Two Wittnesses

[Sabian]

What do you think about how this man looks at it?

The Two Witnesses, Who Are They?
This question has been dealt with by many, religious associations, generally with "their" own self-interpretation, so as to promote doctrinal thinking to suit "their" beliefs. Their conclusions can only be tested one way, and that is through the Written Word in Scripture.

We must first understand, Scripture does not contradict itself; Yahweh is not the author of confusion. The Word will not deceive, or trick those who obediently believe, But, be warned! The Word will become a "stumbling block" to those who intend to deceive, even those who are deceived by false teachings.

Almighty Father has given us all we need to know for our salvation through His Word, we must be truly grateful to Him for all the extra information He has revealed through His Son, and the prophetic Writings in the Sacred Scriptures with instructions, signs, and warnings of what is to come, which all adds to the proof of His very Existence.

Let us read in Scripture about these two witnesses:

Revelation 11: 1 John was given a measuring rod, and told by the angel to measure the Temple, the Altar, and those that worship therein. (Here we see as in other passages of Scripture, Judgment will begin at the Temple, read Ezekiel chapters 8 & 9, and note 9:4-6. Also note: 1st Peter 4:17)

2. But the court, and everything outside the Temple is not to be measured, for it is given to the Gentiles to tread under foot forty, and two months. (Three and a half years)

3. I will give power to My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy 1260 days in sackcloth. (This is the same period the witnesses will be preaching. Rev. 12:6.)

4. These are the two olive trees, and the two lamp stands which stand before the mighty one of the earth. (Here John gives meaning to the prophecy in Zechariah 4. John tells us who this mighty one is, Revelation 9:11, 13:4-15, who will be worshipped as the Almighty as explained again later)

5. If anyone attempts to kill these witnesses, they shall devour their attackers by fire which will come out of their mouths, and if any tries a particular way to kill them, in that manner they shall be killed.

6. They will have power to stop the rain all the days of their preaching, also turn water into blood, and smite the earth with all types of plagues, as often as they will. (a type of Moses and Aaron)

7. When they are finished preaching, (completed their job), the beast which came out of the pit, shall war with them, overpower them, and kill them.

8. Their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, spiritually called Sodom, and Egypt, where our Messiah was slain. (Jerusalem!)

9. And some people on the earth will see their dead bodies lying there for three, and a half days, and will not place them in graves.

10. All people on earth, shall rejoice, and make merry, and give one another gifts, because of their death.

11. After three and a half days, the Spirit of life from Yahweh entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them.

12. And they heard a great voice from heaven, saying; Come up hither, and they ascended in a cloud; in front of their enemies' eyes.

13. At that same moment, there was a great earthquake, and a tenth part of the city fell, seven thousand men were slain, and those left, were afraid and gave homage to the Almighty of heaven.

14. The second woe is past; look the third comes quickly.

Messiah's Words John recorded in the Book of Revelation, contains many symbols, and duel prophecies, mixed with direct literal warnings, and information for His people, which the rest of the world cannot, and will never understand until their spiritual blindness is healed. We read that even in the highest heavens there was no being who could open, or unlock this Book, except Messiah, the Lamb of Yahweh.

In dealing with prophecy there are specific factors which must be considered. #1 The time setting of the particular prophecy. #2 The place where it will happen. #3 Who or what is involved.

The time setting is very clear that these two witnesses do their Work during a sequence of events in the last days of man's rule on earth, and only after the opening of the Sixth Seal in Revelation. They appear on the scene three and a half years before the beginning of the Third and final Woe, which introduces the Second Coming of Messiah, when Yahshua Himself will perform Judgment on the earth. There is no way anyone living at this time could identify these two witnesses, who will be worthily qualified for this assignment. But when they appear believers will certainly know, and understand; yet the rest of the world will hate everything they stand for. That is why such rejoicing takes place when they are eventually killed. Their joy will be short lived, for we are told that three and half days later these witnesses are to be resurrected, this being at Messiah's Return.

The Word gives us a very clear clue as to where the witnesses will be completing their work, and finally be killed by the beast himself, Satan. Verse 8 tells us it will be where our Saviour Himself died, which was in Jerusalem. Being more specific, it was in a street (singular) in that great city (singular). Spiritually called Sodom (a symbol of immoral living) and Egypt (a symbol of total sin). Yet there is a Temple there. It is also prophesied that Jerusalem is to be trodden by the Gentiles at this period. We see most people in Jerusalem today do not recognize Yahshua as the Messiah; even mainstream Christian religions do not recognize the True Messiah.

Again the Word tells us that there are TWO witnesses, (Not two groups of witnesses) which speak out a warning to the religious leader who has assumed High priest of this worldly system. Note particularly verse 4 of the following:

2nd Thessalonians 2:1 Now we implore you, concerning the coming of our Master Yahshua the Messiah, and the gathering of His saints unto Him.

2. That you do not allow your minds to suddenly become unsettled, and thrown into confusion, neither by any revelation, or by a rumor you heard, or by a letter as coming from us, to the affect that the day of Yahweh is already here.

3. Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day will not come except there comes falling away (apostasy: rebellion against Yahweh: definite rejection of Yahweh) first, and the object of lawlessness is uncovered, the one who is doomed to destruction. (Daniel Chapter 11 )

4. Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly, and insolently against, and over all that is called by Yahweh, or that is worshipped, even to seat himself in the temple of Yahweh, and openly declaring himself as Yahweh.

5. Do you not remember, when I was yet with you, I told you of these things?

An important part of this prophecy to notice, is that of its duality, the witnesses being a type of Moses and Aaron, where they themselves stood before Pharaoh, the head of the system ruling at that period, and with the help of Yahweh they also called on plagues to befall Egypt.

Bringing all this into consideration, we are able to understand that the conclusions of sects who take on the responsibility of naming these witnesses do not in any way correspond with Scripture.

Looking at a few of their examples of what, or who they say the witnesses are, this becomes an interesting example of human reasoning:

Reincarnated Moses & Elijah: If they are resurrected as Spirits, how do they die?

The Old & New Testament: Have you heard of Writings being killed?

The Jews & the Christians: Neither follow Yahshua the Messiah!

The Catholics & World Council of Churches: Neither keep Yahweh's Laws!

A Reborn Jew, and a Christian: In Messiah there is only One Body!

Jehovah Witnesses named two men in the early years: But they are Dead!

World Wide Church of God named their leader & his son: The father has died!

And so they go on trying to satisfy themselves, according to human ingenuity. The world has not seen the end of this sort of speculation.

Let us look again into what we have been told though Scripture.

These particular witnesses will do Yahweh's bidding in the very last days, immediately before Messiah's Coming.

These Two Witnesses will have the gift of the Separated (Holy) Spirit, hence the symbol of the olive trees, and the two oil lamps standing before the deity of the earth. Olive trees supply the oil representing the Separated Spirit, and the lamps represent the two messengers being alive with the Spirit.

They will both be preaching using the True Names of the Eternal, and His Son, and applying all the laws of Yahweh, concerning the Sabbath, and the Sacred Days, according to the Word, and will confirm all their preaching in the authority of Yahshua the Messiah.

In conclusion:

True believers who hold Scripture as their absolute authority to guide them into the only "way of life", would not attempt to name, or guess who these witnesses are going to be. As we have seen in the past with those who do such things only lead to self esteem on the part of the sect, or persons involved. True believers know that these witnesses, who ever they are, will be revealed by our Almighty Father in His Time, as the last days approach.

Almighty Father's people are to stay alert at all times, keeping close to the Word of Yahweh in obedience, and prayer, and to Watch out on the developments happening on the earth at all times, especially now as the final day of man's rule is fast approaching. I repeat, Yahweh will reveal these two Witnesses in His time.

Just pray, should you be preserved at this time, that you will be backing, and encouraging these servants of Yahweh, and not belong to those of the world who will not be able to tolerate or comprehend their preaching, and wish them dead.

Yahweh be with you in your studies of His Word, in Yahshua the Messiah's Great Name.

Compiled by: Lionel C. Gets

[AnthonyForChrist]

Reincarnated Moses & Elijah is the most popular belief it seems?

[SonWorshipper]

I just read Zachariah 4 again and the L-rd really showed me something here. It says:



12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.



This is what the L-rd showed me:



There are two branches mentioned ( not trees as in 4:3 where it says TREES) filling the Menorah with oil, the

"oil of the Spirit"? ( see the Messianic seal for more on this).



Now they are both olive branches but I think that one is a natural olive branch and the other is a wild olive branch and coincides with Romans 11:24 Therefore my conclusion is that the two witnesses are as in Jew and Gentile, ONE in Messiah ( Menorah).

[AnthonyForChrist]

Therefore my conclusion is that the two witnesses are as in Jew and Gentile, ONE in Messiah ( Menorah).
The unification of peoples under Messiah, with the conversion of the Jews (144,000?).

[SonWorshipper]

I really was hoping that Simchat Torah and sojeru ( and perhaps henaynei ) would chime in with their thoughts on this?

:)

[sojeru]

many of the questions are answered by my very close friend in which i agree with so far.
www.israelthebride.org (http://www.israelthebride.org)

the main page for the two branches is this:
http://israelthebride.org/beliefs.htm
this goes into many aspects
yehezkiel 37 and many more

[SonWorshipper]

THANKS SOJERU!

[Superman]

Enoch is another popular opinion for one of the witnesses.

I doubt it is a literal reincarnation of two of the old prophets. God said He would send Elijah to prepare the way of the Messiah. When John the Baptist was asked "Are you Elijah?" he said "No." As far as he knew, he was John. But Jesus said John was the Elijah that was to come... So I take that to mean that the original prophecy was designating a "type" of Elijah, not actually a reincarnated Elijah coming... The same is probably true for the 2 witnesses.

[sojeru]

the two witnesses are NOT TWO MEN.
however, they are TWO TYPES OF MEN(collectively)

[koilias]

Yes two types of people, collectively.

When Israel stood before HaShem at Sinai, they stood as "ONE MAN", the Torah says.

In order to judge the world, HaShem first requires two witnesses, to testify of its murderous deeds. Two collective people, unified.

[sojeru]

agreed kolias
you know that your name has a Hebrew exact to it right?
KoliYoh(voice[cry] of Yk)

[koilias]

I never thought of my name that way...I would certainly not claim that authority! But I do long for His voice to ring in my heart. I named myself that because I want to drink from the springs of Yeshuah's heart! LOL...it makes sense that Yeshuah's inward parts (Koilias--Hb: Me'im) are the source of God's Cry.

[SonWorshipper]

Sojeru, just so I have this straight, who are these two groups of people? Is there any relevance to Revelation 12:17?

[sojeru]

apocapyse12 is a retelling of THE STORY and prophecy.

[SonWorshipper]

sojeru you can be so maddeningly ambiguous at times, but I love ya :hug:

Remember we aren't the only ones that read these posts. ;)

[israelthebride]

The Broken BRANCHES of ISRAEL

JER 11:16 YH’SHWH called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form. But with the roar of a mighty storm HE will set it on fire, and its branches will be broken.

JER 11:17 Almighty YH’SHWH, who planted you, has decreed disaster for you, because the House of ISRAEL and the House of YEHUDAH have done evil and provoked me to anger by burning incense to Baal.

______


RO 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the gentiles (Greek: helenists; unbelievers) to make ISRAEL envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the unbelievers, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

RO 11:13 I am talking to you gentiles (Greek: helenists; unbelievers). Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the gentiles (Greek: helenists; unbelievers), I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as FIRSTFRUITs is HOLY, then the whole batch is HOLY; if the ROOT is HOLY, so are the BRANCHES.

RO 11:17 If some of the BRANCHES have been broken off, (Jeremiah 11:16) and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive ROOT, 18 do not boast over those BRANCHES. If you do, consider this: You do not support the ROOT, but the ROOT supports you. 19 You will say then, "BRANCHES were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by FAITH. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if YHWH did not spare the original BRANCHES (in Jeremiah 11:16), he will not spare you either.

RO 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of YHWH: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in HIS kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for YHWH is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the other BRANCHES, be grafted into their own olive tree!

RO 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: ISRAEL has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the gentiles (Greek: helenists; unbelievers) has come in 26 so ALL of ISRAEL will be saved, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
HE will take godlessness away from Jacob.


RO 11:27 And this is MY COVENANT with them
when I take away their sin."

_______


ZEC 4:11 Then I asked the angel, "What are these TWO OLIVE BRANCHES on the right and the left of the lampstand?"

ZEC 4:12 Again I asked him, "What are these TWO OLIVE BRANCHES beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?"

ZEC 4:13 He replied, "Do you not know what these are?"
"No, my lord," I said.


ZEC 4:14 So he said, "These are the TWO who are ANNOINTED to serve the MASTER of all the earth."
__________
REV 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

REV 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.



REV 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.



REV 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.



REV 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.



REV 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.



REV 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.



REV 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.



REV 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.



REV 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

_______


The BRANCHES were broken off. (Jeremiah 11:16)

The BRANCHES will come together. (Romans 11)

The BRANCHES are prophesised to become ONE. (Zechariah 4) (Revelation 11)
_______


All of YH’SHWH’s PEOPLE

All

who submit to YH'SHWH'S GRACE, YH’SHWH’s SALVATION,

through HIMSELF as MESSIAH, and to YH’SHWH’s HOLY

SPIRIT and HIS WORD/LAW (Genesis to Revelation) are

YH’SHWH’s PEOPLE;

And must be grafted

into HIS BODY, HIS PEOPLE.


YH’SHWH’s PLAN:


Romans 11:25 Until “the full number” of unbelievers come in (into ISRAEL, HIS PEOPLE)

Romans 11:26 “so that ALL of ISRAEL will be SAVED”!!!
__________


JER 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.



JER 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
__________


WE are ONE PEOPLE!!!


WE are YH’SHWH's PEOPLE!!!

WE are ONE!!!

LOVE, RICOEL

[sojeru]

Thanks much Ricoel

HaShem bless you

Beseder

[ImAHebrew]

Shalom All,

I like to look at things in a spiritual/symbolic sense. To understand the Spiritual, one must FIRST look at the physical. The Two Witnesses’ identity are revealed by looking at the physical (physical Israel). Within the history of physical Israel, there were two physical temples (Solomon’s & Zerubbabel’s). The first temple (Solomon’s) is a picture or shadow of the 1st Apostolic Assembly that existed in the 1st century AD. This Spiritual Temple testified to the world as a faithful witness. Their testimony was the True Gospel according to the Word of Elohim. In essense, their testimony was the Witness or Word of El which Yahweh made THROUGH them. Their stand in the Word was in actuality, Yahweh witnessing to the world, and this is verified to us by what Yahweh wrote through the prophet Micah: Micah 1:2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let Yahweh Elohim be witness against you, Yahweh from his holy temple.Yahweh does witness against/to this world through or from His temple. His Spiritual Temple is the Body of Yahshua. It is the expressed goal or commission of Yahshua’s Body to witness to the world (Matt 28:19). This is what the 1st Assembly did: Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; The Gospel is the testimony of the Witnesses. The 1st Witness gave it’s testimony, and then followed Yahshua. They were martyred. The 1st Witness died. Just as the 1st physical temple was destroyed, so also, the 1st Spiritual Temple/Witness was destroyed. Not one Living stone was left upon another. The destruction of the Assembly came as a result of confusion/Babylon. This is evidenced to us by what the Apostle Paul warned to the Assembly at Ephesus. He warned with tears for 3 years that the flock would not be spared:Acts 20: 29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock; This destruction of the Temple was complete. The 1st Witness was put to death. But before Yahweh can enter into judgment with this world, there has to be a 2nd Witness. This world must hear again the True Gospel of Elohim. This is why a 2nd physical temple was constructed (Zerubbabel’s). The Spirit is showing us that a 2nd (leg/arm) of Yahshua’s Body must be brought back from confusion/Babylon to give a testimony that is according to the Word of Elohim. The world must hear the True Gospel a 2nd time, and it will be given by those who are of Yahshua's Body, those who have come forth out of confusion. Zerubbabel’s name is interpreted as “to flow forth from Babel.” Yahweh wants His 2nd Temple/Witness to flow forth or come out of confusion. This is what the Spirit wants us to hear and see. May we all have good spiritual hearing and sight.

Blessings in The Name,

ImAHebrew

[israelthebride]

You are correct in saying that YH'SHWH is our physical TEMPLE.
And WHO is HIS BODY?
____________

According to those who call themselves Jews, of this world:


Judaism, unlike the Christianity, does not believe that the Messiah is Jesus.

The noun moshiach (translated as messiah) annotatively means "annointed one;" it does not, however, imply "savior." The notion of an innocent, semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought or scripture. In Judaic texts, the term messiah was used for all kings, high priests, certain warriors, but never eschatological figures. In the Tanach, moshiach is used 38 times: two patriarchs, six high priests, once for Cyrus, 29 Israelite kings such as Saul and David. Not once is the word moshiach used in reference to the awaited Messiah. Even in the apocalyptic book of Daniel, the only time moshiach is mentioned is in connection to a murdered high priest. The Dead Sea Scrolls, the Pseudepigrapha, and Apocrypha never mention the Messiah.

The man destined to be the Messiah will be a direct descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1) through the family of Solomon, David's son (1 Chronicles 22:9-l0). He will cause all the world to serve God together (Isaiah 11:2), be wiser than Solomon (Mishnah Torah Repentance 9:2), greater than the patriarchs and prophets (Aggadah Genesis 67), and more honored than kings (Mishnah Sanhedrin 10), for he will reign as king of the world (Pirkei Eliezer).
____________

Amongst the most basic missions that the Messiah will accomplish during his lifetime (Isaiah 42:4) are to:

Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple, in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt (Michah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45)

Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)

Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and Zephaniah 3:9)

Bring about global peace throughout the world (Isaiah 2:4; 11:5-9 and Michah 4:3-4).
____________

There are over a dozen additional prophecies which the Messiah will also achieve (there is no mention of any “second coming” in the Tanach or the New Testament). In order to avoid identifying the wrong individual as Messiah, the Code of Jewish Law dictates criteria for establishing the Messiah's identity (Mishnah Torah Kings 11:4):

"If a king arises from the House of David who meditates on the Torah, occupies himself with the commandments as did his ancestor King David, observes the commandments of the Written and Oral Law, prevails upon all Israel to walk in the way of the Torah and to follow its direction, and fights the wars of God, it may be assumed that he is the Messiah.

If he does these things and is fully successful, rebuilds the Third Temple on its location, and gathers the exiled Jews, he is beyond doubt the Messiah. But if he is not fully successful, or if he is killed, he is not the Messiah."
____________


This is the belief of ISRAEL, the BRIDE of YH'SHWH Ministry:
WE, MESSIAH'S BODY / HIS BRIDE /

HIS Third TEMPLE,

are responsible to move

as HIS BODY, here on earth,

and accomplish these things

to get ourselves ready for HIS RETURN.


Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple, in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt (Michah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45)

Gather ALL HIS PEOPLE from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)

Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and Zephaniah 3:9)

Then the 1,000 years

Bring about global peace throughout the world (Isaiah 2:4; 11:5-9 and Michah 4:3-4).


WE are ONE!!!

LOVE, RICOEL
____________

WE,
ISRAEL, the BRIDE of YH'SHWH Ministry,
Believe that WE,
HIS BODY / HIS BRIDE / HIS PEOPLE,
are HIS Third TEMPLE.

YH'SHWH is the HOLY of HOLIES.

[ImAHebrew]

Shalom Israelthebride,

First of all, I must thank you for your friendship with my brother Spying. Then secondly, thank you for responding to me, if indeed you did. Your post was just 33 minutes after mine so I suspect you were speaking to me. But I was a little puzzled. I don't recall saying what you quoted me as saying:
You are correct in saying that YH'SHWH is our physical TEMPLE.I'm not trying to be contentious here, but I did not try to infer that YH'SHWH is our physical TEMPLE. Where or how did you glean that out of what I wrote? It's just the opposite. The main theme of what I wrote portrayed that the PHYSICAL temples (Solomon's and Zerubbabel's) were types/shadows of the Spiritual Temple (Yahshua's Body/The Assembly). The first physical temple (Solomon's) was a type or shadow of the first Apostolic Assembly (The Church/Temple which was built upon the Mashiach/Prophets/Apostles/ect...1st century AD). The second physical temple was a type or shadow of the Assembly/Church which is built by the exiles that are returning from Babylon/confusion. This Spiritual Assembly/Temple is being built in OUR timeframe, at or right before the return of Mashiach.

Concerning your question:
And WHO is HIS BODY?His Body is comprised of those who are controlled by the Head, and then continue in following His directives.

Concerning a Third Temple. There may very well be a third physical temple built, and if there is, it will be a type or shadow of the Third Spiritual Temple. The timeframe for a Third Spiritual Temple (in my opinion), would take place AFTER the 1000 year rest of the 7th day Shabbat.

Please let me know if I haven't made my thoughts on this clear enough? :blush:

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

[Inlove]

You'll need to back up a verse are need start with the first verse in Rev.11
Seek G-d when talking about this, who knows a mans heart but a mans spirit
there is something much more to it in the first two verses

[ImAHebrew]

Shalom Inlove,

Were you speaking with me? If you were, what exactly were you trying to say? I'm not sure I followed you. Did you understand what I wrote?

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

[Inlove]

No i wasn't really talking to you but to everyone. This isn't really about the two wittnesses but about Rev.11. Ending of last year G-d show this to me and it was cool stuff so i thought I would share it with you'll since its about this chapter in Revelation.

I was given a reed like a measureing rod and was told,"Go and measure the temple of G-d and the altar, and count the worshipers there. Rev.11:1
(The first two verse in this chapter is talking about worship. I was given a reed like a measureing rod. What is the only thing that we can measure are self by, Jesus. See not just are life should be measure but are worship to G-d should also be measure. And G-d is calling for a deeper worship in this verse. whats cool about this verse is how John is being called to measure its just like Ezekiel being called to preach against the Israelites cause of there rebellious nature. See we are the temple that is to be measure and the worshiper that are to be counted.)

But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. Rev.11:2
(we might be Gentiles by birth but if you are saved then you are a Jew by the covent of Christ. And when this happens there will be this people that are lost that will be leading worship, and they will trample on the holy city.)

Now in these verse G-d has show two thing. One the lost will be given the outer courts and the holy city will be trample on by them. Two that G-d is rasing up leaders of deeper worship maybe in music or maybe in the way we live are lifes. That this lost leaders want be able to get to the inner court but the worshiper G-d is raising up will be leaders to the inner courts (a deeper worship). I hope that makes sence.

[Rafael]

I know this doesn't completely explain, but it does make one think that the scenes we are seeing on TV may be associated to groups of people instead of individuals. Two witnesses - Christians and Jews are the only two groups of people that follow after the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Events in Israel have accelerated since the Six Day War of 1967, which I believe may have marked the end of the time of the Gentiles that Jesus mentioned, and Paul referred to as the fulness of Gentiles to come in.

[justify]2. But the court, and everything outside the Temple is not to be measured, for it is given to the Gentiles to tread under foot forty, and two months. (Three and a half years)
I interpret this as days = years, and the time of the Gentiles which was fulfilled after the 1967 Six Day War.

Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Ezekiel 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

688AD is the date the building of the Dome of the Rock started and spans 42 months = 1278.34 days. 1967AD - 1278.34 days = 688.66AD.
1967AD is the time of the fullness of Gentiles ended or when the Six Day war resulted in the first time the Jews had control of Jerusalem in 2,573 yrs.

Luke 21:21-24 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

[israelthebride]

Raphe says,
"Two witnesses - Christians and Jews are the only two groups of people that follow after the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."

Please read this post concerning the TRUE Jews and the TRUE Christians.

http://www.christianforums.com/t78479

LOVE, RICOEL

[Flavius]

And there was givin me a reed like unto a rod and the angel stood saying rise,
and measure the temple of G-d and the alster,and them that worship therein.
But the court wich is without the temple leave out, and measure it not,for it is givin to the gentiles and the Holy city shall they tread underfoot forty and 2 months.



It said don't count the people in the outer court,don't measure it.


verse 3- and I will give power unto my two witnesses{Holy place,Holy of Holies} and they shall prophecy 1260 days.these are the two olive trees..

If the temple represents your walk with Hashem then the people who spiritually reside in the temple proper are the two witnesses and those without are gentiles.Like the people in Revelation who are without the Holy city and considered Gentiles because the gentile court stands outside the Temple proper.But these didn't die and the leaves of the trees were for healing the nations.

[blessed2]

[blessed2]

I think the thoery or the witnesses being 2 spacific people comes from the verse in Hebrews that say:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die...

But there were only 2 men who we know, that never died.

Elijah: was taken up in a chariot of fire.
God said He would send Elijah to prepare the way of the Messiah. and the 2 witnesses do prepare the way for the second comming I suppose.

And Enoch: who walked with G-d and was no more upon the earth.

[Flavius]

[QUOTE=israelthebride]Raphe says,
"Two witnesses - Christians and Jews are the only two groups of people that follow after the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."

There are 2 kingdoms Northern and Southern.A man had 2 sons,one stayed home with Torah and one called torah a starnge thing and mingled with swine and became as a dead man.This man decided to return only to be one of his fathers slaves so that he could be called by his fathers name.

Joshuah of Ephraim son of none and Caleb a prince of Judah.

Moses sons. Gershom{stranger} , Eliezer-son of my house.

Both gentiles and jews must enter into the court of gentiles to reach the holy place. The two witnesses are those gentiles and Jews who reside in the
temple proper and know who Hashem is.

[Flavius]

:rolleyes:

[TasManOfGod]

the two witnesses are NOT TWO MEN.
however, they are TWO TYPES OF MEN(collectively)
Yes I believe this too
I have done much study on this issue (and others concerning end time events)
I believe each branch of the lampstand (menorah) represent seven covenants made with God (light shining on the world)
That means that the two witnesses actually mean 2 covenant peoples
I have come to the conclusion (by other passages) that the two covenants are the ones made with Isaac and Jacob. These are two that lay dead in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days (or 3500 years)
I can elaborate further if any interested

[ShirChadash]

Yes I believe this too
I have done much study on this issue (and others concerning end time events)
I believe each branch of the lampstand (menorah) represent seven covenants made with God (light shining on the world)
That means that the two witnesses actually mean 2 covenant peoples
I have come to the conclusion (by other passages) that the two covenants are the ones made with Isaac and Jacob. These are two that lay dead in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days (or 3500 years)
I can elaborate further if any interestedPlease do, TasMan. Also, why 3 1/2 = 3500 ? That's new to me... I'd love to hear more of your views. :)

[visionary]

I have been following this interesting thread....I love the fact that more and more the study into this portion of Revelation is holding the attention of God's children. What is also so wonderful is that there is more and more light shed on this time peiod as the curtain rises. What we see before us........the calendar is telling us that we are fast approaching the end of time.....the nation, Israel, by its very existence, tells us that we are fast approaching the end of time. By the nations forming alliances, in manners that resemble prophecy we are see there has to be something a foot that the Lord wants us to understand. By the Islamic Jhad, a religious war, that will soon gulf the world into a war of strife, like it has never seen.. European nations giving in, thinking that this will apease the terrorists??? When a god goes on the war path and wants the territory of another, which in this case is where our God said is His, I believe that we will see more things happen in rapid order.

SIDE NOTE It is interesting that I heard on the radio the other day, the concern over the wailing wall crumbling....is this another event of prophecy.

The events in the sky that you mentioned were very interesting, as in signs of the times?

We have yet as you pointed out, no two witnesses, which I think one Messianic Jew (by blood) and one Gentile believer in the Messiah will indeed unit the believers while at the same time cause everything to a head. At this point we do not have a great imitation of Jesus Christ either. So we have a few more players to get on stage before the curtain opens for the grand finally.

The fact that great imitation of Jesus Christ (the one who wants the throne of God) is the executor of the two witnesses sounds about right. That should about divide the wheat from the chaff forever. Talk about a center stage event....we have an imitation of earth and we have two witnesses pointing to the true in heaven, and at the day of atonement that is where the two goats that look identical are ceremonial prophectically brought into the picture. Makes sense to me.

I believe that in order to see Revelation clearly we need to see the ceremonial feasts, Jubilee, and the events, players all on stage. I do believe we are not far from it.....Is that not the orchestra warming up???.

[TasManOfGod]

Just a few points
The 3 1/2 days is a "guarded " way of revealing a time frame of 3500 years based on 2Pet_ 3:8, Ps_90:4
I have spoken about this on different threads. My fundamental understanding is that ALL of Revelation reveals God's plan to "tie up all the loose ends" of ALL the covenants that He has made - I say seven in all (made with: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David) Hence all the sevens ie an angel, lamp, assembly( aka churches), trumpet, seal, bowl etc are assigned to each one.
The plan is that God will receive each to Himself (by resurrection) -the last (new) being first and the first (Adam) last.
There is so much there that fits in perfectly particularly as far as OT is concerned (ie the 7 feasts)

[theseed]

Enoch is another popular opinion for one of the witnesses.

I doubt it is a literal reincarnation of two of the old prophets. God said He would send Elijah to prepare the way of the Messiah. When John the Baptist was asked "Are you Elijah?" he said "No." As far as he knew, he was John. But Jesus said John was the Elijah that was to come... So I take that to mean that the original prophecy was designating a "type" of Elijah, not actually a reincarnated Elijah coming... The same is probably true for the 2 witnesses.
Elijah and Enoch never died, so they don't have to be reincarnated. :scratch:

[visionary]

I would not want to return to earth in its last stages of history...when the tribulations are the worse this world has even seen, and God has to shorten it or their would be no one saved, not even the elect. GOd would not sent two that have spent so much time with Him in heaven back until this place is cleaned up. Therefore I prayerfully submit that the spirit in which those two preached, will again be given unto two who will give the last call for salvation to this old world.

[visionary]

[blessed2]

If I was Enoch or Elijah



I would not want to return to earth in its last stages of history...when the tribulations are the worse this world has even seen, and God has to shorten it or their would be no one saved, not even the elect. GOd would not sent two that have spent so much time with Him in heaven back until this place is cleaned up. Therefore I prayerfully submit that the spirit in which those two preached, will again be given unto two who will give the last call for salvation to this old world.
Why not? Did he not send His own son to die as he did for us?
And wouldn't you, for the glory of G-d and for the sakes of others?
This life and all that is suffered here is temporary....heaven everlasting.

[visionary]

Why not... because I understand it differently....
Prophesy states as does Yeshua that it is the spirit of Elijah, like it was in John the Baptist for "the great" which is the first time and "dreadful" which is the second coming.
Is 61:1,2....read by Yeshua in Luke 4:18-19
Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Yeshua goes on to explain in Luke 4:24-27. and what Yeshua thinks of John, the Baptist....Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Matthew 17:12,13 And Yeshua answered and said unto them....Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. Luke 11:14

Yeshua has answered the question regarding the Elijah of prophecy. By the same spirit, prophecy was fulfilled by a man in the first coming of Elijah for the "great" so also will it be that the "dreadful" that we have a man in the spirit of Elijah speaking to the world denouncing the gods of this world and giving the world its last chance to worship the true God of Israel. By that same token, it follows that these two witnesses have the same task before them. They have to denounce the gods of this world, and call for repentence and worship of the true God of Israel, the true God who created us all

[Henaynei]

then in what way will this person be recognizable as "like Eliyahu?"

[theseed]

I would not want to return to earth in its last stages of history...when the tribulations are the worse this world has even seen, and God has to shorten it or their would be no one saved, not even the elect. GOd would not sent two that have spent so much time with Him in heaven back until this place is cleaned up. Therefore I prayerfully submit that the spirit in which those two preached, will again be given unto two who will give the last call for salvation to this old world.

For the sake of argument, they might not have a choice, they would come because God would send them, however, we read no where that Enoch would return, do we?

You might not want the job, but if God sent you, would you not go?

[TasManOfGod]

It is interesting that from Rev ch 11 the "two witnesses" are considered as individuals (by a majority of commentaries) whereas for ch12 it has not been considered that the "woman" is an individual. Would not a degree of consistency be expected here?

[visionary]

woman... there are two in Revelation and one of them is in Rev 12...and by the disciption...you know that this is the faith that bears Jesus and is hunted down by Satan....The other is in Rev 17 and "the angel said unto me, wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns......verse 18 "and the woman which thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." which is of another faith.

By interpretation....the woman is symbolic and by the the angel who discribes the mystery explains who they are. By their actions are we to know who is symbolically representated here in Revelation.

By the same token the two olive trees and the two candlesticks which are the two witnesses which represent the character in the spirit of the Lord warn the world of the last day events. Those that have gone before have been Moses, Elijah, and others who in the face of overwhelming odds, stood before the Pharoah/King of Babylon/Baal worshippers, and with power from on High challenged the evil spirits of their day. We see that the son of perdition is what the two witnesses go up against in the last day and based upon the prophecies, we look forward to people of God to stand up in the breach. We expect that there will be two that stand out and are beheaded for it, and their dead bodies shall lie in the street and be ressurrected on the third day.

[TheScottsMen]

woman... there are two in Revelation and one of them is in Rev 12...and by the disciption...you know that this is the faith that bears Jesus and is hunted down by Satan....The other is in Rev 17 and "the angel said unto me, wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns......verse 18 "and the woman which thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." which is of another faith.

By interpretation....the woman is symbolic and by the the angel who discribes the mystery explains who they are. By their actions are we to know who is symbolically representated here in Revelation.

By the same token the two olive trees and the two candlesticks which are the two witnesses which represent the character in the spirit of the Lord warn the world of the last day events. Those that have gone before have been Moses, Elijah, and others who in the face of overwhelming odds, stood before the Pharoah/King of Babylon/Baal worshippers, and with power from on High challenged the evil spirits of their day. We see that the son of perdition is what the two witnesses go up against in the last day and based upon the prophecies, we look forward to people of God to stand up in the breach. We expect that there will be two that stand out and are beheaded for it, and their dead bodies shall lie in the street and be ressurrected on the third day.
Amen

[visionary]

Can you imagine what this will do to the Jewish people in Jerusalem, with two witnesses, who in the power of Elijah and Moses (both challenged the gods that were in control of the minds of the people) and have the power to smite the earth with ALL PLAGUES, AS OFTEN AS THEY WILL....cracking the barrier that has kept the two faith apart, that which is the Torah and Yeshua and re-uniting the nation of Israel with the believers in the last round-up.

Imagine for a moment, you are in Jerusalem, two witnesses are prophesing and are doing the mighty works of Elijah and Moses, preparing the way for the true King, Yeshua to come. Imagine their surprise that these two testify to the testimony of Yeshua and the Torah....Maybe at this time, the ark of the covenant is found by the two witnesses, to help with truth in the minds of all the world and the nation of Israel.

With God fighting the battle against this Imitation of Yeshua, that son of perdition, that is fooling the world, trying to convince the world that he belongs on the throne in Jerusalem, these two witnesses have been called forward to stand in the gap.

Two witnesses with the power from on High to meet the challenge of such a mighty evil angel, who has the power do kill ten thousand with the sweep of His hand, travels at the speed of lightening, has brightness instead of holiness, and can quote scripture for His own purposes.

How is that for a climax to world history, church traditions, and fulfillment to prophecy?

[TasManOfGod]

visionary
If I said to you "there is a witness on earth today taking God's word to the people" Who do you think that I would be talking about - Billy Graham, the Pope Benny Hinn who would that witness be?

[visionary]

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

As far as Billy Graham can witness to truth, is as far as he can be a witness...., but what is required of these two witnesses, is not pleasing to man, will bring on division, and will infuriate churches worldwide, and will open the door to the true seeker of truth so that can become free from the cages of understandings that they and their families have been held in under over the milliniums. We are talking about a revelation so mind blowing, so soul searching awaking, that it comes across like Moses in the Pharoah's court, like Elijah before the baal priests, like Jesus in the temple.

The preaching of the dreadful day, is omen of what is to come, it is the harbengar of the soon to come to pass and it is not nice. To be able to "smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will" means that they are getting tough, they are playing rough, and the gloves have come off. This is very serious business the two witnesses are doing. They also are given 42 months, three and 1/2 years to accomplish the task before they are killed. So when they appear on the human radar, they are coming out swinging, and it will be a bloody fight. Scathing rebukes will coming out of their mouths. They will hold nothing back. They are to make the way straight. They know how narrow it is and they are going to proclaim it much to the dismay of the world.

[TasManOfGod]

what is required of these two witnesses, is not pleasing to man,That's why I included Benny Hinn :)

[visionary]

That's why I included Benny Hinn :)
:) so that was what the sly smile is about..... :P ^_^ ...for a second I thought you might be serious....but I believe you are too smart for that.
:wave: Visionary

[TasManOfGod]

My point is that God's witness today is the Church. You say that the devil will cause great problems in these days to come. True but wont this be the same devil that we have to deal with today. Does he not operate all over the world as he will in the days of the "two witnesses" as the scriptures say? What will make him so much more difficult to deal with in days to come than he does now. Is God going to give him more power? To me it is beyond compehension that two people, no matter what spiritual condition they may be in, have the ways and means of dealing with the works of darkness all over the world. Isn't this even beyond what Jesus could do in Jerusalem prior to the crucifixion
No - the witnesses have to be groups of people - two of His covenant peoples that He has restored since He had taken others out of the way at that time

[visionary]

The term son of perdition....is set aside for Satan himself. This has been what he has wanted from the beginning. The "I wills" in Isaiah. That is the pinacle of Satan's career. That is also the climax of earth's history. What we have experienced so far in the spiritual battle, is nothing compared to what it will be when "they had a king over them which is the angel of the bottomless pit,"Rev 9:11.

[theseed]

The term son of perdition....is set aside for Satan himself. This has been what he has wanted from the beginning. The "I wills" in Isaiah. That is the pinacle of Satan's career. That is also the climax of earth's history. What we have experienced so far in the spiritual battle, is nothing compared to what it will be when "they had a king over them which is the angel of the bottomless pit,"Rev 9:11.
Judas was called the son of perdition.

[visionary]

Good example.....such a traitor....just like Satan will be charged with treason.

[visionary]

I just found another verse that indicates that the people pick up on the spirit of Moses in taking them out of the land of Egypt (sin).


Revelation 15
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.These people are all of the last days to get over the beast, his image and his mark. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. These have experienced the seals and trumpets of God and have repented.5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: They see the Torah in Heaven in the Temple.

[theseed]

perdition

\Per*di"tion\, n. [F., fr. L. perditio, fr. perdere, perditum, to ruin, to lose; per (cf. Skr. par[=a] away) + -dere (only in comp.) to put; akin to Gr. ?, E. do. See Do (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=do).] 1. Entire loss; utter destruction; ruin; esp., the utter loss of the soul, or of final happiness in a future state; future misery or eternal death.

The mere perdition of the Turkish fleet. --Shak.

If we reject the truth, we seal our own perdition. --J. M. Mason.

2. Loss of diminution. [Obs.] --Shak.


Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=00-database-info&db=web1913): Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc

[blessed2]

Why not... because I understand it differently.... I understand that. What I was saying "why not" too was this statement you made.

GOd would not send two...you said ....because

.... that have spent so much time with Him in heaven back . My point was not to contend your understanding of the prophecy but rather a question
as too why would he not send these two.....He sent His own son.
He did not wait until...

until this place is cleaned upHe sent Him to clean it up.

I really don't know enough about it to be able to inject any info on the topic itself.
I'm really just reading and learning. When I saw your post, I was curious as to "why not".

[visionary]

John the Baprist was the Elijah of the first coming, the question you asked is the same one they asked Yeshua regarding Elijah is John and Yeshua cleared the matter up then with them. I see, and understand the spirit of Elijah in another person for the dreadful part of prophecy as John the Baptist was the spirit of Elijah for the first coming.

[IsraelSarah]

from Revelation 11 and Zechariah 4 -John3 and Matthew11,17 Mark 10
and Proverbs 30

the two olive trees are not any of the old testament prophets or witnesses Scriptural proof: John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but "He" that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven" this scripture uses "He" meaning exclusively that He is the only one that will come down from heaven...(Enoch and Elijah ascended but remember Paul talks about a third heaven) they were ascended but not to the same place Jesus ascended Proverbs 30:3,4 "I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the Holy One .Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is His name, and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell?..." This verse speaks of things the HOLY ONE has or only ever will/could do.

the two witnesses are not the Word and Spirit or two angels (none of which can be martyred) Scriptural proof: Revelation 11:7-8 observation God has given the privilege of spreading the gospel to men -because of our unique relationship to God which the (remember)- angels long to look into- and to give prophesy) when angels give prophesy it is to "man" and then that man is honored for his "place" or "job" which comes after the prophesy or message given by the angel.

Mark 10:40 "But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not Mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared." i do not believe that this would have been an issue to the disciples or displeased them as shown after verse 40 if it were two angels or "word and Spirit- there would have been no purpose in recording the question (shown in the verses before) by the two disciples if it were- the specific identity of the two is not named for their safety before the 1260 days when the two are given power to kill on their own behalf...- if they were angels God would have no problem telling more about them as He does of the other angels who bring good and disaster to the earth in revelation. and they are not groups or the two lampstands and two olive trees symbols would not have been used...God would have used symbolism of things that implied groups not singleness...and in the end times there will be a "oneness" of those who believe(follow) not jews and Christians. Simply "those who love and obey" i only see one group he would anoint two vessels from: to use in such a manner "those who are going to heaven...these two are not self appointed or volunteers yet overly willing as Mark 10:40- they were created to stand before the God of the earth. the identity of the two olive trees will be clear when the 3 and a half years begin...
Hebrews 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment; So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation... -This verse is spiritually speaking "He appear the second time without sin..." He experienced spiritual death, so those who believe on Him would live just as He did when the Power of the Spirit raised Him. -yes as well as physical. men are appointed to die "once" - remember believers are to die to sin / alive to Christ. when our body gives out for whatever reason: technically we don't die we go to heaven continue to live- "(physical)Death is just another thing we live through" this verse is speaking of the spiritual death believers must die to become alive to Christ
if the verse were speaking physical then you would have to explain the contradiction with Lazeraus coming to life and dieing twice.

note: matthew 17:11-12 Elijah has already come...disciples had the same question many do today, isn't Elijah coming...His answer: he has already come matthew 11:14
And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.

[visionary]

from Revelation 11 and Zechariah 4 -John3 and Matthew11,17 Mark 10
and Proverbs 30

the two olive trees are not any of the old testament prophets or witnesses Scriptural proof: John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but "He" that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven" this scripture uses "He" meaning exclusively that He is the only one that will come down from heaven...(Enoch and Elijah ascended but remember Paul talks about a third heaven) they were ascended but not to the same place Jesus ascended Proverbs 30:3,4 "I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the Holy One .Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is His name, and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell?..." This verse speaks of things the HOLY ONE has or only ever will/could do.

the two witnesses are not the Word and Spirit or two angels (none of which can be martyred) Scriptural proof: Revelation 11:7-8 observation God has given the privilege of spreading the gospel to men -because of our unique relationship to God which the (remember)- angels long to look into- and to give prophesy) when angels give prophesy it is to "man" and then that man is honored for his "place" or "job" which comes after the prophesy or message given by the angel.

Mark 10:40 "But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not Mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared." i do not believe that this would have been an issue to the disciples or displeased them as shown after verse 40 if it were two angels or "word and Spirit- there would have been no purpose in recording the question (shown in the verses before) by the two disciples if it were- the specific identity of the two is not named for their safety before the 1260 days when the two are given power to kill on their own behalf...- if they were angels God would have no problem telling more about them as He does of the other angels who bring good and disaster to the earth in revelation. and they are not groups or the two lampstands and two olive trees symbols would not have been used...God would have used symbolism of things that implied groups not singleness...and in the end times there will be a "oneness" of those who believe(follow) not jews and Christians. Simply "those who love and obey" i only see one group he would anoint two vessels from: to use in such a manner "those who are going to heaven...these two are not self appointed or volunteers yet overly willing as Mark 10:40- they were created to stand before the God of the earth. the identity of the two olive trees will be clear when the 3 and a half years begin...
Hebrews 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment; So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation... -This verse is spiritually speaking "He appear the second time without sin..." He experienced spiritual death, so those who believe on Him would live just as He did when the Power of the Spirit raised Him. -yes as well as physical. men are appointed to die "once" - remember believers are to die to sin / alive to Christ. when our body gives out for whatever reason: technically we don't die we go to heaven continue to live- "(physical)Death is just another thing we live through" this verse is speaking of the spiritual death believers must die to become alive to Christ
if the verse were speaking physical then you would have to explain the contradiction with Lazeraus coming to life and dieing twice.

note: matthew 17:11-12 Elijah has already come...disciples had the same question many do today, isn't Elijah coming...His answer: he has already come matthew 11:14
And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.

but that leaves....the two witnesses as.....arriving at the start of the three and one half years....but who are they is the question

[visionary]

My point is that God's witness today is the Church. You say that the devil will cause great problems in these days to come.

God's witnesses today are not the church as it has fallen away, and the church is locked up in doctrines, in history, and tradtions of men, that it cna not change, because it is afraid to loose the identity that it has, and if anything is an indication, the robes of the priest being exposed to the world that they (the people) can see the unrighteousness via news media, tells me that maybe it is true that the judgments of God begin at the house of God.
The churches have been judged and are found wanting, they have been weighed on the scale and found inadequate to represent the whole truth.
True but wont this be the same devil that we have to deal with today. Does he not operate all over the world as he will in the days of the "two witnesses" as the scriptures say? What will make him so much more difficult to deal with in days to come than he does now. Is God going to give him more power?
As it was in the days of Noah, we have not reached that point.....if you read Book of Enoch, you will find that angels were mating with women and all kinds of uncontrolled evil was abounding. We also read that there will come a day when there will be a letting loose will occur, and then as they say "all hell breaks loose". True the devil operates in the world today, but under restraints. God will grant the wishes of the world and allow them to have their ruler for "one hour".
To me it is beyond compehension that two people, no matter what spiritual condition they may be in, have the ways and means of dealing with the works of darkness all over the world.
As far as two people having the ways and means, to me means that they can be like Philip and be giving testimony to the truth and then be gone to another location.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

They can be like Moses and call down plagues as often as they see necessary to get people to see that they are coming with the all the authority of God to call everyone everywhere with the last chance to leave sin forever.

They can challenge earthly religious authorities like the Pope, Billy Graham, and any other big name religious leaders, who come to accuse them of lies, just as Elijah did to the Baal priests.

Isn't this even beyond what Jesus could do in Jerusalem prior to the crucifixion
Yeshua's purpose was not to judge at this time, as much as it was His purpose to come and show us what a true believer of God is to walk, talk, and believe, and live like. We are to learn from His example what God demands of us and by faith accept the "penalty paid" offered through His sacrifice. We are to see the hope and promise of a new life through the ressurection, which He holds the keys to.
No - the witnesses have to be groups of people - two of His covenant peoples that He has restored since He had taken others out of the way at that time
Groups of people as two witnesses.....two covenant peoples....like God has two covenants....one for you and one for me. You and I both know that God has only one covenant, it has always been the same covenant, true it has taken on a new format, from stone to your heart, but it is still the same deal offered to mankind throughout all the centuries. Sorry, the way that the two witnesses are brought forth in Revelation, to me, clearly indicates two...not a multitude, not a remnant, not a church, not an assembly, not a synagogue, not a nation, not a group. I believe God is being specific for a reason. The reason is that we can look forward to two people that will stand out, who will face the world, face the greatest challenge in the history of this spiritual warfare between Satan and Yeshua for the rulership of this world.

[Sephania]

If the two witnesses are two groups of people then what is the meaning of the 12,000 from each tribe? Aren't they witnesses too?

[IsraelSarah]

LOL visionary i like your posts and well thankyou then i did my job right

doesnt matter who. Mark 10:40 two individuals

excelent post on the means: 'For you will do even greater things than I'

ONE did surely two can 'I WILL GIVE unto my two witnesses'

[Sephania]

Oy, are you two related? yOu are even more cryptic than she is ( if that's possible_ ). :)

[visionary]

If the two witnesses are two groups of people then what is the meaning of the 12,000 from each tribe? Aren't they witnesses too?
There was the twelve...and then there is everyone else. Does that mean there are only 12 witnesses in Messiah's time? Same answer then as there is today, we are all witnesses for the Messiah.
As to the special significance of the 144,000....I beleive it has to do with perfection.

They will be the answer to Yeshua's prayer, as indicated by the hidden manna and the knowing His name.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

When you read Romans chapter 8 you will find that what everything is waiting for is us to be perfect in Messiah.

Romans 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

Hebrews 13:19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner. 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Yeshua, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Yeshua Messiah; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

This is what God is waiting for....the perfect...the ones in whose mouth is no guile.

[visionary]

Oy, are you two related? yOu are even more cryptic than she is ( if that's possible_ ). :) or dry humor.....HAHAHAHAHA

Nope we are not related....just have the same sense of humor. :thumbsup: :D :wave: