Arafat Dilemma... am I so wrong?

[Pray4Isrel]

Ok, my Messianic friends.
Here's the dilemma:
Yasser Arafat = Evil Man.
I don't think it's so bad that he may die, in fact, he's a terrorist and I think he should be killed. I categorize him with the likes of Saddam, Hitler, Stalin etc.

Now many Christians tell me I am wrong for wanting him dead...
I disagree though. Not that I will do cartwheels and flips when he dies, but I will be relieved when he does die or is killed.

How do you feel about this?

[simchat_torah]

Considering he has paid millions and millions to suicide bombers in order to kill Jews...

I'd say he's worse than Saddam.

But then again, they both hid behind their power.

Sick sick individuals.

[Pray4Isrel]

Yes and I completely agree, yet I am "verbally attacked" by Christians that say I am heartless, unforgiving and a poor example of a Believer for wanting the guy DEAD.

So explain this dichotomy:
Is it unholy to wish for an evil person to be eliminated?
Or should we be "Praying that they get saved" instead of wanting them to be gone?

[AnthonyForChrist]

Ariel Sharon is way evil. Reminds me of Yeshua taking about the false Jews and the "synagogue of Satan" in Yochanan's Revelation.

[Pray4Isrel]

Oh he is, is he? And how do you believe Sharon is "evil"?

[troodon]

I think it's wrong to wish death on anyone but I consider that a non-religious belief of mine; it has nothing to do with my Christianity.

Not sure if I explained that well :sorry:

[Pray4Isrel]

LOL, kinda confusing but I think I get it! :)

[troodon]

LOL, kinda confusing but I think I get it! :)
Hmm... like I don't think it's a sin or "bad" in God's eyes to wish someone were dead just like it isn't a sin or "bad" in God's eyes to shoot a bird with a BB gun. But, that doesn't mean that either is a "good" thing; in fact I consider both to be a "bad" thing.

I think that makes more sense :)

[Pray4Isrel]

Well here's the thing:
Would anyone here NOT have wished for Hitler's death?

[SolomonVII]

No, you are not wrong for wanting this man dead. The supreme value of Christianity, like Judaism if I am not mistaken, is life. Arafat is a proven threat to the lives of many. As long as he is alive, many innocent people will continue to die. I don't believe that you are so much wishing death upon Arafat but opting that life might become an option for his future victims.

[troodon]

Well here's the thing:
Would anyone here NOT have wished for Hitler's death?
Things get sticky at extremes, don't they? ;)

The death of any human being is never something to celebrate. That does not mean that someone's death is, at times, necessary (like Hitler's). But, I feel that it is always best to wish that they would see the error of their ways, repent, and change; never wish for their death. To wish for their death is to sink to the level of hatred that made them so despicable.

"This song started as a rant against haters
but that'd be giving into the instigators."

'Electricity' by 311

Hitler's death, and indeed Yasser Arafat's eventual death, should not have been/be wished for but may be condoned as necessary for peace to have a chance.

Maybe I'm just making too big a deal out of it though :D

[Pray4Isrel]

No, you are not wrong for wanting this man dead. The supreme value of Christianity, like Judaism if I am not mistaken, is life. Arafat is a proven threat to the lives of many. As long as he is alive, many innocent people will continue to die. I don't believe that you are so much wishing death upon Arafat but opting that life might become an option for his future victims.I give a loud "Amen" to that. That was beautifully stated.

[Pray4Isrel]

Things get sticky at extremes, don't they? ;)

The death of any human being is never something to celebrate. That does not mean that someone's death is, at times, necessary (like Hitler's). But, I feel that it is always best to wish that they would see the error of their ways, repent, and change; never wish for their death. To wish for their death is to sink to the level of hatred that made them so despicable.

"This song started as a rant against haters
but that'd be giving into the instigators."

'Electricity' by 311

Hitler's death, and indeed Yasser Arafat's eventual death, should not have been/be wished for but may be condoned as necessary for peace to have a chance.

Maybe I'm just making too big a deal out of it though :D
I am following you :)
So am I correct in assuming that you are against the death penalty?

[troodon]

I am following you :)
So am I correct in assuming that you are against the death penalty?
Correct

[Henaynei]

Getting in here late in the conversation! No fair starting something this volatile just as Shabbat starts!! LOL

As I recall all through Tefillah (Psalms) Melekh Dovid repeatedly sang and prayed and petitioned G-d for the death of his enemies - and yet is called a "man after G-d's own heart." Though in retrospect that is not so far fetched since G-d Himself repeatedly demanded, and punished those who did not comply with, His instructions to wipe out evil - every man, woman, child AND even animal.

G-d Himself has mandated the death penalty - we in our arrogance think we have a better idea. Such is the path of man's fall, since the Gan Eden. We have gone so far as to excuse evil and call it misfortune rather than evil. I am sure some who are reading these posts in their heart want to say "but it's not his fault!, he had such a horrible childhood (totally false, by the way)!"

Woe unto them that callevilgood, and goodevil; that putdarkness for light, and light for darkness; that putbitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! (added: "that put of G-d for not of G-d, and not of G-d for of G-d.")



Sometimes the death penalty is carried out one on one, or legal system on one, or country on one - all are legitimate in G-d's scheme. No, you can't just go around killing willy-nilly, don't even GO there! BUT where clear evil is present a clear mandate exists. All the more so because this is happening in Israel and it is IN Israel that G-d demanded the cleansing from evil to heal and cleanse the land.


No, I am not so naive as to believe that killing Arafat would solve all of Israel's problems - but if you understand the Arab mind you will understand, just as Gen. Allenby did, that such action will go a long way toward clearing the way and creating a platform from which to demand peace from the PLO.

[Pray4Isrel]

I completely agree, Henaynei.
Very well spoken!

[SolomonVII]

As I recall all through Tefillah (Psalms) Melekh Dovid repeatedly sang and prayed and petitioned G-d for the death of his enemies - and yet is called a "man after G-d's own heart." Though in retrospect that is not so far fetched since G-d Himself repeatedly demanded, and punished those who did not comply with, His instructions to wipe out evil - every man, woman, child AND even animal.

Scripturally speaking then, their is ample justification for violent reaction against men and even tribes of men who have chosen paths that are obviously evil. Many of us Christians prefer not to see this facet of God, but rather focus on the God of love which leaves us with a warm fuzzy feeling. Undoubtedly God is a God of of love and mercy and compassion, but to believe in the scriptures we must also understand God to be a God of wrath as well. Our will to survive demands that we comply with such a belief, and act out against Evil :mad:.

Thanks for the kind words, Pray4Isrel.:wave:

[Pray4Isrel]

Well my mind is greatly relieved.
I had been stressing under the thought that I was being hypocritical by saying that Arafat's death is commendable.
Thank you all for clarifying your position on the issue!

[Aethelsige]

The only claim they (muslims) have to the land is that there armies invaded and took it from the Bzyantine Empire. The mosques have no right to be there. One day God will remove them. And they all will fear the scales.

[SonWorshipper]

Ok, I have read all of the responses and this is my take.


1. Everyone has a chance of repenting, no matter how much evil they do.
2. Our G-d is also a G-d that says that "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
3. Hitler is brought up but what of Haman? Did he not make a decree that on ONE day all JEWS around the known world were to DIE? Praise be to HaShem that He used that for His glory as well.
4. Was salvation not taught but way of turning to the L-rd under the most dire of circumstances? Lead by one man? Pharaoh? Egypt? Passover?
5. Daniel Nebuchadnezzar, look what he did.


This just goes to show that the L-rd can use evil men to show his power and might and also to turn those who have turned away from Him, back again. We don't know what part Arafat has in the L-rd great plan but I am sure it has some relationship to do with the turning back of all Israel to her G-d of old. Remember that that in good times they waxed fat and forsok their G-d and forgot all He had done, but it is in times of distress and no way out that they turn towards him.

I believe that Arafat is doing exactly what the L-rd is allowing him to do, nothing more and nothing less.

Drastic times call for drastic measures. Hashem has His plan and who are we to say? All we can do is what we are required to do. Pray that Arafat turns from his evil to accept the true Messiah of Israel. What a wonderful witness THAT would be no? And we are to pray the same for those that are persecuted by the dragon and that his plan is not made manifest that they should not know their Messiah, for this is his deception.

Just remember He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps, He sees everything and is still in control.

We are not to judge, nor do the L-rds work, for he says: that vengence is mine!"

Lastly,

6. Our G-d tells us we must be perfect:

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.~~~~~Matthew 5


Shalom!

[ej]

I hope you don't mind me posting here :sorry:

The reason I can't be pleased for the death of a man (albeit a man whose actions have been evil in our judgement) is that we are all sinners.

You might scorn that (for example) my laziness and selfishness are little compared with Arafat's doings... but I see it as a continuum. I'm not here to preach scripture though there is an appropriate verse on my mind :)

If it's okay to wish for the death of Hitler and Arafat, tomorrow it might be okay to wish for the death of bank robbers, the next day, of unwanted babies.

Our society is declining in its moral standards, yet society appears to make efforts to be politically correct at all times, etc etc... I think that the line we might draw would be too fuzzy, and would propagate further moral decline.

Sorry if you find this offensive :sorry:

[Pray4Isrel]

Keep in mind, I am pro-life, not pro-abortion. My mother was the director and founder of several Pro-Life Christian Pregnancy Centers in the States for 15 years working closely to Dr. Dobson. It is through my mother's dedication that thousands of babies are alive today and not aborted.
I am for the death penalty though.

So may I ask a question? Should we not seek to eliminate the likes of Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, etc?
they kill masses of people...
You tell me you are pro-life and this is good. If you are pro-Life, you would want to save the thousands that these men relentlessly murder.
In order to do that, we must kill the ones who are killing.

[ej]

So may I ask a question? Should we not seek to eliminate the likes of Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, etc?
they kill masses of people...
You tell me you are pro-life and this is good. If you are pro-Life, you would want to save the thousands that these men relentlessly murder.
In order to do that, we must kill the ones who are killing.
I don't know the answer :(
I'm sorry if it sounds hypocritical :sorry:
But I can't see how two wrongs make a right.

Your point is a great one, and one I've thought many times at work. The process of 'triage' at major incidents means that doctors and nurses must leave the unsalvagable to die, and save those lives which can realistically be saved. It confuses me.

I might sound as though I'm trying to sit on the fence. What I'm actually doing is looking deep inside, and coming up without an answer to the problem. :cry:

[Pray4Isrel]

I don't know the answer :(
I'm sorry if it sounds hypocritical :sorry:
But I can't see how two wrongs make a right.

Your point is a great one, and one I've thought many times at work. The process of 'triage' at major incidents means that doctors and nurses must leave the unsalvagable to die, and save those lives which can realistically be saved. It confuses me.

I might sound as though I'm trying to sit on the fence. What I'm actually doing is looking deep inside, and coming up without an answer to the problem. :cry:I didn't want to make you cry ;) :hug:
I think you are right though, it is an issue that is difficult to make decisions about. I guess I came to my personal conclusion when I see the thousands and sometimes millions that have brutally been murdered by these evil men. I think that eliminating a man that kills millions is worth saving those millions of lives.

[ej]

You're probably right :prayer:

[Pray4Isrel]

Prayer is the one weapon that will always succeed, Amen? :prayer:

[ej]

Amen :pray:

[SonWorshipper]

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.~~~~~Matthew 5


I'm sorry, I don't see anywhere in here where Yeshua said it was alright to kill your enemies. He also said that if you think evil in your heart against someone then He sees it the same as you have murdered them.

I think it boils down to how G-d sees things, not us. For every thought of the heart is evil, and that is everyones' , ours as well as Arafat's.

The wise King once said:

Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth: lest the L-RD see it and it displeaseth him, and he turn away his wrath from him.

[Pray4Isrel]

I do know that G-d commanded people to destroy enemies in times past.
David was a man of war and a man after G-d's own heart.

I do believe that God has it all under control though. I trust Him.

[nyj]

How do you feel about this?
I read an interesting article on this from a Jewish perspective once. Here is the link:

First Things - The Virtue of Hate by Rabbi Meir Y. Soloveichik (http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0302/articles/soloveichik.html)

[Henaynei]

So when evil rises we are to do nothing for it is G-d's will that evil prosper?

This is exactly the mindset that lead to 6 million deaths.

This totally ignores G-ds commands to resist evil.

[Henaynei]

This also ignores the command to save life - if someone is killing thousands are we not Torah bound to do everything in our power to stop it?

This same logic would say that abortion is G-d's will also, so that a few doctors might be saved.

[Pray4Isrel]

I couldn't agree with you more, Henaynei!

[SonWorshipper]

This also ignores the command to save life - if someone is killing thousands are we not Torah bound to do everything in our power to stop it?


By more killing? Or prayer?

[Pray4Isrel]

So do you recommend we let the likes of Saddam, Hitler and Stalin just do their damage without anyone stepping in?

[SonWorshipper]

I say let the L-rd G-d handle it. Are we justifying breaking the 6th commandment because someone else is breaking it? How is there any difference in us and them? The L-rd Yeshua tells us in Matthew 5 that if we do as the heathens do we are no better than they are. We don't have to like this, and believe me I hate it. I am in prayer for Israel and the people over there continually. I personally know many over there and am stabbed in the heart every time I hear of the newest atrocitiy, like the thread I posted about the father and daughter slaughtered the day before her wedding, which kinda feel to the end of this forum for lack of many responses. To this day I still cannot watch Shindler's list, just thinking about it cuts off my breath so don't think I like this one bit , but we must understand that the ways of the L-rd are perfect and that our understanding is limited.

There are many places in the Bible that the L-rd warns Israel to turn back to Him or he will send others from other nations, Kings, etc against them and allow them to be overtaken. This things are bloody and horrible but the L-rd is righteious in what He is doing. I don't think taking the matter into our own hands is what he wants. Intercession , yes, interferrence, no. He wants His people back, and unfortuantly this isn't going to happen in a peaceful way. :cry:

Remember Yeshua cryed over Jerusalem, I believe He is still crying and longs to gather them into his loving arms but they still aren't ready. :cry:

Man was created on the sixth day, is it a coincidence that the L-rd tells us not to murder another man ( or of mankind) in His 6th mitzvot?

[SolomonVII]

As I recall all through Tefillah (Psalms) Melekh Dovid repeatedly sang and prayed and petitioned G-d for the death of his enemies - and yet is called a "man after G-d's own heart." Though in retrospect that is not so far fetched since G-d Himself repeatedly demanded, and punished those who did not comply with, His instructions to wipe out evil - every man, woman, child AND even animal.

While the Bible should not be taken as advocating a pacifist point of view, care must be taken to use scripture to justify violence. It is important to remember the historical context in which the particualr scripture was written.
As I recall, when G-d commanded the Hebrew army to wipe out the every man, woman, child and animal during the initial Hebrew conquest of the Promised Land, He commanded them to do so in the context of a sacrificial offering to Himself. From this we can infer that the general practice of the time was for conquering tribe to enrich themselves at the expense of the vanquished people through killing the strongest and taking those that pose no threat as slave and booty. Rather than viewing warfare as a means of gaining material wealth for oneself and one's own people, I would suggest that G-d's demand for such a sacrifice pointed to a a higher way. G-d's vision was to establish his people of Israel as a promised land of "milk and honey".
To glorify this vision, in effect such a sacrifice of one's enemy to G-d served as a reminder that the purpose of warfare was not personal enrichment, but to create a people in the land of Israel that they may be a "Light unto the Nations".
Similarily, when deciding upon whether of not Arafat should be killed, or upon many of the other difficult issues that Israel now faces, may prayers remain focussed upon G-d's original vision for Israel, and may our words and actions always be such that we are glorifying G-d.
***************************

Being relatively new to this forum, I begsn my posts in this thread before reading the rules. Since I am not even very sure what exactly Messianic Judaism is, I hope that anything I am posting might be taken in the spirit of fellowship.

[Henaynei]

I say let the L-rd G-d handle it. Are we justifying breaking the 6th commandment because someone else is breaking it?
Believers ARE G-d's hands, feet and heart on this earth. What about Yeshua's command about not just going about verbally blessing folks - "be warm and filled" but rather give them food and your coat!! Kol v'Khomer!! If we are to use our hands and heart to make sure someone is not hungry and not cold, how much more that someone not be innocently killed??

Murder is killing for your own gain, pleasure or revenge - killing to stop someone from killing - no g-dly court or code of law calls that murder. If you killed to stop someone who was killing your neighbor's child would that be murder?

And this thing about letting G-d do it??...... If that was the best plan then why did He not do that throughout Ka'anan instead of having the Israelites kill men, women, children and animals repeatedly?? Sure, G-d *could* just reach down with a heart attack and kill Arafat - but it would not be nearly the deterrent to further terrorism from the Arabs as the Mosad or IDF doing it. Which would save more lives do you think??

[SonWorshipper]

as the Mosad or IDF doing it I am not a part of either one, you? This was not in the main question, I think the OP was asking what "WE" should do. "WE" I did not take as ISRAEL. I think that Israel should handle this as they see fit, not as the world does and have no problem with them doing so. Only when they see that even with all their power and might it will not bring them peace even if they do take out Arafat will they hopefully turn to the L-rd their G-d in repentance and with a hearty Hoshannah!
I am kinda getting the feeling here that I am being forced into a corner with a very disturbing epitath on my forehead and am not likeing that to much.

May I just say that the choice of my signature is no casual writing. As well I love a song by the same man which says:

Brethren my heats desire and prayer to G-d for Israel, is that they might be saved, they might be saved.

I tell you the truth in Messiah, Sorrow and grief fill my heart, My people , my brethren are dying, I could wish I were lost , thaT they might be found in Him.

Remember us Oh, L-rd................All Israel will be saved.

[Henaynei]

I am not a part of either one, you? This was not in the main question, I think the OP was asking what "WE" should do. "WE" I did not take as ISRAEL.
I am sorry, forgive me...... that is exactly what I *did* see in the original query. Essentially, what is the "right" or Torah response to the situation as it stands.....

Shalom,

Henaynei

[KelsayDL]

I often wrestle with the whole death penalty/turn the other cheek mess.

While I understand the pov that Yeshua said to forgive, are we not able to defend that which we love, when threatened?

How can we know Yeshua would condemn those types of actions, when in revelations his two witnesses will be whacking people left and right?

Clearly, in revelations it is righteous self defense.