Once Saved, Always Saved?

[PaladinGirl]

Hi everyone. Could you all please provide some Biblical support for the doctrine of once saved, always saved? Thanks.

[eldermike]

1 John 2:19 (New International Version)

New International Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=31) (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society (http://www.ibs.org/)
http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=22) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=10) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=26) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2)

19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us (once saved), they would have remained with us (Always saved); but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Clear for all to read, IMHO.

The real issue is to ask how a person got lost in the first place.

Romans 3:10 says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

OK, now we have the standard for salvation apart from Christ work. It's being equal to God. Do you see that in this short verse?

Romans 6:10 says that the wages of sin is death but the Gift of God is eternal life (paraphrased)

So, all men are already dead, all men are doomed unless they can become a god equal to The God.

Salvation is: confess, ask, recieve. All to the works of Jesus, not man's works. I can't confess of my goodness, I can't fix my dead in sin condition.

So, the bottom line question is: Find the end of anything eternal in the bible, or anywhere you wish to look for it.
Eternal = well.............eternal.

John 3:16 = eternal life for those that are saved.

Find any other definition of eternal. You can stop looking, there is not other definition of eternal.

I hope this helps.

[PaladinGirl]

Thanks Elder Mike. What are some of the most common verses used to support once saved always saved?

[eldermike]

Thanks Elder Mike. What are some of the most common verses used to support once saved always saved?
There are many, but it's not a verse war. Those that support OSNAS will twist any scripture you can find.

The basis of OSAS is not in verbs, although it's clearly supported in verbs. The basis is mans natural condition in sin. The natural man can't save himself, if he could Jesus died for no reason at all. Jesus death on a cross was for nothing if man could do good things to earn salvation or keep it through works.

OSAS = saved by the gift of Grace alone, by way of the gift of faith alone, by way of the cross and the work of Jesus alone. The new man is owned, purchased, paid for in full by Christ.

The bible will not support salvation as a work of man and at the same time, the cross of Jesus, one of these is a lie. If Jesus died to give you a chance at heaven based upon your ability, your goodness, then I don't understand the bible and might as well throw it away. But that's not what it says at all. It says, while I was yet a sinner Christ died for me. Yet a sinner? Christ died for sinners? Yes He did because that's all there is to die for, us sinners.

I suggest you read Eternal Security by Charles Stanley.

God bless and keep growing in our Lord Jesus!

[BereanTodd]

You have verses in John 6 that Jesus says that no one will He lose which indicate eternal security (notice in particular John 6 verses 37, 39-40, 44, and 54). You have the example of the very carnal Christians at Corinth, who Paul nonetheless clearly identifies as saints (i.e. saved). Also:

Romans 8:38-39
38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from his love. Death (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth-topics/death.htm) can't, and life can't. The angels can't, and the demons can't. Our fears for today, our worries about tomorrow, and even the powers of hell can't keep God's love away.
39 Whether we are high above the sky or in the deepest ocean, nothing in all creation (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth-topics/creation.htm) will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord

Ephesians 4:30 NLT
30 And do not bring sorrow (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth-topics/sorrow.htm) to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he is the one who has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption

NASB
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

Jude 24 NASB
24Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

John 10:27-29 NASB

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand

[DeaconDean]

Let me add this, this is an article I wrote a few years back:

Once Saved, Always Saved

But is it Biblical?


Not very many doctrines receive as much debate as this one does. Many adhere to it, others do not. There are a few others that will provoke debates even among long time Christians. The Rapture, Millennialism (pre, post, and al) just to mane a few. As for me, I believe in the doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved. I was taught this from an early age in church. And for many years I just accepted it as true. You know, what you learn at an early age tends to stick with you through life. I started seminary school and a whole new world opened up to me. I’ve got a thirst for knowledge that seems to be unquenchable. I began to research, to investigate, to seek enlightenment, regarding church doctrines and what we come to accept and believe. I have read some of the early church doctrines and early versions of Systematic Theology. I wanted to why we believe what we believe. I have studied such authors as: John Gill’s “Body of Practical Divinity,” The Complete Works of Jonathan Edwards, “Theology Proper” by Charles Hodge, “Institutes of Christian Religion” by John Calvin, “Abstract of Systematic Theology” by James Petigru Boyce, “Manual of Theology” by John L. Dagg, “Introduction to Christian Doctrine” by Millard Erickson, The Complete works of Arthur W. Pink. And just to balance things out, I’ve even read Charles Finney's 1851 Lectures on Systematic Theology (http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Voice/Systematic.Theology.1.html), and the Theology of Karl Barth (http://www.theology21.org/christianbook/karl_barth.htm), along with The Works of James Arminius (http://www.godrules.net/library/arminius/arminius.htm).

You see, I felt a need to see how theology has developed from the earliest days, up to the present time. I have even studied a lot of Augustine’s writings. While I do not agree with all of Augustine’s writings, I have been able to pick bits and pieces of useful information from him, he does have his good points. I have studied some of the Confessions of Faith, and in my humble opinion, The Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 to 1649 and The Baptist Faith and Message of 1963 are the best ones. But that’s neither here nor there. Before I get into this subject, I wanted to see how this idea developed. So I went and did research and some serious studying on the subject, I wanted to make sure that what I propose is right and biblical. I studied a lot of scripture while doing this, and decided on one single passage which I believe supports my position.

Before we dive in, I feel you should know at least some other views on this subject and their position:

Classic Arminianism: One must persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers can lose their faith.; Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.; The believer who loses his faith is damned.

Antinomianism: One need not persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers can lose their faith.; Those who lose their faith are saved because they once believed.; The believer who loses his faith is saved.

Classic Calvinism: One must persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is God’s gift.; Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.; Those who lose their faith never had it to begin with.; God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

Now lets look at the above table for just a minute. Arminians are right when they say the Bible teaches that only those who persevere will be saved, and they’re right in accusing Antinomians of easy-believism and cheap grace. Antinomians (they wouldn’t use the term) are right in telling committed believers that they are secure in Christ and “once saved, always saved.” But where both of these views are wrong, is in assuming that a true believer can lose his faith and fall away from Christ. Faith is “a gift of God—not by works, lest any man boast.” Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don't leave the faith (1 John 2:19).

Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace. Christians might temporarily yield to Satan's temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place! Peter went on to do great things for the Lord! It is my opinion that the classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data.

One argument against this used by the Arminians is: “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” Eze. 18:24. John Gill gives this answer:

“Such a sense of the words is contrary to the scope and design of the whole chapter, which not at all concerns the perseverance or apostasy of saints, and neither their salvation nor damnation; but the sole view of it is to vindicate the justice of God, from a charge of punishing the Jews, not for their own sins, but the sins of their fathers, and of injustice and inequality in his providential dealings with them, and has nothing to do with the spiritual and eternal affairs of men.”1 (http://us.f344.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?box=Saved%20Mail&MsgId=3802_32768_14569_1485_28248_0_9267_75597_2251042690&bodyPart=2&tnef=&YY=72094&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=1&view=a&head=b&ViewAttach=1&Idx=35#02000001)

The whole context wholly and solely regards the house of Israel, and the land of Israel, and the conduct of the people of Israel in it. In applying that to the saints in particular, which relates to the Jewish church and nation only, as distinguishable from all other people, and so stands self-condemned. Millions of instances of this kind will never enervate the doctrine of the saints perseverance; let it be proved if it can, that any one that has been made righteous by the obedience of Christ, and has been truly and inwardly sanctified by the Spirit and grace of God, ever so fell away, as everlastingly to perish; let this be proved and we have done: As for a man’s own righteousness and outward acts of holiness, we allow a man may turn from them and he lost, but not from the righteousness of Christ, which is everlasting, nor from an inward principle of grace and holiness, which ever abides.

Another argument is: "one who is endued with the faith that purifies the heart, that produces a good conscience, may nevertheless so fall from God, as to perish everlastingly." In proof of which is produced, 1 Timothy 1:19, 20, holding faith and a good conscience, which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck, of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander. It does not appear that these men ever had their hearts purified by faith; this should be first proved, before they are produced as instances of the apostasy of real saints; the contrary appears in their characters; they were ungodly men, and were never otherwise for any thing that is said of them; and after their profession of religion, they increased and proceeded to more ungodliness; they were vain-babblers, opposers of the doctrines of the gospel, and blasphemers of it, and were never upon the foundation that stands sure, or were known by the Lord as his, (see 1 Tim 1:20 and 2 Tim. 2:16, 19; 4:14, 15).2 (http://us.f344.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?box=Saved%20Mail&MsgId=3802_32768_14569_1485_28248_0_9267_75597_2251042690&bodyPart=2&tnef=&YY=72094&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=1&view=a&head=b&ViewAttach=1&Idx=35#02000002)

Arthur W. Pink says: “This terrible sin is not committed by a mere professor, for he has nothing to fall away from, save an empty name.”3 (http://us.f344.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?box=Saved%20Mail&MsgId=3802_32768_14569_1485_28248_0_9267_75597_2251042690&bodyPart=2&tnef=&YY=72094&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=1&view=a&head=b&ViewAttach=1&Idx=35#02000003)

Nor is it clear from the text, that they ever had a good conscience, but rather that they never had one; putting it away does not necessarily suppose they had it, but rather that they had it not, they rejecting it with dislike; as the Jews who never had the gospel are said to put it away; when they contradicted, blasphemed and rejected it, the apostle says, ye put it from you, απωθεισθε,the same word that is here used; ye rejected it, cast it from you, and would not receive it, so here; had these persons ever had a good conscience, it would rather have been said, which some having put out of them; but they never had it; when it was proposed to them, as the Christian religion proposes that a man should exercise a good conscience, they disliked it, and put it away, and would not attend to it, and chose rather to drop the faith they professed, as being contrary to their evil consciences and practices; besides, persons may have a good conscience in some sense, and as it is shews itself by an external behavior among men, which does not arise from an heart purified by faith; the apostle had such an one before he had faith in Christ, Acts23:1. though it does not seem as if these men had ever such an one.

The faith they made shipwreck of, is not the grace of faith, which it does not appear they ever had, but the doctrine of faith, the Gospel; περι τηv πιστεωv , concerning the faith, is a phrase that is never used but of the doctrine of faith, see Acts. 24:24; 1 Timothy 6:21; 2 Timothy 3:8. This is the faith they made shipwreck of, denied and destroyed, or contradicted and blasphemed, as it is explained in the next verse; and the particular doctrine of faith they made shipwreck of. Men may profess the doctrine of faith and fall from it; but this is no instance of a man’s having true faith which purifies the heart, and falling from God so as to perish.

Another objection is: “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” (Heb. 6:4-6) John Gill says:

“There is nothing in the characters of these persons which shew them to be true believers;there is nothing said of their believing in Christ, or that necessarily implies it; there is nothing said that is peculiar to true believers; they are not said to be regenerated by the Spirit of God, called by the grace of God, or sanctified, or justified, or adopted, or heirs of God, and meet for the inheritance, or sealed by the Holy Ghost, or any thing of that kind.”4 (http://us.f344.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?box=Saved%20Mail&MsgId=3802_32768_14569_1485_28248_0_9267_75597_2251042690&bodyPart=2&tnef=&YY=72094&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=1&view=a&head=b&ViewAttach=1&Idx=35#02000004)

The following section is taken from Arthur W. Pink’s Exposition of Hebrews:

“Apostasy from Christ was a step more easy and natural to a Jewish than to a Gentile believer, because the way was always open and inviting them, as men, to return to those associations which once carried with them the outward sanctification of Jehovah’s name, and which only the power of grace had enabled them to renounce. When heavenly realities became inoperative in their souls, the visible image was before them still, and here was the danger of their giving it the homage of their souls. If there were not an habitual exercise of their spiritual senses, the power of discernment could not remain: they would call evil good, and good evil. The ignorance which springs from spiritual neglect begins its own punishment of apathetic dullness on the once clear mind, and robs the spirit of its power to detect the wily methods of the Devil. It is in the presence of God alone that the Christian can exert his spiritual energies with effect. Abiding in Christ, maintains us in that presence. A more unhappy error cannot befall a believer than to separate, in the habit of his mind, acquired knowledge from the living Christ. Faith dies at once when separated from its object. Knowledge indeed is precious, but the knowledge of God is a progressive thing (Col. 1:10), whose end is not obtained this side of the glory (1 Cor. 8:2).”5 (http://us.f344.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?box=Saved%20Mail&MsgId=3802_32768_14569_1485_28248_0_9267_75597_2251042690&bodyPart=2&tnef=&YY=72094&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=1&view=a&head=b&ViewAttach=1&Idx=35#02000005)

Continued...

[DeaconDean]

A clear and growing faith, in heavenly things was needed to preserve Jewish Christians from relapse. To return to Judaism was to give up Christ, who had left their house ‘desolate’ (Matthew 23:38). It should be pointed out, however, that it is just as easy, and the attraction is just as real, for a Gentile Christian to return to that world out of which the Lord has called him, as it was for a Jewish Christian to go back again to Judaism.

In verse 4, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened" the apostle continues the digression which he began at Hebrews 5:11. The parenthesis has two divisions: the first, Hebrews 5:11-14 is reprehensible; the second, Hebrews 6:1-20 is hortatory. In chapter 6 he exhorts the Hebrews unto two duties: to progress in the Christian course (verses 1-11); to persevere therein (verses 12-20). The first exhortation is proposed in verses 1,2 and qualified in verse 3. The motive to obedience is drawn from the danger of apostasy (verses 4-6). The opening "For" of verse 4 intimates the close connection of our present passage with that which immediately precedes. It draws a conclusion from what the apostle had been saying in Hebrews 5:11-14. It amplifies the "if" in verse 3. It points a most solemn warning against their continuance in their present sloth.

Three things claim our careful attention in coming closer to our passage: the persons here spoken of, the sin they commit, the doom pronounced upon them. In considering the persons spoken of it is of first importance to note that the apostle does not say, "us who were once enlightened", nor even "you", instead, he says "those". In sharp contrast from them, he says to the Hebrews, "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you".

It is scarcely accurate to designate as "mere professors" those described in verses 4,5. They were a class who had enjoyed great privileges, beyond any such as now accompany the preaching of the Gospel. Those here portrayed are said to have had five advantages, which is in contrast from the six things enumerated in verses 1, 2, which things belong to man in the flesh, under Judaism. Five is the number of grace, and the blessings here mentioned pertain to the Christian dispensation. Yet were they not true Christians. This is evident from what is not said. Observe, they were not spoken of as God’s elect, as those for whom Christ died, as those who were born of the Spirit. They are not said to be justified, forgiven, accepted in the Beloved. Nor is anything said of their faith, love, or obedience. Yet these are the very things which distinguish a real child of God. First, they had been "enlightened". The Sun of righteousness had shone with healing in His wings, and, as Matthew 4:16 says, "The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up". Unlike the heathen, whom Christ, in the days of His flesh, visited not, those who came under the sound of His voice were wondrously and gloriously illumined.

The Hebrews had accepted the gospel of the once crucified and now glorified Redeemer, who sent down from heaven the Spirit, a sign of His exaltation, and a pledge of the future inheritance. Having thus entered into the sphere of new covenant manifestation, any one who willfully abandoned it could only relapse into that phase of Judaism which crucified the Lord Jesus. There was no other alternative for them, but either to go on to the full knowledge of the heavenly priesthood of Christ, and to the believer’s acceptance and worship through the Mediator in the sanctuary above, or fall back into the attitude, not of the godly Israelites before Pentecost, such as John the Baptist and those who waited for the promised redemption, nor even into the condition of those for whom the Savior prayed, ‘for they know not what they do’; but into a state of willful conscious enmity against Christ, and the sin of rejecting Him, and putting Him to an open shame" (Adolph Sophir)

Now I don’t believe that a true believer can fall into apostasy either. The stress is on “true believers.” And the people spoken of in Hebrews 6:4-6 were not true believers.

First, the Greek word for "enlightened" here signifies "to give light or knowledge by teaching". It is so rendered by the Septuagint in Judges 13:8, 2 Kings 12:2, 17:27. The apostle Paul uses it for "to make manifest", or "bring to light" in 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Timothy 1:10. Satan blinds the minds of those who believe not, lest "the light of the gospel should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4), that is, give the knowledge of it. Thus, "enlightened" here means to be instructed in the doctrine of the gospel, so as to have a clear apprehension of it. In the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26 the same people are said to have "received the knowledge of the truth", cf. also 2 Peter 2:20, 21. It is, however, only a natural knowledge of spiritual things, such as is acquired by outward hearing or reading; just as one may be enlightened by taking up the special study of one of the sciences. It falls far short of that spiritual enlightenment which transforms (2 Cor. 3:18). An illustration of a unregenerate person being "enlightened", as here, is found in the case of Balaam; Numbers 24:4.

Second, they had "tasted" of the heavenly gift. To "taste" is to have a personal experience of, in contrast from mere report. "Tasting does not include eating, much less digesting and turning into nourishment what is so tasted; for its nature being only thereby discerned it may be refused, yea, though we like its relish and savor, on some other consideration. The persons here described, then, are those who have to a certain degree understood and relished the revelation of mercy; like the stony-ground hearers they have received the Word with a transcient joy" (John Owen). The "tasting" is in contrast from the "eating" of John 6:50-56. Those here in view had had an acquaintance with the Gospel, as to gain such a measure of its blessedness as to greatly aggravate their sin and doom. An illustration of this is found in Matthew 13:20, 21.

Third, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit". First, it should be pointed out that the Greek word for "partakers" here is a different one from that used in Colossians 1:12 and 2 Peter 1:4, where real Christians are in view. The word here simply means "companions", referring to what is external rather than internal. These apostates had never been "born of the Spirit" (John 3:6), still less were their bodies His "temples" (1 Cor. 6:19). Nor do we believe this verse teaches that the Holy Spirit had, at any time, wrought within them, otherwise Philippians 1:6 would be contravened. It means that they had shared in the benefit of His supernatural operations and manifestations: "The place was shaken" (Acts 4:31) illustrates.

Fourth, "And have tasted the good Word of God". "I understand by this expression the promise of God respecting the Messiah, the sum and substance of all. It deserves notice that this promise is by way of eminence termed by Jeremiah ‘that good word’ (Jer. 33:14). To ‘taste’, then, this ‘good Word of God’, is to experience that God has been faithful to His promise. They could not say with Jeremiah, "Thy words were found and I did eat them" (Jer. 15:16). "Itis as though he said, I speak not of those who have received nourishment; but of such as have so far tasted it, as that they ought to have desired it as ‘sincere milk’ and grown thereby" (Dr. John Owen). A solemn example of one who merely "tasted" the good Word of God is found in Mark 6:20: "for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly".

Fifth, "And the powers of the world to come," or "ageto come." The reference here is to the new dispensation which was to be ushered in by Israel’s Messiah according to Old Testament predictions. It corresponds with "these last days" of Hebrews 1:2, and is in contrast from the "time past" or Mosaic economy. These "powers" of the new Age are mentioned in Hebrews 2:4, to our comments on which we would refer the reader. Of these mighty "powers" these apostates had "tasted",or had an experience of. They had been personal witnesses of the miracles of Christ, and also of the wonders that followed His ascension, when such glorious manifestations of the Spirit were given. Thus they were "without excuse". Convincing and conclusive evidence had been set before them, but there had been no answering faith in their hearts. A solemn example of this is found in John 11:47, 48. The class here described are such as had had their minds enlightened, their consciences stirred, their affections moved to a considerable degree, and yet who were never brought from death unto life. Nor is it backsliding Christians who are in view. It is not simply "fall into sin",this or that sin. The greatest "sin" which a regenerated man can possibly commit is the personal denial of Christ: Peter was guilty of this, yet was he "renewed again unto repentance". It is the total renunciation of all the distinguishing truths and principles of Christianity, and this not secretly, but openly, which constitutes apostasy.
By ‘falling away’, we are plainly to understand what is commonly called apostasy. This does not consist in an occasional falling into actual sin, however gross and aggravated; nor in the renunciation of some of the principles of Christianity, even though those should be of considerable importance; but in an open, total, determined renunciation of all the constituent principles of Christianity, and a return to a false religion, such as that of unbelieving Jews or heathens, or to open infidelity and open godlessness" (Dr. J. Brown).

"If they shall fall away". "This is scarcely a fair translation. It has been said that the apostle did not here assert that such persons did or do ‘fall away’; but that if they did—a supposition which, however, could never be realized—then the consequence would be they could not be ‘renewed again unto repentance’. The words literally rendered are, ‘And have fallen away’, or, ‘yet have fallen’.

Taking the passage as a whole, it needs to be remembered that all who had professed to receive the Gospel were not born of God: the parable of the Sower shows that. Intelligence might be informed, conscience searched, natural affections stirred, and yet there be "no root" in them. All is not gold that glitters. There has always been a "mixt multitude" (Ex. 12:38) who accompany the people of God. Moreover, there is in the real Christian the old heart, which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", and therefore is he in constant need of faithful warning. Such, God has given in every dispensation: Genesis 2:17; Leviticus 26:15, 16; Matthew 3:8; Romans 11:21; 1 Corinthians 10:12.

Continued...

[DeaconDean]

Finally, let it be said that while Scripture speaks plainly and positively of the perseverance of the saints, yet it is a perseverance of saints, not unregenerate professors. Divine preservation is not only in a safe state, but also in a holy course of disposition and conduct. We are "kept by the power of God through faith". We are kept by the Spirit working in us a spirit of entire dependency, renouncing our own wisdom and strength. The only place from which we cannot fall is one down in the dust. It is there the Lord brings His own people, weaning them from all confidence in the flesh, and giving them to experience that it is when they are weak they are strong. Such, and such only, are saved and safe forever.

Now to the passage in question.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Pelagius held a man-centered concept of salvation in which grace was unnecessary and man's heart was not affected by Adam's fall into sin. Augustine set forth the biblical teaching that Adam's sin was imputed to the race, that man did not have the moral ability to respond to Christ apart from the grace of God and, therefore, God was the initiator of salvation. Coupled with the idea that salvation was of the Lord was also the implication that God would carry out his plan and purpose in the life of each recipient of divine grace. Shortly after the time of Augustine, the Church moved away from his position and embraced a semi-pelagian concept in which man possessed an autonomous will that had the moral power to choose the gospel in and of itself. This laid the foundation for many of the Roman Catholic concepts of man contributing to his salvation through earning merit before God. Semi-Pelagianism focused on the power of man to choose the good; to make right moral decisions, and ultimately be able to choose Christ. This position denies the fact that Scripture teaches that man is dead in sin (Eph. 2:1-3; Col. 2:13); that no one is righteous, understands, or seeks for God (Rom. 3:9-12); that man is hostile to the law of God and is incapable of submitting to it (Rom. 8:7); that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44, 63-65); and that regeneration must precede faith (Eph. 2:1-5; John 3:1-10; John 1:12,13; 1 John 5:1). Semi-Pelagianism, in giving great power to man, also gives man the power to receive and reject salvation repeatedly. A person's salvation ultimately lies in the whims of that person's will. This is the background to the debate of whether or not a Christian can lose his salvation. The Augustinian position and later the position of the Reformers in the sixteenth century was that if a person is truly regenerate, God will protect and sustain that person so that he will persevere unto the end and be saved.

Many people who approach the Christian life in an antinomian (lawless) way and excuse their sin by saying, "It doesn't matter what I do, because I can't lose my salvation." That is a distortion, not only of grace, but also of the concept of salvation itself. Many of the arguments I have heard against the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints stem from understanding the doctrine in this way. Paul goes to great lengths in Romans 6 to demonstrate that if a person is truly in Christ, he cannot sin in order that grace might abound. Union with Christ presupposes a new heart that desires to obey God.

"For I am confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil.1:6) In John 6:37-40, Jesus states that all who the Father gives to him will come to him and the ones who come will not be cast out. Verses 39 and 40 say, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that he has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I myself will raise him up on the last day." Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe and he immediately connects the giving of eternal life to the resurrection; those who come to him will be raised up on the last day (see also: John 5:24; 6:44). Just as Philippians 1:6 says that God will perfect the work which he began to the day of Christ Jesus, so also Jesus ties coming to him and receiving eternal life with the idea of a future resurrection. Receiving eternal life is concomitant with being raised on the last day. The two ideas cannot be separated. Eternal life is not eternal if it can be lost in the morning and regained in the evening only to be lost again at some future date; it is not eternal if it lasts only five days or five years. When Jesus promises eternal life and connects the receiving of eternal life with a future resurrection, he is teaching that the true believer is eternally saved.

This same idea is reiterated in John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." Again, Jesus states that he gives his sheep eternal life and emphasizes this by the statement that no one is able to snatch them out of either his or his Father's hand. Concerning this passage, some contend that although others cannot snatch a man out of God's hand, the man himself is free to do so. However, the verse states that no one can do this. That is a universal negative which certainly includes the man himself. The passage does not qualify the "no one" by saying that the regenerate man himself may make himself unregenerate and translate himself from the kingdom of God back into the kingdom and family of the devil. Another attempt to discount this passage argues that Satan can snatch a man out of the hand of God. This passage blatantly contends that the Father is greater than all and no one can snatch them out of his hand. That certainly includes the devil and man. This passage also demonstrates that the perseverance of the saints is actually a preservation by their Savior; their coming (being drawn by the Father) and their perseverance are grounded on God and not man (see: John 6:53,63-65).

If you believe in the sovereignty of God, that He is omnipotent, all powerful, then how can you disagree with the above passage? If man can take himself out of the Father’s hand, then in effect, that makes man more powerful than God! And this is not so. God sits on high, and rules all facets of my life, my world and is the only God.

The predominant teaching of Scripture is that the believer is eternally saved. The rejection of this position means that assurance of salvation is impossible. The most anyone could say is that at a present moment in their life they are in a state of grace, but they could not express assurance toward ultimate salvation; they could not say that they knew they were going to heaven because the possibility of falling from that state of grace sometime in their life exists. Those who hold that the true Christian can lose his salvation find themselves in disharmony with a preponderance of Scriptural evidence.

1 Final Perseverance, Asserted and Vindicated, John Gill

2 Ibid

3 Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 24: Apostasy

4 Final Perseverance, Asserted and Vindicated, John Gill

5 Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 24: Apostasy


Hope this explains some things.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[TexasSky]

Romans 6:1-11

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%206:1-11#fen-NIV-28060a)] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.


Romans 8:1
Romans 8:37-39
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. NIV

John 10:28
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."1 John 3:9
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.


Someone explained to me once this way.

Salvation was never something you earned.
You were guilty of sin.

You don't have and will never have the authority to grant forgiveness from sin.

You will never be clean and holy enough, without Christ, to clense your life of sin.

God, however, is the King of all Kings.
He, through Christ, offered you a royal pardon for sins that you had not yet committed at the time Christ came.

Once you accepted that Royal Pardon, Christ became a part of your life, and that pardon for past and future sins was offered then.

Christ living within you will change you. You will not want to give into the thempations of sin as often or as strongly as you did before. When you do give into those temptations, the Christ within you will call to your heart.

However, you will still be very human, and you will still make mistakes.

When Christ offered you that pardon, He knew every mistake you would make in your life before you were ever born. The pardon was not for the mistakes you made in the past, you hadn't made them yet.

So it isn't about whether YOU are holy enough or not.

It is about whether Jesus Christ is holy enough or not.

[Melly Monster]

This is why I believe in OSAS!

First for those who believe "Oh I'm a good person, I've done so much and I go to church so I'm going to heaven".

God clearly says in his word that Our Works will not save us.

" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5

Titus says clearly that Salvation isnt something youhave to work for. The Mercy of Christ is what saves us.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

Eph. says we have to have faith to be saved this is the faith that Jesus died upon the cross and freed our souls of sin. The gift, is the gift we choose to accept which is salvation.

I have gotten the question "What if I decide I do not want this gift anymore? Can I throw it away?"

I personaly believe if you are truely saved you would not want to give it back, you are human and being human we all sin and fall away from God at times, but you do not need to ask him to save you again, you just need to repent. If we lost our salvation each time we sinned, we would never go to heaven because God created us as sinners, Christ only died one time, if you could throw your salvation away, then what makes you think you could get it back? If you sinned so much you lost your salvation then you are saying you have to work for it.

"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36

Everlasting life doesnt this mean for ever?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

If you believe God sent Jesus to die for you, and you confess it, you'll have everlasting life or (Live forever) with God in heaven.

Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it — it would not be a free gift — and God would be a liar!

". . . the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

". . .by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18


Just as nothing can "negate" your physical birth, nothing can "negate" your spiritual birth.

Seth will always be my son, no matter what he does, he'll always have my DNA, and just like christ, when we accept him into our hearts, we have been washed by his blood and his blood is in us so we have the DNA of christ.

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29

Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY — you become a child of God.

"Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . ." 1 John 3:2

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER." Romans 8:15

Jesus promised He will never leave us. Jesus could not say this if there was even a chance of losing our salvation.

". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5

". . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20

When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) — SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true.

"He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ." John 5:24

Jesus will never cast us out.

". . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37

We are "perfected for ever" by Jesus Christ. How could the Lord say such a bold statement if we had to earn or keep our salvation?

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14


We are Sealed.

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

". . .after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13


What about the "backslider" or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) — but he himself shall be saved!

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15


Our salvation is so secure — even if we BELIEVE NOT after we're saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), ". . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF."

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13


But what if I comment a horriable sin (Murder, adultry ect..) In christs eyes all sin is equal.

1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands ". . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" — Paul still speaks of that person being saved — ". . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . ."

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5


With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you — to even suggest you could lose your salvation — is calling God a LIAR!
". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10


And this is my thoughts.

[TimRout]

"Since, also, He (Jesus) is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." [Hebrews 7:25/NASB]

Note: Not all translations render eis to panteles "forever". Some prefer "completely". A literal reading might be "...is able to save to the entire those who come to God through Him...." Given the context, I believe the New American Standard reading is more consistent with the eternality of Christ's intercessory work.

[mesue]

Some things for you to consider for the assurance of salvation.
Jesus promised that I cannot lose my salvation:
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)
Further, that I cannot do anything to lose my salvation because salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works. It is a gift from God. No man can lose his salvation on his own, because no man earned his salvation.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
If I had to do anything to earn or keep my salvation, I would easily lose it.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)
Yet 2 Timothy assures us it is Jesus Christ who keeps us, not we ourselves.
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
(2 Timothy 1:12)
Galatians 2:21 states clearly that if we could become righteous by anything we do, then Jesus Christ’s death was in vein.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(Galatians 2:21)
God won’t cast me out, no man can cause me to lose my salvation, I cannot lose it myself and there is nothing else to make me lose my salvation
For I am persuaded, that neither
death, - you cannot lose it when you die
nor life, - you cannot lose it while you’re alive
nor angels, - cannot take it away from you
nor principalities, - the government can’t take it from you.
nor powers, - the devil cannot cause you to lose it.
nor things present, - nothing happening right now
nor things to come, - nothing happening in the future.
Nor height, - nothing above you.
nor depth, - nothing below you.
nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)
Does this mean I can go on and knowingly sin? Absolutely not!
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15)
But how I serve the Lord while here on earth will be judged.
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Corinthians 3:13-15)

[nzguy]

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

(2Co 1:21-22) Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Joh 6:27 Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

(Eph 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)

all verses from KJV

[PaladinGirl]

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

(2Co 1:21-22) Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Joh 6:27 Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

(Eph 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)

all verses from KJV

I am just curious. You quoted John 5:24 which is a common verse in support of the apostolic Christian doctrine of the Eucharist. Do you believe in the Eucharist? :confused:

[PaladinGirl]

Ok everyone, I have some additional questions. How does a believer in once saved always saved explain verses like Hebrews 6:4-6 and 2 Peter 2:20?

[Melly Monster]

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Well repentance has nothing to do with salvation, well it does, but I repent everyday, we are suppose to repent for our sins, but to ask God to come into our hearts and save us over an over, is crucifying Christ over and over.

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

I really do not understand this and I don't get what it has to do with us OSAS believers...

[nzguy]

compare those verses with these, remembering that it is scripture in context that is the truth.. not just verses on there own..

Joh 10:28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.


Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


1Co 3:11 For any other foundation can no one lay than the one being laid, who is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble,
1Co 3:13 each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.
1Co 3:14 If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Ephesians 1:13b-14 in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

So the Hebrews 6 passage.. is about someone who is saved.. who has struggles in their walk with God.. they can't put Christ back on the cross to pay for their sins again.. since He has already done it! The 'falling away' for the person in this verse does not mean losing salvation.. it is just struggling with their faith.

There is no unforgiveable sin........ salvation can in no way be lost because Jesus won't let you go.

even if you rebel after salvation.. you are still His child.. because it is like being born into your blood family.. your parents stay your parents even when you deny them.. and God's bond to us is even deeper than there's since it is spiritual!