Was Judas 'Az'azel?

[Bananna]

It occured to me that Yeshua and Judas played very different parts in God's drama, both necessary.

Was it Judas that carried our sins away symbolically, since he was not the chosen of God?

Just a thought form the Torah study of Yom Kippur
bananna

[visionary]

I see Judas as the one who brought the lamb in to be slaughtered.

[Bananna]

I see the two high priests mentioned as the ones that brought the lamb to be slaughtered.

I heard once that the Azezel was taken out in the desert and thrown head long over a cliff so it would not return to the city.

In that sense I see Judas as an oposite to Yehsua, when out in the desert and threw himself headlong... by one account hung and another his guts spilt out.

Both are possible if he hung himself as it was not uncommon to have the guts spill out at a hanging according to one jailer I talked to.

Anyhow it was just a thought... not anything I'm standing on.

bananna

[Lulav]

Yeshua was sinless and then had all the sins of the world put upon him, think about it, He was the lamb of G-d and yet he was also the goat for Azazel.

He was the Passover and he was the Atonement.

[Bananna]

I'm not sugguesting that Judas paid the price that was the sinless sacrifice Yeshua paid the price, but Azazel carries away, as in carrying away the sins so they are remembered no more.

You remember the clay pot made for destruction? Why did the scripture say God might make a vessel for destruction?

Bananna

[visionary]

Both goats were to be identical and the only way you tell the difference is by the red thread.

The atonement goat is sacrificed on Yom Kippur not Passover.

I see the symbolism for Yom Kippur more for the future when the son of perdition comes and has the whole world at his feet. I believe that he will do a great imitation of Yeshua, and for those who are unprepared, will believe it is Yeshua's second coming.... thus believe the great delusion.

There were two scapegoats brought before the temple. One was for the cleansing of the temple of all the dealings with sin, once and for all, which is what Yeshua is going to finally accomplish. When this
sacrificial goat was appointed, the high priest pronounced, "For Jehovah" and the throngs of worshipers would fall on their faces and call out, “Blessed be the Name; the glory of His kingdom is forever and
ever.” Then the goat was slain.

I believe that it has to be the adversary. The only big enough adversary to actually challenge Yeshua is Satan. In order for Satan to do a good job he will have to manifest himself as a majestic being probably of dazzling brightness, and probably resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in Revelation 1:13-15.

1 Cor 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

There are several things that he cannot copy,

2 John 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Yeshua in the flesh such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

So it will be here in the last days of earth's history that there will be a blindness "In their case the god of
this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ who is the likeness of God." 2 Cor 4:4
"And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:..." Rev 13:4 There are two things that the devil while imitating Christ can not do, he can not be holy, and he can not come in the flesh.

[Lulav]

I'm not sugguesting that Judas paid the price that was the sinless sacrifice Yeshua paid the price, but Azazel carries away, as in carrying away the sins so they are remembered no more.

You remember the clay pot made for destruction? Why did the scripture say God might make a vessel for destruction?

Bananna Do you mean like I have prepared a body for you? ( Hebrew 10:5) although I can't find a T reference for that. Not sure about your vessel for destruction, doesn't ring a bell. :)

[Lulav]

The atonement goat is sacrificed on Yom Kippur not Passover. All Jews know this, me included. ;)

Visionary, you should read through Hebrews and see that Yeshua's blood was taken into the holy of holies after he arose from death. This is our atonement, Passover is not atonement, but Salvation.

Read this , it may help http://biblicalholidays.com/messiah_in_yom_kippur.htm

I believe that it has to be the adversary. The only big enough adversary to actually challenge Yeshua is Satan. In order for Satan to do a good job he will have to manifest himself as a majestic being probably of dazzling brightness, and probably resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in Revelation 1:13-15.

This is a good sermon by a Messianic Rabbi, it shows you how HaSatan cannot be the goat for Az'azel, but it is really Messiah, the two represent him both, because only he could do both. Read this one first if you like.

http://www.bethelgibor.org/RabbiMark-2GoatYomKippur2004.html

[visionary]

In one account of the fall of the angels in the Book of Enoch, Azazel is the leader of the Watchers who educates humankind of heavenly secrets that lead humankind to sin. These teachings include making weapons of war and preparing cosmetics, which enabled the women to seduce the angels.

The angels then charge Azazel before the Lord with crimes of revealing the heavenly secrets which mankind was not supposed to know. Raphael was then assigned to punish Azazel by binding him hand and foot and throwing him into the darkness among the sharp and jagged rocks, where he would remain until the day of judgment when he would be hurled into the fire. The story then claims that "the whole earth has been corrupted by Azazel teachings of his own actions; and write upon him all sin." It was because of Azazel's teachings that God sent the Flood to destroy the evil in the world including even the souls of the giants, so that all evil will be wiped away from the face of the earth.

Far from involving the recognition of Azazel as a deity, the sending of the goat was, as stated by Naḥmanides, a symbolic expression of the idea that the people's sins and their evil consequences were to be sent back to the spirit of desolation and ruin, the source of all impurity. The very fact that the two goats were presented before Yhwh before the one was sacrificed and the other sent into the wilderness, was proof that Azazel was not ranked with Yhwh, but regarded simply as the personification of wickedness in contrast with the righteous government of Yhwh. The rite, resembling, on the one hand, the sending off of the epha with the woman embodying wickedness in its midst to the land of Shinar in the vision of Zachariah (v. 6-11), and, on the other, the letting loose of the living bird into the open field in the case of the leper healed from the plague (Lev. xiv. 7), was, indeed, viewed by the people of Jerusalem as a means of ridding themselves of the sins of the year. So would the crowd, called Babylonians or Alexandrians, pull the goat's hair to make it hasten forth, carrying the burden of sins away with it (Yoma vi. 4, 66b; "Epistle of Barnabas," vii.), and the arrival of the shattered animal at the bottom of the valley of the rock of Bet Ḥadudo, twelve miles away from the city, was signalized by the waving of shawls to the people of Jerusalem, who celebrated the event with boisterous hilarity and amid dancing on the hills (Yoma vi. 6, 8; Ta'an. iv. 8). Evidently the figure of Azazel was an object of general fear and awe rather than, as has been conjectured, a foreign product or the invention of a late lawgiver. Nay, more; as a demon of the desert, it seems to have been closely interwoven with the mountainous region of Jerusalem and of ancient pre-Israelitish origin.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=2203&letter=A#6888

[Bananna]

so it is spoken of In the book of Enoch. Makes sense. I've read it only once and it has been some time.

It would make more sense that Judas threw himself down a cliff on the rocks bound then as a symbol of Azezel.
Interesting thought.

Bananna

[Bananna]

Do you mean like I have prepared a body for you? ( Hebrew 10:5) although I can't find a T reference for that. Not sure about your vessel for destruction, doesn't ring a bell. :)

Isa 45:9 ¶ Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?


Isa 45:10 Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?


Isa 45:11 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.


Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Rom 9:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom009.html#21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

[HadassahSukkot]

IMHO; Bar Abbas better fits the 'scape goat' than Yehudah.

Think about it..

[visionary]

Good example... The people then chose the right Messiah to die for them. Mt 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Dear Lord...Now is the time to remove the blood off of His people and lay it on the head of the instigator of all this sin and sacrifice once and for all....On your head, Azazel..

[Bananna]

IMHO; Bar Abbas better fits the 'scape goat' than Yehudah.

Think about it..
I've heard two stories about Barabas One he was a zealot the other an ill moraled man. Condemned for murder. Do you know much about him?

Bananna

[Lulav]

Bar Abba = son of the father, interesting huh? :)

[Lulav]

It occured to me that Yeshua and Judas played very different parts in God's drama, both necessary.

Was it Judas that carried our sins away symbolically, since he was not the chosen of God?

Just a thought form the Torah study of Yom Kippur
bananna

The one Yeshua calls the ' son of perdition' certainly cannot bear the sins of the world.( John 17:12)

2 thes speaks of the man of sin being revealed before the end, and he too is called the son of perdition. Remember the goat for Az'azel was innocent, unblemished, Judah was not, nor was HaSatan. Far from it. Read the link I posted , this one

http://www.bethelgibor.org/RabbiMark...ippur2004.html (http://www.bethelgibor.org/RabbiMark-2GoatYomKippur2004.html)

Its really good, and should help you. :)

[Bananna]

I highly doubt there was any physical blemish on Judas.

Don't know how to explain it any better but my point seems to be lost except for one post.
Bearing the burden and having the cost of them born away would be different applications.

Bananna

[TheRabbi]

Let's keep in mind that the second goat was not called Azazel. One one lot was written L'Shem/To the Lord. This indicates where this goat is to go (to the altar). The second lot said L'Azazel/To destruction. This goat was taken to a cliff and thrown over backwards.

The word that many English bibles translate as "send" is "Shlach". This word is used interchangeably for both "send" and "throw".

[visionary]

The one Yeshua calls the ' son of perdition' certainly cannot bear the sins of the world.( John 17:12)

2 thes speaks of the man of sin being revealed before the end, and he too is called the son of perdition. Remember the goat for Az'azel was innocent, unblemished, Judah was not, nor was HaSatan. Far from it. Read the link I posted , this one

http://www.bethelgibor.org/RabbiMark...ippur2004.html (http://www.bethelgibor.org/RabbiMark-2GoatYomKippur2004.html)

Its really good, and should help you. :)Both goats are symbolic and a role played. Both goats are identical, except for the name given them. John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. Both play a role in the plan of salvation. One is for redemption and the other is blamed for having caused all this sin in the first place and that is why all the sins of the sanctuary are laid on his head. 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. He is left outside where the congregation can see him, while the one that is named in His Father's name is taken into the sanctuary.

[Bananna]

Let's keep in mind that the second goat was not called Azazel. One one lot was written L'Shem/To the Lord. This indicates where this goat is to go (to the altar). The second lot said L'Azazel/To destruction. This goat was taken to a cliff and thrown over backwards.

The word that many English bibles translate as "send" is "Shlach". This word is used interchangeably for both "send" and "throw".

Yes exactly what I'm seeing
bananna

[Henaynei]

both the kipporah and the a'zazel were perfect and without blemish -- pretty much rules out Yehuda right away, no?


lev 16

15 "Next, he is to slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, bring its blood inside the curtain and do with its blood as he did with the bull's blood, sprinkling it on the ark-cover and in front of the ark-cover. 16 He will make atonement for the Holy Place because of the uncleannesses of the people of Isra'el and because of their transgressions - all their sins; and he is to do the same for the tent of meeting which is there with them right in the middle of their uncleannesses. 17 No one is to be present in the tent of meeting from the time he enters the Holy Place to make atonement until the time he comes out, having made atonement for himself, for his household and for the entire community of Isra'el. 18 Then he is to go out to the altar that is before ADONAI and make atonement for it; he is to take some of the bull's blood and some of the goat's blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. 19 He is to sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, thus purifying it and setting it apart from the uncleannesses of the people of Isra'el. 20 "When he has finished atoning for the Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he is to present the live goat. 21 Aharon is to lay both his hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the transgressions, crimes and sins of the people of Isra'el; he is to put them on the head of the goat and then send it away into the desert with a man appointed for the purpose. 22 The goat will bear all their transgressions away to some isolated place, and he is to let the goat go in the desert.
Yeshua was both kipporah and a'zazel - his blood was the kipporah and he "was sent away" by the Kohen HaGadol to "bear the sins of many"

John 11
49 But one of them, Kayafa, who was cohen gadol that year, said to them, "You people don't know anything! 50 You don't see that it's better for you if one man dies on behalf of the people, so that the whole nation won't be destroyed." 51 Now he didn't speak this way on his own initiative; rather, since he was cohen gadol that year, he was prophesying that Yeshua was about to die on behalf of the nation,

[Lulav]

Thank you Henaynei. :thumbsup:

Visionary where do you get this from?

Both play a role in the plan of salvation. One is for redemption and the other is blamed for having caused all this sin in the first place and that is why all the sins of the sanctuary are laid on his head. Yom Kippur is a corporate day of sacrifice, it is for all Israel, but not the nations. The priest laid his hands upon the goats head and confessed all the sins of Israel upon it and it was sent into the wilderness to separate Israel from her sins, as promised that HaShem would do. ( Jer 31) And I'm sure the nations have sinned, greatly so it couldn't stand for causing ALL sin for that would include the gentiles. :)

Here is the promise and it was fulfilled with Yeshua's atonement

31 Behold, the days come, saith the L-RD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the L-RD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the L-RD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the L-RD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the L-RD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Isaiah 53 speaks of this as well

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the L-RD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. The L-RD hath laid.........................Just like the Cohen HaGadol

15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: 16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. 18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the L-RD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. 19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. the L-RD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

[visionary]

The sins were laid on Him, and He carried then into the sanctuary as the High Priest. Then when the sanctuary is cleansed of sins, they are all, collectively, laid on the head of the scapegoat.

By way of explanation the Midrash offers the following idea:

This goat [the scapegoat, called sair in Hebrew] refers to Esau, as it is written: "but my brother Esau is a hairy [written as soir in Hebrew] man" (Genesis 27:11) [The Hebrew words sair, "goat," and soir, "hairy" are spelled identically.]

[It is further written]: "The goat will bear upon itself all their inequities (avonotam)." In Hebrew the word avonotam can be split into two words avonot tam, meaning "the inequities of the innocent." This is a reference to Jacob about whom it is written: "Jacob was a wholesome (tam) man" (Genesis 25:27). The word tam in Hebrew means wholesome or innocent. (Bereishis Rabba 65:15)

The scapegoat represents Esau, and the Midrash suggests that this explains how it works; the sins committed by Israel are somehow traceable back to Jacob, as we are all his descendants. Jacob's sins can somehow be blamed on Esau, and therefore it makes sense that the goat, which represents Esau, carries away all of Israel's sins. Is there any way we can bring these seemingly strange concepts a little closer to earth?http://www.aish.com/torahportion/mayanot/The_Scapegoat.asp ...continuation on same page.. Isaac's twin sons, Jacob and Esau, were spiritually more powerful than we are. They attained the absolute clarity of vision that comes from total self-definition without the help of Divine intervention, through the exercise of their own freedom of choice. Jacob defined himself as a neshama - Jacob was a 'wholesome man', totally consistent and whole and free of contradictions. Esau declared, "Look I am going to die," thus defining himself as a creature of this world only, a man of the field.

We do not possess the spiritual strength to arrive at the clarity of vision that allows such sharp self-definition, but on Yom Kippur, the original distinction between Jacob and Esau reestablishes itself in all of us with God's help. We, the descendants of Jacob, regain our forefather Jacob's original wholesomeness. Our total lack of confusion highlights the opposite side of the coin as well. All of a sudden we are a billion percent clear that we are not Esau, and we realize that the spiritual problems we face the rest of the year comes from the lack of clarity about not being Esau. This then is the secret behind the idea of the "scapegoat."

[visionary]

Hebrew Sa'ir La-'aza'zel (“goat for Azazel”), in the Old Testament ritual of Yom Kippur (Lev. 16:8–10), a goat symbolically burdened with the sins of the Jewish people. Some scholars believe that the animal was chosen by lot to placate Azazel, a wilderness demon, then thrown over a precipice outside Jerusalem to rid the nation of its iniquities. By extension, a scapegoat has come to mean any group or individual…http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9066030/scapegoat If you know anything about Enoch you would understand where that thinking came from.

[visionary]

Satan was "the original cause" of all sin, "justice demands that God place right back on the head of the devil his guilt - not our guilt, but his own guilt - for leading us into sin."

The angel of Rev.20:1 represents the "fit man" that sends the goat (Satan) into the wilderness (represented by the "bottomless pit").

Azazel Personification of Impurity.

Far from involving the recognition of Azazel as a deity, the sending of the goat was, as stated by Naḥmanides, a symbolic expression of the idea that the people's sins and their evil consequences were to be sent back to the spirit of desolation and ruin, the source of all impurity. The very fact that the two goats were presented before Yhwh before the one was sacrificed and the other sent into the wilderness, was proof that Azazel was not ranked with Yhwh, but regarded simply as the personification of wickedness in contrast with the righteous government of Yhwh. The rite, resembling, on the one hand, the sending off of the epha with the woman embodying wickedness in its midst to the land of Shinar in the vision of Zachariah (v. 6-11), and, on the other, the letting loose of the living bird into the open field in the case of the leper healed from the plague (Lev. xiv. 7), was, indeed, viewed by the people of Jerusalem as a means of ridding themselves of the sins of the year. So would the crowd, called Babylonians or Alexandrians, pull the goat's hair to make it hasten forth, carrying the burden of sins away with it (Yoma vi. 4, 66b; "Epistle of Barnabas," vii.), and the arrival of the shattered animal at the bottom of the valley of the rock of Bet Ḥadudo, twelve miles away from the city, was signalized by the waving of shawls to the people of Jerusalem, who celebrated the event with boisterous hilarity and amid dancing on the hills (Yoma vi. 6, 8; Ta'an. iv. 8). Evidently the figure of Azazel was an object of general fear and awe rather than, as has been conjectured, a foreign product or the invention of a late lawgiver. Nay, more; as a demon of the desert, it seems to have been closely interwoven with the mountainous region of Jerusalem and of ancient pre-Israelitish origin. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=2203&letter=A

[Lulav]

So you think as long as the tabernacle and temple rites were performed the High priest 'punished' HaSatan each year for making Israel sin??