Vegetarianism

[AJB4]

Hey, me and JustinHesychast were on MSN yesterday, and we were talking about vegetarianism a bit. He was saying he used to be a vegan, but no longer was a veg of any sort.

I was just thinking, once I become Orthodox, there will be fasts. There are occasional times in the fasts when we eat (just very little). I have an idea - why not become a vegetarian during the fasts, but after the fasts, go back to meat-eating? I've been thinking about it. The health benefits of being a veg are quite good I hear. Even if you were just a part time veg, it could be good still.

[All4Christ]

I don't know if this is right or wrong - but in order to honor the fasts, I have become a vegetarian - full time. You see - living at home with my parents has made fasting be EXTREMELY difficult....and - well....so far, the way I have found to be able to honor the fasts is by making it a constant thing, rather than every so often.

[AJB4]

I don't know if this is right or wrong - but in order to honor the fasts, I have become a vegetarian - full time. You see - living at home with my parents has made fasting be EXTREMELY difficult....and - well....so far, the way I have found to be able to honor the fasts is by making it a constant thing, rather than every so often.
Wow, great! I'm certainly giving it some thought.

[Friul]

With my ethnicities, I could never give up pork, beef, chicken, fish, lamb, etc full time. :P

During the fasts, I don't mind the no meat that much, now the no cheese, that is a struggle.

[All4Christ]

Oh yes - that's my one caveat - I still eat cheese at non-fast times :-) I couldn't give that up all the time.

[Cyprian31]

Our matushka (mother; priest's wife) asks our vegan parishioners : "how do you celebrate the feasts? Extra veggies?" Besides, I may be mistaken, but doesn't one of the Fathers forbid a non-meat diet? I'll check. :)

[zhilan]

Our matushka (mother; priest's wife) asks our vegan parishioners : "how do you celebrate the feasts? Extra veggies?" Besides, I may be mistaken, but doesn't one of the Fathers forbid a non-meat diet? I'll check. :)
I don't think it could be forbidden because monks are vegetarians.

[Slambo]

I'm seriously considering it myself for health reasons.

[MariaRegina]

I am a lacto-vegetarian, since I am allergic to eggs, beef, chicken, turkey, and pork. Add chocolate to that list, and my diet is very restricted, fast or no fasting.

And my doctor said it is more healthy to avoid the above foods. My priest agrees, although my previous SF was very upset.

I do eat salmon occasionally, just on feast days, maybe three times a year at the most, so it is certainly not a common item. So some people, who are strict vegans, tell me that I am not even a lacto-vegetarian. Oh well, doesn't bother me as I cannot eat their soy burgers either.

[Hoankan]

With my ethnicities, I could never give up pork, beef, chicken, fish, lamb, etc full time. :P

During the fasts, I don't mind the no meat that much, now the no cheese, that is a struggle.
Here here. Go back to my family saying I only eat vegitables and they'll ram a steak down my throat for even daring to think that. Plus in Japan meat is a constant problem when ever I am out with friends.

[AJB4]

I probably won't end up becoming one (except during fasts maybe).

[wynd]

I was just thinking, once I become Orthodox, there will be fasts. There are occasional times in the fasts when we eat (just very little). I have an idea - why not become a vegetarian during the fasts, but after the fasts, go back to meat-eating? I've been thinking about it. The health benefits of being a veg are quite good I hear. Even if you were just a part time veg, it could be good still.

Maybe I don't understand, but isn't this what you're supposed to do anyway?

[Michael the Iconographer]

I do not get what you are asking. During the fasts meat and dairy are forbidden, but shellfish is allowed. So with the exception of shellfish during the fasts Orthodox are vegetarian. However, during non-fasting time I am a carnivore extraordinaire! Nothing tastes better than a New York Strip on a fast-free friday!!! :P

[Zealous Zeth]

I have been a vegitarian since I was Eight years old. I have never liked meat anyway...

[Michael the Iconographer]

I have been a vegitarian since I was Eight years old. I have never liked meat anyway...
In way that is good because it means more steak, wings and ribs for me.

[Shubunkin]

While I certainly believe in cutting down on meat, I certainly won't cut them out entirely. Fasting is a way of cutting down. Being on a certain schedule helps me to do that. I really appreciate the fasting.

[Michael the Iconographer]

While I certainly believe in cutting down on meat, I certainly won't cut them out entirely. Fasting is a way of cutting down. Being on a certain schedule helps me to do that. I really appreciate the fasting.
What I appreciate most about fasting is just how good dairy and meat taste to me after the fast! J/K Fasting is good for your soul and helps remind you of what is truly important in your life, Christ.

[rusmeister]

Fasting is deeply personal, so we don't talk about it a lot, and it IS an "Ask your priest" issue, but I would say that wilful vegetarianism, while it may have a medical basis, does not have a moral one. G.K. Chesterton says some great things on that. If only my computer hadn't been destroyed, I could link you to them! (Solution - read more GKC!)

[JustinHesychast]

I would say that wilful vegetarianism, while it may have a medical basis, does not have a moral one.

Why do you say this? I have to completely disagree. Some of the greatest people of the world disagree.

"I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being."-Abraham Lincoln


"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth
as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."Albert Einstein


"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution.
Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages."-Thomas Edison


"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."-Mahatma Gandhi


"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals
as they now look on the murder of men."-Leonardo da Vinci


However, during non-fasting time I am a carnivore extraordinaire! Nothing tastes better than a New York Strip on a fast-free friday!!! :P

May taste good, but it's a one-way ticket to heart-disease and other such things.

[Kristos]

Fasting does not equal vegan.
Vegan does not equal fasting.

Completely different.

[nutroll]

May taste good, but it's a one-way ticket to heart-disease and other such things.

Aren't you the one who eats McDonald's food? Talk about a killer....

[JustinHesychast]

Ya. But Burger Kind > McDonald's. :P

I am slowly going vegetarian again though. No meat Mon. Wed. and Fri. And soon this will be full-time thing.

[Slambo]

If I go vegetarian, it won't have anything to do with morals or ethics, it will be to greatly reduce the fat in my diet and hence my arteries. I may allow myself to eat fat-free jerky but I can't say for sure since I'm one of those gimme an inch and I'll take a mile types. I'd probably be best to just go with a modified vegan diet and eliminate all dairy as well as other fatty stuff like nuts. I might ask Fr. Basil for his opinion next time he comes down for services since he's a cardiologist.

[JustinHesychast]

Please don't eliminate nuts. Eaten in moderation, and eating certain kinds, is ridiculously healthy for you! ^_^

[Nichole]

Ummmmm...........yeah...............Turkish pistacios are the BEST ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[zhilan]

While I don't have any moral issue with eating meat, I have found that since becoming Orthodox I've lost much of my taste for it. I always thought I really liked meat, but then after the first fast I just didn't miss it and it looked unappealing. Now dairy I really missed, but meat not so much. I thinking eating habits are just that, habits like anything else and when you get out of the habit your tastes just sort of adapt.

[zhilan]

BTW, sometimes it seems from what some people have said that they are -against- being a vegetarian. Why is that? I mean, I don't think there is any moral problem with eating meat, but I don't see why there is any problem with not eating it either.

[MamaBug]

BTW, sometimes it seems from what some people have said that they are -against- being a vegetarian. Why is that? I mean, I don't think there is any moral problem with eating meat, but I don't see why there is any problem with not eating it either.
Interesting question. Personally, I do have some issues with the notion of 'vegetarianism' since it seem to be more of a philosophy than an eating habit. It promotes the idea that eating meat is not a choice, but *wrong* because of the equality of all living creatures. That being said, I have no problem with non-philosophically based reasons for abstaining from meat and/or dairy products

[zhilan]

Interesting question. Personally, I do have some issues with the notion of 'vegetarianism' since it seem to be more of a philosophy than an eating habit. It promotes the idea that eating meat is not a choice, but *wrong* because of the equality of all living creatures. That being said, I have no problem with non-philosophically based reasons for abstaining from meat and/or dairy products

LOL. I agree with you. I do sometimes on occasion eat meat now but I went though a phase when I just couldn't stand meat, but when people would ask me I always had this long explanation about, "Well, I don't like meat, but I'm not a vegetarian on principle, so in theory I would eat meat and I really can't stand vegetarians and don't want to be one of "those" I just.....don't like meat." :P

My feeling is, I don't like it when people try to force their eating habits on me. If you only want to eat lettuce that's fine by me, I probably wont' invite you over to dinner too often, but if that's the way you rock, then more power to you, but don't try to impose that on me. As long as people aren't preachy about their dietary habits (and that goes for carnivores and vegans alike) I think people should be free to follow whatever diet floats their boat.

[JustinHesychast]

My SF said if/when I go veg again, that if I am invited to dinner, to let hospitality/gratefulness override my veganism/vegetarianism.

[MsDahl]

Maybe I don't understand, but isn't this what you're supposed to do anyway?

This is what I thought when I read the OP myself.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Why do you say this? I have to completely disagree. Some of the greatest people of the world disagree.

"I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being."-Abraham Lincoln


"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth
as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."Albert Einstein


"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution.
Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages."-Thomas Edison


"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."-Mahatma Gandhi


"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals
as they now look on the murder of men."-Leonardo da Vinci




May taste good, but it's a one-way ticket to heart-disease and other such things.
Somehow a lecture from you on morals is beyond me.

[rusmeister]

Why do you say this? I have to completely disagree. Some of the greatest people of the world disagree.

"I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being."-Abraham Lincoln


"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth
as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."Albert Einstein


"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution.
Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages."-Thomas Edison


"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."-Mahatma Gandhi


"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals
as they now look on the murder of men."-Leonardo da Vinci


Justin, it is important to try to recognize underlying assumptions behind your own thoughts, as well as behind those of others.

You say these people are great and I may be able to agree, but great at what? In what sense? When we come to the Faith, it turns out that these people, whom we are taught are great, are not really so great when it comes to the most important thing of all - what they believed. All of their thoughts must be measured against the Orthodox Faith, and when we do that, it turns out that thoughts based on wrong belief are wrong (mistaken) and not such great thoughts after all. The equality of animals with man is one such error into which many people, geniuses of philosophy, literature, art or what-have-you, have fallen into.

I earned an MA in Russian Literature, and I was taught that all of these writers were great. I've had to reassess my education and the extent to which I admire all of those writers. Tolstoy, for example, was a great writer, but ultimately he went to an extreme that went outside of Orthodoxy. I thought upon reading Bulgakov's "The Master and Margarita" in my mid-20's that it was a deeply Christian work (ah, naive agnosticism of youth!), but from a mature and Orthodox standpoint it clearly reflects a dualistic view that throws major doubt on Christ's divinity in creating a 'historical Jesus' who was pretty much just a man, while elevating the devil to a Milton-ish level of admirable nobility.

In any event, the point remains that the beliefs of many people we call great differ from and contradict each other, and Orthodoxy as well. They can't ALL be right. It is much more correct to say that they hold varying degrees of truth, and where they diverge from the truth, their thoughts will be wrong, and therefore not great.

If you take the 'great' thoughts you cited above to their logical conclusion, you will find that you have actually made it impossible for man to take steps or even breathe for fear of injuring some small of unseen living thing. You will certainly have passed judgement upon anyone who finds themself in a position where they must eat meat or starve.

[buzuxi02]

Why do you say this? I have to completely disagree. Some of the greatest people of the world disagree.

"I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being."-Abraham Lincoln


"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth
as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."Albert Einstein


"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution.
Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages."-Thomas Edison


"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."-Mahatma Gandhi


"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals
as they now look on the murder of men."-Leonardo da Vinci




Of all those quotes perhaps Thomas Edison is closest to the truth.

But this evolution is an evolution of Theosis.

Many great saints like on Athos not only abstained from eating meat but lived peacefully with wild animals. In the prescense of such sanctified men, the animals also are kind to one another.

Thru theosis these saints reversed the fallen nature of creation and have given us a glimpse of paradise, as scripture says, "The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox and dust shall be the serpent's food." Is 65.25.

We wont experience this in the fullest till the hereafter. For now man and the animals that he eats are part of the food chain.
The animals are cruel and mistreat each other as well, lions kill their prey and begin eating them before "bambi's heart even stops beating. They too will be kind to one another.
Of course all this is out of neccesity not out of malice.