Truth is never afraid to stand up.

[marke]

I like this.

Truth is never afraid to stand up. Truth is never afraid to stand there and have a discussion of truth, to have an open Bible and to study those issues. Truth is always ready to do that. Error is not.

I remember a thread I started "Where did Jesus give His followers permission to kill?".

How interesting it was. Thousands of people read it and thousands of people defended torture and killing, but in all those thousands of comments, not a single line of scripture to support the position that a Christian has any right to kill another person. And still they argued.

Many still argue wrong points today using out of context one liners. It's like looking at a tree and calling the tree a forest and ignoring all the other trees in the forest.

I have my bible. I know how to read. I am eager to be corrected. I am seeking the truth. I want to conform to His ways, not my ways or the ways of man and preachers of error.

My sword is sharp. Let us all help each other find the way through the narrow gate. Don't be afraid to stand corrected. This is our duty... help each other find the way. A blind man following a blind man will both fall into a ditch. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Don't be a horse that refuses to drink.

Let's seek the truth together and conform ourselves not to what we want to believe, but to the truth found in the NT which Jesus says will set us free.

Many are called, but few are chosen. Let's all be among those chosen.

God bless.

[HypnoToad]

So, you're saying you believe a police officer sins if he uses deadly force to stop, for example, someone who's about to murder other people?

[JHM]

Bye Now

[Giver]

So, you're saying you believe a police officer sins if he uses deadly force to stop, for example, someone who's about to murder other people?
The world has a right to defend itself using force. A Christian isn’t part of the World.

You don’t need to ask Marke. You should ask Jesus.

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

[jive4005]

God does not consider self defense or the protecting of one's family (even until death resulting) to be a sin. God has repeatedly used men to promote His plan, often bringing death upon many.

"MOTIVE", people... motives of the WHYS we DO are the important and Godly issues.

His,
Rev J

[Giver]

God does not consider self defense or the protecting of one's family (even until death resulting) to be a sin. God has repeatedly used men to promote His plan, often bringing death upon many.

"MOTIVE", people... motives of the WHYS we DO are the important and Godly issues.

His,
Rev J
Show me, using the Word of God, where Jesus told us that we, as Christians, have the right to hurt anyone. Be it in defense of us or someone else.

[Cris413]

Matthew 5:27-48


27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

I would imagine…if we were to take this as literally as some seem to be taking v 39…every believer on the planet should only have one eye and one hand...at best

31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Divorced for any reason other than adultery? Should we lop off the hand we signed our divorce papers with?

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

What about those called to Jury Duty? Subpoenaed for a court case? Anyone who has ever made a promise? The Hasidic Jews …will not swear but they can make a promise…fine hair to split IMHO.

37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

How about defending one's actions or thoughts to anyone with more than a yes or a no? Or promoted their thoughts beyond what was absolutely necessary…or that participate in these forums?

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

What is evil? What evil is Jesus talking about? Is He only talking about killing? What if we scream at anyone who cuts us off in traffic? Or even thinks “you idiot!” What about disciplining children for being disrespectful? Or arguing with anyone for any reason ever?

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

How about if we're sued? Or court ordered child support? Or if an insurance company paid a claim on our behalf for an at fault accident? What if we get a speeding ticket? Are we to pay above and beyond or double what we're asked to pay?

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

What if we passed a beggar buy without giving him something? What if we didn't give to every charitable organization that asked us for money on the doorstep or by mail or telephone solicitation? If I asked anyone reading this to send me $100.00 could I expect a check in mail?

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Do I really need to comment on how gravely short we all fall on this commandment?

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I don’t know about anyone else…even if I got through every other verse noted above….this would be the absolute evidence of my total failure and undeniable need for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…

The Sermon on the Mount…what a wonderful and beautiful message from Jesus Christ to us regarding everything believers are to aspire to by the power of the Holy Spirit.

To me He’s saying…Here is the hard evidence that You NEED me. I am here!

[Cris413]

Regarding the OP...

Absolutely we are to stand firm on/in truth...according to God's word in it's fullness...as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

I do believe it's also extremely important to consider, with discernment of the Holy Spirit...

The MO of the enemy...

who will start out with a "nugget" of truth to make the deception more palatable...for his own agenda...

[Giver]

Matthew 5:27-48


27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

I would imagine…if we were to take this as literally as some seem to be taking v 39…every believer on the planet should only have one eye and one hand...at best
If cutting a hand off or taking ones eye out would stop someone from sinning, it would be a small price to pay. For those who know God sin is death. (1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Divorced for any reason other than adultery? Should we lop off the hand we signed our divorce papers with?

I don’t believe any person who knows God would ever commit adultery, or cause someone else to do such a terrible act.

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

What about those called to Jury Duty? Subpoenaed for a court case? Anyone who has ever made a promise? The Hasidic Jews …will not swear but they can make a promise…fine hair to split IMHO.

37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

How about defending one's actions or thoughts to anyone with more than a yes or a no? Or promoted their thoughts beyond what was absolutely necessary…or that participate in these forums?

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

What is evil? What evil is Jesus talking about? Is He only talking about killing? What if we scream at anyone who cuts us off in traffic? Or even thinks “you idiot!” What about disciplining children for being disrespectful? Or arguing with anyone for any reason ever?

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.


How about if we're sued? Or court ordered child support? Or if an insurance company paid a claim on our behalf for an at fault accident? What if we get a speeding ticket? Are we to pay above and beyond or double what we're asked to pay?
The World needs law, but a Christian doesn’t

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

What if we passed a beggar buy without giving him something? What if we didn't give to every charitable organization that asked us for money on the doorstep or by mail or telephone solicitation? If I asked anyone reading this to send me $100.00 could I expect a check in mail?
If you don’t have anything to give that question would not be hard to answer. (Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”


43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?


Do I really need to comment on how gravely short we all fall on this commandment?
Jesus told me that we were not to hurt anyone for any reason. Jesus also tells us that in his Word.

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I don’t know about anyone else…even if I got through every other verse noted above….this would be the absolute evidence of my total failure and undeniable need for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…

The Sermon on the Mount…what a wonderful and beautiful message from Jesus Christ to us regarding everything believers are to aspire to by the power of the Holy Spirit.

To me He’s saying…Here is the hard evidence that You NEED me. I am here!

That is right when the Holy Spirit leads a person, they will not sin. Galatians 5:16“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....”.

[AllTalkNoAction]

. . .
Let's seek the truth together and conform ourselves not to what we want to believe, but to the truth found in the NT which Jesus says will set us free..
Hello marke,
Jesus says "Except a man be born again, he cannot see (understand) the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)
Are you born again ?
If so, please tell me how you know, either here or by PM.

[HypnoToad]

Show me, using the Word of God, where Jesus told us that we, as Christians, have the right to hurt anyone. Be it in defense of us or someone else.
"For [government] is the minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for he doesn't bear the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath on him that does evil." - Rom.13:4.

Not "Jesus'" words, but I don't accept the view that any part of the NT that isn't Jesus speaking suddenly becomes less true. But Jesus also supported government authority when He stated, "give to Caesar what is Caesar's." (Mt.22:21).

The right to execute criminals was delegated by God to the government. A police officer, acting as a government agent, therefore has the God-given right to use deadly force against criminals.

[Giver]

"For [government] is the minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for he doesn't bear the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath on him that does evil." - Rom.13:4.

Not "Jesus'" words, but I don't accept the view that any part of the NT that isn't Jesus speaking suddenly becomes less true. But Jesus also supported government authority when He stated, "give to Caesar what is Caesar's." (Mt.22:21).

The right to execute criminals was delegated by God to the government. A police officer, acting as a government agent, therefore has the God-given right to use deadly force against criminals.
(Acts 4:19-20) “You must judge whether in God’s eyes it is right to listen to you and not to God. We cannot promise to stop proclaiming what we have seen and heard.”

[HypnoToad]

(Acts 4:19-20) “You must judge whether in God’s eyes it is right to listen to you and not to God. We cannot promise to stop proclaiming what we have seen and heard.”

Which means ... ?

[Giver]

Which means ... ?

It means no matter who tells you to do something, what God tells us to do, is what has to be done.

If our country’s Government, Church or anyone tells us to do something contradictory to what Jesus tell us to do we are to obey Jesus.

[HypnoToad]

It means no matter who tells you to do something, what God tells us to do, is what has to be done.

If our country’s Government, Church or anyone tells us to do something contradictory to what Jesus tell us to do we are to obey Jesus.
Ok, so are you agreeing or disagreeing what Paul wrote??

[Giver]

Ok, so are you agreeing or disagreeing what Paul wrote??
Paul and Peter both told us to obey government authority. As long as those authorities don’t tell us to do something that is against God’s Word.

[HypnoToad]

Paul and Peter both told us to obey government authority. As long as those authorities don’t tell us to do something that is against God’s Word.
Right, and God's Word gives the government the right to use deadly force on criminals.

[Giver]

Right, and God's Word gives the government the right to use deadly force on criminals.
That is right the government is the world. The world because it doesn’t have God needs to use force to maintain order. Christians are not part of the world. Christians obey God. God told Christians: (Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”
(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

[HypnoToad]

That is right the government is the world. The world because it doesn’t have God needs to use force to maintain order. Christians are not part of the world. Christians obey God. God told Christians: (Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”
(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Paul's writing on this particular issue makes no such distinction between a Christian or non-Christian government. Your examples apply to the private citizen, they are about vigilantism, not about government action.

[ANM29]

Amen. Truth is never afraid to stand up. :)

[Giver]

Paul's writing on this particular issue makes no such distinction between a Christian or non-Christian government. Your examples apply to the private citizen, they are about vigilantism, not about government action.
A Government is to make and enforce laws. Laws are not needed for Christians.

Your thinking goes right along with what the followers of Hitler would have liked people to believe. Hitler said he was a Christian. Do you really think there is a Christian world Government?

(1Timothy 1:8-11) “We know, of course, that the Law is good, but only provided it is treated like any law, in the understanding that laws are not framed for people who are good. On the contrary, they are for criminals and revolutionaries, for the irreligious and the wicked, for the sacrilegious and the irreverent; they are for people who kill their fathers or mothers and for murderers, for those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men, for liars and for perjurers and for everything else that is contrary to the sound teachings that goes with the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, the gospel that was entrusted to me.”

[Nadiine]

I like this.

Truth is never afraid to stand up. Truth is never afraid to stand there and have a discussion of truth, to have an open Bible and to study those issues. Truth is always ready to do that. Error is not.

I remember a thread I started "Where did Jesus give His followers permission to kill?".

How interesting it was. Thousands of people read it and thousands of people defended torture and killing, but in all those thousands of comments, not a single line of scripture to support the position that a Christian has any right to kill another person. And still they argued.

Many still argue wrong points today using out of context one liners. It's like looking at a tree and calling the tree a forest and ignoring all the other trees in the forest.

I have my bible. I know how to read. I am eager to be corrected. I am seeking the truth. I want to conform to His ways, not my ways or the ways of man and preachers of error.

My sword is sharp. Let us all help each other find the way through the narrow gate. Don't be afraid to stand corrected. This is our duty... help each other find the way. A blind man following a blind man will both fall into a ditch. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Don't be a horse that refuses to drink.

Let's seek the truth together and conform ourselves not to what we want to believe, but to the truth found in the NT which Jesus says will set us free.

Many are called, but few are chosen. Let's all be among those chosen.

Yes, but good luck pointing out which side is wrong -- you can't convince the ones who ARE wrong that they are... anyone reading this will take THEIR SIDE of the interpretation as the "true" one and that they have the right teaching.

Only God can take blinders off, I've learned that. Even Jesus' teachings to the Pharisees and those like them didn't cause them to see anything even when truth was told straight from God Himself in their midst. :doh:
We won't reach many people - no matter how the bible ends up contradicting itself thru their created false doctrines.

Is this where I now claim that a country has the right to defend itself with a military? lol :sorry:

[Zecryphon]

A Government is to make and enforce laws. Laws are not needed for Christians.

Your thinking goes right along with what the followers of Hitler would have liked people to believe. Hitler said he was a Christian. Do you really think there is a Christian world Government?

(1Timothy 1:8-11) “We know, of course, that the Law is good, but only provided it is treated like any law, in the understanding that laws are not framed for people who are good. On the contrary, they are for criminals and revolutionaries, for the irreligious and the wicked, for the sacrilegious and the irreverent; they are for people who kill their fathers or mothers and for murderers, for those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men, for liars and for perjurers and for everything else that is contrary to the sound teachings that goes with the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, the gospel that was entrusted to me.”

"A Government is to make and enforce laws. Laws are not needed for Christians."

Yeah, try using that as a defense when you stand before a judge, and let me know how far you get. LOL

[HypnoToad]

A Government is to make and enforce laws. Laws are not needed for Christians.

Your thinking goes right along with what the followers of Hitler would have liked people to believe. Hitler said he was a Christian. Do you really think there is a Christian world Government?

(1Timothy 1:8-11) “We know, of course, that the Law is good, but only provided it is treated like any law, in the understanding that laws are not framed for people who are good. On the contrary, they are for criminals and revolutionaries, for the irreligious and the wicked, for the sacrilegious and the irreverent; they are for people who kill their fathers or mothers and for murderers, for those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men, for liars and for perjurers and for everything else that is contrary to the sound teachings that goes with the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, the gospel that was entrusted to me.”

Who the heck is talking about a "Christian world government"???

Scripture directly gives government (referred to as "God's minister") the authority to use deadly force against criminals. It is totally asinine to claim that a government agent is being "unchristian" by exercising the authority given to him by God.

And further, the Nazi/Jew thing does not apply - the Jews were not criminals, so the government was not acting as God's minister in that case.

[Giver]

Who the heck is talking about a "Christian world government"???

Scripture directly gives government (referred to as "God's minister") the authority to use deadly force against criminals. It is totally asinine to claim that a government agent is being "unchristian" by exercising the authority given to him by God.

And further, the Nazi/Jew thing does not apply - the Jews were not criminals, so the government was not acting as God's minister in that case.
How can you not see what Peter told his government when they told him to do something that went against what God told him to do? Jesus told us to love our enemies. Do you really believe that by killing your countries enemies that you are loving them?

By the way as far as Hitler’s Government was concerned the Jews were criminals. You do know that there were many other people, who were not Jews, who, in the world’s eyes, were not criminals either, but they died right along with the Jews.

[Nadiine]

"A Government is to make and enforce laws. Laws are not needed for Christians."

Yeah, try using that as a defense when you stand before a judge, and let me know how far you get. LOL
Then ask him to define what a real "Christian" is. :|

I'd also add that laws protect us too - in purchasing things, thru divorces, & custody cases, and lots of other things we do in every day life.

[HypnoToad]

How can you not see what Peter told his government when they told him to do something that went against what God told him to do?
Doesn't apply here, as deadly force against criminals is not against what God says.

Jesus told us to love our enemies. Do you really believe that by killing your countries enemies that you are loving them?
Punishment does not preclude love.

By the way as far as Hitler’s Government was concerned the Jews were criminals. You do know that there were many other people, who were not Jews, who, in the world’s eyes, were not criminals either, but they died right along with the Jews.
I'm talking about who God's Word considers to be criminals. You seem to be trying to build a strawman. I never stated that since government has the authority to use deadly force, that means it has the right to do so unjustly.

[Zecryphon]

Then ask him to define what a real "Christian" is. :|

I'd also add that laws protect us too - in purchasing things, thru divorces, & custody cases, and lots of other things we do in every day life.
I wonder what a guy like this does when a crimminal, someone whom does not follow the laws, breaks into his home and threatens his life with deadly force. I have a feeling his God-given instinct of self-survival would kick in and he'd defend himself using deadly force if neccessary.

[Nadiine]

I wonder what a guy like this does when a crimminal, someone whom does not follow the laws, breaks into his home and threatens his life with deadly force. I have a feeling his God-given instinct of self-survival would kick in and he'd defend himself using deadly force if neccessary.
one would only HOPE so zech, one would only HOPE! If my husband didn't bother to try to protect me, I'd have to do it myself. (and I'd have some issues later after I saved his life). heh :help:

*loading trusty bedside pistol* lol :ebil: :ebil:

[Giver]

Doesn't apply here, as deadly force against criminals is not against what God says.
Show me where Jesus told us that?



Punishment does not preclude love.

So killing someone is punishment. You are telling me; that means you don’t need to love him or her? Man you are really digging deep to find the ingredients in which to water down the Word of God.


I'm talking about who God's Word considers to be criminals. You seem to be trying to build a strawman. I never stated that since government has the authority to use deadly force, that means it has the right to do so unjustly.

Well are those people in Iraq that the US Army killed criminals? Did they have a trial and had they been found guilty? How many people in the US arm forces call them selves Christians? I believe there are a lot of people who call themselves Christians who are killing innocent people. The pope doesn’t even call the war just.

Even using your watered down understanding of the Word of God, the present war is evil.

[Nadiine]

How can you not see what Peter told his government when they told him to do something that went against what God told him to do? Jesus told us to love our enemies. Do you really believe that by killing your countries enemies that you are loving them?
Going out to kill people with false, unjust or NO legal cause is a sin. For sure.
If you aren't PROTECTING LIFE by the act of war, then it's wrong imo. Everything hinges on the motive behind it.

[HypnoToad]

Show me where Jesus told us that?
I've already shown where Paul wrote that. Or, are you someone who believes only direct quotes of Jesus are Scripture?

So killing someone is punishment.
Yes, killing a criminal is punishment. Why wouldn't it be?

You are telling me; that means you don’t need to love him or her? Man you are really digging deep to find the ingredients in which to water down the Word of God.
Who said you don't need to love them? Do you not know what "preclude" means?

Well are those people in Iraq that the US Army killed criminals? Did they have a trial and had they been found guilty? How many people in the US arm forces call them selves Christians? I believe there are a lot of people who call themselves Christians who are killing innocent people. The pope doesn’t even call the war just.

Even using your watered down understanding of the Word of God, the present war is evil.
Sorry, I don't see the Iraq war as the subject of the OP. Let's not go off on tangents now. (And I don't care what the Pope says, I'm not Roman Catholic.)

[Giver]

I've already shown where Paul wrote that. Or, are you someone who believes only direct quotes of Jesus are Scripture?
No, but Paul wouldn’t contradict Jesus.


Yes, killing a criminal is punishment. Why wouldn't it be?
You narrowed this discussion down to killing criminals. My argument is including all killing by Christians. What the law does with criminals again hasn’t anything to do with a Christian. Did you read what Paul said to Timothy? (1Timothy 1:8-11) “We know, of course, that the Law is good, but only provided it is treated like any law, in the understanding that laws are not framed for people who are good. On the contrary, they are for criminals and revolutionaries, for the irreligious and the wicked, for the sacrilegious and the irreverent; they are for people who kill their fathers or mothers and for murderers, for those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men, for liars and for perjurers and for everything else that is contrary to the sound teachings that goes with the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, the gospel that was entrusted to me.”



Who said you don't need to love them? Do you not know what "preclude" means?


Yes I know what preclude means. Jesus said to love our enemies. Are you telling me that when the state kills a person, it is loving, that person? We are to obey Jesus. That is loving Jesus. He told us: (Matthew 10:37-39) “Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.” If someone kills someone else to save their daughter, Jesus said that person isn’t worthy of him.


Sorry, I don't see the Iraq war as the subject of the OP. Let's not go off on tangents now. (And I don't care what the Pope says, I'm not Roman Catholic.)


Can’t stand the heat so you are getting out of the kitchen right?

[Cris413]

Sorry, I don't see the Iraq war as the subject of the OP. Let's not go off on tangents now. (And I don't care what the Pope says, I'm not Roman Catholic.)I wouldn't be absolutely certain of that...

I've seen many threads that start out like this...just a leading "hint" then sit back and watch the brouhaha begin... to exactly the intended agenda...political platforming...

just an observation from past experience...;)

[Nadiine]

eventually the horns appear if there's an agenda behind the thread - I agree with you, I've seen it alot too.
I don't mind controversial subjects - people might as well just come out with it & get it over with. :cool: :P

[Zecryphon]

one would only HOPE so zech, one would only HOPE! If my husband didn't bother to try to protect me, I'd have to do it myself. (and I'd have some issues later after I saved his life). heh :help:

*loading trusty bedside pistol* lol :ebil: :ebil:
What kinda heat ya packin'? I've got a Glock 23 .40 caliber with 13 round clips, loaded and ready to go. I've also got that handy-dandy CCW permit too. When they found out I had a concealed carry permit in the LCMS forum, one of the guys over there called the the "LCMS Gunslinger". Kinda wish I could change my screen name on here now. LOL

[Nadiine]

What kinda heat ya packin'? I've got a Glock 23 .40 caliber with 13 round clips, loaded and ready to go. I've also got that handy-dandy CCW permit too. When they found out I had a concealed carry permit in the LCMS forum, one of the guys over there called the the "LCMS Gunslinger". Kinda wish I could change my screen name on here now. LOL
LOL, ya that would be a kool name Zech - but I like zech too. I don't know what I have... let me go look.
brb

[Nadiine]

LOL, ya that would be a kool name Zech - but I like zech too. I don't know what I have... let me go look.
brb
it was a Bday present last year, a guy sold it to my husband and it was his mom's. My oldest brother has the real arsenal - he does serious hunting (unfortunately) -
It's a little pistol for girly girls , Winchester 25 auto?
I dunno, I just know to pull the top back, Aim and FIRE.
lolol

I'll have to look up that glock & see what it looks like.

Protection is always important, for people and a country **

[HypnoToad]

No, but Paul wouldn’t contradict Jesus.
And there is no contradiction. Jesus is talking to the individual, Paul is talking about government - not the same thing.

You narrowed this discussion down to killing criminals. My argument is including all killing by Christians.
Yes, I narrowed it down. The original argument was that ALL killing is wrong. I only need to show one example (killing of criminals) to disprove that kind of claim.

1Timothy 1:8-11) “We know, of course, that the Law is good, but only provided it is treated like any law, in the understanding that laws are not framed for people who are good. On the contrary, they are for criminals and revolutionaries, for the irreligious and the wicked, for the sacrilegious and the irreverent; they are for people who kill their fathers or mothers and for murderers, for those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men, for liars and for perjurers and for everything else that is contrary to the sound teachings that goes with the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, the gospel that was entrusted to me.”
Well, Jesus said no one was good. So who does that leave?

Yes I know what preclude means. Jesus said to love our enemies. Are you telling me that when the state kills a person, it is loving, that person? We are to obey Jesus. That is loving Jesus.
Not sure the "state" is capable of "feeling" anything. Which means killing them isn't not loving them. Regardless, there's nothing contradictory with loving someone while excepting their just punishment.

He told us: (Matthew 10:37-39) “Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.” If someone kills someone else to save their daughter, Jesus said that person isn’t worthy of him.
And since God's Word gives government the right to use deadly force, I am supporting what Jesus wants.

Can’t stand the heat so you are getting out of the kitchen right?
Who said I was leaving?? All I said was for you to stay on topic.

[Svt4Him]

Not all killing is murder...but I love the verse in the op, that's my tag below.

[Giver]

And there is no contradiction. Jesus is talking to the individual, Paul is talking about government - not the same thing.
(2 Peter 3:15-16) “Think of our Lord’s patience as your opportunity to be saved: our brother Paul, who is so dear to us, told you this when he wrote to you with the wisdom that is his special gift. He always writes like this when he deals with this sort of subject, and this makes some points in his letter hard to understand; these are the points that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture a fatal thing for them to do.


Yes, I narrowed it down. The original argument was that ALL killing is wrong. I only need to show one example (killing of criminals) to disprove that kind of claim.


Well, Jesus said no one was good. So who does that leave?

We are left with people who are filled with the Holy Spirit. Galatians 5:16“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....”.



Not sure the "state" is capable of "feeling" anything. Which means killing them isn't not loving them. Regardless, there's nothing contradictory with loving someone while excepting their just punishment.
?????

And since God's Word gives government the right to use deadly force, I am supporting what Jesus wants.

[b]
Who said I was leaving?? All I said was for you to stay on topic.

[COLOR=#3366ff][FONT=Arial]I think that is just a meager excuse on you part.

[marke]

So, you're saying you believe a police officer sins if he uses deadly force to stop, for example, someone who's about to murder other people?
What does your bible say? Exo. 20:13 was the original commandment.

Maybe a follower of Jesus should chose a different occupation that would not go against the teachings of Jesus.

God bless.

[marke]

The world has a right to defend itself using force. A Christian isn’t part of the World.

You don’t need to ask Marke. You should ask Jesus.

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

The Giver has it right.

We didn't write the scripture, but it is our duty to follow it.

God bless

Marke

[marke]

God does not consider self defense or the protecting of one's family (even until death resulting) to be a sin. God has repeatedly used men to promote His plan, often bringing death upon many.

"MOTIVE", people... motives of the WHYS we DO are the important and Godly issues.

His,
Rev J
Wrong.

Did Stephen do as you are advocating? NO. Did Paul. NO. Did Jesus. NO

Three times you're out. In fact, nowhere in the NT do you find anything like what you want to believe. The NEW agreement in in force now, not the old.

Jesus came to free us from the fear of death. If you live in fear, you'll take your place with the unbelievers Rev. J.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I didn't write it, but I can read it. Hope you will change your mind and lead your flock to follow Jesus and HIS WORD.

God bless

[marke]

Show me, using the Word of God, where Jesus told us that we, as Christians, have the right to hurt anyone. Be it in defense of us or someone else.
I'd like to see that to jive4005.

Defend your position in the NT or repent.

[HypnoToad]

(2 Peter 3:15-16) “Think of our Lord’s patience as your opportunity to be saved: our brother Paul, who is so dear to us, told you this when he wrote to you with the wisdom that is his special gift. He always writes like this when he deals with this sort of subject, and this makes some points in his letter hard to understand; these are the points that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture a fatal thing for them to do.
Yes, it's quite easy to claim something like, "well, it's just too hard for you to understand." I could post the same verse to you. A claim like that is meaningless.

We are left with people who are filled with the Holy Spirit. Galatians 5:16“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....”.But you said the law is just for people who aren't good. Jesus said no one was good. Being Christian doesn't suddenly mean we shouldn't follow laws anymore.

?????You'll have to expound on what your difficulty is.

I think that is just a meager excuse on you part.You can think the moon is made of cheese for all that matters.

What does your bible say? Exo. 20:13 was the original commandment.
Yes, it's easy to take something out of context. God said "don't kill" there, but shortly after, He also gave instructions to use the death penalty for many offenses. Is it your claim God, therefore, contradicted His own law?

Maybe a follower of Jesus should chose a different occupation that would not go against the teachings of Jesus.And I'm still waiting for anyone to show how the government exercising it's God-given authority to use deadly force against criminals is against God's Word.

Did Stephen do as you are advocating? NO. Did Paul. NO. Did Jesus. NONone of them were government officials. Like the others here, you are confusing the individual with the government.


Originally Posted by Giver http://www3.foru.ms/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=39073965#post39073965)
Show me, using the Word of God, where Jesus told us that we, as Christians, have the right to hurt anyone. Be it in defense of us or someone else.

I'd like to see that to jive4005.

Defend your position in the NT or repent.
I've already given the NT Scripture where Paul states the government has authority from God to use deadly force against criminals.

[Nadiine]

The Giver has it right.

We didn't write the scripture, but it is our duty to follow it.

God bless

Marke
well then, follow it to your possible deaths. so be it.

Luke 22:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=22&verse=36&version=49&context=verse)
35 And He said to them, "When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" They said, "No, nothing."
36 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

I'd also mention, that LOVE is not about hurting others, LOVE IS ABOUT PROTECTING THOSE YOU LOVE.

How can one say they "love" their children, yet would let a pedophile kidnap them becuz God said not to harm others!!!!!!!!!!!!
What of your LOVE for the innocent victim? What of your love for your wife or family? It isn't love if you refuse to protect your own family & loved ones when you could choose to do so.

I find it repugnant and disgusting to be so passive that you'de refuse to protect another life.

[Zecryphon]

well then, follow it to your possible deaths. so be it.

Luke 22:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=22&verse=36&version=49&context=verse)
35 And He said to them, "When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" They said, "No, nothing."
36 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

I'd also mention, that LOVE is not about hurting others, LOVE IS ABOUT PROTECTING THOSE YOU LOVE.

How can one say they "love" their children, yet would let a pedophile kidnap them becuz God said not to harm others!!!!!!!!!!!!
What of your LOVE for the innocent victim? What of your love for your wife or family? It isn't love if you refuse to protect your own family & loved ones when you could choose to do so.

I find it repugnant and disgusting to be so passive that you'de refuse to protect another life.
Here's an excerpt from an essay I've found online that deals both with the apsect of Christians in the military and the use of deadly force in self-defense.

NEW TESTAMENT TIMES
In the first century, we find believing Israelites who were soldiers (they may have been Romans who converted to Judaism, or Jews under the service of Herod Antipas). When the people came to be baptized by John, they would ask him questions about whether they should make changes in their lives (Luke 3:10-18), and he would give them the same kind of advice that Jesus later gave. When soldiers asked him, "And what about us, what shall we do?" he answered, "Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages." (Luke 3:14). This would have been John's perfect opportunity to tell them to resign from the military, but he counseled them instead to be content with their jobs.
In Acts chapter 10 we find Cornelius, who is a centurion of the Roman army, described as a devout man who feared God and prayed continually. In verse 35, the apostle Peter implies that he is a doer of what is right. He becomes a believer in Jesus and is baptized, apparently remaining a centurion in the army. There is no mention in the NT of any soldiers who were admonished to leave their profession to become a Christian. The apostle Paul, in fact, counsels new converts to "remain in that condition in which he was called" (1 Cor. 7:24).

The Lord Jesus only appears to have said two things that deal directly with self-defense and warfare, and these statements appear to be contradictory at first glance. On the night of his betrayal, knowing that he would soon be parted from his disciples, he told them, And he said to them, "When I sent you out without purse and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" And they said, "No, nothing." And he said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one." (Luke 22:35, 36)

The second statement he made later that night, when Peter struck at the slave of the high priest with his sword: Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then shall the Scripture be fulfilled that it must happen this way? (Matt. 26:52-54)
Why did Jesus tell them to take up provisions that would equip them for new conditions in the ministry, including a sword for self-defense, and then shortly thereafter tell Peter not to use the sword?
The key lies in the context of each statement. Peter was told not to use the sword, because he was acting in the flesh, forgetting that Jesus told him he would have to be arrested and suffer death. Peter did not see the purpose in Jesus' arrest and death. He was acting out of his flesh rather than from wisdom. Those who live out of their flesh, Jesus intimated, with its violent and unbridled passions, will die at the hands of the same. Yet, Peter and the others were told to take up swords and money pouches and an outer garment for specific reasons (not just out of symbolism; as he would have only mentioned swords and not pouches if this was the case).

The whole of the essay can be found here:

http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/war.htm

While the truth may not be afraid to stand up, it seems there are a few in this thread who are afraid to stand up. Thank God I'm not one of them.

[marke]

Matthew 5:27-48


27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

I would imagine…if we were to take this as literally as some seem to be taking v 39…every believer on the planet should only have one eye and one hand...at best

31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Divorced for any reason other than adultery? Should we lop off the hand we signed our divorce papers with?

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

What about those called to Jury Duty? Subpoenaed for a court case? Anyone who has ever made a promise? The Hasidic Jews …will not swear but they can make a promise…fine hair to split IMHO.

37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

How about defending one's actions or thoughts to anyone with more than a yes or a no? Or promoted their thoughts beyond what was absolutely necessary…or that participate in these forums?

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

What is evil? What evil is Jesus talking about? Is He only talking about killing? What if we scream at anyone who cuts us off in traffic? Or even thinks “you idiot!” What about disciplining children for being disrespectful? Or arguing with anyone for any reason ever?

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

How about if we're sued? Or court ordered child support? Or if an insurance company paid a claim on our behalf for an at fault accident? What if we get a speeding ticket? Are we to pay above and beyond or double what we're asked to pay?

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

What if we passed a beggar buy without giving him something? What if we didn't give to every charitable organization that asked us for money on the doorstep or by mail or telephone solicitation? If I asked anyone reading this to send me $100.00 could I expect a check in mail?

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Do I really need to comment on how gravely short we all fall on this commandment?

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I don’t know about anyone else…even if I got through every other verse noted above….this would be the absolute evidence of my total failure and undeniable need for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…

The Sermon on the Mount…what a wonderful and beautiful message from Jesus Christ to us regarding everything believers are to aspire to by the power of the Holy Spirit.

To me He’s saying…Here is the hard evidence that You NEED me. I am here!
Your icon says "Trust in Jesus" and yet you give every excuse not to follow the most basic teachings.

That's very confusing.

But at the end you write:

"I don’t know about anyone else…even if I got through every other verse noted above….this would be the absolute evidence of my total failure and undeniable need for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…

The Sermon on the Mount…what a wonderful and beautiful message from Jesus Christ to us regarding everything believers are to aspire to by the power of the Holy Spirit.

To me He’s saying…Here is the hard evidence that You NEED me. I am here!"

And there you have it.

Conform yourself to the teachings, don't discount or ignore or justify them away just because you find them difficult to follow. THESE ARE THE TEACHINGS.

It's not the hearers of the WORD who are saved, but the doers of the WORD according to Jesus. Many are called, but few are chosen. You can make every excuse for not following them, but instead of earning salvation, you'll earn your place with the unbelievers.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

God bless

[Nadiine]

Your icon says "Trust in Jesus" and yet you give every excuse not to follow the most basic teachings.
I can "trust" Jesus by refusing to eat too; that God will put food right into my mouth - or miraculously change my bodily needs to NOT NEEDING ANY FOOD to sustain my life.
I can also sit in my house needing a Job to pay my rent - yet refuse to go job hunting; "trusting" that God will GIVE ME a good job as I sit on my butt doing Nothing.

How far do you want to carry "trust" of God to tempting Him?
JW's use this tactic to deny blood transfusions.

there's a difference between trust and stupidity.

[marke]

It means no matter who tells you to do something, what God tells us to do, is what has to be done.

If our country’s Government, Church or anyone tells us to do something contradictory to what Jesus tell us to do we are to obey Jesus.
Giver has it right again.

God Bless

[Zecryphon]

Your icon says "Trust in Jesus" and yet you give every excuse not to follow the most basic teachings.

That's very confusing.

But at the end you write:

"I don’t know about anyone else…even if I got through every other verse noted above….this would be the absolute evidence of my total failure and undeniable need for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…

The Sermon on the Mount…what a wonderful and beautiful message from Jesus Christ to us regarding everything believers are to aspire to by the power of the Holy Spirit.

To me He’s saying…Here is the hard evidence that You NEED me. I am here!"

And there you have it.

Conform yourself to the teachings, don't discount or ignore or justify them away just because you find them difficult to follow. THESE ARE THE TEACHINGS.

It's not the hearers of the WORD who are saved, but the doers of the WORD according to Jesus. Many are called, but few are chosen. You can make every excuse for not following them, but instead of earning salvation, you'll earn your place with the unbelievers.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

God bless
"It's not the hearers of the WORD who are saved, but the doers of the WORD according to Jesus. Many are called, but few are chosen. You can make every excuse for not following them, but instead of earning salvation, you'll earn your place with the unbelievers."

Earning salvation? And yet you PRIDE yourself on understanding the most basic teachings of Jesus. The most basic teaching is this, there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. Faith and salvation are a gift from God and not the result of anything we do. See John 14:6 and Epehsians 2:8-9. Once you've figured those out then and only then will I believe you understand what you read in the Bible.

[marke]

Paul's writing on this particular issue makes no such distinction between a Christian or non-Christian government. Your examples apply to the private citizen, they are about vigilantism, not about government action.
The OP was speaking to Christianity, not governments.

There is no such thing as a "Christian" government until Jesus returns and takes command.

Don't be confused. We are speaking about Christianity.

God bless

[marke]

"For [government] is the minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for he doesn't bear the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath on him that does evil." - Rom.13:4.

Not "Jesus'" words, but I don't accept the view that any part of the NT that isn't Jesus speaking suddenly becomes less true. But Jesus also supported government authority when He stated, "give to Caesar what is Caesar's." (Mt.22:21).

The right to execute criminals was delegated by God to the government. A police officer, acting as a government agent, therefore has the God-given right to use deadly force against criminals.
A police officer who is NOT a Christian may do this. A person professing to be a Christian may NOT do this.

There is a difference.

God bless

[marke]

"A Government is to make and enforce laws. Laws are not needed for Christians."

Yeah, try using that as a defense when you stand before a judge, and let me know how far you get. LOL
If one acted like a Christian, chances are they wouldn't be standing in front of a Judge.

Something to think about. Eh?

God bless

[marke]

Who the heck is talking about a "Christian world government"???

Scripture directly gives government (referred to as "God's minister") the authority to use deadly force against criminals. It is totally asinine to claim that a government agent is being "unchristian" by exercising the authority given to him by God.

And further, the Nazi/Jew thing does not apply - the Jews were not criminals, so the government was not acting as God's minister in that case.
So now we get to pick and choose when government is working for God and when it isn't?

I can see that you are confused. You've been saying it is and now you say it isn't.

To clairify. "Not a sparrow falls without His leave" Everything unfolds as the Father desires. Period.

God bless

[marke]

I wonder what a guy like this does when a crimminal, someone whom does not follow the laws, breaks into his home and threatens his life with deadly force. I have a feeling his God-given instinct of self-survival would kick in and he'd defend himself using deadly force if neccessary.
I can see by your many writings that you do wonder.

Trust Jesus to give you eternal life.

Fear is the mind killer. Learn to trust Jesus and you will not fear.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

God bless

[Zecryphon]

If one acted like a Christian, chances are they wouldn't be standing in front of a Judge.

Something to think about. Eh?

God bless
Well tell that to the Christian who thinks that 'laws are not needed for Christians.' Someone who lives life with that mindset will not follow the laws that have been passed and will wind up in front of a judge.

[Zecryphon]

I can see by your many writings that you do wonder.

Trust Jesus to give you eternal life.

Fear is the mind killer. Learn to trust Jesus and you will not fear.

Rev 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

God bless
I was very specific in that post as to what I do wonder about. But instead of dealing with what I've actually written you have to try and smear me in some way. Is that how you exhibit proper Christian living to others? Moving on, I do trust Jesus to give me eternal life and salvation from sin. You on the other hand think it must be earned through works. Take a look at what you write on these boards and contrast that with what you say you believe, marke. You're not trusting Jesus as much as you'd like everyone to think you are.

[HypnoToad]

The OP was speaking to Christianity, not governments.
Governments are made up of people, including Christians. If "the government" does something, it's people, including Christians, who do those things.

Don't be confused. We are speaking about Christianity.

I haven't been confused about the topic.

A police officer who is NOT a Christian may do this. A person professing to be a Christian may NOT do this.

There is a difference.
So you claim, yet no one has offered substantial reason why. No one has shown that the government does not have the God-given right to use deadly force. No one has shown that a Christian can't be a government officer and use that authority.

So now we get to pick and choose when government is working for God and when it isn't?
"Picking and choosing"?? I don't see how following the guidelines given in Scripture is "picking and choosing". You honestly don't see a difference between being a murderer or rapist, and being Jewish?

I can see that you are confused. You've been saying it is and now you say it isn't.
I've done no such thing. I've said the government has authority, and they don't have the right to abuse that authority - there's no contradiction in that. Scripture expressly states the authority to use capital punishment is for use against criminals. It never says that authority is to be used indiscriminately against non-criminals. You guys persist in the strawman of mixing those together.

It's so easy to just say, "well, you're just confused." Yet, you can't back your words with any substantial reasoning.

[marke]

What kinda heat ya packin'? I've got a Glock 23 .40 caliber with 13 round clips, loaded and ready to go. I've also got that handy-dandy CCW permit too. When they found out I had a concealed carry permit in the LCMS forum, one of the guys over there called the the "LCMS Gunslinger". Kinda wish I could change my screen name on here now. LOL
So the "Do not kill" commandment doesn't matter to you? You sound ready to use this thing on others.

Where exactly in scripture does Jesus give you or any other follower permission to harm another person?

Don't bother looking. This question has gone around and around and the answer is no where. You are setting yourself up to do something totally contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

Any of the Apostles, by their actions or examples show you this is how a follower of Jesus should be? Trusting in his weapon instead of God. No, they all trusted God, and God alone to lead them through their lives.

How many times did Paul get thrown in prison, beaten, whipped and abused? Many, many. How many times did he defend himself of advocate defending himself or others in scripture? He didn't. None. Zip. Nada. Not once. Did Stephen fight back. No. Nor did any other Apostle. He and they had faith that God was in control and turned adversity into benefits for the Lord Jesus whatever the circumstance.

If you are fearful for your life, you have already lost it.
If you use that thing, you may lose your court case here and lose your life in this world too.

Let go and let God. Then Jesus truly becomes the Prince of Peace.

God Bless

[marke]

Yes, it's quite easy to claim something like, "well, it's just too hard for you to understand." I could post the same verse to you. A claim like that is meaningless.

But you said the law is just for people who aren't good. Jesus said no one was good. Being Christian doesn't suddenly mean we shouldn't follow laws anymore.

You'll have to expound on what your difficulty is.

You can think the moon is made of cheese for all that matters.


Yes, it's easy to take something out of context. God said "don't kill" there, but shortly after, He also gave instructions to use the death penalty for many offenses. Is it your claim God, therefore, contradicted His own law?

And I'm still waiting for anyone to show how the government exercising it's God-given authority to use deadly force against criminals is against God's Word.

None of them were government officials. Like the others here, you are confusing the individual with the government.


I've already given the NT Scripture where Paul states the government has authority from God to use deadly force against criminals.
"Yes, it's easy to take something out of context. God said "don't kill" there, but shortly after, He also gave instructions to use the death penalty for many offenses. Is it your claim God, therefore, contradicted His own law?"

Now that, was a great question. And I can't answer that? I'd love to hear the answers too.

But let's make sure we are talking apples to apples in this thread. Two things are going on here. Your point is the government can do as it pleases and you are correct. However, we can see that this government is not operating under guidance of Christian principles.

So when a military person or contractor is told to torture somebody, a person professing the Christ as Lord and Master would know that this fruit/action/deed or whatever you want to call it is in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus and that they will get what they give and would decline to do such a thing. Orders or no orders. A follower of Christ would not do such a thing.

It would be much easier not to put yourself in that position. If you must serve your country, do so as a grave digger or medic, not an instrument of death and destruction.

My point is you don't take a job in government or even outside government that conflicts with your basic morals by which you profess. In this case, we are using Jesus as the model. "I am the way".

The way to where? This is what is important, the kingdom of Heaven and none of us will get there doing actions/deeds or fruit which go against the Christ or by advocating misguided non-Christian actions.

Rev 21:7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

God bless

[marke]

well then, follow it to your possible deaths. so be it.

Luke 22:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=22&verse=36&version=49&context=verse)
35 And He said to them, "When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" They said, "No, nothing."
36 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

I'd also mention, that LOVE is not about hurting others, LOVE IS ABOUT PROTECTING THOSE YOU LOVE.

How can one say they "love" their children, yet would let a pedophile kidnap them becuz God said not to harm others!!!!!!!!!!!!
What of your LOVE for the innocent victim? What of your love for your wife or family? It isn't love if you refuse to protect your own family & loved ones when you could choose to do so.

I find it repugnant and disgusting to be so passive that you'de refuse to protect another life.
I didn't say I wouldn't protect myself or those whom I love. I would probably fail in following the example of non-violence.

I would not however, seek to kill my enemy as this is against the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless

[HypnoToad]

But let's make sure we are talking apples to apples in this thread. Two things are going on here. Your point is the government can do as it pleases and you are correct.
Wrong. I never said they can do "as they please".

However, we can see that this government is not operating under guidance of Christian principles.I've already stated a government does not have the right to abuse their authority.

You are trying to claim ALL government killing is "unchristian" by constantly showing one example of abuse of the authority. It's like trying to argue Christians are sinning by driving cars, because someone did a hit and run once.

So when a military person or contractor is told to torture somebody, a person professing the Christ as Lord and Master would know that this fruit/action/deed or whatever you want to call it is in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus and that they will get what they give and would decline to do such a thing. Orders or no orders. A follower of Christ would not do such a thing.Again, this is an abuse of the government's authority and is not what I'm talking about.

It would be much easier not to put yourself in that position. If you must serve your country, do so as a grave digger or medic, not an instrument of death and destruction.Is that how you view police officers? As "insruments of death"? Nice. I'll have to tell my dad (retired cop) and my brother (deputy sheriff) that the next time I see them.

My point is you don't take a job in government or even outside government that conflicts with your basic morals by which you profess. In this case, we are using Jesus as the model. "I am the way".And the government lawfully carrying out their God-given authority does not conflict with Godly morals.

[Nadiine]

Is that how you view police officers? As "insruments of death"? Nice. I'll have to tell my dad (retired cop) and my brother (deputy sheriff) that the next time I see them.

Boy I'd hope that's not what he means... Police Officers KEEP THE PEACE in society. That sometimes might have to entail taking life, but they're lives are on the line every day they show up to work.

Picture your neighborhood and the entire city without ANY police officers. You'de have sheer anarchy and who knows what else.

[JHM]

"Truth is never afraid to stand up" - Very well, since I am leaving this site permanently anyway, the truth : I think the world would be a better place if all of those of you who believe it is right to kill for whatever reasons you believe it is right to kill for, and especially those of you who own and carry guns, would all get together in a locked room; and do your good deed for the day.

[HypnoToad]

It seems to me that Marke and Giver are voices crying out in the wilderness; - that what they say is being roundly rejected by the majority here. And yet what they preach is the gentler side of the scriptures. Is not the base of Christianity "Love thy neighbor"?



So, when God commanded the death penalty, it was for people He didn't love anymore?

[Nadiine]

It seems to me that Marke and Giver are voices crying out in the wilderness; - that what they say is being roundly rejected by the majority here. And yet what they preach is the gentler side of the scriptures. Is not the base of Christianity "Love thy neighbor"?.

What is LOVE but to also PROTECT THE INNOCENT? And that may also entail violence to protect them from the violent.

I'm all for the "gentler side of scripture" (in fact, I prefer it), BUT DON'T WARP & CONTORT IT into complete apathy for the sake of "love".
The Pharisees were guilty of this actually - they put law BEFORE LOVE.
In the case of a total passivist, they would put their personal intepretation of LOVE over love and let someone be killed in order to love the murderer! :doh:

Love of WHOM? The orphan and the widow? or the murderer or thief who comes to harm the orphan or widow?

(i didn't get a chance to read the entire thread - but that's how I view passivism - if it fits the discussion)

[DeanM]

"No more war. People would no longer be killed by one another outside of Texas, where lethal injection would continue no matter what God said."

-Lawson Alan from "Lunch with God"

Note: this is out of context, and supposed to be taken as humor. No Texans were harmed in the writing of this post.

[JHM]

Bye Now

[Nadiine]

oh whatever --
so go ahead and refuse to protect your family or loved ones from predators....
refuse to protect yourself -- it's your choice.

You wouldn't even be sitting within a FREE country if you weren't protected by OTHERS' blood - others who were brave enough and sacrificial for YOUR benefit to sit there.

Thankfully in life I have choices - and I'd have nothing to do w/ such people w/ this level of apathy & passivism. I find it legalistic at it's height.

[JHM]

Bye Now

[HypnoToad]

To those of you questioning me; I think the answer is two part. The first is "turn the other cheek";
Already addressed, to which your only response is to simply repeat the phrase over and over, without ever providing reasoning.

Better I think to die in service of God's will than to shirk and remain alive
And, once again, carrying out God-given authority is, by definition, "in service of God's will". And again, your only response is to give us these little rhetorical tidbits devoid of reasoning against the opposing view.

[JHM]

Bye Now

[mont974x4]

I trust my King completely. That includes trusting that He gave me a brain, decision making skills, common sense, and other means to process data and make informed decisions. He does heal, and sometimes He uses doctors and medical science to do that. He is just and righteous and at times He uses men to exact justice.


To claim that all killing is wrong denies God's righteous and just nature. It means God Himself has sinned by disobeying His own commands. It assumes God is either a liar or an evil being that places His creations in a catch 22 where they can not possibly obey Him.

[HypnoToad]

I gave you my reasoning.
... with nothing but rhetoric.

Post #3, #66, and #70 - all of your posts in this thread - all rhetoric.

[Nadiine]

I trust my King completely. That includes trusting that He gave me a brain, decision making skills, common sense, and other means to process data and make informed decisions. He does heal, and sometimes He uses doctors and medical science to do that. He is just and righteous and at times He uses men to exact justice.


To claim that all killing is wrong denies God's righteous and just nature. It means God Himself has sinned by disobeying His own commands. It assumes God is either a liar or an evil being that places His creations in a catch 22 where they can not possibly obey Him.
This level of passivism isn't unlike the JW's who refuse blood transfusions becuz of their literal approach in some scriptures to the point where they'll let people DIE.
Sorry, but I find this legalistic at the very core; legalism has many aspects - imho, this is one of them.

[JHM]

Bye Now

[mont974x4]

Ummm, I'm actually in favor of capital punishment and the just war theory. I am a gun/rifle owner and take the protection of my family very seriously.

David, Gidian, and Joshua are prime examples of God using men, through violence, to do His perfect will. God commanded the complete annihilation of nations in the OT and God does not change, He can not sin, He can not lie, He can not be wrong.

[JHM]

Bye Now

[HypnoToad]

@ the authors of posts 76 & 77. There is a very appropriate quote in scripture with which I could reply; but once again I shall forebear.
Then why bother posting??

[Nadiine]

Ummm, I'm actually in favor of capital ounishment and the just war theory. I am a gun/rifle owner and take the protection of my family very seriously.

David, Gidian, and Joshua are prime examples of God using men, through violence, to do His perfect will. God commanded the complete annihilation of nations in the OT and God does not change, He can not sin, He can not lie, He can not be wrong.
:thumbsup:
Yes, God was the first to make ARMIES out of His own people - He sent them into camps and they wiped out entire tribes: men, women, children & animals.....

The truth is, without a military defense, YOU HAVE NO FREE LAND TO LIVE IN - it will be overtaken eventually. This is why every nation keeps armies and policing of some sort for protection of themselves.

I often wonder what it would be like if passivists all moved to a beautiful island & turned it into a paradise and Pirates & other rogues with weapons and bad intent showed up? :holy:
Do you just stand by & let them take everything over?

Here's another concept, how do they not feel somewhat guilty for being protected by armies who would kill others upon threat?
They sure enjoy the freedoms it brings them!!

[mont974x4]

;) Have you noticed the tag line up by my user name.

[Nadiine]

;) Have you noticed the tag line up by my user name.
No I sure hadn't Mont, AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR SERVICE AND SACRIFICE FOR US AND FOR OUR COUNTRY.
My husband is a former Marine vet.

We're indebted to you guys, and I enjoy every day of my freedom due to your sacrifices.
God bless you and your family richly brother!! :hug: :hug:

[mont974x4]

It was my pleasure, and I miss it greatly, but God had other plans.

[Giver]

oh whatever --
so go ahead and refuse to protect your family or loved ones from predators....
refuse to protect yourself -- it's your choice.

You wouldn't even be sitting within a FREE country if you weren't protected by OTHERS' blood - others who were brave enough and sacrificial for YOUR benefit to sit there.

Thankfully in life I have choices - and I'd have nothing to do w/ such people w/ this level of apathy & passivism. I find it legalistic at it's height.
Jesus came here and died so we could live in his kingdom. All he asked us to do is hear his Word and live it. He told us: (Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Now if you think it is more important to live a free life here in this world, then to be with Jesus in his kingdom, well, that is your choice.

[mont974x4]

Jesus even said He did not come to bring peace, but the sword.


God gives authority to those He chooses. IN the case of governments that authority is given to protect us from criminals within and inveaders from without...see Romans 13.


Nothing in Scripture tells Christians to not serve in the military, the police force, or anywhere else where they may be called upon to justly take anothers life.



The Bible calls a man that won't provide for his family worse than an unbeleiver. That is not limited to our earning power and financial provision. Additionally in the OT they were to have a parapet on the roof to keep people safe, whether family or visitors, the same principle applies. I must do what is necessary to provide a safe environment for my family and others around me.


Part of love and justice and righteousness is holding people accountable for their actions. That is not a seperate thing from loving and praying for them. My wife prayed for Saddam all the way until he died on the gallows. She wanted so badly for him to repent and come to Christ but she knew he had to be held accountable for his crimes.

[Nadiine]

Jesus came here and died so we could live in his kingdom. All he asked us to do is hear his Word and live it. He told us: (Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you:offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Now if you think it is more important to live a free life here in this world, then to be with Jesus in his kingdom, well, that is your choice.

Why would you add words & another meaning outside of my context?
Thank you, but I never said I valued one OVER another.
:)
If you want to assume that I can't value freedom AND BE A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER, that is your error, not mine.

[Zecryphon]

So the "Do not kill" commandment doesn't matter to you? You sound ready to use this thing on others.

Where exactly in scripture does Jesus give you or any other follower permission to harm another person?

Don't bother looking. This question has gone around and around and the answer is no where. You are setting yourself up to do something totally contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

Any of the Apostles, by their actions or examples show you this is how a follower of Jesus should be? Trusting in his weapon instead of God. No, they all trusted God, and God alone to lead them through their lives.

How many times did Paul get thrown in prison, beaten, whipped and abused? Many, many. How many times did he defend himself of advocate defending himself or others in scripture? He didn't. None. Zip. Nada. Not once. Did Stephen fight back. No. Nor did any other Apostle. He and they had faith that God was in control and turned adversity into benefits for the Lord Jesus whatever the circumstance.

If you are fearful for your life, you have already lost it.
If you use that thing, you may lose your court case here and lose your life in this world too.

Let go and let God. Then Jesus truly becomes the Prince of Peace.

God Bless
"So the "Do not kill" commandment doesn't matter to you?"

Of course it does. Let me explain soemthing to you, I do not wish to kill anyone, I did not buy a gun so I could go around killing people at random. Anti-gun people, not saying you are one, love to paint us in that light. I have a tool that I will use to put someone down who is advancing on myself or my family.

"You sound ready to use this thing on others."

If need be yes. God gave everything He created a will to live. We want to hold on to our life. It is the most precious thing we own. I would be doing a disservice to my family, another gift from God if I just let someone invade my home and kill me and then them. Jesus Himself told his disciples to arm themselves. I'm following Jesus' own words.

"Where exactly in scripture does Jesus give you or any other follower permission to harm another person?"

He most certainly must have expected it, why else would he tell us to arm ourselves? This is what is known as a judgment call.

"Don't bother looking."

Why? Are you afraid I might find something that would hurt your bleeding heart liberal stance?

"This question has gone around and around and the answer is no where. You are setting yourself up to do something totally contrary to the teachings of Jesus."

And of course you just relish your position of going around the forum and telling others that whatever they do that you are personally oppposed to, such as owning a gun, being involved in government, etc. as being opposed to the teachings of Jesus. Jesus is my judge marke not you and I will give an account for my actions if the day comes when I actually have to use the training I've been given for protection of myself and my family. Continue to sit on your hands and do nothing and let the forces of evil win.

"Any of the Apostles, by their actions or examples show you this is how a follower of Jesus should be? Trusting in his weapon instead of God. No, they all trusted God, and God alone to lead them through their lives."

Really? They did? That's funny I remember Peter denying He even knew Jesus. I remember all the Apostles being shocked that Jesus had actually done what He said He would by rising from the dead. They had no faith Marke. They were flawed human beings, just like all of us. We all have our shortcomings. Jesus told us to arm ourselves and we have and you have a bug up your butt about it. Too bad. Suck it up and deal with it.

"How many times did Paul get thrown in prison, beaten, whipped and abused? Many, many. How many times did he defend himself of advocate defending himself or others in scripture? He didn't. None. Zip. Nada. Not once. Did Stephen fight back. No. Nor did any other Apostle. He and they had faith that God was in control and turned adversity into benefits for the Lord Jesus whatever the circumstance."

The difference is Paul wasn't doing anything wrong in his actions. Paul wasn't faced with a home invasion scenario or a robbery situation. That's kinda important if you're gonna use him and the others as examples of how to live. They were never presented with the situations that would call for the use of deadly force. They simply submitted themselves to the will of the authorities of the day.

"If you are fearful for your life, you have already lost it.
If you use that thing, you may lose your court case here and lose your life in this world too."

Yeah, um, how much do you know about Arizona law in this area? Hmm? I know the laws you don't. I think I'm in a better position to make a decision of what is legal to do than you are. Just like Paul and the other apostles, I'm prepared to accept the consequences of my actions, if there are any. If you think I'm bad, Google Sheriff Joe Arpaio. That should send you through the roof!

"Let go and let God. Then Jesus truly becomes the Prince of Peace."

And you get to sit on your self-righteous throne and pass judgment upon others. Well, what else have you go to do really? We all know when push comes to shove, you're just gonna bend over and let the crimminals rape you and take what they want, because you don't have what it takes to do what is necessary. Tell me, is your family comfortable with the fact that the head of the household is going to lay down and die instead of protecting what God has given him to protect? I find that very hard to believe. Or perhaps you're not married. Then feel free to give up your life as you see fit. You will answer for your actions just as I will. Your taunts and veilled insults mean nothing to me.

[Giver]

Why would you add words & another meaning outside of my context?
Thank you, but I never said I valued one OVER another.
:)
If you want to assume that I can't value freedom AND BE A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER, that is your error, not mine.
When the price of freedom is acquired by; a Christian killing another human being, then freedom isn’t freedom at all.

[Zecryphon]

When the price of freedom is acquired by; a Christian killing another human being, then freedom isn’t freedom at all.
What is it then? Because Christians have been serving in the armed forces and law enforcement profession for a very long time.

[Giver]

What is it then? Because Christians have been serving in the armed forces and law enforcement profession for a very long time.
Disobeying Jesus is a sin. Sin is slavery to Satan. Slavery to Satan is not freedom. (Romans 6:20-23) “ When you were slaves of sin, you felt no obligation to righteousness, and what did you get from this? Nothing but experiences that now make you blush, since that sort of behavior ends in death. Now, however, you have been set free from sin, you have been made slaves of God, and you get a reward leading to your sanctification and ending in eternal life. For the wage paid by sin in death; the present given by God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

[Nadiine]

When the price of freedom is acquired by; a Christian killing another human being, then freedom isn’t freedom at all.

So, it's not sin for an unsaved person to fight to protect the people in their land, but it IS a sin for a Christian?
interesting.

salvation isn't FREE either did you know that? God commands us to be "LIVING SACRIFICES" and "carry our crosses". We may not have paid for our salvation's with our lives, but we literally GIVE OUR LIVES to God as our Saviour.
That IS our sacrifice to Him.

It costs something to follow God - and if you are not willing to pay that cost, you are not even worthy of Him. (Jesus' own words).

FREEDOM AND SALVATION ARE COSTLY.

[Giver]

So, it's not sin for an unsaved person to fight to protect the people in their land, but it IS a sin for a Christian?
interesting.

salvation isn't FREE either did you know that? God commands us to be "LIVING SACRIFICES" and "carry our crosses". We may not have paid for our salvation's with our lives, but we literally GIVE OUR LIVES to God as our Saviour.
That IS our sacrifice to Him.

It costs something to follow God - and if you are not willing to pay that cost, you are not even worthy of Him. (Jesus' own words).

FREEDOM AND SALVATION ARE COSTLY.
Words don’t make a Christian. Hearing God’s Word and living it makes a Christian. (Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

(John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”

[Zecryphon]

Disobeying Jesus is a sin. Sin is slavery to Satan. Slavery to Satan is not freedom. (Romans 6:20-23) “ When you were slaves of sin, you felt no obligation to righteousness, and what did you get from this? Nothing but experiences that now make you blush, since that sort of behavior ends in death. Now, however, you have been set free from sin, you have been made slaves of God, and you get a reward leading to your sanctification and ending in eternal life. For the wage paid by sin in death; the present given by God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
"Disobeying Jesus is a sin. Sin is slavery to Satan. Slavery to Satan is not freedom. (Romans 6:20-23) “ When you were slaves of sin, you felt no obligation to righteousness, and what did you get from this? Nothing but experiences that now make you blush, since that sort of behavior ends in death. Now, however, you have been set free from sin, you have been made slaves of God, and you get a reward leading to your sanctification and ending in eternal life. For the wage paid by sin in death; the present given by God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”"

That's great, but as that scripture applies to our state before we became believers in Christ what does it have to do with Christians who have chosen to arm themselves? Are you saying that any Christian who owns a gun or is in the military or law enforcement professions has lost their salvation?

I know you have taken steps to protect yourself too. Do you have locks on your doors? Why? Do you have a home security system? Why? I mean if we're not to protect ourselves and just let the crimminals have their way, ya know endorse their lifestyle by not hindering them, why would you own any of these things? Particularly a home security system, which will alert people with guns that you are in trouble or danger? I mean if it's so bad, and such a sin, you should just let the crimminals in, let them take what they want and leave, right?

[Zecryphon]

Words don’t make a Christian. Hearing God’s Word and living it makes a Christian. (Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

(John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”
"Words don’t make a Christian. Hearing God’s Word and living it makes a Christian."

So it's salvation by works that you promote too? Interesting. Salvation is a gift. Faith is a gift. You do nothing to earn it. So living the Christian life, doesn't save you, without the gifts that God bestows upon you. Salvation and faith. You can imitate Jesus all you want in word and deed, but without the gifts of God, you're a dead man walking.

[Nadiine]

"Words don’t make a Christian. Hearing God’s Word and living it makes a Christian."

So it's salvation by works that you promote too? Interesting. Salvation is a gift. Faith is a gift. You do nothing to earn it. So living the Christian life, doesn't save you, without the gifts that God bestows upon you. Salvation and faith. You can imitate Jesus all you want in word and deed, but without the gifts of God, you're a dead man walking.
:thumbsup: Agreed. While Christ paid for our salvation, and our works do not AQUIRE IT... we ARE "living sacrifices" unto Him, and we do "carry our crosses".

That is our sacrifice unto Him (the works simply Follow from the genuine salvation He provides freely for us).

[Giver]

"Words don’t make a Christian. Hearing God’s Word and living it makes a Christian."

So it's salvation by works that you promote too? Interesting. Salvation is a gift. Faith is a gift. You do nothing to earn it. So living the Christian life, doesn't save you, without the gifts that God bestows upon you. Salvation and faith. You can imitate Jesus all you want in word and deed, but without the gifts of God, you're a dead man walking.
(James 2:18-19) “This is the way to talk to people of that kind. You say you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds. Now you prove to me that you have faith with without any good deeds to show. You believe in the one God; that is creditable enough, but the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Do realize, you senseless man, that faith without good deeds is useless.”

[Zecryphon]

(James 2:18-19) “This is the way to talk to people of that kind. You say you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds. Now you prove to me that you have faith with without any good deeds to show. You believe in the one God; that is creditable enough, but the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Do realize, you senseless man, that faith without good deeds is useless.”
Good deeds are evidence of salvation, they are not a a way to obtain salvation. :yawn:

[Giver]

Good deeds are evidence of salvation, they are not a a way to obtain salvation. :yawn: Next.
So then bad deeds, such as killing, are evidence that a person isn’t saved, right?

[Zecryphon]

So then bad deeds, such as killing, are evidence that a person isn’t saved, right?
Killing can also be seen as a good deed. It depends upon your perspective. Jesus said in John 15:13:

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

If I choose to give my life defending my family, that is an act of love, not an act of sin. If you have the power to stop a heinous crime from being committed, and you do not, is that an act of love towards your neighbor or is that an act of sin?

It all depends on your perspective. People sin every day. You do as well.

1 John 1:8-10 (ESV)

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

It is not evidence of not being saved. There is nothing you will ever see that will be proof of non-salvation. What matters is the heart behind the action. If someone is willfully living in a lifestyle of sin, then yes you have grounds to wonder about that person's salvation. But that's all you have grounds for, you do not have the right to declare or conclude that someone is not saved. Because then you're judging that person by your personal standard of what you consider to be behavior that is evidence of a saved person.

We can never ever say who is and who is not saved, based upon their works. It is an issue between God and the Christian. Only God knows the heart of a person, we do not. So in my opinion, to go around like a self-appointed fruit inspector, saying who is and who is not saved as evidenced by their fruit, will only cause division in the body of Christ. We have enough of that as it is over major issues, we don't need more of minor issues such as service in the military and ownership of a firearm or the right to carry a concealed weapon.

[mont974x4]

The command not to kill is not to coimmit murder. There is no command against killing in war, capital punishment, or self defense.


If you are going to try to apply it as a blanket thou shall not kill then you better not eat anything that hasn't died of natural causes...despite the command to kill and eat following the flood.


Oh, never mind, some people like making God a liar and a cruel master.

[Nadiine]

So then bad deeds, such as killing, are evidence that a person isn’t saved, right?
Self defense is not "MURDER/KILLING". This is the error being made here.
Premeditatedly deciding to kill somebody for selfish gain or bitter revenge is the sin. THAT is not just.
Spontaneously being in a situation where someone breaks into your house and starts attacking you or one of your family, and then PROTECTING YOURSELF FROM THE HARM THEY'RE DOING AGAINST YOU is not "sinful" or evil.
It is self preservation/ LOVE OF LIFE - your life or the life of your family.

What you are doing is twisting LOVE into "love of the criminal and apathy & indifference towards your family/loved ones. To choose to preserve the life of the one KILLING than to preserve the innocent life of the victim being harmed.

You don't consider that mentality "Evil"? To protect the one murdering unjustly while allowing your loved one to die without any effort to try to save them?

If so, I don't want to know what you consider "LOVE". And I most certainly thank GOD I'm not your spouse or family or friend in a scary situation.

[Nadiine]

The command not to kill is not to coimmit murder. There is no command against killing in war, capital punishment, or self defense.


If you are going to try to apply it as a blanket thou shall not kill then you better not eat anything that hasn't died of natural causes...despite the command to kill and eat following the flood.


Oh, never mind, some people like making God a liar and a cruel master.
Good point - in fact, God led Israel into battles to wipe out those nations IN WAR - while the "do not kill" law was fully in tact and enforceable.

So let's properly define "KILL" first! If killing is taking ANY AND ALL LIFE for any reason including defense, then Israel was breaking God's law in the OT. every time they went to battle (at God's own command in leading them into it).

I'd rep you again, but it won't let me yet. :thumbsup:

[JHM]

Bye Now

[mont974x4]

LOL That's OK, Sis.

[mont974x4]

JHM, I would suggest that there's already enough division. I see no one really being attacked. I do see healthy debate by people with passionate convictions.

[JHM]

Bye Now

[Nadiine]

I see a lot of rudeness and sarcasm being tossed, about. And the part about that, that I dislike, is the turn the other cheek set has to endure it, while the violence begets violence set report it instantly, when a turn the other cheeker loses their cool.

That is somewhat unfair; but I suppose that God will judge which is right. "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord".
This happened in another thread recently, when some good points were made towards one side of the debate, the other side started complaining about how I used some caps in my post, or "ranting"...
That can be somewhat deflecting from the issues that get ignored as you lead others away from talking about the subject at hand.

I don't see hostility here - I'd be interested in asking you why God had a "do not kill" law, then led Israel into war and killing off pagan tribes all the way to the promised land?
Just curious what you think on that if God violated the Law.?

[Zecryphon]

I am beginning to think It would be a good idea to have separate ferums, perhaps not only for those who hold unorthadox views, but also for those who believe that violence is the correct response to violence.

Further I would make it a rule that anyone could read any forum, but those voted out by the membership of any given forum could no longer post there. Perhaps that way people could share their views without constantly coming under attack from those with opposing views.
"I am beginning to think It would be a good idea to have separate ferums, perhaps not only for those who hold unorthadox views, but also for those who believe that violence is the correct response to violence."

So your solution to the problems you perceive here, is to segregate people into a bunch of different groups, where there is no disagreement between the members? If you do that, you will have a segregated and dead forum. Fellowship threads, where everyone just pats everybody else on the back and agrees with each other on everything, do not create hits on a thread. Disagreement can be civil, it doesn't have to escalate into a flame war. Disagreement creates lively threads, for a very simple reason. Every person in here thinks they are right and everyone else is wrong.

"Further I would make it a rule that anyone could read any forum, but those voted out by the membership of any given forum could no longer post there. Perhaps that way people could share their views without constantly coming under attack from those with opposing views."

You should try Christianity General at about.com. They have