A rapture study from a differant angle

[Time2BCounted]

I thought it would be interesting to do a study on the timing of the rapture from a slightly differant angle.

The angle?

From the standpoint of this question... HOW do we determine what doctrines are sound or unsound... true or false?

I dont mean for this to be a debate but a discussion, and i certainly dont mean to deman anyone who holds one rapture belief or another... my hope is for good discussion and to provoke thought.

So to begin.. How DO we determine what doctrines are sound and unsound?

[Lisa0315]

Moving this to our Debate area. :wave:

Lisa

[Lisa0315]

I honestly do not know that much about the doctrine of it all, but I am interested in learning.

Why are people so against Pre-Trib other than it is a relatively new doctrine?

Lisa

[Time2BCounted]

hey thats fine.

do i see a taker on the question here? lol

it would be an interesting debate maybe from this standpoint.

[Time2BCounted]

good question sister

give me one second to take care of something and i will post an answer for you

[bill16652]

Hey not all of us I believe in pre trib but I also beleive that we will go through a lot of things before it happens.

[Time2BCounted]

Actually a simple belief in a pre trib rapture isnt dangerous at all... yet. I do sense that it will be in the future.

Lets say the scriptures teach a rapture very near the end of the tribulation. We know that the mark will come and that the world will be forced to take it. Lets say within the next few years, everyone was required to receive an electronic identification implant that would also be used for economic purposes. First of all no one would be able to buy and sell without it... BUT, there will be many going into the first calm prat of the 70th week believing in a pre trib rapture. When the mark is instituted I can see a possibility that behind many pulpits it will be taught "this cant be the mark of the beast, we havent been raptured yet." In this scenario how many people would receive the mark based on their pastors mistaken belief? I dont think this is far fetched, people generally trust their pastors.

Lets consider the doctrines too handed down from Christ through the apostles the early church fathers, and the first 1800 years of the church. This is partly how we actually determine what is sound and what is not. An end trib rapture was the ONLY one taught.

The pre trib rapture was originated by John Darby and Margaret Macdonald, who spoke of a 'secret' rapture before the tribulation. This was never taught in the first 1800 years.

Certainly one way also to determine what is sound and what is not, are 'declaritive' statements from the bible. For instance it declared all have sinned, so we KNOW all have sinned. It declares that the wages of sin is death so we KNOW this is true. It declares that Jesus is the Lamb of God who taketh upon Himself the sins of the world, so we KNOW it is sound.

One interesting aspect of the pre trib rapture is that there is not a single declaritive statement saying we are raptured 'before' the trib.

In another thread for instance you posted revelation 3 stating that the church who was faithful would be 'kept from' the evil to come. Think about this though... is God regulated to ONLY a pre trib rapture to accomplish this? No not at all. Consider the children of israel who were captive in egpyt... When Moses told Pharoah to 'let my people go', Pharoah refused 10 times and the plagues fell on all of Egypt... EXCEPT the land of Goshen in the midst of egypt, where Gods people lived... He KEPT them from the evil falling on Egypt mjiraculously, and certainly He can keep some in the coming tribulation.

Bear in mind we are never told in scripture that the rapture will be secret, quite the opposite, there are trupms sounding, the shout of the archangel, every sye seeing.

What DOES the scripture declare, and what DID the church fathers teach?

2Thes.2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(Or i ask you concerning the Coming of Christ AND OUR GATHERING together to be with him... these are the 2 subjects at hand)

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

(Don't worry even if an angel tells you different or if you receive some letter supposedly from me saying the Day of Christ is at hand... meaning His coming and our gathering together to be with him)

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

( Don't let anyone fool you because Christ CANNOT come and neither can we be gathered to be with Him until these 2 things happen
1) the church must fall from the truth
2) the church must see Antichrist )

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

(Antichrist will sit in the temple of God claiming that he IS God)

[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

(Don't you remember when we went over these things?)

[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

(Now that I've told you again remember this time... NOW YOU KNOW what is witholding the coming of Christ and our gathering to be with Him)



Even Jesus declares in matthew 24:29-31, "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... then shall He send forth His angels and they shall gather His elect"

Daniel chapter 11:40-45 shows armageddon building and THEN in the next 2 verses of chapter 12 we see it is at THIS time that Gods people are delivered and the saints are raised from the ground.

Revelation 16:

[12] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

[13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

[14] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

[15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

[16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

[17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.





The above passage occurs very near the end of the tribulation. The events occurring here take place between the 6th and 7th vial. At the 6th vial the Euphrates river is dried to make way for 200,000,000 oriental troops. Not just the Chinese are involved, these are the KINGS, plural, of the east.

Satan is bent on the total annihilation of man as he sends forth seducing spirits to the kings of the world to draw them to their fiery end.

Looking at verse 14 of Revelation chapter 16, notice in particular the word “gather”, and notice that it is the armies of the world being gathered. This will take on great importance soon.
In verse 15 too we see a very important event where the Lord Suddenly proclaims “Behold I come as a thief”.

This is the rapture of the church.

The following passages will also bear out that when the Lord is referred to as coming as a thief, this is indeed a reference to the rapture;


1 Thes. 5

[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.





2 Peter 3

[1 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.




Rev. 3

[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


So we now can see easily that when we hear reference to Christ coming as a thief, it is Him coming for His church, and He comes expectantly on their part. He comes as a thief only to the world and to the slothful. This IS None other than the rapture, and as with EVERY other instance where we have a scripture timing the rapture, we can see it takes place VERY NEAR THE END of the tribulation AND NOT BEFORE the tribulation as is commonly taught.
So why is the pre trib rapture commonly taught? Because the scripture is fulfilled where we see the church has left behind sound doctrine and instead has given itself to cunningly devised fables.
We also have precedent to Revelation Chapter 16. We have the parable of the wheat and the tares, which describes the events of Rev 16:12-17 in perfection, backing up the fact that we as the church indeed go through the tribulation and are raptured very near the end of the tribulation.


Matthew 13:

[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

[3 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.





[37] He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

[38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

[4 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.





Now we must take this all the way back to the days of Adam and bring it up to the present time. John 1 tells us that all things were made by Christ and without Him was not anything made that was made. Genesis 1 tells us that god said “let US make man In OUR own image,” The Father speaking to the Son.


Then we come to this parable. Indeed The Son of man seeded the earth in a goodly fashion, but then man fell through disobedience, Eve being beguiled by the serpent, and then Adam seduced by her. Now when God cursed man and earth for this, we are told that Satan’s seed would be enemy of Gods seed through time. Satan did and still does have a seed. Cain was the first, murdering his righteous brother Able. Scripture and history are ripe with examples of this warfare. It will be carried through to the end at Armageddon.



In this parable we see that the enemy, Satan, sows into the world and the church, tares among the wheat, which is the harvest of God. God has had continual mercies on the tares of the world. He told Cain, “why look so down? Don’t you know that if you are obedient you will be accepted?” Great mercy He has always shown. God allowed the tares to grow among the wheat and in the judgment there will be NO excuse.

Now we see in this parable that the angels are the reapers. They go forth to gather the tares first to bundle them to be burnt. We aren’t told they are burnt at this time, but only that they are gathered first and bundled together in preparation to burning. This is consistent in that no farmer would tear the briars and weeds from his fence row and immediately try to burn them. They are still green, and need to dry out first. Now there are 2 forces of angels, fallen and non-fallen. Remembering this lets look again at Revelation 16:12-17. Notice that unclean Spirits come from the mouth of the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon. Unclean spirits are fallen angels, or demons; they are indeed one in the same. What is it these unclean spirits do? They GATHER the tares. The tares are bundled together in the valley of Meggido and prepared to be burnt through warfare first, then their final destruction by Christ at the end.
What happens after this? After the tares are bundled and prepared to be burnt, then “Behold I come as a thief!” Jesus returns for His church! Remember though that the angels are the reapers.


This is why it is said in Matthew 24:29-31;

[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[3 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.





So we see again that at His coming at the end of the tribulation Christ sends forth His holy angels as the reapers to gather His elect unto Himself.
All in all, when considering the scriptures, the parable of the wheat and the tares, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 12 and 21, 1 Thes 5, it is so apparent that Revelation 16:12-17 gives us this perfect picture in its reality. It is indeed the reality of the parable. It is the literal picture of the gathering of the tares to be burnt, and then the gathering of the wheat into the barn.

[bill16652]

Actually a simple belief in a pre trib rapture isnt dangerous at all... yet. I do sense that it will be in the future.

Lets say the scriptures teach a rapture very near the end of the tribulation. We know that the mark will come and that the world will be forced to take it. Lets say within the next few years, everyone was required to receive an electronic identification implant that would also be used for economic purposes. First of all no one would be able to buy and sell without it... BUT, there will be many going into the first calm prat of the 70th week believing in a pre trib rapture. When the mark is instituted I can see a possibility that behind many pulpits it will be taught "this cant be the mark of the beast, we havent been raptured yet." In this scenario how many people would receive the mark based on their pastors mistaken belief? I dont think this is far fetched, people generally trust their pastors.

Lets consider the doctrines too handed down from Christ through the apostles the early church fathers, and the first 1800 years of the church. This is partly how we actually determine what is sound and what is not. An end trib rapture was the ONLY one taught.

The pre trib rapture was originated by John Darby and Margaret Macdonald, who spoke of a 'secret' rapture before the tribulation. This was never taught in the first 1800 years.

Certainly one way also to determine what is sound and what is not, are 'declaritive' statements from the bible. For instance it declared all have sinned, so we KNOW all have sinned. It declares that the wages of sin is death so we KNOW this is true. It declares that Jesus is the Lamb of God who taketh upon Himself the sins of the world, so we KNOW it is sound.

One interesting aspect of the pre trib rapture is that there is not a single declaritive statement saying we are raptured 'before' the trib.

In another thread for instance you posted revelation 3 stating that the church who was faithful would be 'kept from' the evil to come. Think about this though... is God regulated to ONLY a pre trib rapture to accomplish this? No not at all. Consider the children of israel who were captive in egpyt... When Moses told Pharoah to 'let my people go', Pharoah refused 10 times and the plagues fell on all of Egypt... EXCEPT the land of Goshen in the midst of egypt, where Gods people lived... He KEPT them from the evil falling on Egypt mjiraculously, and certainly He can keep some in the coming tribulation.

Bear in mind we are never told in scripture that the rapture will be secret, quite the opposite, there are trupms sounding, the shout of the archangel, every sye seeing.

What DOES the scripture declare, and what DID the church fathers teach?

2Thes.2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(Or i ask you concerning the Coming of Christ AND OUR GATHERING together to be with him... these are the 2 subjects at hand)

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

(Don't worry even if an angel tells you different or if you receive some letter supposedly from me saying the Day of Christ is at hand... meaning His coming and our gathering together to be with him)

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

( Don't let anyone fool you because Christ CANNOT come and neither can we be gathered to be with Him until these 2 things happen
1) the church must fall from the truth
2) the church must see Antichrist )

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

(Antichrist will sit in the temple of God claiming that he IS God)

[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

(Don't you remember when we went over these things?)

[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

(Now that I've told you again remember this time... NOW YOU KNOW what is witholding the coming of Christ and our gathering to be with Him)



Even Jesus declares in matthew 24:29-31, "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... then shall He send forth His angels and they shall gather His elect"

Daniel chapter 11:40-45 shows armageddon building and THEN in the next 2 verses of chapter 12 we see it is at THIS time that Gods people are delivered and the saints are raised from the ground.

Revelation 16:

[12] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

[13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

[14] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

[15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

[16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

[17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.





The above passage occurs very near the end of the tribulation. The events occurring here take place between the 6th and 7th vial. At the 6th vial the Euphrates river is dried to make way for 200,000,000 oriental troops. Not just the Chinese are involved, these are the KINGS, plural, of the east.

Satan is bent on the total annihilation of man as he sends forth seducing spirits to the kings of the world to draw them to their fiery end.

Looking at verse 14 of Revelation chapter 16, notice in particular the word “gather”, and notice that it is the armies of the world being gathered. This will take on great importance soon.
In verse 15 too we see a very important event where the Lord Suddenly proclaims “Behold I come as a thief”.

This is the rapture of the church.

The following passages will also bear out that when the Lord is referred to as coming as a thief, this is indeed a reference to the rapture;


1 Thes. 5

[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.





2 Peter 3

[1 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.




Rev. 3

[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


So we now can see easily that when we hear reference to Christ coming as a thief, it is Him coming for His church, and He comes expectantly on their part. He comes as a thief only to the world and to the slothful. This IS None other than the rapture, and as with EVERY other instance where we have a scripture timing the rapture, we can see it takes place VERY NEAR THE END of the tribulation AND NOT BEFORE the tribulation as is commonly taught.
So why is the pre trib rapture commonly taught? Because the scripture is fulfilled where we see the church has left behind sound doctrine and instead has given itself to cunningly devised fables.
We also have precedent to Revelation Chapter 16. We have the parable of the wheat and the tares, which describes the events of Rev 16:12-17 in perfection, backing up the fact that we as the church indeed go through the tribulation and are raptured very near the end of the tribulation.


Matthew 13:

[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

[3 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.





[37] He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

[38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

[4 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.





Now we must take this all the way back to the days of Adam and bring it up to the present time. John 1 tells us that all things were made by Christ and without Him was not anything made that was made. Genesis 1 tells us that god said “let US make man In OUR own image,” The Father speaking to the Son.


Then we come to this parable. Indeed The Son of man seeded the earth in a goodly fashion, but then man fell through disobedience, Eve being beguiled by the serpent, and then Adam seduced by her. Now when God cursed man and earth for this, we are told that Satan’s seed would be enemy of Gods seed through time. Satan did and still does have a seed. Cain was the first, murdering his righteous brother Able. Scripture and history are ripe with examples of this warfare. It will be carried through to the end at Armageddon.



In this parable we see that the enemy, Satan, sows into the world and the church, tares among the wheat, which is the harvest of God. God has had continual mercies on the tares of the world. He told Cain, “why look so down? Don’t you know that if you are obedient you will be accepted?” Great mercy He has always shown. God allowed the tares to grow among the wheat and in the judgment there will be NO excuse.

Now we see in this parable that the angels are the reapers. They go forth to gather the tares first to bundle them to be burnt. We aren’t told they are burnt at this time, but only that they are gathered first and bundled together in preparation to burning. This is consistent in that no farmer would tear the briars and weeds from his fence row and immediately try to burn them. They are still green, and need to dry out first. Now there are 2 forces of angels, fallen and non-fallen. Remembering this lets look again at Revelation 16:12-17. Notice that unclean Spirits come from the mouth of the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon. Unclean spirits are fallen angels, or demons; they are indeed one in the same. What is it these unclean spirits do? They GATHER the tares. The tares are bundled together in the valley of Meggido and prepared to be burnt through warfare first, then their final destruction by Christ at the end.
What happens after this? After the tares are bundled and prepared to be burnt, then “Behold I come as a thief!” Jesus returns for His church! Remember though that the angels are the reapers.


This is why it is said in Matthew 24:29-31;

[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[3 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.





So we see again that at His coming at the end of the tribulation Christ sends forth His holy angels as the reapers to gather His elect unto Himself.
All in all, when considering the scriptures, the parable of the wheat and the tares, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 12 and 21, 1 Thes 5, it is so apparent that Revelation 16:12-17 gives us this perfect picture in its reality. It is indeed the reality of the parable. It is the literal picture of the gathering of the tares to be burnt, and then the gathering of the wheat into the barn.This is some very interesting reading. I would suggest that you take a look at feast of trumpets as much terminology of that feast fits very well with a rapture. Also look at Jewish wedding ceremonies and terminology and you will see that this also fits very nicely. When the bride is married they then enter into a cupola and that seals the wedding and an interesting thing about that back then was that it lasted one week. You will find wedding terminology all through the bible and this is not by accident. Look at Moses at the mountain with the children of Israel and you will see some interesting things. He is coming for His bride which is why I do not think all will go, only those that have that close relationship and know His voice, it will be across denominational lines, it will be a remnant, and yes there will be many things happen I thionk in a short period of time and this country had better wake up and very soon.

[Time2BCounted]

This is some very interesting reading. I would suggest that you take a look at feast of trumpets as much terminology of that feast fits very well with a rapture. Also look at Jewish wedding ceremonies and terminology and you will see that this also fits very nicely. When the bride is married they then enter into a cupola and that seals the wedding and an interesting thing about that back then was that it lasted one week. You will find wedding terminology all through the bible and this is not by accident. Look at Moses at the mountain with the children of Israel and you will see some interesting things. He is coming for His bride which is why I do not think all will go, only those that have that close relationship and know His voice, it will be across denominational lines, it will be a remnant, and yes there will be many things happen I thionk in a short period of time and this country had better wake up and very soon.
Hi Bill
Interesting post. Yes you do have some similarities, but lets consider a point here. If one believes in a pre trib rapture based on types and nothing more, could we not find a 'type' for anyhting that is not neccessarily sound doctrine? Types and shadows are fine in my book, but ONLY if they are enhancing a declaritive passage which the pre trib rapture doesnt have. We use types commonly only to enhance what is declared elsewhere.

There is a type however, which remains constand with declaritive statements in the bible concerning the rapture. This type would be the children of Israel in the land of Egypt when the plagues of God fell all around them, and yet they themselves were untouched... On the other hand, while they were not subject to God's wrath, Pharoah, in His anger, increased their burden continually. This is exactly what passages such as Danile 7 and daniel 11, 2 thes 2, Matthew 24 and etc show us imho.

Without declaritives, how safe is it to base a doctrine upon types and inuendo?

[Hentenza]

Hi Bill
Interesting post. Yes you do have some similarities, but lets consider a point here. If one believes in a pre trib rapture based on types and nothing more, could we not find a 'type' for anyhting that is not neccessarily sound doctrine? Types and shadows are fine in my book, but ONLY if they are enhancing a declaritive passage which the pre trib rapture doesnt have. We use types commonly only to enhance what is declared elsewhere.

There is a type however, which remains constand with declaritive statements in the bible concerning the rapture. This type would be the children of Israel in the land of Egypt when the plagues of God fell all around them, and yet they themselves were untouched... On the other hand, while they were not subject to God's wrath, Pharoah, in His anger, increased their burden continually. This is exactly what passages such as Danile 7 and daniel 11, 2 thes 2, Matthew 24 and etc show us imho.

Without declaritives, how safe is it to base a doctrine upon types and inuendo?

Hi T2BC,

I find a problem with your use of types. Typology describes a type as a symbol that represents something else. The problem is that a type is always identified as such in the NT. For example, prophetic type is easily recognizable because the NT writers will always recognize it and mention it.

What you are describing is actually an illustration which is finding correlations between the OT and the NT. These illustrations are not specifically recognized by the NT writers. For example, many people see parallels between Joseph (Genesis 37-45) and Jesus. The humiliation and subsequent glorification of Joseph seem to correspond to the death and resurrection of Christ. However, the NT never uses Joseph as a model of Christ, therefore, Joseph’s story is properly called an illustration, but not a type, of Christ.

The problem with illustrations is that they are highly open to interpretation and therefore, play a dangerous role in doctrine.

[Time2BCounted]

Hi T2BC,

I find a problem with your use of types. Typology describes a type as a symbol that represents something else. The problem is that a type is always identified as such in the NT. For example, prophetic type is easily recognizable because the NT writers will always recognize it and mention it.

What you are describing is actually an illustration which is finding correlations between the OT and the NT. These illustrations are not specifically recognized by the NT writers. For example, many people see parallels between Joseph (Genesis 37-45) and Jesus. The humiliation and subsequent glorification of Joseph seem to correspond to the death and resurrection of Christ. However, the NT never uses Joseph as a model of Christ, therefore, Joseph’s story is properly called an illustration, but not a type, of Christ.

The problem with illustrations is that they are highly open to interpretation and therefore, play a dangerous role in doctrine.
i agree that types and such can certainly be dangerous to base a doctrine upon.

The doctrine shoudl be based on plainly stated declarations such as 'from all have sinned' or 'repent and be baptized'. From there we can tag types and shadows to the doctrine for illustration. For instance bapsism is typed by noahs flood which baptized the world, cleansing it of grossly sinful man.

For this reason alone a pre trib rapture shoudl be eliminated from the category of 'sound doctrine' in my opinion.

What is actually declared is that we will see the man of sin sit in the temple of God claiming to be God according to 2 thes 2, and this places us squarely in the tribulation. It is quite decisively stated too by, 'concerning our gathering together unto Him... that day shall not come... that man of sin be revealed... sitting in the temple of God, claiming that he IS God'

In revelation 11 we see the 7th trumpet... no trump follows it. During the 7th trump we are told that this is the time that the church is rewarded... at the time that Christ takes the kingdoms of the world. We are not rewarded 7 years prior as according to pre trib teaching.

Paul also tells us we are resurrected at the last trump.

Daniel 11:40-12:2 tells us that at the time of armageddon we rise from the grave and His people are delivered, not 7 years prior.

This too is what the early church fathers taught for the first 1800 years of the church, so an end trib rapture is exatly what was historicly taught, and the pretrib rapture is 'new doctrine' which in itself makes it suspect. When taking into account too that it has no declaritive scripture, but is based entirely on types and shadows, it becomes much more than suspect imho.

The bible certainly seems to indicate and 'very near the end of trib rapture' by declaritive statements alone. On these we can safely add types and shadow for illustration.

[bill16652]

Hi Bill
Interesting post. Yes you do have some similarities, but lets consider a point here. If one believes in a pre trib rapture based on types and nothing more, could we not find a 'type' for anyhting that is not neccessarily sound doctrine? Types and shadows are fine in my book, but ONLY if they are enhancing a declaritive passage which the pre trib rapture doesnt have. We use types commonly only to enhance what is declared elsewhere.

There is a type however, which remains constand with declaritive statements in the bible concerning the rapture. This type would be the children of Israel in the land of Egypt when the plagues of God fell all around them, and yet they themselves were untouched... On the other hand, while they were not subject to God's wrath, Pharoah, in His anger, increased their burden continually. This is exactly what passages such as Danile 7 and daniel 11, 2 thes 2, Matthew 24 and etc show us imho.

Without declaritives, how safe is it to base a doctrine upon types and inuendo?I thimk pretty safe since the weddinmg terminology is from Gods own mouth. Like I said look at Israel when Moses got the commandments. God betrohed them which in the Jewish is the sdame as being married but without the consummation. In order to break that you have to get a git or divorce even though it is not consummated which is why God could divorce Israel and still have her as His bride later. Many believe that when Moses went up on the mountain the people were actually under the mountain or in the cupola. This terminology is all through the bible. Do I believe that we need to hear Gods voice and be close, of course as that is how a bride acts towards her husband. We need to hear right now to know how to prepare for what is coming. I believe that the bride, the remnant, will be here to go through quite a few things in a short period of time and then be taken out. Remember that for tribulation to come there has to be a great unsettling through the world and we can see this in this country right now and as much as I hate to say it when I look at Deutermanns prophecies and George Washingtons vision, and things I have recieved myself I know that we are in for a rough ride. Our only hope is in Jesus and that will determine if we pass through the troubles or go through them. It is not the church that will be taken out but rather those that are the bride and have that special relationship. You look at the church today and you see the apostasy and it is ripe to be led into a false religion, many are already there.

[bill16652]

Hi T2BC,

I find a problem with your use of types. Typology describes a type as a symbol that represents something else. The problem is that a type is always identified as such in the NT. For example, prophetic type is easily recognizable because the NT writers will always recognize it and mention it.

What you are describing is actually an illustration which is finding correlations between the OT and the NT. These illustrations are not specifically recognized by the NT writers. For example, many people see parallels between Joseph (Genesis 37-45) and Jesus. The humiliation and subsequent glorification of Joseph seem to correspond to the death and resurrection of Christ. However, the NT never uses Joseph as a model of Christ, therefore, Joseph’s story is properly called an illustration, but not a type, of Christ.

The problem with illustrations is that they are highly open to interpretation and therefore, play a dangerous role in doctrine.Please look at the feasts wghich are mentioned quite a bit and the symbology is all over. All the spring feasts have been fulfilled in Christ. The only ones left are the fall feasts and I think you will find the feast of trumpets very interesting as well as the period leading up to it. NT does talk about the bride, the catching away, and many other things and all through you can see Jewish wedding terms. This ties in nicely with the OT especially where the prophets are concerned and God Himself.

[Lisa0315]

I think many of the points that were brought up that opposes Pre-trib can reasonably be applied to End-Trib as well. If it is dangerous to teach that we will not have to worry about taking the mark, what power will we be given to resist if we do remain?

Also, I thought the traditional teaching of the church was Mid-Trib rather than End-Trib.

Lisa

[Iosias]

Why are people so against Pre-Trib other than it is a relatively new doctrine?

Because it runs against the teaching of Scripture.

[bill16652]

Because it runs against the teaching of Scripture.I dont see that, as a matter of fact I once talked with an end tribber and the interesting thing was we were both using pretty much the same scriptures to support our views and that was before I went into the Jewishness of the Bible.

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

I've always favored pre-tribulation in my thoughts on the rapture. Perhaps its just wishful thinking. But it's entirely possible that we will have to go through at least part of it...really don't think it will be for long though.

I found this lil guy and thought it would be appropriate to post here.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5448/rapturekk2.gif

[Iosias]

I dont see that, as a matter of fact I once talked with an end tribber and the interesting thing was we were both using pretty much the same scriptures to support our views and that was before I went into the Jewishness of the Bible.

I do not doubt you can find Scripture to support your interpretation but then Mormons, JWs etc can find Scripture to defend their own positions. The question is whether the rapture theory arises from the natural unfolding of redemptive history. One key assumption of the pretribulational rapture is a distinction between Israel and the Church. Hence a pretribulationalist is dispensational in their hermenutics.

I am sure we would appeal to the same texts but how we fit them together would, certainly, differ.

This (http://reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/rapture.htm) makes a good read as is this (http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/milenium.htm) (Note I agree with his case against premillennialism only; I am not a postmil) and this (http://www.reformationonline.com/rapture.htm).

If you have not read it I would suggest you purchase this (http://www.monergismbooks.com/amillennial435x.html). :thumbsup:

[Iosias]

I've always favored pre-tribulation in my thoughts on the rapture.

Care to explain why?

[Time2BCounted]

Lets get back to the basic premice here.

First of all, i would challenge anyone believing in the pre trib rapture, not to post a scriptural type or shadow, but an actual passage declaring we will be raptured before the trib, just as we would require of any other doctrine.

A small hint... there isnt any ;)

Since the pre trib rapture departs then from the regulation of sound doctrine, why would it be so hard to believe the words of Christ where He states "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" the elect would be gathered.

Why would it be hard to believe the resurrection takes place at the time of armageddon as stated in danile 11:40-12:2?

Why is it hard to believe that it occurs at the last trump? Why is it hard to believe that at the 7th trump the saints are rewarded as in rev 11?

Why is it hard to believe we are resurrected AT His coming as stated in 1 cor 15:19-21?

Why is it hard to believe the resurrection takes place at the last day as stated by Jesus Himself so many times?

Lacking any declaritive scripture, the pre trib rapture is more than quesitonable, but when we see all these other passages actually declaring the time to be at the end, the pre trib rapture begins to fly in the face of scripture imho.

As for what was taught in the church for the first 1800 years, we have this...




Hermas (40-140): "Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire [of the Great Tribulation that is yet to come], will be purified by means of it....Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints..." (The Pastor of Hermas, Vision 4).

Justin Martyr (100-168): "The man of apostasy [Antichrist], who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians..." (Dialogue With Trypho, 110).

Melito (100-170): "For with all his strength did the adversary assail us, even then giving a foretaste of his activity among us [during the Great Tribulation] which is to be without restraint..." (Discourse on the Resurrection, i, 8).

Irenaeus (140-202): "And they [the ten kings who shall arise] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight" (Against Heresies, V, 26).

Tertullian (150-220): "The souls of the martyrs are taught to wait [Rev. 6]...that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God..." (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, 25).

Hippolytus (160-240): "...the one thousand two hundred and three score days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains" (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61).

Cyprian (200-258): "The day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of the Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle..." (Epistle, 55, 1).

Victorinus (240-303): "...the times of Antichrist, when all shall be injured" (Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John, VI, 5).

Lactantius (240-330): "And power will be given him [Antichrist] to desolate the whole earth for forty-two months....When these things shall so happen, then the righteous and the followers of truth shall separate themselves from the wicked, and flee into solitudes" (Divine Institutes, VII, 17).

Athanasius (293-373): "...they have not spared Thy servants, but are preparing the way for Antichrist" (History of the Arians, VIII, 79).

Ephraim the Syrian (306-373): "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..." (Sermo Asceticus, I).

Pseudo-Ephraem (4th century?): "...there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [Antichrist]..." (On the Last Times, the Antichrist etc., 2).

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): "The Church declares to thee the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive...it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself ready beforehand" (Catechetical Lectures, 15, 9).

Jerome (340-420): "I told you that Christ would not come unless Antichrist had come before" (Epistle 21).

Chrysostom (345-407): "...the time of Antichrist...will be a sign of the coming of Christ..." (Homilies on First Thessalonians, 9).

Augustine (354-430): "But he who reads this passage [Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church..." (The City of God, XX, 23).

Venerable Bede (673-735): "[The Church's triumph will] follow the reign of Antichrist" (The Explanation of the Apocalypse, II, 8).

Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153): "There remains only one thing----that the demon of noonday [Antichrist] should appear, to seduce those who remain still in Christ..." (Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16).

Roger Bacon (1214-1274): "...because of future perils [for the Church] in the times of Antichrist..." (Opus Majus, II, p. 634).

John Wycliffe (1320-1384): "Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev. iii" (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wickliff, D.D., p. 155).

Martin Luther (1483-1546): "[The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church..." (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481).

Menno Simons (1496-1561): "...He will appear as a triumphant prince and a victorious king to bring judgment. Then will those who persecute us look upon Him..." (Complete Writings..., p. 622).

John Calvin (1509-1564): "...we ought to follow in our inquiries after Antichrist, especially where such pride proceeds to a public desolation of the church" (Institutes, Vol. 2, p. 411).

John Knox (1515-1572): "...the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarn of dangers to come, so many years before they come to pass...to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist, The Whore of Babylon" (The History of the Reformation..., I, p. 76).

John Fox (1516-1587): "...that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church...to disturb the whole Church of Christ..." (Acts and Monuments, I).

Roger Williams (1603-1683): "Antichrist...hath his prisons, to keep Christ Jesus and his members fast..." (The Bloody Tenent, of Persecution, p. 153).

John Bunyan (1628-1688): "He comes in flaming fire [as Judge] and...the trump of God sounds in the air, the dead to hear his voice..." (The Last Four Things: Of Judgment).

Daniel Whitby (1638-1726): "...after the Fall of Antichrist, there shall be such a glorious State of the Church...so shall this be the Church of Martyrs, and of those who had not received the Mark of the Beast..." (A Paraphrase and Commentary, p. 696).

Increase Mather (1639-1723): "That part of the world [Europe] was to be principally the Seat of the Church of Christ during the Reign of Antichrist" (Ichabod, p. 64).

Matthew Henry (1662-1714): "Those who keep the gospel in a time of peace shall be kept by Christ in an hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]" (Commentary, VI, p. 1134).

Cotton Mather (1663-1728): "...that New Jerusalem, whereto the Church is to be advanced, when the Mystical Babylon shall be fallen" (The Wonders of the Invisible World, p. 3).

John Wesley (1703-1791): "'The stars shall...fall from heaven,' (Revelation, vi. 13)....And then shall be heard the universal shout...followed by the 'voice of the archangel,'...'and the trumpet of God'...(I Thessalonians iv. 16)." (The Works of the Rev. John Wesley, A.M., Vol. V, p. 173).

George Whitefield (1714-1770): "...'while the bridegroom tarried,' in the space of time which passeth between our Lord's ascension and his coming again to judgment..." (Gillies' Memoirs of Rev. George Whitefield, p. 471).

David Brainerd (1718-1747): "...and I could not but hope, that the time was at hand, when Babylon the great would fall and rise no more" (Memoirs..., p. 326).

John Newton (1725-1807): "'Fear not temptation's fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. Thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour [Revelation 3:10] will soon be past'" (The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol. II, p. 152).

Adam Clarke (1762-1832): "We which are alive, and remain...he [Paul] is speaking of the genuine Christians which shall be found on earth when Christ comes to judgment" (Commentary, Vol. VI, p. 550).

Charles Hodge (1797-1878): "...the fate of his Church here on earth...is the burden of the Apocalypse" (Systematic Theology, Vol. III, p. 827).

Albert Barnes (1798-1870): "...he will keep them in the future trials that shall come upon the world [Revelation 3:10]" (Notes on the New Testament, p. 94).

George Mueller (1805-1898): "The Scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostacy shall have taken place, and the man of sin...shall have been revealed..." (Mrs. Mueller's Missionary Tours and Labours, p. 148).

Benjamin W. Newton (1805-1898): "The Secret Rapture was bad enough, but this [John Darby's equally novel idea that the book of Matthew is on 'Jewish' ground instead of 'Church' ground] was worse" (unpublished Fry MS. and F. Roy Coad's Prophetic Developments, p. 29).

R. C. Trench (1807-1886): "...the Philadelphian church...to be kept in temptation, not to be exempted from temptation..." (Seven Churches of Asia, pp. 183-184).

Carl F. Keil (1807-1888): "...the persecution of the last enemy Antichrist against the church of the Lord..." (Biblical Commentary, Vol. XXXIV, p. 503).

John Lillie (1812-1867): "In his [Antichrist's] days was to be the great----the last----tribulation of the Church" (Second Thessalonians, pp. 537-538).

F. L. Godet (1812-1900): "The gathering of the elect [Matthew 24:31]...is mentioned by St. Paul, 1 Thess. 4:16, 17, 2 Thess. 2:1..." (Commentary on Luke, p. 452).

Robert Murray McCheyne (1813-1842): "Christians must have 'great tribulation'; but they come out of it" (Bonar's Memoirs of McCheyne, p. 26).

S. P. Tregelles (1813-1875): "The Scripture teaches the Church to wait for the manifestation of Christ. The secret theory bids us to expect a coming before any such manifestation" (The Hope of Christ's Second Coming, p. 71).

Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890): "...the approaching day is the day of Christ, who comes...for final judgment" (Commentary on Hebrews, Vol. II, p. 183).

C. J. Ellicott (1819-1905): "[I Thessalonians 4:17] 'to meet the Lord,' as He is coming down to earth..." (Commentary on the Thessalonian Epistles, p. 66).

Nathaniel West (1826-1906): "[The Pre-Trib Rapture] is built on a postulate, vicious in logic, violent in exegesis, contrary to experience, repudiated by the early Church, contradicted by the testimony of eighteen hundred years...and condemned by all the standard scholars of every age" (The Apostle Paul and the "Any Moment" Theory, p. 30).

Alexander Maclaren (1826-1910): "He will keep us in the midst of, and also from, the hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]" (The Epistles of John, Jude and the Book of Revelation, p. 266).

J. H. Thayer (1828-1901): "To keep [Revelation 3:10]:...by guarding, to cause one to escape in safety out of" (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 622).

Adolph Saphir (1831-1891): "...the advent of the Messiah...to which both the believing synagogue and the church of the Lord Jesus Christ are looking..." (The Epistle to the Hebrews, Vol. I, p. 96).

M. R. Vincent (1834-1922): "The preposition ['from'] implies, not a keeping from temptation, but a keeping in temptation [Revelation 3:10]..." (Word Studies..., p. 466).


Now we see that for the first 1800 years of the church, the end trib rapture was taught. Pre trib never existed before 1830.

The conservative belief therefore would not be pre trib at all :)

It is wise to not build doctrine on types and shadows, but rather the declaritive statements of God imho.

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

Care to explain why?
Well, I think it was the way I was brought up. We went to an AG church and that's what was taught. Not sure if it's a doctrinal thing or just what the Pastor believed.

I went to Trinity Bible College for one semester. One of the classes I took covered Revelation and it was the first time I'd heard about anything other than the pre-trib viewpoint. I remember being shocked that anyone would think anything else. :P Wasn't too thrilled to hear the end-tribbers view either. But I can agree with the mid-trib.

For me, the bottom line is that Jesus is coming. When that will be, no man knows.

[bill16652]

Well, I think it was the way I was brought up. We went to an AG church and that's what was taught. Not sure if it's a doctrinal thing or just what the Pastor believed.

I went to Trinity Bible College for one semester. One of the classes I took covered Revelation and it was the first time I'd heard about anything other than the pre-trib viewpoint. I remember being shocked that anyone would think anything else. :P Wasn't too thrilled to hear the end-tribbers view either. But I can agree with the mid-trib.

For me, the bottom line is that Jesus is coming. When that will be, no man knows.And therein lies my basic p[roblem with end trib. No man knows the day and hour yet we do know that the tribulation has a set time period, 7 years. We know when the tribulation begins (when a peace treaty is signed with Israel by the antichrist), so knowing that it is easy to figure out. As far as pre trib it is sound and when viewed from the feast of trumpets it really makes sense. The trump is sounded to declare the feast, there are two days set aside to declare it so no man knows the day or hour. Even though you do not accept the type and shadows, everything major in Jesus life seems to have happened on and around the feasts. All the spring feasts have been fulfilled in Chjrist so it follows that all the fall feasts will also be fulfilled in Christ.

[Time2BCounted]

And therein lies my basic p[roblem with end trib. No man knows the day and hour yet we do know that the tribulation has a set time period, 7 years. We know when the tribulation begins (when a peace treaty is signed with Israel by the antichrist), so knowing that it is easy to figure out. As far as pre trib it is sound and when viewed from the feast of trumpets it really makes sense. The trump is sounded to declare the feast, there are two days set aside to declare it so no man knows the day or hour. Even though you do not accept the type and shadows, everything major in Jesus life seems to have happened on and around the feasts. All the spring feasts have been fulfilled in Chjrist so it follows that all the fall feasts will also be fulfilled in Christ.
I understand your thought here but dont forget Bill, if time is not cut short there will be no flesh left alive... by how much time is time cut short?

Therein lies the crux of no man knowing the day or the hour.

[bill16652]

I understand your thought here but dont forget Bill, if time is not cut short there will be no flesh left alive... by how much time is time cut short?

Therein lies the crux of no man knowing the day or the hour.Then we come back to the written word and the fact that tribulation is nailed down very specificlly as 42 months and 42 months, two halves. That time be shortened can also be used to support pre trib as well.

[Time2BCounted]

Yes Bill, but there is a differance.

What is the differance between the pre trib rapture and the end trib rapture and which is scripturally sound?

1) there is not a single passage in all of scripture declaring a pre trib rapture, and this is a must in determining what is sound doctrine, otherwise we only have conjecture on possibly types and this is a dangerous way to base any doctrine. Matter of fact we dont have a major doctrine which is NOT stated outright. Every major doctrine has declaritive scripture to found upon... except the pre trib rapture.

2) Alll the early church fathers taught an end trib rapture. Every one. Up until the 1830s, and therefore the pre trib rapture is not the doctrine handed down from the early church fathers for the first 1800 years of the church.

3) The following scriptures actually declare an end trib resurrection and or rapture, and there is no mention of one before this.


a) Daniel 11:40-12:1

[4 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

[41] He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

[42] He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

[43] But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

[44] But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

[45] And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.





Dan.12

[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


VERY interesting passage here! What is it that this passage tells us about the timing of the rapture? Well we see that Armageddonwhen all of a sudden, as Jerusalem is surrounded by all the major armies of the world, we see Michael standing for the children of God, Jew and Gentile! It's at THIS TIME that ALL who are written in the Lambs book of life are delivered! Are Christians written in this book? Well if they're not they are doomed for all eternity. So what we see here is that we are delivered (raptured) around the time Armageddon is starting.

b) Matthew 24:
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[3 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


c) 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

[2 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Here we are told plainly that Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection, and that ALL those who are His will be resurrected "AT HIS COMING".



1 Corinthians 15:50-53

[5 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.





We see here another timing passage concerning the rapture. We are told that the coming resurrection takes place "at the last trump". Now Revelation shows us the 7 trumpets which sound during the tribulation. If the resurrection takes place before the 7th trumpet is sounded then this passage is innacurate, and i just cant believe this. And here we see the last trump, the 7th trump, no other trump mentioned in revelation after this one...




Revelation 11:15-19

[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

[17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.



This is the 7th trump as it is sounded. Here we see as 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 verified, that at the 7th trump the dead are judged and the saints are rewarded.
Now consider closely verse 15. We are told outright again, that this is the time that Christ takes the kingdoms of the world.




Revelation 10: 7 shows us too that the sounding of the 7th trump lasts for a period of "days" so it allows a time span between the resurrection of the dead and the taking of the kingdoms of the world by Christ. When we add the information we have too, concerning the trumps, seals, and vials, and what we have yin Matthew, Mark and Daniel, we see that this time is very limited to the closing days of the tribulation.



d) 1 Thess. 4:13-18

[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



Verse 15 here tells us that those living at the time of the rapture REMAIN til the coming of Christ. We see also that the dead rise prior to this and return with Christ. As we saw in earlier scripture, the dead will rise to Christ, those living are changed and then remain until His coming, but we all meet the Lord in the air and escort Him back to the earth in His triumphant glory.



2 Thess. 2:1-6

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.




This passage too, times the rapture of the church. We are told that concerning the coming of Christ AND our gathering to Him, this cannot take place until we see 2 things.




The first is the apostasy. This is the departure of the truth that must come, and is here concerning the church and the faith.




The second thing we must see is the abomination of desolation. This is when antichrist enters a rebuilt Jewish temple, stands in the Holy of Holies, and claims that he is God. This happens very near the end of the tribulation. The rapture of the church CANNOT happen before this.


There are several more passages declaring outright for us when the resurreciton occurs. This is the differance between the validity of the pre trib rapture, and the validity of an end trib rapture, and the church fathers agreed for the first 1800 years of the church. :)

God bless ya Bill

[bill16652]

Yes Bill, but there is a differance.

What is the differance between the pre trib rapture and the end trib rapture and which is scripturally sound?

1) there is not a single passage in all of scripture declaring a pre trib rapture, and this is a must in determining what is sound doctrine, otherwise we only have conjecture on possibly types and this is a dangerous way to base any doctrine. Matter of fact we dont have a major doctrine which is NOT stated outright. Every major doctrine has declaritive scripture to found upon... except the pre trib rapture.

2) Alll the early church fathers taught an end trib rapture. Every one. Up until the 1830s, and therefore the pre trib rapture is not the doctrine handed down from the early church fathers for the first 1800 years of the church.

3) The following scriptures actually declare an end trib resurrection and or rapture, and there is no mention of one before this.


a) Daniel 11:40-12:1

[4 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

[41] He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

[42] He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

[43] But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

[44] But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

[45] And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.





Dan.12

[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


VERY interesting passage here! What is it that this passage tells us about the timing of the rapture? Well we see that Armageddonwhen all of a sudden, as Jerusalem is surrounded by all the major armies of the world, we see Michael standing for the children of God, Jew and Gentile! It's at THIS TIME that ALL who are written in the Lambs book of life are delivered! Are Christians written in this book? Well if they're not they are doomed for all eternity. So what we see here is that we are delivered (raptured) around the time Armageddon is starting.

b) Matthew 24:
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[3 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


c) 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

[2 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Here we are told plainly that Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection, and that ALL those who are His will be resurrected "AT HIS COMING".



1 Corinthians 15:50-53

[5 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.





We see here another timing passage concerning the rapture. We are told that the coming resurrection takes place "at the last trump". Now Revelation shows us the 7 trumpets which sound during the tribulation. If the resurrection takes place before the 7th trumpet is sounded then this passage is innacurate, and i just cant believe this. And here we see the last trump, the 7th trump, no other trump mentioned in revelation after this one...




Revelation 11:15-19

[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

[17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.



This is the 7th trump as it is sounded. Here we see as 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 verified, that at the 7th trump the dead are judged and the saints are rewarded.
Now consider closely verse 15. We are told outright again, that this is the time that Christ takes the kingdoms of the world.




Revelation 10: 7 shows us too that the sounding of the 7th trump lasts for a period of "days" so it allows a time span between the resurrection of the dead and the taking of the kingdoms of the world by Christ. When we add the information we have too, concerning the trumps, seals, and vials, and what we have yin Matthew, Mark and Daniel, we see that this time is very limited to the closing days of the tribulation.



d) 1 Thess. 4:13-18

[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



Verse 15 here tells us that those living at the time of the rapture REMAIN til the coming of Christ. We see also that the dead rise prior to this and return with Christ. As we saw in earlier scripture, the dead will rise to Christ, those living are changed and then remain until His coming, but we all meet the Lord in the air and escort Him back to the earth in His triumphant glory.



2 Thess. 2:1-6

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.




This passage too, times the rapture of the church. We are told that concerning the coming of Christ AND our gathering to Him, this cannot take place until we see 2 things.




The first is the apostasy. This is the departure of the truth that must come, and is here concerning the church and the faith.




The second thing we must see is the abomination of desolation. This is when antichrist enters a rebuilt Jewish temple, stands in the Holy of Holies, and claims that he is God. This happens very near the end of the tribulation. The rapture of the church CANNOT happen before this.


There are several more passages declaring outright for us when the resurreciton occurs. This is the differance between the validity of the pre trib rapture, and the validity of an end trib rapture, and the church fathers agreed for the first 1800 years of the church. :)

God bless ya BillThis post while clear is confusing in the context in which you are referring. First if we are honest, rapture isnt in the bible but I think most of us believe in it no matter the timing. The second thing is that you have many things run together, there is resurrection, judgement, Christ coming to Aermegedden and honestly this is confusing because whiole they nay happen fast they are all seperate important events. My belief is simply that Christ takes His bride out and hides her away for the seven year period, I dont see how it can be otherwise for most would agree that the Holy Spirit, the true church is what himnders and would Christ leave His bride here powerless? Again look at the Jerwishness of all this. Even the last trump can be explained in the Feast of Trumpets. I trilyt believe that marriage and betrohal is mentioned and used so much in the bible is because that is how Christ views those that are truly His and how God views Israel.

[Time2BCounted]

This post while clear is confusing in the context in which you are referring. First if we are honest, rapture isnt in the bible but I think most of us believe in it no matter the timing. The second thing is that you have many things run together, there is resurrection, judgement, Christ coming to Aermegedden and honestly this is confusing because whiole they nay happen fast they are all seperate important events. My belief is simply that Christ takes His bride out and hides her away for the seven year period, I dont see how it can be otherwise for most would agree that the Holy Spirit, the true church is what himnders and would Christ leave His bride here powerless? Again look at the Jerwishness of all this. Even the last trump can be explained in the Feast of Trumpets. I trilyt believe that marriage and betrohal is mentioned and used so much in the bible is because that is how Christ views those that are truly His and how God views Israel.
Bill, i do understand your conviction here brother, and i too have studied that possible angle.

Here's the problem i see.

First of all, it wasnt until after the 1830s that this doctrine of the Holy Spirit being the 'hinderer' came along. This was by neccessity due to lack of any declaritive scripture, and also very much due to the fact that if we actually read 2 thes 2:1-6 in proper context, what it seems to say fairly plainly imho, is that "concerning the coming of Christ and our gathering together unto Him (the resurrection and the rapture), i dont want you to be so worried thinking that the time is now. Two things MUST happen bofore we can be gathered unto Him...

1) We must see the apostacy

2) We must see the man of sin sitting in the temple of God claiming he IS God.

This pretty much have to occer well into the tribulation, and according to the timelines, right about the time of armageddon.

Then paul states, "dont you remember when i was with you i taught you this?"

So it seems this was a pretty important doctrine to paul. He tried to be very clear to them.

What he is fortelling as being restrained the first time in this passage is the coming of Christ. That day cannot come until these 2 things happen

[Time2BCounted]

Another thing i find interesting is the parable of the wheat and tares, as it may apply to rev 16.

Matthew 13:24-30 & 37-43

[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.


[3 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

[37] He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

[38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

[4 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.





In the parable of the wheat and the tares we are shown that before the wheat can be gathered into the barn, the tares must be gathered and bundled to be burnt. This in itself can become an important issue concerning rapture timing imho. After the tares are gathered, and before we are told they are burnt, the wheat is gathered by the holy angels. The tares too are gathered and bundled by the angels.

We find an actual picture of this very thing in Revelation 16:12-17.



Revelation 16:12-17

[12] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

[13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

[14] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

[15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

[16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.





This is the perfect picture of the parable of the wheat and the tares. Verse 13 and 14 we see 3 fallen angels, (reapers) going forth to deceive the world to draw them to the battle of Armageddon. This is the bundling of the tares and THEY WILL BE BURNT, by battle and then the destruction brought by Christ Himself.


What we see then is verse 15 when Christ comes as a thief, which has already been established as a reference to the rapture. Since we are told in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 that it is the angels (reapers) that gather the elect, we see this is the fulfillment of the wheat being gathered to the barn AFTER the tares are bundled to be burnt. Immediately after this we see the 7th vial, and it is done. Christ takes the kingdoms of the world.


Revelation 19:2-9

[2] For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

[3] And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

[4] And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

[5] And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

[6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

[7] Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

[8] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

[9] And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


Finally, here we see the wedding supper of the Lamb of God! Pre-trib teachers mostly teach that we are in heaven during the 7-year tribulation, which has now been shown to be untrue. They also teach that during this 7 years we are rewarded, which again has been shown to be unscriptural. It is also taught that that is the time when we enjoy the wedding supper of God, which this passage shows to be untrue! Verse 2 shows us that the wedding supper takes place AFTER the destruction of Mystery Babylon! This again, happens very near the end of the tribulation!

[bill16652]

Bill, i do understand your conviction here brother, and i too have studied that possible angle.

Here's the problem i see.

First of all, it wasnt until after the 1830s that this doctrine of the Holy Spirit being the 'hinderer' came along. This was by neccessity due to lack of any declaritive scripture, and also very much due to the fact that if we actually read 2 thes 2:1-6 in proper context, what it seems to say fairly plainly imho, is that "concerning the coming of Christ and our gathering together unto Him (the resurrection and the rapture), i dont want you to be so worried thinking that the time is now. Two things MUST happen bofore we can be gathered unto Him...

1) We must see the apostacy

2) We must see the man of sin sitting in the temple of God claiming he IS God.

This pretty much have to occer well into the tribulation, and according to the timelines, right about the time of armageddon.

Then paul states, "dont you remember when i was with you i taught you this?"

So it seems this was a pretty important doctrine to paul. He tried to be very clear to them.

What he is fortelling as being restrained the first time in this passage is the coming of Christ. That day cannot come until these 2 things happenAh and therein lies the crux of the problem as pre trib abd I believe the coming in the clouds is a seperate happening from the touching down on the mount of olives. Second if you look you will see that the temple is dessecrated in the middle after the 42ng week, not at the end. For evil to run rampant the hinderer has to be taken out before. I believe that those who are watching the signs that are happening right now will indeed be able to discern who willbe the antichrist for if we believe these are the last days then this man is already in place rising in his field and getting ready to step in.

[Iosias]

Well, I think it was the way I was brought up. We went to an AG church and that's what was taught. Not sure if it's a doctrinal thing or just what the Pastor believed.

I went to Trinity Bible College for one semester. One of the classes I took covered Revelation and it was the first time I'd heard about anything other than the pre-trib viewpoint. I remember being shocked that anyone would think anything else. :P Wasn't too thrilled to hear the end-tribbers view either. But I can agree with the mid-trib.

For me, the bottom line is that Jesus is coming. When that will be, no man knows.

Question: What are the foundations for your belief in a pretribulational rapture?
1. You must believe in a tribulation.
2. You must hold to a futurist interpretation of Revelation.

Question2: Why do you believe in a tribulation?

Question3: Why can we not go through the tribulation?

[Iosias]

Then we come back to the written word and the fact that tribulation is nailed down very specificlly as 42 months and 42 months, two halves.

Founded upon what Scripture?

[Time2BCounted]

Bill,
Concerning the restrainer, lets consider the passage again from 2 Thes 2, and see where scripture would lead us in its words and consistancy in precedent.

2 Thessalonians 2
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Most of us who study end times prophecy and the coming rise of the antichrist, are familiar with this passage. To the new reader of scripture this can be a very confusing passage because of the old English used here.. The word here that was translated "letteth", and "let" actually mean to "hinder", as you alredy know. This being the case it should read "Only he who hinders will hinder until he be taken out of the way".


SOMETHING WITHHOLDS THE ANTICHRIST.

The withholder is referred to as a "he". What or who is this that withholds the rise of antichrist? Is it the Church? The Holy Spirit? The angels? Jesus? This is very important question, since many people have built a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine on the answer.


Some people think the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the earth. No scriptural passage at all ever tells us this. We are told that there will be those that are saved during the tribulation, so we know that the Holy Spirit will necessarily be present during the antichrist's rule.


Others think this is the Church being taken and therefore allowing Antichrist to rise. However, when "he" is taken out of the way, it won't be the Church. The Church is not a HE. It is a SHE – the Bride of Christ. Also the church HAS NEVER withheld evil, and all to often has endorsed such evil acts. One good example of this would be the clergy in Nazi Germany.


The scripture does not support the notion that either the Church or the Holy Ghost prevents the Antichrist from being revealed. To hold to such an idea is at best conjecture no matter who we hold the restrainer to be. What we are left with then, imho, is to simply look to the scriptures for the most likely precedents to come to as correct an understanding as possible.

There are also just too many passages telling us that in fact that the church will fall away from the truth before the coming of Christ, so how could it be in the shape to withhold evil when it couldn't withhold evil in its best day?


Examples:

2Thes.2
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


1Tim.4
[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;


2Tim.3
[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
[2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


So we can know for sure that it's not the church withholding antichrist. We do know that Antichrist will be revealed IN HIS TIME... TIMING is everything. His time to rise will be not 1 second before or after God's appointed time.


Antichrist will be a world-renowned person. He will later become a world ruler. There have been six "world-ruling" empires that have ruled over the nation of Israel in its history.


1. Egypt. 2. Assyria. 3. Babylon. 4. Medo-Persia. 5. Greece. 6. Rome, and 7. One yet to come, which Mystery Babylon will head up 'til very near the end.


If we can get a clearer understanding about how God caused these kings and kingdoms to rise and fall, we can better understand the mechanism that will bring the Antichrist into power.


The Prophet Daniel gives us the best insight into this mechanism in the tenth chapter of Daniel. Daniel fasted and prayed for twenty-one days, at the end of which an angel of the Lord came to him.


Daniel 10:
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that HOLDETH with me in these things, but Michael your prince.


Reading this entire passage, we see that MICHAEL and the angel Gabriel, were engaged in a heavenly WAR with demonic PRINCIPALITIES.


A Fascinating Truth About How Kingdoms Rise And Fall.

Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon learned this during his 7 years of punishment from the Lord, in Daniel 2:21, as he was changed into a beast. "And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:"


GOD installs kings and kingdoms and GOD removes kings and kingdoms.

The WAY that God installs and removes kings is by the holy angels. The angels do spiritual warfare in the heavens with the demonic princes (or principalities).


How did God remove Nebuchadnezzar from his throne? A "watcher" a "holy one came down from heaven" saying "hew him down" (Daniel 4:13, 23).


An angel of the Lord controlled the throne of Babylon.


Later the angel told Daniel that he and Michael (the archangel) were at war with the Prince of Persia.


As long as GOD allowed the Prince of Persia to prevail, the angel and Michael were unable to defeat him. But IN THE APPOINTED TIME, the angel and Michael defeated the Prince of Persia. At THAT time, the Persian empire fell.


The angel instructed Daniel that he ALREADY KNEW that the Prince of Grecia would be the next adversary, even before the fact.


Remember Alexander the Great. He was one of history's most prolific conquerors, and he did it all while in his twenties. In all likelihood he was demon possessed. Why? Because the Prince of Grecia (the angel giving rise to the Grecian Empire) empowered him to lead the Greeks to world domination.


Only when the angels of God came to defeat the demonic Prince of Grecia did Alexander's empire fall.


So you see, there is a corresponding "ground prince" to every demonic heavenly prince. When the demon prince is allowed to prevail, the ground prince prevails. When the demon prince is HELD (WITHHOLDEN), the ground prince is HELD, WITHHOLDEN – until his time to rise to power.


After the Prince of Grecia was defeated, history shows the rise of the Prince (Angel) of Rome. We know this by Daniel 9:26 "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." The Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, fulfilling this prophecy, and exposing the new Prince of Rome.


Here we have seen an angel controlling the throne of Babylon.
We have seen angels controlling the throne of Persia.
We have seen angels controlling the throne of Grecia (Greece).
We have seen angels controlling the throne of Rome.
And it will be ANGELS that WILL control the throne of ANTICHRIST. When HE, the angel, is taken out of the way, the Antichrist will be revealed. This is the meaning of Paul's teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2.



WHO WITHHOLDS ANTICHRIST?

It is the angels of God, including the angel Michael who stands for the nation of Israel.


Daniel 12:
1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:


So we can be fairly sure imho, that it is NOT the rapture of the Church, nor is it the removing of the Holy Ghost from the earth that prevents the revealing of the Antichrist before his appointed time. The Restrainer is a mighty angel that withholds the angel who gives antichrist his power to rise, and he withholds until Christ breaks the first seal.


Rev.6
[1] And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
[2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The conquorer cannot come until the seal is opened for him to do so. In this case it is not only a mighty angel witholding him, but Christ Himself.

[Lisa0315]

Bill,
Concerning the restrainer, lets consider the passage again from 2 Thes 2, and see where scripture would lead us in its words and consistancy in precedent.

2 Thessalonians 2
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Most of us who study end times prophecy and the coming rise of the antichrist, are familiar with this passage. To the new reader of scripture this can be a very confusing passage because of the old English used here.. The word here that was translated "letteth", and "let" actually mean to "hinder", as you alredy know. This being the case it should read "Only he who hinders will hinder until he be taken out of the way".


SOMETHING WITHHOLDS THE ANTICHRIST.

The withholder is referred to as a "he". What or who is this that withholds the rise of antichrist? Is it the Church? The Holy Spirit? The angels? Jesus? This is very important question, since many people have built a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine on the answer.


Some people think the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the earth. No scriptural passage at all ever tells us this. We are told that there will be those that are saved during the tribulation, so we know that the Holy Spirit will necessarily be present during the antichrist's rule.


Others think this is the Church being taken and therefore allowing Antichrist to rise. However, when "he" is taken out of the way, it won't be the Church. The Church is not a HE. It is a SHE – the Bride of Christ. Also the church HAS NEVER withheld evil, and all to often has endorsed such evil acts. One good example of this would be the clergy in Nazi Germany.


The scripture does not support the notion that either the Church or the Holy Ghost prevents the Antichrist from being revealed. To hold to such an idea is at best conjecture no matter who we hold the restrainer to be. What we are left with then, imho, is to simply look to the scriptures for the most likely precedents to come to as correct an understanding as possible.

There are also just too many passages telling us that in fact that the church will fall away from the truth before the coming of Christ, so how could it be in the shape to withhold evil when it couldn't withhold evil in its best day?


Examples:

2Thes.2
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


1Tim.4
[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;


2Tim.3
[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
[2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


So we can know for sure that it's not the church withholding antichrist. We do know that Antichrist will be revealed IN HIS TIME... TIMING is everything. His time to rise will be not 1 second before or after God's appointed time.


Antichrist will be a world-renowned person. He will later become a world ruler. There have been six "world-ruling" empires that have ruled over the nation of Israel in its history.


1. Egypt. 2. Assyria. 3. Babylon. 4. Medo-Persia. 5. Greece. 6. Rome, and 7. One yet to come, which Mystery Babylon will head up 'til very near the end.


If we can get a clearer understanding about how God caused these kings and kingdoms to rise and fall, we can better understand the mechanism that will bring the Antichrist into power.


The Prophet Daniel gives us the best insight into this mechanism in the tenth chapter of Daniel. Daniel fasted and prayed for twenty-one days, at the end of which an angel of the Lord came to him.


Daniel 10:
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that HOLDETH with me in these things, but Michael your prince.


Reading this entire passage, we see that MICHAEL and the angel Gabriel, were engaged in a heavenly WAR with demonic PRINCIPALITIES.


A Fascinating Truth About How Kingdoms Rise And Fall.

Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon learned this during his 7 years of punishment from the Lord, in Daniel 2:21, as he was changed into a beast. "And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:"


GOD installs kings and kingdoms and GOD removes kings and kingdoms.

The WAY that God installs and removes kings is by the holy angels. The angels do spiritual warfare in the heavens with the demonic princes (or principalities).


How did God remove Nebuchadnezzar from his throne? A "watcher" a "holy one came down from heaven" saying "hew him down" (Daniel 4:13, 23).


An angel of the Lord controlled the throne of Babylon.


Later the angel told Daniel that he and Michael (the archangel) were at war with the Prince of Persia.


As long as GOD allowed the Prince of Persia to prevail, the angel and Michael were unable to defeat him. But IN THE APPOINTED TIME, the angel and Michael defeated the Prince of Persia. At THAT time, the Persian empire fell.


The angel instructed Daniel that he ALREADY KNEW that the Prince of Grecia would be the next adversary, even before the fact.


Remember Alexander the Great. He was one of history's most prolific conquerors, and he did it all while in his twenties. In all likelihood he was demon possessed. Why? Because the Prince of Grecia (the angel giving rise to the Grecian Empire) empowered him to lead the Greeks to world domination.


Only when the angels of God came to defeat the demonic Prince of Grecia did Alexander's empire fall.


So you see, there is a corresponding "ground prince" to every demonic heavenly prince. When the demon prince is allowed to prevail, the ground prince prevails. When the demon prince is HELD (WITHHOLDEN), the ground prince is HELD, WITHHOLDEN – until his time to rise to power.


After the Prince of Grecia was defeated, history shows the rise of the Prince (Angel) of Rome. We know this by Daniel 9:26 "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." The Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, fulfilling this prophecy, and exposing the new Prince of Rome.


Here we have seen an angel controlling the throne of Babylon.
We have seen angels controlling the throne of Persia.
We have seen angels controlling the throne of Grecia (Greece).
We have seen angels controlling the throne of Rome.
And it will be ANGELS that WILL control the throne of ANTICHRIST. When HE, the angel, is taken out of the way, the Antichrist will be revealed. This is the meaning of Paul's teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2.



WHO WITHHOLDS ANTICHRIST?

It is the angels of God, including the angel Michael who stands for the nation of Israel.


Daniel 12:
1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:


So we can be fairly sure imho, that it is NOT the rapture of the Church, nor is it the removing of the Holy Ghost from the earth that prevents the revealing of the Antichrist before his appointed time. The Restrainer is a mighty angel that withholds the angel who gives antichrist his power to rise, and he withholds until Christ breaks the first seal.


Rev.6
[1] And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
[2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The conquorer cannot come until the seal is opened for him to do so. In this case it is not only a mighty angel witholding him, but Christ Himself.

I agree that HS will definitely be here during the Tribulation. I know this is a teaching of some churches. I have heard it myself and instantly denied it because just as you said. There will be believers during the tribulation and they will be inhabited by the Holy Spirit.

However, while all of what you have said is true, and the only thing that prevents antichrist is Christ Himself, I still do not see how this PROVES end-trib as opposed to pre-trib or mid-trib.

I am not as well studied on end times as you are, but I just don't get end-trib.

Lisa

[Time2BCounted]

I agree that HS will definitely be here during the Tribulation. I know this is a teaching of some churches. I have heard it myself and instantly denied it because just as you said. There will be believers during the tribulation and they will be inhabited by the Holy Spirit.

However, while all of what you have said is true, and the only thing that prevents antichrist is Christ Himself, I still do not see how this PROVES end-trib as opposed to pre-trib or mid-trib.

I am not as well studied on end times as you are, but I just don't get end-trib.

Lisa
Lisa,
Sister actually the little study on the restrainer really doesnt prove an end trib rapture at all. My only hope in this is to show 2 things concerning 2 thes chapter 2.

First of all as you point out, since people will be saved during the tribulation, the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the earth as some speculate.

Secondly, since we are told that "that day cannot come" until the falling away of the church and the revealing of the man of sin, the church seeing the abomination of desolation before the resurrection, this passage seems, imho, to place us squarely in the trib.

From what i can see, in this day and age rapture doctrine is slightly misrepresented in most cases. We have...

The pre trib rapture teaching

Mid trib rapture teaching

Post trib rapture teaching

I dont think the bible indicates any of these, and though some of my friends have labled me a 'postie', to me 'post' indicates completely after all the events of the trib have transpired, and i dont think this is quite right.

It seems to me that matthew 24 and daniel 11:40-12:2 and other places indicate that there will be a time of trouble such as never was, and just as the Lord is coming to take the kingdoms of the world, we see the resurrection, around the time of armageddon, and the living saints are changed, and the dead are caught up to meet Him in the air as He descends upon armageddon, destroying the armies of Jerusalem, to take the kingdoms of the world.

In 1 thes we are told we will 'meet' Him in the air, which to me is fascinating. The greek word used for 'meet' here has a unique connotation. It is rarely used in the NT, but where it is used, it is not in such a way that we leave somewhere to 'meet' someone and then continue our journey away form where we left. It is used in acts for instance, to show that when people from one city were expecting Paul to arrive, the church left the city oin order to meet paul on the road, on his journey there, and once meeting up with him outside the city, they accompanied him back to the city they had just left from, where he began to teach.

[Angel4Truth]

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html

"By far the biggest mistake post-tribulationists have made attacking the rapture is claiming that the pretribulation rapture wasn’t taught before 1830. In fact, John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist evangelist, offered $500 to anyone who could prove that someone taught the rapture doctrine prior to MacDonald's 1830 vision. Bray was first proven wrong when he wrote in a newsletter, "Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory." Bray stuck his neck out again when he made another $500 offer to anyone who could provide a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's 1812 writings. Apparently he had to cough up the 500 bucks. I quote him again: "I offered $500 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time.” No one claimed that offer until someone found writings that forced Bray to write the following: “Now I have the Photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788 but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pretribulation rapture before Lacunza." Lately, a number of other sources have been located that teach the pretribulation rapture--some written as early as the second century. Where does this leave Margaret MacDonald? "

"Ephraem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." " http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html