Who is the devil?

[TomUK]

There are huge, elephant sized chunks of theology and scripture that i don't understand, but one of the ones which confuses the most is the issue of the devil. Who is he, what power does he have, is he even a real figure? I must be honest and and say that i think scripture is quite inconsistent on the issue and i would love to know what you all think about the devil.

There's a famous quote from resevoir dogs which is 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.' I would like to propose that the quote is wrong. Instead a far more accurate saying would be 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing Christians that he does exist.' (i know there's an inherent contradiction there but bear with me.) I've been reading and thinking a lot recently about things such as the fall and sin in general. I personally don't believe in the literal account of Adam and Eve but right from the beginning we read that one of the first acts of man after eating the fruit was to 'pass the buck' as it were to his wife. "She gave it to me, it was here fault." One of the biggest problems in evangelism is convincing people that they are inherently sinful. We all like to think we are so good and often when we do something wrong we try and shift the blame onto someone else. I think that has happened with the devil. We have constructed this larger than life entity who is responsible for all the hurt and pain and sin in the world. If we do anything bad it is because we were tempted by Satan. All we are doing is going back to the very first act of sinful Adam. "The Devil tempted me, it's his fault." Do i think that there is a literal being who was expelled from heaven and exists today? Yes (though it wouldn't really affect my theology if he didnt exist). However i think we have blown him out of all proportions to mask our sinfullness. What is needed instead is a degree of accountability. If we sin then we need to stand up and accept that we are responsible for that sin, that it's our fault!. I think that it is inaccurate (and perhaps also sinful in itself) to construct this great evil being who can pass our sin onto. The Father already sent his son for us to pass our sin onto - that's enough.

I also think that if he truely repented then God would welcome him with open arms, just like the prodigal son, but that's another topic!

[karen freeinchristman]

I'll have to come back to this question when I have more time! Good topic, though.

[Iosias]

Question: "Who is Satan?"

Answer: People's beliefs of Satan range from the silly to the abstract: from a little red guy with horns who sits on your shoulder urging you to sin, to an expression used to describe the personification of evil. The Bible, however, gives us a clear portrayal of who Satan is, and how he affects our lives. Put simply, the Bible defines Satan as an angelic being who fell from his position in heaven due to sin and is now diametrically opposed to God, doing all in his power to thwart God's purposes for humanity.

Satan was created as a holy angel. Isaiah 14:12 possibly gives Satan’s pre-fall name as Lucifer. Ezekiel 28:12-14 describes Satan as having been created a cherubim, and was apparently the highest created angel. He became arrogant in his beauty and status, and decided he wanted to sit on a throne above that of God (Isaiah 14:13-14; Ezekiel 28:15; 1 Timothy 3:6). Satan’s pride led to his fall. Notice the many “I will…” statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Because of his sin, God threw Satan out of heaven.

Satan became the ruler of this world that functions apart from God, and the prince of the power of the air (John 12:31; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Ephesians 2:2). He is an accuser (Revelation 12:10), a tempter (Matthew 4:3; 1 Thessalonians 3:5), and a deceiver (Genesis 3; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Revelation 20:3). His very name means adversary or “one who opposes.” Another name used for Satan, the devil, means “slanderer.”

Even though he was cast out of heaven, he still seeks to elevate his throne above God. He counterfeits all that God does, hoping to gain the worship of the world and foment opposition to God's kingdom. Satan is the ultimate source behind every false cult and world religion. Satan will do anything and everything in his power to oppose God, and those who follow God. However, Satan’s destiny is sealed – an eternity in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).

http://www.gotquestions.org/Printer/who-Satan-PF.html

[Iosias]

You could also try http://www.ccel.org/ccel/hodge/theology1.iv.xiii.iv.html

[PaladinValer]

The Devil is a being that many Christians give too much power to.

In reality, the Devil is quite powerless. He, and his demon minions, only become powerful when we give them power over us.

[No Swansong]

You're going to be a great Roman Catholic Tom.

[karen freeinchristman]

You're going to be a great Roman Catholic Tom.
What are you trying to say, John?

We are allowed to express differences of how we view doctrine and dogma and theology AND ask questions about such here in STR. I wonder if you could simply express your own view of Tom's question instead of making a comment like you have that sounds (to me) very snide.

[Mick116]

There are huge, elephant sized chunks of theology and scripture that i don't understand.
^_^ You and me both.

I would love to know what you all think about the devil.
I tend to consider the devil a personification of human sin.
I also think that if he truely repented then God would welcome him with open arms, just like the prodigal son, but that's another topic!If he were an actual being (and one capable of repentance), then yes, I'd probably side with you (and Fr Origen) on this one.

[Sonfest Rocker]

if i had the time or patience to write a good post i would but im not well atm.
i wish i was cuz this is one of the stringer points of my knoledge
sorry tom

[Colabomb]

sorry you aren't feeling good haley.

I believe in a literal being called Satan, the adversary. I admit we do not know much about him, but I have no doubt he is a literal being and he is not an allegory or analogy.

I agree to a point that people give too much power to satan. They overestimate his ability and blame THEIR faults on him. We must take personal responsibility for OUR sin.. But I must also be clear in saying that we must not underestimate him either, as some are quick to do.

We must be steadfast in holding to our Shepherd, because away from His protection, we are prey to the lion.

[No Swansong]

What are you trying to say, John?

We are allowed to express differences of how we view doctrine and dogma and theology AND ask questions about such here in STR. I wonder if you could simply express your own view of Tom's question instead of making a comment like you have that sounds (to me) very snide.
Have you ever known me to be snide? Especially to Tom?

[gtsecc]

In case it has not been mentioned, the quote is from The Usual Suspects.
And, that term comes from the movie Casablanca.

[karen freeinchristman]

Have you ever known me to be snide? Especially to Tom?
What did you mean by your post, then? :confused:
I didn't really understand it, hence the request for clarification.

[No Swansong]

The Devil is really teally bad and ugly two

[Iron Sun 254]

It's Mick Jagger. I've even heard him sing about it.

[PaladinValer]

^
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:D :D :D

Too true! Too true!

Oh, and all hip hop, ska, and modern hard rock music :)

[DarkNLovely]

One of the hardest thing that I have come to understand about the Christian faith is that many things I can not accept with my intellect. (The issue of the devil is not one of them, but we all have different things we can't accept intellectually.) We have such extravagent beliefes and doctrines, and to our unspiritual minds, they make no sense sometimes. While it isn't entirely an answer to your question, I would encourage you to seek God on the matter through prayer and fasting, and to not be discouraged by things that don't seem to ring a bell right off. What I can tell you with confidence, is that the devil is a physicl being and is very real. But that's nothing I deciphered through pouring over scripture and church doctrines. It's a knowledge I have gained from spiritual experience.

[No Swansong]

The Devil is really teally bad and ugly two
This post was made under the influence of mind altering medications. Please disregard I have no idea what I was referring to and it is a grammatical nightmare.

To answer Karen's question I am sorry but it appears that lately you have been increasingly confrontational towards my posts. If Tom desires clarification I will be happy to clarify but I feel you have made an unfounded accusation towards me and it has disturbed me greatly therefore I decline to respond.

[karen freeinchristman]

This post was made under the influence of mind altering medications. Please disregard I have no idea what I was referring to and it is a grammatical nightmare.

To answer Karen's question I am sorry but it appears that lately you have been increasingly confrontational towards my posts. If Tom desires clarification I will be happy to clarify but I feel you have made an unfounded accusation towards me and it has disturbed me greatly therefore I decline to respond.
Gosh, I'm sorry you feel that way. :(

[Iosias]

This post was made under the influence of mind altering medications. Please disregard I have no idea what I was referring to and it is a grammatical nightmare.

I trust you are well now brother! :hug:

[No Swansong]

Richard, you, Karen and some others have shown both interest and compassion concerning this issue which I have remained fairly silent about. Since I consider this a community I feel it would be unfair for me to not respond to your (corporately) concern.

The answer is no I am not well now nor is it likely I will ever improve. My seizures are growing ever more severe and frequent. There are no stronger drugs that they can give me. I now require 24 hour supervision and barring any unforeseen accident my seizures will eventually kill me, either through a heart attack, injury sustained during a seizure or while impaired due to my medication.

My periods of lucidity are becoming fewer and shorter in duration and I have already had periods of time that I have forgotten who my wife and my children are.

Yes I am bitter about this and I apologize for venting.

Thank you for your concern my friend

John

[No Swansong]

I'm sorry can the mods please separate out my post. I just realized how badly I derailed Tom's thread and it was not intentional.

[artybloke]

A mythical being imported from Zoriastrianism by the Pharisees and used to scare the children.

[No Swansong]

A mythical being imported from Zoriastrianism by the Pharisees and used to scare the children.
I wondered how long it would take for a non-Bible believer to get to this rot.

[artybloke]

Of course I don't worship a 2000 year old book. I follow Christ.

[Fish and Bread]

John, I feel for you, buddy. I have milder, but still statistically significant, medically diagnosed memory related issues, so I know a very small part of what you're going through. I was also, many years ago now, told there was a 2/3 or 3/4 chance I might lose both kidneys in fairly short order and I assumed ultimately I would die (I did recover from the immediate problems with my kidneys and have not had a relapse of them in seven years, though I am not trying to imply that you will recover also -- I know how annoying it was when people kept telling me I would recover when I wanted to just prepare for what was probably coming and not get my hopes up for something unlikely to happen). I was lucky, though, in that the nature of my illness was more peaceful for the most part (Though my body would start to convulse sometimes if I got out from under my mountain of 6 or 7 blankets and winter clothing, even in summer, at the time). Let me know if there is anything I can do.

On the topic of the thread, I don't want to speak for jt, but I am piecing together some of what he was saying and I am thinking perhaps what he intended was to say he thinks that Tom's comments on Satan are similar to the Roman Catholic position in that they both seem to assign a relatively minor role to Satan relative to common patterns of evangelical thought, in his opinion. I could be wrong in that supposition, but actually his seizure induced posting about Satan made perfect sense to me in the context of what had come before, the question is only if he intended it to or not.

[TomUK]

John, I know you too well to ever believe you would say something with malicious intent. Please be assured of my continued prayers for you.

Your brother, Tom.

[Colabomb]

Of course I don't worship a 2000 year old book. I follow Christ.

And where do you learn about him?

[Mick116]

A mythical being imported from Zoriastrianism by the Pharisees and used to scare the children.
Quite possibly. Even if the concept of the devil didn't actually originate from Zoroastrian dualism, such religious understanding almost certainly had an influence on later biblical teaching re Satan and the Devil.

Perhaps we can gain some truth from the myth; if nothing else, it teaches us to stand firm against evil and to resist temptation.

[Mick116]

Of course I don't worship a 2000 year old book. I follow Christ.
Most of the book is considerably older than that, of course.

I consider the bible as a unique collection of spiritual writings that intergrate words from God with words of men. There is somewhat of a parallel, I believe, between the dual natures of Christ (human and divine) and the divine and human aspects of scripture.

But Christ is always our starting point; all else scriptural should be interpreted through Christocentric lenses. The case of the Bereans notwithstanding, early Christians didn't accept Christ because they learned about him in scripture: they accepted scripture only because they saw in it something of Christ. For those Christians, the entire Old Testament was seen as a prelude to the main event... God in Christ, the Word made flesh, God with us.

[Mick116]

Richard, you, Karen and some others have shown both interest and compassion concerning this issue which I have remained fairly silent about. Since I consider this a community I feel it would be unfair for me to not respond to your (corporately) concern.

The answer is no I am not well now nor is it likely I will ever improve. My seizures are growing ever more severe and frequent. There are no stronger drugs that they can give me. I now require 24 hour supervision and barring any unforeseen accident my seizures will eventually kill me, either through a heart attack, injury sustained during a seizure or while impaired due to my medication.

My periods of lucidity are becoming fewer and shorter in duration and I have already had periods of time that I have forgotten who my wife and my children are.

Yes I am bitter about this and I apologize for venting.

Thank you for your concern my friend

John
You are in my prayers. May the Lord bless your faith, and hold you firm through all of this.

[No Swansong]

Of course I don't worship a 2000 year old book. I follow Christ.
Did I say anything about Worship? Are you implying that I worship the Bible?

[HyacinthBouquet]

Do you think brain surgery or ethical (from your own bone marrow) stem cell implantation would help the epilepsy? I've certainly heard that people can have brain surgery to stop the fits from occurring. (I'm not sure how far science has progressed with the stem cells though..)

[No Swansong]

John, I know you too well to ever believe you would say something with malicious intent. Please be assured of my continued prayers for you.

Your brother, Tom.
Thank you my young friend your prayers are appreciated more than I can convey.

John

[Iosias]

Please be assured of my continued prayers for you.

Same here. :prayer:

[No Swansong]

You are in my prayers. May the Lord bless your faith, and hold you firm through all of this.
Thank you Mick and welcome to STR.

[No Swansong]

Same here. :prayer:
Richard I hope you know how much I appreciate your concern and your prayers.

[PaladinGirl]

Interesting thread. I don't even know that the devil is a real thing or not. I think that perhaps he is a symbol of the evil in this world.

[TomUK]

Interesting thread. I don't even know that the devil is a real thing or not. I think that perhaps he is a symbol of the evil in this world.

That is what i'm leaning towards aswell. The devil does actually exist but over time all manners of evil and sin have been placed upon the devil - as you say he has become a representation of all that is evil.

I think scripture supports such a belief as well. Even it talks of the devil in highly symbolic language and i think it's been largely down to fundamentalism that some have seen these symbolic accounts as literal descriptions.

[DarkNLovely]

What do you think about demons?

[Colabomb]

Yes there are demons, satan and demons go hand in hand.

[Colabomb]

That is what i'm leaning towards aswell. The devil does actually exist but over time all manners of evil and sin have been placed upon the devil - as you say he has become a representation of all that is evil.

I think scripture supports such a belief as well. Even it talks of the devil in highly symbolic language and i think it's been largely down to fundamentalism that some have seen these symbolic accounts as literal descriptions.

More than just Fundementalists believe in a literal satan. It is the majority opinion of Christianity. That alone does not make it true, but it shows that it is by no means a position unique to fundamentalists.

[DarkNLovely]

How does one that does not believe in a literal Satan interpret the book of Job and the book of Revelation?

[TomUK]

More than just Fundementalists believe in a literal satan. It is the majority opinion of Christianity. That alone does not make it true, but it shows that it is by no means a position unique to fundamentalists.

I don't think only fundamentalists believe in a literal Satan - as i said before i also believe in Satan and i'm certainly not a fundamentalist. However, i do think that it is fundamentalists who have lead the charge to interpret the poetic and symbolic language of much of the bible to refer to a singular being who is responsible for all the evil in the world.

[No Swansong]

Tom my friend I am not sure this is true. Read Milton and Dante etc. Certainly they were not what would today be called a fundamentalist. Read the writings of many of the medieval monks especially those from Ireland, and some of those of France. I am not sure that Fundamentalists have added anything to the doctrine of Satan at all.

[Fish and Bread]

Yes there are demons, satan and demons go hand in hand.

We now have a whole secret forum devoted to them here on foru.ms. And the people who think they're possessed actually get to decide who posts and what can be said. Seriously...

[No Swansong]

More than just Fundementalists believe in a literal satan. It is the majority opinion of Christianity. That alone does not make it true, but it shows that it is by no means a position unique to fundamentalists.
Son I think you misunderstood Tom's post.

[karen freeinchristman]

We now have a whole secret forum devoted to them here on foru.ms. And the people who think they're possessed actually get to decide who posts and what can be said. Seriously...
I recently heard about this - astounding.

[artybloke]

How does one that does not believe in a literal Satan interpret the book of Job and the book of Revelation?
a) an ancient legend turned into a profound poem about suffering

b) extremely figurative apocalyptic literature used as the happy hunting ground of dispensationalist <staff edit>from the first century to now

Next question?

[TomUK]

How does one that does not believe in a literal Satan interpret the book of Job and the book of Revelation?

I'd probably side with artybloke there. Besides, if we accept Job as a literal account of Satan then i think it raises some problematic questions about the role of God in the evil and suffering in our world.

[No Swansong]

I think a more pertinent question would be if Satan isn't real then why did the God who created the universe believe in him and even speak of him and demons? Was Jesus wrong or lieing?

[Fish and Bread]

I'd probably side with artybloke there. Besides, if we accept Job as a literal account of Satan then i think it raises some problematic questions about the role of God in the evil and suffering in our world.

There are also problematic questions about the role of God in the evil and suffering in our world because of the reality of the world. We can try to paper over it and paint a portrait of a God who doesn't operate in ways we don't like, but we have only to look at the world and see that concept of God does not reflect the way things actually are. I found God's portrayal in the Book of Job highly realistic to what I've experienced and some of the things I've seen and heard about. One has to keep in mind that God has to reflect reality or he's not the real God -- he can't just be happy hippy guy that wants to hand us all a million dollars, because we don't all get a million dollars.

The idea that Job might not be literal is a legitimate point, but it still has to be an accurate reflection of what could have been in terms of reflecting faith and morals, or else the bible is errant and the truth on everything is anyone's guess.

I think a more pertinent question would be if Satan isn't real then why did the God who created the universe believe in him and even speak of him and demons? Was Jesus wrong or lieing?

JTB makes a very good point here. Once one goes down the path of rejecting some of what's in the bible, revelation disappears and everything becomes a question. The ultimate logical end of that sort of progressivism* is an unknowable God.

* Here I don't refer to biblical progressivism -- i.e. helping the poor, loving the unloveable, etc. -- just theological propositions that say the bible is not inerrant on at least faith and morals.

[PaladinValer]

Unless Satan was pre-fallen around Job's time, of course.

[DarkNLovely]

It also begs the question of who tempted Jesus in the desert and said what he said to Him? He had to have been literal.

[PaladinValer]

To play Devil's Advocate, it didn't have to be literal: it could have simply been a myth: a story told to tell a religious or moral truth.

It could also have been a midrash.

Personally, I do think the Devil is real, as are demons. However, as I've said before, it is us who put ourselves in danger of their influence, not they nearly as much as we think.

As is often believed, the more you dwell upon or worry about the Devil or demons, the closer you are to being in their clutches.

[No Swansong]

Personally, I do think the Devil is real, as are demons. However, as I've said before, it is us who put ourselves in danger of their influence, not they nearly as much as we think.

As is often believed, the more you dwell upon or worry about the Devil or demons, the closer you are to being in their clutches.

It is very rare that I agree with PV but I have to agree with these comments. I will tell you however I do know someone who did open themselves up to possession and it is my opinion that they were truly possessed.

[Secundulus]

It is very rare that I agree with PV but I have to agree with these comments. I will tell you however I do know someone who did open themselves up to possession and it is my opinion that they were truly possessed.

I agree with PV also.

I once knew a guy, a Christian, who had previously been a Satanist. He had absolutely no doubt at all that the devil and the demons were real.

[artybloke]

I've known several people who believe in UFO's and there are plenty of people who have, according to them, been abducted by aliens.

The mind plays strange tricks with people. Just because you think you've seen a demon, doesn't mean you have.

[No Swansong]

I've known several people who believe in UFO's and there are plenty of people who have, according to them, been abducted by aliens.

The mind plays strange tricks with people. Just because you think you've seen a demon, doesn't mean you have.
And just because you don't believe they exist doesn't mean they don't. I'll stick with Scripture, God and the teaching of the Church for the past 2000 years thanks.

[Colabomb]

We now have a whole secret forum devoted to them here on foru.ms. And the people who think they're possessed actually get to decide who posts and what can be said. Seriously...


I THOUGHT THERE WERE NO SECRET FORUMS IN THE NEW SYSTEM!!!

[Colabomb]

I've known several people who believe in UFO's and there are plenty of people who have, according to them, been abducted by aliens.

The mind plays strange tricks with people. Just because you think you've seen a demon, doesn't mean you have.

Arty, what do you believe in? I mean this literally, not as a jab.

[Fish and Bread]

I THOUGHT THERE WERE NO SECRET FORUMS IN THE NEW SYSTEM!!!
Apparently that was an exaggeration...

By the way, did you notice that the congregation forums have now slipped below the "life stages" forums?

I like a lot of the changes, but I am getting slightly annoyed that everything is always in a constant state of flux. First there are secret forums, then there aren't, now there are. First the congressional forums are at the top, then to the bottom, then back to the top because of public pressure, now second to the top. Even as someone who likes the more open foru.ms, I am not really comfortable with the constant change or the sense of incrementalism. Just pick something and stick to it for a couple years, ya know?

[No Swansong]

There is also a supermod forum. I didn't think this was supposed to happen either.

[higgs2]

There is also a supermod forum. I didn't think this was supposed to happen either.

Huh?

[No Swansong]

http://foru.ms/f476-superadministrator-support-requests-private.html

[higgs2]

http://foru.ms/f476-superadministrator-support-requests-private.html
Oh, the Super*adminstrator* forum. IP checks mainly as far as I know. I thought maybe I was being excluded :doh: LOL!

[No Swansong]

You're right sorry I misidentified it. But it still wasn't supposed to happen. As for whether or not it is mostly IP Checks there is no way for us to really know that is there?

[No Swansong]

Do you think brain surgery or ethical (from your own bone marrow) stem cell implantation would help the epilepsy? I've certainly heard that people can have brain surgery to stop the fits from occurring. (I'm not sure how far science has progressed with the stem cells though.)
I am sorry my friend but I missed your post. No, at least in my case surgery is not possible because of the area of the brain in which the seizures originate.

Sorry for further derailing the thread I just really felt it important to reply to someone who appeared to be so concerned.

Thanks

[HyacinthBouquet]

I am sorry my friend but I missed your post. No, at least in my case surgery is not possible because of the area of the brain in which the seizures originate.

Sorry for further derailing the thread I just really felt it important to reply to someone who appeared to be so concerned.

Thanks

I'm sorry to hear that. Thank you for replying. I will pray for you at Church. God bless you.

:groupray:

[HyacinthBouquet]

I hope that all is well and that your health has improved. God bless you.

[No Swansong]

I hope that all is well and that your health has improved. God bless you.
It has been a good day, thank you for asking!