Mystery, Hidden Manna, Spiritual Revelation

[Ben12]

So many of God’s people cannot see what is beyond the letter that killeth; such a strong word “killeth” given to describe what happens when you use you carnalize, literalize your understanding when interpreting scripture. So much doom and gloom in Traditional Christianity;

Are we destroying, slaying, and killing God’s Word when we refuse to allow God’s Spirit to give it life.

Is not the spirit of truth with in us; but is that what we are following when all we see is the negative. God’s Spirit is in all of us, we have gone way to accustom to hearing man; and not The Spirit of truth with in.

Killeth: NT:615 apokteino (ap-ok-ti'-no); from NT:575 and kteino (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:

2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory

[Zecryphon]

So many of God’s people cannot see what is beyond the letter that killeth; such a strong word “killeth” given to describe what happens when you use you carnalize, literalize your understanding when interpreting scripture. So much doom and gloom in Traditional Christianity;

Are we destroying, slaying, and killing God’s Word when we refuse to allow God’s Spirit to give it life.

Is not the spirit of truth with in us; but is that what we are following when all we see is the negative. God’s Spirit is in all of us, we have gone way to accustom to hearing man; and not The Spirit of truth with in.

Killeth: NT:615 apokteino (ap-ok-ti'-no); from NT:575 and kteino (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:

2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory




Hey Ben! How many threads are you gonna start to keep yourself busy so you don't have to participate in the debate thread that's been set up for you in TCL about Univeralism?

I made the challenge to you in the Arrrgh! thread in post # 55, and you said you would love to debate the idea of universalism with the Lutherans, but couldn't because you thought it was a violation of forum rules, in post # 57.

Here is my challenge to you from post # 55 of the Arggghh! thread to bring the Universalism debate to TCL:

"But if you feel up to it go to the Lutheran forums and tell them you have started a debate thread in the appropriate section of this forum to debate this topic and you'd reallly love to hear the Lutheran viewpoint on this."

Here is your response to said challenge:

"I love to but I belive it is against FORUM rules to cross over to denomational forums with the teaching of Jesus blood being greater then the sin of Adam."

Actually, it's not against forum rules for you to debate in TCL. So what's the hold up?

[Ben12]

Hey Ben! How many threads are you gonna start to keep yourself busy so you don't have to participate in the debate thread that's been set up for you in TCL about Univeralism?

I made the challenge to you in the Arrrgh! thread in post # 55, and you said you would love to debate the idea of universalism with the Lutherans, but couldn't because you thought it was a violation of forum rules, in post # 57.

Here is my challenge to you from post # 55 of the Arggghh! thread to bring the Universalism debate to TCL:

"But if you feel up to it go to the Lutheran forums and tell them you have started a debate thread in the appropriate section of this forum to debate this topic and you'd reallly love to hear the Lutheran viewpoint on this."

Here is your response to said challenge:

"I love to but I belive it is against FORUM rules to cross over to denomational forums with the teaching of Jesus blood being greater then the sin of Adam."

Actually, it's not against forum rules for you to debate in TCL. So what's the hold up?
And how is it up to you where I decide to debate?

[Zecryphon]

And how is it up to you where I decide to debate?
I'm not saying it's up to me. I'm letting you know that I have made it possible for you to do what you said you wanted to do. If you're not gonna do what you said you would, let me know so I can have the thread shut down. I should have known you'd never actually do it, if the opportunity ever presented itself. See ya around Ben.

[Ben12]

I'm not saying it's up to me. I'm letting you know that I have made it possible for you to do what you said you wanted to do. If you're not gonna do what you said you would, let me know so I can have the thread shut down. I should have known you'd never actually do it, if the opportunity ever presented itself. See ya around Ben.
Even Nadiine I have seen some spiritual insite; you have no earthy idea let alone spiritual idea of the deep things of God. No I have no desire to debate God's Word in such a site.

[Zecryphon]

Even Nadiine I have seen some spiritual insite; you have no earthy idea let alone spiritual idea of the deep things of God. No I have no desire to debate God's Word in such a site.
"Even Nadiine I have seen some spiritual insite; you have no earthy idea let alone spiritual idea of the deep things of God."

Even Nadiine? Is it possible for you to respond to me without flaming or having a tone of condescension?

"No I have no desire to debate God's Word in such a site."

Such a site? I fail to see how you can refer to an entire forum, that you've yet to set foot in as "such a site". Statements such as this one and the one you've made up above are very revealing about your general demeanor. Perhaps you need to reflect upon them and what they say about you to the world. Perhaps you can pray about your attitude towards Christians who disagree with you. You may not like me and I think that's obvious to anyone who's read an exchange between us, but you could at least be civil. I didn't have to do any of this. I didn't have to set up a thread for you to debate Universalism in, but I did so, because you said you wanted to, and I thought it would be a nice thing to do for you.

Just out of curiosity, why did you say you wanted to debate this in the Lutheran forum, if you had no desire to do so? I find that very odd.

Now since you probably haven't even gone to the TCL forum and looked at the thread that's been set up for you by me, let me fill you in on something, I am not participating in this debate. It was supposed to be you and the rest of the Lutheran forum. I knew you'd try and wriggle out of this by using me and my supposed lack of spiritual understanding as an excuse. As we've all seen, this is exactly what you did do. So I've removed myself from the scenario. It's just you, the Lutherans and the truth of the scriptures. I'd love to see this happen, but we can't have a debate on Universalism without a Christian Universalist. Now, are you going to participate in this debate or not?

[Ben12]

:sleep: "Even Nadiine I have seen some spiritual insite; you have no earthy idea let alone spiritual idea of the deep things of God."

Even Nadiine? Is it possible for you to respond to me without flaming or having a tone of condescension?

"No I have no desire to debate God's Word in such a site."

Such a site? I fail to see how you can refer to an entire forum, that you've yet to set foot in as "such a site". Statements such as this one and the one you've made up above are very revealing about your general demeanor. Perhaps you need to reflect upon them and what they say about you to the world. Perhaps you can pray about your attitude towards Christians who disagree with you. You may not like me and I think that's obvious to anyone who's read an exchange between us, but you could at least be civil. I didn't have to do any of this. I didn't have to set up a thread for you to debate Universalism in, but I did so, because you said you wanted to, and I thought it would be a nice thing to do for you.

Just out of curiosity, why did you say you wanted to debate this in the Lutheran forum, if you had no desire to do so? I find that very odd.

Now since you probably haven't even gone to the TCL forum and looked at the thread that's been set up for you by me, let me fill you in on something, I am not participating in this debate. It was supposed to be you and the rest of the Lutheran forum. I knew you'd try and wriggle out of this by using me and my supposed lack of spiritual understanding as an excuse. As we've all seen, this is exactly what you did do. So I've removed myself from the scenario. It's just you, the Lutherans and the truth of the scriptures. I'd love to see this happen, but we can't have a debate on Universalism without a Christian Universalist. Now, are you going to participate in this debate or not?
I knew this was a farse; I went to the Lutheran thread as you requested and they choked. So much for your Lutheran religion. I have been reported to the staff; amazing how you Lutherans invite someone and then kick them off your thread just proves to me how shallow a religion you are. I left.

You overly pushed me to go there and debate; I really did not want to. Shallow

[Zecryphon]

:sleep:
I knew this was a farse; I went to the Lutheran thread as you requested and they choked. So much for your Lutheran religion. I have been reported to the staff; amazing how you Lutherans invite someone and then kick them off your thread just proves to me how shallow a religion you are. I left.

You overly pushed me to go there and debate; I really did not want to. Shallow
"I knew this was a farse; I went to the Lutheran thread as you requested and they choked."

Hardly. You were all over the place with your posts. You never once offered up a defense for universalism which was the purpose of the thread. I don't know how you could have missed that. The name of the thread was/is: Universalist Debate Thread. Oh I know what happened! You didn't take that literally but tried instead to look for some deeper spiritual meaning from God and missed what was sitting right in front of your face! LOL Typical Ben.

"So much for your Lutheran religion. I have been reported to the staff; amazing how you Lutherans invite someone and then kick them off your thread just proves to me how shallow a religion you are. I left."

Yeah you left after you got your spiritual butt kicked all over the forum! LOL What did you do to get reported Ben? I haven't been there yet today, but I'm gonna guess that you probably flamed either a poster or the entire forum. Flaming, while it is your trademark, is a violation of the forum rules in all forums. Plus I have a pretty good feeling that you reported a post of mine to you not all that long ago, so it's knida hypocritical for you to complain about being reported by others for what you write. Oooh, big deal you got reported. What's the worst that's gonna happen? The mods will ask for an edit of your post. Oh the horror! LOL

"You overly pushed me to go there and debate; I really did not want to. Shallow"

That sir, is a lie. You said in this very forum that you would love to debate the Lutherans, I have posted that statement by you for all to see. I didn't push you into anything, I just held you to your word. In fact, what's really interesting is that you didn't even set foot in that forum or thread until I told you I would not be participating. LOL You never established any rules for the debate. You never stated what your position on Universalism was or what aspect of it you were going to prove or defend. A premise is usually stated in a debate. You didn't do that. You didn't go to the thread and defend universalism either, no you went to the thread and were immediately off on tangents that didn't go anywhere. The Lutherans didn't even break a sweat in refuting yoru posts. You were done in less than a page. Hardly a good showing. I'd love to say universalism has been refuted but I can't because YOU never discussed it. You dropped the ball from the get go, and you want to blame me? A person who didn't even participate in the thread? How does that work? What's really sad about you and people like you is that you can't even take responsibility for your own mistakes. Nothing is ever your fault is it? I'll bet that you believe that the report on you is false right, you didn't do anything that is against forum rules, right? Everyone is just out to "get you" because you are considered a Christian Universalist, right?

[Ben12]

"I knew this was a farse; I went to the Lutheran thread as you requested and they choked."

Hardly. You were all over the place with your posts. You never once offered up a defense for universalism which was the purpose of the thread. I don't know how you could have missed that. The name of the thread was/is: Universalist Debate Thread. Oh I know what happened! You didn't take that literally but tried instead to look for some deeper spiritual meaning from God and missed what was sitting right in front of your face! LOL Typical Ben.

"So much for your Lutheran religion. I have been reported to the staff; amazing how you Lutherans invite someone and then kick them off your thread just proves to me how shallow a religion you are. I left."

Yeah you left after you got your spiritual butt kicked all over the forum! LOL What did you do to get reported Ben? I haven't been there yet today, but I'm gonna guess that you probably flamed either a poster or the entire forum. Flaming, while it is your trademark, is a violation of the forum rules in all forums. Plus I have a pretty good feeling that you reported a post of mine to you not all that long ago, so it's knida hypocritical for you to complain about being reported by others for what you write. Oooh, big deal you got reported. What's the worst that's gonna happen? The mods will ask for an edit of your post. Oh the horror! LOL

"You overly pushed me to go there and debate; I really did not want to. Shallow"

That sir, is a lie. You said in this very forum that you would love to debate the Lutherans, I have posted that statement by you for all to see. I didn't push you into anything, I just held you to your word. In fact, what's really interesting is that you didn't even set foot in that forum or thread until I told you I would not be participating. LOL You never established any rules for the debate. You never stated what your position on Universalism was or what aspect of it you were going to prove or defend. A premise is usually stated in a debate. You didn't do that. You didn't go to the thread and defend universalism either, no you went to the thread and were immediately off on tangents that didn't go anywhere. The Lutherans didn't even break a sweat in refuting yoru posts. You were done in less than a page. Hardly a good showing. I'd love to say universalism has been refuted but I can't because YOU never discussed it. You dropped the ball from the get go, and you want to blame me? A person who didn't even participate in the thread? How does that work? What's really sad about you and people like you is that you can't even take responsibility for your own mistakes. Nothing is ever your fault is it? I'll bet that you believe that the report on you is false right, you didn't do anything that is against forum rules, right? Everyone is just out to "get you" because you are considered a Christian Universalist, right?
Shallow

[Zecryphon]

Shallow
Ah, nothing but flames I see. See ya Ben. Ya had your chance and you blew it. You may now return to whatever the point of this thread of yours was. You're not gonna drag me into another flame war. I'm done with that nonsense.

PS

I've gone to the Ecumenical Reports thread and read the post that got reported. From what I skimmed I don't see how the post that got reported is a violation. As far as I can tell you've done nothing wrong. You haven't violated forum rules as far as I can tell. When I have more time I"ll read the whole post beginning to end. I apologize for my false assumptions about you and your actions and what lead to that report being filed on you. I'm sorry. I think what's happened is that there are some Lutherans who don't like the idea of a debate on Universalism in the TCL forum, because it contradicts scripture and Lutheran teachings. But just because someone doesn't like the topic of a thread or a post, doesn't mean that said thread or post is a violation of the forum rules.

[MoNiCa4316]

So much doom and gloom in Traditional Christianity;
Are we destroying, slaying, and killing God’s Word when we refuse to allow God’s Spirit to give it life.



When you say 'traditional Christianity', do you mean Christianity as is practiced in traditional (Catholic, Orthodox, etc) churches, or theologically conservative,. Nicene Christianity? :confused: I'll assume the former, please correct me if you meant something else.

While I agree that the only way to properly understand Scripture is by the Holy Spirit, I do not understand the whole view that 'Traditional Christianity' has missed the mark and created a dead, carnal interpretation. This is coming from someone who does not go to a 'traditional' church and who is fairly evangelical Protestant and charismatic in theology.

All followers of Christ have the Holy Spirit. We make a mistake when we assume that members of certain churches are more 'in tune' with it than others. I see this all the time on these forums and it's sad. Some are saying that they're the True Church and no one else can properly understand Scripture. Some are saying that their denomination is somehow more 'connected' to the Spirit and others follow dead, stagnant literalism. The Spirit goes whereever He wishes. Traditional Christians have things to teach us, and if we listen we might benefit in our understanding....and I hope that we also have some good points we can share with others. The last thing we should do is judge someone based on their church affiliation. God sees everyone's hearts, and although we can not hope to do that, we can at least give people a chance. Just reading this thread has been a discouraging sort of experience...doubtlessly the devil wants to tear us apart, but shouldn't we, Christians, be striving for love and unity? Don't want to sound preachy or arrogant, I'm not perfect at this myself. But it's something that I felt God laying on my heart recently and I thought maybe I should share it. :) Who are we to judge who is spiritual and who isn't? Only God knows. Someone might disagree with our views but that doesn't mean that they don't understand spiritual things.

That being said, I totally agree with everything else you wrote in your first post, and 2 Cor. 3 is one of my favourite passages from Scripture. :)

God bless.


"let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds." :)

[Ben12]

When you say 'traditional Christianity', do you mean Christianity as is practiced in traditional (Catholic, Orthodox, etc) churches, or theologically conservative,. Nicene Christianity? :confused: I'll assume the former, please correct me if you meant something else.

While I agree that the only way to properly understand Scripture is by the Holy Spirit, I do not understand the whole view that 'Traditional Christianity' has missed the mark and created a dead, carnal interpretation. This is coming from someone who does not go to a 'traditional' church and who is fairly evangelical Protestant and charismatic in theology.

All followers of Christ have the Holy Spirit. We make a mistake when we assume that members of certain churches are more 'in tune' with it than others. I see this all the time on these forums and it's sad. Some are saying that they're the True Church and no one else can properly understand Scripture. Some are saying that their denomination is somehow more 'connected' to the Spirit and others follow dead, stagnant literalism. The Spirit goes whereever He wishes. Traditional Christians have things to teach us, and if we listen we might benefit in our understanding....and I hope that we also have some good points we can share with others. The last thing we should do is judge someone based on their church affiliation. God sees everyone's hearts, and although we can not hope to do that, we can at least give people a chance. Just reading this thread has been a discouraging sort of experience...doubtlessly the devil wants to tear us apart, but shouldn't we, Christians, be striving for love and unity? Don't want to sound preachy or arrogant, I'm not perfect at this myself. But it's something that I felt God laying on my heart recently and I thought maybe I should share it. :) Who are we to judge who is spiritual and who isn't? Only God knows. Someone might disagree with our views but that doesn't mean that they don't understand spiritual things.

That being said, I totally agree with everything else you wrote in your first post, and 2 Cor. 3 is one of my favourite passages from Scripture. :)

God bless.
Look I have to go to work; i will adress this later when I return.

[Ben12]

Forgive me truth is always hash and requires over whelming thought; but God's mercy always goes hand and hand with His truth.

I love how God loves us; and yes we should love each other; but flesh is flesh; spirit is spirit.

Romans 8: 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

God has two words, the literal, carnal or religious OR/totally opposite/other side the coin; the spiritual; these two words are at total odds to each other; the flesh will never except the spiritual understanding. Spiritual understanding has enmity against carnal reasoning. The Carnal mind is death; totally contrary to God’s Spiritual Word. The carnal mind can only handle the letter that killeth; the milk for babes

Romans 8:5-8 (MSG) Those who think they can do it on their own end up obsessed with measuring their own moral muscle but never get around to exercising it in real life. Those who trust God's action in them find that God's Spirit is in them—living and breathing God! Obsession with self in these matters is a dead end; attention to God leads us out into the open, into a spacious, free life. Focusing on the self is the opposite of focusing on God. Anyone completely absorbed in self ignores God, ends up thinking more about self than God. That person ignores who God is and what he is doing. And God isn't pleased at being ignored.

Romans 8:6 (HCSB) 6 For the mind-set of the flesh (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:6-7;&version=73;65;15;77;53;#cen-WE-en-MSG-en-YLT-en-HCSB-28294Acen-WE-en-MSG-en-YLT-en-HCSB-28294A)) is death, (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:6-7;&version=73;65;15;77;53;#cen-WE-en-MSG-en-YLT-en-HCSB-28294Bcen-WE-en-MSG-en-YLT-en-HCSB-28294B)) but the mind-set of the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind-set of the flesh is hostile (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:6-7;&version=73;65;15;77;53;#cen-WE-en-MSG-en-YLT-en-HCSB-28295Ccen-WE-en-MSG-en-YLT-en-HCSB-28295C)) to God because it does not submit itself to God's law, for it is unable to do so.
Romans 8:6 (WYC) For the prudence of flesh is death; but the prudence of Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the wisdom of the flesh is enemy to God; for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither it may [soothly neither it may be subject to the law].

I am not going against any sect, system or denomination; but instead all of them; they are all Baby lon. They hear their priest, pope or preacher; and the last thing they will ever do is HEAR God’s Spirit with in. What is so bad in judging the church is carnal; when it is. I put no faith in the religious realm which is commonly known as the church; there is a far more perfect Church and that is the Christ with in us. God know who is spiritual; and let me tell you I see a lot more carnal; then spiritual. There is a true famine in the land; and God’s people eat religious food; not spiritual. God is in complete control of all things; including the carnal Church. Look at the seven Churches in Revelations; those churches describe all the churches; then and now.

You want spiritual; touch God’s glory now; that is what is all about. I am not here to please you or anyone else; what I am here is to show you the Father. So guess what all of our preconceived beliefs should become nothing but wood hay and stubble.

Mount Zion a rock of offense a stone of stumbling; the high place of God are an offense to the flesh; that especially includes religious flesh.

[MoNiCa4316]

Ben, well of course there are people who make a god out of their religion; like the Pharisees did. But what if a person is truly spiritual and knows God, and they decide to be a pastor? I'm sure there are many of those...would you still say that this person is leading people to 'carnal religion' and not the truth? God speaks to us directly, but I believe He also uses others for this purpose...He wants us all to be united and connected...if a pastor preaches the truth, wouldn't it help the people become more spiritual, not less? Hope this makes sense.

:)

[bill16652]

Ben, well of course there are people who make a god out of their religion; like the Pharisees did. But what if a person is truly spiritual and knows God, and they decide to be a pastor? I'm sure there are many of those...wouldn't his church be a part of Christ's Church then?

:)He would be a part of Christs church. Whether others in the church are or not is up to them. Christs church is comprised of people that are connected to God. That have an intimate relationship with Him. There are many references in the bible to a bride, a wedding, etc. This is not by accident. Think of how a bride wants to be with her groom all the time, wants to please him, to know all there is to know about hi,m. This is the relationship that Christ desires. Just because tyhe preacher has this will not save anyone else. His preaching may help but it is still up to us what we do and believe.

[MoNiCa4316]

He would be a part of Christs church. Whether others in the church are or not is up to them. Christs church is comprised of people that are connected to God. That have an intimate relationship with Him. There are many references in the bible to a bride, a wedding, etc. This is not by accident. Think of how a bride wants to be with her groom all the time, wants to please him, to know all there is to know about hi,m. This is the relationship that Christ desires. Just because tyhe preacher has this will not save anyone else. His preaching may help but it is still up to us what we do and believe.

I agree with you :) I phrased my question incorrectly :doh: But yes, Christ's church is His people.
God bless.

[Ben12]

Ben, well of course there are people who make a god out of their religion; like the Pharisees did. But what if a person is truly spiritual and knows God, and they decide to be a pastor? I'm sure there are many of those...would you still say that this person is leading people to 'carnal religion' and not the truth? God speaks to us directly, but I believe He also uses others for this purpose...He wants us all to be united and connected...if a pastor preaches the truth, wouldn't it help the people become more spiritual, not less? Hope this makes sense.

:)
Sorry I have been busy

There was no man in the New Testament church who ever occupied a position called "the pastor." Not one church raised up by the twelve apostles or by Paul had any such ministry as "the pastor." Oh, yes, there were "pastors" plural (Eph. 4:11), but no single minister of God in the New Testament was ever elevated to the position of "the pastor" of an assembly. The truth is that in every case in the Greek New Testament where the word for pastor (POIMEN) appears in the singular accompanied by the definite article, it is used in reference solely to our Lord Jesus Christ. He alone is T-H-E P-A-S-T-O-R of the flock, T-H-E S-H-E-P-H-E-R-D of the sheep! The sweet singer of Israel stated it so aptly in his lovely Psalm when he sang out under the spirit of inspiration, "The L-O-R-D is my SHEPHERD (pastor)!" Can we not see by this that any man who takes to himself this title "THE PASTOR," thereby usurps the place and headship of our precious Lord. I instructed the brethren among whom I labored in years past that they should never call me "the pastor" or "their pastor" because the Lord alone I-S THE PASTOR. I may be "a pastor," but never "the pastor." The saints were taught that if any one came inquiring after "the pastor" they should be told that the pastor is the Lord. If they were asked, "Who is the pastor here?" they should reply, "The Lord is the pastor here." They could then explain that Bro. Eby is one of the servants, an under-shepherd, along with elders and ministries; but THE LORD IS T-H-E P-A-S-T-O-R.

What God wants more then anything is we have ears to hear; to grow and mature to a point where the only voice you will follow is the true Shepherd with in; my sheep (a sheep is mature, not like a lamb)know my voice.

[MoNiCa4316]

Ben, I don't see why it matters if there is one pastor or several...I've never met a pastor who put himself in Christ's position...the pastor of my church talks like he is a servant of Christ and not superior to any of us. It's just a name..I think every pastor realizes that he is not the Good Shepherd.

[JHM]

Bye Now