is there any halakah based on minority opinion? You got me curious about it now.:scratch:

[mpossoff]

That was not brought down as halacha. But I like how it addresses the heart.



I agree with this. I think Paul was against conversion as a means of salvation, because we know that our salvation is NOT based on any act we do. I think Jesus made a similar comment when he was rebuking some of the religious leaders of his day. See Matthew 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell* (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) as yourselves. This particular group among the P'rushim were hypocrites and any converts they made were made so as well, because they were not necessarily to taught to perform the commandments out of yiras Shamayim (or even if they were, the teachings were empty as the teachers and up being more interested in their outward religiosity and what people thought of them).

What's the point of conversion? Certainly not to win God's favor. For even among Jews, a gentile need not convert to be righteous before God. But that's what some teachers were doing and preaching (which is what Acts 15 was about as well). In my humble opinion, there is no reason for a Christian or Messianic to convert to Judaism. It does two things; 1. It offends those Jews who help them along the way in that they feel deceived by this person 2. It assumes something about God's unconditional love about who you are. We are all called by God in the place He has made us.

Michael

Good post HaNotsri.

Can you help me bridge this between the Torah and the NT scriptures?

Marc

[mpossoff]

Also HaNotsri and Steve,

How does this relate to Torah or no Torah?

There is some teaching that since Gentiles were not circumcised this means they were not on the path of Torah.

Moses preached every Sabbath a starting point or the finish line?

Marc

[Steve Petersen]

The bridge between the Torah and the NT are:

1) the prophets,
2) then the men of the great assembly (Ezra et al),
3) then The Pairs (Zugot),
4) then the Pharisees.

Taking what each had to say about circumcision chronologically is an enormous task. 'Two Jews, three opinions,' and I would add, 'two more questions.'

[HaNotsri]

Also HaNotsri and Steve,

How does this relate to Torah or no Torah?

There is some teaching that since Gentiles were not circumcised this means they were not on the path of Torah.

Moses preached every Sabbath a starting point or the finish line?

Marc


I have stated my position many times in regards to this (before the rift and my hiatus).

I do not believe that the Torah in its entirety is incumbent upon gentile believers. However, I believe that gentiles who put their trust in Christ through faith are welcomed to participate in the blessing that is the Torah. Through and in Christ, our hearts are in a sense "circumcised" and we become grafted into the root that is Israel, becoming part of the commonwealth of Israel (however, we are not Israel).

The Torah will always be binding upon national Israel. This includes those who are native-born and those who choose to become gerim (being a ger tsedek, not a ger toshav). Those who put their faith in Christ, need not be m'giyurred to take upon themselves the yoke of the Torah (or even parts of it) because they have been in-grafted in Christ. There is no point for a Christian (or Messianic or whatever you want to call yourself) to convert. It gives you no advantage. We're bound to Israel's destiny through Christ.

That doesn't mean we have to follow the yoke, but we certainly can be blessed by it. It's an excellent way to identify with who Christ was as a man and as a Jew. Furthermore, the wealth of Jewish tradition that you learn along the way can you give you a good idea of what life was like back then and give you other insights about God's character.

Michael

[Steve Petersen]

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=514&letter=C&search=circumcision

[mpossoff]

I have stated my position many times in regards to this (before the rift and my hiatus).

I do not believe that the Torah in its entirety is incumbent upon gentile believers. However, I believe that gentiles who put their trust in Christ through faith are welcomed to participate in the blessing that is the Torah. Through and in Christ, our hearts are in a sense "circumcised" and we become grafted into the root that is Israel, becoming part of the commonwealth of Israel (however, we are not Israel).

The Torah will always be binding upon national Israel. This includes those who are native-born and those who choose to become gerim (being a ger tsedek, not a ger toshav). Those who put their faith in Christ, need not be m'giyurred to take upon themselves the yoke of the Torah (or even parts of it) because they have been in-grafted in Christ. There is no point for a Christian (or Messianic or whatever you want to call yourself) to convert. It gives you no advantage. We're bound to Israel's destiny through Christ.

That doesn't mean we have to follow the yoke, but we certainly can be blessed by it. It's an excellent way to identify with who Christ was as a man and as a Jew. Furthermore, the wealth of Jewish tradition that you learn along the way can you give you a good idea of what life was like back then and give you other insights about God's character.

Michael

Thanks Michael this sounds good but IMHO it's not as cut and dry.

There is just too many defenses against it.

On the other hand there are too many defenses against the other view.

What about the Millenial Kingdom?

These are notes that I took from a study. It appears those that are in the Millenial Kingdom will have to keep the Law of the Kingdom which includes the Sabbath amongst other commands?

The prophet Isaiah describes a great pilgrimage going to Jerusalem. The pilgrims were not just Israelites. He saw people of ALL nations.

Isaiah said: "Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn. Lift up your eyes and look about you: All assemble and come to you; your sons come from afar, and your daughters are carried on the arm"

ALL nations will pilgram to Jerusalem to worship the King, learn His Torah, and keep His Commandments.

In that day the whole world will be keeping Torah. All nations will make a pilgrimmage to Jerusalem because Jerusalem will be the capitol city of ALL nations. The kingdom of Israel will be universal. All men will serve the King of Israel according to the Torah of Israel.

Knowing that we will be keeping the biblical calendar in Messiah's Kingdom it is clear that keeping the calendar is part of Kingdom living. In that day ALL mankind will keep the Sabbath. When we sit down to eat with the Master, the menu options will certaintly not include shrimp or ham.

Wouldn't we do well to let the rule of the Kingdom dictate how we, servants of the King, live now?

In that day all will keep Torah. The Torah shall go forth from Zion, a light to ALL nations and a Law of ALL men.

If the Torah is the Law of the Kingdom, shouldn't all the subjects of the Kingdom obey that Law?

As the prophet Isaiah has said, shouldn't we turn our hearts toward that NOW?

Why wait until that day? If it's going to be as Isaiah said in that day why should we wait?

After all Yeshua's message was: Repent the Kingdom of Heaven is NOW

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Is 2:2-4
2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
Thatthe mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,

“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Is 66:23
And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD



Marc

[Tkjjc]

If we listen to the teachers sent out from Jesus, then at the start of the foundation of our faith, there lies the outline of what we are to do. I posted this on another post, but seems to have relevance here, so hope this helps.

What was this law to the Gentiles who follow Jesus and were not under the ordinances of Moses? This can be found easily in Acts, and further stated throughout the NT. All is takes is simple research to understand what the message is, as the Gentiles were to the Jews at the time, a peculiar people who wanted this saving Grace of our Lord Jesus the Christ

Acts 21:25"But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."

This was written back in

Acts15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

Why was this written? As a response to the charge of the Pharisees that all converted Gentiles be circumcised according to the Law of Moses, in

Acts 15:5
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

But James and Peter stood up giving direction at this debate with Peter stating in

Acts 15:7-11
After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith." Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? " But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

Did it end there? We have already covered grace, right?? No it didn't, as there is more!!

After Paul and Barnabas explained to these Jewish leaders and elders all that had happened, another Apostle of Jesus, James, stood up and said this with the Caps being quoted from the OT:

Acts 15-18
After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.

He the caps off the entire lecture with this summation

Acts 15:19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble(With what?) those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,

And finally tells what this law unto the Gentiles would be
Acts 15:20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

and also in
Acts 15:28-29it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.

So lets break down these essentials:
Abstaining from this sacrificed to idols:This is really self explanatory as the meat that was sacrificed to the gods of the heathens was often sold to the populace as a sanctified meal..

From BLOOD(haima=strongs G129):
1) blood
2) blood shed, to be shed by violence, slay, murder

Now with BLOOD we can get alot of meanings to what this means. Bottom line is I would take this to mean ALL forms, especially that form which takes another's life, as this is what the message of Jesus was concerning enemies..

from things strangled (pniktos):
1) suffocate, strangled

But this adjective (pniktos) is taken from the verb (pnigō)
1) to choke, strangle
a) of thorns crowding out the seed in the field and hindering its growth
This one caught my eye!!! Like a new believer(seed) caught up in the deceitfulness of men(thorns) Mark 4:19-20
2) to wring one's neck, throttle

and from fornication(porneia):
1) illicit sexual intercourse
2) metaph. the worship of idols
This also is self explanatory in itself....

Thoughts on this? I feel myself, that this is for the New Believer, but when you get into the Letters, it gets a little more in depth concerning how one should live, and act, as a believer matures into the Kingdom of Jesus. Should we mature in our understanding? Or should we sit back in our world of belief. Jesus commands we take the message to the world, and in doing so, answers alot of questions through Paul and the Apostles that other regions have brought up. Things get more clarified, as the Believer is further purified into the Kingdom. But as to the Law, I think not, as if it were told to be so, they would have said. It seems they went more to the Noadic Laws than the Law of the Torah.

[HadassahSukkot]

Methinks someone has conveniently forgotten Acts 21-26.

False witnesses spoke against Paul saying he taught against Torah and Circumcision when the Gentiles were concerned, and Paul speaks in his own defense contrary.

Even Peter said in his second letter:
14 And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight. 15 And remember, the Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him—16 speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.



We must be very careful to evaluate the writings of Paul with other scripture and compare it to other rabbinical writings at the time to ensure we are reading and interpreting him correctly. Otherwise we are just as guilty of taking him out of context.

[BereanTodd]

It was not required for the new beleivers from the gentiles to be circumcised, that much is abundantly clear from not only Paul's writtings, but the Jerusalem council. On the other hand, Paul did not teach against circumcision, and even had one of his gentile followers circumcised in order to fit in in Jerusalem at one point.

[Tkjjc]

It was not required for the new beleivers from the gentiles to be circumcised, that much is abundantly clear from not only Paul's writtings, but the Jerusalem council. On the other hand, Paul did not teach against circumcision, and even had one of his gentile followers circumcised in order to fit in in Jerusalem at one point.

But remember that was ONLY to fit in,,,not a requirement for salvation. As Paul became to those he preached to,,Jew to Jew, Gentile to Gentile,,ect...

[Steve Petersen]

Right. The context is given at the beginning of chapter 15 of Acts:

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Some were making circumcision a requirement for salvation.

And this is going to be the umteenth Acts 15 thread.:sigh:

[Tkjjc]

Right. The context is given at the beginning of chapter 15 of Acts:

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Some were making circumcision a requirement for salvation.

And this is going to be the umteenth Acts 15 thread.:sigh:

So, sounds to me like somethings need squared away then. Are you for or against all this? And if not, what are you for? Do you need circumcision or not...Torah or not,,,Temple worship or not...Feast or Sabbaths, or not...

If Jesus was willing to accept us all as we are,,,what then do we need to change in our behaviors,,and lifestyles,,,to be accepted, as far as Jewish OT living goes?

[Steve Petersen]

So, sounds to me like somethings need squared away then. Are you for or against all this? And if not, what are you for? Do you need circumcision or not...Torah or not,,,Temple worship or not...Feast or Sabbaths, or not...

If Jesus was willing to accept us all as we are,,,what then do we need to change in our behaviors,,and lifestyles,,,to be accepted, as far as Jewish OT living goes?

Were the Israelites circumcised when God delivered them from slavery?

Moses hadn't even circumcised HIS sons in Egypt.

Circumcision is not a requirement for deliverance. It is a sign of covenant participation (like a wedding ring.)

[HadassahSukkot]

Were the Israelites circumcised when God delivered them from slavery?

Moses hadn't even circumcised HIS sons in Egypt.

Circumcision is not a requirement for deliverance. It is a sign of covenant participation (like a wedding ring.)
Exactly.

Some of us also forget that G-d required of the remaining Israelites (the remnant) that to enter across the Jordan into the Land that it was also a 'must'.

It is not a must for salvation, but if one is/was not circumcised and is now a believer and wishes to keep the feasts (esp. Passover) One should be circumcised. And, IMHO, especially so if one is Jewish and not circumcised - or you are cut off from your people (per Scripture).

[mpossoff]

Were the Israelites circumcised when God delivered them from slavery?

Moses hadn't even circumcised HIS sons in Egypt.

Circumcision is not a requirement for deliverance. It is a sign of covenant participation (like a wedding ring.)

Steve from doing some study Paul is hard to understand even Peter said it.

2Peter 3:15-1715 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

What does Paul mean when He says?

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

This looks like to me that the uncircumcision are now NOT strangers from the covenants and aliens from the commonwealth of Israel. Why? Because of the blood of Yeshua.

As you said circumcision is a sign of covenant participation (like a wedding ring.) But Paul says the uncircumcision are now NOT strangers from the covenants and aliens from the commonwealth of Israel. Why? Because of the blood of Yeshua.

Hmmm I look at this and this makes me stand up and say "Wait a minute!, what going on here! Paul claimed he never taught against Torah and I believe him. So since Paul is hard to understand then I must be not understanding Paul. Because I know in my heart that Paul isn't a false prophet or hyocrite."

Steve can you shed some light on this so I can better understand?

Marc

[Tkjjc]

Were the Israelites circumcised when God delivered them from slavery?

Moses hadn't even circumcised HIS sons in Egypt.

Circumcision is not a requirement for deliverance. It is a sign of covenant participation (like a wedding ring.)

But I am again asking this question. Why are you trying to keep a covenant that is old? Jesus was fullfilling Torah, and when He died on the cross, it was finished.

Hebrews 8:7-13 and 9:1-28 tells us that the old has passed away. We are in the new. I have asked this question from different denominations and am asking you...

If I was a new believer in Jesus in 36AD,,,and am Jewish,,,what has changed in my OC worship, and in my lifestyle now? For I suppose that if you want to keep the parts of the OC that you like,,,Paul says you must keep it ALL...and Christ is of no value to you.

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

[Tkjjc]

Exactly.

Some of us also forget that G-d required of the remaining Israelites (the remnant) that to enter across the Jordan into the Land that it was also a 'must'.

It is not a must for salvation, but if one is/was not circumcised and is now a believer and wishes to keep the feasts (esp. Passover) One should be circumcised. And, IMHO, especially so if one is Jewish and not circumcised - or you are cut off from your people (per Scripture).

But if you follow the Law,,aren't you cutting yourself off from Jesus as I already posted in the above post? God has already stated the He didin't judge based on the feasts and sabbaths, and that we were not to judge

Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath
OC?

Thoughts?

[BereanTodd]

But if you follow the Law,,aren't you cutting yourself off from Jesus as I already posted in the above post? God has already stated the He didin't judge based on the feasts and sabbaths, and that we were not to judge

Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath
OC?

Thoughts?

We're not to judge others based on those things, and they are not salvific issues that prevent one from being saved. However, at the same time they may be maturity issues. God said these are everlasting feasts, and the Bible explicitly states that at the very least Tabbernacles (Sukkot) and Passover (Pesach) will be oberved in the heavenly kingdom that is to come. Why not get some practice at it now before you get there?

[mpossoff]

But I am again asking this question. Why are you trying to keep a covenant that is old? Jesus was fullfilling Torah, and when He died on the cross, it was finished.

Hebrews 8:7-13 and 9:1-28 tells us that the old has passed away. We are in the new. I have asked this question from different denominations and am asking you...

If I was a new believer in Jesus in 36AD,,,and am Jewish,,,what has changed in my OC worship, and in my lifestyle now? For I suppose that if you want to keep the parts of the OC that you like,,,Paul says you must keep it ALL...and Christ is of no value to you.

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Tkjjc it doesn't say it passed away.

This is what it says in context.

But first we have to establish some important scripture.

Gal 3:15 says no covenants of God annuls a previous covenant.
Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.

When God made a covenant with Abraham is that a new covenant? Did the covenant with Noah go away? That’s it! No more rainbows and floods are now are allowed? Just because He made another covenant? Well Abraham was a decendent of Noah so did that annul it? The covenant with David? Ok all bets are off all those previous covenants no longer apply?

what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. This is in the presence tense that means it hasn't yet become absolete. And haven’t yet grown old. Right?

This is from a study I did and this is a quote from the study and it makes sense.

When was this Epistle written? 30 years or so after the resurrection. So apparently the 'first covenant' was still operable then. OK it was about to keal over and die but it was still operable. You know there are to be a break point where this one is valid and this one is now valid. There ought to be a clean break , The old covenant worked until right now(snapping my finger) OK now it's a New Covenant, anybody before that moment, "sorry you are out of luck", anybody after that moment "you have a New Covenant ", "the new covenant replaces the old covenant". I’m not saying that’s what it is , this is dispensation theology. “At a moment somehow we went from old to new”. "It's obsolete it's been replaced, there's a new covenant that replaced it". If so you got a problem with the Greek because it's present tense. The present tense makes us sit up and go "Wait a minute". "This is when the temple was destroyed, yeah we finally got them, that's it take their temple away". That's Replacement theology. "Oh no! the temple comes back and so does the Law!, oh no we're all going to have to be bound to the Law again!(end of Ezekial)".



Hebrews 8:13
In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

He has made the first obsolete When He first made it , He made it so that would in fact be temporal, like the Earth and the Heavens.

Hmmm makes me re-think.

Marc

[Tkjjc]

But remember that THIS church was the one who Paul gets on about following the Law...instead of following the PROMISE

Intent of the Law

15Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
20Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
21Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

So again I ask,,which of these Jewish Laws and feasts and Sabbaths are we keeping? Are we keeping them out of Love of God, Fear of God, or rather to feel a little closer to the "chosen" people of God, when we are ALL one in Christ according to the promise..which means that we are Called according to the Promises given to Abraham, and the Promise of Christ that was given to him, so that we may ALL be one with the Father...

Just curious.

[mpossoff]

But remember that THIS church was the one who Paul gets on about following the Law...instead of following the PROMISE

Intent of the Law

15Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
20Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
21Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

So again I ask,,which of these Jewish Laws and feasts and Sabbaths are we keeping? Are we keeping them out of Love of God, Fear of God, or rather to feel a little closer to the "chosen" people of God, when we are ALL one in Christ according to the promise..which means that we are Called according to the Promises given to Abraham, and the Promise of Christ that was given to him, so that we may ALL be one with the Father...

Just curious.


25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

We have to look at this in the Hebraic mindset of Paul. Follow me here.

Cause if Paul taught against the Torah then he's a false prophet and he's not because he's misunderstood. Paul is not saying the Torah is abolished.

From the time of Moshe until the coming of Yeshua, the Torah had a “conscious-raising” role towards sin. The Torah still exists, is still in this force (see Gal. 6:2), and for those who have not yet come to trust in Yeshua it still has this function. But for those who do trust in Yeshua and are faithful to him, the Torah need no longer serve in this capacity.

This is what Paul is saying.

There is another function of the Torah...

Marc

[Tkjjc]

So then what capacity if any does Torah show us? It has fullfilled it's job of showing us that we WERE under the Law, as well as that which was written on our hearts. We know that as fallible humans, we needed that, which was before Christ, attonement for sin. We know what this sin is and we know how to, through sacrifice, attone for this. But Christ did away with that. So I suppose this is again what I am asking...
Use of the Torah?

Temple?
Ordaninces?
Sacrifices?
Sabbath days?
Feasts?
History?

I am really not following this line of thought, at all. It says we were freed from the bondages and such, as the biblical fathers thought it was a yoke which they had a hard time bearing. Why are we in todays age, putting back on the yoke?

[Steve Petersen]

But I am again asking this question. Why are you trying to keep a covenant that is old? Jesus was fullfilling Torah, and when He died on the cross, it was finished.

Hebrews 8:7-13 and 9:1-28 tells us that the old has passed away. We are in the new. I have asked this question from different denominations and am asking you...

If I was a new believer in Jesus in 36AD,,,and am Jewish,,,what has changed in my OC worship, and in my lifestyle now? For I suppose that if you want to keep the parts of the OC that you like,,,Paul says you must keep it ALL...and Christ is of no value to you.

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

NO ONE HERE IS TALKING ABOUT JUSTIFICATION. I always have to be emphatic about this because MJs are perceived as advocating salvation by keeping the commmandment. See how well the Christian world indoctrinates its people. WE SAY one thing and THEY HEAR another. I have never, never said justification comes through the keeping the Torah. Nor have any MJs I know.

The Torah has more than one role. As Paul tells us, it defines sin, it points us to Messiah, but it has other functions as well.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

[mpossoff]

So then what capacity if any does Torah show us? It has fullfilled it's job of showing us that we WERE under the Law, as well as that which was written on our hearts. We know that as fallible humans, we needed that, which was before Christ, attonement for sin. We know what this sin is and we know how to, through sacrifice, attone for this. But Christ did away with that. So I suppose this is again what I am asking...
Use of the Torah?

Temple?
Ordaninces?
Sacrifices?
Sabbath days?
Feasts?
History?

I am really not following this line of thought, at all. It says we were freed from the bondages and such, as the biblical fathers thought it was a yoke which they had a hard time bearing. Why are we in todays age, putting back on the yoke?

I find it ironic that God through Moses said that the Torah is not hard. Then we hear in the NT about the yoke that our forefathers couldn't bare.

I have trained my mind that when I see something like this I say to myself "God said the Torah isn't hard. Then we hear about the yoke that no one could bare. There is something wrong. Either I don't understand, I'm missing something, language and historical contexts I'm not aware of, etc. This is an apparent contradiction. Maybe they aren't talking about the Torah because God said it was easy and Yeshua said His yoke is easy...Hmmmm"

Marc

[wpa59]

A great book that deals a lot with this subject is The Irony of Galatians by Mark Nanos.
Paul circumcised Timothy who had a Jewish mother before taking him along on his travels but generally speaking was against gentiles being circumcised. Nanos discusses Paul's view on circumcision in light of the tenuousness of the position in the community that gentile Christ believers had - as non-Jews they were expected to participate in emperor worship and pagan practices. They wanted Jewish status because Jews had been exempted from this idolatrous worship.Therefore they would have wanted circumcision to show Jewish identity and protect them from this paganism. Paul, in his letter to the Galatians, is apparently asking them to be brave and trust Christ - that they now have an identity in Christ and should be recognized in that status.

[Tkjjc]

Yes Jesus said His yoke was easy for us to take.

Matthew 11:

25At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. 26"Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.
27"All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

As you can see, Jesus is stating that for us, taking Jesus's yoke was easy with alot less burdens to bear.

yoke= zygos
2) of troublesome laws imposed on one, esp. of the Mosaic law, hence the name is so transferred to the commands of Christ as to contrast them with the commands of the Pharisees which were a veritable 'yoke'; yet even Christ's commands must be submitted to, though easier to be kept

[mpossoff]

Yes Jesus said His yoke was easy for us to take.

Matthew 11:

25At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. 26"Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.
27"All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

As you can see, Jesus is stating that for us, taking Jesus's yoke was easy with alot less burdens to bear.

yoke= zygos
2) of troublesome laws imposed on one, esp. of the Mosaic law, hence the name is so transferred to the commands of Christ as to contrast them with the commands of the Pharisees which were a veritable 'yoke'; yet even Christ's commands must be submitted to, though easier to be kept

To bounce off that...

I have discovered that yoke means Torah from studing Jewish literatures.

With that being said Yeshua said His yoke(Torah) was easy.

Easy compared to what?

Isn't Yeshua God?

Isn't He the one that gave the Torah?

Since Yeshua is God, the one that gave the Torah, He said that Torah was easy and not hard in Deuteronomy.

God in the flesh, Yeshua, is saying what He said in Deuteronomy, that Torah is not hard and easy.

This is NOT a dispensation. Yeshua's words are the same words from beginning to end.

Marc

[mpossoff]

And I haven't figured this out.

Yeshua says His yoke is easy. I believe He's referring to His yoke being easier than that of the Pharisee's.

And on the other hand Yeshua says:

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat

So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach

Marc

[Steve Petersen]

yoke= zygos
2) of troublesome laws imposed on one, esp. of the Mosaic law, hence the name is so transferred to the commands of Christ as to contrast them with the commands of the Pharisees which were a veritable 'yoke'; yet even Christ's commands must be submitted to, though easier to be kept

:sigh: I guess I need to post these:

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Back to the origianl discussion:

There is an opinion expressed in the Talmud that all circumcised go Paradise:

God addressed the proselytes: ‘You have misgivings, because I disqualified you from the Passover celebration by commanding: THERE SHALL NO ALIEN EAT THEREOF. Why do you not ask the Gibeonites how kindly I treated them, though they were men who acted deceitfully out of fear and came to My children, so that they [the Israelites] swore to them [to preserve them]’? Think of what I did to Saul and his household who wished to slay them? [I brought it about] that they slew seven of his [Saul's] children’; as it says: But the king took the two sons of Rizpah.... and the five sons of Michal..., and he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites (II Sam. XXI, 8 f.). God said: ‘If I received favourably the Gibeonites, who are Amorites, and out of fear wrought deceitfully with Israel, and I gave them satisfaction for their wrongs [by punishing] My children, shall I not receive favourably and also promote the proselytes who come to serve Me out of sheer love?’ Hence doth it say: ’Neither let the alien, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying: The Lord will surely separate me from his people.’3 That refers to the aliens who are circumcised; but the idolaters are uncircumcised of heart and these God disqualifies and brings down to Gehinnom, as it says: Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt and cast them down, etc. (Ezek. XXXII, 18). Isaiah also says: Therefore the netherworld hath enlarged her desire, and opened her mouth without measure (V, 14),-that is, for the heathen who despise the statute of circumcision, as it says: And He established it unto Jacob for a statute, to Israel for an everlasting covenant (Ps. CV, 10). No Israelite who is circumcised will go down to Gehinnom. R. Berekiah said: To stop the heretics and the wicked ones of Israel saying: ' We will not descend to Gehinnom because we are circumcised,’ what doth the Holy One, blessed be He, do? He sends an angel who stretches their foreskin and then they descend to Gehinnom;

Whether this idea was around when Paul was alive is debatable, but given the strength of oral tradition in Judaism, I don't think it can be ruled out. This citation bears directly on Paul's problem with those who pushed circumcision ('works of the Law') as the key to Paradise rather than faith.

[Tkjjc]

To bounce off that...

I have discovered that yoke means Torah from studing Jewish literatures.

With that being said Yeshua said His yoke(Torah) was easy.

Easy compared to what?

Isn't Yeshua God?

Isn't He the one that gave the Torah?

Since Yeshua is God, the one that gave the Torah, He said that Torah was easy and not hard in Deuteronomy.

God in the flesh, Yeshua, is saying what He said in Deuteronomy, that Torah is not hard and easy.

This is NOT a dispensation. Yeshua's words are the same words from beginning to end.

Marc

Where do you see that yoke means Torah in Hebrew? I havent found that yet,,and am still searching...In Hebrew, yoke means just that,a yoke, which is a form of servitude or slavery

[HadassahSukkot]

The Torah is always likened to a yoke whose burden is easy to bear. You will not always find interpretation of Scripture within Scripture, though you will often find the correct interpretation within, which is often taugth incorrectly.

Kudos Marc and Steve

[Tkjjc]

:sigh: I guess I need to post these:

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Back to the origianl discussion:

There is an opinion expressed in the Talmud that all circumcised go Paradise:

God addressed the proselytes: ‘You have misgivings, because I disqualified you from the Passover celebration by commanding: THERE SHALL NO ALIEN EAT THEREOF. Why do you not ask the Gibeonites how kindly I treated them, though they were men who acted deceitfully out of fear and came to My children, so that they [the Israelites] swore to them [to preserve them]’? Think of what I did to Saul and his household who wished to slay them? [I brought it about] that they slew seven of his [Saul's] children’; as it says: But the king took the two sons of Rizpah.... and the five sons of Michal..., and he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites (II Sam. XXI, 8 f.). God said: ‘If I received favourably the Gibeonites, who are Amorites, and out of fear wrought deceitfully with Israel, and I gave them satisfaction for their wrongs [by punishing] My children, shall I not receive favourably and also promote the proselytes who come to serve Me out of sheer love?’ Hence doth it say: ’Neither let the alien, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying: The Lord will surely separate me from his people.’3 That refers to the aliens who are circumcised; but the idolaters are uncircumcised of heart and these God disqualifies and brings down to Gehinnom, as it says: Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt and cast them down, etc. (Ezek. XXXII, 18). Isaiah also says: Therefore the netherworld hath enlarged her desire, and opened her mouth without measure (V, 14),-that is, for the heathen who despise the statute of circumcision, as it says: And He established it unto Jacob for a statute, to Israel for an everlasting covenant (Ps. CV, 10). No Israelite who is circumcised will go down to Gehinnom. R. Berekiah said: To stop the heretics and the wicked ones of Israel saying: ' We will not descend to Gehinnom because we are circumcised,’ what doth the Holy One, blessed be He, do? He sends an angel who stretches their foreskin and then they descend to Gehinnom;

Whether this idea was around when Paul was alive is debatable, but given the strength of oral tradition in Judaism, I don't think it can be ruled out. This citation bears directly on Paul's problem with those who pushed circumcision ('works of the Law') as the key to Paradise rather than faith,

But let us circle ALL the way around now to the Promise...was Abraham circumcised? Yes. But does circumcise mean Torah? No.This is our Promise as was made to Him, not to the Jewish people....as Christ Himself fullfilled that Promise to Abraham's seed. The Jewish people were used as sort of a vehicle for that to happen, as a for shadow of things to come.

So again I ask the same questions over and over.....

What part of Torah do you all follow here? I read in another post that you all don't even consider yourselves Christians. Is this true for all? And if you do follow the Torah, what parts of it does this entail and are you all "hoping" for another temple to be built as well?

This fansinates me because I myself am not buying mainstream Christianity. There was and is more to this story than what is being preached...I E. the meat of the gospel,,not just the milk. But when Jesus walked this earth as the LIVING Torah, which He did, and finished it on the cross,,,what part of this OC Torah are we too keep, and what part of the NC do we keep...

Lost and looking,,,so play nice here)

[Steve Petersen]

Where do you see that yoke means Torah in Hebrew? I havent found that yet,,and am still searching...In Hebrew, yoke means just that,a yoke, which is a form of servitude or slavery

You won't find it in a Greek or Hebrew dictionary. It has to do with Jewish culture and history. A lot happened between the Testaments. This is where a 'Scripture only' approach to the texts fails us.

'Yoke of the Torah' is an idiom in Judaism for 'taking upon the commandment of God.' Jews who recite the Shema daily (Hear O Israel...) are said to be taking upon themselves the yoke of the Torah.

This is from the Jewish Encyclopedia article Kingdom of God: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=225&letter=K

Targum to Zech. xiv. 9 and Ob. 21; "Malkut Shaddai ": 'Alenu; and "Malkut Shamayim": Ber. ii. 2, and elsewhere in Mishnah and Haggadah): Reign or sovereignty of God as contrasted with the kingdom of the worldly powers. The hope that God will be King over all the earth, when all idolatry will be banished, is expressed in prophecy and song (Ex. xv. 18; Zech. xiv. 9; Isa. xxiv. 23, Iii. 7; Micah iv. 7; Ps. xxix. 10), and with special emphasis in the later Psalms (xciii.-xcix.). God's Kingdom is spoken of in Ps. xxii. 29 (A. V. 28), ciii. 19, cxlv. 11-13; Ob. 21; Dan. iii. 33 (A. V. iv. 3); Tobit, xiii. 1; Sibyllines, iii. 47-48, 767; Psalms of Solomon, xvii. 3; Wisdom, x. 10; Assumptio Mosis, x. 1; Song of the Three Holy Children, 33; Enoch, lxxxiv. 2. The words "The Lord shall be King" are translated in the Targum, "The Kingdom of God shall be revealed"; and the ancient liturgy culminates in the prayer that "God may establish His Kingdom speedily" (see 'Alenu; Ḳaddish). The Kingdom of God, however, in order to be established on earth, requires recognition by man; that is, to use the Hasidæan phrase borrowed from Babylonia or Persia, man must "take upon himself the yoke of the Kingdom of God" ("'Ol Malkut Shamayim"; "Heaven" is a synonym of "God"; see Heaven). This the Israelites do daily when reciting the Shema' (Ber. ii. 2); so do the angels when singing their "Thrice Holy" (Hekalot); and in the future "all men shall take upon themselves the yoke of the Kingdom of God when casting away their idols" (Mek., Beshallaḥ, 'Amalek, 2). Accordingly, says the Midrash (Cant. R. ii. 12), "when the Kingdom of Rome has ripened enough to be destroyed, the Kingdom of God will appear."

Upon the Red Sea, Israel first sang the praise of God's Kingdom (Ex. R. and Targ. Yer. to Ex. xv. 19), and at Mount Sinai they accepted the yoke of God's Kingdom (Sifra, Ḳedoshim, xi.), just as Abraham did (Book of Jubilees, xii. 19), makingHim King upon earth (Sifre, Deut. 313); each proselyte, in joining Judaism, "takes upon himself the yoke of God's Kingdom (Tan., Lek Leka, ed. Buber, p. 6). The Hebrew slave who declares his wish to be a slave for life has his ear pierced, because "he casts off the yoke of God's Kingdom to bend to the yoke of another sovereignty" (Tosef., B. Ḳ. vii. 5; Yer. Ḳid. 59b). The yoke of God's Kingdom—the yoke of the Torah—grants freedom from other yokes (Abot iii. 4). Especially was it the principle of one party of the Hasidæans, the Zealots, not to recognize as king any one except God (Josephus, "Ant." xviii. 1, § 1, 6; comp. Philo, "Quod Omnis Probus Liber," §§ 12-13, and the prayer Abinu Malkenu—"Our Father, our King, we have no King except Thee!"

[Tkjjc]

ok, i understand what the meaning of men mean, but that isn't in the Bible for the average believer to follow. But I get it. In their minds a yoke was something they themselves willed either to God or to Man. Slavery in essence. You say it is the Torah which enslaves or subjected to. I agree with this, except that after our Christ came, He released that yoke on us, and bore it Himself, and then asked if we wanted to follow Him, to take His yoke, which no one could bear but Himself, and share into it...and He would Teach us :)

28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Jesus here in blue is quoting Jeremiah 6:16...talking about the destruction of Jerusalem..God doesn't like their "Torah" Law keeping, because they haven't kept it right in His eyes.

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

[Steve Petersen]

ok, i understand what the meaning of men mean, but that isn't in the Bible for the average believer to follow. But I get it. In their minds a yoke was something they themselves willed either to God or to Man. Slavery in essence. You say it is the Torah which enslaves or subjected to. I agree with this, except that after our Christ came, He released that yoke on us, and bore it Himself, and then asked if we wanted to follow Him, to take His yoke, which no one could bear but Himself, and share into it...and He would Teach us :)

28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Jesus here in blue is quoting Jeremiah 6:16...talking about the destruction of Jerusalem..God doesn't like their "Torah" Law keeping, because they haven't kept it right in His eyes.

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

The yoke of God's Kingdom—the yoke of the Torah—grants freedom from other yokes (Abot iii. 4).

'The yoke of slavery' could well be an allusion to the idea of 'slavery in Egypt' as a metaphor for 'slavery to the Adversary.' When God brought Israel out of Egypt they were relieved of the 'yoke of slavery' and given 'the yoke of freedom (Torah)' by God.

As to what commandments? All of them that you are allowed to follow.

[Tkjjc]

The yoke of God's Kingdom—the yoke of the Torah—grants freedom from other yokes (Abot iii. 4).

'The yoke of slavery' could well be an allusion to the idea of 'slavery in Egypt' as a metaphor for 'slavery to the Adversary.' When God brought Israel out of Egypt they were relieved of the 'yoke of slavery' and given 'the yoke of freedom (Torah)' by God.

As to what commandments? All of them that you are allowed to follow.

I understand I think. But trading one yoke for another, regardless of who it is given to, is still a yoke. Jesus said to take on His yoke as it was easy. Graft into it. Share. How was this easy when the apostles thought that the Jewish system was hard and unbearable? Because I believe that Jesus was referring to serving out of Love for God the Father first, and then to serving mankind to bring them closer to the Father. Kinda like, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand". Who's hand? And repent or change and loose the mind for what? God's kingdom? Or Thy will be done, on Earth first, as it is in Heaven?

Is OC Torah really freedom? Or is it religion? Didn't Christ become NC Torah, ultimately ending with the sacrifice of the Lamb (himself)? Isn't He now and forever a High Priest according to the First Order? The Heavenly one?

So many questions, so little answers...I'll keep searching and praying..

[mpossoff]

ok, i understand what the meaning of men mean, but that isn't in the Bible for the average believer to follow. But I get it. In their minds a yoke was something they themselves willed either to God or to Man. Slavery in essence. You say it is the Torah which enslaves or subjected to. I agree with this, except that after our Christ came, He released that yoke on us, and bore it Himself, and then asked if we wanted to follow Him, to take His yoke, which no one could bear but Himself, and share into it...and He would Teach us :)

28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Jesus here in blue is quoting Jeremiah 6:16...talking about the destruction of Jerusalem..God doesn't like their "Torah" Law keeping, because they haven't kept it right in His eyes.

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Tkjjc I don't know you but:

28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Isn't a contradiction as I can see.

This sounds like the One who spoke the Words from Mount Sinai and the Torah through Moses.

Are you implying that the yoke Yeshua is referring to is not the same yoke He was referring to the children of Israel in the Torah?

If you see it as a different yoke to me that's implying dispensational theology. 'Before the cross, after the cross, the old way, now we have a new way'. Or 'Yeshua came and started another religion'.

Marc

[mpossoff]

I understand I think. But trading one yoke for another, regardless of who it is given to, is still a yoke. Jesus said to take on His yoke as it was easy. Graft into it. Share. How was this easy when the apostles thought that the Jewish system was hard and unbearable? Because I believe that Jesus was referring to serving out of Love for God the Father first, and then to serving mankind to bring them closer to the Father. Kinda like, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand". Who's hand? And repent or change and loose the mind for what? God's kingdom? Or Thy will be done, on Earth first, as it is in Heaven?

Is OC Torah really freedom? Or is it religion? Didn't Christ become NC Torah, ultimately ending with the sacrifice of the Lamb (himself)? Isn't He now and forever a High Priest according to the First Order? The Heavenly one?

So many questions, so little answers...I'll keep searching and praying..

Again I would like to address that this is nothing new.

'Because I believe that Jesus was referring to serving out of Love for God the Father first, and then to serving mankind to bring them closer to the Father. Kinda like, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand". Who's hand? And repent or change and loose the mind for what? God's kingdom? Or Thy will be done, on Earth first, as it is in Heaven?'

Marc

[Tkjjc]

Again I would like to address that this is nothing new.

'Because I believe that Jesus was referring to serving out of Love for God the Father first, and then to serving mankind to bring them closer to the Father. Kinda like, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand". Who's hand? And repent or change and loose the mind for what? God's kingdom? Or Thy will be done, on Earth first, as it is in Heaven?'

Marc

Nothing new as far to what?

[Tkjjc]

Tkjjc I don't know you but:

28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Isn't a contradiction as I can see.

This sounds like the One who spoke the Words from Mount Sinai and the Torah through Moses.

Are you implying that the yoke Yeshua is referring to is not the same yoke He was referring to the children of Israel in the Torah?

If you see it as a different yoke to me that's implying dispensational theology. 'Before the cross, after the cross, the old way, now we have a new way'. Or 'Yeshua came and started another religion'.

Marc

Well, I despise "labels", so let us stick to what we know. What yoke is easy, and what yoke is hard? What yoke is freedom, and what yoke is slavery? Or do you not listen to what Paul? Isn't this not easy to see, or am I reading the wrong text here?

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

[mpossoff]

Nothing new as far to what?

I'm not sure I'm understanding you Tkjjc.

Are you implying that what Yeshua said and taught is different than what He said and taught in the Old Testament?

Now Yeshua said His yoke is easy. This complies with what He said in the Old Testament about His Torah.

With that being said why would Yeshua say take my Torah as it is easy(Same as in the Old Testament)?

It's obvious there was a yoke that was hard and a burden or He wouldn't address it.

So if His yoke which is the Torah has always been easy from the beginning....

What yoke is He referring to that is hard and a burden?

Marc

[mpossoff]

Well, I despise "labels", so let us stick to what we know. What yoke is easy, and what yoke is hard? What yoke is freedom, and what yoke is slavery? Or do you not listen to what Paul? Isn't this not easy to see, or am I reading the wrong text here?

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

What law is Romans 3:31 referring too? Man made law? Torah? Some other kind of law? Law of sin and death?

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

What law is it speaking of? It couldn’t be anything other than the Torah in context?

I find it very ironic how Paul negatively speaks against the law that he would make this point? Could he be speaking about another law besides the Torah? Paul is saying that the Torah and faith are complimentary and not in conflict. There’s no such thing as law versus grace. Truthfully, that’s a lie. On the contrary, we establish the law through faith. Faith establishes the Torah. There is a direct connection between faith and the Torah as in Romans 7:7-25.

What I'm saying is we have to be careful. In regards to Romans 7 the point is the word nomos is flipping back and forth between a ‘good’ law(God’s Law) and a ‘bad’ law(the law of sin and death). How do you know which law Paul is speaking of? Sometimes it’s hard to figure out. You got to get the whole argument and context is very important.

So my point is it's not fair to say everytime you see the word law or yoke that the law means God's Law and yoke means God's yoke.

Another point is as bible sudents we must be careful in dicerning.

Marc

[mpossoff]

This is from a quote from graftedin.com and it makes sense.

From the time of Moshe until the coming of Yeshua, the Torah had a “conscious-raising” role towards sin. The Torah still exists, is still in this force (see Gal. 6:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gal.+6%3A2)), and for those who have not yet come to trust in Yeshua it still has this function. But for those who do trust in Yeshua and are faithful to him, the Torah need no longer serve in this capacity.

With that being said since Torah no longer serves in that capacity in what capacity does the Torah now serve?

Marc

[Tkjjc]

See that makes perfect sense to me.

In what capacity does Torah now serve? If Jesus became the Torah, full filled it in His lifetime and death, in what capacity does the OC Jewish Torah now serve, since He established a NC with His "lost sheep" people FIRST and then with the Gentiles, not like the covenant of old, but a new one.
The OT and the NT speak of this new covenant, but what exactly is it? We find this in Hebrews, going back to the original promises of Abraham. We find it in Acts in the letter to the Gentiles, stating that Noadic Laws are now in force. We go back to what Jesus stated in His ministry. Not one tittle or jot will be changed until ALL is full filled. When was it full filled? Was it at all? Dying on the cross Jesus said it was finished. What was finished? Why was the temple veil rent in 2 from Top to Bottom? Why did He say the temple would be destroyed, and He would build it in 3 days?

You all study with all your heart in the Torah, and that is good as far as learning goes, but my questions I asked from my earlier post still stand. What part of the Torah do you still keep? ALL or PART? Are you willing to sacrifice as soon as the new earthly temple is built? Paul says you can't KEEP part without keeping it ALL. They were Jewish people who kept Jewish traditions, customs and Torah.
While doing these things they became corrupted by corrupted leaders. So now that system being corrupted was done away with and a new and better one was established. This was done by God Himself. No man or priest or lawyer or rabbi could ever change the fact that Jesus the Christ was the final and completed sacrifice for the atonement of sin. Sin is defined in the Torah going back to the garden. Going back to Cain. Going back to Noah. All the way until the tablets of stone. There it is established by God Himself with His own Hand. We all know this now as it is forever written on ALL of our hearts in the temple of the body, if the body is His.
As a Christian we believe this, and hope the Glory and Spirit of God will indwell within us instead of on a mercy seat in a man made temple. This was promised by Jesus Himself as well. So what use do we have with old traditions, customs, and ordinances?

Having studied this in Hebrew and Greek, I cannot find without going to outside opinion ANYWHERE that a Gentile believer was to keep Torah, and ALL that entails.....show me.

[Steve Petersen]

See that makes perfect sense to me.

In what capacity does Torah now serve? If Jesus became the Torah, full filled it in His lifetime and death, in what capacity does the OC Jewish Torah now serve, since He established a NC with His "lost sheep" people FIRST and then with the Gentiles, not like the covenant of old, but a new one.
The OT and the NT speak of this new covenant, but what exactly is it? We find this in Hebrews, going back to the original promises of Abraham. We find it in Acts in the letter to the Gentiles, stating that Noadic Laws are now in force. We go back to what Jesus stated in His ministry. Not one tittle or jot will be changed until ALL is full filled. When was it full filled? Was it at all? Dying on the cross Jesus said it was finished. What was finished? Why was the temple veil rent in 2 from Top to Bottom? Why did He say the temple would be destroyed, and He would build it in 3 days?

You all study with all your heart in the Torah, and that is good as far as learning goes, but my questions I asked from my earlier post still stand. What part of the Torah do you still keep? ALL or PART? Are you willing to sacrifice as soon as the new earthly temple is built? Paul says you can't KEEP part without keeping it ALL. They were Jewish people who kept Jewish traditions, customs and Torah.
While doing these things they became corrupted by corrupted leaders. So now that system being corrupted was done away with and a new and better one was established. This was done by God Himself. No man or priest or lawyer or rabbi could ever change the fact that Jesus the Christ was the final and completed sacrifice for the atonement of sin. Sin is defined in the Torah going back to the garden. Going back to Cain. Going back to Noah. All the way until the tablets of stone. There it is established by God Himself with His own Hand. We all know this now as it is forever written on ALL of our hearts in the temple of the body, if the body is His.
As a Christian we believe this, and hope the Glory and Spirit of God will indwell within us instead of on a mercy seat in a man made temple. This was promised by Jesus Himself as well. So what use do we have with old traditions, customs, and ordinances?

Having studied this in Hebrew and Greek, I cannot find without going to outside opinion ANYWHERE that a Gentile believer was to keep Torah, and ALL that entails.....show me.
Let me direct you (if I have not already) to a series of sermons by Daniel Lancaster, Educational Director of First Fruits of Zion. They are on Hebrews and he addresses the OC/NC question.

Look for that series here under Audio Teachings: www.bethimmanuel.org

The essence of the sacrifices and priesthood of Yeshua versus the Temple system is that his is for the World to Come. The Jerusalem system is for This Present Age.

As for the NC, the idea is taken from Jeremiah and it is explicitly made with Israel and Judah, no mention of Gentiles:

Jer 31:31-36 (KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. 35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Has verse 34 happened yet? I have heard it said that there is an idea in Judaism of 'here, but not yet.' If this is true, then that could be said of the NC. It is here in part, but not complete.

[mpossoff]

Here are notes on Jeremiah and Ezekial from a study I did. It might be helpful.

It’s very sad that many people can quote or reference Jeremiah 31 as Hebrews has referenced it and yet not know the context of it.

This is the ONLY discussion in ALL of scripture in it’s completeness about the New Covenant other than the quote we read in Hebrews 8. One would think the New Covenant being SO important people would want to know EXACTLY what it means. And yet many have not. They haven’t even bothered to look it up. Is it possible if they did they would be shocked and even a little bit disappointed or very confused? Maybe not disappointed but confused.

Jer 31:23-37. You must read the preceding and proceding passages to get the context of the New Covenant.

Verse 23 God of Israel; Just in case you forgot who He is. He’s not the God of the USA, He’s not the God of Saudi Arabia, He’s not the God of Great Britain. He’s the God of Israel. He’s King of the universe nad it’s all His but He’s the God of Israel. That’s the only Name with regard to a people other than individuals that He’s ever given.

Verse 34 “For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more” How is God going to forgive their iniquity? That’s taking away sin isn’t it?

Verse 37 Apparently there is a who lot of people who read verses 31-34 only and don’t read the preceding and proceding verses. It’s very clear. This is speaking about Israel and Judah. Not a replacement for Israel and Judah. It’s very specific because it says , that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast. It’s speaking about DNA. You got the DNA? This is literally Israel. Who’s the New Covenant for? Israel and Judah period no additions. How do I have a hope if it’s without Israel and Judah? As Eph 2 says, you had no hope. There was no way you could be part of Israel, you don’t t have the ‘DNA’. Unless it’s by being united with the One who has the ‘DNA’. A Jewish Messiah why He remains Jewish is your only hope. Otherwise you have no hope. You can never be apart of this.

The New Covenant is one must be apart of Israel or you can’t be part of the New Covenant period.

Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke; Their fathers broke? They didn’t break it? Interesting choice of words. Why didn’t He say not like the one you broke? Their fathers broke. When did their fathers break it? Was it the golden calf? Was it maybe all the idolatry that followed after that? When did He say they broke it? When I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. When was that? I didn’t read that part. When did they break it then?

Jer 31: 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: That ought to get our attention after what days? What days is He speaking of? Jeremiah wrote this just before the Babylonian captivity or possibly during part of the early parts of the captivity. So it could be anytime. 500 years or so after Yeshua was born and that’s the time? That’s after those days. Could be anytime.

All that’s going to happen:

1- Torah is going to be written in their hearts and minds to obey it.
I’m sorry by the 2nd century the church says the Torah no longer needs to be in our hearts and minds, we should abandon it. That’s confusing.

Apparently that’s not a fulfillment of the New Covenant. If New Covenant was in effect in the 1st century somehow in the 2nd century it was no longer in effect because guess what? IT wasn’t in their hearts and minds.

2- I will be their God and they will be my people.
Who will be my people? Israel and Judah.

Apparently someone should have told the early church fathers because they casted Israel off saying they were ‘accursed’.

3- All will know God from the least to the greatest.
This has never happened. This is unfulfilled. It’s cleary unfulfilled. It’s not fulfilled at all except by having glimpses of it.

So can I be part of the New Covenant if it hasn’t been fulfilled? Or do I have to wait? Is this a dispensational thing? Hopefully some moment in the future it will be like BANG, OK now everybody can be part of the New Covenant. Is that how it happens?

What inaugurates the New Covenant? It is probably a good thing to say the cross. However when was the cross? Before the foundation of the world the Lamb was slain(Rev 13:8). So who is part of the New Covenant? Was there a moment where OK that’s it there’s a new way and you got to join the new way. OK I know you were apart of the old way, now you got to join the new way. Turn in your card and get a new card. Is that what happened? Is this a dispensational thing? This side of the cross that side of the cross. New way to do it.

As you will see in Hebrews 11 that’s not only absurd it’s actually spoken against because everyone listed is considered a ‘hero’ of the faith and they all preceded all. Where they part of the New Covenant? Absolutely!

The next time we look at the New Covenant is Ezekial 36 and 37. Now it doesn’t say New Covenant notice the uncanny resemblance with Jeremiah 31.

Ezekial 36:22-31

There is an irony. That the old covenant was taken away and the relationship was taken away from Israel and given to the ‘church’ because they broke God’s Law that now you can break God’s Law. In other words they blew it but now we don’t have to do that stuff anymore isn’t that a relief.

Verse 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. Reminds me of Zechariah 8 where it talks about ten men of the nations will grab the hem of one Jew and say take us, take us with you, you know the Lord. That’s when this will happen.

Verse 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. There we have again. A focus on being in the ‘land’. As part of the New Covenant.

Verse 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them How does this coralate back to Jer 31? He put’s His torah on their hearts. The Torah being written on tablets of stone , not bad, but now we have a new writing material, the heart. We’ve been breaking your Statutes, Torah judgements for a long time but now you’ll start doing them again.

Ezekial 37:12-28

Verse 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. This has never happened.

Verse 24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. This has never happened.

Verse 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. This has never happened.

Verse 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore This is the New Covenant

Verse 28 The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore. The best evangelical plan that ever was is God’s. At the end of the age everyone knows that He is God because of what He does with Israel.

All Israel is included in the New Covenant. Just like we saw in Jer 31.
1-taken out of the nations and brought to the land(Jer 31)
2-a new heart and a new people, Torah is going to be written on our hearts(Jer 31)
3-My people your God(Jer 31)
4-They will be repentant(Jer 31)
5-Cleanse of sin(Jer31)
6-David will be King over Israel forever.(Ez 37) King with a capitol K from the House of David, Messiah.
7-You will obey My statues and judgements(Jer 31)


What’s the sign? The Tabernacle amongst Israel forever Ez 37:28 The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore. Isn’t that ironic. When you go to chapter 9 of Hebrews he’s talking about a tabernacle. What is that a sign of?

In both Jer and Ez passages which goes away? Sin or the commandments? Sin goes away.Something gets abolished. The law of sin and death gets abolished. How can God’s righteous standards be abolished? Listen there is no sin if God’s righteous standards are abolished.That would be an easy way. Why doesn’t God just do that? That would be easier wouldn’t it? Nobody has to die. Just say That’s it doesn’t apply anymore. If God’s standards were that way then or He’d strike them dead, why would it be different now? He’s Holy. His Holiness is still defined the same way.

Deut 30:5-8 is the promise of the New Covevant within Torah itself. Something yet future.

Marc

[Tkjjc]

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Has verse 34 happened yet?

Yes it has, Praise be to Jesus..

John 15
7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.


So I ask you,,,who is the Teacher?

[Tkjjc]

There is an irony. That the old covenant was taken away and the relationship was taken away from Israel and given to the ‘church’ because they broke God’s Law that now you can break God’s Law. In other words they blew it but now we don’t have to do that stuff anymore isn’t that a relief.

If you remember what Paul wrote, he said that Jesus is the Vine...Israel was the original branches, and that Gentiles were grafted in. Who said anything about the House of Israel and the House of Judah being thrown aside?

Jesus is how we, as Gentiles, were able to be grafted into the original vine. Because blindness had hardened the hearts of the Jewish people of the day. Trying to compare us as Gentiles, to the Israelites of old isn't even a proper attempt. But as Gentiles, we became part of the body of Christ, with Christ at the head. Same with Israelites who believe in the death and resurrection of the Messiah.

Walking the righteous walk means you are walking in Divine Law. In other words you don't break God's Commandments, and this means ALL of them, right? But God's Commandments aren't the Torah. God's Commandments are just that, HIS. The Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible, right? Included in these books are numerous Commandments starting in the garden of Eden. As well as Promises, and Covenants, Statues and Ordinances. But does ALL of these pertain to the average Christian today? And if they do, what purpose do they serve?

Christ said to follow Him. His Commandments and yoke was easy, Love God first, and Love mankind second,,,and ALL that this entails. If we read ALL of the Commandments from Torah, these show that if we follow God by not breaking them, we have attained righteousness. But as Jesus told the rich man, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." This was being Perfected, as Jesus knew the man's heart
We follow out of Love, not for gain in the here and now, but in the life to come.

So what gain is there in the here and now to follow the OT Torah? Why not follow Jesus, and let the Father Teach us personally, instead of men and sermons, tapes, and studies? Is it because we don't have that one on One yet? I haven't as of yet, but I am still a sinner, who hasn't completely overcome sin. I am positive when that time happens, God will truly reveal Himself to me, and then I will receive Truth, as told by the One who is Truth.

Until then, I have His Word in black and white, retranslated over and over. It is up to those who are on a journey to discover the wonders of His Word, and in His Creation. It is truly beautiful, and magnificent. I Love God with ALL my heart, and I Love you all too.

With Respect,,,Tony

[BereanTodd]

If you remember what Paul wrote, he said that Jesus is the Vine...Israel was the original branches, and that Gentiles were grafted in.

Show us chapter and verse where Paul writes this, because he never did. JESUS at one point in the Gospels uses the metaphor of being "the true vine", in speaking about abiding.

Paul in Romans 11 does not mention a vine, but rather the olive tree, which is an OT symbol of Israel. The breaking out, grafting in (and grafting back in implied for the future) is in reference to the olive tree, and is completely separate in context and meaning from the "I am the vine". You are mixing up passages and not very effective in your exegesis here.


Christ said to follow Him. His Commandments and yoke was easy, Love God first, and Love mankind second,,,and ALL that this entails.

Those were not new commandments He gave, they were simply restatements of parts of the Law given to the Jews. They were basically direct OT quotes.

[mpossoff]

Yes it has, Praise be to Jesus..

John 15
7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.


So I ask you,,,who is the Teacher?

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Do ALL know Him from the least of them unto the greatest?

Remember the New Covenant is with Israel and Judah, no exceptions.

Does ALL of Israel and Judah 'know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them'?

Marc

[Tkjjc]

Show us chapter and verse where Paul writes this, because he never did. JESUS at one point in the Gospels uses the metaphor of being "the true vine", in speaking about abiding.

Paul in Romans 11 does not mention a vine, but rather the olive tree, which is an OT symbol of Israel. The breaking out, grafting in (and grafting back in implied for the future) is in reference to the olive tree, and is completely separate in context and meaning from the "I am the vine". You are mixing up passages and not very effective in your exegesis here.




Those were not new commandments He gave, they were simply restatements of parts of the Law given to the Jews. They were basically direct OT quotes.

Yes Berean you are right,,a olive tree in Romans 11,,,Jesus said He was the vine. I have those backwards, but still the story doesn't change.

John 15

1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.



And your point is what? I love how people jump to correct but don't offer much else. Shows true character. Why don't we leave the exegesis aside and work on the hermeneutics instead. Both story exemplify the same meaning.

[Tkjjc]

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Do ALL know Him from the least of them unto the greatest?

Remember the New Covenant is with Israel and Judah, no exceptions.

Does ALL of Israel and Judah 'know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them'?

Marc

You think there is some who haven't heard of God? The Bible is the most published book in history, so I would think that ALL peoples in ALL countries are knowing the Lord, and if they haven't, missionaries will be there soon. :)

[mpossoff]

You think there is some who haven't heard of God? The Bible is the most published book in history, so I would think that ALL peoples in ALL countries are knowing the Lord, and if they haven't, missionaries will be there soon. :)

That's not the point. To know Him is to obey Him.

So do ALL obey God?

Marc

[Tkjjc]

Those were not new commandments He gave, they were simply restatements of parts of the Law given to the Jews. They were basically direct OT quotes.

And who was it who gave this Law to the people in the OT? If I repeat myself because someone missed the point, so what. Jesus restated what the bottom line was. Love God and your neighbor. But lawyers like to dig up and make up new meanings in the law, to their advantage. Not out of love.

I know they weren't new Berean, way past that.

[Steve Petersen]

Yes it has, Praise be to Jesus..



So, everyone knows the Lord?

[Tkjjc]

That's not the point. To know Him is to obey Him.

So do ALL obey God?

Marc

As long as there is free will, and there is a old earth to exercise it in, that won't happen. That will happen when the adversary is taken out of the way, and we get a new heaven and a new earth.

[Steve Petersen]

That's not the point. To know Him is to obey Him.

So do ALL obey God?

Marc


Tim Hegg pointed out in 'What's So New About the New Testament?' that the word translated 'know' in many ancient cultures means 'to have covenant relationship with.' Interesting aside.

[Tkjjc]

Tim Hegg pointed out in 'What's So New About the New Testament?' that the word translated 'know' in many ancient cultures means 'to have covenant relationship with.' Interesting aside.


I do agree though that the "NT" isn't new, it is actually old from the foundations of the Earth. Jesus is the "Chief Corner Stone" upon which everything was made.

[BereanTodd]

And who was it who gave this Law to the people in the OT? If I repeat myself because someone missed the point, so what. Jesus restated what the bottom line was. Love God and your neighbor. But lawyers like to dig up and make up new meanings in the law, to their advantage. Not out of love.

But we're not talking about Talmud, or about making "new meanings" we are talking about the Law, the 613 commandments given by HaShem, to His people, and which have never been taken away.

[Tkjjc]

But we're not talking about Talmud, or about making "new meanings" we are talking about the Law, the 613 commandments given by HaShem, to His people, and which have never been taken away.

Those were given to the Israelites, under the house of Jacob. The Gentiles were never under obligation to follow all 613 laws. Why subject yourself under that which the Biblical fathers had a hard time following and was easily corrupted? In todays day and age you cannot kill people according to these laws, right? You have no temple in which to worship, right? Have you seen ALL 613? There is no longer the courts or judges of old. No more temple, and no more sacrifices. So please, tell me how many can actually be followed?

Gentiles and Jewish law

Judaism has always held that gentiles are obliged only to follow the seven Noahide Laws; these are laws that the Oral Law derives from the covenant God made with Noah after the flood, which apply to all descendants of Noah (all living people). The Noahide laws are derived in the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin 57a), and are listed here:
Murder is forbidden.
Theft is forbidden.
Sexual immorality is forbidden.
Eating flesh cut from a still-living animal is forbidden.
Belief in and worship or prayer to "idols" is forbidden.
Blaspheming against God is forbidden.
Society must establish a fair system of legal justice to administer law honestly.The details to these laws are codified from the Talmudic texts in the Mishneh Torah. They can be found mainly in chapter 9 and 10 of Hilkhoth Melakhim u'Milhamothehem in Sefer Shoftim of the Mishneh Torah.
Although not mentioning the Noahide Laws directly by name, the Christian convention of Apostles and elders in Jerusalem mentioned in Acts 15 appears to validate the idea that all gentiles follow the constraints established by the covenant of Noah. Supporting this idea, the list of constraints to be applied to the gentiles that are converted to Christianity, verse 15:20, is similar to the Noahide laws.

[Steve Petersen]

Those were given to the Israelites, under the house of Jacob. The Gentiles were never under obligation to follow all 613 laws. Why subject yourself under that which the Biblical fathers had a hard time following and was easily corrupted? In todays day and age you cannot kill people according to these laws, right? You have no temple in which to worship, right? Have you seen ALL 613? There is no longer the courts or judges of old. No more temple, and no more sacrifices. So please, tell me how many can actually be followed?

Gentiles and Jewish law

Judaism has always held that gentiles are obliged only to follow the seven Noahide Laws; these are laws that the Oral Law derives from the covenant God made with Noah after the flood, which apply to all descendants of Noah (all living people). The Noahide laws are derived in the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin 57a), and are listed here:
Murder is forbidden.
Theft is forbidden.
Sexual immorality is forbidden.
Eating flesh cut from a still-living animal is forbidden.
Belief in and worship or prayer to "idols" is forbidden.
Blaspheming against God is forbidden.
Society must establish a fair system of legal justice to administer law honestly.The details to these laws are codified from the Talmudic texts in the Mishneh Torah. They can be found mainly in chapter 9 and 10 of Hilkhoth Melakhim u'Milhamothehem in Sefer Shoftim of the Mishneh Torah.
Although not mentioning the Noahide Laws directly by name, the Christian convention of Apostles and elders in Jerusalem mentioned in Acts 15