Jewish Believers and the Trinitarian View

[AnthonyForChrist]

I have always been perturbed by the equivocal concept of the Trinity, which generally states that Moshiach ben Yosef is the equal to the Father. However, Yeshua even Himself states that "the Father is greater than I." But when he says that "I and the Father are one," it seems to denote a unity in purpose. Not to mention, trinity concepts are popular among pagan religions such as Hinduism (Brahm, Visnu, and Siva). While of course I agree with Paul in Corinthians, "All the fullness of Deity dwells in Him," I don't think that Yeshua is the equal to YHVH, but is a part of Elohim, a plural word.
I figure Moshiach and the Ruach HaKodesh are smaller circles in a larger one, which encompasses (as the very name Elohim implies), and that is called Yehovah? So, this representation could symbolize YHVH's being greater and that Moshiach ben Yosef and Himself are "one"? Again, the Trinity bothers me. It seems kind of Babylonish. Were the other, pagan trinities a perversion of the true Trinity, or is the Trinity a distortion of the truth?

I'd like to know the "Jewish" view on this subject? I always believed that once the Jews began coming to the Messiah in greater numbers (such as what is happening today, which is another sign that the unification of the two people's of God in the fufillment of times is at hand) they could correct the Gentiles in their misconceptions.

[sojeru]

personally,
I hold that Messiah is HASHEM(YHVH)
However, He is the portion of HaAV(the Father) that does not recieve in the sense- divine worship but recieves worship due to him as King for HaShem himself is King.
There is certain reason why I believe Messiah Himself is HaShem yet recieves and directs certain things.
Messiah Being teacher and The direction and The Father being the Parent- all three attributes being of Torah and Orthodox Judaism Teaches that Messiah and Torah are the same person and that Torah created the universe and everything that exists.
Or rather that HaShem by His WILL (TORAH/MESSIAH) created everything.
Yet, the attribute of Torah is HaAV-the father and more specifically HoReH(parent).
Messiah, the TOrah is THE DIRECTION(HORA'AH), TEACHER(MOREH) and HOREH(PARENT)
All these words make up TORAH and Messiah is the FULLNESS of the diety

[simchat_torah]

Y'shua is the right arm of HaShem. Though they are of the same essence and being, I disagree with the typical christian view that they are co-equal.

This is only a scratch into the infinite and unsearchable depths of his being.

shalom,
yafet.

[AnthonyForChrist]

Y'shua is the right arm of HaShem. Though they are of the same essence and being, I disagree with the typical christian view that they are co-equal.

This is only a scratch into the infinite and unsearchable depths of his being.

shalom,
yafet.
Amein!

[sojeru]

hi simchat,
I dont know if you are not directing that toward me, or the original question- however, at the same time I am in agreement- I actually believe that the ressurected Messiah is the HaShem before the fall of hasatan.

[simchat_torah]

no, just directing it towards the original statement.
;)

[Sabian]

[QUOTE=sojeru]personally,
I hold that Messiah is HASHEM(YHVH)
((((However, He is the portion of HaAV(the Father) that does not recieve in the sense- divine worship but recieves worship due to him as King for HaShem himself is King.))))



ME
That is a good way of puting it Sojeru I have diffrent veiws of YAHSHUA then you But I agree that there is a diffrence in worship of the FATHER and the SON.

Worship Due HIM because HE is Worthy. But YAHSHUA gives all to the FATHER.

[Sabian]

Explain what your view of the essence of the Father is?

I would not have used essence I would have used WILL.
They are of the same WILL the WILL of the FATHER.

Is this what you Mean?

[simchat_torah]

me or sojeru?

[LadyC]

Y'shua is the right arm of HaShem. Though they are of the same essence and being, I disagree with the typical christian view that they are co-equal.

This is only a scratch into the infinite and unsearchable depths of his being.

shalom,
yafet.
if i can be so bold as to drop in on the conversation, i would like to give my perspective of the christian view of co-equality.

i see myself as what i would like to believe is a typical christian... although more often than not it seems that the typical, or at least stereotypical christian waters down the word of god to the point of almost not being recognized.

i think the trinity is probably most often thought of as co-equal by those who are new to their faith and have not had it properly explained nor have they yet studied the scriptures, or by those who are too lazy in their faith to actually study the subject, following some dogmatic theology rather than seeking understanding of scripture through both prayer and study.

i have always been taught that there is a heirarchy, so to speak, in the trinity. they are not co-equals according to any of the christians i've ever discussed this subject with. the father is the final authority. the son is in submission to the father. the holy spirit carries out the father's will as spoken by the son.

[sojeru]

Hi Sabian,
It is strange- the way i view it.
HaShem is a mother, we can see this in Sepher Yirmiyah.
Yet it is haRuach that is the actual female gender applied to EL- yet HASHEM is a mother.
The way HaShem does things in to SHOW HIS ATTRIBUTES, never DEFINE.
So HaShem is NOT the SON
HASHEM is NOT THE FATHER
HaSHEM IS NOT THE SPIRIT
yet those are his attributes

[SonWorshipper]

I have always been perturbed by the equivocal concept of the Trinity, which generally states that Moshiach ben Yosef is the equal to the Father. However, Yeshua even Himself states that "the Father is greater than I."

An "un-Jewish" version if you will ( though that is getting more uncertain)

You said that Yeshua stated that the Father was greater than He, but you must take into consideration WHEN He said this. It was before He gave up his life, poured out His blood for the remission of our sins, to make that final sacrifices for our transgressions. BUT! That was then and this is now and I believe to fully know who He is now is to take a serious look at Revelation. Look past the prophecies and to who He is proclaiming, ( loud and clear I feel ) who He is NOW.

Have you read my thread on "Is Yeshau YHVH?" (http://christianforums.com/t48042 ) It explains a little more what I believe, and that is that Y'shua is also the Father.

[SonWorshipper]

Same Essence? I was just looking up something tin Jeremiah and came across this, I thought it pertinant to this discussion, especially since we are in the season of our joy, Sukkot!

Check it out.



Jeremiah 2:13 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JER+2:13&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Jeremiah 17:13 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JER+17:13&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.


John 4:10 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+4:10&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.


John 7
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+7:38&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)

Was the Water Libation Ceremony for rain only?:)

[Henaynei]

THE HUMANITY, DIVINITY, AND WONDERFUL SACRIFICE OF YESHUA THE MESSIAH, FROM A COMPLETELY NON-TRINITARIAN PERSPECTIVE:

1) The depiction of “Jesus” and “G-d” sitting on separate Thrones in heaven, two individual entities having conversations yet considered part of the very same G-dhead is wholly derived from paganized Roman Catholicism and is poly-theistic, not monotheistic! It is not a concept that any Jew in Yeshua’s day would have recognized or accepted as Scriptural, nor is it a concept that any observant Jew today would recognize or accept as Scriptural. In fact, to worship Yeshua as a Person existentially distinct from the Father, yet still part of the One G-d, is not a “mystery”—it’s blasphemy! It’s placing “another god” before HaShem in violation of the Second Commandment of the Decalogue (the first in Christian Bibles). The result of this separating of HaShem into a Trinity of divine Individuals gave rise to the panoply of “demigods”, including Mary and the Saints, whom, it is taught, can be petitioned with prayer. Unless we know Who it is we worship, and correctly identify Him as the One True G-d of Israel, we are in gross deception. There is One G-d: no distinction, no separation, no hierarchy, no exception.

2) HaShem is One existential Entity, One Being with a single, individual Con-ciouness—“I am that I am”, not “We are that We are”. The fact that, in one verse of Genesis, he uses the royal “we” (“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness;” B’resheit/Genesis 1:26) cannot stand against the massive internal evidence, the thousands of verses in which he uses the individual pronoun “I”. G-d is not a divine committee “considered” to be One G-d. He, the Awesome One, Reigns alone!

3) It is important to understand that while we, believers in Yeshua, are indwelt by the Ruach haKodesh (the Holy Spirit, part of G-d’s Divine Essence)—we do not possess G-d within us in the same way, or to the same degree, as did Yeshua. Yeshua was unique among men, the “only begotten of the Father”, a being who was truly man and truly G-d simultaneously. Neither you nor I are that sort of Being. When A’dam/Adam was created, G-d “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.” He communed with G-d uniquely, yet was distinct from G-d. He was not G-d incarnate. Before his fall, A’dam’s/Adam’s spirit was in perfect communion with the Ruach. His soul received direction from this uncorrupted spirit, and his spirit-directed soul ruled his body. He was a spirit-directed, G-d directed man. Yeshua is referred to as the “second A’dam” in the sense that, as A’dam the man brought death to all through disobedience, Yeshua the man brought life to all through His obedience. (The choice must have existed for Him to disobey, or that obedience would be meaningless.) But Yeshua and A’dam were essentially different in that A’dam was created by G-d, while Yeshua was “begotten” of G-d. In order to keep that distinction before us, we will use the term Shekhinah—the glorious presence of G-d which dwelt in the Tabernacle—in reference to that which indwelled Yeshua, as opposed to the Ruach haKodesh, which indwells us. Not to say that they are different in essence, but in order to distinguish the degree of uniqueness in which Yeshua possessed the glory. “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth” (Yochanan/John 1:14).

4) G-d is not corporeal. He has no limiting physiology, but exists everywhere and anywhere. He can occupy two or more places at the same time. He can occupy the body of a human being on Earth while still existing and ruling in the heavenlies.

5) Yeshua the Messiah was titled Emmanu-El: “G-d with us” (Mattityahu/Matthew. 1:23). The Hebrew word yeshua means salvation. He was not called YAH-shua—as many of the “Two House” or “Messianic Israel” movement wrongly assert—which means “G-d will save”; nor was he called Yehoshua (Joshua), which also means “G-d will save”. He was named YESHUA—salvation. The former two names imply that the bearer of the name trusts in G-d to save. The latter uniquely asserts that the bearer of the name is the salvation. Yeshua was G-d, the salvation of Israel! He was a human soul in a human body (fully man) whose Spirit was the Shekhinah—the glorious presence of HaShem (fully Divine). No other human being, including A’dam—no matter how greatly indwelt by the Ruach haKodesh—was or is or can be such an individual as the Ben ha’M’vorakh (the Son of the Blessed One)!

6) It is written that people would line up in the streets so that the mere shadow of Shimon Kefa (Simon Peter), falling on them, might heal them (Gevurot/Acts 5:15). Yeshua promised his talmidim (disciples) that when the Ruach fell upon them they would do greater works than He had done (Yochanan 14:12). But neither Kefa nor any of the other Apostles—no matter how filled they were with the Ruach, no matter how great the works they did—were such men as Yeshua. All their great works were done in Yeshua’s name, the Name “above every name that is named” (Efemim/Ephesians 1:21). Yeshua was more than a man filled with the Ruach. He was G-d Himself, walking the earth in human flesh. The scripture—and many Hebrew prayers—refer to Messiah as the Arm of the L-rd (Y’sha’yahu/Isaiah 53:1) or the Right Arm of G-d. Just as a piano player uses all of his limbs simultaneously, each hand moving “separately” to create intricate counter-melodies that harmonize in beautiful music, so was the Right Arm of G-d, Yeshua—the “Hand of G-d” walking upon the Earth. G-d can be two places at once, doing different things, without diminishing his Essence, without losing His ability to keep the universe in motion.

proceed to Part 2

[Henaynei]

THE HUMANITY, DIVINITY, AND WONDERFUL SACRIFICE OF YESHUA THE MESSIAH, FROM A COMPLETELY NON-TRINITARIAN PERSPECTIVE: (Part 2)

7) When the Scripture says that Yeshua had to “learn obedience” (Ivrim/Hebrews 5:8) through the things that He suffered, it means that the human side of the G-d-Man had to strengthen his will to come into full compliance with the Will of the Shekhinah. This is seen in the turmoil he encountered in Gat Sh’manim/Gethsemene when the humanity of Messiah cried out, “If possible let this cup pass from me, but not my will but yours be done.” The reaction of Yeshua’s humanity to the impending agony of crucifixion was briefly expressed, followed immediately by a compliant soul that had learned obedience. As A’dam was a spirit-directed man whose Ruach-led human spirit dominated his flesh; Yeshua was a Shekhinah-directed man, whose Spirit was the very Essence of HaShem, and whose flesh was thus directed. We are not seeing two “Persons” struggling in Gat Shmanim; we’re seeing how the humanity of Yeshua came into compliance with His Divinity—“learning obedience” through the things He suffered. For if Yeshua was not fully human, fully capable of choosing not to comply with that Divinity housed in his human flesh, his obedience would have meant nothing; his ability to be “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin” (Ivrim/Hebrews 4:15) would have no virtue. The Divinity within Him was incapable of sin, yes, but his human flesh was buffeted as is our own. He sweat “great drops of blood” (Lukas/Luke 22:44). “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous” (Romanim/Romans 5:19). If G-d had made it impossible for A’dam to obey, A’dam’s disobedience would not have brought punishment. Conversely, if disobedience were impossible for Yeshua, His obedience would be worthless in breaking the A’damic curse.

8) Contrary to the confounding argument put forth by Jewish anti-missionary groups, G-d did not die on the cross! Yes, Yeshua and HaShem were one and the same being—but only Yeshua’s flesh died on the cross. The human soul is eternal, remember? Neither Yeshua’s soul (which was His humanity), nor His Spirit (which was His Divinity) perished when his body ceased to function. They are both immutable.

9) What we see occurring at His crucifixion points up the truth of our assertion quite clearly: The Shekhinah—the glorious presence of G-d—cannot dwell in the presence of sin. When the sins of mankind were poured out upon the body nailed to the cross, the Shekhinah instantly departed. Here Yeshua—the man, alone, separated from the Shekhinah for the first time in his life—was left naked upon the execution stake to bear the sins of all humanity. “‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani, that is to say, ‘My G-d, My G-d, why have you forsaken me?’” The human, bereft and broken, crying out to the Divinity which had departed Him.

10) Yeshua promised the thief on the cross, “This day you shall be with me in paradise.” He did not say “Heaven”, the abode of G-d, because the souls of the righteous dead did not go to heaven at that time. According to Lukas/Luke 16:22-26, the souls of the dead went down into the heart of the earth where two compartments, separated by a great rift, held the souls of the righteous and the unrighteous. (The righteous believed in the atoning blood of animals, which merely pointed to the Blood of Messiah. The full meaning of the sacrifice had to be shown to them, so that they might place their faith in the blood of Messiah.) The souls of the unrighteous are in torment, awaiting the final judgement and the lake of fire. The righteous enjoy a paradise known as “Abraham’s bosom”. Both the righteous and unrighteous can see each other across the void, but cannot pass from one compartment to the other.

11) Yeshua—the one who ascended—first descended (Efemim/Ephesians 4: 9-10). That is, His human soul descended into the depths of the earth, to the part occupied by the righteous dead. There he wrested the keys of death and Hades from the Adversary—haSatan—and preached the death-shattering Truth to those spirits held captive there (Kefa Alef/I Peter 4:6) Thus, he “led captivity captive” (Efemim/Ephesians 4: 8-9). The righteous souls in Paradise, accepting the blood of Yeshua, the only acceptable sacrifice for sin, rose from the compartment in which they’d been awaiting their full redemption. The took up their bodies on the way, and thus we read that “the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many” (Mattityahu/Matthew 27:52-53).

12) Yeshua’s soul, triumphant over death, “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep” (Koren’tim Alef/I Corinthians 15:20) rose before them. The stone was rolled away and He took up His body from the tomb where it had been buried. He had still not been reunited with the Shekhinah that had abandoned Him on the cross, but was still a human soul, encased in a resurrected human body, risen from the grave—much as Lazarus had been. In this state, He encountered Mary, to whom He said, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my G-d, and your G-d.” (The resurrected but wholly human Yeshua referred to HaShem as “my Father” and “My G-d”.) He ascended into G-d’s abode, laid His Blood upon the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven (Hitgalut/Revelation 11:19), and was reunited with the Shekhinah. He had not yet taken His glorious, resurrected form. When He appeared to His disciples in Lukas/Luke chapter 24, He was the Yeshua they remembered—a human body (“for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have; Lukas/Luke 24:38)” indwelt by the Shekhinah, “the image of the invisible G-d” (Kolosim/Colossians 1:15). They saw the nail-prints in His hands. Now He could say to them “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” (Yochanan/John 14:9). He was HaShem in human form! “After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of Ya’akov/James; then of all the apostles” (Koren’tim Alef/I Corinthians 15: 6-7). He was last seen by the talmidim on the road to Emmaus. When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising G-d. (Lukas/Luke 24:50-53)

13) Yeshua, having ascended once again, took on His glorified form—not the fleshly body His talmidim saw and handled “All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body” (Koren’tim Alef/I Corinthians 15: 39-44). This is the form in which Stephanos/Stephen saw Him, seated at the Right Hand of HaG’vorah (The Power). It is the form in which He appeared to Rabban Sha’ul (Paul) on the Damascus Road. It is the form in which He appeared to Yochanan/John in his revelatory vision: “And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, ‘Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death’” (Hitgalut/Revelations 1:12-18). HaShem is, of course, not limited to this form, but can take it up as He wills, occupying two or more places at the same time. Just as He could rule the universe from His heavenly Throne while occupying the fleshly body of Yeshua, so He can rule from his Throne while taking, when He chooses to, this awesome form. This is the form in which HaShem shall return to earth in Judgment: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of G-d. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty G-d. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND L-RD OF L-RDS” (Hitgalut/Revelations`` 19:11-16). The King of Kings and L-rd of L-rds is HaShem and none other! HaShem Himself will be returning to earth in this awesome form, and it is HaShem who will rule from Jerusalem: “And the L-RD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one L-RD, and his name one.” (Z’khar’yah/Zechariah 14:9). One L-rd, not three! Moshiach and Hashem are One and the same Person! To believe otherwise is to worship a pagan image of Divinity!

[Amandine]

Wow, that's great insight Heynaynei. I'm really starting to scrutinize the trinity concept more... maybe I will be that Messianic Gentile I so dreamt of.. :D

-Catherine

[Henaynei]

My husband and I were discussing this last Shabbat in the haftorah portion. We decided to write it down and this is what he came up with.

We are blessed your find it some help :)

[SonWorshipper]

Yes, the L-rd has truly given you a wonderful insight to who He fully is. He has been speaking to me about this since last Pesache when He showed me an obscure hint to who He truly is ( See my thread on Is Yeshua YHVH? ) in the book of Revelation. many don't look at this book as something that was given directly to John from the Risen and glorified L-rd but they focus more on the prophecies in it, but He gives many, many discriptions so that we can know , without a doubt who He fully is!!! :bow: Praise Him forever and ever!

I thank you for sharing this Henaynei, I have been wonderfully blessed by the Ruach while reading this. My eyes are still wet with tears and the "tingle" lingers on, Praise HaShem!!! :clap: And Toda Rabah to you as well! :hug:

whow!!! thank you L-rd!

[LibertyChic]

1) The depiction of “Jesus” and “G-d” sitting on separate Thrones in heaven, two individual entities having conversations yet considered part of the very same G-dhead is wholly derived from paganized Roman Catholicism and is poly-theistic, not monotheistic! It is not a concept that any Jew in Yeshua’s day would have recognized or accepted as Scriptural, nor is it a concept that any observant Jew today would recognize or accept as Scriptural. In fact, to worship Yeshua as a Person existentially distinct from the Father, yet still part of the One G-d, is not a “mystery”—it’s blasphemy! It’s placing “another god” before HaShem in violation of the Second Commandment of the Decalogue (the first in Christian Bibles). The result of this separating of HaShem into a Trinity of divine Individuals gave rise to the panoply of “demigods”, including Mary and the Saints, whom, it is taught, can be petitioned with prayer. Unless we know Who it is we worship, and correctly identify Him as the One True G-d of Israel, we are in gross deception. There is One G-d: no distinction, no separation, no hierarchy, no exception.

Henaynei, you know my search and my heart (I believe), and was actually directed to this thread by you. Quick question: If the above is true, and having Jesus and G-d on seperate thrones is blasphemy, may I gently direct your attention to the NT where it shows, on several occasions, that Jesus does sit at the right hand of G-d and that he is worshiped?

Rev 5:8 "And there between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders of the heavenly Sanhedrin I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain...<snip to vs 8>...And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders prostrated themselves before the Lamb."

If you read this in its entirety, I have taken nothing out of context (at least, not intentionally)

Also, 1 Peter 3:22 "And He has now entered into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with all angels and authorities and powers made subservient to Him."

These are just two examples.

Thank you and Shalom :)

[maranatha2216]

[B]Notice in Revelations that it mentions "false Jews"..I personally feel this has something to do with Shema..God is one, not 3. Messiah said to the woman at the well, you know not what you worship, we (Jews) know what we worship, and there will come a time when the true worshippers will worship the FATHER in spirit and in truth. I see many who are Messianic, yet they adhear to christianity's doctrines of trinity, virgin birth ect. could they be "false" Jews? I tend to think so. A study of church history and christianity will show that all of its doctrines are of pagan origin. May I suggest a very informative book called: The doctrine of the Trinity, Christianity's self inflicted wound.

[Amandine]

So what's wrong with Miriam being a virgin? It seems like a logical conclusion to me..
-Catherine

[Henaynei]

If the above is true, and having Jesus and G-d on seperate thrones is blasphemy, may I gently direct your attention to the NT where it shows, on several occasions, that Jesus does sit at the right hand of G-d and that he is worshiped?Dear LC,

You will find throughout rabbinic literature (siddurs, Midrash, even Talmud I believe) that the Right Hand/Arm of G-d is constantly referred to as the source of salvation and deliverance, and throughout the T’NaKh (OT) you will find the same - it is in no way unique to the K'tuvim Natzrim (NT). The "Right Arm" is a warrior term and to the warrior the Right Arm is the arm of power, the arm of action. G-d's Mighty Right Arm!! When I worship G-d I worship all that is He, including His Mercy and His Power. :D When the Spirit of G-d resides in the physical body of Yeshua - you will see what appears to be the worship of the physical but remember, when He rose and was only body and soul He refused worship from Miriam, "Yeshua saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my G-d, and your G-d. Dear one, G-d does not "have a G-d." No? The Shekinah had departed at the execution, Yeshua would be reunited with the Shekinah in Heaven when He presented His sinless offering before the Mercy Seat in Heaven. Barukh HaShem!!


In the occasions that the translations seem to suggest that a separate individual sits next to "theFather" it can usually be shown, in either the original language or in idiom, that such physical distinction is a misunderstanding/mistranslation.

One thing to remember is that nothing in the K'tuvim Natzrim can contradict ANYTHING in the T’NaKh. G-d is one - not parts - that is a totally pagan view that crept into "orthodox" theology when Judaism was pushed out. G-d is not separate "persons" but He can be and is in many places - needing Him to be in distinct parts to be simultaneously in Heaven, in the body of Yeshua and in a representation above Yeshua at the mikveh (baptism) in the Yarden (Jordan) is the product of our literal, finite and linear thinking. Just as finite beings we cannot easily contemplate nor truly comprehend the infinite, neither as 3 dimensional beings can we easily contemplate nor truly comprehend the possibilities of what being outside the 3 dimensional universe means.

G-d caused a biological being to be born - a male without introduction of the y-chromosome and therefore without the inherited sin of Adam - the only human to be sinless from birth, with a fully human body and human soul - but without a human spirit - the spirit was fully G-d, for G-d IS a spirit. A perfect sinless physical man died and was resurrected, but in no way did G-d die.

To be sure - this in no way says that Yeshua is not divine - Yeshua is totally and completely G-d. :) That, too, is clearly explained in our post.

OIY - Hope this does not muddy the waters any more :sorry:

Shalom,
Henaynei

[LibertyChic]

OIY - Hope this does not muddy the waters any more :sorry:


LOL...not in the least. This is exactly what I was taught in my church experiences.

In the occasions that the translations seem to suggest that a separate individual sits next to "theFather" it can usually be shown, in either the original language or in idiom, that such physical distinction is a misunderstanding/mistranslation.

Which brings me to another question (and I hope it's ok to post this w/o going off topic): It's my understanding that the NT is (mis)translated from a mistranslation of Greek. Where can one find an original translation, from the original texts into English?

[Henaynei]

Which brings me to another question (and I hope it's ok to post this w/o going off topic): It's my understanding that the NT is (mis)translated from a mistranslation of Greek. Where can one find an original translation, from the original texts into English?
It is my understanding that there are only a very few - if any - extant copies of the originals. And since English is a VERY young language, comparitively, there just aren't ANY "original translations from the original texts into english."

Really brainy and serious biblical scholars learn both greek and hebrew and have at it from there. The rest of us lean on them or one or two decent concordances or try to learn one of those languages - LOL ;)

You see, none of the K'tuvim Natztim scriptures were even thought of as "scripture" until a long, long time after they were written, so on most cases one has to rely on the oldest extant "copy" of the original that appears to have the least added or ammended. Unlike the Torah which has been meticulously hand copied - exact letter, jot and tittle, letter and line spacing - from the first writing when Moshe received it from HaShem to today by the scribes who essentially spend their entire lives, from early youth to trembling old age, doing only that.

Blessed is He who has preserved His word and given it to us for righteousness and understanding.

[LibertyChic]

It is my understanding that there are only a very few - if any - extant copies of the originals. And since English is a VERY young language, comparitively, there just aren't ANY "original translations from the original texts into english."

Really brainy and serious biblical scholars learn both greek and hebrew and have at it from there. The rest of us lean on them or one or two decent concordances or try to learn one of those languages - LOL ;)

That's what I was afraid of....LOL

You see, none of the K'tuvim Natztim scriptures were even thought of as "scripture" until a long, long time after they were written, so on most cases one has to rely on the oldest extant "copy" of the original that appears to have the least added or ammended. Unlike the Torah which has been meticulously hand copied - exact letter, jot and tittle, letter and line spacing - from the first writing when Moshe received it from HaShem to today by the scribes who essentially spend their entire lives, from early youth to trembling old age, doing only that.

Which just solidifies the traditional Jewish view, in my mind. Bleh.... :sigh:

Blessed is He who has preserved His word and given it to us for righteousness and understanding.

Amen to that! :D

[Henaynei]

Unlike the Torah which has been meticulously hand copied - exact letter, jot and tittle, letter and line spacing - from the first writing when Moshe received it from HaShem to today by the scribes who essentially spend their entire lives, from early youth to trembling old age, doing only that.
Which just solidifies the traditional Jewish view, in my mind. Bleh.... :sigh:

I am not sure to what you are referring here???:confused:

[maranatha2216]

[B]this is interesting, yesterday I had one blessing, and today I have 0..ok, who stole my blessing?

[Henaynei]

this is interesting, yesterday I had one blessing, and today I have 0..ok, who stole my blessing?
What are blessings? (http://www.christianforums.com/faq....n#faq_blessings) good instructional/informative reading!!!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_1.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[maranatha2216]

:bow: :notme: hehe ;)

[Lotuspetal_uk]

*punches the air after reading this thread*

Praise G-d! At last, it's finally sunk in! You know, I could never find the words to explain the problem I had with the trinity - I couldn't even defend the concept to my husband. You have confirmed what has always been locked away in my heart (wow! Now I'm beginning to well up).

Thank you Henaynei! May the L-rd continue to use you and bless you :hug:

[LibertyChic]

I am not sure to what you are referring here???:confused:

Actually, I was referring to this portion of your earlier comment:

You see, none of the K'tuvim Natztim scriptures were even thought of as "scripture" until a long, long time after they were written,


Hasn't the Torah always been considered "scripture," even in it's infancy?

[Henaynei]

Hasn't the Torah always been considered "scripture," even in it's infancy?
The Torah, yes, the Ketuvim Natzrim (aka by the misnomer New Testament), no......

I don't see the Torah having an "infancy" - if you mean the Torah, Prophets and Writings that make up the T'NaKah (aka by the misnomer Old Testament) then yes ......

[LibertyChic]

The Torah, yes, the Ketuvim Natzrim (aka by the misnomer New Testament), no......

I don't see the Torah having an "infancy" - if you mean the Torah, Prophets and Writings that make up the T'NaKah (aka by the misnomer Old Testament) then yes ......

Sorry.....lol....."my bad" ;)

I suppose, if one wanted to get technical, when Moses walked down off the mountain, the Torah was new to the Isrealites, thereby "in it's infancy." However, I don't want to get that technical.....lol

The Tanach is what I meant, of course. I'm trying to do way too much at the same time! :P

[theseed]

Wow Henaynei, that's alot to look at. Thanks for taking the time to type all this up.

[theseed]

So what's wrong with Miriam being a virgin? It seems like a logical conclusion to me..
-Catherine
Especially since it is written:

MT 1:23 (King James Version) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (

[theseed]

I have always been perturbed by the equivocal concept of the Trinity, which generally states that Moshiach ben Yosef is the equal to the Father. However, Yeshua even Himself states that "the Father is greater than I." But when he says that "I and the Father are one," it seems to denote a unity in purpose. Not to mention, trinity concepts are popular among pagan religions such as Hinduism (Brahm, Visnu, and Siva). While of course I agree with Paul in Corinthians, "All the fullness of Deity dwells in Him," I don't think that Yeshua is the equal to YHVH, but is a part of Elohim, a plural word.
I figure Moshiach and the Ruach HaKodesh are smaller circles in a larger one, which encompasses (as the very name Elohim implies), and that is called Yehovah? So, this representation could symbolize YHVH's being greater and that Moshiach ben Yosef and Himself are "one"? Again, the Trinity bothers me. It seems kind of Babylonish. Were the other, pagan trinities a perversion of the true Trinity, or is the Trinity a distortion of the truth?

I'd like to know the "Jewish" view on this subject? I always believed that once the Jews began coming to the Messiah in greater numbers (such as what is happening today, which is another sign that the unification of the two people's of God in the fufillment of times is at hand) they could correct the Gentiles in their misconceptions.
Here is what Baptist believe about the Trinity, and it cites old testament and New Testament verses. I leave you to make your own decision.

http://www.utm.edu/martinarea/fbc/bfm/2.html

[Henaynei]

Here is what Baptist believe about the Trinity, and it cites old testament and New Testament verses. I leave you to make your own decision.

http://www.utm.edu/martinarea/fbc/bfm/2.html
Dear Seed, most of us came that way years ago, and through that path came to our present conclusions....

[theseed]

Dear Seed, most of us came that way years ago, and through that path came to our present conclusions....
I figured as much. For me, seing God as one with three personalities is like seeing H20 as water, steam and ice. But, more sophisticated, vastly more. I notice that many consider it to be a Pagan belief, but I derive my own conclusions from The Bible, not from traditions.

Alsot think about this, in Acts 17, Paul uses Pagan beliefs and poetry to tell them about Christ.

[Henaynei]

I figured as much. For me, seing God as one with three personalities is like seeing H20 as water, steam and ice. But, more sophisticated, vastly more. I notice that many consider it to be a Pagan belief, but I derive my own conclusions from The Bible, not from traditions.

Alsot think about this, in Acts 17, Paul uses Pagan beliefs and poetry to tell them about Christ.I, too, derive my conclusions from scripture, as do most if not all, here.

I am glad you find rest in your faith and conclusions :)

[theseed]

I, too, derive my conclusions from scripture, as do most if not all, here.

I am glad you find rest in your faith and conclusions :)
I know. Thank you. :)

[theseed]

Henaynei and others, If you believe that Yeshua was and is Hashem? And yet not do not accept the view of the trinity, then how can God the Fathe and God the Son be in 2 places? Do you believe in a di-atararin view?

And in John 4, Jesus said, God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship him in the Spirit and in the truth, how do you reconcile this with Yeshua as HaShem incarnate?

[Henaynei]

how can G-d the Father and G-d the Son be in 2 places? Do you believe in a di-atararin view? When we make assertions such as this it displays how linear and homo-centric human beings are. G-d is omnipresent - a statement or question about "how can He be in 2 places at once?" is non-sequitor.

And in John 4, [Yeshua] said, G-d is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship him in the Spirit and in the truth, how do you reconcile this with Yeshua as HaShem incarnate? Did you read posts # 14 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1139264&postcount=14)& 15 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1139288&postcount=15) on this thread?? They will answer most of the questions you have about what I believe about the nature of HaShem and Yeshua.

[theseed]

When we make assertions such as this it displays how linear and homo-centric human beings are. G-d is omnipresent - a statement or question about "how can He be in 2 places at once?" is non-sequitor.

Not for me, I believe in the trinity, the 3 fold nature of God, but if one believes that one is Yeshua and HaShem, then they believe in a 2-folder nature? So that leaves the part about the spirit.


Did you read posts # 14 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1139264&postcount=14)& 15 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1139288&postcount=15) on this thread?? They will answer most of the questions you have about what I believe about the nature of HaShem and Yeshua.

I will go back and read sometime. But have you heard of the Paraclete? It is from the greek word for Holy Spirit in John 14 and 15, it is the helper who leads us into all truth, whatever Jesus has taught? Is this not a third nature of God?

Do you think Jesus had the full Paraclete, or the Paraclete is something different, Jesus was the Son, so he could not be the paraclete also? Not exactly, it would be a different personality of God. Is it possible that there are more than 3 personalities for God? He did say He is who He is, but each of these personalities must be one , becasue God is one.

[sojeru]

The Sages say that The Holy Spirit IS THE SPIRIT of The Messiah in Heaven- thus they say that The Messiah in Heaven and the Holy Spirit are the Same exact being.

The Man that we know as Jesus/ Yeshuah had the FULLNESS, the ENTIRE HOLY SPIRIT indwelled in him, and so now, in a sence, that Spirit has form (according to my present knowledge), However, the Father, which is the NOTHING (AYIN)
For the nothing dwells in everything, and so does the son- they are not the same being- they are different.
We explain G-D by calling him "nothing Everything" seems to be a contradiction however it is not- this is the way we understand G-D...
When there is literally nothing- we do not know what is there, the everything, we KNOW the something that exists.
The nothing is an energy that we know exists yet we do not have any knowledge of it whatsoever- and one day we will come to know that nothing for we will be a part of the nothing.

There is and there isnt three.

the Nothing, the Spirit, and the Son.

The son is flesh, the Son is Israel and no one else.
Israel is the first born and he has no other he says, and Messiah is the first born of All creation- so understanding John correctly, Messiah is the symbolism of Israel- and Israel will die and be ressurected:D

I know, kind of out there right- but it is true

oh well, ive been talking for a long while already

bye

[theseed]

Wow, Sojeru, I can see that Jews and Gentiles see the world differently. I kinda underastand what you are saying and at the same time confused. But what you said is helpful, I guess.

[sojeru]

hmm, maybe I can clarify...
The father is the nothing that is existant with himself
Messiah, the Holy Spirit is the exactness of the nothing- however, it is the first something.
Every creation dwells within the Messiah, and the Holy Spirit dwells within all things (life breath) however, an addition was given to men (because they are the only ones that can speak)
Everything that G-D decrees is manifested through the messiah.
However, the Messiah is not G-D.

Take Josef for example,
PAr'oh (Pharaoh) in egyptian is G-D...not only king.
They saw G-D in the physical, never Spiritual and G-D to them was the things they could see, and also the pharaoh.
And Josef was second in command...his superior on earth was "g-d" (Pharaoh). Yet everything that Josef decreed was as if it was pharaoh's own words.

G-D tells the same thing to Moses about himself.
And those that Moses put in charge (the 70 elders) are also like Josef...these are also Messiah's (this is a different topic, and I am sure that i am confusing you more lol)- Josef himself was a Messiah and a reflection of a mission that Messiah will go through.

There are messiah's today- and these are the religious leaders of the Jewish people.
All of these give example to THE MESSIAH and they are ordained by MESSIAH and by G-D the Father.

Angels are a manisfestation of G-D, but they are not G-D...and the same is with THE MESSIAH, the first born of creation- ISRAEL.

and humans are also a manisfestation of G-D for we are made in his image---so that means that every man that ever lived is a prophet whether or not their prophecy be evil or good.

[Henaynei]

I will go back and read sometime. TS, you asked a question - I direct you to the answer, you lay it aside and continue with your question.... I'm so very sorry and do not intend to offend, but this has more the tember of diadactic than a conversation. Frankly, I'm not interested.

If you read the posts to which I directed you and you come back with questions based with a knoweldge of my understanding then we can dialogue :)

But have you heard of the Paraclete? It is from the greek word for Holy Spirit in John 14 and 15, it is the helper who leads us into all truth, whatever Jesus has taught? Is this not a third nature of God?

Do you think Jesus had the full Paraclete, or the Paraclete is something different, Jesus was the Son, so he could not be the paraclete also? Not exactly, it would be a different personality of God. Is it possible that there are more than 3 personalities for God? He did say He is who He is, but each of these personalities must be one , becasue God is one.

TS, most of the MJs on this site came from or out of a significant walk in Christianity and are quite familiar with such basic terminology and doctrines as Paraclete and Trinity.

Again, you will find my answer, and several others seemed to agree with what I posted in the posts # 14 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1139264&postcount=14)& 15 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1139288&postcount=15) in the this thread. It really is quite a waste of time to repeat over and over what readily available for your viewing.

Sorry, it has been a long day and I really have a short attention span for things like this.

Shalom,
Henaynei

[theseed]

[/color][/font]TS, you asked a question - I direct you to the answer, you lay it aside and continue with your question.... I'm so very sorry and do not intend to offend, but this has more the tember of diadactic than a conversation. Frankly, I'm not interested.

If you read the posts to which I directed you and you come back with questions based with a knoweldge of my understanding then we can dialogue :)
[color=#4169e1][color=#000000][/font]
TS, most of the MJs on this site came from or out of a significant walk in Christianity and are quite familiar with such basic terminology and doctrines as Paraclete and Trinity.

Again, you will find my answer, and several others seemed to agree with what I posted in the posts # 14 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1139264&postcount=14)& 15 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1139288&postcount=15) in the this thread. It really is quite a waste of time to repeat over and over what readily available for your viewing.

Sorry, it has been a long day and I really have a short attention span for things like this.

Shalom,
HenayneiIt's just it's so hard to follow. Especially Part 2, that's the part I did not finish. So much of it is new to me or at least the way you explain it.

[theseed]

hmm, maybe I can clarify...
The father is the nothing that is existant with himself
Messiah, the Holy Spirit is the exactness of the nothing- however, it is the first something.
Every creation dwells within the Messiah, and the Holy Spirit dwells within all things (life breath) however, an addition was given to men (because they are the only ones that can speak)
Everything that G-D decrees is manifested through the messiah.
However, the Messiah is not G-D.
Ok, I follow this.
There are messiah's today- and these are the religious leaders of the Jewish people.
All of these give example to THE MESSIAH and they are ordained by MESSIAH and by G-D the Father.



This I understand too, and I see how Yeshua the Moshiak and Yosef were alike, alot.

and the same is with THE MESSIAH, the first born of creation- ISRAEL.
But the word "Isreal" means one who has wrestled with God? And I know that Yeshua will continue the kingdom of Isreal, but I don't see how Yeshua is Isreal Can you explain this?

[Henaynei]

It's just it's so hard to follow. Especially Part 2, that's the part I did not finish. So much of it is new to me or at least the way you explain it.
That is what I said :)

When you have read, or honestly tried to, let's talk about what you did not understand,k?

[theseed]

Ok, I remember learning about the Shekinia, and how it was in the holy of holies. All of this explains how Yeshua is HaShem.

But are you saying that Yeshua had a soul seperate from Shekhinah?

I thought the Shekniah was what went to to hell and took the keys of death (Rev.1.18).

What about those who are asleep in Christ after the ascension? (1 Thess. 4). Or does this refer to those who died before Christ came? I remember that Job says that he knows his redeemer lives and in his flesh he will see God, even after it has rotted. But does those asleep in Christ not refer to those that believed in Christ after his death and ressurection?

Also, I don't see anything you have wrote contradicting what trinity theology.


Shekhinah is what we call the Holy Spirit, and is one way the HaShem expresses himself, this is what is meant by personality.

Son is also the way HaShem has expressed himself, another personality

Father is also HaShem, although there is no flesh form, but is another expression of the of HaShem.

Now, I supppose there are more expressions like Judge (Elohim) and LORD (Adonai), which would support more than 3 parts. But the believer, me and you, only is involved with three parts. The believer has become the most holy of holies through the work of Christ, and the Shekhinah lives in the believer and in the church, the body of Christ. We are told to baptize in the name of the Son, Father, and Spirit (Matt. 28.10).

Do you understand where I am comming from?

[Henaynei]

Ok, I remember learning about the Shekinia, and how it was in the holy of holies. All of this explains how Yeshua is HaShem.

But are you saying that Yeshua had a soul seperate from Shekhinah?

I thought the Shekniah was what went to to hell and took the keys of death (Rev.1.18).

Also, I don't see anything you have wrote contradicting what trinity theology.

Shekhinah is what we call the Holy Spirit, and is one way the HaShem expresses himself, this is what is meant by personality.

Son is also the way HaShem has expressed himself, another personality

Father is also HaShem, although there is no flesh form, but is another expression of the of HaShem.

Now, I supppose there are more expressions like Judge (Elohim) and LORD (Adonai), which would support more than 3 parts.

Do you understand where I am comming from?
We used Shekhinah only to assist in differentiation between the Ruakh (we called the Holy Spirit) and the Spirit of G-d which Yeshua's Spirit - an order of magnitude different than the Ruakh which is imparted to us, for we have our own "human" spirit.

Yeshua was a fully human body and a fully human soul and divine Spirit. Yeshua is not a personality of G-d but G-d Himself. There is only One G-d, no parts of G-d and no seperate personalities of G-d. It is our linear humanity that strives so hard to figure out how G-d can be "in two places @ once" and yet not have any seperation of any kind. G-d is not 2 or 3 of any thing or kind - He is only One.

What about those who are asleep in Christ after the ascension? (1 Thess. 4). Or does this refer to those who died before Christ came? I remember that Job says that he knows his redeemer lives and in his flesh he will see God, even after it has rotted. But does "those asleep in Christ" not refer to those that believed in Christ after his death and ressurection?
Those who died before His sacrifice were taken with Him after He defeted Death and Hell. "Asleep in Messiah" refers to those who died after His sacrifice - though I am sure that there are those who have differing opinions. As with Christianity - Messianic Judaism has numerous opinions within it on topics like that (to whom those passages refer).

[theseed]

[QUOTE=Henaynei] Yeshua was a fully human body and a fully human soul and divine Spirit. Yeshua is not a personality of G-d but G-d Himself. There is only One G-d, no parts of G-d and no seperate personalities of G-d. It is our linear humanity that strives so hard to figure out how G-d can be "in two places @ once" and yet not have any seperation of any kind. G-d is not 2 or 3 of any thing or kind - He is only One./QUOTE]

I agree, it's hard to comphrehend. But HaShem is not only in 2 places but also 2 people, Father and Son. The Father is fully God and the Son, Yeshua, is too. It's not about the 2 places I have always accepted that. It's being 2 persons. And if there are 2 persons in one entity, then there are 2 personalities. To my parents I am a son and to my brother I am a brother, yet I am one and not two people. God has mutliple identities or roles like Father and Son.

[Henaynei]

[QUOTE=Henaynei] Yeshua was a fully human body and a fully human soul and divine Spirit. Yeshua is not a personality of G-d but G-d Himself. There is only One G-d, no parts of G-d and no seperate personalities of G-d. It is our linear humanity that strives so hard to figure out how G-d can be "in two places @ once" and yet not have any seperation of any kind. G-d is not 2 or 3 of any thing or kind - He is only One./QUOTE]

I agree, it's hard to comphrehend. But HaShem is not only in 2 places but also 2 people, Father and Son. The Father is fully God and the Son, Yeshua, is too. It's not about the 2 places I have always accepted that. It's being 2 persons. And if there are 2 persons in one entity, then there are 2 personalities. To my parents I am a son and to my brother I am a brother, yet I am one and not two people. God has mutliple identities or roles like Father and Son.This is where we differ - to me HaShem was not in two discrete places or in two discrete people - at the same time. There is only one "person" and only one "personality." G-d is One. :) As our statement agrees, Yeshua is indeed fully G-d in that His Spirit is G-d (note: not G-d's). G-d has no multiples, not identities, not roles, not personalities :) There is no distinction between HaAv, HaBen, HaRuakh - all one - manifestations, not distinctions.
"The L-rd, our G-d, the L-rd is One."http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_5_1.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[theseed]

This is where we differ - to me HaShem was not in two discrete places or in two discrete people - at the same time. There is only one "person" and only one "personality." G-d is One. :) As our statement agrees, Yeshua is indeed fully G-d in that His Spirit is G-d (note: not G-d's). G-d has no multiples, not identities, not roles, not personalities :) There is no distinction between HaAv, HaBen, HaRuakh - all one - manifestations, not distinctions.
"The L-rd, our G-d, the L-rd is One."http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_5_1.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)
I agree he is one, but how can he be Father and Son at the same time? He can be he is God. If he is Hashem and Hashem is Father and Son and he is one, then how can one be both Father and Son? We Protestant Christians say "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit" and we say they are "3 in 1" but this gets confusing because 3 does not equal 1 mathematically. You say The Son is HaShem and that The Father is HaShem, but you are saying that God is not both are you not?

In Math. 28 is Jesus commands his Apostles to baptize in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, thus giving this implication that they are all equally important.

[theseed]

There is no distinction between HaAv, HaBen, HaRuakh - all one - manifestations, not distinctions .
I agree they are one manifistation of God, there is only one God, but there is distictions, HaAv is the Father, HaBen is the Son who submits to the Father, and HaRuakh is the Holy Spirit who is our helper and who guides us into all truth.

[Henaynei]

.
I agree they are one manifistation of God, there is only one God, but there is distictions, HaAv is the Father, HaBen is the Son who submits to the Father, and HaRuakh is the Holy Spirit who is our helper and who guides us into all truth.
I know this will only increase the confusion, but, Yeshua the Man (flesh and soul) submitted ot HaShem, Yeshua HaShem (Shekhinah) did not.

The terms Father, son etc are communication consessions G-d has made ot try to communicate with our linear mind. G-d has always been our guide and helper. The Ruakh is not a seperate personage and seperate identity - there is no separation :)

[theseed]

I know this will only increase the confusion, but, Yeshua the Man (flesh and soul) submitted ot HaShem, Yeshua HaShem (Shekhinah) did not.

I can't confirm or refute this at this time. And it is confusing. But God (Shekhinah) can submit to himself can he not? And I think Yeshua put his God "powers" aside, and submited to God as we read in Phillipians 2, and when he transfigured he was in full glory, (or only enough for the human eyes of his disciple). So, I think I agree with that, and I think I just confirmed it.

The terms Father, son etc are communication consessions G-d has made ot try to communicate with our linear mind. G-d has always been our guide and helper. The Ruakh is not a seperate personage and seperate identity - there is no separation :)

Ruakh is the Holy Spirit who inspired the writers of the bible and now lives in every believer, and enables them through spiritual gifts to minister to others, share The Word, and know all things that Jesus tought (John 14 -15). He is the Shekhinah, but does not fully empower the believer, does not exert the same magnitude as He could if he wanted to. He is the wisper, perhaps, that Elijah heard heard after the earth, a soft voice of HaShem. In Acts 2 he poured out his Spirit or Shikhinah and this was Ruakh. Not every one who had faith was inspired by Ruakh (2 Tim. 3.16), but now every one who believes and acts on that believe (faith) will recieve Ruakh as Teacher and Helper.

Now, it seems to be your understanding that HaShem is aware of Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But I sumbit to you that even if He does (And I don't see why not), then he doe play 3 roles on the human level, He is our Father, our Brother (Yeshua), and our Paraclete (Ruakh). But in God's mind, he is one, ever where and in every minute of time, and outside time, so he is one in mind and thought as you ascert. But because his thoughts are so much higher than ours, then he developed this plan that we could related to him. He came to us in human form and and gave us taught us to understand him as God the Fahter, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All these are one in mind and thought. Do you agree with this?

It's really hard to understand how 3 = 1 :scratch: , becasue of our limited human minds. But when I read in Genesis 1 or 2, "Let us make man in our image" I wonder who was the "us"? But form context, it is God, the "us" is God. "And so God made man in his own image..." So it is clear here that "us" here is of one mind and one thought.

So the trinity is a concept that allows us to sort things out and understand how God works, and God works so that we can understand him. The Law showed us what sin is, but sin was always sin without the Law, but God used it to reveal our sin and understand our sin, and conceptualize our sin (Romans 6-8). So God has revealed himself as HaAv, HaBen, and, HaRuakh and it was man that called this the trinity so that they could make sense how God is one. Do you realize that the trinity teaching is used to help us conceptualize that God is one? It is not done so that there could be 3 Gods to worship.


Do you agree with what I've said? Am I making any sense :) I think we agree much more than we disagree. :)

[Achichem]

Henaynei and others, If you believe that Yeshua was and is Hashem? And yet not do not accept the view of the trinityI think I will answer this for myself(as I stand right now), even if I didn't read if anyoen else has the same.
I do not accpet the trinity doctirne in three ways:
1)There is not three people, only three "artifical" divisions
2)There is not equality, roles are played in accordence to function
3)G-d only as a whole can be consistered a "entity" or "person" or be personified.(worship outside this is idolatry)
then how can God the Father and God the Son be in 2 places? Do you believe in a di-atararin view?No, I believe Yehsua is a part of the body, subjective to head (i.e a hand)
And in John 4, Jesus said, God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship him in the Spirit and in the truth, how do you reconcile this with Yeshua as HaShem incarnate?Spirit is like breath,only study of the Torah and understanding of what the Holy Spirit is can one undertsand what is being said, IMO.You are saying this is like spirit is like obe which to me just is not the case!

Shalom,
Datsar

[theseed]

Hey DaTsar :wave:

1)There is not three people, only three "artifical" divisions

If you look at my responses after post 14-15, you will see that I agree, and the trinity is a way of conceptualizing God's "artificial" divisions because it is hard to grasp these division and see God as only one.

2)There is not equality, roles are played in accordence to function
I'm not sure what you mean by this, and I agree that roles are functions. I believe that each "artifiicial" division is equal, in that each division is arbitrary, but in our limited minds we can only engage in on arbitrary division at a time. God set these functions up for our purpose and not His. Because we are limited.

G-d only as a whole can be consistered a "entity" or "person" or be personified.(worship outside this is idolatry)

I have always considered God as a whole and one entity, the concept of personaliy means that one does not know what the other is personality is doing, so this may be bad wording on my part. Only HaShem is to be worship, and Yeshua is worshipped, and his HaShem.

In reality, I've never know non MJ worship the Holy Spirit, He is often ignored, if the truth be known. But we say God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Yeshua the Messiah told us to baptize in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, therefore, they are all equally important, yet arbitrary, divisions.

No, I believe Yehsua is a part of the body, subjective to head (i.e a hand)


I'm startng to think that the man part of Yeshua submited to the Father, but the Shekhinah part was put aside. In Philippians 2, Paul writes that Jesus made himself to be nothing, and humbled himself? Why? Because he did not consider equality something to be grasped. And why should we then think that we can grasp that equality that he had with HaShem?
Spirit is like breath,only study of the Torah and understanding of what the Holy Spirit is can one undertsand what is being said, IMO.You are saying this is like spirit is like obe which to me just is not the case!

I don't know what you menat by the word "obe", but I think The Shekhinah is Ruakh, but not in the same magnitude. I think if The Holy Spirit fully released himself then we would be overpowered, and even destroyed. When Jesus Christ transfigured himself in Luke(?), He was revealing the Shekhinah Glory.


Do you agree?

[Henaynei]

Do you agree with what I've said? Am I making any sense :) I think we agree much more than we disagree. :)
Not entirely, but perhaps you're right and we agree to some degree..

as God the Fahter, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All these are one in mind and thought. Do you agree with this?
Using your theological linguistric constructs, I can agree with this, but it is incomplete to my mind - He is also One in Essense, in "personality" and in personhood.

Shalom,
Henaynei

[theseed]

Henaynei
After much thought, I don't think we are suppose to understand it completely, after all Paul says that Christ Himself did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. Why should we think we can grasp the nature of Yeshua?

Philippians 2
6Who, being in very nature[1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Phil.+2&NIV_version=yes&language=english#footnote_152113421_1)] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,


Anyways, think you for your time :)

[Henaynei]

Even if we decided to agree that the term "trinity" is strictly a conceptual tool, it is a total failure with the Jewish people, and "it ain't a doin' too good fer the gentiles neither!!" Both for the same reason essentially......

The wording, teaching and traditions in and around the concept "trinity" has come to use additional terms like: persons, identities, seperate etc..... these "ideas" inevitably lead to a tradition that sees and teaches that there are 3, seperate in this and that and the other thing......

Such a concept is heretical in the Old Testament scriptures and thus in Judaism. This one concept and doctrine has done more to build a barrier keeping G-d's people out of the acceptance of Yeshua than any other Christian issue, save only the millenia of persecution for "killing their G-d."

[BenTsion]

Recently I was questioning my Rabbi about the concept of the Trinity and he sort of agrees with Henaynei on the manifestation theory. But he said a sentence I'll never forget. He said though he respects the Trinity as a way of trying to explain G-d's nature, from a historical perspective, such concept has done more harm than good, as it has:

1 - Made G-d's nature something extremely complicated in a philosophical sense;
2 - Given birth to lots of heresy as it is dangerously close to thriteism;
3 - Widened the gap between the Church and Israel making the latter less willing to
accept/understand Messiah's divinity;
4 - Given room for some serious abuse in translation. Apparently the Greek word used
when the concept was formulated has nothing to do with the Western concept of
a 'person' (DaTsar, we need a Greek specialist round here? ;-))
5 - Given people the idea they can have a relationship with just a part of the 'Godhead'
(more heresy)

I personally don't dig modalism (to be honest with you guys I've given up formulating an opinion on this matter - I have humbly accepted the fact that G-d's nature is beyond human comprehension - but I know that He has chosen to reveal Himself to us as HaAv, HaBen and HaRuach but He's still ONE G-d), but I must admit that the rabbi does have a point and when we look at it from a historical perspective, it IS scary.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Henaynei]

Recently I was questioning my Rabbi about the concept of the Trinity and he sort of agrees with Henaynei on the manifestation theory. But he said a sentence I'll never forget. He said though he respects the Trinity as a way of trying to explain G-d's nature, from a historical perspective, such concept has done more harm than good, as it has:

1 - Made G-d's nature something extremely complicated in a philosophical sense;
2 - Given birth to lots of heresy as it is dangerously close to thriteism;
3 - Widened the gap between the Church and Israel making the latter less willing to
accept/understand Messiah's divinity;
4 - Given room for some serious abuse in translation. Apparently the Greek word used
when the concept was formulated has nothing to do with the Western concept of
a 'person' (DaTsar, we need a Greek specialist round here? ;-))
5 - Given people the idea they can have a relationship with just a part of the 'Godhead'
(more heresy)

I personally don't dig modalism (to be honest with you guys I've given up formulating an opinion on this matter - I have humbly accepted the fact that it is G-d's nature is beyond human comprehension - but I know that He has chosen to manifest Himself to us as HaAv, HaBen and HaRuach but He's still ONE G-d), but I must admit that the rabbi does have a point and when we look at it from a historical perspective, it IS scary.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion
Kinda what I was saying too :(

[theseed]

I have humbly accepted the fact that it is G-d's nature is beyond human comprehension.

I agree. If Christ did not Himself, consider it something to be grasped, then how should we? I find myself going in circles now, and I give up for now:sigh: . But I will still learn as much as I can.

Philippians 2
6Who, being in very nature[1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Phil.+2&NIV_version=yes&language=english#footnote_152113421_1)] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

[Achichem]

I think I grasp it just fine, it is just trivial! (That is if your alterative is simple he is one, I.e. a Jew)
Also I do not agree with the Christian take, clear signs of this is just recently a non-messianic jew I have talked with who ask me about it, even regard my understanding as not idolatry, and regarded it with respect. (Which is as then I can say about the Christian take, which even I see as idolic[that christianity as a whole not necessarily you personally, who may or may not take it too far])
I believe that each "artificial" division is equal,Yes that one of the things I would never agree to, the father is not equal to the son, as my foot is not equal to my heart, each function and role has it place and it importance varies,because one can not be compared to the other, they are 100% interdependent. (I will explain further)
God set these functions up for our purpose and not His.These functions and roles are a bi-products of life, nothing more, they are neither created not have they never not existed, it follows the same basic presents of any life form, from a perodic element up to a human being. Sure I know what your saying, G-d is of course more complex, being how he is, but this principle if understood correctly is nothing more then the principle of self concept at work, there is not division there is merely a system of system (as us or any other somthing in creation) (which I sure even you agree to)
I have always considered God as a whole and one entity,Glad to hear it
the concept of personality means that one does not know what the other is personality is doing, so this may be bad wording on my part.No the problem with saying it only personally is three things:(I do hope it is just bad wording)
1) Interdependence (personality usually relate to independent beings)
2) Personally have their own thoughts, systems do not, they require their thought in one part and their action in another.
3) Personality depicts some degree of difference as in let us say two cells, well system depicts no degree of difference, like fire which has, a system of functions and roles, yet no parts per say, like a human body, it is simply fire!
Only HaShem is to be worship,I am saying more that can only worship HaShem as a whole, not in functions depite them being in fact G-d.
and Yeshua is worshipped, and his HaShem.I agree to a degree,
Take fire again: the light part of fire and the heat part of fire are ultimately complety diffrent and yet the abosolute same, yet that does not necessarily mean that if you worship the heat of the fire you are worshiping fire, instead heat is only one aspect which can yes be a way to connect to the fire as a whole, but it also can be use to worship just heat in which case, when the concept is applied to G-d, Idolatry. (Putting other elohim before Him, even if the other elohim is within him)
In reality, I've never know non MJ worship the Holy Spirit, He is often ignored,When I apply He(personhood) to the spirit I am taking about G-d(F.,S. and H.S.) not the Spirit alone anymore, I am only using the acting function of the Holy Spirit (think the heat and the fire again).Yet, I do not worship the spirit alone, only within certain manner, any other way is Idolatry. This is what Jews do, they use the Spirit of G-d to worship G-d, not the spirit as or of itself.
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.[/qutoe]
Yet there still remains two ways to take this-G-d the plural(a gorup of cells), God the singular(fire)
The bases of the trinity (trinity doctrine) call on the plural angle which to in my mind causes idolatry in many.
[quote]Yeshua the Messiah told us to baptize in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, therefore, they are all equally important, yet arbitrary, divisionsI see it in a comply different light, to show lets bring it back to the fire analogy:

If I say by heat, by flame, by light, I am affirming belief in the full Fire (I am affirmed to all roles, and to know all roles), yet if I was to then suppose from that that heat is equal to flame, that is incorrect. Each function (role) is of the one fire and cann't be seprated what so ever, only affirmed!
I don't know what you menat by the word "obe",It’s a Hebrew word often translated familiar spirit, it refer to a type of Idolatry. These spirits which are very different type then hte Holy spirit (which comes from a comply different Hebrew word), and their meaning are profoundly diffrent. One is a force, a system like heat inside the flame, or breath from your mounth, that is the Holy spirit. (Acting as a hand for the G-d as a whole to interact with man). The other, obe is a "spiritual entity" separate from G-d and not to be regarded. (I am showing emphasis on the importance on oneness, and the importance not to worship the Spirit apart from G-d(which is easier then most assume, giving it, it’s own gifts and powers), which is exactly, even if unintentional,what I see all too many Christians doing from their understanding)

I think if The Holy Spirit fully released himself then we would be overpowered, and even destroyed.The holy spirit is not a himself without the other elements of the One G-d. Also if such that would be called G-d in his full glory or HaShem or father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The power is all element together not one element acting in some greater act.
Do you agree?Clearly not, either that or we do horribly mis-understand each other.
I do not worship anything But (the father, the son, and the holy spirit) together never apart, and that is the important part too often and directly cause by the trinity doctrine, which I believe call my belief heresy.

[Hix]

Mark 13:32: "But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son, but the Father."

This verse pretty much tears away any possibility of a trinity. The trinity itself like alot of christian theology came from good ol Constantine who brought it in from pagan religion. He was a follower of the pagan sun god Mithras who was believe it or not the human part of their false god in a trinity, he was worshipped on a special day every week called SUNday (being the sun god) as well as many other things that would be adopted to christianity. Its strange and sort of sad that all these things came in and clouded over the truth of Yeshua and the Jewishness thereof.

Shema Yisrael Ad-nai elohienu Ad-nai echad. Baruch HaShem kivod malchuto leolam vaed. ;)

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[BenTsion]

Mark 13:32: "But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son, but the Father."

This verse pretty much tears away any possibility of a trinity, in fact, Yeshua never claimed to be G-d at all saying that the father was greater than him.

Not so fast! Have you forgotten that Yeshua gave up His glory when He came to Earth. He imposed limitations on himself so that verse doesn't prove anything.

It is not Yeshua's divinity that is in discussion here. That has been dealt with over and over. What is in discussion here is the nature of G-d and what HaAv, HaBen and HaRuach represent.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Hix]

Yes I know that, thats why I didnt dwell on the topic, you cut what I said entirely out of context. The verse shows that the trinity is impossible becuase if Yeshua were HaShem how could HaShem know something Yeshua doesnt even know?

Like I said, I wasnt debating Yeshuas divinity, if you had quoted my whole post and not a single sentence that would be obvious.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Achichem]

This verse pretty much tears away any possibility of a trinity, in fact, Yeshua never claimed to be G-d at all saying that the father was greater than him.Not, to start a deabate or anything(I too think it is dangreuous to dwell on), but actually my understanding of what is, can and has been called "trinity"(even though it isn't) actually, this verse only proves it more!As that is exsaclly what it is saying, would be!

The trinity doctrine, which is what people should consult with before they throwing around words like "trinity", says a very paganist and very warped understanding which can and offten does lead one to Idolary and clouded sight of who G-d is.This is the bases of the chirstian understanding, and one should ask hard question about it and deal wiht it first, before tryign to teach people other defintions for the word.IMO

[BenTsion]

DaTsar,
Though many Messianics may not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity (and such fact is quite understandable), I fail to see how the Trinity promotes idolatry. Since people believe Yeshua is HaShem in the flesh, how can that be idolatry? Mind you, the definition of idolatry is 'worship of something that is not G-d'. If Trinitarians believe Yeshua IS G-d, they cannot be called idolaters.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[simchat_torah]

Shalom Ben,

There is a great deal of history behind the word 'trinity' that many Jews and messianics feel uncomfortable with. I would say that if what one states as their beliefs is not offensive to you (for example, if the accept the divinity of the Messiah) then try not to force them to adhere to the wording of choice you may have (such as trinity).

This is only an idea, do as you wish achi.
I just tend to think that where there isn't much difference in theology, why cause more division?

shalom,
Yafet.

[BenTsion]

Shalom Ben,

There is a great deal of history behind the word 'trinity' that many Jews and messianics feel uncomfortable with.


I know, and in fact if you look at the previous posts, I was one who listed many of them. And I agree entirely with what you said and none of my posts said otherwise. I myself am not a big fan of Trinitarianism.


I would say that if what one states as their beliefs is not offensive to you (for example, if the accept the divinity of the Messiah) then try not to force them to adhere to the wording of choice you may have (such as trinity).


I don't understand why you're telling me this, Yafet. I didn't say that DaTsar was not entitled to have his own beliefs neither did I 'force' him to use the word Trinity. What I was questioning was his comment that Trinitarianism is idolatry. The fact that we (and I am including myself here) do not agree with Trinitarianism doesn't make it necessarily 'idolatry'. That was my point, nothing more and nothing less.


This is only an idea, do as you wish achi.
I just tend to think that where there isn't much difference in theology, why cause more division?


I caused no divisions. Again, you should have read my posts before saying that. If you read them carefully, you'd see that I didn't write anything even close to what you are talking about.

Your bro,
Ben Tsion

[simchat_torah]

Well, lol... I was going to show you how my statements applied, but you've since edited the post...

So, I withdraw all my comments.

shalom,
yafet.

[sojeru]

Hi All,
may this find you all and your loved ones in good health.

Now, angels are worshipped by many today- and angels are a function of G-D for angels are called Elohim by the writters of the Hebrew Bible, however, are they TO BE worshipped?

We can understand that they are to be respected, and even an angel wont allow humans to worship him as a king.
unless of course unless its one angel- the one that had always dwelled on earth:D, which is the one that hovered over the waters.

so just because Jesus is worshipped as a g-d outtide of the Bible, does that mean that he is?
In the bible he is worshipped as a king, an authority figure and not G-D the nothing.

and remember, if you had ever come across the article, G-D means Judge, and Jesus is the "MIGHTY G-D" (El Gibbor) not the "ALMIGHTY G-D" ( El Shaddai).

and rabbis from times even beofre jesus were and are called "ELOHIM".

[ShirChadash]

Sojeru, are you saying Yeshua is an angel? Angels are created beings. Is John 1:1 incorrect, as in "and the Word (Memra) was G-d." (which is a completely Jewish teaching as I understand it -- Memra having divine qualities, though, I realize not perhaps the exact same as the Father).

:scratch:

[Achichem]

Well two things;
first most messianic (quite a few Christian too) I have met, believe a more reforms version that diverts from the basis of the trinity the “trinity doctrine” and its basis statement “three persons, one G-d” which in so leads to less of what I call idolatry in this.

Two, the belief alone is only dangerous, if used correctly and in the right context it is ifne and even beneficial, yet its does open the door wide, for the problem.(esspecial for those unfounded in G-d's instruction)
Since people believe Yeshua is HaShem in the flesh, how can that be idolatry?Here is where the problem is,
Despite this fact, there are still two ways to approach such “worship”(in our times):

One, you take Yeshua name as G-d’s interaction with us, you use his name to represents that role, you give honour , respect, and even use it in worship. You use the understanding for fellowship, and honour of all the interaction between G-d and man, as that is the messianic role and function.(you give honor to G-d as a whole, through one of his roles)

Two, you start expanding on Yeshua role, you begin to worship him apart from G-d as a whole(it easier then you might think, to do), you begin to make in your action, worship that cross the line of onesss, making the artificial divisions seem all too real. Yeshua or the Holy Spirit becomes your idol god and the object of the worship, or is elevated before his role in G-d.
I often compare this to people with a foot fetish, Some control this and use it to help to build a stronger relationship with their spouse. Some begin(and its very real) to be soo in love with their spouses feet,they love them more then they love the person as a whole. They are in fact putting the feet before person(it can go for any artifical parting a of a person), or in G-d’s case, "putting elohim before Him”. Which is idolatry, plain and simple.

Now, I would probably be supportive for the idea, except I have seen far too many people (Christian more so, but some messianic also) either begin to or fully do this form of idolatry. To me this a major cause of the great blindness in the followers of Christ.

The hardest thing on a forum is,people do not say with their words what their actions(which reflects their hearts) do, which is where hte rela tell tale signs are.

In any case, it should be taken very seriously, and the holder of the belief should be aware of how dangerous it actually can be for a lot of people and be especially be careful “not to put stumbling block before the blind” or trip on it themselves.


In Messiah,(see how it in a fellwoship role to build stornger realtionship,as the messiah is)
Shalom,
Datsar

[theseed]

I have always been perturbed by the equivocal concept of the Trinity, which generally states that Moshiach ben Yosef is the equal to the Father. However, Yeshua even Himself states that "the Father is greater than I." But when he says that "I and the Father are one," it seems to denote a unity in purpose. Not to mention, trinity concepts are popular among pagan religions such as Hinduism (Brahm, Visnu, and Siva). While of course I agree with Paul in Corinthians, "All the fullness of Deity dwells in Him," I don't think that Yeshua is the equal to YHVH, but is a part of Elohim, a plural word.
I figure Moshiach and the Ruach HaKodesh are smaller circles in a larger one, which encompasses (as the very name Elohim implies), and that is called Yehovah? So, this representation could symbolize YHVH's being greater and that Moshiach ben Yosef and Himself are "one"? Again, the Trinity bothers me. It seems kind of Babylonish. Were the other, pagan trinities a perversion of the true Trinity, or is the Trinity a distortion of the truth?

I'd like to know the "Jewish" view on this subject? I always believed that once the Jews began coming to the Messiah in greater numbers (such as what is happening today, which is another sign that the unification of the two people's of God in the fufillment of times is at hand) they could correct the Gentiles in their misconceptions.
This is contrary to the teaching of Christianity . . Jesus was not a "form" of God . . He WAS and IS God in the flesh . .

The Nicene Creed states what Christians believe

To be a "form" of God suggests an idea of "modality" . . a heresy at the time of the early Church which was condemned . .


I'm quoting this from an Roman Catholic to show that not everybody who believes the Trinity believes in modality, but many use modality type terms to explain how HaAv, HaBen, and HaRuakh are God.

I plan to find out more, but it seems to be that the early chruch leaders, many who were Jewish, apparently reject the same idea of modality that you all MJ's reject too.

[BenTsion]

Well, lol... I was going to show you how my statements applied, but you've since edited the post...

So, I withdraw all my comments.

shalom,
yafet.

Yafet,
The reason why I edited my post was because the first time I wrote it, it sounded like I was saying that 'the Trinity was quite understandable', and in fact what I was trying to say was 'the Messianic rejection to the Trinity is quite understandable'. Was that what caused the misunderstanding? Anyway, if you look at my previous post, you'll see that I actually criticized Trinitarianism (I was a Trinitarian for many years and always had trouble trying to make it all 'make sense').

You know, it's tough not being an English native speaker - first of all there is the cultural factor and second I've lost track of how many times I was misunderstood because of the way I worded my sentences (which usually happens when I'm typing in a hurry, as it was the case). In fact, the reason why I even PM'd you privately was because I am sort of 'traumatized' by being misunderstood due to my not-so-great English skills.

Anyway, since I'm writing you and it's Friday evening (just got back from Shul), I'll take this opportunity to wish you and everyone else SHABBAT SHALOM! :)

BaMashiach,
Ben Tsion

[theseed]

Yafet,
The reason why I edited my post was because the first time I wrote it, it sounded like I was saying that 'the Trinity was quite understandable', and in fact what I was trying to say was 'the Messianic rejection to the Trinity is quite understandable'. Was that what caused the misunderstanding? Anyway, if you look at my previous post, you'll see that I actually criticized Trinitarianism (I was a Trinitarian for many years and always had trouble trying to make it all 'make sense').

You know, it's tough not being an English native speaker - first of all there is the cultural factor and second I've lost track of how many times I was misunderstood because of the way I worded my sentences (which usually happens when I'm typing in a hurry, as it was the case). In fact, the reason why I even PM'd you privately was because I am sort of 'traumatized' by being misunderstood due to my not-so-great English skills.

Anyway, since I'm writing you and it's Friday evening (just got back from Shul), I'll take this opportunity to wish you and everyone else SHABBAT SHALOM! :)

BaMashiach,
Ben Tsion
I think you have great English.




Shalom

[BenTsion]

I think you have great English.

Until I go ahead and say the exact opposite of what I was trying to say... LOL...
that's why I end up re-reading and almost immediately editing nearly all my posts. :sigh:
Anyway, thanks for the compliment (though I don't think I really deserve it). :)

Shabbat shalom!

[theseed]

Until I go ahead and say the exact opposite of what I was trying to say... LOL...
that's why I end up re-reading and almost immediately editing nearly all my posts. :sigh:
Anyway, thanks for the compliment (though I don't think I really deserve it). :)

Shabbat shalom!
Oh, even native speakers have a hard time, and I do the same thing with my posts, it's part of being human :)

[theseed]

I found this to be interesting, but I do see that it seems like a contradiction or paradox at the same time. I've posted it for your benefit and understanding where the word comes from and what it means, and not to refute any agruments.

trinity
a word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of
God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr.
trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas,
first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine. The propositions
involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but
one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2.
That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona,
suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That
Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and
the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.


Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=00-database-info&db=easton): Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

[BenTsion]

Two, you start expanding on Yeshua role, you begin to worship him apart from G-d as a whole(it easier then you might think, to do), you begin to make in your action, worship that cross the line of onesss, making the artificial divisions seem all too real. Yeshua or the Holy Spirit becomes your idol god and the object of the worship, or is elevated before his role in G-d.

Ah... I finally understand what you mean. So you mean, for instance, that people would worship Yeshua and, say, 'ignore' HaAv? Interesting concept. I had never thought of that, but you do have a point.

However, even though I agree with you that it may turn out to be a dangerous practice (it does sound pretty heretical to 'ignore' HaAv or HaRuach), I don't know if I would consider it a form of 'idolatry'...

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[simchat_torah]

Hey Ben, I don't think I've ever asked... what is your native language?

[Henaynei]

Ah... I finally understand what you mean. So you mean, for instance, that people would worship Yeshua and, say, 'ignore' HaAv? Interesting concept. I had never thought of that, but you do have a point.

However, even though I agree with you that it may turn out to be a dangerous practice (it does sound pretty heretical to 'ignore' HaAv or HaRuach), I don't know if I would consider it a form of 'idolatry'...

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion
These are the "Jesus only" people - they don't "ignore" HaAv, for them HaBen is the only G-d. As such I think I do regard it as idolatry - and most of Christindom regards it as heresy.

[Henaynei]

Until I go ahead and say the exact opposite of what I was trying to say... LOL...
that's why I end up re-reading and almost immediately editing nearly all my posts. :sigh:
Anyway, thanks for the compliment (though I don't think I really deserve it). :)

Shabbat shalom!
I, too, do that all the time.....

and then there are the times I say "Well, (some deletable, censorable, forgetable thought) it!" and post it the way it hits the page!!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_3_7.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[BenTsion]

Hey Ben, I don't think I've ever asked... what is your native language?

My native language is Portuguese (which is cool cause it gives me a good grasp of Spanish without having to attend classes - and I know that learning Spanish can be rather painful for my American brothers/sisters...)


These are the "Jesus only" people - they don't "ignore" HaAv, for them HaBen is the only G-d. As such I think I do regard it as idolatry - and most of Christindom regards it as heresy.

I thought the 'Jesus only' people were modalists... :confused:

[Henaynei]

I thought the 'Jesus only' people were modalists... :confused:
They confine the Deity to Yeshua - in authority over HaAv or HaRuakh.

[theseed]

Sometimes, I say that Jesus Christ is my God or that I believe in Jesus Christ, because I know that others around me do not believe that way. We have a problem in America with people shaping the invisible God with the way they want and they don't want Jesus to be apart of it. They have thier own personilzed view without regards to how God as actually revealed himself.

When I pray, I usuallly pray to HaAv, but I come to Him through HaBen, becasue I'm not worthy on my own. And sometimes I ask Ruakh to fill me and in power me to do ministry and to be a witness (I should do this everday).

Do you MJ's agree that The Father, The Son, and The Holly Spirit are 3 different ways that God has revealed himself? And are they 3 different ways he relates to his adopted children?




Hebrews 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=HEB+4:16&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

[Henaynei]

When I pray, I usuallly pray to HaAv, but I come to Him through HaBen, becasue I'm not worthy on my own.
Yeshua instructed us clearly to pray to HaAv, in Yeshua's name. There is no one else to whom we are to pray - not Yeshua and not HaRuakh. At least 5 times Yeshua is documented as instructing us to "pray to the Father." Never once are we instructed to pray to anyone else :)

And sometimes I ask Ruakh to fill me and in power me to do ministry and to be a witness (I should do this everday).
Ask HaAv Elohim to fill you with His Spirit. Don't ask the Spirit to fill you - that is like asking your breath to speak.

Do you MJ's agree that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are 3 different ways that God has revealed himself? And are they 3 different ways he relates to his adopted children?
G-d has revealed Himself in literally hundereds of ways - you can see them in the T'nakh. The Ketuvim Natzrim speaks mostly of those 2 - HaBen and HaRuakh.

[theseed]

Ask HaAv Elohim to fill you with His Spirit. Don't ask the Spirit to fill you - that is like asking your breath to speak.

Like Stephen spoke and Peter spoke in acts, I'm asking for Ruakh to give me the words I need to say.

G-d has revealed Himself in literally hundereds of ways - you can see them in the T'nakh. The Ketuvim Natzrim speaks mostly of those 2 - HaBen and HaRuakh.

I agree, he has. and the Ketuvim Natrim (New Testament?) is mostly written to Christians, and it is how God relates to us. Is the T'nakh the OT?

Why do MJ's use a hebrew version of the NT? Is it for convience? Do you know any MJ's who study the original koine Greek?

[simchat_torah]

Ketuvim Natrim

Close ;)

Ketuvim Netzarim.... writings of the Nazarenes.
or... Brit Chadasah... renewed covenant (aka: nt)

[simchat_torah]

Is the T'nakh the OT?
right on. :)


Why do MJ's use a hebrew version of the NT?
Because often the meaning is either lost, or changed when brought to English.

Is it for convience? Do you know any MJ's who study the original koine Greek?
Most of us don't believe the 'original' documents were penned in Koine Greek, but rather a dialect of Aramaic or Hebrew. Thadman is the guy who is our local Aramaic scholar around here, he has a plethera of information on the topic.

[theseed]

Most of us don't believe the 'original' documents were penned in Koine Greek, but rather a dialect of Aramaic or Hebrew. Thadman is the guy who is our local Aramaic scholar around here, he has a plethera of information on the topic.

I read argument once, but when I looked it up I found his initial premise to be false. Furthermore, much of the NT was written to Gentile Churhes in Corinth, Rome, Ephesus, Laodiceia, Phillpi and so on. It is my understanding that because of the influence of Hellenism, many people were required to know how to speak and read Greek. It became the universal language at the time becasue it was the language of business.</FONT></FONT></FONT>

[theseed]

Because often the meaning is either lost, or changed when brought to English.


But to translate it into hebrew means one has to work backwards from another language like Greek.

[Hix]

You just dont suit green font Yafet :D

[theseed]

Now I remember Thadman's argument. It was Deut. 25.1(?) where it says that no eunich can enter the congration of the Lord. But I think congration here means the priesthood, and not the covenent. This was one of them, I'm not sure how it ralated to the the Eunich in Acts though.

[theseed]

You just dont suit green font Yafet :D
What does Yafet mean? I change my font around often.

[theseed]

Now I remember Thadman's argument. It was Deut. 25.1(?) where it says that no eunich can enter the congration of the Lord. But I think congration here means the priesthood, and not the covenent. This was one of them, I'm not sure how it ralated to the the Eunich in Acts though.
Yes, now I remember the connection. The Eunuch was a Jewish convert, but I say that Deut. 25.1 was about the priesthood only.

[Hix]

LOL Yafet is a name, specifically Simchat_Torah's name *points up*. He usually types in blue, so its like a new haircut online style seeing it in green ;)

Sleehah to lead this off topic >_<

[simchat_torah]

the eunich thing is literally one of hundreds of arguments


You can see a few proofs I've provided at this thread:http://www.christianforums.com/t63859
specifically, under post #10

[simchat_torah]

hahah, why is it I always prefer the off topic discussions?

[theseed]

Well, I have taught on this subject many times. However, in order to understand the answer to this question, there needs to be some basic theological catechesis. First of all, you must understand the difference between essence and substance as they relate to being. Additionally, you must understand the differnce between "existence" and "being". once these are established, you must understand the fall of man, and the debt of that sin. (it's much deeper than simply "sin = death"). Once that foundation is established, we can move into the paying of that debt and how God in his love chose to pay the debt which we could not. next we must examine how God could fulfill justice and satisfy the debt. This meant simultaneously remaining himself (in order to pay it) but also being man (in order to redeem mankind). Once these theological premises are established, we move into the history of the time.

At this time, you had many modes of thought about Jesus. some thought He was just a good person and a perfect example but not really God (this negates His ability to pay the infinite debt of sin). Others believed He was God but not really man (this means that mankind is still unredeemed). Still others thought He was both God and man, but His human nature was necessarilly sinful and remained separate from His divine nature. To learn more about these early heresies, you can look up Donatism, *Arianism*, Palagianism, Gnosticism, and a myriad of others from that time period (Arianism was the leading cause of division and theological dissent at this time). The bottom line is, people's minds were going in all directions, and hitting theological brick walls. The church therefore, established this doctrine in order to describe what is to be understood about the relationship of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Another thing to understand is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not a definition. A definition imposes limits (God is infinite). The trinity is a description. Particularly a description of the relationship between father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Here is some more info on how the doctrine of the teaching came about, but it's someone's POV too. This was an answer in a thread about the nicene creed/

[Achichem]

Sometimes, I say that Jesus Christ is my God or that I believe in Jesus Christ, because I know that others around me do not believe that way. We have a problem in America with people shaping the invisible God with the way they want and they don't want Jesus to be apart of it.I know of what you talking, but still to bring yehsua out of the messianic role, and use this name(which is not the name of G-d,but has a diffrent purpose) in a context for G-d as a whole, is just plain wrong.(I would have to say I would recommend a diffrent approch)

"It is to better believe the heart which says one, then the mind which says and also three."
Do you know any MJ's who study the original koine Greek?That would be me (not saying I am very good at greek yet, but I am learning along the way), I do not however believe(on good sources) that most of the NT was first written in greek, but Aramaic or Hebrew.

I read greek because a lot of the mis-concpetions come from a lack of understandning of very telling words choices made in less tampered with greek texts.

[theseed]

A Look at the Trinity From a Messianic Jewish Perspective

by Richard Harvey
http://www.jfjonline.org/pub/issues/10-08/trinity.htm

[Henaynei]

bump :)

[ILY]

Shalom all :wave:

Very informative thread.
It took about an hour to read through all of it but I learned quite alot.

I have to confess I am not very familiar with alot of the Hebrew terms, but I hope to learn from you.I am especially pleased to see how young and yet zealous some of you are, not to mention knowledgable. :pray:

Good line of questions TS.

I have but one question at the moment, since the hour has gotten late on me.
Luk 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him.

How would the brethren here explain what Yeshua is saying by this in reguards to the Spirit?

Thank you in advance for your time on this. :hug:

Shalom v shalom
ILY

[EchadHashem]

Hi.

Great thread. I have been quite interested in learning about what the Tanach has to say about HaShem.

Hear, O Israel: T