The Ottoman Thread

[Futuwwa]

At times, people accuse me of being a troll because of my avatar. Which puts me in a situation where I'm damned whatever I do. If I don't answer the accusation, I implicitly concede the point. If I do, debate about the Ottomans is inevitable, and I'm not allowed to debate in the main section per TAW rules.

Therefore, I start this thread. Now, tell me, what's so evil about Suleyman I?

[nikostheater]

Well,except that he is responsible for many wars and he tried to conquer the rest of europe?

[EmperorConstantine]

Where do I begin...

[Futuwwa]

nikos, I kind of meant, what did he do to the Orthodox which makes him worthy of your animosity?

Emperor Constantine, feel free to begin wherever you like.

[Greg the byzantine]

Let's face it the Ottoman Empire was responsible for the opression of Orthodox Christians in the Balkans, Asia Minor, and Middle East for a long period of time. Any reference to the Ottoman Empire brings up issue of Ottoman opression.

[Futuwwa]

I'd say "oppression" is a too vague term. Care to be more specific?

Nice avatar. You must hate me quite infernally if you want to dedicate your whole avatar to it rather than to yourself. Or did someone rent the space from you?

[Greg the byzantine]

I'd say "oppression" is a too vague term. Care to be more specific?

Nice avatar. You must hate me quite infernally if you want to dedicate your whole avatar to it rather than to yourself. Or did someone rent the space from you?

Opression is actually the perfect word. Here are just a few examples:

1)As non-muslims they were subject to very high taxes. They were not able to gain status, and were forced to live their lives as serfs working the land which was owned by Turkish Pasha.

2)Christian children were denied the right to go to school. Any person openly teaching christians was executed and their schools were properly destroyed. Books except for the bible and ecclestiastical books were forbidden to non-muslims.

3)Devsherime and the janissieries. The forced taxation of human life, by taking young christian boys to be forced to convert to Islam and serve the Sultan. They often became the authorities who collected taxes, punished those who were in debt (usually by torture or hanging).

4)When a Pasha or any other Turkish noble saw a beautiful young christian maiden he would often kidnap her and add her to his harem, or rape her on the spot.

5) Christians were not allowed to ride horses. This limited their ability to travel and trade, also making it much harder to communicate and spread news.


These are only a few examples. There are many more.

PS. I don't hate you per say. I hate your obsession with the ottomans. And no nobody rented the space it is mine to do what I want with.

[Zealous Zeth]

+ that this Moslem Third Reich destroyed the by all Orthodox and many other Christians beloved Holy Empire of Byzantium, the Light of the Middle ages, a Just and fair Empire who's rulers where the by God blessed succesors of Saint Empereror Constantine I. They defiled Haga Sofia and killed the Holy Emperor, the martyr and Holy saint Emperor Constantine XI Palaiologos.

And we all pray for the day when Noble Christians throw the Hunnic invaders out from our Holy City with weapons in their hands! :mad:

[Futuwwa]

Greg,

As for 1, higher taxes than Muslims perhaps, but still lower taxes than Christian countries typically charged of their subjects. And there's a reason for the taxation too, those Christians who weren't among the few to be recruited into the janissary corps were exempt from military service. And as for not being able to gain status, ever heard of the Phanariot Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phanariot)? Their prominence in Ottoman imperial adminstration and poltical life was greater than that of most Muslim subjects of the Empire even. I mean, what the hell, several Grand Viziers were of Greek origin, how can one say that Christians had no chance of achieving status considering that?

As for 2 and 5, I have a hard time imagining Phanariotes doing their job if illiterate and forbidden to ride.

I won't contest point 3, since nothing I will say will change your opinion on it. However, you are exaggerating things. It's indoctrination, not forced conversion. In the very young age in which boys were conscripted to the janissary corps, one might have a basic sense of spirituality at most, but it's not like a little toddler like that has made any conscious decision to choose Christianity over Islam.

As for 4, I'm sure it happened to some degree, but what sets the Ottomans apart in this regard? In every system where men are endowed with power, that power corrupts, and some men will use that power to extort sex from women. Are you claiming that nobles and officials of other countries did not do this? Have you ever wondered why so many secretaries in the corporate world are female?

[Futuwwa]

And as for the crusaderboy

Muslim Third Reich, heh heh heh. I suppose you think the janissaries goose-stepped at parades too.

Now you tell me what was so just and fair about the Byzantine Empire. As far as I'm concerned it was a theocratic pitbull which used its military might to suppress heresies and forcibly further Orthodoxy - it even invaded Arabia in an attempt to snuff out Islam. Personally I'm glad that the heroes of jihad brought it down so Islam could be spread in its lands.

[Zealous Zeth]

Muslim Third Reich, heh heh heh. I suppose you think the janissaries goose-stepped at parades too.The janissaries served an evil regime and a false prophet. Tell me, does not your false prophet teach you that you should treat the followers of Prophet Isa as they where Moslems themselves? Because they where not in the mounitan of blood called the Ottoman Empire. The followers of the True Faith, the members of our Greek sister church where threated as second class people. And you infidel scum will pay for that someday.

HOW DARE YOU TO CALL BYZANTIUM A "PITBULL"!!!??? It was Gods Empire on Earth. When The Holy Father was strugeling with civilising the ruthless barbaric empire of the of the Francs, this wonderfull empire flourished. I would like to live there. The priests took care of the poor, torture was never used, they had wellfare such as child allowance, the emperor was blessed by God. They did right in destroying the Monofysite heresy (not miaphysites). And they where very tolerant, not only to catholics who had the same rights as Greek Christians, but also to Jews and Moslems. One of the reasons that Constantinople was sacked 1204 was because of the corrupted (and by the Holy Father excommunicated) "crusaders" began to destry mosques, the citizens did not want their religious freedom gone.

When did the Byzantines invade Arabia? It was you who invaded the Holy Land. And those "heroes of jihad" are suerly in hell now, they will forever suffer for their evil acts against The True Faith.

I am suprised that you are Finnish...

[Futuwwa]

Surprised? If it interests you, I'm ethnically half-Swedish. Finlandssvensk.

If the Byzantine Empire was so religiously tolerant, why did the Jews of Palestine revolt to side with the Sassanids in 614-15? Why did the Ghassanian (monophysite) contingent switch sides during the Battle of Yarmuk in 636, favouring the Muslim side? The Byzantine Empire might have lightened up a bit after falling from power, but it certainly did a great share of religious persecution when it was on the height of its power and could afford doing so.

The Byzantine Church took care of the poor. Well, which Church didn't do stuff like that? It's easy to do that when you're a lot richer than the backwards Western Europeans which you seem to use as measuring stick. The comparably wealthy Islamic states of the Middle East did also that, and funded public works too.

The Byzantines invaded Arabia during Muhammed's lifetime. Their Ghassanian Arab vassals had declared war on Muhammed by executing his envoy. The Byzantine Emperor, unimpressed by Muhammed's invitation to Islam, sided with his vassal and invaded.

[Greg the byzantine]

Greg,

As for 1, higher taxes than Muslims perhaps, but still lower taxes than Christian countries typically charged of their subjects. And there's a reason for the taxation too, those Christians who weren't among the few to be recruited into the janissary corps were exempt from military service. And as for not being able to gain status, ever heard of the Phanariot Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phanariot)? Their prominence in Ottoman imperial adminstration and poltical life was greater than that of most Muslim subjects of the Empire even. I mean, what the hell, several Grand Viziers were of Greek origin, how can one say that Christians had no chance of achieving status considering that?

As for 2 and 5, I have a hard time imagining Phanariotes doing their job if illiterate and forbidden to ride.

I won't contest point 3, since nothing I will say will change your opinion on it. However, you are exaggerating things. It's indoctrination, not forced conversion. In the very young age in which boys were conscripted to the janissary corps, one might have a basic sense of spirituality at most, but it's not like a little toddler like that has made any conscious decision to choose Christianity over Islam.

As for 4, I'm sure it happened to some degree, but what sets the Ottomans apart in this regard? In every system where men are endowed with power, that power corrupts, and some men will use that power to extort sex from women. Are you claiming that nobles and officials of other countries did not do this? Have you ever wondered why so many secretaries in the corporate world are female?

You know better than I do that the phanariotes were an extremely small group consisting of a few families in the phanar area of constantinople. They were valuable to the sultan because they were overglorified translators. You can't use them as an example because they were an extremely tiny minority. The rest of the Greeks were denied access to education, and you can't deny that can you?

Can you deny that those conscripted (even if as you claim, without proof might I add, they were coereced and not forced)might I addinto the janissary force were taken against their will? No you can not!

[Greg the byzantine]

Did the Ottomans treat the Greeks (As a whole) equal to their muslim subjects.

They did not treat them equally. When you extend less rights to a group of people under your rule, you are treating them as inferior. It's opressive. Not even you would be so bold as to say that the Greeks as an entire entity were given equal rights as muslims under the ottoman empire.

[Lukaris]

Ahh the chicken or egg questions of ancient history trying to isolate those bad Byzantines. How about more modern history that truly bears the fruition of Ottoman expansionism? http://www.feldgrau.com/13ss.html

[Futuwwa]

You know better than I do that the phanariotes were an extremely small group consisting of a few families in the phanar area of constantinople. They were valuable to the sultan because they were overglorified translators. You can't use them as an example because they were an extremely tiny minority. The rest of the Greeks were denied access to education, and you can't deny that can you?

Well, the Phanariotes were just the first to come into my mind. However, were they a millet of their own? No. So apparently there was no universal law prohibiting education for the Greek millet.

The Greeks of western Asia Minor were quite well integrated into the Empire too, owning and directing its merchant fleet. Sounds rather improbable that they could have done that if illiterate, uneducated and unable to travel.

Where did you get this thing about Christians being universally forbidden education and travel? When exactly did it happen, and to what extent? Considering everything, it just seems a bit fishy to me.

Can you deny that those conscripted (even if as you claim, without proof might I add, they were coereced and not forced)might I addinto the janissary force were taken against their will? No you can not!

No, of course not. That's the very essence of conscription - mandatory military service. Which wasn't unique to the Ottomans. Forcibly conscripting people to fill out the armed forces in times of need was extremely common among all great powers of the time. Ottoman janissaries were crack troops and better taken care of than the conscripts of other armies, which were line-infantry at best and cannon fodder at worst.

[Thekla]

Ottoman janissaries were crack troops and better taken care of than the conscripts of other armies, which were line-infantry at best and cannon fodder at worst.

you seem to have forgotten Napolean and the French troops ...

[Thekla]

concerning the education issue; even into the third quarter of the 19th century, some schools (because of border incursions/raids) were conducted in hiding (ex., caves).

Women were captured and taken to the harems.

Within Turkey, the oppression of Christians was directed at the Greek Orthodox and Armenians; the Protestants were not much disturbed (if my impression from family stories is correct).

At Anatolia College , Marsovan (founded by US Protestant Christians), IIRC only the Armenian students and faculty were executed -- but I guess thats not really an educational issue...

it is a matter of legacy.

[Komnenos]

Whats so bad about the Ottomans?

1. They destroyed and converted many Churches to Islam.
2. They turned Greek and other Orthodox children into little Turks.
3. They destroyed countless Icons and other cultural material.
4. They were responsible for the deaths of MILLIONS of Orthodox Christians and Arab Muslims.
5. "Heroes of Jihad" huh? These 'heroes' as you all them destroyed Assyrian, and Greek Culture in the Holy lands.
6. As others have said. Taking Christian girls (some as young as 6) to be in their Harems.

In conclusion, the Ottomans were one of the most brutal regimes ever to exist in South Eastern Europe. They restricted minorities to the status of illiterate Serfs reminiscent of 8th and 9th century feudalism. The Byzantine Empire which had led the World in technology and Arts and trade had its people (Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians) reduced to uneducated peasants. A true shame.

[Philothei]

Whats so bad about the Ottomans?

1. They destroyed and converted many Churches to Islam.
2. They turned Greek and other Orthodox children into little Turks.
3. They destroyed countless Icons and other cultural material.
4. They were responsible for the deaths of MILLIONS of Orthodox Christians and Arab Muslims.
5. "Heroes of Jihad" huh? These 'heroes' as you all them destroyed Assyrian, and Greek Culture in the Holy lands.
6. As others have said. Taking Christian girls (some as young as 6) to be in their Harems.

In conclusion, the Ottomans were one of the most brutal regimes ever to exist in South Eastern Europe. They restricted minorities to the status of illiterate Serfs reminiscent of 8th and 9th century feudalism. The Byzantine Empire which had led the World in technology and Arts and trade had its people (Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians) reduced to uneducated peasants. A true shame.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Komnenos again.

[RobNJ]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Komnenos again.


Gotchya covered!

[Greg the byzantine]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Komnenos again.

done

[Futuwwa]

Hmph. You all keep talking about how the Turks forced the conquered peoples into illteracy. Could someone answer my question: When did this happen, and what was supposedly its extent? I have never heard about this before, and considering that prominent posts in Ottoman society were at times held by Greeks gives me reason to doubt what you say.

[Philothei]

If you put your sword down like me....lol... (look at my character) maybe we could discuss it....:)

[Futuwwa]

Ok :)

[Futuwwa]

Well?

[Philothei]

For the beginning this is a historical account of the seige of Constantinople by the Ottomans.... this is the site you can look around and read more information.

http://www.greece.org/Romiosini/fall.html


At the beginning of 1453 the Sultan's army began massing on the plain of Adrianople. Troops came from every region of the Empire. Possibly well over 150.000 men, including thousands of irregulars, from many nationalities, who were attracted by the prospect of looting, were ready to assault the city. The regular troops were well equipped and well trained. The elite corps of the Janissaries composed of abducted Christian children, forcibly converted to Islam, and subsequently trained as professional soldiers, constituted the spear-head of the Ottoman army. The besieging army included a number of artillery pieces, of which one, facing the Military Gate of St Romanus, was particularly huge and was expected to cause heavy damage to the walls in that area. The army, accompanied by crowds of fanatic Dervishes, started moving slowly towards Constantinople. A few small towns, still in Greek hands, near the capital were soon occupied by the Sultan's army. Of those towns Selymvria resisted longer.
During the first week of April the Ottoman troops began taking their assigned positions in front of the city walls. The Sultan had his tent installed north of the civil Gate of St Romanus, near the river Lycus, facing the 5th Military Gate, also known as Military Gate of St Romanus. He ordered the big canon to be installed in the same area. To protect the troops, a protective trench was opened in front of the Ottoman units, the earth from it was accumulated on the city side and on top of it was erected a palissade. On the 12th arrived from Gallipoli the Ottoman fleet. Composed of approximately 200 ships of various sizes and displacements, it sealed the Byzantine capital from the sea. Mehmed's admiral was the Bulgarian renegade Suleiman Baltoghlu. On his side the Emperor distributed his troops as best as he could. It was impossible, with the available garrison, to cover the entire walled circumference of the capital, about fourteen miles long. However, it was clear to all that the main attack would be delivered by the enemy along the land-walls, about four miles long. With the exception of the Blachernae section of the walls, at the north-eastern end of the land side, the city was protected, on the land side, by a triple wall, with a deep foss in front of it. On the sea side, including the Golden Horn port area, the city was protected by a single wall.
Given the availability of troops and the critical sections of the walls, Giustiniani, with most of his men, as well as the Emperor and his best troops, took position in the Military St Romanus's Gate sector, where heavy damage was expected to be inflicted by the canon and the main Ottoman assault to be launched. The Venetian Bailo (the Head of the Venetian Community at Constantinople) Girolamo Minotto and his countrymen were charged with the defence of the region of Blachernae, where the Imperial Palace was located. Minotto and his men faced the European troops of Karadja Pasha. Across the Golden Horn, to the left of Pera, ready to intervene, stood the troops of Zaganos Pasha. Along the southern section of the land-walls the defenders faced the Anatolian troops under the command of Ishak Pasha. The Grand Duke Luke Notaras, with a reserve unit took position near the walls, at the Petra neighborhood, in the north-eastern section of the city. Another reserve unit was stationed near the church of the Holy Apostles, near the center of the city. Most units were positioned on and behind the land-walls. The sea-walls were thinly manned. To protect the entrance to the port the Venetian commander of the small fleet of the defenders, Alviso Diedo, ordered ten ships to take position behind the chain.
According to Islamic tradition the Sultan, before the beginning of hostilities, demanded the surrender of the city, promising to spare the lives of its inhabitants and respect their property. In a proud and dignified reply the Emperor rejected Mehmed's demand. Almost immediately the Ottoman guns began firing. The continuous bombardment soon brought down a section of the walls near the Gate of Charisius, north of the Emperor's position. When night fell, everyone, who was available, rushed to repair the damage. Meanwhile Ottoman troops were trying to fill the foss, particularly in areas in front of the weak sections of the walls which were now constantly bombarded. Other units began attempts to mine weak sections of the wall. On the port area a first attempt by the Ottoman fleet to test the defenders' reaction failed.
Until the end of the siege the Ottoman guns did not stop pounding the walls. Heavy damage was inflicted. The defenders did their best to limit it. They hanged bales of wool, sheets of leather. Nothing could help. The section of the walls in the Lycus valley, near the Emperor's position, was heavily damaged. The foss in front of it was almost filled by the besiegers. Behind it, the defenders erected a stockade, Night after night men and women came from the city to repair the damaged sections.
The first assault was launched during the night of April 18. Thousands of men attacked the stockade and attempted to burn it down. Giustiniani, his men, and their Greek comrades fought valiantly. Well armed, protected by armor, fighting in a restricted area, they succeeded after four hours of bloody struggle to repulse the enemy.
On Friday, 20 April, in the morning, appeared in the sea of Marmora, near Constantinople, four large vessels loaded with provisions for the city. Three were Genoese and one, a big transport, was Greek. The Greek captain's name was Flantanellas. Baltoghlu dispatched immediately his fleet to attack and capture the ships. The operation seemed easy and soon the ships were surrounded by the smaller Ottoman vessels. Everyone in the city, who was not busy with the defence, rushed to the sea-walls to watch the spectacle. The Sultan on horseback, his officers and a multitude of soldiers, rushed to the shore to watch the battle. Excited and unable to restrain himself, screaming orders at Baltoghlu, the young Sultan rode into the shallow water. Fighting, the big ships continued pushing the smaller ones, and helped by the wind they were now close to the south-eastern corner of the city. Then the wind dropped and the current began pushing them towards the coast on which stood the Sultan and his troops. Fighting continued, with the Christian sailors hurling on the enemy crews stones, javelins and all sorts of projectiles, including Greek Fire. Eventually the four vessels came so close to each other that they became bound together, forming a floating castle. Around sunset the wind rose and the big ships, pushing their way through the mass, and the wrecks, of the enemy vessels, hailed by thousands of people who were standing on the walls, entered the Golden Horn. Next morning Baltoghlu was dismissed by the Sultan, who was so furious that he ordered the beheading of his admiral. The unlucky admiral was replaced by a favorite of Mehmed, Hamza Bey.
This event convinced the Sultan and his commanders that the city had to be more tightly besieged and that the naval arm of the besieged had to be neutralized. Mehmed's ingenious plan, formulated before the events of April 20, consisted in bringing part of his fleet into the Golden Horn. Indeed, thousands of laborers had been building, for some time, a road overland from the Bosphorus, alongside the walls of Pera, to a place called Valley of the Springs, on the shore of the Golden Horn, above Pera. On April 22 to the horror of the besieged a long procession of ships, sitting on wooden platforms were pulled by teams of oxen and men, over the road, into the port area. About seventy boats entered the Golden Horn. The leaders of the defence held immediately an emergency meeting. Various plans were discussed and it was finally decided to attempt to burn the enemy boats, which were in the Golden Horn. After a succession of postponments the attempt was carried out during the night of April 28. Betrayed by someone from Pera, it failed miserably. Hit by Ottoman guns the Christian ships suffered heavy damage. About forty sailors captured by the enemy were executed.
Despite this failure the situation in the Golden Horn became, more or less, stable. Superior naval training, and better naval construction, eventually prevented Hamza's ships from inflicting serious damage on the allied units. However, the Sultan's idea was a military success. Indeed, in 1204 the Crusaders had assaulted the city from the sea-walls and the Greeks had not forgotten it. They feared a repetition of that assault.
On the land side the bombardment continued, more walls collapsed, and when night fell everyone rushed to close the gap, reinforce the stockades, build here and there. Moreover, food was wanting and the authorities did their best to distribute it equally. Worse, help was not coming. Everyone was watching and waiting for the sails of the Western ships to appear coming out of the Dardanelles. In early May a fast boat was sent out, to seek the allied fleet in the Aegean and tell its commanders to hurry.
During the night of May 7 a new assault was launched against the damaged section, where Giustiniani stood. It failed again and then in the night of May 12 another came and failed. It was launched at the junction of the Blachernae wall and of the old Theodosian one. During that time mining and countermining continued. Sometimes fighting went on underground. Sometimes the tunnels collapsed and suffocated the miners.
On May 23 the boat that had been sent out to locate the Christian fleet returned to the city. Its crew brought bad news. Nothing was in sight. The defenders were alone, no help was coming. The men of the crew, obeying their duty, decided to return to the doomed city. Realizing that everything was lost Constantine's chief advisors begged him to leave the city. He could still get out and seek help. His father Manuel II had done the same in 1399, at the time of the blockade of the city by Sultan Bayazid. The Emperor refused to discuss the issue. He had already decided to stay in his capital, fight for it and perish.
Meanwhile, rumors were circulating in the Ottoman camp about the Venetians finally mobilizing their fleet, or about the Hungarians preparing to cross the Danube. The siege was going on without end in sight. The Sultan's Vizier Halil Chandarli, had strong reservations about the siege from the beginning. He was worried about western intervention and he looked upon the whole operation with anxiety. During a meeting of the Sultan's advisors, held on May 25, the Vizir told Mehmed to raise the siege. Pursuing it might bring unknown consequences to Ottoman interests. The Sultan, also depressed because of the prolongation of the operation, finally decided to launch a grand scale final assault on the city. He was supported by younger commanders like Zaganos Pasha, a Christian converted to Islam. Halil was overruled and all present decided to continue the siege.
While the artillery continued pounding the walls without interruption, preparations for the big assault, which was to take place on Tuesday 29 May, were accelerated. Material was thrown into the foss which faced the collapsed ramparts, scaling-ladders were distributed. The Magistrates of Pera were warned not to give any assistance to the besieged. The Sultan swore to distribute fairly the treasures found in the city. According to tradition the troops were free to loot and sack the city for three days. He assured his troops that success was imminent, the defenders were exhausted, some sections of the walls had collapsed. It would be a general assault, throughout the line of the land-walls, as well as in the port area. Then the troops were ordered to rest and recover their strength.
In the city everyone realized that the great moment had come. During Monday, May 28, some last repairs were done on the walls and the stockades, in the collapsed sections, were reinforced. In the city, while the bells of the churches rang mournfully, citizens and soldiers joined a long procession behind the holy relics brought out of the churches. Singing hymns in Greek, Italian or Catalan, Orthodox and Catholic, men, women, children, soldiers, civilians, clergy, monks and nuns, knowing that they were going to die shortly, made peace with themselves, with God and with eternity.
When the procession ended the Emperor met with his commanders and the notables of the city. In a philosophical speech he told his subjects that the end of their time had come. In essence he told them that Man had to be ready to face death when he had to fight for his faith, for his country, for his family or for his sovereign. All four reasons were now present. Furthermore, his subjects, who were the descendants of Greeks and Romans, had to emulate their great ancestors. They had to fight and sacrifice themselves without fear. They had lived in a great city and they were now going to die defending it. As for himself, he was going to die fighting for his faith, for his city and for his people. He also thanked the Italian soldiers, who had not abandoned the great city in its final moments. He still believed that the garrison could repulse the enemy. They all had to be brave, proud warriors and do their duty. He thanked all present for their contribution to the defence of the city and asked them to forgive him, if he had ever treated them without kindness. Meanwhile the great church of Saint Sophia was crowded. Thousands of people were moving towards the church. Inside, Orthodox and Catholic priests were holding mass. People were singing hymns, others were openly crying, others were asking each other for forgiveness. Those who were not serving on the ramparts also went to the church, among them was seen, for a brief moment, the Emperor. People confessed and took communion. Then those who were going to fight rode or walked back to the ramparts.
From the great church the Emperor rode to the Palace at Blachernae. There he asked his household to forgive him. He bade the emotionally shattered men and women farewell, left his Palace and rode away, into the night, for a last inspection of the defence positions. Then he took his battle position.


Also I will post his sources just to be fair as far as their authenticity.

[Philothei]

The assault began after midnight, into the 29th of May 1453. Wave after wave the attackers charged. Battle cries, accompanied by the sound of drums, trumpets and fifes, filled the air. The bells of the city churches began ringing frantically. Orders, screams and the sound of trumpets shattered the night. First came the irregulars, an unreliable, multinational crowd of Christians and Moslems, who were attracted by the opportunity of enriching themselves by looting the great city, the last capital of the Roman Empire. They attacked throughout the line of fortifications and they were massacred by the tough professionals, who were fighting under the orders of Giustiniani. The battle lasted two hours and the irregulars withdrew in disorder, leaving behind an unknown number of dead and wounded.
Next came the Anatolian troops of Ishak Pasha. They tried to storm the stockades. They fought tenaciously, even desperately trying to break through the compact ranks of the defenders. The narrow area in which fighting went on helped the defenders. The could hack left and right with their maces and swords and shoot missiles onto the mass of attackers without having to aim. A group of attackers crashed through a gap and for a moment it seemed that they could enter the city. The were assaulted by the Emperor and his men and were soon slain. This second attack also failed.
But now came the Janissaries, disciplined, professional, ruthless warriors, superbly trained, ready to die for their master, the Sultan. They assaulted the now exhausted defenders, they were pushing their way over bodies of dead and dying Moslem and Christian soldiers. With tremendous effort the Greek and Italian fighters were hitting back and continued repulsing the enemy. Then a group of enemy soldiers unexpectedly entered the city from a small sally-port called Kerkoporta, on the wall of Blachernae, where this wall joined the triple wall. Fighting broke near the small gate with the defenders trying to eliminate the intruders.
It was almost day now, the first light, before sunrise, when a shot fired from a calverin hit Giustiniani. The shot pierced his breastplate and he fell on the ground. Shaken by his wound and physically exhausted, his fighting spirit collapsed. Despite the pleas of the Emperor, who was fighting nearby, not to leave his post, the Genoese commander ordered his men to take him out of the battle-field. A Gate in the inner wall was opened for the group of Genoese soldiers, who were carrying their wounded commander, to come into the city. The soldiers who were fighting near the area saw the Gate open, their comrades carrying their leader crossing into the city, and they though that the defence line had been broken. They all rushed through the Gate leaving the Emperor and the Greek fighters alone between the two walls. This sudden movement did not escape the attention of the Ottoman commanders. Frantic orders were issued to the troops to concentrate their attack on the weakened position. Thousands rushed to the area. The stockade was broken. The Greeks were now squeezed by crowds of Janissaries between the stockade and the wall. More Janissaries came in and many reached the inner wall.
Meanwhile more were pouring in through the Kerkoporta, where the defenders had not been able to eliminate the first intruders. Soon the first enemy flags were seen on the walls. The Emperor and his commanders were trying frantically to rally their troops and push back the enemy. It was too late. Waves of Janissaries, followed by other regular units of the Ottoman army, were crashing throught the open Gates, mixed with fleeing and slaughtered Christian soldiers. Then the Emperor, realizing that everything was lost, removed his Imperial insignia, and followed by his cousin Theophilus Palaeologus, the Castilian Don Francisco of Toledo, and John Dalmatus, all four holding their swords, charged into the sea of the enemy soldiers, hitting left and right in a final act of defiance. They were never seen again.
Now thousands of Ottoman soldiers were pouring into the city. One after the other the city Gates were opened. The Ottoman flags began appearing on the walls, on the towers, on the Palace at Blachernae. Civilians in panic were rushing to the churches. Others locked themselves in their homes, some continued fighting in the streets, crowds of Greeks and foreigners were rushing towards the port area. The allied ships were still there and began collecting refugees. The Cretan soldiers and sailors, manning three towers near the entrance of the Golden Horn, were still fighting and had no intention of surrendering. At the end, the Ottoman commanders had to agree to a truce and let them sail away, carrying their arms.
The excesses which followed, druing the early hours of the Ottoman victory, are described in detail by eyewitnesses. They were, and unfortunately still are, a common practice, almost a ritual, among all armies capturing enemy strongholds and territory after a prolonged and violent struggle. Thus, bands of soldiers began now looting. Doors were broken, private homes were looted, their tenants were massacred. Shops in the city markets were looted. Monasteries and Convents were broken in. Their tenants were killed, nuns were raped, many, to avoid dishonor, killed themselves. Killing, raping, looting, burning, enslaving, went on and on according to tradition. The troops had to satisfy themselves. The great doors of Saint Sophia were forced open, and crowds of angry soldiers came in and fell upon the unfortunate worshippers. Pillaging and killing in the holy place went on for hours. Similar was the fate of worshippers in most churches in the city. Everything that could be taken from the splendid buildings was taken by the new masters of the Imperial capital. Icons were destroyed, precious manuscripts were lost forever. Thousands of civilians were enslaved, soldiers fought over young boys and young women. Death and enslavement did not distinguish among social classes. Nobles and peasants were treated with equal ruthlessness.
In some distant neighborhoods, especially near the sea walls in the sea of Marmora, such as Psamathia, but also in the Golden Horn at Phanar and Petrion, where local fishermen opened the Gates, while the enemy soldiers were pouring into the city from the land Gates, local magistrates negotiated successfully their surrender to Hamza Bey's officers. Their act saved the lives of their fellow citizens. Furthermore their churches were not= desecrated. Meanwhile, the crews of the Ottoman fleet abandoned their ships to rush into the city. They were worried that the land army was going to take everything. The collapse of discipline gave the Christian ships time to sail out of the Golden Horn. Venetian, Genoese and Greek ships, loaded with refugees, some of them having reached the ships swimming from the city, sailed away to freedom. On one of the Genoese vessels was Giustiniani. He was taken from the boat at Chios where he died, from his wound, a few days later.
The Sultan, with his top commanders and his guard of Janissaries, entered the city in the afternoon of the first day of occupation. Constantinople was finally his and he intended to make it the capital of his mighty Empire. He toured the ruined city. He visited Saint Sophia which he ordered to be turned into a mosque. He also ordered an end to the killing. What he saw was desolation, destruction, death in the streets, ruins, desecrated churches. It was too much. It is said that, as he rode through the streets of the former capital of the Christian Roman Empire, the city of Constantine, moved to tears he murmured: "What a city we have given over to plunder and destruction".
Selected Bibliography The present narrative describing the siege and fall of Constantinople, in 1453, is based entirely on accounts written by eyewitnesses (people who were in the city during the events) as well as on modern international scholarship. In particular see:

(1)Nicolo Barbaro, "Diary of the Siege of Constantinople, 1453", translated from the Italian by J.R. Jones, an Exposition-University Book, Exposition Press, New York, 1969. The Venetian surgeon Nicolo Barbaro was present in the city throughout the siege and witnessed the events described by him in his diary.
(2) Among recent studies, the basic reference on the subject is Sir Steven Runciman's, "The Fall Constantinople, 1453", Cambridge University Press, 1969. This work, by the British Historian, a Byzantine studies scholar, is based on an exhaustive study and analysis of existing sourse material.

Additional Referecnes:
(1) Babinger, F., "Mahomet II le Conquerant et son Temps, 1432-1481", translated from the German by H.E. del Medico, Paris, 1954.
(2) Pears ,E., "The Destruction of the Greek Empire and the story of the Capture of Constantinople" by the Turks", London, 1903.
(3) Schlumberger, G., Le siege, la prise et la sac de Constantionple en 1453", Paris, 1926.
(4) Walter, G., La ruine de Byzance", Paris, 1958.

Back to the main "Romiosini" webpage hosting this and related articles on Byzantine history (http://www.greece.org/projects/romiosini)
Dionysios Hatzopoulos
Professor of Classical and Byzantine Studies, and Chairman of Hellenic Studies Center at Dawson College, Montreal, and Lecturer at the Department of History at Universite de Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

[Philothei]

http://www.neobyzantine.org/movement/problems/index.php

and this is the genocide link which I could not paste for some reason.

Honestly, I am wondering how you have this infatuation with the Ottomans? I understand that England has been supporting and spreading lies about how great Ottomans were... but believe me they were not too great of a civilization... and I say that in all honesty not because they distroyed our country.... Byzantium... but because it is obvious that they were the most barbaric and uncivilized people. Some modern scholars have tried in vain to convience Europeans for the opposite... but in all honesty they cannot. There is way too much evidence that speaks for it self. Too many Neo-martyrs that were executed under the Ottomans in the mainland of Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia etc... all over the place. This myth of the Ottomans is a joke. Now Arabs as a civilization is much more admirable... if you do not take to account that they were mulsims. It is interesting that through my research I find out that the Ottomans talk about the ottoman Empire including the Mores.... ha! they were Arabs not Turks ... I see a lot of distrortion of the history and more credit given to the ones who did the worst attrocites and genocide to Europe than any other "barbaric" nation. But to the young and inexperienced I am sure it sounds great.... Also I noticed too much propaganda on the web and less sources... historical I mean... watch what you read and from who.



God bless,
Philothei

[Komnenos]

Hmph. You all keep talking about how the Turks forced the conquered peoples into illteracy. Could someone answer my question: When did this happen, and what was supposedly its extent? I have never heard about this before, and considering that prominent posts in Ottoman society were at times held by Greeks gives me reason to doubt what you say.
The only Prominant posts were held by the Rich Greeks of the Phanar Quarter (Phanariotes) who could afford to send their children to study abroad. The rest of the Christian population (zimmis as they were called) could not attend school, own weapons or horses, and had to sneak to religious schooling at night. Only religious. Their was no conventional education availible to the 96% Greeks who were not rich. The Bulgarians had it much worse as they didn't even have a rich minority. Just because some rich Greeks had prominant positions doesn't mean that Greeks were treated well.

[Zealous Zeth]

Let us pray for the day to come when Constantinople are retaken and the Hun driven out! Hunnic terror replaced the Greek utopia, that's a clear evidence of Islam's evil.

The Ottoman empire was a manifestation of evil. The Sultan had a harem, and on his deathbed he elected a successor. And the new Sultan would then slaughter all of his half-brothers. That is also a clear evidence of Islam's evil and that the "culture" of the Hun's is morally bankrupt and that they should be driven from the Holy city.

Komnenos, how is it living in "Turkey" (should be Hunnica) as a Christian Greek, can't be easy? Let us all pray for that God will give us vengeance on the infidel.

[Futuwwa]

http://www.neobyzantine.org/movement/problems/index.php

and this is the genocide link which I could not paste for some reason.

Honestly, I am wondering how you have this infatuation with the Ottomans? I understand that England has been supporting and spreading lies about how great Ottomans were... but believe me they were not too great of a civilization... and I say that in all honesty not because they distroyed our country.... Byzantium... but because it is obvious that they were the most barbaric and uncivilized people. Some modern scholars have tried in vain to convience Europeans for the opposite... but in all honesty they cannot. There is way too much evidence that speaks for it self. Too many Neo-martyrs that were executed under the Ottomans in the mainland of Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia etc... all over the place. This myth of the Ottomans is a joke. Now Arabs as a civilization is much more admirable... if you do not take to account that they were mulsims. It is interesting that through my research I find out that the Ottomans talk about the ottoman Empire including the Mores.... ha! they were Arabs not Turks ... I see a lot of distrortion of the history and more credit given to the ones who did the worst attrocites and genocide to Europe than any other "barbaric" nation. But to the young and inexperienced I am sure it sounds great.... Also I noticed too much propaganda on the web and less sources... historical I mean... watch what you read and from who.



God bless,
Philothei

Well, I can assure you that my knowledge of the Ottomans comes from Western historians, not the Turkish Information Ministry. As for why I fancy the Ottomans, it's the very essence of what the Ottoman state strived to be: a universal empire of all peoples and faiths under Islamic leadership. Ottoman poetry recounts the story of its founder, Osman I, of how his imperial pursuits were inspired by a dream where he grew into a tree whose shade covered the earth and let its people rest in its shade. While the story itself is probably more mythical glorification than truth, such stories tell a lot about the ideological leanings of the society which spawned the legend.

Generally speaking, the Ottomans did quite well in utilizing the capabilities of cultures under their rule. They took over the scientific tradition of the Persians and the Arabs, and they incorporated the very advanced Byzantine imperial administration into their own empire. They kept the Byzantine Church functioning while supervising the Patriarchate to prevent rebellion.

In an age of rampant aristocracy both in Europe and the Middle East, the Ottomans promoted based on merit, many grand viziers even being slaves promoted in service of the empire. The devshirme system did not only provide the empire with crack troops, but also with an avenue for advancement within all areas of society - one of the best known cases being Sinan the Builder, the first earthquake engineer in the world.

The Ottomans had lower tax rates than contemporary Christian great powers, even in the case of Ottoman Christians who had to pay more than Ottoman Muslims. During the time when the Ottomans shared a border with Hungary, Hungarian serfs regularly fled over the border to escape the oppressive feudalism of their home country. When Suleyman I conquered it in 1523, he had no problem finding people willing to collaborate with the Ottomans. And despite it, the Ottoman state was not only concerned with war, but could afford public works and civic improvement too, in conquered lands as well as in their mainlands.

Now, I'm not going to deny that there were darker sides to Ottoman history. I will not defend the massacre of Chios in case you are wondering. If I ever go to Greece, I will gladly pay respect at the grave of St Philothei. I just think that, regarding it in its historical context, the Ottoman Empire managed quite well to be what it aspired to be for a few centuries, even if it later stagnated, fossilized and became not only more oppressive but largely obsolete.

[Futuwwa]

The only Prominant posts were held by the Rich Greeks of the Phanar Quarter (Phanariotes) who could afford to send their children to study abroad. The rest of the Christian population (zimmis as they were called) could not attend school, own weapons or horses, and had to sneak to religious schooling at night. Only religious. Their was no conventional education availible to the 96% Greeks who were not rich. The Bulgarians had it much worse as they didn't even have a rich minority. Just because some rich Greeks had prominant positions doesn't mean that Greeks were treated well.

How about the Greeks of mainland Greece, then? They were prominent within Imperial maritime trade, weren't they? Where else did the Greeks get a fleet for their War of Independence? Certainly not from the Phanariots who very wisely kept a low profile during the whole thing.

[Futuwwa]

Let us pray for the day to come when Constantinople are retaken and the Hun driven out! Hunnic terror replaced the Greek utopia, that's a clear evidence of Islam's evil.

The Ottoman empire was a manifestation of evil. The Sultan had a harem, and on his deathbed he elected a successor. And the new Sultan would then slaughter all of his half-brothers. That is also a clear evidence of Islam's evil and that the "culture" of the Hun's is morally bankrupt and that they should be driven from the Holy city.

Hmph. How is that different from Byzantine princes and close relatives of the Emperor engaging in bloody intrigues to seize power from each other? The Ottomans accepted royal fratricide as a lesser evil, a way of preventing succession wars and ensuring a shrewd successor. The only time civil war broke out over succession was in 1402, and that happened only because Sultan Bayezid I was captured and carried away by Timur Lenk very abruptly causing a power vacuum. Can you say the same about the Byzantines? The events of 1204 were a direct consequence of one Byzantine prince seeking allies to overthrow the ruling emperor.

[Zealous Zeth]

Having a HAREM? I thought Mohamed said that Men and Women where going to be equal? (I watched "The message")

Also, a man should only have sex with his wife. Prostitution is forbidden by God.


There was a civil war in 1421 I think, when the Byzantines released the Ottoman pretender Mustafa who whee defeated by his brother Murad, no? Killing people for the sake of keeping order in a ruthless state of terror is not a good action.

[Komnenos]

How about the Greeks of mainland Greece, then? They were prominent within Imperial maritime trade, weren't they? Where else did the Greeks get a fleet for their War of Independence? Certainly not from the Phanariots who very wisely kept a low profile during the whole thing.
The fleet came from the Islands not mainland Greece. And the Phanariotes started the Philliki Etaria which started the revolution. And I don't see what having trade has to do with being educated. You do not need to be literate to know how to trade.

[Komnenos]

Let us pray for the day to come when Constantinople are retaken and the Hun driven out! Hunnic terror replaced the Greek utopia, that's a clear evidence of Islam's evil.

The Ottoman empire was a manifestation of evil. The Sultan had a harem, and on his deathbed he elected a successor. And the new Sultan would then slaughter all of his half-brothers. That is also a clear evidence of Islam's evil and that the "culture" of the Hun's is morally bankrupt and that they should be driven from the Holy city.

Komnenos, how is it living in "Turkey" (should be Hunnica) as a Christian Greek, can't be easy? Let us all pray for that God will give us vengeance on the infidel.
Its hard but not as hard as you would think. We don't have complete freedom but we are allowed to worship. (just not in a very visible way) we did have the Greek festival a couple of months ago which had the largest crowd in years.

[Futuwwa]

The fleet came from the Islands not mainland Greece. And the Phanariotes started the Philliki Etaria which started the revolution. And I don't see what having trade has to do with being educated. You do not need to be literate to know how to trade.

Try to get entry to any economics school without knowing how to read, try to convince them that literacy is unnecessary for trade. You need to be highly numerate to trade, to be able to calculate revenues and costs, supply, demand and stockpiles, to make budgets, and pretty much everything you do as a merchant. As for literacy, that's required for correspondence, bookkeeping and contracts at the least.

[Thekla]

Try to get entry to any economics school without knowing how to read, try to convince them that literacy is unnecessary for trade. You need to be highly numerate to trade, to be able to calculate revenues and costs, supply, demand and stockpiles, to make budgets, and pretty much everything you do as a merchant. As for literacy, that's required for correspondence, bookkeeping and contracts at the least.
my great great grandfather ran a successful business (in Cyprus) without the benefit of "literacy"; he kept accounts using legumes and mother-wit :)

[Futuwwa]

I wasn't talking about peddling, but shipping and international trade.

[Thekla]

I wasn't talking about peddling, but shipping and international trade.
nor was he a peddler :)

(don't tell me your anti-tinker !)

[Komnenos]

Try to get entry to any economics school without knowing how to read, try to convince them that literacy is unnecessary for trade. You need to be highly numerate to trade, to be able to calculate revenues and costs, supply, demand and stockpiles, to make budgets, and pretty much everything you do as a merchant. As for literacy, that's required for correspondence, bookkeeping and contracts at the least.
I don't know how you can cite the small amount of rich Greeks and the Greeks of the shipping industry, to say the vast majority of Greeks were literate. When fighting with the Greeks Lord Byron said one of them reminded him of Achilles the Greek replied "Who is this Achilles? how many men has he killed with his musket" if that is not illiteracy I don't know what is.

[Futuwwa]

Hmph. I wasn't referring to overall literacy levels, which (in % of the whole population) were in the one-digit range, possibly even in the promille range, in pretty much all populations everywhere in the world until mass public education started in the 19th century.

I was objecting to your claim that there was some universal ban on education applying to the Greek millet, which I think sounds a bit fishy in the light of some of its members being as prominent as they were.

[Komnenos]

Hmph. I wasn't referring to overall literacy levels, which (in % of the whole population) were in the one-digit range, possibly even in the promille range, in pretty much all populations everywhere in the world until mass public education started in the 19th century.

I was objecting to your claim that there was some universal ban on education applying to the Greek millet, which I think sounds a bit fishy in the light of some of its members being as prominent as they were.
There was a ban on Zimmi education! The only reason that some Greeks were educated is because their parents had money to send them to study abroad. Zimmis (non muslims btw) could not attend Ottoman schools and could not own a Horse or weapons.

[Futuwwa]

And the Ottomans didn't stop the dhimmis from seeking education on their own?

[Komnenos]

And the Ottomans didn't stop the dhimmis from seeking education on their own?
No, because if you were rich you could do what you wanted outside of the Empire. Thye only way for a zimmi subject to obtain an education was to have been rich enough to study abroad.The Greeks were not the only ones under Ottoman rule. The Bulgarians, Serbians and Romanians had it much worse. They didn't even have an educated minority.

[JMC309]

Apologies for butting in and correct me if I'm wrong, Futuwwa, but is it not the case that had the Byzantines not thrashed the Sassanids in preparation for them to be subsumed by the Arab Conquest, these Sassanids would have prevented any Islamic Jihad from getting off the ground. No Arab conquest; no Islamic Turkey and no Ottomans! If this is the case, such hostility to the Byzantines is rather strange for a neo-Ottoman.

[Komnenos]

Apologies for butting in and correct me if I'm wrong, Futuwwa, but is it not the case that had the Byzantines not thrashed the Sassanids in preparation for them to be subsumed by the Arab Conquest, these Sassanids would have prevented any Islamic Jihad from getting off the ground. No Arab conquest; no Islamic Turkey and no Ottomans! If this is the case, such hostility to the Byzantines is rather strange for a neo-Ottoman.
100% correct JMC309! Emperor Heraklios defeated Persia and left its army in tatters.

[Futuwwa]

No, because if you were rich you could do what you wanted outside of the Empire. Thye only way for a zimmi subject to obtain an education was to have been rich enough to study abroad.The Greeks were not the only ones under Ottoman rule. The Bulgarians, sebians and Romanians had it much worse. They didn't even have an educated minority.

Allright, I stand corrected for now.

[Komnenos]

Allright, I stand corrected for now.
No hard feelings I hope?

[JMC309]

100% correct JMC309! Emperor Heraklios defeated Persia and left its army in tatters.


OTOH this idea cuts both ways. For if indeed the Ottomans had never existed, would there really have been a Diaspora of Orthodox believers around the globe? Not if Byzantium had never fallen, surely! Think about this - how many who are now Orthodox would not be? Furthermore, it was the exodus of Greek intellectuals from Constantinople that kick-started the Rennaisance in Western Europe, and it was the Rennaisance that kick started Protestantism. Amazing how history works, is it not? :)

[Komnenos]

OTOH this idea cuts both ways. For if indeed the Ottomans had never existed, would there really have been a Diaspora of Orthodox believers around the globe? Not if Byzantium had never fallen, surely! Think about this - how many who are now Orthodox would not be? Furthermore, it was the exodus of Greek intellectuals from Constantinople that kick-started the Rennaisance in Western Europe, and it was the Rennaisance that kick started Protestantism. Amazing how history works, is it not? :)
True! but the Byzantines could have sent missionaries! You are right about the Renaissance. "The light of the east travelled west" Plethon, Byzantine Philosopher living in Italy

[JMC309]

True! but the Byzantines could have sent missionaries!


Indeed, but would this really have had the same effect? Given that few people in the West knew (or know even now) anything about Orthodoxy, it seems to me that that mission was not high on the Byzantine agenda.

[Komnenos]

Indeed, but would this really have had the same effect? Given that few people in the West knew (or know even now) anything about Orthodoxy, it seems to me that that mission was not high on the Byzantine agenda.
I see what you mean. I guess Orthodoxy would have stayed in Byzantium and the East. Who knows? It could have been Christophoros Colombos who discovered America! lol

[JMC309]

I suppose my point is that it is futile to have arguments over strengths and weaknesses of empires that have been dead for at least one century, if not four or five. After all, the two empires in question were interdependant on each other for their success in different ways, as I have shown. As I see it, for all of man's evil, God is in control, and by His sovereignty foreordains certain events to happen in a certain way. Sometimes we may rail against these events and their human perpetraters, without realising that God works good in them. Thanks be to God!

We know that neither the Ottomans nor the Byzantines were angels or demons, but somewhere in between. Each had their strengths and weaknesses. Each did good, each did evil. Each had their heroes, each their villains. What we ought to do is see God at wok in the history of the world, and praise him for the glorious success of all His ways.

:amen:

[Futuwwa]

Apologies for butting in and correct me if I'm wrong, Futuwwa, but is it not the case that had the Byzantines not thrashed the Sassanids in preparation for them to be subsumed by the Arab Conquest, these Sassanids would have prevented any Islamic Jihad from getting off the ground. No Arab conquest; no Islamic Turkey and no Ottomans! If this is the case, such hostility to the Byzantines is rather strange for a neo-Ottoman.

I prefer to regard that course of events as divine providence rather than a favour done by the Byzantines. As far as I'm concerned, both 7th century Byzantium and Persia were enemies of Islam. They both were vicious persecutors of religions other than their state religion, and needed to go so Islam could spread further.

[Futuwwa]

Having a HAREM? I thought Mohamed said that Men and Women where going to be equal? (I watched "The message")

Also, a man should only have sex with his wife. Prostitution is forbidden by God.


There was a civil war in 1421 I think, when the Byzantines released the Ottoman pretender Mustafa who whee defeated by his brother Murad, no? Killing people for the sake of keeping order in a ruthless state of terror is not a good action.

Ok, two civil wars. If you even can call Mustafa's usurpation attempt a civil war rather than foreign support of an insurgent. Mustafa wasn't backed by any segments of Ottoman society, just by a few regiments which joined him on the way but of which several deserted later.

What has the Sultan's harem to do with royal fratricide? Or prostitution for that matter.

By the way, who are you calling Huns? The Huns are of Turkic origins, but migrated westwards several centuries before the Turkmens.

[Aristokles]

You asked, so...
At the least the Ottoman sultans can be credited with insulating the Greek Orthodox Churches from the heresies of the Lutheran reformation - there was a genuine danger there, but the Ottomans helped without meaning to. That's about it for the plus side.
My fathers family - both sides- departed Asia Minor before WWI having enjoyed the benevolent (read: bloody) rule of the Ottoman for long enough. They abandoned their ancestral homes, occupied for 100's of years, in both Constantinople and Trapezounta.
Islam - the ultimate heresy and plague on the Church. Their Turkish warriors, anti-Christs.

http://www.hellenicgenocide.org/

http://armeniangenocideposters.org/

[Orthosdoxa]

They both were vicious persecutors of religions other than their state religion

Gee, not that Muslim nations would know anything about that...

[Zealous Zeth]

What has the Sultan's harem to do with royal fratricide? Or prostitution for that matter. Tell me: did not Mohamed tell you that you should threat women equal to men? Also having a Harem means that you fornicate, you do it with someone else than your wife which is also forbidden in the Quran?

By the way, who are you calling Huns? The Huns are of Turkic origins, but migrated westwards several centuries before the Turkmens. So what? They are the same; Parthians, Huns, Alans, Cumans, Turks and so on. All have they fought against Rome and Christendom.

[Philothei]

Tell me: did not Mohamed tell you that you should threat women equal to men? Also having a Harem means that you fornicate, you do it with someone else than your wife which is also forbidden in the Quran?

So what? They are the same; Parthians, Huns, Alans, Cumans, Turks and so on. All have they fought against Rome and Christendom.
Do not forget the mongols please and the Tartars...

it is a blend.... a very noisy and interesting....one too !

[Philothei]

and it was the Rennaisance that kick started Protestantism....


Oh boy that is a loaded statement... Those little eros paintings... started Protestanism??? They defenately started Humanism.... but Humanism is way out of.... Protestanism.

let's be realistic here.

Philothei

[Philothei]

They both were vicious persecutors of religions other than their state religion, and needed to go so Islam could spread further."

yeah like the rest of Europe...



I need to see evidence as how the Byzantines were vicious prececutors of Islam ... on the contrary we can bring thousands of examples of Islamic percecution in martyrs such as :

St. Philothei
(beaten to death in Athens! Memory eternal )

St.Ephraim of Athens by beating and hanging

etc.... etc.. just two ....

Also:

St. John of Damascus


"Rich history of this icon is connected with St. John Damascus, famous religious poet and Orthodox Arab, who lived in 8th century. He served in the castle of Siria's calif and he was accused as an enemy of state and his right hand was cut off as a sentence. He was a man of great faith and with love for Mother of God. He asked calif for his hand and prayed in front of this icon for healing and he was healed ! He made a silver right hand and put it on the icon as a symbol of his miraculous healing. He also gave the icon its name. A Legend says that this icon was made by Apostle Luka, and, since he knew the Mother of God personally, it shows how She really looked like.



Also the Fathers had dialogue with the Muslims like John of Damascus, St Gregory Palamas and others... in order to understand each other, but always the Turks would answer with violence... what is your evidence for the opposite? Crusaders happen with the west not the byzantines... they did not organize them... so if someone was the great enemy to Islam that would be the west...who BTW did a number on Constantinople too ...:( who are also responsible that they did not listen of the danger of the Ottomans in the first place... and when the danger came outside of Vienna then they realized that the Byzantines were right.....


We had religious tolerance that is why we got into trouble in the first place.... what the Ottomans did not realize is the power of the Christian faith... the passive resistance of the Christians. We organized our nations, in the Balkans, and were able to kick out the Turks not because we were great nations but primarely because we were fervent Christians and we decided to sacrifice ourselves for a free Christian and religious tolerant nation. Freedom of religion and expression so foreign to the Ottomans and all Islamic nations... There is no religious oppression anywhere in Europe. The only control and oppression came from the Mores and the Ottomans both fundamental Islamic nations...

And please save me the talk about how they "steal" everything from any other civilizations... big deal like that was so smart of them.

Learn history... do not let them brainwash you... you are been mislead to believe they were such great heroes and that the Greeks and the Byzantines were bad... yeah I admitt they were no dolls but they did not do 1/10 of what the Barbaric Hans, Mongols and Tartars did to the Anatolia....you said it yourself the Byzantines were educated... do you know lots of westerners educated people with Christian ethos that would resort to barbaric measures?? Read Ostrogorsky the "Byzantine State" very unbiased and straight ... Read about the first Western Hospital in Cessaria by St. Basil the Great, the poor houses, the orphanages the Byz. philanthropy. The "stromata" (LAWS) of Justinian...and then compare this civilization to the Ottomans...

God bless,
philothei

[JMC309]

Oh boy that is a loaded statement... Those little eros paintings... started Protestanism??? They defenately started Humanism.... but Humanism is way out of.... Protestanism.

let's be realistic here.


I am being very realistic. Humanism was not all about eros paintings. The resurgence in studying Greek led to a surge of people going right back to the original sources, to the original Scriptures. Scholars such as Erasmus, who were not part of the official church hierarchy, now began to mount critiques against the Vulgate Latin translation of the Bible. On the back of these critiques, people like Luther and Calvin came along to point out that doctrine had to change given these advances in bible study. The Catholic church refused, and so...

[buzuxi02]

All translations can be defecient. Only in greek is the bible divinely inspired.
As far as protestants studuing the bible in its original language, i'll have to take that with a grain of salt. Greek scholars have always been sorely lacking in the entire history of protestantism.

[JMC309]

All translations can be defecient. Only in greek is the bible divinely inspired.

Don't forget the Hebrew and Aramaic bits ;)

As far as protestants studuing the bible in its original language, i'll have to take that with a grain of salt. Greek scholars have always been sorely lacking in the entire history of protestantism.

This is not about Protestants studying the Bible, but Humanists. Erasmus (a staunch anti-Lutheran) pointed out that 'Do Penance,' found in the Vulgate, would be better translated as 'Repent.' This is very important for the Sacraments. On the back of this and other criticisms came the Reformers, with even more of a radical critique of Catholic ideas. As for Greek scholars being lacking, I'm not about to fault EO on that issue. :)

[Futuwwa]

They both were vicious persecutors of religions other than their state religion, and needed to go so Islam could spread further."

yeah like the rest of Europe...

I need to see evidence as how the Byzantines were vicious prececutors of Islam ...

I didn't say directly that, only that the Byzantine Empire, at the time it made first contact with Islam, was a vicious persecutor of all but its state religion. This being the reason why the Jews of Palestine defected to the Sassanids in 614, and the Ghassanian Arabs to the Caliphate during the battle of Yarmuk in 636. Considering the way the Byzantines dealt with heretics, it is obvious they would not have let Islam spread in its lands peacefully. I don't know exactly what Byzantine policy was later on in this regard, but during the 7th century, Byzantium needed to go.

on the contrary we can bring thousands of examples of Islamic percecution in martyrs such as :

St. Philothei
(beaten to death in Athens! Memory eternal )

St.Ephraim of Athens by beating and hanging

etc.... etc.. just two ....

I don't know who St Ephraim is, but St Philothei was not persecuted because of her religion. She was killed because she broke the law by hosting fugitive slaves. Her cause was just and her execution wrong, but it doesn't qualify as religious persecution.

Freedom of religion and expression so foreign to the Ottomans and all Islamic nations... There is no religious oppression anywhere in Europe. The only control and oppression came from the Mores and the Ottomans both fundamental Islamic nations...

Well, during the Ottoman timeframe, religious persecution was alive and well in Europe. That's what I mean by historical context. Some countries like Poland and Russia were fairly tolerant, but in Western Europe, religious tolerance was practically unheard of until the end of the 30 years war, and even then religious freedom only meant that you could choose between Catholicism and Protestantism.

And please save me the talk about how they "steal" everything from any other civilizations... big deal like that was so smart of them.

Well, to adopt the good parts from other peoples, one needs to have a certain appreciation of the achievements of others. If the Ottomans would really have been the barbarian enemies of civilization some here make them, they would only have been able to destroy, not assimilate in the way they did. Being vicious in war does not mean they were unsophisticated brutes in other fields of society.

Read about the first Western Hospital in Cessaria by St. Basil the Great, the poor houses, the orphanages the Byz. philanthropy. The "stromata" (LAWS) of Justinian...and then compare this civilization to the Ottomans...

God bless,
philothei

Well, it's not like philantrophy is unique to the Byzantines. Contemporary Islamic states also had public works, state-run hospitals, public sanitation, poor-care and the like. Which is not surprising, since they were comparably wealthy and advanced as the Byzantines, and could afford philantrophy.

[Futuwwa]

So what? They are the same; Parthians, Huns, Alans, Cumans, Turks and so on. All have they fought against Rome and Christendom.

No, they're not the same, only related. Or maybe I should call you a Norwegian :P

Parthians aren't even Turkic, they're Aryan. Parthia = Persia.

[Futuwwa]

Tell me: did not Mohamed tell you that you should threat women equal to men? Also having a Harem means that you fornicate, you do it with someone else than your wife which is also forbidden in the Quran?

Fornicate? Did it ever occur to you that one might actually be married to the women in one's harem? A harem is not a private bordello. It is simply the part of an oriental house where the women live.

[Philothei]

I didn't say directly that, only that the Byzantine Empire, at the time it made first contact with Islam, was a vicious persecutor of all but its state religion. This being the reason why the Jews of Palestine defected to the Sassanids in 614, and the Ghassanian Arabs to the Caliphate during the battle of Yarmuk in 636. Considering the way the Byzantines dealt with heretics, it is obvious they would not have let Islam spread in its lands peacefully. I don't know exactly what Byzantine policy was later on in this regard, but during the 7th century, Byzantium needed to go.



I don't know who St Ephraim is, but St Philothei was not persecuted because of her religion. She was killed because she broke the law by hosting fugitive slaves. Her cause was just and her execution wrong, but it doesn't qualify as religious persecution.



Well, during the Ottoman timeframe, religious persecution was alive and well in Europe. That's what I mean by historical context. Some countries like Poland and Russia were fairly tolerant, but in Western Europe, religious tolerance was practically unheard of until the end of the 30 years war, and even then religious freedom only meant that you could choose between Catholicism and Protestantism.



Well, to adopt the good parts from other peoples, one needs to have a certain appreciation of the achievements of others. If the Ottomans would really have been the barbarian enemies of civilization some here make them, they would only have been able to destroy, not assimilate in the way they did. Being vicious in war does not mean they were unsophisticated brutes in other fields of society.



Well, it's not like philantrophy is unique to the Byzantines. Contemporary Islamic states also had public works, state-run hospitals, public sanitation, poor-care and the like. Which is not surprising, since they were comparably wealthy and advanced as the Byzantines, and could afford philantrophy.
Sorry but your polemics gave me a good laugh... to say the least....I loved the one "Byz. had to go" attitude towards historical events... reasoning...

Also, that St. Philothei and all the martyrs were not persecuted because of their beliefs....lol... that was the most hilarious one. Esp. when Philothei is proven to have "converted" mulsim women who escaped because they were in Pasha's harem and became Christian... Why then the mulsims killed the mulsim converts??? if there was tolerance? and so many religious Greeks?? especially the monastics?

Here is an example:

ST AHMED THE CALLIGRAPHER The holy New Martyr Ahmed was born in the seventeenth century to a Muslim family in Constantinople. By profession he was a copyist in the Great Archives. In accordance with Ottoman law, since he did not have a wife, he had a slave instead, a Russian woman. Another captive from Russia lived together with her, an old woman, also a slave. Both these women were very pious.
On feast days the old woman would go to church. Taking the blessed bread or antidoron, she would give it to the young woman to eat. The old woman would also bring her holy water to drink. Whenever this occurred and Ahmed was close to her, he would smell a beautiful and indescribable fragrance coming out of her mouth. He would ask her what she was eating to make her mouth smell so fragrant. Not realizing what was happening, the slave would say that she was not eating anything. However, he persisted in asking. Eventually she told him that she was eating the bread which had been blessed by the priests, which the old woman brought her whenever she returned from church.
On hearing this, Ahmed was filled with longing to see the Orthodox church and how Orthodox received this blessed bread. Therefore he summoned a priest and told him to prepare a secret place for him, so that he could go when the Patriarch was serving the Liturgy. When the appointed day arrived, dressed as an Orthodox, he went to the Patriarchate and followed the Divine Liturgy. While he was in church, he saw the Patriarch shining with light and lifted off the floor, as he came out of the altar and through the holy doors to bless the people. As he blessed, rays of light came from his finger tips, but though the rays fell on the heads of all the Orthodox, they did not fall on Ahmed's head. This happened two or three times and each time Ahmed saw the same thing. Thus, Ahmed came to the faith. Without hesitation he sent for the priest, who gave him rebirth through baptism. Ahmed remained a secret Orthodox for some time, concealing his baptismal name, which is why it has not come down to us.
However, one day Ahmed and certain noblemen were eating together. Afterwards they sat talking and smoking, as is the Muslim custom. In the course of the conversation they began to discuss what the greatest thing in the world. Each gave his opinion. The first guest said that the greatest thing in the world was for a man to have wisdom. The second maintained that woman was the greatest thing in the world. And yet a third said that the greatest thing in the world, and by far the most delightful, was good food - for was this not the food of the righteous in paradise?
Then it was Ahmed's turn. They all turned to him, asking him for his opinion on this matter. Filled with holy zeal, Ahmed cried out that the greatest thing of all was the Faith of the Orthodox. And confessing himself to be a Christian, he boldly censured the falseness and deception of the Muslims. At first, on hearing this the Muslims were aghast. Then, filled with unspeakable rage, they fell on the holy martyr and dragged him to a judge, so that he could be sentenced to death. He was beheaded, receiving the crown of martyrdom on the orders of the ruler on 3 May 1682.
Holy Martyr Ahmed, pray to God for us!



Also St. Ephraim who was killed and tortured for his faith:





http://www.stirene.org/images/EphraimProsk.jpg

EPHRAIM THE GREAT MARTYR

May 5th


The holy New Martyr and wonderworker Ephraim was born in Greece on September 14, 1384. His father died when the saint was young, and his pious mother was left to care for seven children by herself.

When Ephraim reached the age of fourteen, the all-good God directed his steps to a monastery on the mountain of Amoman near Nea Makri in Attica. The monastery was dedicated to the Annunciation and also to St Paraskeva. Here he took on his shoulders the Cross of Christ, which all His followers must bear (Matt. 16:24). Being enflamed with love for God, St Ephraim eagerly placed himself under the monastic discipline. For nearly twenty-seven years he imitated the life of the great Fathers and ascetics of the desert. With divine zeal, he followed Christ and turned away from the attractions of this world. By the grace of God, he purified himself from soul-destroying passions and became an abode of the All-Holy Spirit. He was also found worthy to receive the grace of the priesthood, and served at the altar with great reverence and compunction.

On September 14, 1425, the barbarous Turks launched an invasion by sea, destroying the monastery and and looting the surrounding area. St Ephraim was one of the victims of their frenzied hatred. Many of the monks had been tortured and beheaded, but St Ephraim remained calm. This infuriated the Turks, so they imprisoned him in order to torture him and force him to deny Christ.

They locked him in a small cell without food or water, and they beat him every day, hoping to convince him to become a Moslem. For several months, he endured horrible torments. When the Turks realized that the saint remained faithful to Christ, they decided to put him to death. On Tuesday May 5, 1426, they led him from his cell. They turned him upside down and tied him to a mulberry tree, then they beat him and mocked him. "Where is your God," they asked, "and why doesn't he help you?" The saint did not lose courage, but prayed, "O God, do not listen to the words of these men, but may Thy will be done as Thou hast ordained."

The barbarians pulled the saint's beard and tortured him until his strength ebbed. His blood flowed, and his clothes were in tatters. His body was almost naked and covered with many wounds. Still the Hagarenes were not satisfied, but wished to torture him even more. One of them took a flaming stick and plunged it violently into the saint's navel. His screams were heart-rending, so great was his pain. The blood flowed from his stomach, but the Turks did not stop. They repeated the same painful torments many times. His body writhed, and all his limbs were convulsed. Soon, the saint grew too weak to speak, so he prayed silently asking God to forgive his sins. Blood and saliva ran from his mouth, and the ground was soaked with his blood. Then he lapsed into unconsciousness.

Thinking that he had died, the Turks cut the ropes which bound him to the tree, and the saint's body fell to the ground. Their rage was still not diminished, so they continued to kick and beat him. After a while, the saint opened his eyes and prayed, "Lord, I give up my spirit to Thee." About nine o'clock in the morning, the martyr's soul was separated from his body.
These things remained forgotten for nearly 500 years, hidden in the depths of silence and oblivion until January 3, 1950. By then a women's monastery had sprung up on the site of the old monastery. Abbess Makaria (+ April 23, 1999) was wandering through the ruins of the monastery, thinking of the martyrs whose bones had been scattered over that ground, and whose blood had watered the tree of Orthodoxy. She realized that this was a holy place, and she prayed that God would permit her to behold one of the Fathers who had lived there.

After some time, she seemed to sense an inner voice telling her to dig in a certain spot. She indicated the place to a workman whom she had hired to make repairs at the old monastery. The man was unwilling to dig there, for he wanted to dig somewhere else. Because the man was so insistent, Mother Makaria let him go where he wished. She prayed that the man would not be able to dig there, and so he struck rock. Although he tried to dig in three or four places, he met with the same results. Finally, he agreed to dig where the abbess had first indicated.

In the ruins of an old cell, he cleared away the rubble and began to dig in an angry manner. The abbess told him to slow down, for she did not want him to damage the body that she expected to find there. He mocked her because she expected to find the relics of a saint. When he reached the depth of six feet, however, he unearthed the head of the man of God. At that moment an ineffable fragrance filled the air. The workman turned pale and was unable to speak. Mother Makaria told him to go and leave her there by herself. She knelt and reverently kissed the body. As she cleared away more earth, she saw the sleeves of the saint's rasson. The cloth was thick and appeared to have been woven on the loom of an earlier time. She uncovered the rest of the body and began to remove the bones, which appeared to be those of a martyr.

Mother Makaria was still in that holy place when evening fell, so she read the service of Vespers. Suddenly she heard footsteps coming from the grave, moving across the courtyard toward the door of the church. The footsteps were strong and steady, like those of a man of strong character. The nun was afraid to turn around and look, but then she heard a voice say, "How long are you going to leave me here?"

She saw a tall monk with small, round eyes, whose beard reached his chest. In his left hand was a bright light, and he gave a blessing with his right hand. Mother Makaria was filled with joy and her fear disappeared. "Forgive me," she said, "I will take care of you tomorrow as soon as God makes the day dawn." The saint disappeared, and the abbess continued to read Vespers.

In the morning after Matins, Mother Makaria cleaned the bones and placed them in a niche in the altar area of the church, lighting a candle before them. That night St Ephraim appeared to her in a dream. He thanked her for caring for his relics, then he said, "My name is St Ephraim." From his own lips, she heard the story of his life and martyrdom.

Since St Ephraim glorified God in his life and by his death, the Lord granted him the grace of working miracles. Those who venerate his holy relics with faith and love have been healed of all kinds of illnesses and infirmities, and he is quick to answer the prayers of those who call upon him.



God bless,
Philothei

[Philothei]

Being vicious in war does not mean they were unsophisticated brutes in other fields of society.



No... that makes them unsophisticated "mannered" brutes....lol... with good table manners do not make me post the barbaric tortures that they used in their war fare....

Philothei

[Komnenos]

"Byzantium needed to go"

Islam needed to conquer you mean?

[disasm]

Also, that St. Philothei and all the martyrs were not persecuted because of their beliefs....lol... that was the most hilarious one. Esp. when Philothei is proven to have "converted" mulsim women who escaped because they were in Pasha's harem and became Christian... Why then the mulsims killed the mulsim converts??? if there was tolerance? and so many religious Greeks?? especially the monastics?

Here is an example:

ST AHMED THE CALLIGRAPHER
Also St. Ephraim who was killed and tortured for his faith:

These lives of the Saints brought tears to my eyes. Thankyou for sharing these.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner

[Philothei]

You are wellcome Disarm I have the book on the Martyrs under the Turkish yoke.... there are thousands but there are a few hundreeds that are recorded

God bless,
Philothei

[Futuwwa]

"Byzantium needed to go"

Islam needed to conquer you mean?

No. Islam needed to be able to be spread across the world. Byzantium was an obstacle to it, and needed to go.

[Komnenos]

No. Islam needed to be able to be spread across the world. Byzantium was an obstacle to it, and needed to go.
All you said was Islam needed to conquer. You just put it nicely.

[Lukaris]

No. Islam needed to be able to be spread across the world. Byzantium was an obstacle to it, and needed to go.
So you are a hypocrite then & focus on exposing the intolerance of your enemies & justifying your own agenda which is replete with brutality. One just needs to read ibn khaldun's (14th century) muqaddimeh which ackowledges (approvingly) the brutality of jihad conquest. He was also a racist towards slavs & africans but since he is your boy that should make it all right while the racism & other shortcomings of your foes will be duly noted to justify your agenda.

[Orthosdoxa]

Originally Posted by Futuwwa http://www3.foru.ms/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=39624090#post39624090)
No. Islam needed to be able to be spread across the world. Byzantium was an obstacle to it, and needed to go.




Of course. Anything that's an obstacle to this satanic religion must be destroyed, and it's justifiable in the eyes of Muslims. Kill anyone and destroy anything that stands in our way. That's the "religion of peace".

[Komnenos]

Of course. Anything that's an obstacle to this satanic religion must be destroyed, and it's justifiable in the eyes of Muslims. Kill anyone and destroy anything that stands in our way. That's the "religion of peace".

Indeed. Islam being the religion of peace is just a laughable concept.

[SeraphimSarov]

No. Islam needed to be able to be spread across the world. Byzantium was an obstacle to it, and needed to go.
Do you have any idea who you sound like?

Religion of peace my #$%.

[Zealous Zeth]

How dear you to call Byzantium an obstacle, without any respect for that you are talking about God's empire on earth!? Or wait, it is an obstacle FOR EVIL AND FALSE TEACHINGS! To Hades with Islam being a religion of peace! Thou just showed us all the true face of Mohamed’s false prophesies, kill those who disagree, always use the sword, women are nothing compared to men etc. etc. Jesus Christ told us that you would come and that we shall judge you by your fruits:

Matthew 24:24:

"For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." (NKJV)

Luke 6:43:

“For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit." (NKJV)

Also, Mohamed will Burn IN HELL:

Revelation 20:10:

"The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (NKJV)

[Orthosdoxa]

it is an obstacle FOR EVIL AND FALSE TEACHINGS!

Bingo.

[Philothei]

Christ toold us that you would come and taht we should judge you by your fruits


By their Jihad indeed ......

[Zealous Zeth]

By their Jihad indeed ...... Yes excatly. Whatever deceiving* words you take out from the Quran, your actions show your true intentions. You are all driven by hate and you love the sword. (or your guns/suicide bombs) Like when the Pope quoted the Holy Emperor Manoel II, you took it as your right to revange what truth the Bishop of Rome stated by killing innocent Christian nuns. Christians could never do that.


*One of Allah's 99 names is "The allmighty deceiver" isn't it?

[Komnenos]

Today an Armenian shop where I always shop has been vandalized. My friend who Runs it just called. He heard something Downstairs and now his shop is a disaster area. They didn't even take any money!

[Zealous Zeth]

By who? You think the Hunnic police even will care investigating this?

The Huns who did that where doing that in Byzantine land, they should be punnished according to the laws of Byzantium.

[Komnenos]

By who? You think the Hunnic police even will care investigating this?

The Huns who did that where doing that in Byzantine land, they should be punnished according to the laws of Byzantium.
Probably the Grey Wolves. They want to kick all GReeks and Armenians out of Turkey and create a Turkish Empire.

[Philothei]

It is not going to happen any time soon... As long as we have our Patriarchate our presence is inevitable. I know there is going to be trouble with Turkey's entrance to the EU.... and all.

God bless,
Philothei

[Thekla]

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/11/europe/EU-GEN-Turkey-US-Genocide.php

[Philothei]

Bush announced yesterday that he will NOT support the genocide of the Armenians because TURKEY belongs to his NATO partners... and it will interfere with the war on terrorism... ... That is out :( and the millions who died will find no rest..... it is okay as long as we recognized the Holocost though....


God bless,
Philothei

[Thekla]

Bush announced yesterday that he will NOT support the genocide of the Armenians because TURKEY belongs to his NATO partners... and it will interfere with the war on terrorism... ... That is out :( and the millions who died will find no rest..... it is okay as long as we recognized the Holocost though....


God bless,
Philothei
The bill made it out of committee ... we'll see if it reaches the floor for a vote ...

[SeraphimSarov]

Bush announced yesterday that he will NOT support the genocide of the Armenians because TURKEY belongs to his NATO partners... and it will interfere with the war on terrorism... ... That is out :( and the millions who died will find no rest..... it is okay as long as we recognized the Holocost though....


God bless,
Philothei
That's disgusting.

[Futuwwa]

All you said was Islam needed to conquer. You just put it nicely.

No. I would much rather prefer a world where we would coexist, a world without religious persecution. But that was not the case in the environment in which Islam grew up. Pretty much everyone else in the area, including the Byzantines, persecuted religions other than their own. I'm sure you would have loved it if Islam had gone down in flames in the way Monophysitism, Arianism and all the other heresies went, but we disagree.

[Futuwwa]

Of course. Anything that's an obstacle to this satanic religion must be destroyed, and it's justifiable in the eyes of Muslims. Kill anyone and destroy anything that stands in our way. That's the "religion of peace".

Indeed. Islam being the religion of peace is just a laughable concept.

Religion of peace my #$%.

To Hades with Islam being a religion of peace!

Did Captain Obvious just come to the rescue? Did I ever claim Islam was a religion of peace? On the contrary, I'm totally unapologetic when it comes to the theology of jihad, I don't live off your approval.

[Futuwwa]

Philothei, back to the topic

Ok, I guess you know the story of St Philothei better than I do. As for St Ephraim, if the only proof of his existence is the dream of a single nun, you can't really expect any non-Orthodox to believe it happened.

But by all means, tell me more martyr stories. Were they simply killed for being Christians, or for committing apostasy from Islam? From the stories so far it appears to have been the latter.

[SeraphimSarov]

Did Captain Obvious just come to the rescue? Did I ever claim Islam was a religion of peace? On the contrary, I'm totally unapologetic when it comes to the theology of jihad, I don't live off your approval.

More proof that your religion is a walking contradiction... people in this country are all about making sure that Islam is viewed as a religion of peace, and here you are, a Finnish convert of all things, saying the opposite. Simply amazing.

Unapologetic when it comes to the theology of jihad... explain that.

[Komnenos]

No. I would much rather prefer a world where we would coexist, a world without religious persecution. But that was not the case in the environment in which Islam grew up. Pretty much everyone else in the area, including the Byzantines, persecuted religions other than their own. I'm sure you would have loved it if Islam had gone down in flames in the way Monophysitism, Arianism and all the other heresies went, but we disagree.
Jews and Muslims within Byzantium were accorded the greatest rights in all of Europe. I wish we could coexist but Islam destroyed that chance when it unprovocably attacked Byzantium.

[Zealous Zeth]

Bush announced yesterday that he will NOT support the genocide of the Armenians because TURKEY belongs to his NATO partners... and it will interfere with the war on terrorism... ... That is out :( and the millions who died will find no rest..... it is okay as long as we recognized the Holocost though....


God bless,
Philothei

Bush is a man who care about nothing else than mammon. He support the Hun, Peoples Republic of China, Saudi-Arabia and many more oppressing and brutal regimes. He invaded Iraq for his own greedy purposes when countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran have much worse dictators. And he allows the Hun to occupy Byzantine soil and a HOLY CITY!!!

As the leader of the largest Christian country on the Earth, he should defend Christianity against the infidel, the barbaric Hun.

The "grey wolves"? That’s a name for a Swedish Nazi organisation! (Gråvargarna) Not only are Huns violent and barbaric, they also lack fantasy.

[Komnenos]

Bush is a man who care about nothing else than mammon. He support the Hun, Peoples Republic of China, Saudi-Arabia and many more oppressing and brutal regimes. He invaded Iraq for his own greedy purposes when countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran have much worse dictators. And he allows the Hun to occupy Byzantine soil and a HOLY CITY!!!

As the leader of the largest Christian country on the Earth, he should defend Christianity against the infidel, the barbaric Hun.

The "grey wolves"? That’s a name for a Swedish Nazi organisation! (Gråvargarna) Not only are Huns violent and barbaric, they also lack fantasy.
Really!? The Turks stole Grey wolves too. The wolves are the Christians biggest problem here in Turkey. They desecrate our cemeteries, and Churches routinely and try to intimidate us.

[Zealous Zeth]

But by all means, tell me more martyr stories. Were they simply killed for being Christians, or for committing apostasy from Islam? From the stories so far it appears to have been the latter. SO WHAT!? Christianity is the Truth and they are still martyrs if they speak the truth about your false prophet.

Jews and Muslims within Byzantium were accorded the greatest rights in all of Europe. Excatly. One of the problems with the Crusaders in Constantinople was that they attacked local Mosques.

[Komnenos]

SO WHAT!? Christianity is the Truth and they are still martyrs if they speak the truth about your false prophet.

Excatly. One of the problems with the Crusaders in Constantinople was that they attacked local Mosques.
Exactly right Scarlet. Byzantium wanted to be at peace with her neighbours but Islam destroyed that dream. Along with the Fourth crusade....

[Zealous Zeth]

Really!? The Turks stole Grey wolves too. The wolves are the Christians biggest problem here in Turkey. They desecrate our cemeteries, and Churches routinely and try to intimidate us. Do the Turkish police help you at all? Do the Hunnic government support these barbarian scum?

[Komnenos]

Do the Turkish police help you at all? Do the Hunnic government support these barbarian scum?
Surprisingly the police DO help when they are around. They don't go out of their way to stop the wolves though. The GReeks can't even have more then one cultural festival a year because it insults "Turkishness"

[Zealous Zeth]

Surprisingly the police DO help when they are around. They don't go out of their way to stop the wolves though. The GReeks can't even have more then one cultural festival a year because it insults "Turkishness"

What? That's OUTRAGE! You cannot have a festival in your own contry, on Byzantine soil, because it is occupied by Hunnic barbarians!?

I wonder if Futuwwa could defend that, the infidel is half Swedish, a traitor of both blood and faith.

[Komnenos]

What? That's OUTRAGE! You cannot have a festival in your own contry, on Byzantine soil, because it is occupied by Hunnic barbarians!?

I wonder if Futuwwa could defend that, the infidel is half Swedish, a traitor of both blood and faith.
We are allowed one 3 hour long festival on Easter and that is it. We always have a large Police presence as we risk being attacked. Last year 5,000 people came and a Turk converted to Orthodoxy. It was beautiful. It is a shame though. Futtuwa cannot defend this. It has no defence it is despicable.

[Philothei]

Philothei, back to the topic

Ok, I guess you know the story of St Philothei better than I do. As for St Ephraim, if the only proof of his existence is the dream of a single nun, you can't really expect any non-Orthodox to believe it happened.

But by all means, tell me more martyr stories. Were they simply killed for being Christians, or for committing apostasy from Islam? From the stories so far it appears to have been the latter.
From your statements I find it pointless so there... you can enjoy drawing your sword to everyone here.... You already took your position that you openly admitt to everyone that Islam is not a religion of peace... and their acts prove it... trying to prove Christianity as a hostile faith unfortunately as much as you can stretch that truth does not compare to the magnitute of Islam's history, facts and fury... towards mankind... It will go down in history as the more violent, and disprised religion of the world..... no matter how much propaganda you try to spread.

Your own enemy is secularism not Christianity since secularism has infliltrated Islam ( and it defenetely has) there is no way out.


Christianity is a religion of love, acceptance and forgiveness that is why you hate it so much... because you unfortunately you have none. I can bring you thousand of examples of martyrs and to you they will be just "naive" people who died for an empty cause. Well, Mohamet was nonetheless an ignorant man who it was his say about the Islamic religion. Just like you said about that nun ... it is her say... Spiritual accounts are of that nature you know... we do not know if Mohamet was hallusinating and IMO pretty much that is what it was.


God bless,
Philothei

P.S. Praying for you to see the light at the end of the tunnel.... Christ.

[Komnenos]

From your statements I find it pointless so there... you can enjoy drawing your sword to everyone here.... You already took your position that you openly admitt to everyone that Islam is not a religion of peace... and their acts prove it... trying to prove Christianity as a hostile faith unfortunately as much as you can stretch that truth does not compare to the magnitute of Islam's history, facts and fury... towards mankind... It will go down in history as the more violent, and disprised religion of the world..... no matter how much propaganda you try to spread.

Your own enemy is secularism not Christianity since secularism has infliltrated Islam ( and it defenetely has) there is no way out.


Christianity is a religion of love, acceptance and forgiveness that is why you hate it so much... because you unfortunately you have none. I can bring you thousand of examples of martyrs and to you they will be just "naive" people who died for an empty cause. Well, Mohamet was nonetheless an ignorant man who it was his say about the Islamic religion. Just like you said about that nun ... it is her say... Spiritual accounts are of that nature you know... we do not know if Mohamet was hallusinating and IMO pretty much that is what it was.


God bless,
Philothei

P.S. Praying for you to see the light at the end of the tunnel.... Christ.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Philothei again.

[Futuwwa]

Don't worry Komnenos I got you covered.

We are allowed one 3 hour long festival on Easter and that is it. We always have a large Police presence as we risk being attacked. Last year 5,000 people came and a Turk converted to Orthodoxy. It was beautiful. It is a shame though. Futtuwa cannot defend this. It has no defence it is despicable.

Hmmpf, did I ever take the stance of the Republic of Turkey? Never. It is interesting to note that minorities survived a lot better during the Ottoman Empire than during the fascistoid secular republic that succeeded it. Never were there during Ottoman times any notions of Turkey for the Turks, except for really in the end when the secular nationalists already pretty much ran the show (the Young Turk party).

[Futuwwa]

Jews and Muslims within Byzantium were accorded the greatest rights in all of Europe. I wish we could coexist but Islam destroyed that chance when it unprovocably attacked Byzantium.

When exactly was that so, pray tell. Certainly not during the 7th century when the first muwahids came out of Arabia.

[Futuwwa]

More proof that your religion is a walking contradiction... people in this country are all about making sure that Islam is viewed as a religion of peace, and here you are, a Finnish convert of all things, saying the opposite. Simply amazing.

Unapologetic when it comes to the theology of jihad... explain that.

Unapologetic = I won't compromise my beliefs on the issue just to make Islam look more appealing to the outside world.

Islam is neither a religion of peace nor a religion of war. Islam is a lot more complex than that. We have doctrines for both war and peace, for when a holy war is mandated and when it is not.

[Futuwwa]

What? That's OUTRAGE! You cannot have a festival in your own contry, on Byzantine soil, because it is occupied by Hunnic barbarians!?

I wonder if Futuwwa could defend that, the infidel is half Swedish, a traitor of both blood and faith.

Heh heh, if we two would be loyal to our blood and ethnicity, we would have to worship Tyr and raid the coasts of Europe :P

[Futuwwa]

From your statements I find it pointless so there... you can enjoy drawing your sword to everyone here.... You already took your position that you openly admitt to everyone that Islam is not a religion of peace... and their acts prove it... trying to prove Christianity as a hostile faith unfortunately as much as you can stretch that truth does not compare to the magnitute of Islam's history, facts and fury... towards mankind... It will go down in history as the more violent, and disprised religion of the world..... no matter how much propaganda you try to spread.

I think you have misunderstood what I have meant by the posts of a few pages back. I don't hate Christianity, or see it as the enemy. What I'm saying is that, historically, some Christian states and leaders have made themselves enemies of Islam. But of course, not all claimed jihads have been holy, some have just been carried out for the aggrandizement of warlords.

Christianity is a religion of love, acceptance and forgiveness that is why you hate it so much... because you unfortunately you have none.

On the contrary, we do have those things too. The difference is just, we don't believe that love never fails. That's why we have jihad.

I can bring you thousand of examples of martyrs and to you they will be just "naive" people who died for an empty cause.

Please don't think like that. I appreciate your perspective and your sincerity. I might argue with Deus Vult Boy just for the fun of it, but from you, I sincerely hope to learn.

Well, Mohamet was nonetheless an ignorant man who it was his say about the Islamic religion. Just like you said about that nun ... it is her say... Spiritual accounts are of that nature you know... we do not know if Mohamet was hallusinating and IMO pretty much that is what it was.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your perspective, even if I don't think St Ephraim is valid for any discussion on the Ottomans. It certainly could have happened, there is nothing extraordinary about the story, such was warfare during a time when armies consisted to a great degree of irregulars motivated by loot.

I think I need to get my olive branch out again.