What school would you NOT send your child to?

[Xpycoctomos]

-Poll is for Orthodox Only (ALL my comment though).
-Poll is open so what you personally voted for can be viewed.

Except for in extra-ordinary or odd circumstances, where would you usually NOT consider sending your child to school?

This is assuming the best of probable circumstances that would be ideal to that denom/Church (even if this is NOT so in your area):

The Public school is safe and has good reputation.
The Catholic School is not socially liberal or sold-out and has weekly school mass and teaches good family values.
The Protestant School is not socially liberal, has somekind of weekly worship service/gathering and teaches good family values.
Home-schooling: nothing assummed here. since the only version of homeschooling regardless of where you lived would be... you. :)
I am more interested in your comments than the actual poll. It's just a visual but the reasoning is what I care about. If you feel the need to qualify or specify, please do. Obviously it's kind of vague and we all have our own preconceptions.

Xpy

[Khaleas]

Our local high school has a good reputation and is considered safe... well, they can barely pass standards and kids still bring guns to school... So whatever is considered safe and good reputation can be very different than what it actually is... guess it just shows that the other ones are even worse.
I wouldn't send my kid to protestant school but I wouldn't mind using protestant home school stuff where I can see what is being taught and control it.

[Xpycoctomos]

I voted for:
Home-schooling. Because I would not have the patience for it and, I have a prejudice against it based purely on anectodal information (that is, all the people I have ever met there were homeschooled except one). Also, my wife has never expressed true interest... If she wanted to... I would re-think my view. As of now there is no reason to.

Protestant: I went to a wonderful protestant school that just by example taught me that God is never to be compartmentalized in your life but that He is to permeate everything. It taught me to always examine my conscience and see everything in the light of what GOD would want. However, I never want my child being told that praying to saints is wrong or that confession is unnecessary or ever have him or her constantly questioning their beliefs (Catholicism tends to be hit up on quite a bit in protstant schools relgion classes, even if only inadvertently). Also, the school I went to, while it used to have very wonderfully reverent services, now is much less structured and more akin to a "praise" service and I don't want my child wondering why can't do that :) I am GUESSING that it is similar or worse in non-denominational schools.

Xpy

[Xpycoctomos]

Our local high school has a good reputation and is considered safe... well, they can barely pass standards and kids still bring guns to school... So whatever is considered safe and good reputation can be very different than what it actually is... guess it just shows that the other ones are even worse.
I wouldn't send my kid to protestant school but I wouldn't mind using protestant home school stuff where I can see what is being taught and control it.

But... how in the world is your local hs considered safe when kids are bringing guns to school? And on what basis can it be considered good if it barely passes standards?

We have schools liek that do. We call them crappy and to be avoided. I went to one. I would never send my child there now knowing what I know.

We also have schools that have very good scores (although the question comes in as to what those scores mean?) and are indeed safe. Guns aren't reported there and they would report them becuase here authorities can get jail time for not reporting a fire weapon.

You live in a crazy town! lol

[Xpycoctomos]

khaelas!

Vote!

[Protoevangel]

Comments

Public School - Unfortunately, because of financial difficulty, this is where my children are currently, otherwise, I would have checked it.

Catholic School - Not my first choice, but an option I am/would consider.

Protestant School - This is the only one I checked. I would not be interested in sending my children to a Protestant school, "except for in extra-ordinary or odd circumstances".

Home-school - This would be a great choice. My wife is not so sure, though.

We have an Orthodox school in Portland, and I would love to send my kids to it, except my eldest is too old, and I can't afford it anyway.

[nutroll]

I don't have any kids, so I don't know what I would do. I don't think I would feel comfortable being my child's teacher because I want them to be restricted to what I know. I would want them to learn from others and then from me as well. I personally didn't have any real problems with public schools growing up, but I don't know what it is like to have a child in that school, or whether they will be the same as my experience. I wouldn't mind Catholic school, but doubt I would be able to afford it. I don't know anything about Protestant schools, but I would imagine my kids would get enough of that kind of stuff from my Mom, I don't think they need it in school too. So I guess I would send them to public school initially, and if I find that it is causing problems, I would consider Catholic School if I could afford it, and home schooling if necessary.

[Asinner]

The Public school Yes

The Catholic School Never

The Protestant School Never-ever

Home-schooling: Yes, but only if my spiritual father advised it.


Love,
Christina

[Khaleas]

khaelas!

Vote!
I did before I even posted... duh... :P

[Khaleas]

Quite possibly we'll take our kids and stuff and critters and move to Finland when that time possibly comes. It might be less tailored and individualized but the kids come out with a good education and opportunities. And anything more than a fist fight is rare.
As a comparison, when I went to university here they gave me 18 credits for my high school work. That's no AP or anything like that... just regular classes, what everyone takes.

[Shubunkin]

If I had it to all over again. I checked public school, Catholic school, and Protestant skool. :)

The only thing I would consider now is homeschool.

We tried public schools and Protestant skools.... never again.

[Xpycoctomos]

Okay, it's open again. That wierd.

Comment :)

[Dorothea]

Hmmm, I didn't know how to vote because my oldest son has been in private non-denom. Christian school, public school, and homeschooled (just for a few months when he was around 3), and is now in a private Christian school (Anglican). The only one he hasn't been in is a Catholic school.

It really depends on the school. What's the rating, the info on them, etc.

[MariaRegina]

The problem with U.S. public schools, even if they are good, is that they teach secular humanism and the toleration of evil where homosexuality is an alternate lifestyle and satanism and the wicca movement are acceptable religions.

Read the Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. What they are promoting in the public schools is diabolic.

This is reality, John. And you cannot get away from that.

The Catholic Schools, even the traditional ones by the SSPX, can confuse an Orthodox Christian child, because Catholics believe that they are the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Since the Mass is so similar to our Divine Liturgy (and in the Melkite Church is almost identical except for the mention of the Pope in the communion prayers), this could lead to ecclesiastical confusion and a desire for false unity. I know, I have been there, and while I was a Melkite, I really wanted unity, even if it were a false union.

Since the Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church, they have many beliefs that are dangerous to our Orthodox faith, precisely because they are "cut root Christians" and lack apostolic succession and the true sacraments.

Yes, I am now an Orthodox Christian and I do believe that the Orthodox Faith is the true faith that has been handed down by Christ to the Apostles and now to us in an unchanged manner.

I homeschooled my son, and firmly believe in it. However, some people do not have that luxury, and for them, I believe that establishing an Orthodox School with a few other parents may be the best, especially if the church will allow the use of their facilities during the week.

[Matrona]

I'll send my kids to public school, secular private school, or home-school, but I would never send them to a Roman Catholic or Protestant school - I'm certainly not going to pay for the privilege of having someone try to drive my children away from Orthodoxy and teach them heresy.

Assuming the public school is not a wretched heck-hole, I'll send them there, and whatever I find deficient in their education, I will rectify for them on my own time, and teach them the Faith as well. If the public school is somehow unsalvageable, I'll use private or homeschool, but it would have to be a darned good private school and a very lousy public school. I just don't see the point in paying for education that I'm going to have to augment anyway.

[MariaRegina]

My parents spent a lot of time de-programming us from the effects of our Catholic and public school education.

If the child is born with a clean slate, it is a shame to let anyone else program it with their agenda. However, parents must realize their awesome responsibilities.

Our Orthodox Priest is quick to point out that when parents cuss, their children magnify their cuss words. In one case, the parents came to the priest wondering where their child had picked up a potty mouth only to discover that they were the guilty party. One slip of the tongue is enough.

[MamaBug]

I put home school because I would go stark, raving mad. I'd choose protestant next because many tend to be aggressively against much of what Orthodoxy believes.

In the absence of an Orthodox school, public school is my first choice because it is free. I'd go Catholic reluctantly (non-religious private school would be better) though I'd have no problems sending my kids to my Catholic HS alma mater. Of course, it was a non-archdiocese funded Catholic school with about 1/3 protestant and 1/3 nothing. They promoted Christian values in a way that respected those who were not Catholic.

[paleodoxy]

The problem with U.S. public schools, even if they are good, is that they teach secular humanism and the toleration of evil where homosexuality is an alternate lifestyle and satanism and the wicca movement are acceptable religions.

Read the Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. What they are promoting in the public schools is diabolic.

This is reality, John. And you cannot get away from that.

The Catholic Schools, even the traditional ones by the SSPX, can confuse an Orthodox Christian child, because Catholics believe that they are the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Since the Mass is so similar to our Divine Liturgy (and in the Melkite Church is almost identical except for the mention of the Pope in the communion prayers), this could lead to ecclesiastical confusion and a desire for false unity. I know, I have been there, and while I was a Melkite, I really wanted unity, even if it were a false union.

Since the Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church, they have many beliefs that are dangerous to our Orthodox faith, precisely because they are "cut root Christians" and lack apostolic succession and the true sacraments.

Yes, I am now an Orthodox Christian and I do believe that the Orthodox Faith is the true faith that has been handed down by Christ to the Apostles and now to us in an unchanged manner.

I homeschooled my son, and firmly believe in it. However, some people do not have that luxury, and for them, I believe that establishing an Orthodox School with a few other parents may be the best, especially if the church will allow the use of their facilities during the week.

Aria, you deserve a lot of reps for this post. :)

Your last paragraph expresses what my family and my parish considers to be ideal. My priest told me several times that we are going to make an effort to establish a home/church school, where parents are heavily involved but school is done as an Orthodox Christian community, and at the church builidng.

[paleodoxy]

For the reasons Aria gave, I chose Public School.

[Palaiologos]

Growing up I had the opportunity to be enrolled in both Catholic and Protestant schools. I never had any problems at the schools and they did help incorporate a relationship with Jesus Christ in to our everyday lives. I preferred the Catholic school more, because attending the mass seemed more appropriate of a worship service than the chapel events we had at the protestant school. I would be very nervous sending my children to a public school. I'm not sure how I feel about homeschooling, I think it has potential but I also think it could possibly impede a child's social development if he or she is less exposed to their peers growing up.

[rusmeister]

What I've said about public schools ought to be legend by now. You get what you pay for.

http://foru.ms/t6178056-more-fun-for-educators.html

http://foru.ms/t6072877

[zhilan]

It's a hard choice. Because of my experience in Catholic school I would have a really hard time sending my kids to Catholic school. I know you said for the purposes of this pole that it's a traditional Catholic school, but those are just so rare that I have a hard time accepting it. But -if- it was I guess that would be ok. Actually, I know one of the posters here sends her sons to a traditional Anglican school - I think that would be pretty ideal if there was no Orthodox school. I don't want my kids to go to public school unless I had really checked it out and was really convinced it was a good one. A protestant school I would also have to check out a lot. I'd choose a solid protestant school or a sold public school over a liberal Catholic school. A public school may try to put secularism in kids, but I think liberal Christianity is more damaging than secularism.

[Xpycoctomos]

First, let me start off and say that I am glad you home-schooled your child. That is wonderful and I really have no criticisms for homeschooling.

The problem with U.S. public schools, even if they are good, is that they teach secular humanism and the toleration of evil where homosexuality is an alternate lifestyle and satanism and the wicca movement are acceptable religions.
Well, I agree with you in practicality. I can, however, point out to you at least two Public School systems near me that I knwo for a fact are nothing like that at all. However, I agree that they are the exception, so, point accepted.

Read the Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. What they are promoting in the public schools is diabolic.


Okay, just realize that they is an over-generalization and realize that I am part of the "they". That's fine that you are critical of Public Schools (I'm not even convinced we will send our child to public schools), but just beware that over-generalizations can come across as judgmental against individuals here. I for one can say that you have not described my classroom. But I will assume you are referring to the general environment that is created and forced upon the children at most Public schools by our society (or rather the loudest portion of our society) and the teachers that have been indoctrinated by our Universities. So, in the end, Point taken.

This is reality, John. And you cannot get away from that.

And this is exactly my point Aria. You can't escape it. I agree that it is fine and good the shelter children, but how much you shelter them is certainly a judgment call for each parent to make. There comes a time when children need to understand how to act in a world full of temptations and fuzzy thinking. This isn't about socialization, it's about realizing that, like it or not, "you cannot get away from that." You certainly don't want their first exposure to this to be when they go off on their own to college. I know you're a professor, but professors usually don't get out to the freshman dorms much. Perhaps you do. And perhaps you get involved in their candid conversations. From the Christian colleges to the Secular Colleges it is CRAZY there. I am not talking about parties and drugs and loud music (there's that, but that's another story). But even in the down times (which, in my dorm it was pretty well controlled) the conversations are simply heinous. The men and women talk like sailors and have permiscuous sex all the time. This is very common. I was absoultely SHOCKED (and I had gone to a public high school to two years of Community College before transfering to a State college) and my friends who went to Concordia and other Christian Colleges had much the same experience. But, HOW do you get them practice for dealing wtih these situations on their own (but still under your roof)? Well, that's the question for you and me and Philothei and rumeister, etc. to answer (and I certainly am not saying that Homeschooling K-12 means that you are sheltering them as if they were babies. Home-schooling does not equal "over-protective". But sending your children to "regular" schools does not equal neglect iether. Again, I have no real criticisms of homeschooling. So, while exposing your children to the real world and choosing how and to what degree and when to do this is certainly part of responsible parenting, the bigger question is the example you set for them at home and as their parents.


Yes, I am now an Orthodox Christian and I do believe that the Orthodox Faith is the true faith that has been handed down by Christ to the Apostles and now to us in an unchanged manner.


We agree there!


I homeschooled my son, and firmly believe in it.

As you should. And I can understand why. Honestly, I don't want to talk you or anyone out of it.

However, some people do not have that luxury, and for them, I believe that establishing an Orthodox School with a few other parents may be the best, especially if the church will allow the use of their facilities during the week.
You'd be the perfect person to spearhead such an action. Seriously!

[Tsarina]

I'm judging public schools, catholic schools and protestant schools based on what i've seen and heard in my own city. From what i know, i wouldn't send my kids to any of them, i would rather homeschool them. :) This step majority of the Orthodox community has taken in my city. There is even a rumor that one of our city Churches will open a Orthodox school one day. :)

[Slambo]

I would send my son to a good Catholic school but only so far as they respected his faith. I would send him to public school because they aren't quite as bad here as in other parts of the country (they still have student led prayer) but I would closely monitor what he was being taught. I would not send him to one of the numerous Protestant schools because they are all very evangelical and I don't think they would respect his faith.

All that said, I think we are going to try to homeschool him until high school. Hopefully, by then, we will be able to pool resources and start a small Orthodox school.

[seashale76]

Honestly, it depends on the school in question. There are public schools (though they are few) I would send my own children to (if I had any) and then there are others I wouldn't let them attend if you paid me to do so (the majority). I know how public school teachers are indoctrinated because I am one. I personally disagree with the majority of the garbage we're being taught to promote and I adhere to and promote a classical educational model in my own classes. (I fortunately know plenty of other teachers who agree with me, though they tend to be considerably older than myself.)

Private schools are rather expensive in my neck of the woods. Otherwise, my currently non-existent children might be sent to a Catholic school. I wouldn't have sent any child of mine to a Protestant school even when I was Protestant, so that's right out.

Ideally, I would home-school.

[rusmeister]

It's a hard choice. Because of my experience in Catholic school I would have a really hard time sending my kids to Catholic school. I know you said for the purposes of this pole that it's a traditional Catholic school, but those are just so rare that I have a hard time accepting it. But -if- it was I guess that would be ok. Actually, I know one of the posters here sends her sons to a traditional Anglican school - I think that would be pretty ideal if there was no Orthodox school. I don't want my kids to go to public school unless I had really checked it out and was really convinced it was a good one. A protestant school I would also have to check out a lot. I'd choose a solid protestant school or a sold public school over a liberal Catholic school. A public school may try to put secularism in kids, but I think liberal Christianity is more damaging than secularism.
Just one little thought, Zhilan - what you call liberal Christianity teaches that there is truth, however wrong they may be about it. What you call secularism (I call it the ideology of public education) teaches (covertly, not openly) that there is no absolute truth; that some beliefs can actually be wrong and others right.

[rusmeister]

First, let me start off and say that I am glad you home-schooled your child. That is wonderful and I really have no criticisms for homeschooling.


Well, I agree with you in practicality. I can, however, point out to you at least two Public School systems near me that I knwo for a fact are nothing like that at all. However, I agree that they are the exception, so, point accepted.


Okay, just realize that they is an over-generalization and realize that I am part of the "they". That's fine that you are critical of Public Schools (I'm not even convinced we will send our child to public schools), but just beware that over-generalizations can come across as judgmental against individuals here. I for one can say that you have not described my classroom. But I will assume you are referring to the general environment that is created and forced upon the children at most Public schools by our society (or rather the loudest portion of our society) and the teachers that have been indoctrinated by our Universities. So, in the end, Point taken.



And this is exactly my point Aria. You can't escape it. I agree that it is fine and good the shelter children, but how much you shelter them is certainly a judgment call for each parent to make. There comes a time when children need to understand how to act in a world full of temptations and fuzzy thinking. This isn't about socialization, it's about realizing that, like it or not, "you cannot get away from that." You certainly don't want their first exposure to this to be when they go off on their own to college. I know you're a professor, but professors usually don't get out to the freshman dorms much. Perhaps you do. And perhaps you get involved in their candid conversations. From the Christian colleges to the Secular Colleges it is CRAZY there. I am not talking about parties and drugs and loud music (there's that, but that's another story). But even in the down times (which, in my dorm it was pretty well controlled) the conversations are simply heinous. The men and women talk like sailors and have permiscuous sex all the time. This is very common. I was absoultely SHOCKED (and I had gone to a public high school to two years of Community College before transfering to a State college) and my friends who went to Concordia and other Christian Colleges had much the same experience. But, HOW do you get them practice for dealing wtih these situations on their own (but still under your roof)? Well, that's the question for you and me and Philothei and rumeister, etc. to answer (and I certainly am not saying that Homeschooling K-12 means that you are sheltering them as if they were babies. Home-schooling does not equal "over-protective". But sending your children to "regular" schools does not equal neglect iether. Again, I have no real criticisms of homeschooling. So, while exposing your children to the real world and choosing how and to what degree and when to do this is certainly part of responsible parenting, the bigger question is the example you set for them at home and as their parents.



We agree there!


As you should. And I can understand why. Honestly, I don't want to talk you or anyone out of it.


You'd be the perfect person to spearhead such an action. Seriously!
John, have you read my big thread?

One thing that I now maintain is that it is VERY hard for people who are dependent on the system (parents who need a babysitter and staff who need paychecks) to accept that the system itself may be fatally flawed and in need of de-struction in favor of something else. As you pointed out, that includes you, as well. You have a strong incentive to discount what Aria and I are saying, and you will have it until you are no longer financially dependent on the system (I wasn't able to see this stuff until I left the country). I would think it very hard for anyone with those incentives to read through what I have posted there.

The big misunderstanding I see in some posts here is the assumption that public schools can be truly different one from another. It is true that individuals can take some action allowing for some variety. However, the requirements that all must bow to across all of the United States are fairly uniform, both in terms of what the teachers are required to do (how they are formed) and in how the schools must implement district requirements, which come from the State requirements. Add in incentives for federal funding and you've got something that, while having some apparent variety from place to place, is actually pretty monolithic. It's easier to see this if you have taught in multiple states and locations and have a basis for comparison (How else could you know that the requirements are indeed pretty standard?).

[MariaRegina]

Reps to you, Rus!

[Dorothea]

John, have you read my big thread?

One thing that I now maintain is that it is VERY hard for people who are dependent on the system (parents who need a babysitter and staff who need paychecks) to accept that the system itself may be fatally flawed and in need of de-struction in favor of something else. As you pointed out, that includes you, as well. You have a strong incentive to discount what Aria and I are saying, and you will have it until you are no longer financially dependent on the system (I wasn't able to see this stuff until I left the country). I would think it very hard for anyone with those incentives to read through what I have posted there.

The big misunderstanding I see in some posts here is the assumption that public schools can be truly different one from another. It is true that individuals can take some action allowing for some variety. However, the requirements that all must bow to across all of the United States are fairly uniform, both in terms of what the teachers are required to do (how they are formed) and in how the schools must implement district requirements, which come from the State requirements. Add in incentives for federal funding and you've got something that, while having some apparent variety from place to place, is actually pretty monolithic. It's easier to see this if you have taught in multiple states and locations and have a basis for comparison (How else could you know that the requirements are indeed pretty standard?).
I just wanted to clarify something. My son went to a public school on an air force base for first and second grade. I didn't have problems with it. I do think there is a little bit of variance in the military base schools than regular public schools. Not a huge one, but there is some.

[MsDahl]

I don't feel I can vote on this thread as I am not dead set against any of the schools on the list more than the other. I think there are pros and cons to each type of setting. I will say that my first choice would be to homeschool through the elementary years. However, if that is not financially feasible for my family, I plan on teaching at whatever school I decide to enroll my child in. I am spending quite a bit of prayer on this issue, researching all the schools in my area and just seeking God's wisdom on what is the best option for my family. I trust God. He has never failed me yet in life and I know He will guide me to the right type of schooling for my son when the time arrives.

I agree that it is fine and good the shelter children, but how much you shelter them is certainly a judgment call for each parent to make. There comes a time when children need to understand how to act in a world full of temptations and fuzzy thinking. This isn't about socialization, it's about realizing that, like it or not, "you cannot get away from that." You certainly don't want their first exposure to this to be when they go off on their own to college.

Home-schooling does not equal "over-protective". But sending your children to "regular" schools does not equal neglect iether. Again, I have no real criticisms of homeschooling. So, while exposing your children to the real world and choosing how and to what degree and when to do this is certainly part of responsible parenting, the bigger question is the example you set for them at home and as their parents.


Just wanted to say that I agree with your first paragraph here discussing the protection of one's child and it being a judgment call for each parent. Jesus said that we are to be a light onto the world and that no one lights a lamp and puts it under the basket but puts it on the lampstand. Jesus didn't dine with the religious perfectionists, he dined with the sinners, the "they" in question. While I don't think 8 years old is the ideal time to thrust one's child into that world, ultimately we must prepare to usher our children out into that evil and diabolical world and have faith that our children will be able to remain a light in the darkness.

You have a strong incentive to discount what Aria and I are saying, and you will have it until you are no longer financially dependent on the system (I wasn't able to see this stuff until I left the country). I would think it very hard for anyone with those incentives to read through what I have posted there.

The big misunderstanding I see in some posts here is the assumption that public schools can be truly different one from another. It is true that individuals can take some action allowing for some variety. However, the requirements that all must bow to across all of the United States are fairly uniform, both in terms of what the teachers are required to do (how they are formed) and in how the schools must implement district requirements, which come from the State requirements. Add in incentives for federal funding and you've got something that, while having some apparent variety from place to place, is actually pretty monolithic. It's easier to see this if you have taught in multiple states and locations and have a basis for comparison (How else could you know that the requirements are indeed pretty standard?).


Well, being that I am not dependent financially on the "system" currently, I have no incentive to discredit or credit public schools. While I don't find that public schooling is ideal or measures up to my standards of a good education (I am starting to think my ideal education doesn't exist yet), I don't agree that public schools are what you pit them out to be. I have only taught in the NYS school system, but I have been exposed to a variety of districts from the inner city to the wealthy suburbs to the rural schools within that state and I still hold fast to my belief that public school can be a viable option for many Orthodox Christians. I just don't know if it is God's will for my son's life at this point.

[cassc]

Hm, well I went through the public school system and turned out ok and I think my kids would too. I went to a private secular school for a short time and had to leave because the principal felt that corporal punishment was still an acceptable method of teaching. I couldn't send my kids to a modern Protestant school, it's too, IDK just too out there for me. Every once in a while I think about homeschooling but personally I feel that it is important to learn how to socialize with society at large particularly if you want to teach your children how to resist negativity. I know too many kids who were raised too sheltered and the have big problems today. but of course right now I am no where near picking schools for a kid soo I let the rest of you take over now!

[zhilan]

Just one little thought, Zhilan - what you call liberal Christianity teaches that there is truth, however wrong they may be about it. What you call secularism (I call it the ideology of public education) teaches (covertly, not openly) that there is no absolute truth; that some beliefs can actually be wrong and others right.
I guarantee you, what I was taught in my Catholic school was waaay more destructive than whatever they teach at the local public schools. It's one thing to be taught pluralism and secularism, it's another thing to have Christianity torn apart on top of pluralism and secularism.

I mean, I'm not sure your what you are thinking of, but we were definitely taught there's no absolute truth.

[buzuxi02]

I guarantee you, what I was taught in my Catholic school was waaay more destructive than whatever they teach at the local public schools. It's one thing to be taught pluralism and secularism, it's another thing to have Christianity torn apart on top of pluralism and secularism.

I mean, I'm not sure your what you are thinking of, but we were definitely taught there's no absolute truth.
What exactly goes on in liberal catholic schools?

And how did they become liberal to begin with?

[MamaBug]

I just can't bag on the public school system in general. I was in public school through middle school and my sister throughout - both of us turned out okay (she's Baptist) and this *despite* the fact that we had no religious training in our home whatsoever. I do think it depends on the area you live in and the makeup of the community who controls the school board. Try telling non-LDS people who grew up in Utah that public schools are the same with regards to religion.

We live in a very liberal part of the world, but their are definite sub-pockets of strong conservatives. If I lived in Seattle proper I'd be much more hesitant about sending my children to the local public school than if I lived in the north, south, or east suburbs. I also think it somewhat depends on the child. The biggest issues I had with the public school I attended was the one-size-fits-all form of education. It was easy for a shy kid to get lost in the shuffle and miss out on opportunities those who had pushier parents received. For me, going to a smaller private school was perfect, for my sister public school was great because she had a strong social network in place since kindergarten.

For the record, thanks to state law my son has been attending public preschool since he was 3 years old. The program is excellent and he has made amazing improvements. He has gone from being a 3 year old operating at a 2 year old level to a perfectly normal 4 1/2 year old.

[zhilan]

What exactly goes on in liberal catholic schools?

And how did they become liberal to begin with?

Oh, my where to begin? What part do you want to know about?

The pluralism? Like how the school was less than 30% Catholic, encouraged non-Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Wiccan, etc prayers during the services? Or how they encouraged everyone to take part in consecrating the Eucharist, had liturgical dance and let non-Catholics and even non-Christians receive the Eucharist. How when the priest was late one of the female teachers began offering the Mass.

The secularism? How they taught there's no truth. How we can't judge anyone. How we can't really say that anyone is wrong or right because they are just acting on their morality. Classmates chimed in that we really can't judge Hilter because he was doing what was right based on his moral standpoint. To underline this point we read that story about all the blind people feeling the elephant and they each think it's something different but they are all right.

Or the theology we were taught? That nothing in the Bible actually happened. That Mary wasn't a virgin but virgin just meant "young girl" and that she wasn't sinless. That Jesus didn't actually rise from the dead but that it was an allegory. When I tried to argue with him about that I got in trouble and a few days later the other religion teacher saw me as I was walking in the next morning and cornered me and told me "I heard you're having trouble with the resurrection" and then went on to tell me that Jesus' body was stolen. My teacher thought I was disrupting the class because I would not accept that Jesus was just "present" to the disciples the way his friend who died was "present" to him. A bunch of my classmates decided they no longer wanted to be Christians after the class. On our test one of the questions was to explain the resurrection and he tried to make us write his "version" of it and in the teacher conference blamed me for people putting the "easier" answer. Then in our history class the teacher publicly made a show of removing the cross from the classroom. When a classmate expressed how her faith had been scared by the religion class the teacher laughed and said that Joseph and Mary "did it." She also often bragged during class how she lied about believing in God to get the job.

That's just a few of the joys of my liberal Catholic education and why I will never ever send my kids to Catholic school. I'd rather they be taught secularism than the cr*p I was taught.

[Friul]

Our Catholic schools are publically funded here, and they were nothing like that.

[Xpycoctomos]

John, have you read my big thread?

One thing that I now maintain is that it is VERY hard for people who are dependent on the system (parents who need a babysitter and staff who need paychecks) to accept that the system itself may be fatally flawed and in need of de-struction in favor of something else. As you pointed out, that includes you, as well. You have a strong incentive to discount what Aria and I are saying, and you will have it until you are no longer financially dependent on the system (I wasn't able to see this stuff until I left the country). I would think it very hard for anyone with those incentives to read through what I have posted there.

First of all I don't totally discount what you are saying. But, what I am saying is that in the end, it is up the parent to raise the child. If your kid goes to public school and comes out with no notion of absolute truth, that's your fault, Not Mrs Green's or Principal Smith's that your child came out so weak.

While I understand your hesitation to believe me, all I can do is say that I have no problem not sending my child to a public school. I have no problem saying that the PS system is diabolic in every way and terrible and that it would be better if we just got rid of it and changed our entire way of thinking about and approaching education in the US... if I whole heartedly believed that.

Look, in my small post, I readily admitted that I do not even know we will send OUR child to a Public School (even my public school where I teach). While I would not be as vociferous about it as others who are not financially dependant on the school system, I would without hesitation send my child to a different kind of school or make the sacrifice to homeschool in some way if I believed strongly enough in it. And I would gladly, and without guilt, recieve my check for my hard work at the Public Schools... evn if I don't fully believe in their mission - because I believe in my classroom. I have no fear in admitting that I work in a defunct system. I don't believe that it is totally defunct, personally, but the idea doesn't scare me (in regards to MY job and MY paying the bills and how much I enjoy MY classroom). But, I look at my kids and see that they are learning Spanish and French. How the kids are morally raised is up to the parents. If they pull their children from the school becuase they feel I do a poor job at tecaching them Foreign Languages, I will take issue with that. If they take their kids out for reasons you have mentioned about not believing in the system in general, I will take no offense to that (most teachers at my school would.. very true) and will only have more respect for them for standing up for what they believe in (because it is easier just to send your kid to the local public school and these parents chose not to take that route).

Rus, you can assume what you want about my allegiances and I understand your reasoning. But I'm not sure how you can with such confidence comment on my personal ability to act or opine in certain ways. Maybe it was difficult for you to do when you were a teacher (it speak as if you've taugh in the PSs of many states) either because you were embarrassed, afraid of backlash or felt a moral conviction not teach in a system you did not believe in. And while I don't take offense to your comment, because your opinion on me personally is based on a generalization (whereas I would take offense to a close friend saying it, and then would feel a need to examen myself more), I will take issue with it because for me, it is patently false from what I can tell about my own personal opinions (and I can say the same for several ps teachers I know personally... but that's anecdotal and even that certainly does not represent the majority).

So, I really take NO offense to the fact that so far Public Schools are barely second to Protestant Schools as to where TAWers would NOT consider sending their child (or maybe today it's first). I am certainly not a cheerleader for the Public School System even if I do believe in aspects of it. Many of the criticisms are warranted and I see the logic in many of the ones I don't even (yet) agree with.

The big misunderstanding I see in some posts here is the assumption that public schools can be truly different one from another. It is true that individuals can take some action allowing for some variety. However, the requirements that all must bow to across all of the United States are fairly uniform, both in terms of what the teachers are required to do (how they are formed) and in how the schools must implement district requirements, which come from the State requirements.

WHile I agree that the State does push for relativistic indoctrination through both their requirements and through what they forbid, you fail to notice that many of these schools (particularly small town schools) do what they like and break the rules all the time. I know of this personally. Sometimes I don't agree with this, sometimes I think it's great. The State has too much on its plate (or at least ours does since our government here is totally broken), they have no idea... nor do they really care.

John

[Xpycoctomos]

Oh, my where to begin? What part do you want to know about?

The pluralism? Like how the school was less than 30% Catholic, encouraged non-Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Wiccan, etc prayers during the services? Or how they encouraged everyone to take part in consecrating the Eucharist, had liturgical dance and let non-Catholics and even non-Christians receive the Eucharist. How when the priest was late one of the female teachers began offering the Mass.

The secularism? How they taught there's no truth. How we can't judge anyone. How we can't really say that anyone is wrong or right because they are just acting on their morality. Classmates chimed in that we really can't judge Hilter because he was doing what was right based on his moral standpoint. To underline this point we read that story about all the blind people feeling the elephant and they each think it's something different but they are all right.

Or the theology we were taught? That nothing in the Bible actually happened. That Mary wasn't a virgin but virgin just meant "young girl" and that she wasn't sinless. That Jesus didn't actually rise from the dead but that it was an allegory. When I tried to argue with him about that I got in trouble and a few days later the other religion teacher saw me as I was walking in the next morning and cornered me and told me "I heard you're having trouble with the resurrection" and then went on to tell me that Jesus' body was stolen. My teacher thought I was disrupting the class because I would not accept that Jesus was just "present" to the disciples the way his friend who died was "present" to him. A bunch of my classmates decided they no longer wanted to be Christians after the class. On our test one of the questions was to explain the resurrection and he tried to make us write his "version" of it and in the teacher conference blamed me for people putting the "easier" answer. Then in our history class the teacher publicly made a show of removing the cross from the classroom. When a classmate expressed how her faith had been scared by the religion class the teacher laughed and said that Joseph and Mary "did it." She also often bragged during class how she lied about believing in God to get the job.

That's just a few of the joys of my liberal Catholic education and why I will never ever send my kids to Catholic school. I'd rather they be taught secularism than the cr*p I was taught.
Yeah, I don't understand this... while Zilahn's experience might be an extreme example, a lot of Catholic Schools are quite liberal or at least VERY weak on the whole "Catholic" thing. You get teachers who not only aren't Catholic... but aren't even Christian!

I think the problem is that they feel the need to keep up with the Jones'. This is actually my only hesitation in sending my kids to a Catholic School... that they aren't Catholic! lol So, I would have to do a lot of research before assuming anything. A number of OBOBers have commented on this in the past too.

I have to say that if I didn't feel my kids would be made to feel like less than a Christian at my old Lutheran School, I would send them there. It is very conservative and God-centered and the teachers there are very good at what they do. They all really do see it as a ministry (which is why they all get paid TONS less than I do, even after teaching 30 years, and for a heck of a lot more work).

Xpy

[Komnenos]

Protestant School. Urgh, just the thought frightens me.
My children, when I have them :D will be going to an Orthodox school.

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9624/merekfener5ok.jpg

[Xpycoctomos]

Wow, is that in constantinople or in Greece. I thought I remembered you were heading to move you (and your family?) to Greece. Maybe I am imagining this.

[zhilan]

I think my top choice (other than an Orthodox school number one or a conservative/traditional Catholic / Anglican school all of which are few and far between) would be a secular private school.

[Philothei]

You forgot to put up private orhtodox school... that is what I would chose and i have the choice right now. My daughter attends one...lucky us. :)

God bless,
Philothei

[Philothei]

sorry now I noticed it said you "would not send" ... okay then.

God bless,
Philothei

[ladybug1980]

Are Orthodox schools few and far between? I seem to only notice Catholic or Public schools around here.

[Xpycoctomos]

Are Orthodox schools few and far between? I seem to only notice Catholic or Public schools around here.
Few and far between. My guess is that apart from daycares or kindergartens, k-8 or k-12 Orthodox schools in the US (at least) could probalby be counted on one hand... maybe two?

But I don't know that. Anyone know of a list of them?

John

[ladybug1980]

Few and far between. My guess is that apart from daycares or kindergartens, k-8 or k-12 Orthodox schools in the US (at least) could probalby be counted on one hand... maybe two?

But I don't know that. Anyone know of a list of them?

John
That's a pity, but in a way I am not entirely surprised. :scratch:A list would be cool.

[Komnenos]

Wow, is that in constantinople or in Greece. I thought I remembered you were heading to move you (and your family?) to Greece. Maybe I am imagining this.
Moving to Greece? No. Yes it is in Istanbul (Constantinople)

[Philothei]

Yes they are very few indeed... Ours goes up to the 8th grade...then we shalll see what we willl do with high school.... for now we are happy to have this luxury :)

Starting the day with prayer is what does it for me. I grew up like this and Saturday liturgy and I think that it was very important.

Most Orthodox schools start with Pre-K and K and then they add on if they have vision. Yes they are few but the ones I know they are going strong.

God bless,
Philothei

[Xpycoctomos]

Yes they are very few indeed... Ours goes up to the 8th grade...then we shalll see what we willl do with high school.... for now we are happy to have this luxury :)

Starting the day with prayer is what does it for me. I grew up like this and Saturday liturgy and I think that it was very important.

Most Orthodox schools start with Pre-K and K and then they add on if they have vision. Yes they are few but the ones I know they are going strong.

God bless,
Philothei
That's great!

[rusmeister]

First of all I don't totally discount what you are saying. But, what I am saying is that in the end, it is up the parent to raise the child. If your kid goes to public school and comes out with no notion of absolute truth, that's your fault, Not Mrs Green's or Principal Smith's that your child came out so weak.

While I understand your hesitation to believe me, all I can do is say that I have no problem not sending my child to a public school. I have no problem saying that the PS system is diabolic in every way and terrible and that it would be better if we just got rid of it and changed our entire way of thinking about and approaching education in the US... if I whole heartedly believed that.

Look, in my small post, I readily admitted that I do not even know we will send OUR child to a Public School (even my public school where I teach). While I would not be as vociferous about it as others who are not financially dependant on the school system, I would without hesitation send my child to a different kind of school or make the sacrifice to homeschool in some way if I believed strongly enough in it. And I would gladly, and without guilt, recieve my check for my hard work at the Public Schools... evn if I don't fully believe in their mission - because I believe in my classroom. I have no fear in admitting that I work in a defunct system. I don't believe that it is totally defunct, personally, but the idea doesn't scare me (in regards to MY job and MY paying the bills and how much I enjoy MY classroom). But, I look at my kids and see that they are learning Spanish and French. How the kids are morally raised is up to the parents. If they pull their children from the school becuase they feel I do a poor job at tecaching them Foreign Languages, I will take issue with that. If they take their kids out for reasons you have mentioned about not believing in the system in general, I will take no offense to that (most teachers at my school would.. very true) and will only have more respect for them for standing up for what they believe in (because it is easier just to send your kid to the local public school and these parents chose not to take that route).

Rus, you can assume what you want about my allegiances and I understand your reasoning. But I'm not sure how you can with such confidence comment on my personal ability to act or opine in certain ways. Maybe it was difficult for you to do when you were a teacher (it speak as if you've taugh in the PSs of many states) either because you were embarrassed, afraid of backlash or felt a moral conviction not teach in a system you did not believe in. And while I don't take offense to your comment, because your opinion on me personally is based on a generalization (whereas I would take offense to a close friend saying it, and then would feel a need to examen myself more), I will take issue with it because for me, it is patently false from what I can tell about my own personal opinions (and I can say the same for several ps teachers I know personally... but that's anecdotal and even that certainly does not represent the majority).

So, I really take NO offense to the fact that so far Public Schools are barely second to Protestant Schools as to where TAWers would NOT consider sending their child (or maybe today it's first). I am certainly not a cheerleader for the Public School System even if I do believe in aspects of it. Many of the criticisms are warranted and I see the logic in many of the ones I don't even (yet) agree with.



WHile I agree that the State does push for relativistic indoctrination through both their requirements and through what they forbid, you fail to notice that many of these schools (particularly small town schools) do what they like and break the rules all the time. I know of this personally. Sometimes I don't agree with this, sometimes I think it's great. The State has too much on its plate (or at least ours does since our government here is totally broken), they have no idea... nor do they really care.

John

Please understand, John, I am not making personal comments at all. When I say you, I mean this in the extremely broad sense of anyone in your position and I am in no way trying to pretend that I can read your mind or have a full and deep understanding of what you personally know.

Simply put, if I am wrong, then I am either a whack job or at least someone who had a really bad experience and is applying it universally.

If I am right, then you really wouldn't be aware that you have been indoctrinated throughout your life to see the existing situation as normal and would be naturally disposed to reject my position out-of-hand.

I am aware that even public school teachers largely cannot see what I have been saying, and have tried to lay out some of the reasons for this. However, if you acknowledge that you have some insight which may be more valuable than that of the average parent in what it has permitted you to learn from inside the system, then you would have to acknowledge the possibility of greater insight existing elsewhere.

In my professional field, however, I have found that most consider their own experience to be as equally valuable as anyone else's. I can even agree to a fair extent as regards the understanding of what education actually is. However, I have to insist that in understanding what is actually being done in public schools, people who work professionally have a great advantage over parents, just as police and health professionals (for example) have a better understanding of what is actually happening in their spheres. What I have seen in discussions of public schooling, more than anywhere else than in religion itself, has been an incredible tendency for people to ignore each other and hold their own experience as supreme, thus making learning outside of one's own experience impossible and merely resulting in a cacaphony of opinion (see my old education thread as an example of this).

For most of my life I thought as you do, or at least would have found myself agreeing with a lot more that you have to say than I do now. What I've been saying is that I had to:

a) have schooling that combined public with private, the latter of which deprogrammed my passivity in my own education process

b) entering college at an age sufficiently older than others to avoid the typical paths

c) be nearly totally isolated from public media for roughly 15 years as an adult

d) gain experience as a teacher in the private sector overseas with no formal training

e) to go through teacher training with 6,000+ hrs of prior classroom exp.

f) work in public and private schools on both coasts

g) finally, leave my dependence on public schools altogether.


If you saw "The Sixth Sense" with Bruce Willis, you'll remember how throughout the picture we had one understanding of the significance of everything which was completely twisted around by the revelation at the end of the film. Something similar happened to me.

It is really hard to imagine how else I could have seen such unacceptable and shocking truths. I fully understand your rejection of my thesis. I simply have the temerity to insist that in this one issue, I have been given to see more than most and that the truth is stranger than the fiction that public schools are really doing our children good.

[rusmeister]

FTR, I was raised Baptist and my high school was a Baptist one.

It was due to my Baptist upbringing and my mother's efforts to have me seeking God ("Bring up a child in the way that he should go, and when he is (38 years) old, he will not depart from it.") that led me back to Christianity, and not the Baptists.

Being Protestant is much less desirable than being Orthodox, but it is better to be seeking and striving to please God than not, and better to be Protestant than agnostic. My thesis is that public schooling has a much greater tendency to result in agnosticism, or at the very least an acceptance of plurality of views and not to take religious views too seriously, while a Christian-schooled person will more likely be strongly for or strongly against faith, because they have been taught to believe in something (the latter with a greater possibility of returning to faith as a result, as happened with me). From that standpoint public schooling becomes enemy number one.

[Xpycoctomos]

Please understand, John, I am not making personal comments at all. When I say you, I mean this in the extremely broad sense of anyone in your position and I am in no way trying to pretend that I can read your mind or have a full and deep understanding of what you personally know.

Simply put, if I am wrong, then I am either a whack job or at least someone who had a really bad experience and is applying it universally.

If I am right, then you really wouldn't be aware that you have been indoctrinated throughout your life to see the existing situation as normal and would be naturally disposed to reject my position out-of-hand.

I am aware that even public school teachers largely cannot see what I have been saying, and have tried to lay out some of the reasons for this. However, if you acknowledge that you have some insight which may be more valuable than that of the average parent in what it has permitted you to learn from inside the system, then you would have to acknowledge the possibility of greater insight existing elsewhere.

In my professional field, however, I have found that most consider their own experience to be as equally valuable as anyone else's. I can even agree to a fair extent as regards the understanding of what education actually is. However, I have to insist that in understanding what is actually being done in public schools, people who work professionally have a great advantage over parents, just as police and health professionals (for example) have a better understanding of what is actually happening in their spheres. What I have seen in discussions of public schooling, more than anywhere else than in religion itself, has been an incredible tendency for people to ignore each other and hold their own experience as supreme, thus making learning outside of one's own experience impossible and merely resulting in a cacaphony of opinion (see my old education thread as an example of this).

For most of my life I thought as you do, or at least would have found myself agreeing with a lot more that you have to say than I do now. What I've been saying is that I had to:

a) have schooling that combined public with private, the latter of which deprogrammed my passivity in my own education process

b) entering college at an age sufficiently older than others to avoid the typical paths

c) be nearly totally isolated from public media for roughly 15 years as an adult

d) gain experience as a teacher in the private sector overseas with no formal training

e) to go through teacher training with 6,000+ hrs of prior classroom exp.

f) work in public and private schools on both coasts

g) finally, leave my dependence on public schools altogether.


If you saw "The Sixth Sense" with Bruce Willis, you'll remember how throughout the picture we had one understanding of the significance of everything which was completely twisted around by the revelation at the end of the film. Something similar happened to me.

It is really hard to imagine how else I could have seen such unacceptable and shocking truths. I fully understand your rejection of my thesis. I simply have the temerity to insist that in this one issue, I have been given to see more than most and that the truth is stranger than the fiction that public schools are really doing our children good.
Sorry, I didn't mean to NOT respond. I suppose I've just said everything I can and the post here that I'm quoting certainly helped me understand where you're coming from and your intentions.

God bless,

Xpy