Jesus’s logistics in the second coming [Archive]

Zecryphon

30th September 2007, 11:00 PM

What's that supposed to mean? He'll reappear on a cross in Israel? Is that what you're waiting for? So even if he was standing right in front of you, you would reject him because he doesn't match your preconceived notions? As for chaos and destruction, we've had that for 2000 years. How on earth are you going to know how much chaos and destruction is enough to signal his return? And anyhow, even if you do set a particular level, and that level is matched, it still doesn't answer how he is supposed to announce his presence. A phone call to CNN is unlikely to work. So what's Plan B? Perhaps there should be a hotline set up for Jesus to call where his claim will be analyzed rather than dismissed? What's the point of 1 billion Christians waiting when they haven't even set up a toll free number?
"What's that supposed to mean? He'll reappear on a cross in Israel?"

Jesus did not leave earth on a cross in Israel. He was resurrected and left earth by ascending into the clouds at a later date.

"Is that what you're waiting for?"

Nope. Since He ascended into the heavens when He left, we're waiting for Him to return from the heavens to earth.

"So even if he was standing right in front of you, you would reject him because he doesn't match your preconceived notions?"

We don't have preconceived notions. But you obviously do. Here you are trying to examine the logistics of Jesus' return by your own preconceived notions of what you consider to be logical.

"As for chaos and destruction, we've had that for 2000 years. How on earth are you going to know how much chaos and destruction is enough to signal his return?"

We look to the scriptures for that information. What you have seen in your lifetime and throughout history for the last 2000 years is nothing compared to what God is going to do in the end times.

"And anyhow, even if you do set a particular level, and that level is matched, it still doesn't answer how he is supposed to announce his presence."

It's not up to us to set the level. The level is set by God. We're not chasing signs and wonders to figure out when He's going to return. But it sounds to me like you want to know what to look for, so that you'll know when He has come back.

"A phone call to CNN is unlikely to work. So what's Plan B? Perhaps there should be a hotline set up for Jesus to call where his claim will be analyzed rather than dismissed? What's the point of 1 billion Christians waiting when they haven't even set up a toll free number?"

You're really worried about this aren't you? It is YOU who needs the toll free number, not us. The sheep will know their shepherd and He will know us. His claims don't need to be examined and proven to be true by you. You need to be examined and found to be true, by Him. I'm not worried about His return date. Can you say the same?

kerravon86

30th September 2007, 11:11 PM

"What's that supposed to mean? He'll reappear on a cross in Israel?"

Jesus did not leave earth on a cross in Israel. He was resurrected and left earth by ascending into the clouds at a later date.

And what if this is all symbolic? You basically require a supernatural event before you will believe.

"Is that what you're waiting for?"

Nope. Since He ascended into the heavens when He left, we're waiting for Him to return from the heavens to earth.

The end of faith.

"So even if he was standing right in front of you, you would reject him because he doesn't match your preconceived notions?"

We don't have preconceived notions. But you obviously do. Here you are trying to examine the logistics of Jesus' return by your own preconceived notions of what you consider to be logical.

What is wrong with using logic? My notion was indeed formed using logic. Was yours?

"As for chaos and destruction, we've had that for 2000 years. How on earth are you going to know how much chaos and destruction is enough to signal his return?"

We look to the scriptures for that information. What you have seen in your lifetime and throughout history for the last 2000 years is nothing compared to what God is going to do in the end times.

How do you know that? Did the bible specify a particular death rate that must be occurring?

"And anyhow, even if you do set a particular level, and that level is matched, it still doesn't answer how he is supposed to announce his presence."

It's not up to us to set the level. The level is set by God.

That level may already have been reached.

We're not chasing signs and wonders to figure out when He's going to return. But it sounds to me like you want to know what to look for, so that you'll know when He has come back.

I do indeed. I want to find him if he's here. You don't seem to care.

"A phone call to CNN is unlikely to work. So what's Plan B? Perhaps there should be a hotline set up for Jesus to call where his claim will be analyzed rather than dismissed? What's the point of 1 billion Christians waiting when they haven't even set up a toll free number?"

You're really worried about this aren't you?

Yep.

It is YOU who needs the toll free number, not us.

For what purpose?

The sheep will know their shepherd

How?

and He will know us.

He will watch you rejecting him most likely.

His claims don't need to be examined and proven to be true by you.

You are the one who will require supernatural proof. I would be the one who examined what he had spent his life doing. I wouldn't reject him out of hand. You would.

You need to be examined and found to be true, by Him.

By what measure? By failing to stone to death people who work on the Sabbath, as the bible requires?

I'm not worried about His return date. Can you say the same?
I'm worried that he's all alone and no-one cares about him, just as very few cared about Iraqi women being raped by their own government.

DeanM

30th September 2007, 11:36 PM

What a can of worms.

Kerr, I'm not sure why you've come here. Do you really want any of us to take your questions seriously?

If that's your intention, you might want to ease up on your tone a bit. I know that tone is difficult to determine in text, but I have to think that you might have the intention of popping in, convincing everybody here that they're wrong, and then flying off to correct some other group of poor souls.

Perhaps I'm wrong. If you'd like some answers, you might want to rephrase your questions.

If, on the other hand, you want to poke your stick into the nest and see if there are any hornets here, you may want to rethink your position. I'm not telling you that you will get stung, but I will tell you that asking questions is far different than trying to provoke an argument.

Maybe you have something against Christians. I invite you to look at my faith icon. You will not see a Christian icon.

So if you're looking for a fight with some Christians, you might get what you came for. But you might also be surprised that I will not stand for anyone who comes here to stir up trouble. These are good people, and they do not deserve to be attacked.

I, on the other hand, will not give you the satisfaction of thinking that you have succesfully provoked a Christian into an argument. I'm just some guy who does not care what excuse you may have for coming here and starting trouble.

Don't like me already? Well, why don't you send me a PM and give me your real views. I'd love to hear them. And you won't have to worry about forum rules, either.

I have no rules when it comes to people like you.

Either PM me and take this to the next level, or get off your high horse and leave these people alone.

Bring it.

kerravon86

30th September 2007, 11:53 PM

Do you really want any of us to take your questions seriously?

Of course. The questions are crucial.

If that's your intention, you might want to ease up on your tone a bit. I know that tone is difficult to determine in text, but I have to think that you might have the intention of popping in, convincing everybody here that they're wrong

Wrong about what? I solicited opinions.

I'm just some guy who does not care what excuse you may have for coming here and starting trouble.

Making sure that Jesus is recognized is "starting trouble"?

Don't like me already? Well, why don't you send me a PM and give me your real views.

I've given my real views already.

I'd love to hear them. And you won't have to worry about forum rules, either.

I have no rules when it comes to people like you.

Either PM me and take this to the next level, or get off your high horse and leave these people alone.

Bring it.
I'm not exactly sure what you're challenging me to, but I'm certainly willing to rise to the challenge. I tried PMing you, but it wouldn't let me. How about you PM me with whatever your challenge is? Bring it on.

Tavita

1st October 2007, 12:42 AM

I'd think if you know Him NOW and progress to know Him MORE as time goes by, and even if He returns in a few minutes, then you would know Him.

He said His sheep know His voice. If nothing else just listen for the voice you're suppose to know.

He did say He'd come back in a very noisy manner though...

kerravon86

1st October 2007, 01:27 AM

I'd think if you know Him NOW and progress to know Him MORE as time goes by, and even if He returns in a few minutes, then you would know Him.

Again, how?

He said His sheep know His voice.

Perhaps he doesn't have any true sheep?

If nothing else just listen for the voice you're suppose to know.

"supposed" being the operative word.

He did say He'd come back in a very noisy manner though...
If you take a literal interpretation of the bible and demand supernatural proof.

How about I ask a different question?

What would Jesus do if he were on earth right now, without supernatural powers? What would he be thinking, feeling, and doing? Perhaps if we did what Jesus would do without superpowers, the actual Jesus might appear?

Tavita

1st October 2007, 01:28 AM

Again, how?

Perhaps he doesn't have any true sheep?

"supposed" being the operative word.

If you take a literal interpretation of the bible and demand supernatural proof.

How about I ask a different question?

What would Jesus do if he were on earth right now, without supernatural powers? What would he be thinking, feeling, and doing? Perhaps if we did what Jesus would do without superpowers, the actual Jesus might appear?

Hmmm :scratch:... I wonder if you have heard His voice.

kerravon86

1st October 2007, 01:34 AM

Hmmm :scratch:... I wonder if you have heard His voice.
Perhaps I have but can't quite prove it?

Zecryphon

1st October 2007, 10:06 AM

And what if this is all symbolic? You basically require a supernatural event before you will believe.

The end of faith.

What is wrong with using logic? My notion was indeed formed using logic. Was yours?

How do you know that? Did the bible specify a particular death rate that must be occurring?

That level may already have been reached.

I do indeed. I want to find him if he's here. You don't seem to care.

Yep.

For what purpose?

How?

He will watch you rejecting him most likely.

You are the one who will require supernatural proof. I would be the one who examined what he had spent his life doing. I wouldn't reject him out of hand. You would.

By what measure? By failing to stone to death people who work on the Sabbath, as the bible requires?

I'm worried that he's all alone and no-one cares about him, just as very few cared about Iraqi women being raped by their own government.
"And what if this is all symbolic?"

Symbols are representations of real things. I don't take it symbolically, but since you obviously want to, why don't you tell us what the symbols mean.

"You basically require a supernatural event before you will believe."

That's quite an erroneous conclusion to draw based upon what I've written thus far. I have said nothing of the sort. I understand why you feel you need to say something as ludicrous as that, but simply saying it doesn't make it true. Hopefully, your post will improve from this point forward.

Quote:
"Is that what you're waiting for?"

Nope. Since He ascended into the heavens when He left, we're waiting for Him to return from the heavens to earth.
"The end of faith."

Faith is not needed when He is standing before you. You are then dealing with reality.

Quote:
"So even if he was standing right in front of you, you would reject him because he doesn't match your preconceived notions?"

We don't have preconceived notions. But you obviously do. Here you are trying to examine the logistics of Jesus' return by your own preconceived notions of what you consider to be logical.
"What is wrong with using logic? My notion was indeed formed using logic. Was yours?"

Nothing is wrong with using logic, but Jesus' return does not have to be logical by your standards in order for it to happen.

Quote:
"As for chaos and destruction, we've had that for 2000 years. How on earth are you going to know how much chaos and destruction is enough to signal his return?"

We look to the scriptures for that information. What you have seen in your lifetime and throughout history for the last 2000 years is nothing compared to what God is going to do in the end times.
"How do you know that? Did the bible specify a particular death rate that must be occurring?"

The actual date is not known. So to waste your time looking for signs or natural disasters that could be a sign, is pointless. Jesus is gonna return when the Father wills it, not when we have checked off enough disasters on a list and marked the day we think He will return on a calendar. Every time that has been tried, it has failed.

Quote:
"And anyhow, even if you do set a particular level, and that level is matched, it still doesn't answer how he is supposed to announce his presence."

It's not up to us to set the level. The level is set by God.
"That level may already have been reached."

And your proof is?

Quote:
We're not chasing signs and wonders to figure out when He's going to return. But it sounds to me like you want to know what to look for, so that you'll know when He has come back.
"I do indeed. I want to find him if he's here. You don't seem to care."

Why do you want to find Him? Is there something you need from Him? You're right, I don't really care, because you sir, do not come off as a genuine seeker of Christ. But as someone who's looking for a fight.

Quote:
"A phone call to CNN is unlikely to work. So what's Plan B? Perhaps there should be a hotline set up for Jesus to call where his claim will be analyzed rather than dismissed? What's the point of 1 billion Christians waiting when they haven't even set up a toll free number?"

You're really worried about this aren't you?
"Yep."

Why?

Quote:
It is YOU who needs the toll free number, not us.
"For what purpose?"

You tell us. You suggested a toll-free number would be a good way for Jesus to let us know He had returned. This is your suggestion not ours. Why is this reasonable to you?

Quote:
The sheep will know their shepherd
"How?"

When Christ's believers see Jesus coming back to earth from the heavens and a host of angels with Him, then they'll know.

Quote:
and He will know us.
"He will watch you rejecting him most likely."

Ya know something, people like you are a dime a dozen and your insulting conclusions are worth even less. What right do you have to say I will reject Jesus? None. You have no basis for that claim and are proving to be nothing more than a troll.

Quote:
His claims don't need to be examined and proven to be true by you.
"You are the one who will require supernatural proof."

I have faith already, you apparently do not. I am not chasing signs and wonders or looking to the skies for the signs of His return, you apparently are. So here you are lobbing another baseless and totally unsupported accusation at me, and for what? I see you're married. Tell us all, troll, how does your wife put up with you?

"I would be the one who examined what he had spent his life doing. I wouldn't reject him out of hand. You would."

And you know what I would do how? You have already rejected Him, by not recongizing you need Him and His gift of salvation. So, let's say you examine what Jesus did. Then what? You decide if it was good enough to warrant your faith in Him? Yeah, that's a guaranteed sure fire way to become a false convert. Good luck with that. When you wanna know why you need to be saved and what you need to be saved from, crack open a Bible. Read the book of John, then read the book of Romans. If you sincerely desire to talk while doing that, because you have questions, then I might talk with you. But you really have to drop this attitude you have. You're coming off like a jerk.

Quote:
You need to be examined and found to be true, by Him.
"By what measure? By failing to stone to death people who work on the Sabbath, as the bible requires?"

Ah, now we get to it. This really has nothing to do with the return of Christ at all, does it? No, this has to do with your anger against the hypocrisy of people who claim to have faith. Alright, it's all making sense now. God has this set of laws known as the 10 Commandments. That is the standard by which you will be judged.

Quote:
I'm not worried about His return date. Can you say the same?
"I'm worried that he's all alone and no-one cares about him,"

Well obviously that's not true. He has a billion people on this planet currently who have chosen to stand with Him and call upon His name to be saved. Not to mention all the people prior who have put their faith and trust in Him for salvation and eternal life. He's not alone.

"just as very few cared about Iraqi women being raped by their own government."

Yep, this ain't about Christ's return at all, but about a political issue that's put a bee in your bonnet and gotten your knickers in a twist. Now would you like to discuss the Iraqi women being raped and what YOU would do to fix the situation or are we done here? I really gain nothing by talking to people who are trolling for a fight.

Cris413

2nd October 2007, 08:27 AM

The Great Tribulation
(3)
Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the "abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Mat 24:17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
Mat 24:18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
Mat 24:19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Mat 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
Mat 24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, "Look, here is the Christ!' or "There!' do not believe it.
Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Mat 24:25 See, I have told you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 "Therefore if they say to you, "Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or "Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Mat 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man
(4)
Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The only verse I see here with symbolism is verse 24:28…and there has been much theological debate regarding this one verse…

Otherwise…this Scripture is quite literal.

Ben12

2nd October 2007, 09:13 AM

Where does it say in scripture there is a seond coming of Jesus?

Ben12

2nd October 2007, 09:15 AM

My "c" is sticking on my computer and then I cannot edit.

JHM

2nd October 2007, 09:20 AM

Bye Now

Ben12

2nd October 2007, 09:31 AM

There is no mention whatever of such things as Christmas, Easter, the "immaculate conception" of Mary, mass, popes, church buildings, the Trinity, or - the "second coming"! The Spirit of God has dealt with me severely and consistently through many years that the Lord's people should purge their conversation, purify their terminology, and remove from their consciousness the multitude of non-scriptural and extra-biblical expressions carried over from Mystery Babylon. We have both parroted and coined a great many unscriptural terms that have been so misleading and have led us astray in our understanding of the scriptures and the wonderful plan of God.
How often we, like the babes in the harlot's house, refer to a minister of the gospel as "the pastor" of our church or some other congregation of saints. To hear all the Christians today constantly talking about "our pastor," "their pastor," "your pastor, "my pastor," and "the pastor," one would certainly be led to believe that this position of "the pastor" must indeed be one of the cardinal doctrines and most highly acclaimed offices in the New Testament! The fact is, the phrase "the pastor" is entirely foreign to the Word of God. It is an unscriptural and extra-biblical term.
There was no man in the New Testament church who ever occupied a position called "the pastor." Not one church raised up by the twelve apostles or by Paul had any such ministry as "the pastor." Oh, yes, there were "pastors" plural (Eph. 4:11), but no single minister of God in the New Testament was ever elevated to the position of "the pastor" of an assembly. The truth is that in every case in the Greek New Testament where the word for pastor (POIMEN) appears in the singular accompanied by the definite article, it is used in reference solely to our Lord Jesus Christ. He alone is T-H-E P-A-S-T-O-R of the flock, T-H-E S-H-E-P-H-E-R-D of the sheep! The sweet singer of Israel stated it so aptly in his lovely Psalm when he sang out under the spirit of inspiration, "The L-O-R-D is my SHEPHERD (pastor)!" Can we not see by this that any man who takes to himself this title "THE PASTOR," thereby usurps the place and headship of our precious Lord I am a servants, an under-shepherd, along with elders and ministries; but THE LORD IS T-H-E P-A-S-T-O-R.
We have been so completely saturated, so thoroughly brain-washed in the errors of the religious systems that we do by rote and speak by habit the ridiculous absurdities imbibed in the pews of Babylon. How astounded we are when once we learn the truth and discover that the cherished teaching or hallowed practice we have unwittingly ASSUMED to be godly and spiritual is not only unfounded in the Word of God, but actually is an abomination in the sight of God! And this term - "the second coming of Christ" - is not scriptural, either, and cannot be found anywhere in the Bible; yet it has influenced the thinking and teaching of most Christians to accept and believe concepts that simply are not true. We have been so confused in our thinking that everything in the scriptures pertaining to the coming of the Lord, His appearing, His manifestation have to fit into His coming as a man two milleniums ago, or to His so-called "second coming" when every eye shall see Him. This is wrong. Very wrong.
May the Mighty God come speedily with His coal of fire from off the holy altar of Eternal Truth and forever sanctify our speech! The second coming of Christ is not a biblical phrase. It has no scriptural warrant. It is my deep conviction that it should be discarded altogether, for it is the cause of much confusion of thought and not a little positive error. Many texts speak of the coming of Christ, the coming of the Son of man, the coming of the Lord or similar phrases. The word "second" never occurs with a word that can be translated "coming." Let us consider a few passages. "For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Mat. 24:27). "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep" (I Thes. 4:15). "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming" (II Thes. 2:8). "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waits for the precious fruit of the earth, and has long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain" (James 5:7). "Be also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draws nigh" (James 5:8).
These texts, and many others, all include the English word "coming." But the preachers, when preaching from these texts, always ADD the word "second" to each one, and proceed to preach on "the second coming of Christ"! They invariably add the word "second" to every "coming" in the New Testament, and then add the "second coming of Christ" to nearly every chapter in the Bible - even in the Old Testament. Adding "second" to the word "coming" does violence to the meaning every time. Jesus did not say, "the second coming of the Son of man." James did not say, "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the second coming of the Lord." Peter did not ask, "Where is the promise of His second coming?" Paul did not say, "Then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall ... destroy with the brightness of His second coming." There is no justification whatever for adding "second" to any of these inspired passages. I have all the confidence in the world that the Holy Spirit inspired them to be written exactly as they should be written - without the word second! You will have to rewrite the entire New Testament to support the doctrine of the "second coming" of the Lord. The "second coming" is not a biblical expression and first occurred among Christians as late as the middle of the second century after Christ. I can not emphasize too strongly that the word "second" is NEVER used in Holy Writ with the word "coming." That is the simple and plain and incontrovertible truth, and this fact is elementary and basic to a correct understanding of the coming of the Lord!

J Preston Eby

Ben12

2nd October 2007, 09:48 AM

It is significant to note that the term “great tribulation” appears only twice in the book of Revelation, and in neither case does it apply to the nations or to the world! Both times it has to do with the Lord’s own people! The idea that the book of Revelation is about the “great tribulation” that has come, or is yet to come, upon the nations of earth is a myth, a fable, folklore, and a fairy tale! That is not what the Book says! The Lord Jesus said that He would cast the spiritual fornicators of the church age into great tribulation unless they repented. What do you suppose would be the purpose of the great tribulation? Why, bless your heart, it would be to influence and motivate them to repent! It would be God’s two-by-four hitting them over the head to get their attention!

Then John sees a great multitude that has come out of great tribulation. A wonderful transformation has taken place in them through the process of the great tribulation. They have now “washed their robes” and have “made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” They were already the Lord’s people! This is not sinners coming to wash their robes from the filth of sin and the world they walked in before they were saved. No! These are the very people the Lord had said He would cast into great tribulation except they repented! These were believers in the church of Thyatira! Through this great tribulation they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood (life) of the Lamb. They have washed their robes from the defilement of their own untransformed souls, and from the soulish defilement of religion and religious doctrines, activities, and systems! As a result of the Father’s chastisement by this great tribulation, God’s purpose is accomplished in their lives. Cleansed and purified by the Lamb, they are transformed and brought very near to His throne of love, grace, and power!

Let us understand clearly just who these white-robed saints of God are! They are the redeemed of God who have washed their robes from the defilement of the false doctrines, empty rituals, lifeless ceremonies, fleshly methods, soulish worship, and carnal programs of the church systems of man. White robes in the book of Revelation denote “the righteous acts of the saints” (Rev. 19:8). It is the righteousness of Christ with which they are clothed, resulting in righteous, truly spiritual acts manifested out of their lives upon this earth. All of them have endured the strippings, purgings, prunings, threshings, refinings, and purifying dealings of God and have been thoroughly chastened and corrected by the Father!

This great multitude is seen coming out of the great tribulation clothed in the white robes of Christ’s righteousness and waving palm branches of victory and praise to God! This great tribulation is not a seven-year tribulation here at the end of the church age. Not at all! It is the symbol of the Lord’s chastisements upon His people throughout the age, upon all whom He has set His hand to purge and purify unto Himself. Many of these saints were in the great movements and revivals throughout the age when the Lord moved mightily by His Spirit to bring a people out of the existing errors and carnal systems of man, into a closer and purer walk with Him in the Spirit. The Lord led them through the processings of His Spirit, which made them pure and righteous in God’s sight while they walked this earth in the midst of worldly sin and religious corruption.

These are the ones “coming out” of “the great tribulation” having their robes washed in the blood of the Lamb! How many are there? “A great multitude that no man could number.” It is the “great” tribulation because of the “great” multitude! No man can experience more than his own tribulation. This “great tribulation” has lasted throughout the two thousand years since Christ came and began to form His body in the earth. All through the age He has called out people after people, company after company, from the apostate church systems of their day, and now, praise His name, there is a great multitude that no man can number!

It should be obvious to every spiritual mind that the great multitude that no man can number is not the same company as the 144,000 sealed ones that can be numbered. Not that 144,000 is a literal number, but it is the number of divine government ascribed to a select called and chosen company who reign with Christ upon His throne. Both companies are described in the same chapter of the Revelation, chapter seven. But there is a difference! As the spirit of revelation and understanding floods our minds, we are left without question as to the meaning of all this. The difference can be seen in the position of the two companies. God’s kings and priests are always referred to in relation to the throne. Jesus said that to the overcomer it is granted to sit with Him in His throne, even as He overcame and is set down with His Father in His throne (Rev. 3:21; 21:7). Then in chapter twelve the manchild is caught up to God and to His throne and rules the nations with a rod of iron (Rev. 12:5). Later, in chapter fourteen, the 144,000 stand with the Lamb (who is in the midst of the throne) upon mount Zion, again the figure of the throne, for king David ruled Israel from his throne on mount Zion (Rev. 14:1.

The “great multitude,” however, is not “on” the throne — it is “before” the throne of God and the Lamb! Neither do they “rule” or “reign” over anything, but they “serve” God day and night in His temple, and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They are a blessed company indeed! They are very near the throne, and dwell in the light of the throne, and in the presence of Him who sits upon the throne, and receive great and eternal and unspeakable blessings from the throne! They are the vast multitudes of the redeemed out of the age who have walked with God in a pure walk in the Spirit in the measure of light they had. And while they are a redeemed and sanctified and spiritual people, they are not the sons of God who reign with Christ upon His throne. They have not taken the spiritual steps that cause them to fully grow, mature, and progress all the way into God to become kings and priests. They have not attained unto the measure of the stature of the fullness Christ. Yet, they are the Lord’s own people, precious in His eyes! He who sits on the throne of the Lord — Christ and His many brethren — dwells among them; they live in the wonderful, rewarding, sustaining presence of the King of kings and the Lord of lords!

“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither shall they thirst any more; neither shall the sun (the illumination of the outer court) light on them, nor any heat (processing). For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of water (life in the Spirit): and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes” (Rev. 7:15-17).

No saint of God can escape the great tribulation! You will not be raptured out before it comes, for it is already here! It is not some horrible judgment of vindictive wrath and unrestrained vengeance poured out upon the nations, my friend; it is God’s own process of discipline and purification for ALL WHOM HE IS REDEEMING AND TRANSFORMING INTO HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS!

J Preston Eby

Cris413

2nd October 2007, 10:03 AM

Where does it say in scripture there is a seond coming of Jesus?
The Scripture is posted right above you Ben...

Please don't confuse the different accounts of the abomination of desolation...

The first occuring in the Temple before it was destroyed...

and the second abomination of desolation occures during the tribulation prophesied by Daniel in the Temple after it's rebuilt.

Although the accounts in Matthew and Luke are quite similar...there are distinct differences as well...

It takes careful study of the Scripture to understand the difference...

Starcrystal

2nd October 2007, 10:12 AM

When Jesus comes it will be from the sky, but don't discount counterfiets here as well.
The 'sign" of his appearing will be a star, the same star that heralded his first appearing when he was born.

The leaders of the world will think it is a hostile alien invasion and actually try to attack the LORD with planes and missiles. Of course, resistance is futile. All shall bow and confess that Jesus Christ is LORD.

Ben12

2nd October 2007, 10:13 AM

Ben12

2nd October 2007, 10:25 AM

"This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of hosts. Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it." (Zechariah 4:6-7).

Not only was there a literal fulfillment of this Scripture, in Zerubbabel's day, but it also holds within it a PROPHETIC WORD, of the greater temple being built, and the establishment of the NEW COVENANT, of which Jesus Christ is both the Chief Cornerstone, and the Capstone. He is both Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, and without Him there would be no LIVING TEMPLE established. He is THE ALL!

The Dictionary defines a headstone as: the principle stone in a foundation, the cornerstone. JESUS CHRIST IS THAT STONE! Peter writes this very clearly, "To Whom we come, as unto a Living Stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious."

(1 Peter 2:4). Without this Stone, the next verse would never have been written. "You also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." (v. 5). All that we are, all that we shall ever become to His praise, is BY JESUS CHRIST. We are His workmanship, and we are to be conformed to His image.

"Wherefore also it is contained in the Scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a CHIEF CORNERSTONE, elect, precious: and he that believes on Him shall not be confounded." (v. 6).

Cris413

2nd October 2007, 11:45 AM

Zecryphon

2nd October 2007, 12:06 PM

Well Ben...

You are pretty quick to jump on and refute just about every Scripture with vague interpretation...(unless of course a literal interpretation suits your fancy).

You are adamant we are to avoid the doctrines of men...obviously unless they are men you agree with....

....who is J Preston Eby?

:doh:

Don't you recognize...how inconsistent your posts are not only in your doctrine...but also your comments?
Cris,

Next it will be this classic line that The Way of the Master uses as a sound byte: "You don't have a god in you, you are one!" LOL

Ben12

2nd October 2007, 02:24 PM

Well Ben...

You are pretty quick to jump on and refute just about every Scripture with vague interpretation...(unless of course a literal interpretation suits your fancy).

You are adamant we are to avoid the doctrines of men...obviously unless they are men you agree with....

....who is J Preston Eby?

:doh:

Don't you recognize...how inconsistent your posts are not only in your doctrine...but also your comments?

There is a difference in our approach to scripture; I believe God has an anointing in a people be it you or me or J Preston Eby; I follow the anointing.

What do you follow? Orthadoxy?

My post are not "inconsistent"; they just do not fit your old worn out wine skin.

Ben12

2nd October 2007, 02:25 PM

Cris,

Next it will be this classic line that The Way of the Master uses as a sound byte: "You don't have a god in you, you are one!" LOL
If we are not Sons of Elohim; then what are we?

Zecryphon

2nd October 2007, 03:07 PM

If we are not Sons of Elohim; then what are we?
So you do think you're a god then? I can cross that one off the list. LOL

Ben12

2nd October 2007, 03:24 PM

So you do think you're a god then? I can cross that one off the list. LOL
Adam was a son of God; so was Jesus; now He and the Father are one. Big difference between god and God; you avoid my question; "if we are not sons of Elohim then what are we"?

I have always found Job is speaking of the sons of Elohim (God) this is not Satan it is

There are many names and descriptive titles of God in the scriptures. He is called Counselor, King, Shepherd, Rock, Shield, High Tower, Strong Arm, Saviour, Redeemer, Father, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, El Elyon, Jesus (Yahshua), and many, many others. Someone has said that there are about two hundred names for God in the Bible! The moment one begins to splinter the absolute wholeness that God is, to examine all His multi-faceted aspects and attributes, the number of splinters are as infinite as God is infinite. Each name of God, as He progressively revealed Himself, was a fresh and fuller revelation of the nature of God. One was a revelation of His Self-existence, another of His might, another was the unveiling of His grace. One revealed something more of His wisdom, another of His holiness, another of His tenderness, another of His exaltation and honor, another of His judgment, and so on.

Psalm 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. (notice little “g” or Elohim)
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods (Elohim); and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Son’s of god are men not Satan or angels.

Cris413

2nd October 2007, 03:30 PM

There is a difference in our approach to scripture; I believe God has an anointing in a people be it you or me or J Preston Eby; I follow the anointing.

What do you follow? Orthadoxy?

My post are not "inconsistent"; they just do not fit your old worn out wine skin.
Ya know Ben, I have never seen so many labels in my life before I came to this forum...

I was blissfully unaware of exactly how much bull pucky there is floating about...

The problem I see here is that you are leaning unto your own understanding...not only of Scripture...but of everyone else YOU deem either worthy or unworthy...(mostly unworthy)

When you first came on the scene...I thought perhaps you did have some wisdom to share...didn't take long...perhaps a day...maybe two to discern the fruit of your spirit...

The first time being when you referred to new believers...or baby christians... as the goats...then came "baby lon" and your obvious disdain for those you consider "baby lon"

and it just went from bad to worse....

then the forum rules changed and you've just gone way off the charts with your twisted and false doctrine...

The thing is...the tell tale sign....is your disdain for everyone who doesn't follow or swallow your heresies...

A true disciple of Christ would be more concerned about another person salvation than they are about their own "righteousness"

But I guess, as you believe everyone's goat skin will be burned off in some refining fire...that pretty much leaves you free to be as disdainful as you like to all of us baby- lonians, literaleternalhellists, trinees, old winebags and such.

The Lord placed you quite heavily on my heart, Ben and it seems...the question lies not in how you grasp doctrine ...but rather what doctrine has grasped you.

Zecryphon

2nd October 2007, 03:48 PM

Adam was a son of God; so was Jesus; now He and the Father are one. Big difference between god and God; you avoid my question; "if we are not sons of Elohim then what are we"?

I have always found Job is speaking of the sons of Elohim (God) this is not Satan it is

There are many names and descriptive titles of God in the scriptures. He is called Counselor, King, Shepherd, Rock, Shield, High Tower, Strong Arm, Saviour, Redeemer, Father, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, El Elyon, Jesus (Yahshua), and many, many others. Someone has said that there are about two hundred names for God in the Bible! The moment one begins to splinter the absolute wholeness that God is, to examine all His multi-faceted aspects and attributes, the number of splinters are as infinite as God is infinite. Each name of God, as He progressively revealed Himself, was a fresh and fuller revelation of the nature of God. One was a revelation of His Self-existence, another of His might, another was the unveiling of His grace. One revealed something more of His wisdom, another of His holiness, another of His tenderness, another of His exaltation and honor, another of His judgment, and so on.

Psalm 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. (notice little “g” or Elohim)
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods (Elohim); and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Son’s of god are men not Satan or angels.
"Adam was a son of God; so was Jesus; now He and the Father are one. Big difference between god and God; you avoid my question; "if we are not sons of Elohim then what are we"?"

I don't avoid your question at all. We are sons of Adam, but not when he was in a right relationship with God, we became his sons after he fell out of God's grace. Therefore, we are children of wrath, born in opposition to God, outside of God's family. When God gives us faith and leads us to repent of our sins and call upon the name of Christ to be saved, only then are we adopted into God's family and are then children of God. But that still makes you an adopted son of God not a god.

Ben12

2nd October 2007, 04:02 PM

Ya know Ben, I have never seen so many labels in my life before I came to this forum...

I was blissfully unaware of exactly how much bull pucky there is floating about...

The problem I see here is that you are leaning unto your own understanding...not only of Scripture...but of everyone else YOU deem either worthy or unworthy...(mostly unworthy)

When you first came on the scene...I thought perhaps you did have some wisdom to share...didn't take long...perhaps a day...maybe two to discern the fruit of your spirit...

The first time being when you referred to new believers...or baby christians... as the goats...then came "baby lon" and your obvious disdain for those you consider "baby lon"

and it just went from bad to worse....

then the forum rules changed and you've just gone way off the charts with your twisted and false doctrine...

The thing is...the tell tale sign....is your disdain for everyone who doesn't follow or swallow your heresies...

A true disciple of Christ would be more concerned about another person salvation than they are about their own "righteousness"

But I guess, as you believe everyone's goat skin will be burned off in some refining fire...that pretty much leaves you free to be as disdainful as you like to all of us baby- lonians, literaleternalhellists, trinees, old winebags and such.

The Lord placed you quite heavily on my heart, Ben and it seems...the question lies not in how you grasp doctrine ...but rather what doctrine has grasped you.
Got to go back to the name calling and personal attacks; so be it. That is all I get anymore, for get the debate or Forum, let us attack the heretic Ben.

I am the heretic according to your understanding; but you are the ones who have really changed the Bible; here is a small laundry list; it is actually much larger. There is no mention whatever of such things as three persons, godhead, Christmas, Easter, the "immaculate conception" of Mary, mass, popes, church buildings, the Trinity, or - the "second coming"! Lord's people should purge their conversation, purify their terminology, and remove from their consciousness the multitude of non-scriptural and extra-biblical expressions carried over from Mystery Babylon. We have both parroted and coined a great many unscriptural terms that have been so misleading and have led us astray in our understanding of the scriptures and the wonderful plan of God.

And this term - "the second coming of Christ" - is not scriptural, either, and cannot be found anywhere in the Bible; yet it has influenced the thinking and teaching of most Christians to accept and believe concepts that simply are not true. We have been so confused in our thinking that everything in the scriptures pertaining to the coming of the Lord, His appearing, His manifestation have to fit into His coming as a man two milleniums ago, or to His so-called "second coming" when every eye shall see Him. This is wrong. Very wrong.

Many texts speak of the coming of Christ, the coming of the Son of man, the coming of the Lord or similar phrases. The word "second" never occurs with a word that can be translated "coming." Let us consider a few passages. "For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Mat. 24:27). "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep" (I Thes. 4:15). "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming" (II Thes. 2:8). "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waits for the precious fruit of the earth, and has long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain" (James 5:7). "Be also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draws nigh" (James 5:8).

Ben12

2nd October 2007, 04:05 PM

"Adam was a son of God; so was Jesus; now He and the Father are one. Big difference between god and God; you avoid my question; "if we are not sons of Elohim then what are we"?"

I don't avoid your question at all. We are sons of Adam, but not when he was in a right relationship with God, we became his sons after he fell out of God's grace. Therefore, we are children of wrath, born in opposition to God, outside of God's family. When God gives us faith and leads us to repent of our sins and call upon the name of Christ to be saved, only then are we adopted into God's family and are then children of God. But that still makes you an adopted son of God not a god.
Not bad, partically true; but we will leave it there; because you would choke on any more I dare to add.

Zecryphon

2nd October 2007, 04:41 PM

Not bad, partically true; but we will leave it there; because you would choke on any more I dare to add.

Now Ben, we all know when it comes to choking on anything scriptural, you're the king around these parts.

Cris413

2nd October 2007, 04:47 PM

Got to go back to the name calling and personal attacks; so be it. That is all I get anymore, for get the debate or Forum, let us attack the heretic Ben.

I am the heretic according to your understanding; but you are the ones who have really changed the Bible; here is a small laundry list; it is actually much larger. There is no mention whatever of such things as three persons, godhead, Christmas, Easter, the "immaculate conception" of Mary, mass, popes, church buildings, the Trinity, or - the "second coming"! Lord's people should purge their conversation, purify their terminology, and remove from their consciousness the multitude of non-scriptural and extra-biblical expressions carried over from Mystery Babylon. We have both parroted and coined a great many unscriptural terms that have been so misleading and have led us astray in our understanding of the scriptures and the wonderful plan of God.

And this term - "the second coming of Christ" - is not scriptural, either, and cannot be found anywhere in the Bible; yet it has influenced the thinking and teaching of most Christians to accept and believe concepts that simply are not true. We have been so confused in our thinking that everything in the scriptures pertaining to the coming of the Lord, His appearing, His manifestation have to fit into His coming as a man two milleniums ago, or to His so-called "second coming" when every eye shall see Him. This is wrong. Very wrong.

Many texts speak of the coming of Christ, the coming of the Son of man, the coming of the Lord or similar phrases. The word "second" never occurs with a word that can be translated "coming." Let us consider a few passages. "For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Mat. 24:27). "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep" (I Thes. 4:15). "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming" (II Thes. 2:8). "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waits for the precious fruit of the earth, and has long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain" (James 5:7). "Be also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draws nigh" (James 5:8).

When Jesus, Himself describes His return...I think we can be pretty well certain...He is coming AGAIN!

Doesn't take a spiritual genius to figure that one out Ben...

Listen to what your saying man!

In this post alone...you have blasted the virgin birth of our Lord and Savior AND the Trinity...refuting He is God in the same sentence....

Do not confuse sound doctrine with how our societies holidays have progressed....completely different issue...

Your religiosity has made you blind to the simple and fundamental truths of God Ben...

You are not here to share your self-perceived wisdom for the benefit and edification of the Body...you are here to spout your own understanding and boast about your supreme status as someone intrusted with some sacred secret that God doesn't seem to want to share with the rest of us...

God and salvation is NOT a big secret only for a select few with whatever anointing YOU deem righteous!

And just for clarification, I have not called you one name...only that your doctrine is heretical....AND IT IS!

Denying the Trinity is a heresy...denying the virgin birth is a heresy....

Denying the teaching of Jesus Christ Himself...heresy...

Actually...calling your doctrine blasphemy would be even more appropriate...

Sincerely,

The Baby lonian, literaleternalhellistic, old wineskin, goat skinned, trinie...

...and you have the audacity to accuse me of name calling...unbelievable!

by the way...don't get all elated considering you have made me angry...don't confuse my harsh rebuke as anger...would take a whole lot more than you to rob me of one moment of joy in the Lord....

Cris413

2nd October 2007, 05:05 PM

...And while I'm feeling so moved...

The word immaculate is NOT only Catholic specific terminology...

Immaculate: Having no stain or blemish. Containing no flaw or error. Spotlessly clean.

I think that pretty much describes the conception and birth...not to mention the life in the flesh of Jesus Christ...

Otherwise, He would not have been the perfect, blameless sacrifice for our sins...

Praise His Holy Name...

DeanM

2nd October 2007, 05:06 PM

bill16652

2nd October 2007, 05:07 PM

Zecryphon

2nd October 2007, 07:42 PM

Cuz I'm a wrathchild.

-Iron Maiden
Always with the heavy metal references Dean. LOL I love it! Hey Maiden's touring again this coming year in '08. If they come to the states are ya gonna go see 'em? I've seen 'em twice now. The name of the tour I believe is "Somewhere Back in Time".

Ben12

2nd October 2007, 08:21 PM

When Jesus, Himself describes His return...I think we can be pretty well certain...He is coming AGAIN!

Doesn't take a spiritual genius to figure that one out Ben...

Listen to what your saying man!

In this post alone...you have blasted the virgin birth of our Lord and Savior AND the Trinity...refuting He is God in the same sentence....

Do not confuse sound doctrine with how our societies holidays have progressed....completely different issue...

Your religiosity has made you blind to the simple and fundamental truths of God Ben...

You are not here to share your self-perceived wisdom for the benefit and edification of the Body...you are here to spout your own understanding and boast about your supreme status as someone intrusted with some sacred secret that God doesn't seem to want to share with the rest of us...

God and salvation is NOT a big secret only for a select few with whatever anointing YOU deem righteous!

And just for clarification, I have not called you one name...only that your doctrine is heretical....AND IT IS!

Denying the Trinity is a heresy...denying the virgin birth is a heresy....

Denying the teaching of Jesus Christ Himself...heresy...

Actually...calling your doctrine blasphemy would be even more appropriate...

Sincerely,

The Baby lonian, literaleternalhellistic, old wineskin, goat skinned, trinie...

...and you have the audacity to accuse me of name calling...unbelievable!

by the way...don't get all elated considering you have made me angry...don't confuse my harsh rebuke as anger...would take a whole lot more than you to rob me of one moment of joy in the Lord....
I know what I am saying; I do not believe in the Baby lion doctrine of the trinity; it is not scriptural no matter how hard you defend it; God is one.

Yes He is coming again; I just pointed out the falsehood of the so called second coming; which is not scriptural.

I have not blasted the virgin birth; I believe it I do not believe in it; I do not believe the way the Catholics dogma of the "immaculate conception" of Mary.

Those so called social holidays would be better described as pagan holiday then Christian.

I do not believe in my religion or your religion nor do I believe in your fundamental truth; a truth that condemns billions to an eternal torture.

The Bible uses the word sacred secret if you look up the word mystery in the Greek; are you denying the hidden manna, mysteries are in scripture.

His basic salvation is not a big secret; but I guarantee there are a lot of deep hidden things that carnal Christians are totally missing. I could care less about who I would anoint; it is the spirit of truth that does that and it sure does not happen to a religious system.

I have had plenty of names called by your so called righteous Christian brother; I am pretty use to that by now; but if you have the right to call what I believe heresy; I have the right to call what you believe carnal and Babylonian.

Denying the trinity is heresy; chapter and verse please?

What teaching of Jesus did I deny; because I believe there is a deeper message?

I never denied the virgin birth.

I am not angry either; I really enjoy this.

JHM

2nd October 2007, 08:40 PM

Bye Now

Zecryphon

2nd October 2007, 08:58 PM

Just curious here. What has any of the foregoing crap got to do with the questions posed by the person who originated this thread?

The question I saw was What if Jesus was already here; but unrecognized? When you think about that in a serious manner; there is a good chance that these days he'w wind up in jail or a nuthouse. Recognized? I doubt it. Nelson Mandela spent 27 years in jail, (thanks to the CIA), and Joe Clarke, (Onetime Conservative Prime Minister of Canada), has called him a Saint.

Matthew 9:15 What if Christ resides in North America?
JHM,

this thread has been derailed, meaning it has gone off topic of the original post. It happens alot in forums and is nothing to be overly concerned about. What makes you think that a nuthouse or jail could hold Jesus though? He's the Son of God. When He returns He is the one in authority, not the authorities set up by man.

JHM

2nd October 2007, 10:57 PM

Bye Now

DeanM

2nd October 2007, 11:45 PM

He got crucified didn't he ? Or do you think that is just a fairy tale ?
Jesus was God in the flesh. Flesh is not eternal. Do you think that Jesus did not know this? Who said that Jesus even tried to escape from his killers? Don't you think he could have if he wanted to?
So why would Jesus have wanted to die? Perhaps to save mankind?

Ben12

2nd October 2007, 11:50 PM

The old wine skins really burst with some new wine gets introduced. As I said there is no second coming there sure has been a lot of religious genius who have not figured this simple fact out.

-We have been taught by man to think in terms of the first and second coming of Christ, rather than looking to the Bible which speaks of the progressive revelation of Jesus Christ, and of His progressive comings. This thought is brought out in Micah 5:2.

-Micah 5:2 states, … Who is to be ruler in Israel, Whose GOINGS FORTH have been of old, from everlasting … ( Notice GOINGS is plural ) Let us now arrive at the mature understanding of the GOINGS FORTH of the Lord, for the Bible speaks of many comings of the Lord.

-The Lord comes:
-WITH CLOUDS
-AS LIGHTNING
-AS A THIEF
-AS THE BRIDEGROOM
-AS THE MORNING STAR
-AS THE SON OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING
-IN RESURRECTION POWER
-IN FLAMING FIRE
-AS REFINER’S FIRE AND FULLERS’ SOAP
-IN THE AIR
-AS THE RAIN
-ON A WHITE HORSE
-AS KING
-AS THE CHIEF SHEPHERD
-WITH HIS ANGELS
-WITH HIS SAINTS
-TO HIS SAINTS
-IN HIS SAINTS
-IN JUDGMENT
-WITH REWARDS
-WITH A SHOUT
-WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL
-WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD
-TO THE MOUNT OF OLIVES
-TO HIS TEMPLE
-IN GLORY
-AS LORD
-IN HIS KINGDOM
-AS SEASONS OF REFRESHING
-ETC.
-ETC.
-Are you getting the point yet? We have limited Jesus Christ to a first and second coming ( which words are not even found in the Bible ), and we have totally missed the point of HIS PROGRESSIVE REVELATION TO MANKIND. THESE COMINGS OF THE LORD ARE TO BE CHARACTERIZED AS HIS GOINGS FORTH.
-The Greek word "parousia", which occurs twenty-four times in the New Testament, comes from the verb "paremi", which means at hand, or to be present. "Parousia" denotes the presence of one who has already arrived. THE COMING OF THE LORD IS ACTUALLY HIS PRESENCE. James 5:7 states, … Be patient unto the coming ( presence ) of the Lord…
-HIS GOINGS FORTH HAVE BEEN OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING!-

JHM

2nd October 2007, 11:52 PM

Bye Now

Cris413

3rd October 2007, 06:40 AM

I am not angry either; I really enjoy this.

I'm sure you do....:sigh:

Cris413

3rd October 2007, 08:38 AM

<snip>
And this term - "the second coming of Christ" - is not scriptural, either, and cannot be found anywhere in the Bible; yet it has influenced the thinking and teaching of most Christians to accept and believe concepts that simply are not true. We have been so confused in our thinking that everything in the scriptures pertaining to the coming of the Lord, His appearing, His manifestation have to fit into His coming as a man two milleniums ago, or to His so-called "second coming" when every eye shall see Him. This is wrong. Very wrong.

Ben....please....a little common sense....

Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
Mat 24:5 For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

As not to confuse you with even yet more Scripture...lets just look at the highlights

moving on to:

Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the "abomination of desolation,'[3]spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Notice Jesus says when you see the abomination of desolation"

The first abomination of desolation had already occurred 198 years before this conversation on the Mount of Olives

and then moving on to:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

A child could understand this Ben...

I think, considering Jesus was sitting with the disciples at the time of this conversation...it's pretty much a given that He's talking about His second coming...even without using the word "second" as He was already there in their presence...:doh:

It's not some "baby lonian" interpretation you have a problem with...it's the words of our Lord Himself...you have a problem with.

The disciples asked him of His coming (odd question to ask if they were not inquiring about His return....since He was sitting right there with Him) and He answered them...quite clearly and plainly...

As we've discussed before...this doctrine of yours is one of the many tangled tethers growing away from the basic truths in Scripture...

One of the reasons...Jesus talked about the faith of a child...the faith of a mustard seed...

A childlike understanding and even the smallest amount of faith can produce marvelous fruit....

without turning into an abomination for the birds of the air to take haven in the branches that grow wildly away from the Spirit of Truth...

Any deeper meaning of truth MUST line up with the basic truth in order to REMAIN truth!

Now, as much as you're enjoying refuting Scripture...I really must move on
</IMG>

Ben12

3rd October 2007, 08:42 AM

I'm sure you do....:sigh:
I do enjoy it;

I love exploring God's Word; to go where you dare not go; because you limit God’s Word to your belief system. Look I point out something that is wrong in your eyes and you get upset; you have every right in the world to tell me where I am wrong; and you do.

I think what really makes you upset is that this heretic has anything to say that dare upset your apple cart. You say I am a heretic for not believing in the trinity; but you cannot support it in scripture. Oh sure you can support it in your little religious cycle; but this is NOT you little controlled group. You are up set because I make Swiss cheese out of eternal torture and use scripture to do so. Don’t tell me I am ignoring scripture; give me any scripture and I will show you how it has been influenced by something.

You got mad at me for declaring there is no such thing as a second coming; no one said the Lord is not coming but that is what you told me I said. This is all over religion, you believe it one way I believe it another.

I look at God’s Word as spiritual; something so deep and awesome and beyond human understanding; much looked Columbus as he look a crossed the Atlantic and everyone said the world was flat (except God’s Word) but no he set sail and found a new and plentiful land.

I heard about a dream a person had recently; a then person was sitting on a table with Jesus; all before him was this Hugh banquet table full of every food you can imagined. This deep man of God sat their relaxed; just eating with Jesus. Then he noticed Billy Graham walked in the room, fill his plate and left. Later Oral Roberts, Joyce Meyers appeared and filled their plate. The man asked the Lord, Lord what is going on here; why do they come fill their plate and leave. Jesus answered the man and said; oh they are satisfied; you can never get your fill.

bill16652

3rd October 2007, 08:50 AM

I do enjoy it;

I love exploring God's Word; to go where you dare not go; because you limit God’s Word to your belief system. Look I point out something that is wrong in your eyes and you get upset; you have every right in the world to tell me where I am wrong; and you do.

I think what really makes you upset is that this heretic has anything to say that dare upset your apple cart. You say I am a heretic for not believing in the trinity; but you cannot support it in scripture. Oh sure you can support it in your little religious cycle; but this is NOT you little controlled group. You are up set because I make Swiss cheese out of eternal torture and use scripture to do so. Don’t tell me I am ignoring scripture; give me any scripture and I will show you how it has been influenced by something.

You got mad at me for declaring there is no such thing as a second coming; no one said the Lord is not coming but that is what you told me I said. This is all over religion, you believe it one way I believe it another.

I look at God’s Word as spiritual; something so deep and awesome and beyond human understanding; much looked Columbus as he look a crossed the Atlantic and everyone said the world was flat (except God’s Word) but no he set sail and found a new and plentiful land.

I heard about a dream a person had recently; a then person was sitting on a table with Jesus; all before him was this Hugh banquet table full of every food you can imagined. This deep man of God sat their relaxed; just eating with Jesus. Then he noticed Billy Graham walked in the room, fill his plate and left. Later Oral Roberts, Joyce Meyers appeared and filled their plate. The man asked the Lord, Lord what is going on here; why do they come fill their plate and leave. Jesus answered the man and said; oh they are satisfied; you can never get your fill.
Just wanted to comment on one part of this, we cannot understand Gods Word? It says that the Holy Spirit will lead us into ALL truth. How deeply we are led is based on oiur committment and our hearing the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Also the body is made up of many parts and different people will be led in different ways in order to gain what they need to fulfill Gods purpose in their lives.

Ben12

3rd October 2007, 09:04 AM

Ben....please....a little common sense....

Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
Mat 24:5 For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

As not to confuse you with even yet more Scripture...lets just look at the highlights

moving on to:

Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the "abomination of desolation,'[3]spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Notice Jesus says when you see the abomination of desolation"

The first abomination of desolation had already occurred 198 years before this conversation on the Mount of Olives

and then moving on to:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

A child could understand this Ben...

I think, considering Jesus was sitting with the disciples at the time of this conversation...it's pretty much a given that He's talking about His second coming...even without using the word "second" as He was already there in their presence...:doh:

It's not some "baby lonian" interpretation you have a problem with...it's the words of our Lord Himself...you have a problem with.

The disciples asked him of His coming (odd question to ask if they were not inquiring about His return....since He was sitting right there with Him) and He answered them...quite clearly and plainly...

As we've discussed before...this doctrine of yours is one of the many tangled tethers growing away from the basic truths in Scripture...

One of the reasons...Jesus talked about the faith of a child...the faith of a mustard seed...

A childlike understanding and even the smallest amount of faith can produce marvelous fruit....

without turning into an abomination for the birds of the air to take haven in the branches that grow wildly away from the Spirit of Truth...

Any deeper meaning of truth MUST line up with the basic truth in order to REMAIN truth!

Now, as much as you're enjoying refuting Scripture...I really must move on
</IMG>
You have said nothing; many will be deceived; are you saying you are not deceived that you know the whole truth. The whole world is blind and is dead in trespasses and sin; but the scripture is speaking to the believer, so the believers are the many that are deceived. The "abomination of desolation, in the holy place, is not some muslin icon setting on a earthy temple; that temple was their for the Jews; who no longer have a priesthood nation (Levi was one of the ten tribes scattered). Jesus is my high priest and His temple is with in me not some broken down Jewish temple that has been in ruin for nearly two thousand years. He has already rebuilt his temple; he did it in three days. Where is you holy place; my is my spirit where Christ dwells.

Lighting does not come from the east into the west; light does another faulty translation look at the Greek not the bias translators. Lighting an strike anywhere it dose not rise and set like the sun. He is resin and he reigns with in that is His temple; not some second coming. You just love those extra biblical words to prove your point; sorry they fit perfect in your box; but just shows me a false understanding. Yes you are right a deeper truth does need to line up with scripture; but first you must use the scripture instead of adding word like trinity, second, person, godhead, hell to prove your false claims.

Ben12

3rd October 2007, 09:12 AM

Just wanted to comment on one part of this, we cannot understand Gods Word? It says that the Holy Spirit will lead us into ALL truth. How deeply we are led is based on oiur committment and our hearing the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Also the body is made up of many parts and different people will be led in different ways in order to gain what they need to fulfill Gods purpose in their lives.
Amen, I agree;" the Holy Spirit will lead us into ALL truth; that is the foundation for all I believe " but we following the lead of God's Spirit or man and His religion. Yes their are many members of the body of Christ; in my Father’s house are many mansions (Gk) abode or abiding places).

My Mormon brothers and Catholic brothers and yes even my Jehovah witness brothers have different abiding places. So do you brother have a different abiding place then all of us. My place is not to condemn that abiding place but to seek, ask and knock to know God in a deeper abiding place that I am now.

Mormon and Catholic's are no different then Baptist; in that just like the Jew’s they hold on to the traditions of their Fathers and build religious walls of doctrines and creeds. All truth in there understanding must fit that set mode; with in those hard religious walls.

Jeremiah 2:13

"My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns
that cannot hold water.

You also must remember there are two churches; Babylon as well as the true church. Baby lon is the Hugh religious system of man; the true Church which is Christ dwells with in us all.

bill16652

3rd October 2007, 09:16 AM

Amen, I agree;" the Holy Spirit will lead us into ALL truth; that is the foundation for all I believe " but we following the lead of God's Spirit or man and His religion. Yes their are many members of the body of Christ; in my Father’s house are many mansions (Gk) abode or abiding places).

My Mormon brothers and Catholic brothers and yes even my Jehovah witness brothers have different abiding places. So do you brother have a different abiding place then all of us. My place is not to condemn that abiding place but to seek, ask and knock to know God in a deeper abiding place that I am now.

Mormon and Catholic's are no different then Baptist; in that just like the Jew’s they hold on to the traditions of their Fathers and build religious walls of doctrines and creeds. All truth in there understanding must fit that set mode; with in those hard religious walls.

Jeremiah 2:13

"My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns
that cannot hold water.

You also must remember there are two churches; Babylon as well as the true church. Baby lon is the Hugh religious system of man; the true Church which is Christ dwells with in us all.
You and I believe a little differently in some areas but bottom line to me is do you believe that Christ is the saviour? The Son of the living God who maniifested Himself and gave His life in order to pay our sin debt? Basically are you dsaved is the only question that in the end matters. Do you know Jesus? That cuts across all beliefs that may differ.

Ben12

3rd October 2007, 09:32 AM

You and I believe a little differently in some areas but bottom line to me is do you believe that Christ is the saviour? The Son of the living God who maniifested Himself and gave His life in order to pay our sin debt? Basically are you dsaved is the only question that in the end matters. Do you know Jesus? That cuts across all beliefs that may differ.
This is so shallow; here we are speaking deeply about God’s Word and you ask me if I received Jesus as savior; this is religion highest point; as if that is all there is to God’s Word; yes I am saved. Are you? I am not insulted; I just thing it so typical.

bill16652

3rd October 2007, 09:41 AM

This is so shallow; here we are speaking deeply about God’s Word and you ask me if I received Jesus as savior; this is religion highest point; as if that is all there is to God’s Word; yes I am saved. Are you? I am not insulted; I just thing it so typical.
Actually I wasnt asking you, I can see that you are. I was pointing out that the bottom line is that, yes, it is basic, and certainly not the end. We are to grow to mature in Christ, while I am no theologan and dont claim to be I do know what IO believe and why I believe it. You and I have differing beliefs but that doesnt mean that we are not saved it only means that for whatever reason we have been led in different directions and I am well aware that none of us has all the truth. I am open to being shown I am wrong as long as it is not by just a piece of scripture taken out of context. For me I look a lot at the Jewishness in order to gain a deeper understanding and that is where I am led, for you it may be something completely different.

Ben12

3rd October 2007, 09:58 AM

Actually I wasnt asking you, I can see that you are. I was pointing out that the bottom line is that, yes, it is basic, and certainly not the end. We are to grow to mature in Christ, while I am no theologan and dont claim to be I do know what IO believe and why I believe it. You and I have differing beliefs but that doesnt mean that we are not saved it only means that for whatever reason we have been led in different directions and I am well aware that none of us has all the truth. I am open to being shown I am wrong as long as it is not by just a piece of scripture taken out of context. For me I look a lot at the Jewishness in order to gain a deeper understanding and that is where I am led, for you it may be something completely different.
I appreciate your Christian insight, many of God’s people limit God to their understanding and get very up set if you say anything negative about their believe system. My foundation is God’s anointing with in me; you are right in that God has led me in a different direction; God leads people not systems. I am sorry I am always being attacked because I speak out of the box of this so called god of orthodoxy that is common place in christianity for two thousand years of religious bias and ignorance. I am a Christian Universalist which I will proclaim that Jesus blood has reversed the curse of Adam’s sin.

Zecryphon

3rd October 2007, 10:00 AM

He got crucified didn't he ? Or do you think that is just a fairy tale ?
He was supposed to get crucified!!! That's why He came. To die for the sins of the world. Knock that attitude of yours down a couple of notches, it's so not neccessary and makes you look like a jerk. You can be ignored very easily my friend. I just hope it doesn't have to come to that.

Zecryphon

3rd October 2007, 10:10 AM

This is so shallow; here we are speaking deeply about God’s Word and you ask me if I received Jesus as savior; this is religion highest point; as if that is all there is to God’s Word; yes I am saved. Are you? I am not insulted; I just thing it so typical.

"This is so shallow; here we are speaking deeply about God’s Word and you ask me if I received Jesus as savior; this is religion highest point;"

It's very interesting that you have reacted this way to such a simple question. I've had people ask me if I'm saved, and I don't flip out like this. I don't call the question shallow. In fact, I'm quite often touched that they care enough to inquire about my eternal salvation. Most people are afraid to ask that very question, for fear of getting a response such as the one you have displayed here. It's not the height of religion Ben, it's the depth of love from which this question is asked.

"as if that is all there is to God’s Word; yes I am saved. Are you? I am not insulted; I just thing it so typical."

No, Ben, actually you are insulted. You often say one thing, but always prove you believe another through your actions and reactions.

Ben12

3rd October 2007, 11:17 AM

"This is so shallow; here we are speaking deeply about God’s Word and you ask me if I received Jesus as savior; this is religion highest point;"

It's very interesting that you have reacted this way to such a simple question. I've had people ask me if I'm saved, and I don't flip out like this. I don't call the question shallow. In fact, I'm quite often touched that they care enough to inquire about my eternal salvation. Most people are afraid to ask that very question, for fear of getting a response such as the one you have displayed here. It's not the height of religion Ben, it's the depth of love from which this question is asked.

"as if that is all there is to God’s Word; yes I am saved. Are you? I am not insulted; I just thing it so typical."

No, Ben, actually you are insulted. You often say one thing, but always prove you believe another through your actions and reactions.
No I am not insulted; I just think it silly ans so basic. It is a rudiment, a basic principle and it may be Interesting to you; if it is all you know; basic salvation is your whole foundation as well as agenda; I understand that. You know I believe ultimately God is gong to save all of his creation. Some religions cannot get past the basic salvation message it you could go to their mutual agenda social club all year and that is all they preach. With the exception of why they are right and everyone that does not believe how they see it is going to torture chamber forever.

Colossians2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Main Entry: ru·di·ment
(javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?rudime01.wav=rudiment'))Pronunciation: 'rü-d&-m&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin rudimentum beginning, from rudis raw, rude
1 : a basic principle or element or a fundamental skill -- usually used in plural <teaching themselves the rudiments of rational government -- G. B. Galanti>
2 a : something unformed or undeveloped : BEGINNING (http://foru.ms/dictionary/beginning) -- usually used in plural [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e rudiments of a plan> b (1) : a body part so deficient in size or structure as to be entirely unable to perform its normal function (2) : an organ just beginning to develop : ANLAGE (http://foru.ms/dictionary/anlage)

Zecryphon

3rd October 2007, 11:26 AM

No I am not insulted; I just think it silly ans so basic. It is a rudiment, a basic principle and it may be Interesting to you; if it is all you know; basic salvation is your whole foundation as well as agenda; I understand that. You know I believe ultimately God is gong to save all of his creation. Some religions cannot get past the basic salvation message it you could go to their mutual agenda social club all year and that is all they preach. With the exception of why they are right and everyone that does not believe how they see it is going to torture chamber forever.

Colossians2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Main Entry: ru·di·ment
(javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?rudime01.wav=rudiment'))Pronunciation: 'rü-d&-m&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin rudimentum beginning, from rudis raw, rude
1 : a basic principle or element or a fundamental skill -- usually used in plural <teaching themselves the rudiments of rational government -- G. B. Galanti>
2 a : something unformed or undeveloped : BEGINNING (http://foru.ms/dictionary/beginning) -- usually used in plural [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e rudiments of a plan> b (1) : a body part so deficient in size or structure as to be entirely unable to perform its normal function (2) : an organ just beginning to develop : ANLAGE (http://foru.ms/dictionary/anlage)

Yes we all know you believe God will save all in the end, even though Christ Himself says differently. You can complain all you want about the religions and bias of men and how you're so above that, but in reality you're not. You've just replaced the bias and agendas you've found in the world, with your own. Or with the bias and agenda of J Eby what's his puss?

Ben12

3rd October 2007, 01:49 PM

Zecryphon

3rd October 2007, 02:07 PM

I am not going to lower my self in arguing with you; J Preston and other anointed men are not my Christ; I believe in the Christ in you also when I see it; most of the time I see a very disturbed and flustered religious man. If I quote a scripture you interpret with your bias, cover it up or explain it away. I do the same thing with you; only difference is you believe in Jesus who can’t and is a monster; I believe in a savior who saves to the uttermost. You have given up after 3%.

Matt 18: 12"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost

"I am not going to lower my self in arguing with you;"

Yeah, yeah we know Ben. You're so esteemed and knowledgable you just can't come down from your high horse of "intellectualism" to converse with the common man. Do us all a favor and stay on that horse, please! It's better for everyone if we can all grow in holiness and wisdom and not have to correct half of your post before addressing whatever point it is you're trying to make. LOL

"J Preston and other anointed men are not my Christ;"

Um, yeah they are, actually. You follow the words of these men, and quote them often, while denouncing others for doing the same with the knowledgable people that have come before them and written on things of the Bible.

"I believe in the Christ in you also when I see it; most of the time I see a very disturbed and flustered religious man."

Oh, so now not only am I supposedly beneath you and not worthy of being addressed, I'm also disturbed? LOL C'mon! Where's that Christian Universalist love you're supposed to have for everybody? Oh yeah, that's a lie too. LOL That's the funniest thing I've read today. Thanks for that. LOL

"If I quote a scripture you interpret with your bias, cover it up or explain it away."

No I tell you what it says. You're the one looking for the hidden and esoteric meanings in them. The secret that not everybody knows about, ya know, the source of your pride and ego that's been reflected so clearly in your post thus far. LOL

"I do the same thing with you; only difference is you believe in Jesus who can’t and is a monster; I believe in a savior who saves to the uttermost. You have given up after 3%."

Where are you drawing this number of 3% from? Nobody but you has used this number. Not everyone will make it into Heaven Ben. That's just a sad fact. No one is rejoicing over it. The Bible makes it clear that there will be those in the Lake of Fire who are not saved. It never mentions anything about these people ever getting out. You have zero scriptures that prove that, no matter how far out of context you'd like to take them. You have an incomplete theology. When pressed on issues like this you always end up saying "I don't know but I know it's not eternal!" How do you know that? You don't, you are letting your feelings influence your belief. In other words you are making a god in your own image, who believes the same things you do, it's idolatry.

"Matt 18: 12"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost"

Yeah, God would love for everyone to be saved. But God knows that not everyone will be saved and He makes that clear in His written word. The fool that says 'there is no God', will have their place in the lake of fire and believe it or not, that DOES bring glory to God. Because that is proof that we have a God that does what He says He will do. He has said He wil punish evil doers. God is an eternal God. If you sin against an eternal God, you are punished for eternity. That is logical and reasonable.

But if everyone eventually gets into Heaven, following your theology, then God does not punish evil doers for eternity and does not follow through on His word. If He does not follow through on His word, then we're all in trouble, because there's a chance that He won't follow through on His word or promise to save those whom He says He came to save. That's a huge problem. So to get around this problem, you have to start redefining words and saying they mean things they clearly do not mean.

Ben12

3rd October 2007, 02:09 PM

"I am not going to lower my self in arguing with you;"

Yeah, yeah we know Ben. You're so esteemed and knowledgable you just can't come down from your high horse of "intellectualism" to converse with the common man. Do us all a favor and stay on that horse, please! It's better for everyone if we can all grow in holiness and wisdom and not have to correct half of your post before addressing whatever point it is you're trying to make. LOL

"J Preston and other anointed men are not my Christ;"

Um, yeah they are, actually. You follow the words of these men, and quote them often, while denouncing others for doing the same with the knowledgable people that have come before them and written on things of the Bible.

"I believe in the Christ in you also when I see it; most of the time I see a very disturbed and flustered religious man."

Oh, so now I'm disturbed? LOL That's the funniest thing I've read today. Thanks for that. LOL

"If I quote a scripture you interpret with your bias, cover it up or explain it away."

No I tell you what it says. You're the one looking for the hidden and esoteric meanings in them. The secret that not everybody knows about, ya know, the source of your pride and ego.

"I do the same thing with you; only difference is you believe in Jesus who can’t and is a monster; I believe in a savior who saves to the uttermost. You have given up after 3%."

Where are you drawing this number of 3% from? Nobody but you has used this number. Not everyone will make it into Heaven Ben. That's just a sad fact. No one is rejoicing over it. The Bible makes it clear that there will be those in the Lake of Fire who are not saved. It never mentions anything about these people ever getting out. You have zero scriptures that prove that, no matter how far out of context you'd like to take them. You have an incomplete theology. When pressed on issues like this you always end up saying "I don't know but I know it's not eternal!" How do you know that? You don't, you are letting your feelings influence your belief.

"Matt 18: 12"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost"

Yeah, God would love for everyone to be saved, as I would. But God knows that not everyone will be saved. The fool that says 'there is no God', will have their place in the lake of fire and believe it or not, that DOES bring glory to God. Because that is proof that we have a God that does what He says He will do. He has said He wil punish evil doers for eternity, if everyone eventually gets into Heaven, following your theology, then God does not punish evil doers for eternityand does not follow through on His word. If He does not follow through on His word, then we're all in trouble, because there's a chance that He won't follow through on His word or promise to save those whom He says He came to save. That's a huge problem.
God bless you and yours

Followers4christ

4th October 2007, 05:10 AM

Praise God for no flesh will be saved; Please Lord distroy my flesh.

God could care less about some Jewish Temple that will never be built; He cares for the Temple of God with in us. The outward temple, feast etc were examples that points to the true temple of God with in. Just Abomination of desolation is in my Temple and in yours, it is our beastual nature, carnal mind, Baby lon, the harlot.

People said the same thing about Israel.People said that Israel would never be reborn and that the scriptures were talking about spiritual Israel (the church).But God rebuilt Israel in one day (Isaiah 66:8) just as he promised in May 14th, 1948 the nation of Israel was reborn.Just as he will rebuild his temple in Israel.

Rebuilt temple in Israel anticipated (Daniel 9:27; 12:11; Mark 13:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 11:1-2). The prophet Daniel, Jesus, Paul, and John all refer to the temple in the last days. Therefore we know it must be rebuilt. Preparations by the Temple Institute are nearly complete! God Bless

Jeremiah 30:3 The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD."

Ezekiel 34:12-13 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.

Ezekiel 36:24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.

Followers4christ

4th October 2007, 05:48 AM

You all have made a Hugh doctrine of doom and gloom out of the twice mention words “Great tribulation” which simply means great pressure.

The Great Tribulation is found throughout the bible.In Revelation chapter 8 we are told about the seven trumpets and how God will pour down his wrath upon the earth after the saints are caught up.We are also told about the coming of the anti-christ and how he will force everyone rich and poor to receive his mark (Revelation 13:11-18, 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).We are also told of the persecutions of believers that came to Christ during the great tribulation (Matthew 24:9,Revelation 20:4).We are told to expect frequent earthquakes and famines, well as nations rising against nations (Matthew 24:7-8).The Bible also tells us that in the last days people will turn to their own sinful ways instead of turning to God (2 Timothy 3:1-5).The Battle of armageddon between Israel and its enemies will be the last battle fought by man (Zechariah 14:12-15).The end times will be the most terrible times imagined.But through Christ we do not fear the times ahead but rejoice in them for when we see the signs we know that our savior is ready for his bride.

God loves us all so much that he warned us of what is to come.You can choose to deny what the word of God says about the end times all you want.But you cannot change what is already written.God Bless

Followers4christ

4th October 2007, 06:45 AM

JHM

4th October 2007, 11:28 PM

Bye Now

MichaelTheeArchAngel

4th October 2007, 11:42 PM

Does anyone here know what this means :

Isaiah 54 : 1 (Jerusalem Bible)
Shout for joy, you barren women who bore no children !
Break into cries of joy and gladness you who were never in labour !
For the sons of the forsaken one are more in number
than the sons of the wedded wife, says Yahweh.

When the kings of the north; in battle set forth; ill befell many kings of the south;
Those who’d sat on the wall; and not answered the call; soon died with their dung in their mouth.
For the sun hid its face; of the moon not a trace; as a terrible winter set in;
When there grew not a thing; and long before spring; even Jacob was hungry and thin.
For again The Lord chose Jacob; more survived of him than the Bride;
And Jews outnumbered Christians; so many false Christians died.
When Earth’s cities lay battered; fallen and shattered; survivors were scattered and few;
All ragged and tattered; he’d not thought it mattered; the harlot had hailfire too.
Isaiah 54 is about the thousand year reign of Christ here on earth.

JHM

5th October 2007, 12:12 AM

MichaelTheeArchAngel

5th October 2007, 12:28 AM

My own view is that the "forsaken one" is Israel, (the Jews), while the "Wedded Wife" is the "Bride of Christ" - the Christian church; and that when Christ returns to rule the Earth after the coming destruction, he will find more survivors in Israel than he will find surviving members of the Christian church. I have yet to transfer all of my info from my other computer, and after that it has to be upgraded. And besides all of that, I keep many notes in my Concordance and else where. In regards to the words Israel, Jew, and Zion; those words are also used parabolically.

Ben12

11th October 2007, 11:57 AM

People said the same thing about Israel.People said that Israel would never be reborn and that the scriptures were talking about spiritual Israel (the church).But God rebuilt Israel in one day (Isaiah 66:8) just as he promised in May 14th, 1948 the nation of Israel was reborn.Just as he will rebuild his temple in Israel.

Rebuilt temple in Israel anticipated (Daniel 9:27; 12:11; Mark 13:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 11:1-2). The prophet Daniel, Jesus, Paul, and John all refer to the temple in the last days. Therefore we know it must be rebuilt. Preparations by the Temple Institute are nearly complete! God Bless

Jeremiah 30:3 The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD."

Ezekiel 34:12-13 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.

Ezekiel 36:24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.

You are naturalizing God’s Word; when it should be spirit and life. Many of God’s people carnalize the truth because they cannot comprehend what is spiritual. God’s Temple referred to in the above verses are speaking of the true temple and a truly spiritual called out people of God (God’s spiritual is the real, the natural is the unreal or temporal). Yes all Israel will be saved; that is God’s purpose. Jesus is the corner stone of the temple (He is not a natural rock carved out by human craftsman; but instead he is the spiritual stone that holds the whole spiritual temple together) ; all the temples furnishings, location, feast of the old temple order point to a spiritual reality; a reality beyond what is made with human hands; made by God. God uses all theses types and shadows in scripture because we cannot see His reality as well as because of religious corrupt men have altered the truth. But the picture language of the Bible has unchangeableness where religious men did not understand what God’s Spirit was saying; so they cannot not altar God’s Word.

Look at the lamp stand: Isaiah 11:2

The lampstand was a piece of furniture that was in the Tabernacle in the wilderness as well as both temples. Like all the furniture in the temple there was always a much deeper and awesome meaning. I am just going to touch on a few thought I thought were interesting. So often God hides his glory from carnal man by types, shadows, parables, mysteries and hidden manna.

Lamp stand was made by beaten gold; that is the craftsman would literally beat the gold to desired shape. Gold is symbolic of divine life which takes trials and tribulations to accomplish.

The lamp had seven staffs attached to one staff; symbolic of seven spirits of God in Isaiah 11:2; but one God.

Fire is symbolic of the purging power of Holy Spirit. Everyday the priest would have to immerse the lamp in olive oil (symbolic of god’s anointing) and light the lamp with fire.

Then the light was placed in the Holy Place for light. The first court or the outer court had no lamp but was lit by the sun by day; but at night there was no lamp. The Holy of Holies also had no lamp for God’s Glory would be all the light it needed on the day of atonement.