Question regarding Non-Denominational Churches

[ChinaRoses]

I hope this is the correct place to post this, but I have questions regarding the Non-Denominational churches. I've been to different types of Non-Denominational churches. A few seemed more like Rick Warren's Saddleback church "Purpose Driven", the others were more Pentacostal in nature with speaking in tongues, deliverance, overemphasis on demons. Are there usually differences like this, or maybe it's a local thing.
:confused:

[BustedFlat]

Non Denominational just means that the church does not subscribe to, or is part of a central church government. They are as diverse as man himself. From the ultra liberal to the very fundamental. Each has its own model for how the church is setup and run. It has nothing to do with church doctrine, but with governance. Hope this helps.

[Zecryphon]

I hope this is the correct place to post this, but I have questions regarding the Non-Denominational churches. I've been to different types of Non-Denominational churches. A few seemed more like Rick Warren's Saddleback church "Purpose Driven", the others were more Pentacostal in nature with speaking in tongues, deliverance, overemphasis on demons. Are there usually differences like this, or maybe it's a local thing.
:confused:
The differences you've seen so far in the non-denominational churches you've visited are to be expected. The beliefs of the various non-denom churches are as varied as the members that comprise the churches themselves. Stick around this forum for a while. Poke around, take a look at all the different beliefs that are present here. 95% of the people that post in this section are non-denoms and yet they all seem to believe different things. Some believe in universal salvation, some believe only an elect group are saved. Some believe that baptism is neccessary for salvation, others believe it isn't. Some believe in the trinity, others do not.

I used to be a member of a non-denom church and that church was what I call a mini-mega, non-denom, half-caff with whipped cream church. Why? Because while the majority of pastors were Calvinist in their beliefs, there were other pastors who were more Arminian. There was a big focus on small groups and the small group model was pushed on you, whether you wanted to be in one or not. They said if you were not in a small group you were not serving God. I took numerous spiritual gifts tetsts at that church. Not only to find out what my various gifts were, but also so the church could properly exploit my gifts in service at the church. Nope, couldn't use your gifts outside the church, that wasn't serving God. Nope, you had to serve God inside the church, that's how you served God.

I soon got the feeling that you could pick and choose your beliefs there and I was right. No two people agreed on anything 100%. I call non-denominationalists buffet Christians because they tend to pick and choose that which is true, according to their personal likes and dislikes. Because they do this, you as a Christian, end up not knowing what to believe or who is right and who is wrong. That's how it was for me, I remember when I asked if there were a class I could take to learn more about the thre big creeds, the Apostle's, The Nicene and the Athanasian, I was told that that church didn't teach the creeds, but they did confess parts of them in their statement of faith. I was gonna ask which parts, but decided that if you're not confessing the whole creed, what's the point in confessing any of it? It seemed like they were picking and choosing. That's when it hit me, this place picks and chooses that which is true and that which they deem beneficial.

But the absolute final straw came when the youth group ministers, when teaching a lesson to the kids on Communion said you could replace the bread and wine of Communion with Oreos and milk, I knew I was in a den of heretics, so I quit. I'm now an LCMS Lutheran and have never felt closer to Christ. I had to leave the Rick Warren Hawaiian shirt type church with the Starbucks in the lobby and the golf weekends and tennis clinics and Alpha-type programs and the bring an unsaved friend to church days, type church to find out about Christ. The one thing I will say that was good about that church is that their new membership class was spot-on. Good Biblical teaching, but it seemed to end once the class was done. It was mostly topical preaching week in and week out.

[MoNiCa4316]

I hope this is the correct place to post this, but I have questions regarding the Non-Denominational churches. I've been to different types of Non-Denominational churches. A few seemed more like Rick Warren's Saddleback church "Purpose Driven", the others were more Pentacostal in nature with speaking in tongues, deliverance, overemphasis on demons. Are there usually differences like this, or maybe it's a local thing.
:confused:

Yes, some non denominational churches are charismatic, and some are more like the Baptist churches...there are lots of different ones out there.

Zecryphon, wow that sounds like a pretty confusing church... especially about Communion :sigh: not all non denom churches are like this though...in my church, it's pretty clear what they believe and all the pastors believe the same doctrines (at least it definitely seems that way). And there seems to be a good focus on living 'spiritually' and on prayer, worship, and sanctification. No Starbucks in the lobby :P
But from your post, it sounds like your church was confused and going in the wrong direction...good for you for leaving it and going where you're closer to Christ :thumbsup:

God bless.

[ozell]

I hope this is the correct place to post this, but I have questions regarding the Non-Denominational churches. I've been to different types of Non-Denominational churches. A few seemed more like Rick Warren's Saddleback church "Purpose Driven", the others were more Pentacostal in nature with speaking in tongues, deliverance, overemphasis on demons. Are there usually differences like this, or maybe it's a local thing.
:confused:

Hi sister

keep looking you will know when you have found the right church.

continue to ask God.

be very wary of the doctrine, that is the key.

Christianity consist of the big 3

Roman Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant

if you stay away from these 3 you will find the uncut word of God

seek and you will find
ask and it shall be given

stay clear away from the doctrines

[Zecryphon]

Yes, some non denominational churches are charismatic, and some are more like the Baptist churches...there are lots of different ones out there.

Zecryphon, wow that sounds like a pretty confusing church... especially about Communion :sigh: not all non denom churches are like this though...in my church, it's pretty clear what they believe and all the pastors believe the same doctrines (at least it definitely seems that way). And there seems to be a good focus on living 'spiritually' and on prayer, worship, and sanctification. No Starbucks in the lobby :P
But from your post, it sounds like your church was confused and going in the wrong direction...good for you for leaving it and going where you're closer to Christ :thumbsup:

God bless.
Well, at service it was clear that Communion was symbolic only and that bread and wine were the symbols of the Lords flesh and blood. Standard teaching and practice for a non-denom. The thing that went on in the youth group lesson was something that the church would never approve of, had they known about it. Week to week the doctrine was Biblically sound, but once you started looking into what each individual pastor believed, we had over twenty on staff, you got the sense that not all of them were on the same page. The church spinning it's wheels for a long time as there was no senior pastor to lead the church in practice or doctrine. I got the sense that they were winging it.They went two years without a senior pastor and it showed. I was at that church for five years and when the senior pastor retired, I saw things start to go downhill, fast.

[Zecryphon]

Hi sister

keep looking you will know when you have found the right church.

continue to ask God.

be very wary of the doctrine, that is the key.

Christianity consist of the big 3

Roman Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant

if you stay away from these 3 you will find the uncut word of God

seek and you will find
ask and it shall be given

stay clear away from the doctrines
Ozell, you left out the part where she has to do works to be saved as well. I can't believe you're telling a Christian to avoid Christianity. LOL That's gotta be the funniest thing I've read in a while! LOL So your advice is that she convert to whatever it is you practice and then she'll be on the right path? Am I in the ballpark here? LOL

[ozell]

Ozell, you left out the part where she has to do works to be saved as well. I can't believe you're telling a Christian to avoid Christianity. LOL That's gotta be the funniest thing I've read in a while! LOL So your advice is that she convert to whatever it is you practice and then she'll be on the right path? Am I in the ballpark here? LOL

Hi Zecryphon

I never ask her to practice anything I say or post.

actually I don't tell a person where I worship until they ask. when I hav eposted it was to invite all to look upon and that was only once.

yes she should avoid the mainstream christainity.

Roman Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant

she should be open to all faith and seek God

all christians are not from God

all churches are not from God

all denominations are not from God

here is why and it is a discussion within itself

Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That other Christ is here

so we all have to avoid Christianity

Jesus said

Mt24v4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


in christianity we have so many doctrines, denomination, divisions

avoid it

seek and ask the Lord and it shall be given.

[ozell]

Hi Zecryphon

I never ask her to practice anything I say or post.

actually I don't tell a person where I worship until they ask. when I hav eposted it was to invite all to look upon and that was only once.

yes she should avoid the mainstream christainity.

Roman Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant

she should be open to all faith and seek God

all christians are not from God

all churches are not from God

all denominations are not from God

here is why and it is a discussion within itself

Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That other Christ is here

so we all have to avoid Christianity

Jesus said

Mt24v4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


in christianity we have so many doctrines, denomination, divisions

avoid it

seek and ask the Lord and it shall be given.

a person should be open to all faith

this will give them the wisdom on that faith why not to join or why to join.

when you research Islam or buddahist you can make your own descion whether it right for you.

in christianity the same should apply'

check out the history of all 3 major christian faith, then checkout the doctrine.

most likely if God is with you

you will avoid them all.

because of what the bible says

and not what there doctrine or statement of faith is.

even on this forum there is many opinions or levelof understanding concerning God's word.

most of us think we aredoing it right,

I do!

[Zecryphon]

Hi Zecryphon

I never ask her to practice anything I say or post.

actually I don't tell a person where I worship until they ask. when I hav eposted it was to invite all to look upon and that was only once.

yes she should avoid the mainstream christainity.

Roman Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant

she should be open to all faith and seek God

all christians are not from God

all churches are not from God

all denominations are not from God

here is why and it is a discussion within itself

Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That other Christ is here

so we all have to avoid Christianity

Jesus said

Mt24v4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


in christianity we have so many doctrines, denomination, divisions

avoid it

seek and ask the Lord and it shall be given.
"yes she should avoid the mainstream christainity."

Roman Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant

she should be open to all faith and seek God"

Why should she avoid Christianity? What is it about Christianity that YOU don't like? She should not be open to all faiths, all faiths do not lead to God. In fact, all faiths that do not profess Christ as the way, the truth and the life will lead you to Hell.

"all christians are not from God"

We're not? Where did we come from then? The big bang? Oh I know! We evolved! LOL

"all churches are not from God"

Depends how you define a church now doesn't it?

"all denominations are not from God"

How did you come to this conclusion? Granted we're not talking about JW's and Mormons as Christians, right?

"here is why and it is a discussion within itself

Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That other Christ is here

so we all have to avoid Christianity"

The only person here that is preaching another gospel that runs contrary to the scriptures is you, oh and those in the universalist camp.

"Jesus said

Mt24v4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

Alright, people of the forum! Who's been going around claiming to be Christ and getting Ozell's knickers in a knot?

"in christianity we have so many doctrines, denomination, divisions

avoid it"

Oh yeah and that just isn't true about any other religion right? All religions suffer from that fatal flaw, even yours, whichever one that is.

[ozell]

"yes she should avoid the mainstream christainity."

Roman Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant

she should be open to all faith and seek God"

[QUOTE]Why should she avoid Christianity? What is it about Christianity that YOU don't like? She should not be open to all faiths, all faiths do not lead to God. In fact, all faiths that do not profess Christ as the way, the truth and the life will lead you to Hell.

Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

and Jesus said

Mt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you
Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Zecrypon the above verses are not hard to understand are they?


"all christians are not from God"

We're not? Where did we come from then? The big bang? Oh I know! We evolved! LOL

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

"all churches are not from God"

Depends how you define a church now doesn't it?

it depends on the truth!


all denominations are not from God"

How did you come to this conclusion? Granted we're not talking about JW's and Mormons as Christians, right?

the doctrine!

"here is why and it is a discussion within itself

Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That other Christ is here

so we all have to avoid Christianity"

The only person here that is preaching another gospel that runs contrary to the scriptures is you, oh and those in the universalist camp.

prove it!

"Jesus said

Mt24v4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

Alright, people of the forum! Who's been going around claiming to be Christ and getting Ozell's knickers in a knot?


Jms 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

"in christianity we have so many doctrines, denomination, divisions

avoid it"

Oh yeah and that just isn't true about any other religion right? All religions suffer from that fatal flaw, even yours, whichever one that is.

yea! we are men!
thank God he gave us the opportunity to repent when we sin or brake his commandments.

[MoNiCa4316]

Well, at service it was clear that Communion was symbolic only and that bread and wine were the symbols of the Lords flesh and blood. Standard teaching and practice for a non-denom.

What do Lutherans believe about Communion? (not to start a new discussion or anything...sorry..I just realized that I don't know, and I'm curious :P)

The thing that went on in the youth group lesson was something that the church would never approve of, had they known about it. Week to week the doctrine was Biblically sound, but once you started looking into what each individual pastor believed, we had over twenty on staff, you got the sense that not all of them were on the same page. The church spinning it's wheels for a long time as there was no senior pastor to lead the church in practice or doctrine. I got the sense that they were winging it.They went two years without a senior pastor and it showed. I was at that church for five years and when the senior pastor retired, I saw things start to go downhill, fast.

Definitely shows the importance of leadership :)

[ChinaRoses]

It's so strange though. More of the non-denominational churches in my area are starting to copy Saddleback Church. This church that my husband & I attended has it's grounds in Mennonite (most don't wear the caps) but have been raised Mennonite, all the leaders & staff are Mennonite, but it's attracting non-Mennonite people now by the droves. It's a conservative church, but very modern at the same time (technology). Casual dress, Purpose-Driven doctrine mostly. The pastor takes the bible literally, has Celebrate Recovery, but it just seems they're borrrowing heavily from Saddleback. There is no Starbucks, but after services, there is coffee, cocoa, & juice, cake. And he does occasionally wear Hawaiian shirts. He doesn't go for fluff, likes to keep everything simple due to his background. The church is large, but plain. People praise God openly.

[MoNiCa4316]

Hi sister

keep looking you will know when you have found the right church.

continue to ask God.

be very wary of the doctrine, that is the key.

Christianity consist of the big 3

Roman Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant

if you stay away from these 3 you will find the uncut word of God

seek and you will find
ask and it shall be given

stay clear away from the doctrines

Ozell, I don't know what church you go to, but why do you think that the three main types of Christianity are wrong? Doctrines in good Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic churches are Biblical, not made up. Are you saying that all Christians were wrong until your church came along? I don't know what church you go to, and I'm not attacking it...
But those who believe in Christ have the Holy Spirit, and we can trust Him that He's leading the Body of Christ in the right direction, and has been since the beginning.
Protestants, Orthodox, and Catholics all believe in Christ and He is guiding them too. He has not left us alone to figure out what the Bible says, He has given us the Holy Spirit, and to say that most of Christianity is wrong is to say that Christ's Church has failed.

check out the history of all 3 major christian faith, then checkout the doctrine.

most likely if God is with you

you will avoid them all.

'If God is with you'...if God is not with Protestants, Orthodox, or Catholics, how come there are so many strong followers of Christ in these churches, and 'the fruits of the Spirit'? And how can anyone begin to believe in Christ at all if God isn't with them...He is the one who gives us faith to begin with. If what you say is true, then it's a wonder that these people have accepted Christ at all...

God bless.

[Br0kenSunshyne]

I think I just prefer to stay away from any group or organization that focuses on tongues or demons or deliverance or whatever. I'm sure it has its place, but I see way too many Christians obsess over such things. I'd rather talk about Jesus. After all, CHRISTianity is all about CHRIST.

[MoNiCa4316]

It's so strange though. More of the non-denominational churches in my area are starting to copy Saddleback Church. This church that my husband & I attended has it's grounds in Mennonite (most don't wear the caps) but have been raised Mennonite, all the leaders & staff are Mennonite, but it's attracting non-Mennonite people now by the droves. It's a conservative church, but very modern at the same time (technology). Casual dress, Purpose-Driven doctrine mostly. The pastor takes the bible literally, has Celebrate Recovery, but it just seems they're borrrowing heavily from Saddleback. There is no Starbucks, but after services, there is coffee, cocoa, & juice, cake. And he does occasionally wear Hawaiian shirts. He doesn't go for fluff, likes to keep everything simple due to his background. The church is large, but plain. People praise God openly.

Do you like this type of church, or have you left it to find a new one?
There are different types of non denom churches out there, but I guess it does depend on the area... are you looking for a different type of non denom church, or perhaps for a denomination?
God bless.

[MoNiCa4316]

I think I just prefer to stay away from any group or organization that focuses on tongues or demons or deliverance or whatever. I'm sure it has its place, but I see way too many Christians obsess over such things. I'd rather talk about Jesus. After all, CHRISTianity is all about CHRIST.

:wave: That's true, there are Christians who obsess about stuff like that...I'd rather talk about Jesus too :) I pray in tongues sometimes and I like the charismatic style of worship but only if the focus remains on God and not on emotion, etc. If done correctly, it can actually bring a person closer to God. There are dangers in pretty much every church...some people get distracted by the gifts of the Spirit, etc, some are obsessed with tradition or with legalism...there are extremes in all types of churches. It's so important to keep our focus on God no matter what :)

[Br0kenSunshyne]

I don't know much about tongues from the Bible standpoint, but I know I have seen way too many people do stupid things that hurt other people and they say it's God.I ain't touchin tongues with a 50 foot pole. I'm not much of an emotional person cause I tend to stuff my emotions, but it's nice to meet you anyway! :d

[ChinaRoses]

Do you like this type of church, or have you left it to find a new one?
There are different types of non denom churches out there, but I guess it does depend on the area... are you looking for a different type of non denom church, or perhaps for a denomination?
God bless.
I'm not looking for a Pentecostal or AG type church, we've been to most other "denominational" churches in our area that seem a bit dry. We like this church because I respect the leadship & wouldn't mind tithing to this church.

[MoNiCa4316]

I don't know much about tongues from the Bible standpoint, but I know I have seen way too many people do stupid things that hurt other people and they say it's God.I ain't touchin tongues with a 50 foot pole. I'm not much of an emotional person cause I tend to stuff my emotions, but it's nice to meet you anyway! :d

That's alright, tongues is not for everyone :) and there are some people who fake it and say it's from God, but not all.
nice to meet you too.
God bless.

[MoNiCa4316]

I'm not looking for a Pentecostal or AG type church, we've been to most other "denominational" churches in our area that seem a bit dry. We like this church because I respect the leadship & wouldn't mind tithing to this church.

That's good :) I hope it goes well with the church. It took me a long time to find mine, lol... if you like it, it might be the church for you...pray about it too :)

[Zecryphon]

[quote=Zecryphon;38959241]"yes she should avoid the mainstream christainity."

Roman Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant

she should be open to all faith and seek God"



Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

and Jesus said

Mt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you
Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Zecrypon the above verses are not hard to understand are they?


"all christians are not from God"



1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

"all churches are not from God"



it depends on the truth!






the doctrine!

"here is why and it is a discussion within itself

Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That other Christ is here

so we all have to avoid Christianity"



prove it!

"Jesus said

Mt24v4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."




Jms 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

"in christianity we have so many doctrines, denomination, divisions

avoid it"



yea! we are men!
thank God he gave us the opportunity to repent when we sin or brake his commandments.



"Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

and Jesus said

Mt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you
Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Zecrypon the above verses are not hard to understand are they?"

Why do you assume I do not understand the verses? I understand them perfectly well. What I want to know is who you think is coming in here and preaching a gospel that is contrary to the one preached in the Bible? I want to know why you think the OP needs to avoid mainstream Christianity as if it were some type of plague. So far, you have not made that clear.


"all christians are not from God"


Quote:
We're not? Where did we come from then? The big bang? Oh I know! We evolved! LOL


"1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

Very good scripture to post considering that right now you are the one who looks like a false prophet trying to deceive many into avoiding Christianity without a good reason to do so. The reasons of numerous denominations and disagreement upon secondary points of doctrine just do not constitute a good reason for not being a Christian.


"all churches are not from God"


Quote:
Depends how you define a church now doesn't it?


"it depends on the truth!"

Calm down, calm down. Sheesh, a bit uptight today aren't we? So Ozell, just what is the truth that your statement depends upon?




Quote:
all denominations are not from God"
Quote:
How did you come to this conclusion? Granted we're not talking about JW's and Mormons as Christians, right?


"the doctrine!"

Could you be just a bit more specific here? "The doctrine!" can refer to numerous things. Which doctrine are you talking about?

""here is why and it is a discussion within itself"

I agree, it is a discussion within itself and one you apparently don't want to have given your evasiveness thus far.

"Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That other Christ is here

so we all have to avoid Christianity""

That scripture has to do with people preaching another Christ or a false gospel. You have not proven that Christianity teaches a false gospel or another Christ.


Quote:
The only person here that is preaching another gospel that runs contrary to the scriptures is you, oh and those in the universalist camp.


"prove it!"

From post # 37 of the "God's Grace Did Not Replace His Commandments Thread":

"notice work and salvation in the same verse.

WE must work out our salvation"

From post # 38 of the same thread:

"to overecome requires some type of Work on OUR part,

yes we have been down this road before and we probably will again.

what ever we do in life requires some type of work,

believing in Jesus requires work.

you have to hear his word

you have to read his word

you have to find and have a preacher.

work is required to accomplish this task of believing or having faith.

people say they believe in Jesus

I say why?

they say, because I believe

I say tell me some thing about this Jesus

tell me why I should believe in Him.

better yet show me in the bible why I should believe in him?

now the works of opening up the bible and finding the reason to believe has begun.

works are required, even if it is as simple as opening up the bible to read."

From post # 41 of the same thread:

"if you keep his commandment he will save you, that salvation is called eternal life, what must I do to get eternal life. Jesus said keep the commandments"

Looks like someone believes that one must do works to be saved and therefore denies Ephesians 2:8-9. The next time you challenge me to prove something, could you at least make it challenging?

"Jesus said

Mt24v4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."


Quote:
Alright, people of the forum! Who's been going around claiming to be Christ and getting Ozell's knickers in a knot?



Jms 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

"in christianity we have so many doctrines, denomination, divisions

avoid it"

Quote:
Oh yeah and that just isn't true about any other religion right? All religions suffer from that fatal flaw, even yours, whichever one that is.


"yea! we are men!
thank God he gave us the opportunity to repent when we sin or brake his commandments."

Okay.... and the reason God forgives you when you repent is what? Cuz you said you were sorry or because of faith in Christ? Is it your work He honors or your faith in Christ?

[Zecryphon]

That's alright, tongues is not for everyone :) and there are some people who fake it and say it's from God, but not all.
nice to meet you too.
God bless.
How can you tell if a person is faking it?

[ozell]

MoNiCa4316;38960806]Ozell, I don't know what church you go to, but why do you think that the three main types of Christianity are wrong? Doctrines in good Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic churches are Biblical, not made up. Are you saying that all Christians were wrong until your church came along? I don't know what church you go to, and I'm not attacking it...

Monica I know you and others are not attacking my church and I know there is no harm in your comments and I don't take it as such.

God's church was setup in the wilderness.

God church started in the beginning

God's church had People like adam and seth in it

Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.


show me in the bible the Catholic church or the protestant church, or the orthodox church.

what you will find is the church of God

started in the wilderness with the Israelites and Moses with Jesus leading them.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

I put some verses, where Jesus and paul warns us of those that come in the name of Jesus.

they did not warn us of islam, buddah, etc etc

we are warned of those that come in the name of Jesus

who are the big 3

Roman Catholic
Protestant
Orthodox

these 3 come in the name of Jesus

but those who believe in Christ have the Holy Spirit, and we can trust Him that He's leading the Body of Christ in the right direction, and has been since the beginning.
Protestants, Orthodox, and Catholics all believe in Christ and He is guiding them too. He has not left us alone to figure out what the Bible says, He has given us the Holy Spirit, and to say that most of Christianity is wrong is to say that Christ's Church has failed.[/QUOTE ]

if that is such, why did Jesus warn us about spirits

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2: Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

false christ are people coming in the name of a false Jesus.

what is the job of the holy spirit?

Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

If the big 3 have this truth why are they so divided?

when Jesus return Peter lets us know that Judgemet starts at the church

1Pt 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

we read where judgement start at God's house

now lets see some judgement on christians who thought they had the holy spirit.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

here you have christians confessing Jesus

saying to Jesus I have cast out devils in the name of Jesus, the apostles did this act also

and many wonderful works.

surely the holy spirit had to guide these christians.

these christians who are confessing Jesus belong to some christain church

why did the Lord tell them to depat from him ye worker of sin?.

what happened?


[QUOTE]'If God is with you'...if God is not with Protestants, Orthodox, or Catholics, how come there are so many strong followers of Christ in these churches, and 'the fruits of the Spirit'? And how can anyone begin to believe in Christ at all if God isn't with them...He is the one who gives us faith to begin with. If what you say is true, then it's a wonder that these people have accepted Christ at all...

followers according to who?

are they walking the way Jesus walked?
do they do the things that Jesus do?
do they really have the fruits of the spirit?

We have to hear about Jesus before we get the faith.

so now I go back to the verse I gave in another post

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

read the entire chapter

Paul has this here for a reason.

I had one thread that asked the question who doctrine or denomination is correct?

the big 3 faith

somebody is wrong

Thye Pope has already come out and said that the Roman catholic church is the only church.

is he right?

[MoNiCa4316]

How can you tell if a person is faking it?

Well..I only started speaking in tongues about a month ago and I've never been to a Pentecostal church, I just use it as a prayer language. I presently go to a non charismatic church. So I don't really know much about this.... I don't think I'm faking it, because it has brought me closer to God, and there are the 'fruits of the Spirit', and the words come by themselves. As to other people, well ultimately only God knows (as with any other 'spiritual experience'), but if there's an interpreter present you can look at the interpretation and decide if it's from God. It's sort of similar to judging prophesy, etc. You can test it by the 'fruits', or whether or not it comes true, or just based on the content...for example,

Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. (1 cor. 12:3)

That is why Paul said that only one or two people should speak in tongues at one time (in a church), so that they can be interpreted. I disagree with the way it's done in some Pentecostal churches, where everyone starts speaking at once. But many people also speak in tongues privately at home, as a prayer language...and it's usually possible to tell whether or not you are faking it.
Again, I don't know much about this.....I'm sure there are discussions on this topic in the Pentecostal/Charismatic forum :)

[ozell]

"Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

and Jesus said

Mt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you
Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Zecrypon the above verses are not hard to understand are they?"


[QUOTE]Why do you assume I do not understand the verses? I understand them perfectly well. What I want to know is who you think is coming in here and preaching a gospel that is contrary to the one preached in the Bible? I want to know why you think the OP needs to avoid mainstream Christianity as if it were some type of plague. So far, you have not made that clear.

if you read the verses it is very clear why I think this way.

I preach a gospel contrary to your teaching.

there are people on this site that I have never met or don't attend the bible class I attend. we are one and of like mind because we read the same words of the bible.

false doctrine will kill us. false prophet who come in the name of Jesus, will kill us. the second death.

will a false prophet with a false doctrine get a person in God's kingdom. NO!

there are doctrines out here that uses Jesus name but are not the truth.
------------------------------------------------
"all christians are not from God"


Quote:
We're not? Where did we come from then? The big bang? Oh I know! We evolved! LOL


"1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."


[QUOTE]Very good scripture to post considering that right now you are the one who looks like a false prophet trying to deceive many into avoiding Christianity without a good reason to do so. The reasons of numerous denominations and disagreement upon secondary points of doctrine just do not constitute a good reason for not being a Christian.

I did not tell you or anyone not to be a christians, again go ack and read what I put.

Jesus spoke well of people like you

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

you need to listen first and put the emotions away.

again Jesus spoke well of you

Mt 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

go back and read what I post.

If you feel that I am a false prophet, oh well!

but it is really your lack of understanding and your denominational doctrine.

---------------------------------------------------
"all churches are not from God"


Quote:
Depends how you define a church now doesn't it?


"it depends on the truth!"

Calm down, calm down. Sheesh, a bit uptight today aren't we? So Ozell, just what is the truth that your statement depends upon?

I'm calm brother, believe that!

Jn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

-----------------------------------------------------


Quote:
all denominations are not from God"
Quote:
How did you come to this conclusion? Granted we're not talking about JW's and Mormons as Christians, right?


"the doctrine!"

Could you be just a bit more specific here? "The doctrine!" can refer to numerous things. Which doctrine are you talking about?

Here is a easy one that all nations under the sun can figure out just by counting to 7.

1st day sunday vs 7th day sabbath

Lk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

------------------------------------------------------

""here is why and it is a discussion within itself"

I agree, it is a discussion within itself and one you apparently don't want to have given your evasiveness thus far.

I think all honest people on this site will say I don't run from a post.

that is your opinion and it is not being honest at this moment.
------------------------------------------------------
"Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That other Christ is here

so we all have to avoid Christianity""

That scripture has to do with people preaching another Christ or a false gospel. You have not proven that Christianity teaches a false gospel or another Christ.

read all the post that I put on this site, havent you notice they don't agree with the status quo.

read my post,you have proven that you don't,

-----------------------------------------------------

Quote:
The only person here that is preaching another gospel that runs contrary to the scriptures is you, oh and those in the universalist camp.


"prove it!"

From post # 37 of the "God's Grace Did Not Replace His Commandments Thread":

"notice work and salvation in the same verse.

WE must work out our salvation"

From post # 38 of the same thread:

"to overecome requires some type of Work on OUR part,

yes we have been down this road before and we probably will again.

what ever we do in life requires some type of work,

believing in Jesus requires work.

you have to hear his word

you have to read his word

you have to find and have a preacher.

work is required to accomplish this task of believing or having faith.

people say they believe in Jesus

I say why?

they say, because I believe

I say tell me some thing about this Jesus

tell me why I should believe in Him.

better yet show me in the bible why I should believe in him?

now the works of opening up the bible and finding the reason to believe has begun.

works are required, even if it is as simple as opening up the bible to read."

I'll post it again and you read it again, paul wrote


Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

peter said

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


James said

Jms 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jms 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

works are required!

the problem is what are the works that need to be done!

----------------------------------------------------

From post # 41 of the same thread:

"if you keep his commandment he will save you, that salvation is called eternal life, what must I do to get eternal life. Jesus said keep the commandments"

Looks like someone believes that one must do works to be saved and therefore denies Ephesians 2:8-9. The next time you challenge me to prove something, could you at least make it challenging?

eph2v8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

brother, what work is paul talking about?
the same paul said this in Phillipains

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

what works is Paul is talking about?

Paul also said
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

I don't need to challenge you, I understand
looks like we are at a stand still.

works vs no works
saved by grace vs saved by hope
said by the same apostles


someone lacks understanding

and its not me!

keep reading and ask God for understanding.
-----------------------------------------------------

"Jesus said

Mt24v4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."


Quote:
Alright, people of the forum! Who's been going around claiming to be Christ and getting Ozell's knickers in a knot?
that's funny ^_^ praise Jesus

------------------------------------------------------
Jms 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

"in christianity we have so many doctrines, denomination, divisions

avoid it"

Quote:
Oh yeah and that just isn't true about any other religion right? All religions suffer from that fatal flaw, even yours, whichever one that is.


Brother do you care about any other religon, I don't

I care about christians those who believe in Jesus,

I care about people even those that don't believe in Jesus.
concerning there faith, neither do I care or concern my self with there belief and I think most here feel the same way.

I understand when Jesus said

Deut 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

-----------------------------------------------------
"yea! we are men!
thank God he gave us the opportunity to repent when we sin or brake his commandments."

Okay.... and the reason God forgives you when you repent is what? Cuz you said you were sorry or because of faith in Christ? Is it your work He honors or your faith in Christ?

why not both?

Jms 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

the problem in these denominational churches is the preacher has not told the people what are the works that must be done.

[MoNiCa4316]

Monica I know you and others are not attacking my church and I know there is no harm in your comments and I don't take it as such.

:)

God's church was setup in the wilderness.

God church started in the beginning

God's church had People like adam and seth in it

Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.


show me in the bible the Catholic church or the protestant church, or the orthodox church.

what you will find is the church of God

But the Church of God is people; the followers of Christ. They can be Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, or whatever. The denominations are just parts of the Church, which is made up of all Christian believers...the labels don't matter. God looks at our hearts, not what label we go by.

I put some verses, where Jesus and paul warns us of those that come in the name of Jesus.

they did not warn us of islam, buddah, etc etc

we are warned of those that come in the name of Jesus

who are the big 3

Roman Catholic
Protestant
Orthodox

these 3 come in the name of Jesus

And so did the Apostles! Using your logic, I can say that the Apostles are false because they came in the name of Jesus. We are warned of people who come in His name but are actually of the devil. There are people who come in His name who are from God! Why can't Protestants,etc, be those people?
And we are warned about Islam, and Buddhism, etc, because we are told to believe that Christ is Lord, and these religions teach that He is a mere prophet or just a man.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2: Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God...

Yes, there are many false prophets, but why do you think that most Christians are false prophets?? Why them in particular? It says "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God"...I confess that! But I'm Protestant...so what am I, a false prophet? Am I not saying this by the Spirit of God? What I'm trying to say is that Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic Christians all pass this test, they don't fail it. That means that they are of God.

If the big 3 have this truth why are they so divided?

People are not perfect...we are not divided over the Truth or the gospel that Christ died for our salvation and rose again. We all believe that. We're divided over specific points of doctrine.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

But why do you conclude from all that that Protestants, Orthodox, and Catholic Christians are not doing God's will? :confused:

followers according to who?

Only God knows who is really His follower...we do not have the right to judge this. But when I said 'followers of Christ' I meant according to the Bible.

are they walking the way Jesus walked?
do they do the things that Jesus do?
do they really have the fruits of the spirit?

There are many Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic Christians who meet this criteria. Have you researched the early saints, for example? There are such people today as well.

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Can you really prove that Protestants, Orthodox, and Catholics are preaching a different gospel?

Thye Pope has already come out and said that the Roman catholic church is the only church.

is he right?

I am skeptical of anyone who comes and says that their church is the one true church.... I was kept back from Christianity for a while because Christians claimed that Jesus is the only way to life, and the only reason I began to believe this is because I felt Him tell me the same thing. If He tells me that the Catholic, etc, church is the one true church, then I'll believe.

What would you say the Church is? If Protestants, Orthodox, or Catholics are not part of it, who is? Personally I believe that they are all part of it.

[Zecryphon]

What do Lutherans believe about Communion? (not to start a new discussion or anything...sorry..I just realized that I don't know, and I'm curious :P)



Definitely shows the importance of leadership :)
"What do Lutherans believe about Communion? (not to start a new discussion or anything...sorry..I just realized that I don't know, and I'm curious :P)"

I can not speak for all Lutherans but the LCMS Lutherans believe in a real presence of Christ, in, with and under the elements of bread and wine. Reformed churches typically take the view promoted by Zwingli that Communion is strictly symbolic. We do not believe as the Catholics do that the bread and wine are changed into the actual flesh and blood of Christ.

Here is what the LCMS believes about the Sacrament of the Altar.

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/wa_communion.pdf

[Zecryphon]

[quote=Zecryphon;38963406][quote=ozell;38960070]
"Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

and Jesus said

Mt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you
Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Zecrypon the above verses are not hard to understand are they?"




if you read the verses it is very clear why I think this way.

I preach a gospel contrary to your teaching.

there are people on this site that I have never met or don't attend the bible class I attend. we are one and of like mind because we read the same words of the bible.

false doctrine will kill us. false prophet who come in the name of Jesus, will kill us. the second death.

will a false prophet with a false doctrine get a person in God's kingdom. NO!

there are doctrines out here that uses Jesus name but are not the truth.
------------------------------------------------
"all christians are not from God"


Quote:
We're not? Where did we come from then? The big bang? Oh I know! We evolved! LOL


"1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."




I did not tell you or anyone not to be a christians, again go ack and read what I put.

Jesus spoke well of people like you

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

you need to listen first and put the emotions away.

again Jesus spoke well of you

Mt 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

go back and read what I post.

If you feel that I am a false prophet, oh well!

but it is really your lack of understanding and your denominational doctrine.

---------------------------------------------------
"all churches are not from God"


Quote:
Depends how you define a church now doesn't it?


"it depends on the truth!"

Calm down, calm down. Sheesh, a bit uptight today aren't we? So Ozell, just what is the truth that your statement depends upon?

I'm calm brother, believe that!

Jn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

-----------------------------------------------------


Quote:
all denominations are not from God"
Quote:
How did you come to this conclusion? Granted we're not talking about JW's and Mormons as Christians, right?


"the doctrine!"

Could you be just a bit more specific here? "The doctrine!" can refer to numerous things. Which doctrine are you talking about?

Here is a easy one that all nations under the sun can figure out just by counting to 7.

1st day sunday vs 7th day sabbath

Lk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

------------------------------------------------------

""here is why and it is a discussion within itself"

I agree, it is a discussion within itself and one you apparently don't want to have given your evasiveness thus far.

I think all honest people on this site will say I don't run from a post.

that is your opinion and it is not being honest at this moment.
------------------------------------------------------
"Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That other Christ is here

so we all have to avoid Christianity""

That scripture has to do with people preaching another Christ or a false gospel. You have not proven that Christianity teaches a false gospel or another Christ.

read all the post that I put on this site, havent you notice they don't agree with the status quo.

read my post,you have proven that you don't,

-----------------------------------------------------

Quote:
The only person here that is preaching another gospel that runs contrary to the scriptures is you, oh and those in the universalist camp.


"prove it!"

From post # 37 of the "God's Grace Did Not Replace His Commandments Thread":

"notice work and salvation in the same verse.

WE must work out our salvation"

From post # 38 of the same thread:

"to overecome requires some type of Work on OUR part,

yes we have been down this road before and we probably will again.

what ever we do in life requires some type of work,

believing in Jesus requires work.

you have to hear his word

you have to read his word

you have to find and have a preacher.

work is required to accomplish this task of believing or having faith.

people say they believe in Jesus

I say why?

they say, because I believe

I say tell me some thing about this Jesus

tell me why I should believe in Him.

better yet show me in the bible why I should believe in him?

now the works of opening up the bible and finding the reason to believe has begun.

works are required, even if it is as simple as opening up the bible to read."

I'll post it again and you read it again, paul wrote


Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

peter said

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


James said

Jms 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jms 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

works are required!

the problem is what are the works that need to be done!

----------------------------------------------------

From post # 41 of the same thread:

"if you keep his commandment he will save you, that salvation is called eternal life, what must I do to get eternal life. Jesus said keep the commandments"

Looks like someone believes that one must do works to be saved and therefore denies Ephesians 2:8-9. The next time you challenge me to prove something, could you at least make it challenging?

eph2v8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

brother, what work is paul talking about?
the same paul said this in Phillipains

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

what works is Paul is talking about?

Paul also said
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

I don't need to challenge you, I understand
looks like we are at a stand still.

works vs no works
saved by grace vs saved by hope
said by the same apostles


someone lacks understanding

and its not me!

keep reading and ask God for understanding.
-----------------------------------------------------

"Jesus said

Mt24v4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."


Quote:
Alright, people of the forum! Who's been going around claiming to be Christ and getting Ozell's knickers in a knot?
that's funny ^_^ praise Jesus

------------------------------------------------------
Jms 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

"in christianity we have so many doctrines, denomination, divisions

avoid it"

Quote:
Oh yeah and that just isn't true about any other religion right? All religions suffer from that fatal flaw, even yours, whichever one that is.


Brother do you care about any other religon, I don't

I care about christians those who believe in Jesus,

I care about people even those that don't believe in Jesus.
concerning there faith, neither do I care or concern my self with there belief and I think most here feel the same way.

I understand when Jesus said

Deut 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

-----------------------------------------------------
"yea! we are men!
thank God he gave us the opportunity to repent when we sin or brake his commandments."

Okay.... and the reason God forgives you when you repent is what? Cuz you said you were sorry or because of faith in Christ? Is it your work He honors or your faith in Christ?

why not both?

Jms 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

the problem in these denominational churches is the preacher has not told the people what are the works that must be done.
"someone lacks understanding

and its not me!"

Wow! Not too full of pride now are ya? LOL

"keep reading and ask God for understanding."

Yeah, cuz I'm the one who doesn't understand! LOL
-----------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Oh yeah and that just isn't true about any other religion right? All religions suffer from that fatal flaw, even yours, whichever one that is.


"Brother do you care about any other religon, I don't"

I wouldn't say I care about them, but I do try and learn the basics of each one so I can show people why their faith in themselves is not enough to save them from the wrath to come from God.

"I care about christians those who believe in Jesus,

I care about people even those that don't believe in Jesus.
concerning there faith, neither do I care or concern my self with there belief and I think most here feel the same way."

You should care about their beliefs, at least to the extent of showing why their faith or belief in a works-based faith, will always fail. The scriptures are clear, we can not save ourselves. No matter what we do or say we can not do this. It is God from beginning to end who saves. He gets all the glory, we play no role in saving ourselves. There are a lot here who seem to promote a decision theology. I disagree with that theology.

Okay.... and the reason God forgives you when you repent is what? Cuz you said you were sorry or because of faith in Christ? Is it your work He honors or your faith in Christ?

"why not both?"

Because there is nothing you can do to earn favor with God. You need to have faith and you receive faith from God. Works without faith are like filthy rags to Him.

"Jms 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

the problem in these denominational churches is the preacher has not told the people what are the works that must be done."

There is no way for you to honestly make that claim, unless you have visited each church in each denomination and have attended long enough to know what the pastors are telling the congregants they must or must not do. There are no works that must be done to earn salvation. The works Christians do are a result of being saved. They are a way of showing God that we are thankful His son saved us from God's wrath and that we desire to live a life like Christ lived. Doing good to others. The motivation for that is not salvation, but in response to salvation. I think this is the part you don't understand. But I digress. Since you seem to know what we need to do to be saved, why don't you tell us all?

[MoNiCa4316]

"What do Lutherans believe about Communion? (not to start a new discussion or anything...sorry..I just realized that I don't know, and I'm curious :P)"

I can not speak for all Lutherans but the LCMS Lutherans believe in a real presence of Christ, in, with and under the elements of bread and wine. Reformed churches typically take the view promoted by Zwingli that Communion is strictly symbolic. We do not believe as the Catholics do that the bread and wine are changed into the actual flesh and blood of Christ.

Here is what the LCMS believes about the Sacrament of the Altar.

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/wa_communion.pdf

thanks for the reply :) I actually disagree with Zwingli, but also with the Catholics...I guess I'm still trying to figure it out. I do believe that God uses Communion and that the Holy Spirit is somehow involved in it to bring us closer to Him..and that potentially, it's more than just symbolic. Although even if you say that it's a symbol, you are still claiming that it somehow associates with the real body and blood of Christ... maybe it's the faith that is important when we take Communion. Personally, I have felt God's presence in a very special way when I take it at my (non denom) church. He did not say that we must understand it..He told us to obey.
Anyway.. :)

[Zecryphon]

[quote=Zecryphon;38963406][quote=ozell;38960070]
"Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

and Jesus said

Mt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you
Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Zecrypon the above verses are not hard to understand are they?"




if you read the verses it is very clear why I think this way.

I preach a gospel contrary to your teaching.

there are people on this site that I have never met or don't attend the bible class I attend. we are one and of like mind because we read the same words of the bible.

false doctrine will kill us. false prophet who come in the name of Jesus, will kill us. the second death.

will a false prophet with a false doctrine get a person in God's kingdom. NO!

there are doctrines out here that uses Jesus name but are not the truth.
------------------------------------------------
"all christians are not from God"


Quote:
We're not? Where did we come from then? The big bang? Oh I know! We evolved! LOL


"1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."




I did not tell you or anyone not to be a christians, again go ack and read what I put.

Jesus spoke well of people like you

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

you need to listen first and put the emotions away.

again Jesus spoke well of you

Mt 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

go back and read what I post.

If you feel that I am a false prophet, oh well!

but it is really your lack of understanding and your denominational doctrine.

---------------------------------------------------
"all churches are not from God"


Quote:
Depends how you define a church now doesn't it?


"it depends on the truth!"

Calm down, calm down. Sheesh, a bit uptight today aren't we? So Ozell, just what is the truth that your statement depends upon?

I'm calm brother, believe that!

Jn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

-----------------------------------------------------


Quote:
all denominations are not from God"
Quote:
How did you come to this conclusion? Granted we're not talking about JW's and Mormons as Christians, right?


"the doctrine!"

Could you be just a bit more specific here? "The doctrine!" can refer to numerous things. Which doctrine are you talking about?

Here is a easy one that all nations under the sun can figure out just by counting to 7.

1st day sunday vs 7th day sabbath

Lk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

------------------------------------------------------

""here is why and it is a discussion within itself"

I agree, it is a discussion within itself and one you apparently don't want to have given your evasiveness thus far.

I think all honest people on this site will say I don't run from a post.

that is your opinion and it is not being honest at this moment.
------------------------------------------------------
"Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That other Christ is here

so we all have to avoid Christianity""

That scripture has to do with people preaching another Christ or a false gospel. You have not proven that Christianity teaches a false gospel or another Christ.

read all the post that I put on this site, havent you notice they don't agree with the status quo.

read my post,you have proven that you don't,

-----------------------------------------------------

Quote:
The only person here that is preaching another gospel that runs contrary to the scriptures is you, oh and those in the universalist camp.


"prove it!"

From post # 37 of the "God's Grace Did Not Replace His Commandments Thread":

"notice work and salvation in the same verse.

WE must work out our salvation"

From post # 38 of the same thread:

"to overecome requires some type of Work on OUR part,

yes we have been down this road before and we probably will again.

what ever we do in life requires some type of work,

believing in Jesus requires work.

you have to hear his word

you have to read his word

you have to find and have a preacher.

work is required to accomplish this task of believing or having faith.

people say they believe in Jesus

I say why?

they say, because I believe

I say tell me some thing about this Jesus

tell me why I should believe in Him.

better yet show me in the bible why I should believe in him?

now the works of opening up the bible and finding the reason to believe has begun.

works are required, even if it is as simple as opening up the bible to read."

I'll post it again and you read it again, paul wrote


Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

peter said

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


James said

Jms 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jms 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

works are required!

the problem is what are the works that need to be done!

----------------------------------------------------

From post # 41 of the same thread:

"if you keep his commandment he will save you, that salvation is called eternal life, what must I do to get eternal life. Jesus said keep the commandments"

Looks like someone believes that one must do works to be saved and therefore denies Ephesians 2:8-9. The next time you challenge me to prove something, could you at least make it challenging?

eph2v8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

brother, what work is paul talking about?
the same paul said this in Phillipains

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

what works is Paul is talking about?

Paul also said
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

I don't need to challenge you, I understand
looks like we are at a stand still.

works vs no works
saved by grace vs saved by hope
said by the same apostles


someone lacks understanding

and its not me!

keep reading and ask God for understanding.
-----------------------------------------------------

"Jesus said

Mt24v4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."


Quote:
Alright, people of the forum! Who's been going around claiming to be Christ and getting Ozell's knickers in a knot?
that's funny ^_^ praise Jesus

------------------------------------------------------
Jms 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

"in christianity we have so many doctrines, denomination, divisions

avoid it"

Quote:
Oh yeah and that just isn't true about any other religion right? All religions suffer from that fatal flaw, even yours, whichever one that is.


Brother do you care about any other religon, I don't

I care about christians those who believe in Jesus,

I care about people even those that don't believe in Jesus.
concerning there faith, neither do I care or concern my self with there belief and I think most here feel the same way.

I understand when Jesus said

Deut 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

-----------------------------------------------------
"yea! we are men!
thank God he gave us the opportunity to repent when we sin or brake his commandments."

Okay.... and the reason God forgives you when you repent is what? Cuz you said you were sorry or because of faith in Christ? Is it your work He honors or your faith in Christ?

why not both?

Jms 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

the problem in these denominational churches is the preacher has not told the people what are the works that must be done.
"I did not tell you or anyone not to be a christians, again go ack and read what I put."

I did read what you wrote and what you wrote was for the OP to avoid mainstream Christianity in the big 3 denominations and seek out something else. Probably whatever it is you practice.

"Jesus spoke well of people like you

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

you need to listen first and put the emotions away."

Where have I been operating on emotion? Did you really think you were going to tell a Christian in a Christian forum to avoid Christianity and not at least be called on it?

"again Jesus spoke well of you

Mt 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

go back and read what I post."

I have read what you've posted and it's cute that you think you can do something to earn salvation.

"If you feel that I am a false prophet, oh well!"

Oh, I wouldn't call you a prophet, false teacher, yes.

"but it is really your lack of understanding and your denominational doctrine."

This from a guy who believes he has a hand in his own salvation! Priceless. LOL

---------------------------------------------------
"I'm calm brother, believe that!"

An exclamation point after a statement is not a sign of being calm or collected, brother.

----------------------------------------------------

""here is why and it is a discussion within itself"

I agree, it is a discussion within itself and one you apparently don't want to have given your evasiveness thus far.

"that is your opinion and it is not being honest at this moment."

It is my opinion and it has been formed by your actions thus far, therefore it is nothing but honest. But I understand why you have to try and say it is dishonest. Can't have yourself looking bad now, can you? LOL
------------------------------------------------------
"Paul said

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That other Christ is here

so we all have to avoid Christianity""

That scripture has to do with people preaching another Christ or a false gospel. You have not proven that Christianity teaches a false gospel or another Christ.

"read all the post that I put on this site, havent you notice they don't agree with the status quo."

I don't have time to read every novel-length post you feel compelled to thrust upon us.

"read my post,you have proven that you don't,"

What I've proven is that when pressed on what you believe and say, you would rather focus on me than on what you've written thus far.

-----------------------------------------------------

"the problem in these denominational churches is the preacher has not told the people what are the works that must be done."

And neither have you. This is an example of you being evasive. If people need to do works to be saved, which you clearly believe, in opposition to Ephesians 2:8-9, what works need to be done in order to obtain salvation?

[Nadiine]

To save the long repost, I'll just say I agree with Zech 100%

Performing works FOR salvation is a ludicrous thought; namely when our works are filthy rags - and namely when YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU TO EVEN WILL TO DO THEM - let alone accomplish them.
THen you need to ask, what MOTIVE do I do this good in?
FOR MYSELF. I'm doing "good" so I get something in return. ie. GOD OWES ME my salvation bcuz I'm working for it. As if it's a Wage we earn that God owes us for the work.
If you do "work" for your salvation, then God OWES it to you, it's no longer grace or a gift or faith - it's a commodity God has to give for your labor.
That's why it's false & contrary to scripture.

[MoNiCa4316]

I agree too :)

[jeremyloo]

Hi ozell,

I think the book of Galatians speaks very clearly on "salvation" by works and salvation through Jesus finished work...grace.

In this book, it speaks clearly on another gospel which is on works. Paul pronounced a double curse to those who preaches that. Gal 1:8-9.

Do not frustrate the grace of God (Gal 2:21)

Paul was not please with them and called them "foolish" (Gal 3:1). If you check with the actual Greek word for "foolish"...it is "stupid" in today's context.

Be bless

[Nadiine]

Hi ozell,

I think the book of Galatians speaks very clearly on "salvation" by works and salvation through Jesus finished work...grace.

In this book, it speaks clearly on another gospel which is on works. Paul pronounced a double curse to those who preaches that. Gal 1:8-9.

Do not frustrate the grace of God (Gal 2:21)

Paul was not please with them and called them "foolish" (Gal 3:1). If you check with the actual Greek word for "foolish"...it is "stupid" in today's context.

:thumbsup:
The whole book of Galations teaches how grace and law work (also Hebrews) - and the book of Corinthians displays how the new gentile believers thought they could just continue living in sin once they were under grace. (antinomianism).
Romans 6-7 expounds on willful sinning after conversion.
BOTH legalism and antinomianism are wrong; they are the extremes of both positions in the opposite direction.

The NT teaches being under the law of Christ (ie. the moral laws of the OT are still valid and binding - they're reiterated into the NT in great detail), and the GRACE covenant Jesus brought to relieve us of the penalty of the law and focus on LOVE not works.
Obedience is mandatory but out of love:
1 John 2:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=2&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
The man who says, "I know him,"
but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=3&verse=24&version=31&context=verse)
Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

1 John 5:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=5&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,


Motivation to serve and worship in newness - based on Love of God, not mandatory laws to follow as a list.
And the 2 highest laws are Love of God and love of neighbor as yourself - ALL THE LAW HANGS ON THOSE 2.
Romans 13:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=13&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be
, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

The moral laws are encompassed by LOVE; if we truly love them, we won't 'take their spouses for adultery', we won't beat them up, we won't cheat them, steal from them, lie about them, etc.

The issue is the motivation - reason for the good works.
It isn't about legalism (works FOR salvation) or antinomianism (I can live in sin bcuz I have grace) - both are obsolete - Christ has come and taken our penalty of sin, we obey Him but are not bound to works for our atonement/redemption.

[Cris413]

Absolutely Nadiine,

We obey because we love the Lord...not because we expect something in return...

The ability to serve and obey comes from what we've already received by our salvation through Christ Jesus...The Holy Spirit.

It is the Holy Spirit in us...according to His good will, pleasure and purpose.

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.