Peter and the church...sifted as wheat [Archive]

Wheeler

24th September 2007, 07:44 AM

Peter is a symbol for the church...

(Luke 22:31 KJV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Just as Satan wanted to test Peter.....he has "desired" or demanded for trial of the church to TEST it....to "sift" it as wheat....to sift those who "hear"...."Simon, Simon". "Desired" in Greek is the word "exaiteomai" which means to "to demand (for trial).

(Rev 2:10 KJV) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The devil has cast the church into a "prison" in order that it may be "tried".

Jesus tells the church at Smyrna to "be thou faithful unto death"....likewise, Jesus told Peter that he had prayed that his (Peter's) faith would not fail:

(Luke 22:32 KJV) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Peter's response also highlights the church's being thrown into "prison" and the experience of "death":

(Luke 22:33 KJV) And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

The church has experienced a "second death" in which the faithful "unto death" would not be hurt in:

(Rev 2:11 KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

What kind of "death" is this? We find the answer in John 21 when Jesus tells Peter what kind of death would glorify God:

18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

So also, the church would lose its power to those who would lead the sheep astray. Paul called them wolves who would enter into the church and not spare the flock.

Acts20: 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Jesus experienced death on the cross....and so his church would also experience a "death"....which is the "second death"...in which those who overcome will not be hurt .Jesus reassured us that he had gone through it (the "first" or original death if you will) and is alive:

(Rev 2:8 KJV) And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Interestingly, "Smyrna" means "myrrh" which is a burial spice....adding to the theme of death. Jesus was buried with myrrh and aloes (John 19:39). Jesus' death was a baptism that he experienced....and his church was to experience this baptism also:

Mark 10: 38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

Peter denied the Lord three times even though he said he would not though he should DIE with him:

(Mat 26:35 KJV) Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Indeed, some of the church has not denied his faith and kept his name.
The church in Ephesus has kept his name and his patience:

(Rev 2:3 KJV) And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

The church in Pergamos has held onto his name and has not denied his faith:

(Rev 2:13 KJV) I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

The church in Philadelphia has kept his word (of his patience and to love our brothers and sisters in Christ) and has not denied his name:

(Rev 3:8 KJV) I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

When the church repents of its ways and turns back to the Lord (to be "converted"), we are to strengthen the brothers:
(Luke 22:32 KJV) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

The Lord Jesus is patient as the church goes through this time of "death"...the church is asleep. This is why those that follow the Lord has also kept his word of patience. The church is "dead" and will be made "alive" again with power and the glory of God....just as Jesus once was dead and is now alive:

(Rev 1:18 KJV) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

He has the keys of Hades and death...to let the prisoners go from the prison and the "death" that the church is experiencing.

Wheeler

25th September 2007, 05:17 AM

The "ten days"...

(Rev 2:10 KJV) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The ten days is a spiritual reference pointing to when Daniel was "proved" or tested for 10 days by eating "pulse" and drinking water instead of the king of Babylon's meat and wine. The Hebrew word for "pulse" is "zeroa" which means "something sown". It could be vegetables, grain or (spiritually) the good seed that the Son of man sows.

Daniel 1: 11 Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah,
12 Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink.
13 Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king's meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants.
14 So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days.
15 And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king's meat.
16 Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine that they should drink; and gave them pulse.

During the ten days, the children ate the king of Babylon's meat and drank his wine. Likewise, the church has within it those who have eaten things sacrificed to idols (caused by the doctrine of Balaam teachings and Jezebel’s teachings). These teachings also cause people to "commit fornication"...spiritual fornication...."fornication" is compared to drinking the wine of Babylon. The eating and drinking theme is prominent in Revelation.

(Rev 2:14 KJV) But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

(Rev 2:20 KJV) Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

They have been made to drink the wine of her (Babylon's) fornication:

(Rev 14:8 KJV) And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

(Rev 17:2 KJV) With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Those who no longer partake of the meat and wine of Babylon…to the ones who have overcome, Jesus will give the right to eat of the tree of life.

(Rev 2:7 KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Jesus gives the ones who have overcome the “hidden manna”.

(Rev 2:17 KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

The countenance of the ones eating from the tree of life….eating the hidden manna….will be “fairer and fatter” (as stated in Daniel) than those who have eaten things sacrificed to idols and have drunk the wine of fornication.

Jesus stands at the door knocking…if we understand his voice and open the door, he will come and DINE with us:

(Rev 3:20 KJV) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

He will feed us with spiritual food and drink…those that are thirsty will be given water from the water of life:

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

There are those in Babylon that hunger and thirst. Daniel drank just water and not the wine...the Lord offers us the water of life:

(Rev 22:17 KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

jive4005

25th September 2007, 11:30 AM

(Luke 22:32 KJV) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

That's one prayer I can live with!

His,
Rev J

JolieHeart

26th September 2007, 12:33 PM

~ Amen ~

Wheeler

27th September 2007, 05:41 AM

Jesus knew things were going to get worse for the church (his body) after his departure . As he was being led away to be crucified, he asked.....

(Luke 23:31 KJV) For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

If they were going to put him to death then....in a green tree....what would they do to his body (the church) in the dry? "The dry" being the drought or the parched ground.... being the famine of hearing the words of God of which we are in presently.

(Amos 8:11 KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Things were going to get so bad in the church, he wondered if he would find faith would he returned:

(Luke 18:8 KJV) I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

And he said this in connection to the widow who pleaded with the judge to "avenge me of my adversary".

Luke18: 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.

The "widow" is the church.....the church is suffering at the hands of the enemy (the adversary)....Satan has been testing the church....Job comes to mind. The widow (the elect) cries out to God concerning the condition of the church under the leadership of the adversary.

4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

God has allowed this testing of the church by Satan to go on now for awhile.....he "bears long with them"...but He will avenge his own elect....those who hear and do His will. But their power is broken...they have little strength...they are a "widow".

(Dan 12:7 KJV) And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The church in Philadelphia had "little strength"....little power because Satan has accomplished to "scatter the power of the holy people".....His own elect. This is why Jesus tells the churches to "hold fast" until he comes:

(Rev 2:25 KJV) But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

(Rev 3:3 KJV) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

(Rev 3:11 KJV) Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

The enemy is a crown of thorns that rule over the church. Jonah had reeds (weeds) wrapped around his head in the belly of the fish:

(Jonah 2:5 KJV) The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

The hebrew for "wrapped" is "chabash" which means figuratively "to rule or govern"....and are wrapped tightly around his head....meaning that the adversary has a firm grip on those underneath them.

They put a crown of thorns on our Lord's head:

(Mark 15:17 KJV) And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head,

Likewise, the church has ruling thorns over it :

Isaiah 6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

God will also "command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it".....They are clouds without water (rain):

(Jude 1:12 KJV) These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

The thorns have come upon the land...upon all the houses....they rule:

(Isa 32:13 KJV) Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns and briers; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city:

Rulers live in castles.... "Pergamos" means "fortified castle or tower". The church in Pergamos lives where Satan's seat is:

(Rev 2:13 KJV) I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

But the gates of Hades will not prevail against the church:

(Mat 16:18 KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Because the church will "go forth" like calves out of the stall...out of the prison:

(Mal 4:2 KJV) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

The church will be released out of the prison of testing by Satan just as Peter was released from prison by the angel....a light shone in the darkness of the prison (Jesus will give us the morning star...he is the bright morning star...the Sun of righteousness arising with healing):

Acts12: 7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.

Peter was sleeping before this happened...likewise, the church is asleep. The church has been led where it did not want to go...others have gird (dressed) it. Peter was instructed to dress himself .....and so the church is also....and we are to follow Jesus. We are to buy white clothes from the Lord (Revelation 3:18).

8 And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.
9 And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.

The iron gate opens:

10 When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him.

Wheeler

28th September 2007, 06:02 AM

The thorns are shepherds who don't understand....they are out for their own gain:

Isaiah56:10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

They say...."I will fetch wine and will fill ourselves with strong drink..." This is the same as the servant who beats those underneath them (those entrusted to his care). They care not for the flock...they seek only their own gain:

Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

But blessed is the servant (a leader over the flock) who gives the people their meat (spiritual knowledge) in due season...when it is needed most:

Luke 12: 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

Paul warned about these shepherds...in fact he spent THREE years in TEARS warning people:

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Paul knew what characteristic to look for in these shepherds (grievous wolves)....coveting dishonest gain for themselves. This is why he stated that he coveted no man's silver or gold or apparel. "It is more blessed to give than receive".

33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35 I have showed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

It is all for the sake of dishonest gain that the bad shepherds preach for:

(Micah 3:11 KJV) The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.

When one covets another's properties, it is done in the absence of love....for having LOVE for one another is the fulfilling of the law. Love is the most important attribute one must possess in order to have eternal life.

Romans 13: 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

(Rom 13:11 KJV) And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

It is high time for the church to awake out of its sleep....because the deliverance from the prison that it has been in is VERY NEAR. "KNOWING THE TIME".....the time when the love of most grows cold...the love for one another in the church is at its lowest point...the peace between the brothers and sisters in Christ ebbs away:

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

"They" are the bad shepherds....they have afflicted the church....and have killed the faithful witness...the church is powerless to effectively preach the gospel. And because of their (the bad shepherd and their followers) pernicious ways, the world bashes Christianity...they speak evil of the way of truth. (2 Peter 2:2).

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

(Luke 21:28 KJV) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

bluediamond

28th September 2007, 11:36 PM

Wheeler

1st October 2007, 05:55 AM

Hi bluediamond,

Yes, it is the ecclesia that are being called out of Babylon..."church" means the "called out"....in this case when our Lord calls us out of Babylon, we are the "church" who hear the call and depart:

(Rev 18:4 KJV) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

We are "Zion":

(Zec 2:7 KJV) Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.

(Micah 4:10 KJV) Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

When the "church"....the "called out" leave Babylon....then Babylon is left with nothing but unclean things and people who do them:

(Rev 18:2 KJV) And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

We have the separation of the wheat from the tares taking place when the Ecclesia leaves Babylon....the synagogue of Satan. When the tares are all together without the wheat, then it is "easier" to punish them without rooting up the wheat.

It is the double-edged sword of the Truth that separates the two groups. The "tares" do not receive the love of the Truth that they may be saved or delivered from Babylon....they perish because of it:

(2 Th 2:10 KJV) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And so God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe a lie....keeping them in the bundle of tares.

(2 Th 2:11 KJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

So that they may be judged....they do not "hear" or understand the Truth....they reject it...because they love their dark deeds more than the light.

(2 Th 2:12 KJV) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The "wicked"....the tares will never understand:

(Dan 12:10 KJV) Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Wheeler

1st October 2007, 05:07 PM

As Peter says, we are to remember what the prophets have written to understand why these things have happened to the church and what the outcome will be:

(2 Pet 3:2 KJV) That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Jesus summed it up:

(Mat 24:9 KJV) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

"They shall deliver you"......meaning the ruling thorns over the body of Christ will put you into a spiritual prison. The greek word for "Deliver" is "paradidomi" which means " to surrender, i.e. yield up, intrust, transmit:--betray, bring forth, cast, commit, deliver (up), give (over, up), hazard, PUT IN PRISON, recommend."

"to be afflicted..."......meaning to bring tribulation on the body of Christ.....his church....his "called out" people.

"and shall kill you"....the thorns have overrun the church so that it is powerless under their rule. It is like a "death"....the second death. The rulers are like the "eagles" over the corpse (the saints):

(Luke 17:37 KJV) And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

(Mat 24:28 KJV) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

When Jesus said this, he was pretty much quoting Psalms 79:2.....that the ruling thorns were to come and mistreat the body of Christ..."and shall kill you"...which is not a literal death but a spiritual one..... to lie in ruins. We are the dead bodies given to be meat for the "fowls of heaven"...

79:1 A Psalm of Asaph. O God, the heathen are come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps.
2 The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.

"they have laid Jerusalem on heaps".....meaning they have taken the city of peace (spiritual Jerusalem) and promoted their violence....the coveting, the hatred within the body of Christ...who is supposed to love one another and to dwell in peace. We, the church, are in ruins because of these things....the "violence" sheds blood:

(Psa 79:3 KJV) Their blood have they shed like water round about Jerusalem; and there was none to bury them.

We have been "killed"....the "slain of Israel":
(Jer 51:49 KJV) As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth.

We have been their prisoners....we are their "prey":

(Nahum 3:1 KJV) Woe to the bloody city! it is all full of lies and robbery; the prey departeth not;

The outside world hates us because of the hypocrisy that they see within the "church" (those that are called by His name):

(Psa 79:4 KJV) We are become a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and derision to them that are round about us.

And again...

(Jer 51:51 KJV) We are confounded, because we have heard reproach: shame hath covered our faces: for strangers are come into the sanctuaries of the LORD'S house.

The Lord is showing the whole world the sins of the "churches"...the hypocrisies....the shame....the "nakedness"...

(Nahum 3:5 KJV) Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will show the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame.
3:6 And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make thee vile, and will set thee as a gazingstock.

This is why Jesus tells us to buy from him "white raiment. to be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear".......

(Rev 3:18 KJV) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

The Lord is revealing to the world all the sins of the church.....everything said and done in secret will be and is being exposed.

"...and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."......meaning that because of the rule of the thorns (their pernicious ways...2 Peter 2:2), the world will speak evil of the way of the truth . Their hypocrisy is easily seen by the outside world ....and the outside (of the church) world blasphemes the NAME of God:

(Isa 52:5 KJV) Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.

"..... they that rule over them make them to howl...": in other words, the rulers mock. These are the scoffers (the rulers who walk after their own lusts) mentioned in 2nd Peter 3:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

They say....."where is the promise of his coming?....".....this is like the servant who says "my lord delayeth his coming".....and begins to mistreat those entrusted to his care.

(Luke 12:45 KJV) But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

They are "drunken"....they rejoice on how easily men (like fish) are caught in their nets...we are without a shepherd:

(Hab 1:14 KJV) And makest men as the fishes of the sea, as the creeping things, that have no ruler over them?
15 They take up all of them with the angle, they catch them in their net, and gather them in their drag: therefore they rejoice and are glad.
16 Therefore they sacrifice unto their net, and burn incense unto their drag; because by them their portion is fat, and their meat plenteous.
17 Shall they therefore empty their net, and not spare continually to slay the nations?

The "drunk princes" of Babylon will not awaken to the truth when it is presented to them:

(Jer 51:57 KJV) And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.

Wheeler

2nd October 2007, 05:49 AM

Babylon will be thrown down ("Come down")....she will never again rule over the holy people ("there is no throne"). Her rule will be the dust:

(Isa 47:1 KJV) Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.

In Revelation, Babylon is thrown down:
(Rev 18:21 KJV) And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Babylon's sins are and will be exposed to the world....for all to see...."thy nakedness shall be uncovered"...."thy shame shall be seen".....she shall become a "gazingstock" to the world...the object of scorn.

2 Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.
3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.

The Lord comes to redeem us from her people and influences:

(Isa 47:4 KJV) As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

We are to "look up" and "lift up" our heads because our redemption draws near:

(Luke 21:28 KJV) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Babylon will lose her title....she will be cast into outer darkness:

(Isa 47:5 KJV) Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms.

God was angry at our church fathers for going astray....so He gave us into the hands of the spiritual Babylonians. They have showed us no mercy. They did not feed us nor gave us drink...they did not "visit "
us when we were in PRISON....they did nothing for the brothers and sisters in Christ.

(Isa 47:6 KJV) I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and given them into thine hand: thou didst show them no mercy; upon the ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke.

We have "inherited" the "sins of the fathers".....we follow in their footsteps....we have held onto their doctrines and practices:

Psalms 79: 8 Do not hold against us the sins of the fathers; may your mercy come quickly to meet us, for we are in desperate need.

The Lord will have mercy on us.....we are in "desperate need" because of Babylon and her people. God punishes the children for the sins of the church fathers to the spiritual third and fourth generation. We are in Babylon because of the past sins of the church.

(Num 14:18 KJV) The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Our fathers have sinned and we have inherited their punishment. The Babylonian rulers have control and there is none to redeem us from them....except for the Lord....our Redeemer:

(Lam 5:7 KJV) Our fathers have sinned, and are not; and we have borne their iniquities.
(Lam 5:8 KJV) Servants have ruled over us: there is none that doth deliver us out of their hand.

But God comes to redeem us from them. Babylon loses her reign....she thinks she will never be a widow...she thinks herself as a queen....she thinks she will see no sorrow. Those that hear and do the Lord's call to "come out" of Babylon are the "children" she will lose....we will all depart from her:

(Isa 47:7 KJV) And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it.
8 Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:

In Revelation:

(Rev 18:7 KJV) How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
(Rev 18:8 KJV) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Her rulers will lament when it all comes to an end....when the "church" escapes from their influence....the gravy train has ended...and it will be swift:

Revelation 18: 9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

The Lord comes to "spoil their pasture":

(Jer 25:34 KJV) Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.
35 And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape.
36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal of the flock, shall be heard: for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture.

Wheeler

4th October 2007, 05:59 AM

Jesus comes at the end of this age to give us understanding....to reveal what the Scriptures are truly saying. He comes with the Spirit of Truth...so that we may discern between who really follows God and who doesn't. We have been growing up with the "tares" (in our churches) without knowing who they are and what the unclean things are that have been taught us. The Lord will have mercy on us.....He will show us the difference between the righteous (the wheat) and the "wicked" (the tares).

(Mal 3:17 KJV) And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
l 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

They are the "Man of sin" to be revealed:

(2 Th 2:3 KJV) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The Son of man sends his messengers to gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM those things that "offend" (doctrines, practices, coveting, hating,etc) and those who do them.....without repenting when they hear the truth.....the "tares" stubbornly hang onto their works and positions.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice the tares are the ones that get thrown into the furnace of fire

(Mat 13:40 KJV) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

.....not the billions of sinners of the world.....the world is the field:

(Mat 13:38 KJV) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Our Lord and Savior is truly the Savior of the world.

Jesus comes to give us spiritual food and drink....he comes to "open" our eyes....he comes to "open" up the Scriptures so that we may understand them:

30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Just like Ezra....Jesus "opens" up our understanding to the Scriptures:

(Neh 8:5 KJV) And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;) and when he opened it, all the people stood up:

He opens up the understanding of what we have been reading all along:

(Neh 8:8 KJV) So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

This happened at the water gate....

(Neh 8:3 KJV) And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.

.Jesus comes to give us who thirst drink from the fountain of life:

(Rev 21:6 KJV) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

God says He will "open" rivers:

(Isa 41:18 KJV) I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.

We are in the drought...the famine of hearing or understanding the words of God....but He opens up the "springs of water" in the dry land.

He shall wipe away all our tears from the anguish and tribulation that we have suffered in Babylon....and shall feed us...we have been spiritually hungry and thirsty under their care:

(Rev 7:17 KJV) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Wheeler

14th October 2007, 03:10 PM

"Ephraim" is SPIRITUALLY the Christian, gentile church:

"Ephraim" means "fruitful". Joseph was a type for Jesus....and God had made his body (Christ's) "fruitful" in the land of his affliction.....after being rejected of his own household....the Jews.

(Gen 41:52 KJV) And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.

Jesus stated that the kingdom of God was going to be taken from the Jews and given to a nation (gentiles) who would bear fruit (Ephraim = fruitfulness):

(Mat 21:43 KJV) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

When Jesus approached Jerusalem, he was hungry and saw a fig tree that had no fruit. He then cursed it saying that no man would eat its fruit hereafter:

(Mark 11:14 KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

The fig tree "dried up from the roots". All of this signified the Jews losing the kingdom of God.

20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

And again, Jesus lamented the loss that was going to be suffered by the Jews....losing the kingdom of God...their house would be left "desolate":

(Mat 23:37 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(Mat 23:38 KJV) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

And then Jesus tells them that they would not see him until they say "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord":

(Mat 23:39 KJV) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

By saying this, it meant he would be hidden from their view.....that he would not walk openly among them from that point on as spiritually demonstrated by the following verse:

(John 11:54 KJV) Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.

It is NO COINCIDENCE that the city is called "Ephraim".....it signified that Jesus and his disciples would continue spiritually with the "gentiles" (near to the wilderness) who would produce fruit in the kingdom of God.

(Gen 48:14 KJV) And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.

The word "younger" is "tsa'iyr" in Hebrew which means "little". It is no coincidence that Paul's name also means "little" for he is known as the apostle to the gentiles.

(Gen 48:19 KJV) And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Ephraim would become greater than the firstborn.....his seed shall become a "multitude of nations." This is like saying a "multitude of gentiles" or the "fullness of gentiles". It is only after the "fullness of the gentiles" comes in that the natural branches, the Jews, would be grafted in again:

(Rom 11:25 KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(Rom 11:26 KJV) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The "gentiles" are also known by the name of "Israel" as well as foretold by Joseph's father, Israel (Jacob):

(Gen 48:16 KJV) The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Knowing that we (the Christian gentile church) are "Ephraim"....we should pay particular attention to the book of Hosea....it is directed to us. The church today is boasting in its worldly wealth and goods....we say we have no sin.....we have need of nothing. But yet, Jesus points out to us that we are just the opposite:

(Rev 3:17 KJV) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Jesus is quoting Hosea when he says that we say "I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing...":

(Hosea 12:8 KJV) And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found me out substance: in all my labours they shall find none iniquity in me that were sin.

Wheeler

15th October 2007, 05:11 PM

(John 11:54 KJV) Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.

So Jesus and his 12 disciples has spiritually continued with the Gentiles (Ephraim) after the Jews had rejected their Messiah. Joshua (who is a type for Jesus) camped in a place called Gilgal after crossing the Jordan. Gilgal is a code word for the Gentiles....and the 12 stones that were taken out of Jordan were the apostles that Jesus chose.

(Josh 4:19 KJV) And the people came up out of Jordan on the tenth day of the first month, and encamped in Gilgal, in the east border of Jericho.
(Josh 4:20 KJV) And those twelve stones, which they took out of Jordan, did Joshua pitch in Gilgal.

The apostles are the 12 foundation stones of holy Jerusalem:

(Rev 21:14 KJV) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Gilgal means "circle".....this is also the meaning of "Galilee". Both refer to the Gentiles....."Galilee of the Gentiles":

(Mat 4:15 KJV) The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

The Jordan river is the dividing line...it represents Christ's coming and death....his baptism and salvation...it is the spiritual river that provides a reference point. Jesus was baptized in the Jordan and had the Holy Spirit DESCEND upon him in the form of a dove. Interestingly, "Jordan" means "a descender".

Since Ephraim (and also Galilee) represents the Gentile Christian church...Manasseh represents the firstborn Jews who had believed on Christ. The very early Christian church was all Jews. "Manasseh" was the only tribe that had territories on BOTH sides of the Jordan.....spiritually; they were the Jews (on the east side of Jordan) that repented at the preaching of John the Baptist. It is no coincidence that John preached and baptized at the Jordan River. The Jews who received the Holy Spirit and were made part of the body of Christ are represented by the territory of Manasseh on the west side of Jordan. They are the FIRST BORN....this is why Jesus specifically told the apostles to go to the "lost sheep" of the house of Israel FIRST and NOT to the Gentiles:

Matthew 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

But it was Ephraim who received the blessing of the firstborn:

Genesis 48:
14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Ephraim was to become a "multitude of nations" or gentiles.....it is Gentiles that make up the bulk of the Christian church today and not Jews for this reason....it was God's plan as demonstrated by Joseph's children.

(Gen 48:20 KJV) And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Wheeler

17th October 2007, 05:45 AM

Satan had ASKED to sift Peter as wheat....to test him:

(Luke 22:31 KJV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Satan also has sifted the church as wheat with God's permission.....he has cast the church into prison so that it may be tested. He has brought many "unto death":

(Rev 2:10 KJV) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

This is also shown by example in Saul (before becoming Paul) who also asked and received authority from the chief priests to put many saints into prison where they were put to death. In fact, "Saul" means "ASKED". Saul punished the saints in every synagogue.....he compelled them to blaspheme. Satan has also "compelled" those in the church to blaspheme.

Acts 26: 10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,

Satan has put the church into prison....just as Saul entered into EVERY HOUSE and committed them to prison:

(Acts 8:3 KJV) As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Satan is the accuser....as he tried to get Job to curse God (to blaspheme) to His face, he has also has tried to do the same to the church:

Job 1: 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Satan was given power by God to test Job over all that he had...likewise, Satan was given power over all Jesus has:

(Job 1:12 KJV) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Satan was given power by God to test Job also by striking his bone and his flesh (his body).:

4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Likewise, God has given Satan power over the church (Christ's body)....to make war with the saints and to overcome them:

(Rev 13:7 KJV) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Job is an interesting book......I can almost see that Job is Christ...and the loss that Job suffered is the loss the body of Christ has suffered since Satan began his testing of the church. "Job" means "hated"....Christ was "hated" without cause (John 15:18 and25; Psalms 18:17)

Satan caused fire to fall from heaven in Job and burned up the sheep and the servants:

(Job 1:16 KJV) While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Satan also caused fire to fall from heaven in Revelation to deceive:

Revelation 13: 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

For people of the church (Christ's body) to be deceived is like saying the sheep and the servants of Job were burned up.....consumed.

The Chaldeans "fell upon the camels" and carried away them away and killed the servants with the sword:

(Job 1:17 KJV) While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

The "Chaldeans" are those people who have entered into the churches secretly while men slept (the tares were sown)...they are the "wolves" in sheep clothing who have scattered the flock...not "sparing the flock":

(Acts 20:29 KJV) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

They "entered in among" us.....they "fell upon the camels"....they spared not the flock.....they "carried them away."

The "Chaldeans" were planned by God for judgement of the sins of the Church fathers. They are more fierce than "evening wolves":

(Hab 1:6 KJV) For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
7 They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.
8 Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.

They....the "the evening wolves" are the judges...they are false prophets who perform their wonders in order to deceive the flock.......and try to deceive even the very elect:

(Zep 3:3 KJV) Her princes within her are roaring lions; her judges are evening wolves; they gnaw not the bones till the morrow.
4 Her prophets are light and treacherous persons: her priests have polluted the sanctuary, they have done violence to the law.

They are wolves in sheep's clothing......they are false prophets.....they are "ravening wolves"...."ravening".....they take away by force...they "fell upon the camels" and "carried them away."

The "Chaldeans" killed the servants of Job with the sword.....likewise, the false prophets have "killed" the true servants of Christ...they have replaced them with their own false teachings. The "Chaldeans" have seduced the people away from them. They draw out the sword:

(Psa 37:14 KJV) The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

Their false utterances and teachings are the "sword" that they use to slay:

(Psa 57:4 KJV) My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.

(Psa 64:3 KJV) Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words:

And many of the church have been snared by them....they have entered through the wide gate of "destruction".....ruin:

Matthew 7: 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Svt4Him

17th October 2007, 08:21 PM

Before I get to the novel you wrote, I would like to address one issue. Peter represents the church? Um, no, he doesn't unless I missed that verse.

Wheeler

19th October 2007, 05:48 AM

Hi Svt4Him,

Thank you for reading...I know, rather long.

Here is where I have based my "theory" that Peter (and his life events) represents the church:

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

"Simon Barjona" is Simon son of Jonah. "Simon" means "hearing" and "Jonah" means "dove".....hence we get "those who hear what the Spirit says".....the Father in heaven reveals it to us by the Spirit.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The gates of "hell" or Hades will not prevail....though they try.....trying to deceive even the elect. His church "overcomes" those of the wicked one. They overcome with love.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus has given his church the keys of the kingdom of heaven while he is away. He has gone on a "long journey".

(Prov 7:19 KJV) For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey:

But while he was gone, there arose the tares within the church who have seduced people...they have deceived those without understanding:

7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,
8 Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house,
9 In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night:
10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtle of heart.
11 (She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house:
12 Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.)
13 So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him,
14 I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows.
15 Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.
16 I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt.
17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves.
19 For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey:
20 He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.
21 With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.
22 He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;
23 Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.
24 Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth.
25 Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.
26 For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.
27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

Those deceived in the church have been in "hell" or Hades....in the chambers of "death."

But Jesus is coming back....he "will come home at the day appointed"... he is at the door of the house:

(Prov 7:20 KJV) He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.

And Jesus has the keys of "hell" and "death" to let those out of the prison of deception...the Lord is merciful and forgive us of our going astray from worshiping God in Spirit and Truth:

(Rev 1:18 KJV) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Svt4Him

19th October 2007, 10:24 AM

I know the verses, but still fail to see how the church is Peter. The word church does not fit the idea that one person can encapsulate it, Jesus built His church arguably upon the revelation that He was Christ, but Revelation is clear the foundation is more that Peter, with Christ being the chief cornerstone. Jesus did give the keys, then the question is what does that idiom or verse mean, and again there is nothing to say it means Peter is the church.

zeke37

19th October 2007, 12:10 PM

Hey wheeler...

very good study dude....the novel is worth the read....

Wheeler

23rd October 2007, 05:45 PM

zeke37.....

Thank you....the novels seem to be getting longer and longer.

Praise God!

Wheeler

23rd October 2007, 05:50 PM

Thank you for your patience. I really don't have a good answer for you regarding how Peter's life events are symbolic of what the church would experience other than highly unusual coincidences in both. I find it a strange statement to Peter if he somehow was not a "type" for the church.
Here are some long, rambling thoughts though. I'm sure I'm going to make this clear as mud....

Jesus is the chief corner stone. Peter is "petros" in Greek which is the "little or piece of rock" and the "rock" that the church is built on is "petra" which is "a mass of rock"....or a large rock.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

It is the church (the little rock) built onto the large rock which is Christ Jesus. We, the church, are the representation of Christ here on earth....we are his body. 1 PETER 2:

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

The church follows the same pattern of Christ's suffering, death and resurrection but we, the church, also follow Peter's life events.... his denials, his faults , his imprisonment, , and even his fishing.

The pattern the church follows of Christ's suffering, death, and resurrection:

The suffering: The early church and the disciples suffered greatly...it's members were physically beaten, killed burned, tortured, etc, by the outside world. They were in tribulation...but not from the inside of the church...but by those on the outside. The church was pure and of one mind at the beginning. It was the time of unleavened bread.

(Acts 2:44 KJV) And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

The death: The church "died" when it went astray from worshiping God in Spirit and Truth...it lost its wisdom...its power....its unity. Jesus garments were parted....so has the church been parted. The church has gone astray....but God has laid all the sins of the church upon Jesus. By going astray, the church has mimicked the denials of Peter. It has been the time of the bread of adversity and the water of affliction:

(Isa 30:20 KJV) And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

Like sheep we have all gone astray:

Isaiah 53: 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Jesus has not corrected the situation yet....he has not opened his mouth as all this has been going on in the church (to his body). The shearers have sheared off the church's righteousness. The church has been given over to the shepherds who do not care for the flock as the judgment of God. The church (Christ's body) has been taken away in judgment and prison. It has died.....just as Peter's death....by others dressing it and leading it where it would not go. But Christ, who is at the right hand of God, intercedes for his body...the church....there will be a day of atonement.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The wicked shepherds care only for themselves....for the money, the power, the prestige...and not for the body of Christ. Jesus was physically laid in the rich man's tomb.....his body, the church, lies also in the "grave" where there is no knowledge.... in "death"....among those who only care for worldly things...who care for the affairs of man....the church has the wicked in it.....the tares and the wheat have grown up together:

(Isa 53:9 KJV) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Only Jesus is the perfect, upright one. We all have sinned...and yet he intercedes for his bruised body....Satan only struck his heel. Jesus will "see his seed".....his church (his body) will be resurrected from its present form of "death."

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Jesus will see the conclusion of the church's troubles and tribulation....by Jesus' knowledge will we know him and our condition....he will atone for our sins of going astray. We will have knowledge of the holy again.

(Isa 53:11 KJV) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

He was numbered with the trangressors.....on the cross.....and also TODAY. We are the transgressors....we are the sheep (his body) who have gone astray.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

His church is to "resurrect"....to awaken....to be revived...so that we may shine forth in the kingdom...so that the whole world will know God. We return back to God.

Hosea 6:
6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

The church will "resurrect:"

Ezekiel 37: 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

And again....not the physical grave but the spiritual grave that the church is presently in:

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

The "grave" is the lack of knowledge....when the Lord opens the grave....we gain knowledge of the Holy....we shall KNOW:

(Ezek 37:13 KJV) And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

We are to "AWAKEN" to our present condition and "ARISE"....we have been captives:

52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion

The similarities between Peter's events of his life and the church:

Peter:
Given the keys of the kingdom of heaven

The church:
also given the keys of the kingdom of heaven:

Matthew 18: 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Peter: Peter was put into prison.

Acts12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)
4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

Church: it is also in prison

(Rev 2:10 KJV) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Peter: wasn't concerned at one point about God's plans....but those of men:

(Mat 16:23 KJV) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Church: many are concerned with the affairs of men. Many have bowed down to the works of their own hands. They are like Martha who was busy in the preparation of things rather than sitting at the feet of Jesus listening to his voice.

Peter: denied the Lord...3 times

Church: there are those who have denied the Lord by their actions....there are 3 groups of people in the churches in Revelation who hadn't denied the Lord's name....meaning the others have done so.

Peter: for denying the Lord, Jesus gave the kind of death he would suffer:

(John 21:18 KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Church: it would also suffer a similar "death":

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Wheeler

25th October 2007, 05:49 AM

As mentioned before, Peter's kind of death was a type for the "death" that the church would endure:

John 21: 18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

As Paul stated.....that others would come into the flock and lead others away from the truth....this is the "death":

Acts 20: 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

But as the church has experienced a "death", there was a core group (the very elect) who would not be deceived.

(Mat 24:24 KJV) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The Lord had this mysterious disciple, who is John, who was always mentioned as the "disciple whom Jesus loved." John is symbolic of the very elect who was kept alive while the church suffered a "death." This is shown in JOHN:

John 21:20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

The beloved group who would be kept from the hour of temptation.....the church in "Philadelphia" which means "love of brother." The hour of temptation is the hour of the trial of the church by Satan....his power is only mentioned as being an hour...a short time. Satan has put the church in prison to test it.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

They of the synagogue of Satan will know that the Lord has loved them.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

They have kept the word of his patience....they have kept the word. They have kept wisdom. As Jesus was on the cross, he said a seemingly strange thing to his beloved disciple and to his mother:

In JOHN 19:
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

The disciple whom he loved are those who have kept the word of the Lord through the trial of the church by Satan....they have little strength because of the hour of trial over much of the body. But they have wisdom......this was signified when Jesus said to them: "....Woman, behold thy son" and "Behold thy mother." The "mother" being "wisdom":

(Luke 7:35 KJV) But wisdom is justified of all her children.

HEAR and KEEP God's commandment and FORSAKE NOT the law of they MOTHER.....WISDOM.

(Prov 1:8 KJV) My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:

(Prov 6:20 KJV) My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother:

Proverbs 4: 3 For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother.
4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.

(Prov 10:1 KJV) The proverbs of Solomon. A wise son maketh a glad father: but a foolish son is the heaviness of his mother.

Proverbs 15: 20 A wise son maketh a glad father: but a foolish man despiseth his mother.
21 Folly is joy to him that is destitute of wisdom: but a man of understanding walketh uprightly.

Proverbs 19: 26 He that wasteth his father, and chaseth away his mother, is a son that causeth shame, and bringeth reproach.
27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

Whoever has cursed God or wisdom....the knowledge of the holy is put out.....and is left in darkness:

(Prov 20:20 KJV) Whoso curseth his father or his mother, his lamp shall be put out in obscure darkness.

(Lev 20:9 KJV) For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

We are to buy the Truth and NOT SELL it:

(Prov 23:23 KJV) Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

The foolish virgins let their lamps go out......they were told to go to those who have SOLD the truth....which they have no knowledge:

Matthew 25: 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Wheeler

26th October 2007, 05:55 AM

When Jesus told his mother and beloved disciple"behold, thy son.......behold thy mother.", he was signifiying that there would be a core group of people that would hold onto the wisdom of God (thy mother) during the time that the church would be in "death".....in "hades"....the place of no knowledge, no wisdom. John, the beloved disciple, "took her unto his home" ..... The church in Philadelphia kept the word and the word of his patience during the trial of the church by Satan.

John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Here are symbolic connections:

Joseph is a type for Christ. Joseph was taken....thrown in a pit and sold as a slave by his brothers. Jesus was taken and crucified also by his brothers (as the plan of God).

Benjamin is a type for the beloved disciple, John. And the beloved disciple is a type for all those of the church in Philadelphia.....the "love of brother." Benjamin is the younger brother of Joseph...the only brother of his mother.....Rachel.

Rachel is a type for wisdom.

The name "John" means "God is gracious".....God shows mercy, favor, etc. Since John is referred to as the disciple whom Jesus loved, we can view Benjamin being the type for the church in Philadelphia. As shown by Moses' blessing upon his approaching death:

(Deu 33:12 KJV) And of Benjamin he said, The beloved of the LORD shall dwell in safety by him; and the LORD shall cover him all the day long, and he shall dwell between his shoulders.

Benjamin "....the beloved of the Lord..." = John, the beloved of Jesus = the church in Philadelphia "the love of brother"= all those throughout the church history who did not fall into the trial of the church by Satan. For Moses blessed Benjamin by stating that he "shall dwell in safety by him; and the LORD shall cover him all the day long, and he shall dwell between his shoulders."

John, the beloved of Jesus, was shown leaning on Jesus' bosom.....part of Moses' blessing of Benjamin says he ".... and he shall dwell between his shoulders."

(John 13:23 KJV) Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

This is a place of safety in Christ. The church in Philadelphia was kept from the hour of the trial by Satan:

(Rev 3:10 KJV) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

"Benjamin" means "son of the right hand".....when Jesus came to show John the revelation, he placed his right hand on him....further showing that Benjamin = John= the church in Philadelphia:

Revelation 1: 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

When Benjamin was born, Rachel died and she first named him "Benoni".....which means "son of my sorrow." Benjamin = the church in Philadelphia....the only group of people who have kept wisdom throughout the trial of the church by Satan....the "death. It is the "sorrow" of wisdom that the church has not listened to her.....she is personified as a mother in Proverbs.
Genesis 35: 16 And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was but a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour.
17 And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.
18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.

As Rachel died and was buried in the way to Ephrath.....wisdom "died" to those of the Christian church.....which is typified by "Ephrath." Wisdom can no longer be found in most of the church....it is the time of her "sorrow." Her, Rachel"s.....Wisdom's, voice was heard in "Ramah"....which means a "high place"....especially in the seat of idolatry of the enemy that has been ruling over the church. No one listens to Wisdom....for she is a mother.....she laments and weeps for those of the church to embrace her:

Jeremiah 31:
15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

But the Lord promises that the church will be redeemed from the land of the enemy...they will come back to the Wisdom of God.....her work will be rewarded:

16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.

During this time of crises in the church, Jesus has shown favor to the church in Philadelphia....just as Joseph showed to Benjamin:

(Gen 45:22 KJV) To all of them he gave each man changes of raiment; but to Benjamin he gave three hundred pieces of silver, and five changes of raiment.

The church has been "dead"....in the grave....the church in Philadelphia has been kept alive:

John 21: 21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

No man has been able to "work" because of the current condition of the church....for it has been "dead" and in the grave...a place of "no knowledge":

(Eccl 9:10 KJV) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

IT IS THE NIGHT OF THE CHURCH.....WHERE NO MAN WORKS:

(John 9:4 KJV) I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

(James 2:20 KJV) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

IisJustMe

26th October 2007, 09:02 AM

I offer this in love, as I've offered it to others who have the same practice. No one reads multiple lengthy posts like these. You have some good insight in places, and in other places you get far too complex with what are essentially simple and straightforward truths.

The bottom line is, who do you post for? If for others, you need to give things in small bites for them to digest, not overwhelm them with more information than they can absorb.

If for you, stop. Its prideful, and harmful to your witness.

Wheeler

27th October 2007, 12:03 PM

Dear Mike,

Thank you for your sincere thoughts. I seek first the kingdom of God. I post for any one who would "hear." Yes, I realize these are long posts...but I am excited for what the Scripture of Truth says and feel I can't hold back...it is a fire within my bones. If people tune me out, that is okay.....if one person just considers what is said or understands, I am happy. In doing these studies, I learn more myself.....I certainly don't know it all....definitely. But I find this truth, the more I put out there for others to see, the more I learn from the voice of the Lord:

Mark 4: 24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

I am not here to gather a following.....I'm a nobody....I'm content to be a nobody. I have no position of power or glory in the church nor the world. If the things I say are not of the Spirit of Truth, then nothing will come of it....no need to worry. I have leaned upon my own understanding and will suffer accordingly. I see that you have weapons of war......the sword in hand and the attack helicopter.... if we speak what we hear the Spirit says, then we are as a "rod of iron" or as a "battle ax"..... God's weapons of war.

I am not here for pride....I have been a sinner, a trangressor....resisting the Spirit. But God is merciful to us and forgives....He is truly a loving God who has planned ALL things and His Word is done. I also say these things in love....to you Mike, my brother in Christ....you will understand all things shortly.... as we all will...for nothing is hidden that will not be disclosed....the Scripture of Truth shines forth its hidden knowledge through the Spirit of Truth.

As far as curtailing my posts....I will.... if you can correctly answer my questions....a riddle. Here they are: "what is to be mild? What is it that is nothing to worry about?"

Sincerely, your brother in Christ,

Wheeler

(Psa 49:4 KJV) I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.

150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

IisJustMe

27th October 2007, 12:34 PM

I understand completely, brother, and I support your zeal and your fire for the Lord 100%. I just want you to give God the service He desires from you in such a way that it edifies others, and doesn't turn them off.

In answers to your riddles:
Being mild is to be gentle in spirit, accepting of God's dealings with us no matter how harshly or unfairly they may appear, because God is never either harsh or unfair. The "mild" know that they may rely on God to deal with harshness and unfairness, and that He allows the wounds that may be inflicted in order to purify us and instruct us in trust and surrender to Him.
The thing we need not fear is the destruction of the body, because it is just a shell for that which, if it has been surrendered to God based on His own sacrifice of His Son for us, is wholly owned and possessed by God, and we know that the destruction of the flesh is to be called home to our Creator God.

There is reasoning behind my previous post to you, and I am grateful you responded as you have, as in my review of it, you could have easily come back at me in anger, as it was rather blunt. But I want to compare what you post to street preaching. Many street preachers give fantastic messages -- but very few passersby listen. Those that need to hear will obviously receive, because the Holy Spirit will lead them. But too many dismiss them because they regard them as lunatics, men and women who can't be good preachers because they aren't in a church. They are not the "nobodies" many dismiss them to be.

You have said, "I am a nobody" but that isn't true, either. You are a child of God, and had you been the only one in need of Jesus' death on the cross, He still would have died for you. That makes you much more important than a nobody, and God gifts all His children to be His image on earth in His physical absence.

To avoid the same kind of rejection those street preachers face every day, and that you invite upon yourself in saying you are a "nobody", I just urge you to pray and ask God what He would have you put out there for the body to digest. A full seven-course meal placed before a man dying of hunger may kill him with overload. The first step is to give him a bread crumb, and then gradually build up to his fulfillment that will save and sustain him.

God bless you, brother, and never lose this fire, this zeal for His word. But be gentle with the masses so they will stop, read, and be edified.

Your brother in Christ,
Mike

Tavita

27th October 2007, 01:07 PM

Hi Mike,

I'll probably get into trouble for posting in here but I'd just like to share that I like Wheeler's posts a great deal. Not only do I read them I save them to my computer. I know they're rather long, but they are full of meat. There are some who do read the longer posts and I do get your point that many people won't stop to read them.

Just like the street preachers, Jesus spent a great deal of time teaching the multitudes. The trouble with street preaching is that it's to people who are already on the move and usually don't have time to stop and listen.

I do get your point though. Maybe too we could just accept that there will be some, a minority, who like to post and read the longer posts if they feel it's worthwhile. When Wheeler posts I don't get bored because it's long, when some others post I give up quarter of the way through.

Tavs

Jeffwo

27th October 2007, 03:34 PM

EDIT: Sorry...I was wrong to say what I did. I just went and re-read the rules. This brother was right to post a long teaching post.

I. PREAMBLE

First and foremost all Glory goes to God.Our goal is to produced an atmosphere where Christians can grow and learn and teach the Word of God....

Please accept my apologies.

IisJustMe

27th October 2007, 05:09 PM

Just like the street preachers, Jesus spent a great deal of time teaching the multitudes. The trouble with street preaching is that it's to people who are already on the move and usually don't have time to stop and listen.Jesus wasn't a street preacher. He drew the multitudes to Him because "He taught as One with authority." He didn't have to hope they stopped and listened on the way to the Galilean stock market or the camel auction in Capernaum. They deliberately sought Him out, because they knew He bore the truth. Street preachers aren't Jesus, so the passersby don't have that kind of assurance about their authority.

Tavita

27th October 2007, 05:16 PM

Jesus wasn't a street preacher. He drew the multitudes to Him because "He taught as One with authority." He didn't have to hope they stopped and listened on the way to the Galilean stock market or the camel auction in Capernaum. They deliberately sought Him out, because they knew He bore the truth. Street preachers aren't Jesus, so the passersby don't have that kind of assurance about their authority.

Yes, that's true. Good post .. :thumbsup:

Keep up the good work, Wheeler!

Be encouraged, your work is appreciated. :wave:

IisJustMe

27th October 2007, 06:24 PM

Yes, that's true. Good post .. :thumbsup:Thank you! :wave:

Keep up the good work, Wheeler! Be encouraged, your work is appreciated. :wave:Amen! ^_^ Good stuff indeed.

Tavita

27th October 2007, 06:33 PM

I started reading the "novel" but I disagreed with the first 2 points so I guess I will save myself the time and effort to finish reading it.

Where is it written that Peter represents the "church"? The "church" is the body of Christ

That is a long stretch of the imagination to say that Rev. 2:10 is talking about the church

Why post 50 or 75 points before they can be considered for discussion?

I don't dispute that our enemy, "the devil" desires to sift us but let's be biblical with our conversation of the issue.

I'd just like to say that Wheeler doesn't think Peter IS or 'represents' the Church, he 'likens' Peter to the Church. Peter, in his mind, is like an analogy of the Church and her relationship with the Lord. It's not like it's an RCC way of looking at it.

Wheeler has been posting these over the last couple of months, it seems, and myself and a couple of others have been reading from the start, so it doesn't seem such a gigantic task to us.

Svt4Him

27th October 2007, 06:43 PM

I'd just like to say that Wheeler doesn't think Peter IS or 'represents' the Church, he 'likens' Peter to the Church. Peter, in his mind, is like an analogy of the Church and her relationship with the Lord. It's not like it's an RCC way of looking at it.

Wheeler has been posting these over the last couple of months, it seems, and myself and a couple of others have been reading from the start, so it doesn't seem such a gigantic task to us.

Have to disagree, as you can see by this quote, he is substituting Peter and the Church, which is adding a whole bunch to the church that isn't there.

As mentioned before, Peter's kind of death was a type for the "death" that the church would endure:

Tavita

27th October 2007, 07:50 PM

Have to disagree, as you can see by this quote, he is substituting Peter and the Church, which is adding a whole bunch to the church that isn't there.

I'm sorry I can't disagree back. I shared my opinion and that's all I can say... I'm not a member and not suppose to debate. So I will leave this forum now....

Wheeler

29th October 2007, 06:34 AM

To those who love and speak the Truth.....do not be surprised when our own brothers get angry at us when we speak to others concerning the Scripture of Truth. They are like Eliab, the eldest brother to David. They will ask you "why do you come here"......"why do you say these things?" They think it is because of your own pride that you speak the words to others....they think it is from the wickedness of your own heart:

1 Samuel 17:28 And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and the naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle.
29 And David said, What have I now done? Is there not a cause?

Is there not a reason? Is there not the Lord's business to attend to? Are we not to contend for the faith, Eliab, my brothers in Christ?

The Lord comes to battle Goliath, the Philistine of Gath. "Goliath" means "exile"....which comes from "galah".....which means "to reveal." Hence, we get the man of sin who is revealed.....whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth (his words) and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (his truth). Golath comes from the city of "Gath".....which means "winepress".....in the sense of treading out grapes. The Lord comes with the Truth....the Truth is revealed by the Spirit of Truth....to tread the winepress:

Revelation 19: 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

(1 Sam 17:32 KJV) And David said to Saul, Let no man's heart fail because of him; thy servant will go and fight with this Philistine.

I'm trying to be brief.....and I really appreciate anyone who just "considers" what is said and to search the Scriptures for themselves to see if these things are so.

bluemarkus

29th October 2007, 06:49 AM

when your own family turns against you, it is one of the hardest trials.
you won´t understand what in the world is going on. but its just like this, we have been born into a family, but when we grow into our spiritual destiny everything else has to be secondary.

Wheeler

30th October 2007, 06:21 AM

Who is in the streets crying out like a street preacher? Who is out there uttering her words to those who who do not listen? Why.......Wisdom of course!

Proverbs 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

IisJustMe

30th October 2007, 09:24 AM

Who is in the streets crying out like a street preacher? [my emphasis added ... Wheeler, you're all right!] Who is out there uttering her words to those who who do not listen? Why.......Wisdom of course!

Proverbs 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Y82w_9NtzpnNxM:www.bigmouthmedia.com.au/smiley%20large%20%28transparent%29.png

Good stuff, Wheeler, good stuff. :thumbsup:

Wheeler

30th October 2007, 08:40 PM

Thanks Mike, I appreciate that.

Wheeler

30th October 2007, 08:46 PM

When the Scriptures finally "open up" the hidden knowledge.... the Truth is revealed, a person can either accept the truth (love it) or reject it. When God calls and speaks to us through His Truth, there are people who will not respond.....they are people in the church. These people will choose to stay in "darkness" because they love their own unrighteous works more. So God will choose their delusion:

(Isa 66:4 KJV) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

This is mirrored in Thessalonians....they receive not the love of the truth when it is finally revealed:

(2 Th 2:10 KJV) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

"....that they might be saved..." meaning that they may be delivered from their current condition of the church...it's "death" state.....its lack of knowledge (in the shadow of death)...its lack of wisdom...its lack of righteous works. Those who reject the truth (in the church)...reject their own mercy:

(Jonah 2:8 KJV) They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

The Lord comes to atone for the church's sins....the Day of Atonement. He shows us mercy and forgiveness. He shows us through the truth His judgments.......we have been judged by those who care not for the church....we have been in the "grave"....in the "shadow of death"....where there has been no knowledge or wisdom (no spiritual food or drink). We wake up to what we have been through....it is a revelation. We repent and leave those dead works of the past....we return to God......we resurrect as a church. It is the "restitution of all things".....

(Acts 3:21 KJV) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

It is the restoration of health and organization to the church.....to the body of Christ ....that has been "sick" so to speak:

Psalms 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed.
3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long?
4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
6 I am weary with my groaning; all the night make I my bed to swim; I water my couch with my tears.
7 Mine eye is consumed because of grief; it waxeth old because of all mine enemies.
8 Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.

It is the "workers of iniquity" in the church that are the cause for his body's condition. This is why Jesus tells the goats to "depart" from him....they have not taken care of the body of Christ:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Only after then can the righteous shine in the kingdom of heaven.