Holocaust Debate thread

[Elife3]

What do you think? Holocaust or Holohoax?

[Reformationist]

What do you think? Holocaust or Holohoax?

Are you asking whether the holocaust happened at all or simply wondering whether it was to the extent alleged following WWII?

God bless

[SoundCard]

..Whaaaaaaaaaaat?! How can anyone believe that the Holocaust didn't happen? It was a horrific event carried out by extremely vile people, it was genocide! To deny that it happened is a slap to the face of anyone who survived it, as well as families of victims of it! God rest their souls, and watch over those who still feel the wake of that tragedy.

[ThePreacherman]

What do you think? Holocaust or Holohoax?

To think the Holocaust didn't happen is about as ridiculous as believing Christ didn't exist.

And that Elvis was taken up by a spaceship somewhere.

Just one, in a long line, of idiotic conspiracy theories.

But there is one thing that disturbs me about the attention being given to the holocaust, is the lack of attention that has been given to all the millions that were murdered by the Comunist regimes of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. Why have they been given a free ride ?

[DeanM]

The idea that there was no holocaust was started as part of white-supremacist rhetoric. It's utter crap. And as far as Mel Gibson goes, he can believe it if he wants to. It's just another notch in his belt of worthless lies.

[ladybug1980]

Isn't there just too many firsthand sources of information, including an abundance of primary source documents to confirm the Holocaust?

Even those who don't deny the Holocaust but bear anti-Jewish sentiment may try to claim that the deaths of the Holocaust were exaggerated, quantitatively, etc., and that the alleged exaggeration was a ploy to evoke sympathy for Jews. It's called the classic conspiracy theory regarding the Holocaust. Frankly, I find that conspiracy theorists become obsessed with what they believe, after a point.

[JHM]

I can't post images here yet; because I don't have 100 posts yet. I no longer have the books that I used to have when I studied the second world war; but I can assure you the Holocaust was real enough. I saw pictures of the victims in the books I studied. I have in front of me as I type last Wednesdays edition of the National Post Newspaper; which has one of the most horrifying front page stories I have ever seen complete with photo.

The story is titled "The Nazis Little Mascot" It is derived from a book recently published in Austrailia titled "The Mascot". It is about a 5 year old Jewish boy child who saw his mother shot, and his brother and sister bayoneted while hiding in a treetop. He escaped and lived alone in a forest for months before being captured by a patrol and turned over to the 15th Latvian SS division, which apart from Dirlewanger's Brigade had the reputation of being the worst and most bloodthirsty of the lot.

A Nazi sergeant named Jekabs Kulis separated the boy from the other prisoners bound for concentration camps, and warned him never to reveal he was Jewish. The child was adopted by the 15th Latvian SS Division as their mascot, and spent the duration of the war with them, watching atrocities, (jews herded into synagogues which were then torched), while fearing for his own survival. The 15th Latvian SS Division was the last unit fighting in Berlin when the Russians invaded the city having first pounded the German positions with a 40,000 gun artillery barrage. The child survived the war and emigrated to Australia where he still lives.

[GrannieAnnie]

With respect to the original poster....I'm not sure the question even deserves a comment or an answer.......

Here's a similar question......is the Pope a Catholic......drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[HeyHomie]

To think the Holocaust didn't happen is about as ridiculous as believing Christ didn't exist.

And that Elvis was taken up by a spaceship somewhere.


What! :eek: You're saying he wasn't?!?!?! :eek:

[christianmomof3]

I think there is really something wrong with people who believe the idea that it was a hoax and with the whole concept in general. Why would someone come up with the concept that it did not happen? What would the purpose of that be? What means would it serve?

Of course it happened. My uncle escaped from a concentration camp in Poland. He and 4 of his 13 brothers and sisters survived and made it to the USA.

It was a horrible tragic thing that happened and is an example of man's inhumanity towards other men.

And what was dreadful then was that so many people just turned their backs on it and pretended it was not happening.

I don't know if those who try to pretend it never happened now are just total idiots or white supremists or wierdo conspiracy theorists or what, but it was an actual event that happened.

[Ishida]

There are people who seriously believe that? Even if the deaths are "exaggerated", it's still a great tragedy.

[New_Wineskin]

What do you think? Holocaust or Holohoax?

There are two types of people who think that the Holocaust is fake ...

a) the most hateful people who are liars .

b) those who hang around with a) and easily swayed eventually becoming a) .

[jive4005]

Truth is truth. It happened. First in egypt, then babylonia, then with the nazis...
Nothing new under the sun!

Also, denying any evil is the same as being an accomplice.

His,
Rev J

[GrannieAnnie]

I can't post images here yet; because I don't have 100 posts yet. I no longer have the books that I used to have when I studied the second world war; but I can assure you the Holocaust was real enough. I saw pictures of the victims in the books I studied. I have in front of me as I type last Wednesdays edition of the National Post Newspaper; which has one of the most horrifying front page stories I have ever seen complete with photo.

The story is titled "The Nazis Little Mascot" It is derived from a book recently published in Austrailia titled "The Mascot". It is about a 5 year old Jewish boy child who saw his mother shot, and his brother and sister bayoneted while hiding in a treetop. He escaped and lived alone in a forest for months before being captured by a patrol and turned over to the 15th Latvian SS division, which apart from Dirlewanger's Brigade had the reputation of being the worst and most bloodthirsty of the lot.

A Nazi sergeant named Jekabs Kulis separated the boy from the other prisoners bound for concentration camps, and warned him never to reveal he was Jewish. The child was adopted by the 15th Latvian SS Division as their mascot, and spent the duration of the war with them, watching atrocities, (jews herded into synagogues which were then torched), while fearing for his own survival. The 15th Latvian SS Division was the last unit fighting in Berlin when the Russians invaded the city having first pounded the German positions with a 40,000 gun artillery barrage. The child survived the war and emigrated to Australia where he still lives.
And the sad thing about this boy/man, is that the Australian Jews reject him for surviving. They will not acknowledge him because he allowed himself to be raised by the Nazis and they say he should have delared himself to be a Jew.....they say he was a coward and a traitor to the Jews. And I think that's disgusting...he was a child, he survived the best way he could. He was lucky he was blonde and blue eyed and looked like the perfect arian....no one suspected he was a jew. He was in Nazi propaganda papers and seen to be like all Nazi children..... He lived, he survived who could blame him for that, but the Australian Jews reject him for it.

[united4Peace]

What do you think? Holocaust or Holohoax?
What?? :scratch:

sorry skipping over other responses and just responding to this...

What kind of Question is this??
Im sorry if Im comming across rude however my husbands grandmother was in the concentration camp, lived through it...and she wasnt even Jewish!!
Hitler was evil! Concentration camps were real...the Holocaust was very very real....:sigh:

[Avatar]

It happened!

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2007/04/02/holocaust00.jpg

http://www.utexas.edu/features/2005/holocaust/graphics/holocaust5.jpg


http://www.rjgeib.com/biography/europe/germany/holocaust.jpg

Thanks. Now I'm crying because I had to look at those to show you the truth!

[united4Peace]

:sorry:

That link should be removed...
Read under Gender Differences which angered me...
Then read under Whites...Whoa :eek:
Half way down the page I nearly lost it!! What a way to turn one off of Christianity...I pray to God some lost soul doesnt come across that link!!

[Andra]

This makes me sick. Iwatched a documentary on the History channel a few months back. It had an interview with a former Nazi. He never apologized for his part but he wanted to be clear that it did happen and that he was part of it.


in the Auschwitz series, an interview with the former guard Oskar Groening who insisted repeatedly and seemingly shamelessly that it hadn't been so bad, he'd enjoyed his work, before finally blurting out his reasons for agreeing to be filmed. He had always refused to talk about Auschwitz even to his own family but now he wanted to give witness against the Holocaust deniers, such as friends at his local philately club, who had insisted the camps were all a lie. That was why he said on film: "I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections took place. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened, because I was there."

[JHM]

Yes the Holocaust was unquestionably real; and will undoubtably influence the judgement of a lot of people. Less common knowledge, is the fact that upwards of 1,000,000 German soldiers, many of whom were in no way connected with the Holocaust, died of starvation after the war was over while held captive by the allies. For that too I suspect there will ultimately be a price to be paid.

[Avatar]

Yes the Holocaust was unquestionably real; and will undoubtably influence the judgement of a lot of people. Less common knowledge, is the fact that upwards of 1,000,000 German soldiers, many of whom were in no way connected with the Holocaust, died of starvation after the war was over while held captive by the allies. For that too I suspect there will ultimately be a price to be paid.
Is this true? I've never heard that. Link please.

[JHM]

Don't have one. Found that out by reading books. From the time I was ten until the time I was in my thirtys I studied the second world war.

[Avatar]

Don't have one. Found that out by reading books. From the time I was ten until the time I was in my thirtys I studied the second world war.
Don't think its true. I'm familar with the second world war too, and I've never heard anything like that. If it was true you'd think Germany would hold this up as a pretty important historical event, no? Anyway, going to do some online research about this now.

[Avatar]

Well that didn't take long, surprised you haven't reasearched this for yourself.

The claim to about 1 million German POW's who died at the the allied camps
was presented in a book by Canadian James Bacque, a novelist who has
absolutely no credentials or reputation as a historian. Some comments
on the work were made by Prof. Stephen Ambrose, director of the Eisenhower
Center at the University of New-Orleans (a thorough refutation appears
in the NYT, Feb. 24, 1991). Ambrose does admit that there was mistreatment
of German POW's in the spring and summer of 1945, but adds:

"When scholars do the necessary research, they will find Mr. Bacque's
work to be worse than worthless. It is seriously - nay, spectacularly -
flawed in its most fundamental aspects". For example, Bacque's
extrapolation of one million deaths is based on on a typographical error
in a single army medical report. Ambrose wrote "[Bacque] arrived at
his most basic conclusion, a death rate at all camps of 30 percent, by
dividing the 21,000 deaths by the 70,000 prisoners [listed in the
report]... all other figures in the document make it clear that that the
correct number of the prisoners was 700,000. This would make the death
rate not 30 percent but 3 percent".

In concluding his arguments against Bacque's spurious research, Ambrose
wrote "Mr. Bacque is wrong on every major charge and nearly all his
minor ones". He than quotes Albert Cowdrey, a military historian for
the Department of the Army: "Surely, [Bacque] has reason to be satisfied
with his achievement. He has no reputation as a historian to lose, and
_Other_Losses_ can only enhance his standing as a writer of fiction".


So you read that book, did you? It's been well debunked.

[JHM]

EDIT : I never researched the point online; because I discontinued my studies of the second world war long before I had a computer.

No I didn't read that book. Never heard of him. Most likely it was in a book by David Irving who has a reputation of being a neo Nazi. I don't know the extent to which that reputation is deserved. I read a book of his titled "The Destruction Of Dresden" which is in no way historically inaccurate that I can see. But I have read hundreds of books on the second world war.

Who was Micheal Wittmann ?
Who was Hans Ulrich Rudel ?
Who was Soichi Sugita ?
Hiroshi Nishizawa ? Kinsake Muto ? Erich Hartmann ? Otto Krechmer ? Gunther Prien ? etc.

The story of Dresden reverbrates to this day in Canada where you may recall there has been an ongoing kerfuffle about a dedication to the contribution of bomber command at the national war museum.

[united4Peace]

It happened!

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2007/04/02/holocaust00.jpg

http://www.utexas.edu/features/2005/holocaust/graphics/holocaust5.jpg


http://www.rjgeib.com/biography/europe/germany/holocaust.jpg

Thanks. Now I'm crying because I had to look at those to show you the truth!
Thing is...we need these photo's so that we dont forget...so that no one Forgets what happened!
We need the stories...we can't let them die...

As I said my dh's grandmother was in a camp and though she wasnt a Jew she saw it all and it was horrible, one of her jobs was that she had to dig holes for the dead bodies or she was whipped...put through torture.
Separated from her children...
Hmmm the war then again separated many families...families who would never be the same again :sigh:


Yes...the photo's are horrible but they need to be seen

[JHM]

Agreed !! Irrefutable evidence to silence deniers. I cry every time I tell the story of the woman fighting a mountain lion to save her childs life.

[Svt4Him]

Sometimes I think it's best to not feed the trolls.

I was in Ukraine over the summer and went to a war museum. They had soap made from humans, as well as a glove made from human skin. I asked my brother-in-law why they'd keep that, and he said to remember how bad it actually was.

[Nadiine]

Here's my spin:

If people who have the video footage of these thousands & thousands of people starving in these camps, coming in on long trains, heaped up bodies in huge pits with tractors having to bury them, military personell who saw it and confirm it as truth, written notes and documentations by the Nazi's themselves, and families of the victims STILL ALIVE TODAY who testify, --
yet you can't believe it's a fact, THEN EVEN IF GOD HIMSELF APPEARED TO THEM IN PERSON THEY'DE DENY HE WAS GOD.

These types of people that reject open proof - even visual, prove to me what the Bible teaches about HARD HEARTS.
To these types of people, there is no proof that exists that could convince them of anything that they just don't want to believe. It's a choice - and rebellion.

I say, leave them alone in their blindness.:doh:

[JHM]

I am inclined to agree. Are there any other things, (i.e. areas of blindness), that you think should be dealt with the same way ?

[Nadiine]

I am inclined to agree. Are there any other things, (i.e. areas of blindness), that you think should be dealt with the same way ?
Look at the Pharisees - they had the same type of hard soil that doesn't allow a seed to penetrate into it to take any root or grow.
They disbelieve what they don't want to believe by choice becuz they have a hard heart at the core. God cannot penetrate them with truth - and He then turns them over to their reprobate minds & into further depravity.
Romans 1:18-32 & Rom. 9 shows us this - as He hardened pharaoh's heart --*after Pharaoh first hardened it himself.

There comes a time when God stops working on people and turns them over; WHEN that is, we don't know.
But it's only our job to relay truth and leave the WORK part up to God.

Know when to shake the dust off your feet and depart from that "city", and ask God's discernment in when to stop casting pearls to the swine (unclean who value nothing clean) or giving what is holy to dogs.

You can't MAKE people see truth - only God can. We can sow seeds of truth, we can Water, BUT ONLY GOD CAN CAUSE ROOTS TO GROW & give the increase.

If they want to reject a holocaust that plainly existed, SO BE IT - it just shows the status of their heart (hard & rebellious).
The overwhelming evidence that already exists isn't even enough for them to accept it... what more can WE offer???

Let the blind walk in blindness after sharing truth.
:groupray: for them. Maybe God will change them eventually, who knows.

[Elife3]

Look at the Pharisees - they had the same type of hard soil that doesn't allow a seed to penetrate into it to take any root or grow.
They disbelieve what they don't want to believe by choice becuz they have a hard heart at the core. God cannot penetrate them with truth - and He then turns them over to their reprobate minds & into further depravity.
Romans 1:18-32 & Rom. 9 shows us this - as He hardened pharaoh's heart --*after Pharaoh first hardened it himself.

There comes a time when God stops working on people and turns them over; WHEN that is, we don't know.
But it's only our job to relay truth and leave the WORK part up to God.

Know when to shake the dust off your feet and depart from that "city", and ask God's discernment in when to stop casting pearls to the swine (unclean who value nothing clean) or giving what is holy to dogs.

You can't MAKE people see truth - only God can. We can sow seeds of truth, we can Water, BUT ONLY GOD CAN CAUSE ROOTS TO GROW & give the increase.

If they want to reject a holocaust that plainly existed, SO BE IT - it just shows the status of their heart (hard & rebellious).
The overwhelming evidence that already exists isn't even enough for them to accept it... what more can WE offer???

Let the blind walk in blindness after sharing truth.
:groupray: for them. Maybe God will change them eventually, who knows.
Do you think I'm a PHARISEE?!?!?

[Elife3]

Sorry for the double post but if a typical holocaust debate breaches forum rules, I'm gonna get this closed.

[Avatar]

Sorry for the double post but if a typical holocaust debate breaches forum rules, I'm gonna get this closed.
Good. Get it closed. Wish you hadn't started this thread in the first place.

[FreeinChrist]

Closed at the request of the OP.