Tangled Tethers...

[Cris413]

It’s quite true there are many mysteries in the Bible. Symbols, types and layers of understanding that expound on the plain (literal) meaning. The OT is Christ concealed and the NT Christ revealed…

…however

Everyone of the major heresies started with a germ of truth that got exaggerated, overemphasized, over embellished and eventually became a heresy.

Scriptural protection from this sort of trap is to absorb the WHOLE counsel of God.
-Chuck Missler - 2006 Koinonia House Inc


Mosaic Judaism – Torah, The direct word of God given to Moses which “progressed” into Pharisaical Judaism (400 B.C.) which added Oral Law to Mosaic Law which was eventually written down - Talmudic Judaism (300-600 A.D.) then branched off into Kaballah (12th century) and then branched of into Hasidic Judaism (18th century)

Notice how the further things went along and branched off into their own (understanding)…the more Judaism became “tangled tethers” of the original word God gave to Moses.

Kaballah: a medieval and modern system of Jewish theosophy, mysticism, and thaumaturgy marked by belief in creation through emanation and a cipher method of interpreting Scripture 2a: a traditional, esoteric, occult, or secret matter b: esoteric doctrine or mysterious art.

Mysticism : the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight)3 a: vague speculation:a belief without sound basis b: a theory postulating the possibility of direct and intuitive acquisition of ineffable knowledge or power

This is the very thing, I believe, Jesus warns us about in the Parable of the Mustard Seed.

Matthew 13:31,32

31Another parable put He forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Considering a mustard plant only normally grows into a bush about 3 feet tall…a mustard tree would be an abomination.

The birds of the air refer to the ministers of the enemy…(as in the same birds of the air that devoured the seeds that fell by the wayside)

Perhaps in taking symbolism, and deeper meanings too far from the literal and plain meaning…entertaining sacred secrets, exaggerating symbolism…delving into deeper meanings that lead away from rather than expounding on the plain meaning and such… grows into an abomination to such proportion that one’s faith could actually become a haven for the enemy…

[LJSGM]

Sounds about right to me :)

[LJSGM]

oh, I forgot to say, thanks for revealing something new to me, that God has revealed to you.

[Nadiine]

It’s quite true there are many mysteries in the Bible. Symbols, types and layers of understanding that expound on the plain (literal) meaning. The OT is Christ concealed and the NT Christ revealed…

…however

Everyone of the major heresies started with a germ of truth that got exaggerated, overemphasized, over embellished and eventually became a heresy.

Scriptural protection from this sort of trap is to absorb the WHOLE counsel of God.
-Chuck Missler - 2006 Koinonia House Inc


Mosaic Judaism – Torah, The direct word of God given to Moses which “progressed” into Pharisaical Judaism (400 B.C.) which added Oral Law to Mosaic Law which was eventually written down - Talmudic Judaism (300-600 A.D.) then branched off into Kaballah (12th century) and then branched of into Hasidic Judaism (18th century)

Notice how the further things went along and branched off into their own (understanding)…the more Judaism became “tangled tethers” of the original word God gave to Moses.

Kaballah: a medieval and modern system of Jewish theosophy, mysticism, and thaumaturgy marked by belief in creation through emanation and a cipher method of interpreting Scripture 2a: a traditional, esoteric, occult, or secret matter b: esoteric doctrine or mysterious art.

Mysticism : the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight)3 a: vague speculation:a belief without sound basis b: a theory postulating the possibility of direct and intuitive acquisition of ineffable knowledge or power

This is the very thing, I believe, Jesus warns us about in the Parable of the Mustard Seed.

Matthew 13:31,32

31Another parable put He forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Considering a mustard plant only normally grows into a bush about 3 feet tall…a mustard tree would be an abomination.

The birds of the air refer to the ministers of the enemy…(as in the same birds of the air that devoured the seeds that fell by the wayside)

Perhaps in taking symbolism, and deeper meanings too far from the literal and plain meaning…entertaining sacred secrets, exaggerating symbolism…delving into deeper meanings that lead away from rather than expounding on the plain meaning and such… grows into an abomination to such proportion that one’s faith could actually become a haven for the enemy…
You said this alot better than I have in the past and I cannot agree more!

The truth is, ANYONE can infer anything in symbolisms and make all kinds of doctrines up by them; I see it on this forum continually.

The most recent one I read was someone claiming that the "goats" in the parables Jesus used was just our "outer man" (our physical flesh), and that we are ALL SHEEP inwardly spiritually; and it's the outer "hull" (if you will) that gets burned up, we all are saved inwardly.

For that matter, I can claim the mustard tree symbolizes WOMEN - they tend to be smaller than men..... or whatever else I can conjure up to make whatever points I want to make or believe.

People that run off into the symbolisms & mysteries have a similar pattern of being WAY off in simple doctrines that should be easy to grasp as far as I'm concerned; missing the forest for the little tree in the corner.
:help: :swoon: :doh:

[Tavita]

You said this alot better than I have in the past and I cannot agree more!

The truth is, ANYONE can infer anything in symbolisms and make all kinds of doctrines up by them; I see it on this forum continually.

The most recent one I read was someone claiming that the "goats" in the parables Jesus used was just our "outer man" (our physical flesh), and that we are ALL SHEEP inwardly spiritually; and it's the outer "hull" (if you will) that gets burned up, we all are saved inwardly.

For that matter, I can claim the mustard tree symbolizes WOMEN - they tend to be smaller than men..... or whatever else I can conjure up to make whatever points I want to make or believe.

People that run off into the symbolisms & mysteries have a similar pattern of being WAY off in simple doctrines that should be easy to grasp as far as I'm concerned; missing the forest for the little tree in the corner.
:help: :swoon: :doh:


It's all a matter of balance, and wisdom.

We're not to take one verse with symbolism and interpret it on it's own, making up our own minds as to what we think it is.

We need to learn what that particular verse means in comparison to what the rest of the scriptures say. For example, the white linen garments of the Levitical priests, are the same white garments of the Bride of Christ which show purity and the righteousness of Christ. If you study every piece of the Tabernacle you will be able to understand the symbolism in Revelation, etc.

Scripture is to be interpreted by scripture (and with Holy Spirit revealing of course).

And we also have to be careful of thinking that how we interpret a scripture, or what we think a scripture to mean, is the only meaning it can have. There are many facets to the diamond of truth and we ought to be open to Holy Spirit revealing more of that truth to us. And we ought not close the door to Holy Spirit concerning a passage because we have it set in our minds what we think that verse or passage means.

:)

[Tavita]

Everyone of the major heresies started with a germ of truth that got exaggerated, overemphasized, over embellished and eventually became a heresy.

Scriptural protection from this sort of trap is to absorb the WHOLE counsel of God.
-Chuck Missler - 2006 Koinonia House Inc





Not meaning to be picky but Chuck Missler is one of those who promote the Nephilim teaching. That the giants in the land were of the seed of the fallen angels, and that they are still around today as possibly 'aliens'.

Now to many people that whole subject is a false teaching. (I have not closed my mind to this, but I'm unsure)

See how easy it is to say you have the truth, (not saying Chuck Missler says that) or that you have studied the whole counsel of God?

[Nadiine]

Not meaning to be picky but Chuck Missler is one of those who promote the Nephilim teaching. That the giants in the land were of the seed of the fallen angels, and that they are still around today as possibly 'aliens'.

Now to many people that whole subject is a false teaching. (I have not closed my mind to this, but I'm unsure)

See how easy it is to say you have the truth, (not saying Chuck Missler says that) or that you have studied the whole counsel of God?
There have been people who have come out of Satanism that do claim that demons can have sex w/ women...
I personally don't know. Some things I won't ever know until this life is over and that's probly one of them.

I love Chuck Missler - but I'd add that he does focus on the main doctrines does lengthy studies on regular doctrines.
I have nothing against some symbolism usage - I've heard alot of great sermons using them. But there's a huge difference on using them within sound doctrine and creating symbolisms to promote other doctrines or creating others.

[BustedFlat]

Not meaning to be picky but Chuck Missler is one of those who promote the Nephilim teaching. That the giants in the land were of the seed of the fallen angels, and that they are still around today as possibly 'aliens'.

As there were Nephilim around in the days of Noah and in later times how would you explain them.

Gen 6:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&verse=4&version=kjv#4)There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

[B]Luk 17:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=17&verse=26&version=kjv#26)
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Now to many people that whole subject is a false teaching. (I have not closed my mind to this, but I'm unsure)

See how easy it is to say you have the truth, (not saying Chuck Missler says that) or that you have studied the whole counsel of God?

Then why phrase it as such?

If you have heard Chuck Missler teach then you know that the first thing he states is that you need to write down Acts 17:11 in your notes. That the Bereans state that you are not to believe anything that Chuck Missler (or anyone else) says but search THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD to see if it is true.

If you have a problem with the teaching, which he states is a personal belief and not a scriptural truth, then lay out the reasons he is wrong. Do not attack everything he has taught because you disagree with his personal understanding on this one thing.

[BustedFlat]

There have been people who have come out of Satanism that do claim that demons can have sex w/ women...
I personally don't know. Some things I won't ever know until this life is over and that's probly one of them.

I love Chuck Missler - but I'd add that he does focus on the main doctrines does lengthy studies on regular doctrines.
I have nothing against some symbolism usage - I've heard alot of great sermons using them. But there's a huge difference on using them within sound doctrine and creating symbolisms to promote other doctrines or creating others.
You are right Nadiine, The Holy Spirit uses all kinds of rhetorical devices through the 66 Books, but none of them will take away from, or change the meaning of the plain text. It will only amplify or clarify the message of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

[Tavita]

As there were Nephilim around in the days of Noah and in later times how would you explain them.

Gen 6:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&verse=4&version=kjv#4)There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

[B]Luk 17:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=17&verse=26&version=kjv#26)
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.


Then why phrase it as such?

If you have heard Chuck Missler teach then you know that the first thing he states is that you need to write down Acts 17:11 in your notes. That the Bereans state that you are not to believe anything that Chuck Missler (or anyone else) says but search THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD to see if it is true.

If you have a problem with the teaching, which he states is a personal belief and not a scriptural truth, then lay out the reasons he is wrong. Do not attack everything he has taught because you disagree with his personal understanding on this one thing.

I didn't attack Chuck Missler for this teaching. If you had read my post correctly you would see that I said many people would take it as a false teaching. I didn't say I do, in fact I said I'm not sure of it. Now you are attacking me for something I didn't say.

:eek: I can't believe how people twist things in this forum. Why is everyone out for a fight? Can't anyone discuss anything anymore?

I'm done with this place.

[BustedFlat]

I didn't attack Chuck Missler for this teaching. If you had read my post correctly you would see that I said many people would take it as a false teaching. I didn't say I do, in fact I said I'm not sure of it. Now you are attacking me for something I didn't say.

:eek: I can't believe how people twist things in this forum. Why is everyone out for a fight? Can't anyone discuss anything anymore?

I'm done with this place.
I twisted nothing you said.
I asked you why you phrased it as you did?
I then pointed out what he says before teaching that.
Then asked you to clarify your position you were not taking in your post.

[Nadiine]

I didn't attack Chuck Missler for this teaching. If you had read my post correctly you would see that I said many people would take it as a false teaching. I didn't say I do, in fact I said I'm not sure of it. Now you are attacking me for something I didn't say.

:eek: I can't believe how people twist things in this forum. Why is everyone out for a fight? Can't anyone discuss anything anymore?

I'm done with this place.
I don't know about anyone else, but I DO lose alot in written conversation!! I can't hear tone, I have to concentrate more on what's being said,...
I've taken alot of things wrongly in written format; some people were making jokes and I didn't even realize it.

Such is written discussion/debate. I've had people misunderstand mine too - many times. Alot gets lost in this format imho.
I try hard to grasp everything, but I don't always succeed; it's just human error sometimes.

[Nadiine]

You are right Nadiine, The Holy Spirit uses all kinds of rhetorical devices through the 66 Books, but none of them will take away from, or change the meaning of the plain text. It will only amplify or clarify the message of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
agreed 100% :thumbsup: :amen:

[BustedFlat]

I don't know about anyone else, but I DO lose alot in written conversation!! I can't hear tone, I have to concentrate more on what's being said,...
I've taken alot of things wrongly in written format; some people were making jokes and I didn't even realize it.

Such is written discussion/debate. I've had people misunderstand mine too - many times. Alot gets lost in this format imho.
I try hard to grasp everything, but I don't always succeed; it's just human error sometimes.
It is a problem we all have.
English composition was not one of my favs in school, and if it were not for being forced to take it as a pre-requirement for my technical field career I would never taken it.
It is not easy to limit your communication by 90%, as words are only 10% of what goes into the message you deliver. I need to get better at laying out my thoughts in written form.

[Nadiine]

It is a problem we all have.
English composition was not one of my favs in school, and if it were not for being forced to take it as a pre-requirement for my technical field career I would never taken it.
It is not easy to limit your communication by 90%, as words are only 10% of what goes into the message you deliver. I need to get better at laying out my thoughts in written form.
uh huh - and let me guess, you're a Math whiz? People that don't excel in grammar tend to be naturally smart in Math.

[BustedFlat]

Math is a lot easier than English Lit ;) spelling too.

[Cris413]

oh, I forgot to say, thanks for revealing something new to me, that God has revealed to you. :)...God is awesome!

:amen:

[Cris413]

It's all a matter of balance, and wisdom.

We're not to take one verse with symbolism and interpret it on it's own, making up our own minds as to what we think it is.

We need to learn what that particular verse means in comparison to what the rest of the scriptures say. For example, the white linen garments of the Levitical priests, are the same white garments of the Bride of Christ which show purity and the righteousness of Christ. If you study every piece of the Tabernacle you will be able to understand the symbolism in Revelation, etc.

Scripture is to be interpreted by scripture (and with Holy Spirit revealing of course).

And we also have to be careful of thinking that how we interpret a scripture, or what we think a scripture to mean, is the only meaning it can have. There are many facets to the diamond of truth and we ought to be open to Holy Spirit revealing more of that truth to us. And we ought not close the door to Holy Spirit concerning a passage because we have it set in our minds what we think that verse or passage means.

:) I do not disagree with this...as Chuck Missler pointed out...it's the whole counsel of God. The fullness of His word.

The discovery of each new facet...only adds to the other facets...never detracts from them nor does it change a "facet" into a flaw

...and the diamond always remains a diamond...it never changes into a different element.

I think this is true of more than just symbolism and layers of understanding...

...but also regarding an exaggerated/obsessive focus on "portions" of Scripture....building on an interpretation of Scripture that is in direct conflict with other Scripture...again we can end up with a giant mustard tree...
</IMG>

[james415]

This is the very thing, I believe, Jesus warns us about in the Parable of the Mustard Seed.

Matthew 13:31,32

31Another parable put He forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.


I agree with the OP, but disagree with the OP’s interpretation of The Mustard Seed parable. IMO Jesus was speaking of faith. The birds of the air are the over-comers who enter Gods rest by putting there faith in Him, the Tree of Life. The only other reference to Mustard Seed I can find is the association it makes to faith in Luke 17:5-6. I have found nothing that associates Mustard Seed to an abomination.

Luke 17:5-6 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.

[Cris413]

<snip>

If you have heard Chuck Missler teach then you know that the first thing he states is that you need to write down Acts 17:11 in your notes. That the Bereans state that you are not to believe anything that Chuck Missler (or anyone else) says but search THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD to see if it is true.

:thumbsup: As every good pastor/teacher will always and repeatedly encourage we prayerfully search the Scripture regarding anything and everything...

[Nadiine]

I do not disagree with this...as Chuck Missler pointed out...it's the whole counsel of God. The fullness of His word.

The discovery of each new facet...only adds to the other facets...never detracts from them nor does it change a "facet" into a flaw

...and the diamond always remains a diamond...it never changes into a different element.

I think this is true of more than just symbolism and layers of understanding...

...but also regarding an exaggerated/obsessive focus on "portions" of Scripture....building on an interpretation of Scripture that is in direct conflict with other Scripture...again we can end up with a giant mustard tree...
</IMG>
:amen: :thumbsup: :amen: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Cris413]

I agree with the OP, but disagree with the OP’s interpretation of The Mustard Seed parable. IMO Jesus was speaking of faith. The birds of the air are the over-comers who enter Gods rest by putting there faith in Him, the Tree of Life. The only other reference to Mustard Seed I can find is the association it makes to faith in Luke 17:5-6. I have found nothing that associates Mustard Seed to an abomination.

Luke 17:5-6 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.
Here we're talking about even the smallest amount of faith can produce magnificient results....

Not the other way around.

Yes....mustard seeds are quite small....

However, there is no such thing as a mustard tree

I was quite amazed at this revelation myself as I have read that Scripture many, many times before and never gleaned that understanding until an indepth study...

I can ony imagine the look on my face as the reality set in....LOL...:idea:

[james415]

Here we're talking about even the smallest amount of faith can produce magnificient results....

Not the other way around.

Yes....mustard seeds are quite small....

However, there is no such thing as a mustard tree

I was quite amazed at this revelation myself as I have read that Scripture many, many times before and never gleaned that understanding until an indepth study...

I can ony imagine the look on my face as the reality set in....LOL...:idea:
And heaven is not a mustard seed either, but it is used to describe heaven and make a point.

[Cris413]

And heaven is not a mustard seed either, but it is used to describe heaven and make a point.
and...we're also talking about a seed a man took and planted...in his field...;)

I think more to the point would be...this man's concept of heaven...or faith, or spirituality...

His sowing his own understanding which without the foundation and guidence of God...grew into this giant mustard tree...

just a thought

[Cris413]

<snip>. The birds of the air are the over-comers who enter Gods rest by putting there faith in Him, the Tree of Life.
So these "birds of the air" are different "birds of the air" than those who devoured the seeds that fell by the wayside?

Mark4:4 And it happened, as he sowed, [that] some [seed] fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it.

I find it a bit hard to consider the birds of the air that are the over-comers who entered God's rest...would be about devouring those who fall by the wayside...

See...this is the thing about symbolism...I think there should be some consistency...

[BustedFlat]

I agree with the OP, but disagree with the OP’s interpretation of The Mustard Seed parable. IMO Jesus was speaking of faith. The birds of the air are the over-comers who enter Gods rest by putting there faith in Him, the Tree of Life. The only other reference to Mustard Seed I can find is the association it makes to faith in Luke 17:5-6. I have found nothing that associates Mustard Seed to an abomination.

Luke 17:5-6 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.

You need to look to who is the prince of the power of the air.

Eph 2:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eph&chapter=2&verse=2&version=kjv#2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

[Nadiine]

So these "birds of the air" are different "birds of the air" than those who devoured the seeds that fell by the wayside?

Mark4:4 And it happened, as he sowed, [that] some [seed] fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it.

I find it a bit hard to consider the birds of the air that are the over-comers who entered God's rest...would be about devouring those who fall by the wayside...

See...this is the thing about symbolism...I think there should be some consistency...
Without any consistency of meaning, anyone can pick anything they want to suit their private interpretations and basically support or create any doctrines they want.

[Cris413]

You need to look to who is the prince of the power of the air.

Eph 2:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eph&chapter=2&verse=2&version=kjv#2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:Exactly...:thumbsup: Scripture interpreting Scripture...


Without any consistency of meaning, anyone can pick anything they want to suit their private interpretations and basically support or create any doctrines they want.

Absolutely...please pardon my redundancy...but this applies to literal readings/interpretations as well as symbolism and deeper meanings and such...

Scripture must ALWAYS agree with Scripture...

and it will....when absorbed in context as interpreted by the Holy Spirit...

The Spirit will NEVER contradict Scripture.

but will, however, contradict our understanding in the flesh...

...and this is where we have a choice....

...either to be conformed by the Spirit...or to try and conform God's word to our own understanding...

</IMG>

[james415]

and...we're also talking about a seed a man took and planted...in his field...;)

I think more to the point would be...this man's concept of heaven...or faith, or spirituality...

His sowing his own understanding which without the foundation and guidence of God...grew into this giant mustard tree...

just a thought
First off Chris, I want to thank you for sticking to the subject and not making it personal.
You make a compelling argument and I am inclined to change my mind except I don’t totally agree with your logic. The seed a man planted in Matthew 13:24 was a good seed. So for the sake of consistency I would have to say that the seed a man planted in Matthew 13:31 was also a good seed. And I just can’t see the kingdom of heaven becoming an abomination as you suggest in your OP. I can see the Kingdom of Heaven co-existing along side of the abomination though, as is the way I understand the parable of the weeds to mean in Matthew 13:24-39. So if you understand that we as individuals are Gods field (1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.) you understand that we as individuals are both the wheat and the weed; the wheat being Christ in us, and the weed being our flesh. They are allowed to grow together until the wheat (spirit within us) matures. 1 Corinthians 15 is saying the same thing except instead of wheat and weeds it is natural and spiritual bodies (first and last Adam). I hope this helps you to understand why I see things that way I do.

Note: Forgot to add; our flesh (earthly) is the enemy of our spirit (heavenly). Also, Paul in Romans 7 is discribing this war between the spirit and the flesh.

[Cris413]

First off Chris, I want to thank you for sticking to the subject and not making it personal.
You make a compelling argument and I am inclined to change my mind except I don’t totally agree with your logic. The seed a man planted in Matthew 13:24 was a good seed. So for the sake of consistency I would have to say that the seed a man planted in Matthew 13:31 was also a good seed. And I just can’t see the kingdom of heaven becoming an abomination as you suggest in your OP. I can see the Kingdom of Heaven co-existing along side of the abomination though, as is the way I understand the parable of the weeds to mean in Matthew 13:24-39. So if you understand that we as individuals are Gods field (1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.) you understand that we as individuals are both the wheat and the weed; the wheat being Christ in us, and the weed being our flesh. They are allowed to grow together until the wheat (spirit within us) matures. 1 Corinthians 15 is saying the same thing except instead of wheat and weeds it is natural and spiritual bodies (first and last Adam). I hope this helps you to understand why I see things that way I do.

Note: Forgot to add; our flesh (earthly) is the enemy of our spirit (heavenly). Also, Paul in Romans 7 is discribing this war between the spirit and the flesh.

And thank you for your consideration of my post...

I've thought about this considerably throughout the day and what has been placed on my heart is that...

as in the example of the parable of the sower...

all the seeds were the same...the significant difference was the ground where the seeds fell...and how they were nourished, or choked, the soil was rocky...or they simply fell by the wayside...

To me...the interesting point is that it wasn't the "seed" but the circumstance of the seed that held the vital importance to their survival and/or growth....

Where the seed falls and how it's tended to is what determines the fruit it produces...

Fruit that is pleasing to God...or a mustard tree that should have only become a mustard bush...excellent for seasoning...

I understand what you're saying regarding your thoughts on the wheat and the tares....I do not agree though...and perhaps that's another topic for discussion.

The pupose and intent of this thread...is to bring an awareness...as in the example of the "progression" of Judaism....that the farther our "tethers" grow from the basic and simple pure truth of God...

...the more opportunity those tethers become a tangled mess....there are no longer clear lines of understanding toward the word of God

Now the focus changes...more toward our own knowledge and understanding...than actual growth IN the Spirit according to the good will and purpose of God.

[BustedFlat]

First off Chris, I want to thank you for sticking to the subject and not making it personal.
You make a compelling argument and I am inclined to change my mind except I don’t totally agree with your logic. The seed a man planted in Matthew 13:24 was a good seed. So for the sake of consistency I would have to say that the seed a man planted in Matthew 13:31 was also a good seed. And I just can’t see the kingdom of heaven becoming an abomination as you suggest in your OP. I can see the Kingdom of Heaven co-existing along side of the abomination though, as is the way I understand the parable of the weeds to mean in Matthew 13:24-39. So if you understand that we as individuals are Gods field (1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.) you understand that we as individuals are both the wheat and the weed; the wheat being Christ in us, and the weed being our flesh. They are allowed to grow together until the wheat (spirit within us) matures. 1 Corinthians 15 is saying the same thing except instead of wheat and weeds it is natural and spiritual bodies (first and last Adam). I hope this helps you to understand why I see things that way I do.

Note: Forgot to add; our flesh (earthly) is the enemy of our spirit (heavenly). Also, Paul in Romans 7 is discribing this war between the spirit and the flesh.

James:
From Pastor Chuck Smith C2000 Commentary (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&verse=33&Comm=Comm%2Fchuck_smith_c2000%2FMat%2FMat013.html%2311%26%7BChuck+Smith%26&Select.x=27&Select.y=12#11):

And years ago when I was in seminary I had a very smart professor who exhorted us young seminarians to not preach from the parables until we've been pastoring for at least thirty years. I now qualify. And I wish I had back a lot of those sermons that I preached from the parables when I thought my professor didn't know what he was talking about. But over the years there has been a definite change in my understanding of the parables.
I suggest you read the whole teaching.

The 7 Kingdom parables have a commentary penned by Christ himself in the book of Revelation, the seven letters to the seven churches corresponds directly to the parables... Matt 13:31,32 is covered in Revelation 2:12-17. Both letters from Paul to the Church at Corinth also go into much greater detail on the same theme.

Rev 2:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=2&verse=12&version=kjv#12) And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Rev 2:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=2&verse=13&version=kjv#13) I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 2:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=2&verse=14&version=kjv#14) But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=2&verse=15&version=kjv#15) So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Rev 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=2&verse=16&version=kjv#16) Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.Rev 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=2&verse=17&version=kjv#17) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].

[james415]

And thank you for your consideration of my post...

I've thought about this considerably throughout the day and what has been placed on my heart is that...

as in the example of the parable of the sower...

all the seeds were the same...the significant difference was the ground where the seeds fell...and how they were nourished, or choked, the soil was rocky...or they simply fell by the wayside...

To me...the interesting point is that it wasn't the "seed" but the circumstance of the seed that held the vital importance to their survival and/or growth....

Where the seed falls and how it's tended to is what determines the fruit it produces...

Fruit that is pleasing to God...or a mustard tree that should have only become a mustard bush...excellent for seasoning...

I understand what you're saying regarding your thoughts on the wheat and the tares....I do not agree though...and perhaps that's another topic for discussion.

The pupose and intent of this thread...is to bring an awareness...as in the example of the "progression" of Judaism....that the farther our "tethers" grow from the basic and simple pure truth of God...

...the more opportunity those tethers become a tangled mess....there are no longer clear lines of understanding toward the word of God

Now the focus changes...more toward our own knowledge and understanding...than actual growth IN the Spirit according to the good will and purpose of God.

I agree with you, there is only one seed. That seed was Christ who is referred to as the Word in John 1. Convincing people that the Seed of God is in them is not so hard but convincing them that the Seed contains Gods plan and that plan rules their lives is not so easy. They can’t seem to stop trusting in their own plans. Gods plans are the law of the spirit; our plans are the Law of the flesh. When we trust in our own plans we are like the weed or the unruly goat; when we trust in Gods plan we become like the wheat or the obedient sheep. If we teach faith (in Christ) we are watering the seed of God; if we teach Law we are watering the seed of man. The Bible is not the word we must learn to follow, rather, it is a telling of the Word that lives within us that we must learn to follow.

Anyway, that is my understanding. I am not trying to force a change in your beliefs, just sharing mine. What ever the real truth is, only God can make it grow.

[james415]

James:
From Pastor Chuck Smith C2000 Commentary (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&verse=33&Comm=Comm%2Fchuck_smith_c2000%2FMat%2FMat013.html%2311%26%7BChuck+Smith%26&Select.x=27&Select.y=12#11):

And years ago when I was in seminary I had a very smart professor who exhorted us young seminarians to not preach from the parables until we've been pastoring for at least thirty years. I now qualify. And I wish I had back a lot of those sermons that I preached from the parables when I thought my professor didn't know what he was talking about. But over the years there has been a definite change in my understanding of the parables.
I suggest you read the whole teaching.

The 7 Kingdom parables have a commentary penned by Christ himself in the book of Revelation, the seven letters to the seven churches corresponds directly to the parables... Matt 13:31,32 is covered in Revelation 2:12-17. Both letters from Paul to the Church at Corinth also go into much greater detail on the same theme.

Rev 2:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=2&verse=12&version=kjv#12) And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Rev 2:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=2&verse=13&version=kjv#13) I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 2:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=2&verse=14&version=kjv#14) But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=2&verse=15&version=kjv#15) So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Rev 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=2&verse=16&version=kjv#16) Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.Rev 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=2&verse=17&version=kjv#17) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].
Thanks for sharing.

God bless,
James

[Cris413]

I agree with you, there is only one seed. That seed was Christ who is referred to as the Word in John 1. Convincing people that the Seed of God is in them is not so hard but convincing them that the Seed contains Gods plan and that plan rules their lives is not so easy. They can’t seem to stop trusting in their own plans. Gods plans are the law of the spirit; our plans are the Law of the flesh. When we trust in our own plans we are like the weed or the unruly goat; when we trust in Gods plan we become like the wheat or the obedient sheep. If we teach faith (in Christ) we are watering the seed of God; if we teach Law we are watering the seed of man.
I do not have any major disagreement with this…any comment would be splitting hairs at best…

This, however, I must firmly refute

The Bible is not the word we must learn to follow, rather, it is a telling of the Word that lives within us that we must learn to follow.

As I noted in the OP…Mysticism : the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight)3 a: vague speculation:a belief without sound basis b: a theory postulating the possibility of direct and intuitive acquisition of ineffable knowledge or power.

When we view things subjectively or by intuition or insight, vague speculation and such…we are delving into mysticism…

This is the very reason we MUST compare all things to Scripture…. otherwise…we are tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine…or thoughts emanating from our heads…(I will even go as far to say…planted there by the enemy)

2 Timothy 3:13-17

13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Acts 17:11

11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


2 Peter 3:16-18

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


Anyway, that is my understanding. I am not trying to force a change in your beliefs, just sharing mine. What ever the real truth is, only God can make it grow.
As I am sharing mine…

I would like to offer though…there is no doubt about the truth in Scripture…

I will give credence to the fact that not all translations are accurate. The Scriptures, however, in the original language and text are inerrant and infallible.

This is why we are to “search” the Scriptures…not just merely read through them. Every Bible study should begin with prayer…requesting wisdom and understanding through the Holy Spirit…

And as we all know…the Spirit will never contradict Scripture and Scripture will never contradict Scripture in it’s proper context.

[Nadiine]

This, however, I must firmly refute

Originally Posted by james415 http://www3.foru.ms/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=39169513#post39169513)
The Bible is not the word we must learn to follow, rather, it is a telling of the Word that lives within us that we must learn to follow.

As I noted in the OP…Mysticism : the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight)3 a: vague speculation:a belief without sound basis b: a theory postulating the possibility of direct and intuitive acquisition of ineffable knowledge or power.

When we view things subjectively or by intuition or insight, vague speculation and such…we are delving into mysticism…

This is the very reason we MUST compare all things to Scripture…. otherwise…we are tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine…or thoughts emanating from our heads…(I will even go as far to say…planted there by the enemy)

2 Timothy 3:13-17
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Acts 17:11
11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

2 Peter 3:16-18
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

[snip]
I would like to offer though…there is no doubt about the truth in Scripture…

I will give credence to the fact that not all translations are accurate. The Scriptures, however, in the original language and text are inerrant and infallible.

This is why we are to “search” the Scriptures…not just merely read through them. Every Bible study should begin with prayer…requesting wisdom and understanding through the Holy Spirit…

And as we all know…the Spirit will never contradict Scripture and Scripture will never contradict Scripture in it’s proper context.
[my large emphasis on 1 paragraph]

If you do a word study on "doctrine" and "scripture", you'll see that the bible claims to be direct truth OF GOD, inspired by His own Spirit - it claims authority to speak on God's behalf - penned by the very eyewitnesses of God; & those who literally walked with the Messiah.
They're either LYING or they're telling the truth about God directly. (and need I remind anyone that even in our modern day courts of law, we accept the testimony of just 1 eyewitness as 'truth' - in the Bible's case, we have about 40 of them telling an interwoven, covenantal story of the same God spanning some 4000 years of time)

If they're lying, then throw out the bible - or use it this falltime for some good kindling in your fireplaces.
It is not esoteric, it's absolute truth from God to us to know Him by and to know what He requires and what pleases Him.

It's true or a cruel lie and we're MOST Pityable to follow it for nothing! Jesus quoted the scriptures repeatedly as TRUTH. And Luke 16 says that one is responsible to know truth just by Moses and the prophet's eyewitness testimonies.
I'd say it's cut & dry. ;) :preach:

[james415]

I do not have any major disagreement with this…any comment would be splitting hairs at best…

This, however, I must firmly refute


As I noted in the OP…Mysticism : the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight)3 a: vague speculation:a belief without sound basis b: a theory postulating the possibility of direct and intuitive acquisition of ineffable knowledge or power.

When we view things subjectively or by intuition or insight, vague speculation and such…we are delving into mysticism…

This is the very reason we MUST compare all things to Scripture…. otherwise…we are tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine…or thoughts emanating from our heads…(I will even go as far to say…planted there by the enemy)

2 Timothy 3:13-17

13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Acts 17:11

11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


2 Peter 3:16-18

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


As I am sharing mine…

I would like to offer though…there is no doubt about the truth in Scripture…

I will give credence to the fact that not all translations are accurate. The Scriptures, however, in the original language and text are inerrant and infallible.

This is why we are to “search” the Scriptures…not just merely read through them. Every Bible study should begin with prayer…requesting wisdom and understanding through the Holy Spirit…

And as we all know…the Spirit will never contradict Scripture and Scripture will never contradict Scripture in it’s proper context.
Chris, I think you have misunderstood my words. The Bible is my only source for the word of God and believe truth is revealed by the Holy Spirit.

When I say this:
The Bible is not the word we must learn to follow, rather, it is a telling of the Word that lives within us that we must learn to follow.I mean this:
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

When I say this:
What ever the real truth is, only God can make it grow.I mean this:
wisdom and understanding through the Holy Spirit… But understanding comes in Gods time not ours.

Don’t you think we are just mincing words?

[Cris413]

Chris, I think you have misunderstood my words. The Bible is my only source for the word of God and believe truth is revealed by the Holy Spirit.

When I say this:
I mean this:
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

When I say this:
I mean this:
But understanding comes in Gods time not ours.

Don’t you think we are just mincing words?

It might be preferable to say what you mean in the first place rather than responding to clarify after the fact...

I think participation in these forums demands, prayerful, careful thought and consideration...before posting statements...

...and no...I don't think we're mincing words...there is either confusion...or clarity and bold statements regarding Scripture...should be nothing but clear.

Say what you mean...and mean what you say...

A statement such as "The Bible is not the word we must learn to follow" is quite a bold statement.... in error.

Proverbs 16:9 is by no means suggesting following our heart rather than Scripture...


I am simply of a mind that I feel it's super important that we search the Scripture to be certain our thoughts line up with the Word...even more so if we plan to share them with others...

As witnesses...it is vital we're are clear and rightful representations...according to the good will and purpose of God.


I'm sorry James...I simply can't agree with the "I said this...but I meant that" mentality...

Nothing personal...it's merely an observation about the importance of being clear and consistent....

[james415]

It might be preferable to say what you mean in the first place rather than responding to clarify after the fact...

I think participation in these forums demands, prayerful, careful thought and consideration...before posting statements...

...and no...I don't think we're mincing words...there is either confusion...or clarity and bold statements regarding Scripture...should be nothing but clear.

Say what you mean...and mean what you say...

A statement such as "The Bible is not the word we must learn to follow" is quite a bold statement.... in error.

Proverbs 16:9 is by no means suggesting following our heart rather than Scripture...


I am simply of a mind that I feel it's super important that we search the Scripture to be certain our thoughts line up with the Word...even more so if we plan to share them with others...

As witnesses...it is vital we're are clear and rightful representations...according to the good will and purpose of God.


I'm sorry James...I simply can't agree with the "I said this...but I meant that" mentality...

Nothing personal...it's merely an observation about the importance of being clear and consistent....
What ever you say Chris.
God Bless,
James

[BustedFlat]

What ever you say Chris.
God Bless,
James
I think you missed the whole reason for the OP. It is not what Cris says, it is not what James says, it is not what Busted says,,, it is about what God says, and we are to test everything against the scriptures to make sure it is of God!

1Jo 4:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=4&verse=1&version=kjv#1)¶Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

[james415]

I think you missed the whole reason for the OP. It is not what Cris says, it is not what James says, it is not what Busted says,,, it is about what God says, and we are to test everything against the scriptures to make sure it is of God!

1Jo 4:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=4&verse=1&version=kjv#1)¶Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
No Busted, I understood the OP completely. I even agreed with it.

[james415]

Considering a mustard plant only normally grows into a bush about 3 feet tall…a mustard tree would be an abomination.

Chris - I decided to check a couple of commentaries on the Parable of the Mustard Seed. I only checked two and both disagree with your interpretation of the mustard seed becoming an abomination. There are plenty of other verses that will support your OP, which I agree with, but I don’t think this parable is one of them.

The Kingdom Is like a Mustard Seed, Matthew 13:31-32, Biblegateway Commentary
Despite some dispute today over which plant Jesus intended, the mustard seed had become proverbial for small size (17:20; m. Niddah 5:2; Toharot 8:8). Although not literally the smallest of seeds, and yielding a shrub rather than a tree in the technical botanical sense in English, the mustard plant hyperbolically conveyed Jesus' point (the inconspicuous becomes mighty) better than any other. (It commonly reaches eight to ten feet around the Lake of Galilee.

The Parable of the Mustard Seed, Matthew 13:31-32, NIV Disciple’s Study Guide
In spite of small beginnings, the kingdom grows to enormous significance. Worldly success standards do not apply to the kingdom. It grows as God chooses.

God bless,
Jim

[Cris413]

Chris - I decided to check a couple of commentaries on the Parable of the Mustard Seed. I only checked two and both disagree with your interpretation of the mustard seed becoming an abomination. There are plenty of other verses that will support your OP, which I agree with, but I don’t think this parable is one of them.

The Kingdom Is like a Mustard Seed, Matthew 13:31-32, Biblegateway Commentary
Despite some dispute today over which plant Jesus intended, the mustard seed had become proverbial for small size (17:20; m. Niddah 5:2; Toharot 8:8). Although not literally the smallest of seeds, and yielding a shrub rather than a tree in the technical botanical sense in English, the mustard plant hyperbolically conveyed Jesus' point (the inconspicuous becomes mighty) better than any other. (It commonly reaches eight to ten feet around the Lake of Galilee.

The Parable of the Mustard Seed, Matthew 13:31-32, NIV Disciple’s Study Guide
In spite of small beginnings, the kingdom grows to enormous significance. Worldly success standards do not apply to the kingdom. It grows as God chooses.

God bless,
Jim
thanks for sharing james...

...and I'm sure if you continue to look...you can find several others...that do agree (all depends where you look) ;)

which still leaves the question regarding the birds of the air...which I don't think can be easily disregarded...and is actually the significance...IMHO

Anyway...I've said everything I've felt led to say regarding this parable...

Anything further would be redundant and simply debating Scripture for the sake of debating Scripture...(never good)

or some prideful attempt to prove myself right...:blush:

be blessed in His word

[james415]

thanks for sharing james...

...and I'm sure if you continue to look...you can find several others...that do agree (all depends where you look) ;)

which still leaves the question regarding the birds of the air...which I don't think can be easily disregarded...and is actually the significance...IMHO

Anyway...I've said everything I've felt led to say regarding this parable...

Anything further would be redundant and simply debating Scripture for the sake of debating Scripture...(never good)

or some prideful attempt to prove myself right...:blush:

be blessed in His word

Matthew 13:31,32

31Another parable put He forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Considering a mustard plant only normally grows into a bush about 3 feet tall…a mustard tree would be an abomination.

If you do find something to support your theory that the kingdom of heaven becomes an abomination, please share.

James

[Cris413]

If you do find something to support your theory that the kingdom of heaven becomes an abomination, please share.

James
Please James...I do not believe... nor have I said... the implication here is that the kingdom of heaven becomes an abomination...

I do believe I've already addressed this in post #24 a couple pages ago...

With all due respect James...I'm starting to understand why people lose their patience with you...

You seem to want to argue an issue past the point of redundancy...

Sometimes...we really need to just let it go and allow the Holy Spirit to edify...

If you feel you're right...rest comfortably in that...why is it so important you convince me you're right?

I'm no one...