Question for our dear PaladinValer! And anybody else that wants to answer!

[DarkNLovely]

I'm addressing this to PalVal in particular because we had a talk about it before but anybody can respond.

Remember when I asked if we could petition our reletives that have died to pray for us? You said yes and while I didn't agree with the practice, it made lots of sense to me. Well, somebody else said that you can't becasue they can't interact with us an only our spiritual ancestors can. That kinda confused me so I was wondering if you would care to share more on the matter. Thanks a million! :wave:

[DarkNLovely]

Ok false alarm! They meant people who weren't Christians! But this will still be a great topic. I would feel far more comfortable petitiong ancestors!

[Aymn27]

I'm addressing this to PalVal in particular because we had a talk about it before but anybody can respond.

Remember when I asked if we could petition our reletives that have died to pray for us? You said yes and while I didn't agree with the practice, it made lots of sense to me. Well, somebody else said that you can't becasue they can't interact with us an only our spiritual ancestors can. That kinda confused me so I was wondering if you would care to share more on the matter. Thanks a million! :wave:
the deceased...even in Christ...are not omnipotent or omnipresent...so they cannot hear or know what you are praying for....I believe they do pray..for us..as we can pray for them...but all prayer should be focused to God through Christ and not "on behalf of" or "by" a deceased saint..does that make any sense? If not, I'll try to find the link to N.T. Wright's discussion on the topic..

[DarkNLovely]

I agree with Amyn! It's just interesting still as it is one way or another a part of Christianity. I don't believe it personally, but I do not condemn others that do.

[Iosias]

Keep an eye out here (http://churchsociety.org/crossway/index.htm)for the articles as they become available online.

In the meantime:
Prayers for the Dead (http://www.churchsociety.org/publications/documents/CAT003_PrayersforDead.pdf)

[ebia]

the deceased...even in Christ...are not omnipotent or omnipresent...so they cannot hear or know what you are praying for....I believe they do pray..for us..as we can pray for them...but all prayer should be focused to God through Christ and not "on behalf of" or "by" a deceased saint..does that make any sense? If not, I'll try to find the link to N.T. Wright's discussion on the topic..
It would be good to read +Tom on the matter if you can find it.

[PaladinValer]

I'm addressing this to PalVal in particular because we had a talk about it before but anybody can respond.

Remember when I asked if we could petition our reletives that have died to pray for us? You said yes and while I didn't agree with the practice, it made lots of sense to me. Well, somebody else said that you can't becasue they can't interact with us an only our spiritual ancestors can. That kinda confused me so I was wondering if you would care to share more on the matter. Thanks a million! :wave:

The biggest thing that trips people up when it comes to the petitioning of those who have passed on is that they often assume that such prayers are somehow sources of grace that we give unto each other.

Petitioning the Saints and the saints is not a salvific act. While Grace can be a result, it isn't because of someone's actual interceedence but because of the grace that naturally comes when you willfully cooperate with the Holy Spirit. In other words, there is not a "treasury of merits" found in heaven, but there are two other parts of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that we can turn to for comfort, compassion, love, and communion.

When we pray, they pray. When they pray, we pray. When we celebrate the Mass, they too celebrate it with us. Prayer is not really ever personal. If you need reference, take a look at the Lord's Prayer:

"Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your Name.
Your Kingdom come; Your Will be done,
On Earth as in heaven.
Give us each day our daily bread,
And forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.
Save us from the time of trial,
And rescue us from the evil one.
For the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory are Your's, unto the ages of ages.
Amen."

Even this supposedly personal prayer between "Abba and son" is simply filled with the theology in which I speak of.

When we pray that, it isn't on behalf of just the person who says it, it is on behalf of all who believe. Don't those who have passed on still believe? Cannot we still pray for God's mercy for them? Even if you were to think that their fate is sealed, is it not our furvent duty to invoke God's mercy even on those who are probably doomed anyway? Why else did Abraham bargain with God? We knew the people of Sodom were doomed and so did Abraham. Yet he still asked God to spare them.

Petitioning with those who have passed on is simply another way the Holy Spirit connects us. It is simply an active application of our communion with them. We don't need to establish it; it already exists!

the deceased...even in Christ...are not omnipotent or omnipresent...so they cannot hear or know what you are praying for.

The Holy Spirit has not left them. We are in communion with them through the same Holy Spirit that is with us.

Prayer goes beyond simply senses. It touches upon the very soul.

[No Swansong]

Those who have gone on before us are not omniscient, nor are they omnipresent. I see no reason to believe that they can hear our requests for intercession. That does not mean that they cannot intercede as they are still part of the Body. I certainly intend to intercede for those left behind when I die, but I truly do not believe that I will know know when and what they may ask me to intercede for.

[Albion]

Those who have gone on before us are not omniscient, nor are they omnipresent. I see no reason to believe that they can hear our requests for intercession. That does not mean that they cannot intercede as they are still part of the Body. I certainly intend to intercede for those left behind when I die, but I truly do not believe that I will know know when and what they may ask me to intercede for.

Right. The arguments made for praying to the saints usually are based upon a verbal slight of hand.

1) confusing, intentionally or not, praying FOR us with being prayed to BY us.

2) presenting"Communion of Saints" as if it means being in touch with each other rather than its actual meaning--the unity of all believers, here or in the afterlife.

3) Speaking as though it is taken for granted that the dead can hear us, and

4) Theorizing that we need a human intermediary in order to induce God to grant our requests, when Jesus taught the opposite.

[gtsecc]

I am not sure we can find anyone rejection of the idea that we can pray with the saints, before the Reformation. Again, this is another belief which is a reaction against Roman and has good intention, but is also a great example of what not checking personal exegesis against the Church teaching can do. In this case, one problem is that it causes disunity.



Here is a piece of the Gregorian Canon from the 6th century - let's see if Saints are prayed with during the Eucharist:



In communion with, and venerating first the memory of the glorious and ever-virgin Mary, Mother of our Lord and God Jesus Christ; and also of thy blessed apostles and martyrs Peter and Paul, Andrew, James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Jude: Linus, Cletus, Clement, Xystus, Cornelius, Cypian, Laurence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian and of all thy saints, through whose prayers grant that in all things we may be guarded by the help of thy protection. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

[pjw]

is there a difference between saying "through the prayers of the saints (or a saint)" or saying "joining our prayers with those of all the saints" or "st. peter pray for us." ?

personally, even as a protestant, i see nothing wrong with the first two of these, although i wouldn't be comfortable with the third.

[PaladinValer]

pjw,

The Church prays together always, so your second quotation shouldn't really be of any disagreement.

The third quotation is what pretty much all Apostolic Christians do when we petition the Saints and saints.

As for the first quotation, since those in heaven and sheol are always praying for us, I really don't see how it could possibly be of any problem either.

[No Swansong]

I am not sure we can find anyone rejection of the idea that we can pray with the saints, before the Reformation. Again, this is another belief which is a reaction against Roman and has good intention, but is also a great example of what not checking personal exegesis against the Church teaching can do. In this case, one problem is that it causes disunity.



Here is a piece of the Gregorian Canon from the 6th century - let's see if Saints are prayed with during the Eucharist:



In communion with, and venerating first the memory of the glorious and ever-virgin Mary, Mother of our Lord and God Jesus Christ; and also of thy blessed apostles and martyrs Peter and Paul, Andrew, James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Jude: Linus, Cletus, Clement, Xystus, Cornelius, Cypian, Laurence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian and of all thy saints, through whose prayers grant that in all things we may be guarded by the help of thy protection. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
I don't question that our prayers are joined to the Eucharistic prayers of the saints throughout the ages as the sacrifice of Christ unites us all. However, asking for intercession for let's say "St. so and so please pray for me that I find my car keys" is not the same as celebrating the same Eucharist. In the same way our Eucharistic prayers are joined together every week to the week before and to next week.

[ebia]

I don't question that our prayers are joined to the Eucharistic prayers of the saints throughout the ages as the sacrifice of Christ unites us all. However, asking for intercession for let's say "St. so and so please pray for me that I find my car keys" is not the same as celebrating the same Eucharist. In the same way our Eucharistic prayers are joined together every week to the week before and to next week.
Indeed. I would imagine that most if not all Anglicans are ok with the idea that we are all praying together. The disagreements concern the validity of directing petitions to the saints (can they hear such petitions; do they have the power to process incredible number of petitions that would be directed to, say, St Mary; does this raise them to some kind of "superhuman" status; does it tend to take the place of praying to God).

I'll admit that moving, as I do, between RCC (school) and Evangelical Anglican (parish) it's an area that I'm still rather undecided on; and perhaps rather uncomfortable with either of the extremes - the lengthy marian devotions of some of my RCC collegues or the absolute elimation of even the simplest, most generalised, petition to the saints of some of my Evanglical friends.

[No Swansong]

Indeed. I would imagine that most if not all Anglicans are ok with the idea that we are all praying together. The disagreements concern the validity of directing petitions to the saints (can they hear such petitions; do they have the power to process incredible number of petitions that would be directed to, say, St Mary; does this raise them to some kind of "superhuman" status; does it tend to take the place of praying to God).

I'll admit that moving, as I do, between RCC (school) and Evangelical Anglican (parish) it's an area that I'm still rather undecided on; and perhaps rather uncomfortable with either of the extremes - the lengthy marian devotions of some of my RCC collegues or the absolute elimation of even the simplest, most generalised, petition to the saints of some of my Evanglical friends.
Ebia thank you for helping me to voice my thought more clearly. Indeed I also attend a Roman Catholic University and attend a rather broad Church Parish. Hey we have something in common. Cool.

[Albion]

is there a difference between saying "through the prayers of the saints (or a saint)" or saying "joining our prayers with those of all the saints" or "st. peter pray for us." ?

personally, even as a protestant, i see nothing wrong with the first two of these, although i wouldn't be comfortable with the third.

I think you've put things in proper focus there. The saints pray to God. We pray to God. We may, therefore, confidently say that we are joining our prayers...to God.

But praying TO A SAINT is something altogether different. Obviously it is, since the recipient, or intended recipient, is a different being!

Then too, when praying to a saint, what is the point? Oh, it's to ask that saint either to grant a request or to pass it along to the Father on our behalf.

Either of those notions is quite unBiblical.

[ebia]

Then too, when praying to a saint, what is the point? Oh, it's to ask that saint either to grant a request or to pass it along to the Father on our behalf.

Either of those notions is quite unBiblical.
The idea that we can ask someone to pray for us is unbiblical?

[PaladinValer]

The idea that we can ask someone to pray for us is unbiblical?

I ditto ebia.

I'd argue that the idea that someone cannot pray for another is actually against the very essence of the Bible and of the Christian faith and practice.

[ebia]

I ditto ebia.

I'd argue that the idea that someone cannot pray for another is actually against the very essence of the Bible and of the Christian faith and practice.
I asked the question because I suspect that's not actually what he meant to say, but I'm not entirely sure what he did mean to say.

[No Swansong]

The idea that we can ask someone to pray for us is unbiblical?
ebia I think that what Albion was referring to as being unbiblical are the notions that either we can petition a saint to do something for us, such as granting us grace or helping us find our keys etc, or that we can ask a saint to petition the Father on our behalf.

[ebia]

ebia I think that what Albion was referring to as being unbiblical are the notions that either we can petition a saint to do something for us, such as granting us grace or helping us find our keys etc, or that we can ask a saint to petition the Father on our behalf.
I can see the objection to the former, I don't see that the latter is clearly unbiblical - where does the bible draw a distinction between asking your minister (say) to pray for you and asking a saint to pray for you?

[PaladinValer]

Petitioning St. Andrew to help us find lost things means asking St. Andrew to pray to God that we find our lost things.

Its simply a contraction.

[No Swansong]

I can see the objection to the former, I don't see that the latter is clearly unbiblical - where does the bible draw a distinction between asking your minister (say) to pray for you and asking a saint to pray for you?
I think that is where people start asking questions such as can the saints hear us, can they respond to what might be millions of petitions etc?

We truly have, as far as I know, no evidence that the saints can hear us and if they can that their prayers are any more "influential" than our own. At least with our Pastor we know he heard us and understands what we wish for him to pray for. I have no such knowledge that the same is true for St. Peter for example.

[No Swansong]

Petitioning St. Andrew to help us find lost things means asking St. Andrew to pray to God that we find our lost things.

Its simply a contraction.
To some perhaps I know for a fact it is not for all.

Additionally why? Why would St. Andrew's prayers that I find my keys be any more influential than my own?

[ebia]

I think that is where people start asking questions such as can the saints hear us, can they respond to what might be millions of petitions etc?

We truly have, as far as I know, no evidence that the saints can hear us and if they can that their prayers are any more "influential" than our own. At least with our Pastor we know he heard us and understands what we wish for him to pray for. I have no such knowledge that the same is true for St. Peter for example.
Granted that it does assume that St Peter can hear, understand, has the time to take account of the millions of requests he gets etc, but since the bible doesn't really clear that up either way it seems to be going a bit far to call that "unbiblical" (which, to me at least, implies contrary to with the bible says).

[ebia]

To some perhaps I know for a fact it is not for all.
Do you mean that some people are 'dodgy' on the issue, or some prayers?

Additionally why? Why would St. Andrew's prayers that I find my keys be any more influential than my own?
Hopefully the prayer to St Andy would be in addition to, rather than instead of, your own. Just as one would expect a request to your minister to pray for something would be in addition to... (I will admit that some sources/people do imply that the saints prayers are especially effective.)

[No Swansong]

Granted that it does assume that St Peter can hear, understand, has the time to take account of the millions of requests he gets etc, but since the bible doesn't really clear that up either way it seems to be going a bit far to call that "unbiblical" (which, to me at least, implies contrary to with the bible says).
You see to me that is an interesting distinctive. I do not read "unbiblical" as meaning contrary to Scripture but rather not supported by Scripture.

[No Swansong]

Do you mean that some people are 'dodgy' on the issue, or some prayers?

Well certainly some prayers, especially some Marian prayers, but I was speaking specifically about some individuals who believe that Saints actually affect some type of change, provide for some grace or take some kind of action for them. I know one wonderful middle aged woman who believes that the saints actually take her hand and lead her to lost things etc.


Hopefully the prayer to St Andy would be in addition to, rather than instead of, your own. Just as one would expect a request to your minister to pray for something would be in addition to... (I will admit that some sources/people do imply that the saints prayers are especially effective.)

True.

[PaladinValer]

To some perhaps I know for a fact it is not for all.

Does that change or refute the orthodox understanding of Saintly inteventions however?

Additionally why? Why would St. Andrew's prayers that I find my keys be any more influential than my own?

Prayer is something communal.

Besides, what is wrong with asking someone to, say, pray that you get the job you've applied for? Or that someone recover from the accident she was in? Or even even that his struggle with understanding his discernment?

Saintly intercession may be improperly practiced by some, but by those who do it correctly, it is merely asking others to join with you in prayer, not that they pray and you do not.

[ebia]

You see to me that is an interesting distinctive. I do not read "unbiblical" as meaning contrary to Scripture but rather not supported by Scripture.
Another entry for my mental list of potential sources of misunderstanding.

So, to what extent do your objections still stand if it's properly understood as per P.V.?

[karen freeinchristman]

You see to me that is an interesting distinctive. I do not read "unbiblical" as meaning contrary to Scripture but rather not supported by Scripture.
I find this distinctive very interesting as well. :) I am wondering a lot about what this might mean for us as Christians. Certainly there are many things we do in life that are not supported by Scripture, but are not contrary to Scripture, specifically. Driving a car, for example. But does this distinctive only apply to things that are spiritual? And then where do we draw the line between the spiritual and the non-spiritual parts of our lives, especially if we allow God into all aspects of our lives? Just questions floating through my mind. I'm wondering whether to start a new thread about it.

[Iosias]

I find this distinctive very interesting as well. :) I am wondering a lot about what this might mean for us as Christians. Certainly there are many things we do in life that are not supported by Scripture, but are not contrary to Scripture, specifically. Driving a car, for example. But does this distinctive only apply to things that are spiritual? And then where do we draw the line between the spiritual and the non-spiritual parts of our lives, especially if we allow God into all aspects of our lives? Just questions floating through my mind. I'm wondering whether to start a new thread about it.Driving a car is a spiritually neutral thing. We must ensure our lives are in accordance with God's will of command or his revealled will. If they are then we have a degree of freedom to do what we wish (sort of).

[karen freeinchristman]

Driving a car is a spiritually neutral thing. We must ensure our lives are in accordance with God's will of command or his revealled will. If they are then we have a degree of freedom to do what we wish (sort of).
That's why I asked whether the distinction only applies to spiritual things. And should God not guide every aspect of our lives? Anyway, this is off topic, that's why I thought I would start a new thread. Maybe.

[ebia]

That's why I asked whether the distinction only applies to spiritual things. And should God not guide every aspect of our lives? Anyway, this is off topic, that's why I thought I would start a new thread. Maybe.
Go for it.

[No Swansong]

Does that change or refute the orthodox understanding of Saintly inteventions however?

It does neither it wasn't my intention to refute the purported "Orthodox" understanding of saintly interventions. I haven't been able to find a reference from the Early Church Fathers that speaks of any type of communion with the saints except for the Eucharist. But even if I did I find no precedence in Scripture that calls for the type of intervention you are speaking of,.



Prayer is something communal.

And yet also something that is done in a closet (very private) as well. It is clear that Scripture speaks of both communal and private prayer. We have no better example than Jesus who often prayed to the Father in private, and also with others.

Besides, what is wrong with asking someone to, say, pray that you get the job you've applied for? Or that someone recover from the accident she was in? Or even even that his struggle with understanding his discernment?

Absolutely nothing, have I implied that there is? I don't understand how my post prompted this question.

Saintly intercession may be improperly practiced by some, but by those who do it correctly, it is merely asking others to join with you in prayer, not that they pray and you do not.

Well I wouldn't really know what would be the proper or improper practice as I do not utilize such intercession and that is because I find no Scriptural support for or against the practice. (Certainly the saints are still alive so the warning against necromancy doesn't seem to apply) I have plenty of examples in Scripture of intercessory prayer, just none that speak of intercessory prayer from one who has physically died.

This isn't really an issue I get very worked up about. At worse I see asking for the intercession of a saint as a waste of time. Additionally I see no reason to believe that God would be more inclined to answer prayer because it comes from St. Peter instead of from me.

Does that answer your question? I am pretty heavily medicated right now and I think I may have wondered off on a tangent. If so please have patience I will try again.

[No Swansong]

I find this distinctive very interesting as well. :) I am wondering a lot about what this might mean for us as Christians. Certainly there are many things we do in life that are not supported by Scripture, but are not contrary to Scripture, specifically. Driving a car, for example. But does this distinctive only apply to things that are spiritual? And then where do we draw the line between the spiritual and the non-spiritual parts of our lives, especially if we allow God into all aspects of our lives? Just questions floating through my mind. I'm wondering whether to start a new thread about it.


I completed a very interesting class in Ethics a few quarters ago. Give me a little time I'll post some really interesting stuff to help answer your question.

[No Swansong]

Another entry for my mental list of potential sources of misunderstanding.



I don't know about you but my list just grows and grows and grows. Sometimes I can't make a post without it being all jaberwocky.

[karen freeinchristman]

I completed a very interesting class in Ethics a few quarters ago. Give me a little time I'll post some really interesting stuff to help answer your question.
Great! :) We've got a new thread going for this, and I'm sure it would benefit by input from what you've learned. :thumbsup: