i often wonder if the tribulation may have already begun

[Time2BCounted]

Hi everyone

I didnt really want the focus here to be debatish, but rather a discussion between brothers and sisters concerning a very serious matter.

It seems that after the 'left behind' and pre trib rapture frenzie that took hold of the church for about 25-30 years, the topic has been desensitized in the hearts of many. This reminds me of the passage where it is prophesied that people would begin to say, "where is the promise of His coming? Since the beginning things have remained even to now (and 2000 years have passed).

To ask the question, "could it be that we are even now in the first part of the trib?"...i dont think to be a rediculous question... Daniel seems to hint that it begins with a treaty with many nations... exacty what that treaty is we dont know, but other clues indicate that it COULD be a treaty concerning israel.

We are told that israel would be divided and even jerusalem... within the last couple years this has happened, israel has given the palestinians their own state from Israeli soil, and now negotiations are ongoing concerning jerusalem.

What i find amazing is that IF the treaty in question begins the trib at the point of the creation of the palestinian state, then it has already begun... IF on the other hand it occurs at the dividing of jerusalem, then it is soon to begin.

My question is, if we are in the first portion of the trib, what will we do when our nation begins 'chipping' us in it efforts on the 'war against terror', and then, how long before this war on terror turns against the christian?

Most people dont realize the huge push for this going on right now... i would suggest looking into verichipcorp.com for more info, also i have written a few articles that touch on this subject.

Between mexico and the US there are several thousand peo[ple already chipped, many of them government workers and corporation personell.

The one thing that always made me think the pre trib rapture was a dangerous teaching was this... IF we see people being chipped en-masse in a war against terror, what will happen when die hard believers of the pre trib begin teaching their flock "dont worry... this cant be the mark of the beast! The church must be raptured before we see the mark of the beast so the chip is safe"?

I dont mind thoughts concerning this, but moreso i am hoping we can keep the slant in the direction of the possibilities we are already there.

God bless all

[MrJim]

I tend toward the amil side of things, but I can tell ya there ain't gonna be any chippin' with me and mine.

And I know a lot of plain mennonite and amish folks that won't fall for it either ;)

If they started chippin tomorrow there'd be an uproar, but it'll be a very slow process in the beginning, and we very well may be in the beginning stages now. When it's forced, then what? You get drugged, it's implanted, and you're done, does that send ya to hell? It's not out of the realm of possiblities....

[Time2BCounted]

Great thoughts Jim. I like your sentiment too that if the chipping starts it wont include you and yours... i am personally of the same sentiment.

The Verichip was first implanted in a family for identification and economic purposes in Florida, August 2002. Ther ehave been many headlines a bout government workers and corporation workers being required to receive them in the last 2 or 3 years. There are people who have websites dedicated to the fact that they ARE chipped. I find it amazing how little media attention this gets, you really have to dig to find it, but its there... and a bit sobering imho.

Heres the passage declaring that the last '7' begins with a treaty...

Daniel 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=34&chapter=9&verse=27&version=9&context=verse)
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

same passage from the niv

Daniel 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=34&chapter=9&verse=27&version=31&context=verse)
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

here is a passage concerning the coming of Christ and the dividing of jerusalem...

Zechariah 1:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=1&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.


im sadly in awe of many things in these days we live

[Lisa0315]

I think we are on the very, very edge of it. Not in the actual tribulation, but the stage is definitely being set. You can see the growing One World Order everywhere. The European Union, NAFTA, CAFTA, India, China on the Financial Front. Then, the growing wars and rumors of wars in the Middle East. The daily natural disasters. Don't even get me started on the apostasy!

All of these things were foretold. I am a pre-tribber and so for me, these days are somewhat exciting.

That said, even if I am right about the Pre-Trib, that does not mean that Christians, REAL Christians, will not end up in hiding again before the Rapture.

So, we need to prepare. We all say that, but the question is how do we prepare?

We purpose in our hearts that we will NOT be unfaithful. This means pondering things like what we would do if called to die for Jesus. Even worse, how do we respond if it is our child's life at stake. We MUST think about these things no matter how scary and how terrible they may seem to imagine. This is not vain imaginations, folks, but true preparation.

Will you die for Jesus? Will you allow your family to die in front of your eyes before you will deny His name? What do you do if you watch a loved one be threatened and you know that person is not saved? That is the one that scares me. I am afraid that I would trick myself into believing that it would be okay to deny Christ if it would give my unsaved loved one another chance.

What IS the answer to that one?

Lisa

[Time2BCounted]

Amen to all the sentiments there sis. The times are already perilous now, but they are going to be unimaginably perilous for every soul on earth soon.

Threats against our loved ones is my biggest fear too. Then too its very easy for me to sit here as the armchair quarterback saying i myself would take the imprisonment and torture and slow death to avoid the mark, but when it comes down to brass tacks, its hard to say given sophisticated torture/brainwashing tactics... i can only say i hope i would endure

[Lisa0315]

Amen to all the sentiments there sis. The times are already perilous now, but they are going to be unimaginably perilous for every soul on earth soon.

Threats against our loved ones is my biggest fear too. Then too its very easy for me to sit here as the armchair quarterback saying i myself would take the imprisonment and torture and slow death to avoid the mark, but when it comes down to brass tacks, its hard to say given sophisticated torture/brainwashing tactics... i can only say i hope i would endure

But what if that loved one was unsaved????

Lisa

[Time2BCounted]

yes... scary for sure

knowing the leverage that will be used against them... economicly especially. No way to pay a mortgage, or pay off land... even if they owned land outright, there would be no way for them to pay the yearly taxes on it. They would lose it ot take the mark to keep it. How many parnest would take the mark just to feed their hungry children? ...to keep them sheltered and clothed.

No one can work without it, there will be o grocery store or gasoline for those who dont take it.

The economic sway will be the strongest i believe... it make sence that this is the way antichrist "forces all" to take it.

To see our moms and dads and children and aunts and uncles and cousins being forced into it... and we know most of the world will be damned by it... many who say now they wouldnt, will end up taking it i fear

[Lisa0315]

yes... scary for sure

knowing the leverage that will be used against them... economicly especially. No way to pay a mortgage, or pay off land... even if they owned land outright, there would be no way for them to pay the yearly taxes on it. They would lose it ot take the mark to keep it. How many parnest would take the mark just to feed their hungry children? ...to keep them sheltered and clothed.

No one can work without it, there will be o grocery store or gasoline for those who dont take it.

The economic sway will be the strongest i believe... it make sence that this is the way antichrist "forces all" to take it.

To see our moms and dads and children and aunts and uncles and cousins being forced into it... and we know most of the world will be damned by it... many who say now they wouldnt, will end up taking it i fear

Well, again, I am a pre-tribber and I base this on...Hold on, I will come back and edit with the Scripture. I am sure you know it well. I would be interested in discussing it with you.

Lisa

[Lisa0315]

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[edb19]

To ask the question, "could it be that we are even now in the first part of the trib?"...i dont think to be a rediculous question...God bless all

Like MrJim, I'm amil in my leanings. I believe quite strongly (and I think correctly) that we have been in the end times since Christ's ascension and will be in those end times until His return.

That said - while I think it is very important that we be prepared for Christ's return, I have little to no patience with those who are looking for signs (in the news or whatever). We aren't going to know when Christ returns and we have more important things to focus on. We do need to be prepared to defend our faith in difficult times, but that has been true for 2000 years.

[Lisa0315]

Like MrJim, I'm amil in my leanings. I believe quite strongly (and I think correctly) that we have been in the end times since Christ's ascension and will be in those end times until His return.

That said - while I think it is very important that we be prepared for Christ's return, I have little to no patience with those who are looking for signs (in the news or whatever). We aren't going to know when Christ returns and we have more important things to focus on. We do need to be prepared to defend our faith in difficult times, but that has been true for 2000 years.

Well, the early Church had to defend against persecution and heresy. We are having to do the same, not QUITE to the degree of persecution, YET, but, it is definitely something we should be thinking about IMO.

I mean, like the little Columbine girl. It does happen. You know?

...And heresy...:eek: It is beyond heresy. It is utterly blasphemous what some "Christians" teach today.

Lisa

[edb19]

Well, the early Church had to defend against persecution and heresy. We are having to do the same, not QUITE to the degree of persecution, YET, but, it is definitely something we should be thinking about IMO.

I mean, like the little Columbine girl. It does happen. You know?

...And heresy...:eek: It is beyond heresy. It is utterly blasphemous what some "Christians" teach today.

Lisa

I agree with this totally - and hope I didn't give the impression otherwise.

That's why I say we need to be prepared to defend our faith. IMO better to ready to live our faith in the here and now than spend our time waiting for something that this generation might not see.

edie

[Lisa0315]

I agree with this totally - and hope I didn't give the impression otherwise.

That's why I say we need to be prepared to defend our faith. IMO better to ready to live our faith in the here and now than spend our time waiting for something that this generation might not see.

edie

Well, the wisest woman I know once said to me before I was a Christian, "Lisa, you need to stop worrying about Genesis and Revelation, and start worrying about daily living". I have never forgotten it.

Lisa

[Time2BCounted]

May not see, possibly, i agree.

On the other hand, IF the tribulation begins with the enforcing of a treaty which splits israel, and scripture testifies that the philistines will come to their end in Gaza at the time of armageddon, then serious consideration and comparison with scripture is in order imho.

It appears that the beginning may not occur until something is officially done with Jerusalem, but i see the possibility that it begins with the simple split off of land to create the palestinian state, which has already happened.

It is prophesied that in the latter days people would be asking, 'where is the promise of His coming?' I think it is when this becomes prevellant it would be a good time to see exactly where we are.

I believe it is wiser to look, being watchmen, and note the movement in the shrubs even if its a rabbit, so as not to be caught off guard when it is the enemy.

So i dont mean to sound alarmist, but i do try to provoke thought to a pretty serious question imho.

[Time2BCounted]

yeah that too lol

[edb19]

Well, the wisest woman I know once said to me before I was a Christian, "Lisa, you need to stop worrying about Genesis and Revelation, and start worrying about daily living". I have never forgotten it.

Lisa

I might just be borrowing that quote - darn good reminder:thumbsup:

[Lisa0315]

I might just be borrowing that quote - darn good reminder:thumbsup:

It was my grandmother. She is consumed with Alzheimers now. :(

Edit: On the bright side...she still occasionally knows some things. We had to take her to the emergency room because she fell and broke her ankle. She began questioning the doctor about what he was going to do "tomorrow". The doctor was like, "Well, I usually spend the day with my family, and then, in the afternoon, I go to the golf course". My grandma shook her finger in his face, and said, "Yeah, but where SHOULD you be tomorrow". Now, understand most of the time she thinks she is five years old and she constantly talks about Momma and Poppa coming to get her. However, for one moment, she knew what day it was, Saturday, and she was "witnessing" to that MD indicating that he should be in church "tomorrow".

Lisa

[JacktheCatholic]

Well, the wisest woman I know once said to me before I was a Christian, "Lisa, you need to stop worrying about Genesis and Revelation, and start worrying about daily living". I have never forgotten it.

Lisa


Even Jesus said something similiar...

Something about not worrying about tomorrw because there is enough to worry about today.

I could look it up but frankly... I am tired and about to kicked the kids out of our bed. The kids are 6 and 8 and go to bed with mom because I like to stay up late. Anyhow... I am babbling now. :blush:

[Time2BCounted]

Excellent Jack, here it is brother lol

Matthew 6:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&verse=34&version=9&context=verse)
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof

[JacktheCatholic]

"could it be that we are even now in the first part of the trib?"...i dont think to be a rediculous question...

To be Catholic means to have much already laid out for you. I can read the catechism which puts things like this in a easy to read format for every Catholic Church in the world to know the Church's teaching.

For Catholics we are taught that we are in the Great Tribulation and have been for centuries...

But as to a 1st tribulation???

I was thinking of the Gospel of Matthew chapter 24. It speaks of the Temple being ruined and the Christians fleeing to the mountains. Interestingly enough in 70 AD which is "before this generation passes away" (generation in Greek is 40 years) the Temple was desicrated with a statue of an eagle. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed trying to defend the Temple which was destroyed by the Romans. And all the Chrisitans had fled ahead of time to Mount Pella.

To me that could be the 1st tribulation which already happened and which Jesus foretold. But I believe there is another side to that... The side when this world ends and Jesus comes to judge us all.

[JacktheCatholic]

Excellent Jack, here it is brother lol

Matthew 6:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&verse=34&version=9&context=verse)
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof


Thanks!

[Time2BCounted]

Welcome mon