Signs and Wonders: What are they, What are they for?

[jeolmstead]

Signs and Wonders: What are they, What are they for?

John O.

[Tamara224]

IMO, signs and wonders are "signs" to confirm that God (especially Jesus) is who He says and also to build our faith. That's why they are supposed to accompany preaching of the Gospel... as confirmation.

[That is not to say, however, that they can't be counterfeited.]

[jeolmstead]

I think that much is said about signs and wonders in the western church. I noticed that most of what is said seems centered around obtaining something for ourselves, Healing, Prosperity, ect….

I certainly agree that God wants the best for His children. There however are other aspects of signs and wonders I wish to explore in this thread.

First I think that signs and wonders are by definition rare occurrences. (If miracles happen all the time they become normal occurrences and are not miracles)

Second there is a reason beyond the need of the person for them. A kingdom reason “Jesus said so that you know the Son of Man has the power to forgive sins rise…..” Without signs and wonders all we have for the world is another religious argument. I find it interesting that Jesus said “Go into all the world and make disciples, and these signs shall follow…..” Here signs and wonders are linked to evangelism.


Thoughts?


John O.

[jeolmstead]

Exactly my point, they confirm that the kingdom has indeed come.

John O.

[Tamara224]

I think it runs against a lot of popular opinion to say that miracles will build faith. It's popular to think that miracles come solely as a result of faith. I don't dispute that it is true that oft-times miracles will come from a request made in faith.

But, imo, if we think of miracles as only a product of faith, we rule out the possibility that miracles may be a means to bring a person to faith.

That is what Jesus was doing much of the time. He performed miracles in order to show that He was the Son of God. People saw the signs and wonders and believed He was who He said He was. Oftentimes, they didn't believe first and then get healed. They were healed and then believed.

[jeolmstead]

It also appears to me that there seems to be periods of time when signs and wonders fall upon the church. The frequency increases. I think we went through a period like that in the early eighties. Then for some reason they drop off. Why?

John O.

[Tamara224]

It also appears to me that there seems to be periods of time when signs and wonders fall upon the church. The frequency increases. I think we went through a period like that in the early eighties. Then for some reason they drop off. Why?

John O.


Maybe because we got too used to them...Old hat, expected, all that.

Or maybe it doesn't have anything to do with us. I dunno.

[jeolmstead]

I do know that we developed a sense of entitlement. The power was there, we expected it, we expected it to continue. I guess its human nature, I’m not sure however that there is a correlation between the two.

Like you, I don’t know either……

John O.

[jeolmstead]

bump

[Simon_Templar]

I think that signs and wonders serve as a witness to the unbelievers.

In scripture and in the history of the Church, many signs and wonders accompanied preaching the gospel to unbelievers in new places etc.

I think signs and wonders also serve as a confirmation to believers, as has been stated already in the thread.

In both ways, it is a witness to the kingdom.

Within the Church, I think the miraculous and signs and wonders, are for the purpose not only of strengthening our faith in the generic sense but also in the more specific senses of opening our eyes more to the majesty of God, and giving us more desire to know God.

For me specifically, the reasons I want to see signs and wonders is to confirm God's favor on me and what I am doing, and to simply see God's glory and power shown openly before people's eyes.

I am not saying that my reasons are necessarily right, but those are the honest reasons for me. Also, I do see times when I want to see miracles because I want to see people delivered from circumstances that they are in etc.

[MrSnow]

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man asked if he (or was it someone else) could show himself to his family so that they might believe. Jesus said that they have Moses and the Prophets. If they will not believe them, then seeing someone come back from the dead will not cause them to believe.

Based on that, I think that signs and wonders are not meant to build faith in someone, at least in the sense of going from NO faith to possessing full saving faith. Either they will believe based on testimony, or they will not.

I think that signs and wonders make people more culpable for disbelief. I think they also serve to strengthen already-existing faith.

But this isn't an area that I have studied extensively. If y'all have more info to show that my view point is skewed, show away.

[Simon_Templar]

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man asked if he (or was it someone else) could show himself to his family so that they might believe. Jesus said that they have Moses and the Prophets. If they will not believe them, then seeing someone come back from the dead will not cause them to believe.

Based on that, I think that signs and wonders are not meant to build faith in someone, at least in the sense of going from NO faith to possessing full saving faith. Either they will believe based on testimony, or they will not.

I think that signs and wonders make people more culpable for disbelief. I think they also serve to strengthen already-existing faith.

But this isn't an area that I have studied extensively. If y'all have more info to show that my view point is skewed, show away.
On the other hand Jesus said to the towns around the Galilee

"if the signs and wonders you have seen had been done in sodom and gomorrah, they would have repented, so on judgement day it will be worse for you than even for Sodom and Gomorrah" <-- paraphrased

[MrSnow]

Good verse. Thank you.

[lismore]

Signs and Wonders: What are they, What are they for?

John O.

God's compassion on hurting people, to show them that he cares.

One thing about love is that it is a two way process and is reciprocated both ways. The first love is the only love for turning wheels!

[lismore]

I think we went through a period like that in the early eighties. Then for some reason they drop off. Why?

John O.

There was a Charismatic Renewal in the 1980s, an explosion in house fellowships based on praise and worship, prayer for one another and a sense of urgency for evangelism.

The mainline churches felt threatened by these Charismatic House fellowships and burst them all up, one tactic was the book 'Rocking the Boat', a critique of the Charismatic House churches.

Within five years the house fellowships were burst up and people had either been turned into walking wounded or went into mainline denominations to go round the mullberry bush every week.

My take on it.

Look at the early church~ they met in homes. Look today at CHina where the Church is having explosive growth~ they are meeting in house churches. There is something tangible and real about fellowship in the home that the institutional church building setting cannot provide. Its reality versus sterility.

By the same token the church in the west is not yet mature and secure enough for another house fellowship explosion.

:wave:

[Simon_Templar]

There was a Charismatic Renewal in the 1980s, an explosion in house fellowships based on praise and worship, prayer for one another and a sense of urgency for evangelism.

The mainline churches felt threatened by these Charismatic House fellowships and burst them all up, one tactic was the book 'Rocking the Boat', a critique of the Charismatic House churches.

Within five years the house fellowships were burst up and people had either been turned into walking wounded or went into mainline denominations to go round the mullberry bush every week.

My take on it.

Look at the early church~ they met in homes. Look today at CHina where the Church is having explosive growth~ they are meeting in house churches. There is something tangible and real about fellowship in the home that the institutional church building setting cannot provide. Its reality versus sterility.

By the same token the church in the west is not yet mature and secure enough for another house fellowship explosion.

:wave:
I was raised in this movement that you are talking about. My childhood, up into my teen years were dominated by house meetings, and we saw a lot of stuff like deliverance, healings, all sorts of ministry etc.

In my experience what happened, almost every time was that the groups fell apart due to a combination of two things.

First, all sorts of people would come into the groups, often times the people who came in were unbalanced, and were not seeking truth. The result was that many of the people who came in ended up going off and starting their own groups once they felt either 'restricted' by or felt they had 'outgrown' the group. Usually they tried to start something of their own, lead a few people astray with them and went off the deep end. After which the people involved would straggle back to a Church, or they would just drift away in isolation basically having left the faith.

The other major cause of these groups falling apart was among the more 'grounded' 'mature' people.
They engaged in gossip and back bitting and almost invariably little factions formed which ended up turning on others in the group (usually the leader) and either splitting the group, or forcing the leader (or other faction) out of the group, after which the group basically withered and died.

Looking back, most of the people that I knew in those groups have either gone on to become discontent church hoppers, who are never satisfied with anything so they keep jumping to the next place, in hopes that they will find people more "on their level",

Or they have become totally isolated because they can't fellowship at any Church, because nothing lives up to "the good old days" so they sit home, by themselves, wasting away.

The third group are those who basically got involved in the deceptions and the false prophets and went totally off the deep end. Most of them ended up out of the faith, and/or with broken lives.

I saw and heard a lot of amazing things. People who went through those experiences often look back and say that they were new Christians back then and their faith was more pure. So God moved. They hadn't "learned" to doubt yet, and they hadn't "learned" churchiness which has corrupted their faith now. They chalk up that they don't see God moving to things like that.

I have a different perspective. I believe that they saw God move back in those days because they were immature, and God was making allowances for their immaturity. Much like we make allowances for a child. We don't expect them to be able to do everything right.

I think that as they went on, God expected them to grow and to move deeper into relationship with him, and thus necessarily to correct the basic issues that have to do with love. In most of the cases, I don't think people did that. They felt that they had already arrived and they became puffed up because they saw great things, so they thought much more of themselves than they should have and it lead to their downfall.

I find it really ironic that people from those groups so often equate, spiritual maturation with your faith being corrupted by too much knowledge and learning.

I don't think that God stopped moving because they learned to doubt, I think God stopped moving among them because they refused to grow in spiritual maturity.

It may simply be because these are the things that God is working with me on, so I see them a lot right now... but I believe from my experience that the two most important things to knowing God, and to growing in God are love and humility. Those are two things that I have seen very much lacking in the small groups and house churches movements back then, and even still today.

However, we shouldn't simply focus on the problems we see with things like that, (and I say this for myself mostly) we should allow those things to spur us on in our own quest, and inspire us to greater virtue.

[BenAdam]

I was raised in this movement that you are talking about. My childhood, up into my teen years were dominated by house meetings, and we saw a lot of stuff like deliverance, healings, all sorts of ministry etc.

In my experience what happened, almost every time was that the groups fell apart due to a combination of two things.

First, all sorts of people would come into the groups, often times the people who came in were unbalanced, and were not seeking truth. The result was that many of the people who came in ended up going off and starting their own groups once they felt either 'restricted' by or felt they had 'outgrown' the group. Usually they tried to start something of their own, lead a few people astray with them and went off the deep end. After which the people involved would straggle back to a Church, or they would just drift away in isolation basically having left the faith.

The other major cause of these groups falling apart was among the more 'grounded' 'mature' people.
They engaged in gossip and back bitting and almost invariably little factions formed which ended up turning on others in the group (usually the leader) and either splitting the group, or forcing the leader (or other faction) out of the group, after which the group basically withered and died.

Looking back, most of the people that I knew in those groups have either gone on to become discontent church hoppers, who are never satisfied with anything so they keep jumping to the next place, in hopes that they will find people more "on their level",

Or they have become totally isolated because they can't fellowship at any Church, because nothing lives up to "the good old days" so they sit home, by themselves, wasting away.

The third group are those who basically got involved in the deceptions and the false prophets and went totally off the deep end. Most of them ended up out of the faith, and/or with broken lives.

I saw and heard a lot of amazing things. People who went through those experiences often look back and say that they were new Christians back then and their faith was more pure. So God moved. They hadn't "learned" to doubt yet, and they hadn't "learned" churchiness which has corrupted their faith now. They chalk up that they don't see God moving to things like that.

I have a different perspective. I believe that they saw God move back in those days because they were immature, and God was making allowances for their immaturity. Much like we make allowances for a child. We don't expect them to be able to do everything right.

I think that as they went on, God expected them to grow and to move deeper into relationship with him, and thus necessarily to correct the basic issues that have to do with love. In most of the cases, I don't think people did that. They felt that they had already arrived and they became puffed up because they saw great things, so they thought much more of themselves than they should have and it lead to their downfall.

I find it really ironic that people from those groups so often equate, spiritual maturation with your faith being corrupted by too much knowledge and learning.

I don't think that God stopped moving because they learned to doubt, I think God stopped moving among them because they refused to grow in spiritual maturity.

It may simply be because these are the things that God is working with me on, so I see them a lot right now... but I believe from my experience that the two most important things to knowing God, and to growing in God are love and humility. Those are two things that I have seen very much lacking in the small groups and house churches movements back then, and even still today.

However, we shouldn't simply focus on the problems we see with things like that, (and I say this for myself mostly) we should allow those things to spur us on in our own quest, and inspire us to greater virtue.
You know, all these reasons scream the need for Apostolic oversight.

[Tamara224]

I think that as they went on, God expected them to grow and to move deeper into relationship with him, and thus necessarily to correct the basic issues that have to do with love. In most of the cases, I don't think people did that. They felt that they had already arrived and they became puffed up because they saw great things, so they thought much more of themselves than they should have and it lead to their downfall.

This mirrors some of my own experiences, to a large degree.

After having lots of issues with the "regular" churches, my family did house church on several different occassions. By family, I mean my extended family...grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins.

We found that after about a year or so, we'd hit a brick wall. For the most part, the problem was that people didn't want to give up worldly things and worldly attitudes. Instead of accepting instruction on living righteously, they began to gossip and backbite. They loved it when my dad taught about end times and studied Daniel and Revelation. But when he turned our attention to Romans 13...ooh boy, they didn't want to hear it.

Another issue with it was that no one really wanted to do anything. They expected to come every week and be passively fed - like they do at "regular church". There was no real concept of servanthood amongst the body. They came to be served, not to serve. And that, imo, is one of those things that is supposed to come with maturity and goes hand in hand with humility.

I still think house church is the ideal (at least for me). Unfortunately, the intimacy of house church, and the personal accountability one to another, is offputting to people who want to stay where they are spiritually. It's easier to go to a big church and get lost in the crowd, go home and pick apart the pastor's sermon over lunch, then turn on the game and forget about it.

[Mark2010]

Very well said.

[jgreene]

I think that signs and wonders are as much for a sign to the unbelievers as they are for a confirmation of God's power for believers.

Also, when the Word says "by His stripes we are healed," I believe that it indicates an unconditional agreement from God for every healing, period. The reason we don't see more miracles is because most of us don't have the faith necessary to receive a miracle. Truth hurts.

It does seem that as we grow closer to the closing of the age, the anointing for miracles will continue to increase. I think this outpouring is the beginning of what Jesus was describing when He said "greater works than these will you do."

[jeolmstead]

I think that signs and wonders are as much for a sign to the unbelievers as they are for a confirmation of God's power for believers.

Also, when the Word says "by His stripes we are healed," I believe that it indicates an unconditional agreement from God for every healing, period. The reason we don't see more miracles is because most of us don't have the faith necessary to receive a miracle. Truth hurts.

It does seem that as we grow closer to the closing of the age, the anointing for miracles will continue to increase. I think this outpouring is the beginning of what Jesus was describing when He said "greater works than these will you do."
Personally, I do not believe that Isa 53:3 has anything to do with physical healing.

Isaiah 53:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=53&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

It is common for biblical writers to state the same thought multiple times for effect.

1. wounded for our transgressions (this is about sin)

2. bruised for our iniquities (again about sin)

3. the chastisement of our peace was upon Him (the punishment for our sin)

4. by his stripes we are healed (what is healed?, what is the subject of this scripture up to this point?, This is not about physical healing)

Peter bears this out

1 Peter 2:24

24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

This chapter is not about physical healing either.


You say the “Truth hurts” (referring to people's lack of faith)


I would say that a lack of understanding of the truth hurts more.


In any event, we do not debate these issues in the non-wof forum.



John O.

[lismore]

Signs and Wonders: What are they, What are they for?

John O.

They are acts of compassion from God for people.

Mark 1:
40 A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Whenever I am told of a sign or manifestation I ask what purpose it serves.

The answer goes a long way towards confirming if the thing is genuinely from God.

God Bless You:wave:

[Mathetes the kerux]

Signs and Wonders: What are they, What are they for?

John O.
Confirmation of the message and edification of the Church . . . and above all the glory of God.