clergy to population ratio???

[gtsecc]

This has been brought up in other threads.
What does it look like out there?

Our city population proper is about: 107,000
Episcopal Churches in the city proper: 8
Bishops: 4
Priests: 22
Deacons: 8

[IowaLutheran]

My city has 85,000 (120,000 if you include surrounding towns)

Episcopal churches: 3
Priests: 2
Deacons: 3

Its no wonder I'm a Lutheran - in that same metro area there are 23 Lutheran churches - most ELCA or Missouri Synod, with one Wisconsin Synod and one that broke away from ELCA to become aligned with other breakaway churches. The local Episcopal church without a priest has a retired Lutheran pastor serving them.

[Albion]

What does it look like out there?

For the nearest city of significant size, the metropolitan area population is about: 200,000
Episcopal Churches in the metro area: 8
Anglican Churches in the metro area: 3
Bishops: 2
Priests: 12
Deacons: unknown

[AngCath]

Sewanee is atypical (obviously) but it has about 2000 people, 1 parish on the domain, 1 just off of it, an unknown amount of priests (a few dozen including the seminary, the university, the parish, etc.), currently just a few deacons, and no permanent bishops.

The city I come from: Corpus Christi has about 250,000 people, 6 churches, 8 priests, 0 deacons, 0 bishops.

[norbie]

Looking at the above reply's, there is just not enough clergy to care for the disciples. So it is more important to gently let them know not to get involved in administration and small 'innerchurch' groups.
This small number of clergy realy have only ONE job to do now:preach: to spiritualy feed the disceiples so we can go out and give wittness to Christ.

[Albion]

Sewanee is atypical (obviously) but it has about 2000 people, 1 parish on the domain, 1 just off of it, an unknown amount of priests (a few dozen including the seminary, the university, the parish, etc.), currently just a few deacons, and no permanent bishops.


And less than 10 miles away is the Cathedral of the Episcopal Missionary Church with a resident bishop and other clergy.

[AngCath]

And less than 10 miles away is the Cathedral of the Episcopal Missionary Church with a resident bishop and other clergy.
I hate to say it (I usually refrain from negative speech), but that cathedral is the result of nothing more than a small group of people who got mad at Sewanee and the Episcopal Church.

[Albion]

I hate to say it (I usually refrain from negative speech), but that cathedral is the result of nothing more than a small group of people who got mad at Sewanee and the Episcopal Church.

Yes, but just between us two people who usually refrain from negative speech, ECUSA is nothing but a small group of people who got mad at the Anglican Commuion, if truth be told. And the "small group" that is the Episcopal Missionary Church at least is growing and has valid bishops, orders, and sacraments--not an insignificant consideration for anyone who thinks of himself as "Catholic."

BTW, how was the annual porno film festival at Sewanee University this year?

[AngCath]

BTW, how was the annual porno film festival at Sewanee University this year

That kind of question has no place here.

[No Swansong]

Since I know very little about Sewanee, I would have to ask what the comment was in reference to? Do they have a history of showing pornographic movies?

[No Swansong]

AngCath perhaps you would like to share something about the founding of the EMC Cathedral? What specifically led them to be formed? Was it truly just a matter of a few people getting mad at Sewanee, or was there some more significant issue involved?

[pmcleanj]

Looking at the above reply's, there is just not enough clergy to care for the disciples. So it is more important to gently let them know not to get involved in administration and small 'innerchurch' groups.
This small number of clergy realy have only ONE job to do now to spiritualy feed the disceiples so we can go out and give wittness to Christ.
I believe this is a very powerful observation (one I hope the foregoing mild sectarian bicker doesn't distract from). We absolutely cannot rely on a class of professional Christians to be doing all the work of the Church, or even to "administer" the workers.

What do we do, as lay-people, to force our priests into those inappropriate roles? I think, that many of my Christian brothers and sisters like being disempowered. I think that many vestries feel that they have hired their incumbent to do "run" the parish; and that they encourage, or even direct their rector to do those things.

In your parish, is the congregation largely on-board with the idea of lay empowerment? I suspect lay administrators and lay leaders are often met with the perception that their ministry is a "make-do" solution when the priest is unavailable or overworked, rather than the preferred solution.

[Albion]

Since I know very little about Sewanee, I would have to ask what the comment was in reference to? Do they have a history of showing pornographic movies?

Here's a quick runthrough. After the first of the Continuing Anglican churches were founded, there were still conservatives in ECUSA who thought that they could 'fight the good fight' to 'recapture the soul' of the Church without leaving to form another church body. They tried for a few years, with conventions, then a "Missionary Synod" of supporting clergy and parishes, but they of course didn't stem the tide. Significantly, though, they were led (unlike the case of the older Continuing Churches) by a bishop OF The Episcopal Church. There's no arguing Apostolic Succession in this case at least.

But in the early 1990's, it was decided that it was necessary to establish a separate church jurisdiction, i.e. the Episcopal Missionary Church in order to minister to all the laymen who were leaving ECUSA (aka TEC) while they were trying to stay in it. It was hoped that since its bishop and priests were not men ordained or consecrated to the episcopalt AFTER leaving ECUSA, that the new church would be more favorably received by Episcopalians than some did with the older Continuing churches.

One of the early clergy converts to the EMC was the Chaplain at Sewanee, the ECUSA seminary in Tennessee, who gained national attention for voicing his outrage at the annual porn film festival that Sewanee held for seminarians. Anglican publications discussed the details, and the seminary indicated no willingness to apologize for it or to reassess its decision to hold the festival. I guess it still is held, judging from AngCath's reaction, but I haven't read anything about it lately.

Anyway, the Chaplain, Fr. William Millsaps, established a new parish six or ten miles away from campus. After the retirement of the presiding bishop, he was elected to be the successor, and his church--a very nice one, BTW, certainly worthy of mention--became the Cathedral Church for the EMC.

[karen freeinchristman]

As there has been a report made regarding the post with the question about Sewanee and the porn films, I am requesting that there be no further discussion of that issue. Any further posts discussing that issue will be deleted until the report has been settled, and then may or may not be undeleted, depending on the outcome. Thank you for your compliance.

[AngCath]

Thank you, Karen.

[AngCath]

What do we do, as lay-people, to force our priests into those inappropriate roles? I think, that many of my Christian brothers and sisters like being disempowered. I think that many vestries feel that they have hired their incumbent to do "run" the parish; and that they encourage, or even direct their rector to do those things.

In your parish, is the congregation largely on-board with the idea of lay empowerment? I suspect lay administrators and lay leaders are often met with the perception that their ministry is a "make-do" solution when the priest is unavailable or overworked, rather than the preferred solution.

This not only seems accurate from the parishes I've belonged to, but (thankfully) is something we are aware of in seminary and are doing are best to approach that so that we can come out of here knowing how to best to equip others for ministry.

[Albion]

We absolutely cannot rely on a class of professional Christians to be doing all the work of the Church, or even to "administer" the workers.

What do we do, as lay-people, to force our priests into those inappropriate roles? I think, that many of my Christian brothers and sisters like being disempowered. I think that many vestries feel that they have hired their incumbent to do "run" the parish; and that they encourage, or even direct their rector to do those things.

In your parish, is the congregation largely on-board with the idea of lay empowerment?

You're probably 100% correct that this is a tendency in many parishes. When I read what you wrote, I naturally thought about about all the parishes I have been connected with over the years. In most of them the situation was the opposite, i.e. vestries that tried to tie the hands of the rector, micro-manage everything he did, and challenge him on even the smallest details concerning the worship services. I am wondering, therefore, if in some parishes it is this way while in some it is the other.

I have heard clergy talk as thought that's the case, that there is no overall pattern, just a parish to parish variance like we take for granted with the differences in size, wealth, ceremony, and so on. And I have the hunch that there may be many parishes in which there are underused or disempowered laypersons in the parish itself in which the vestry is controlled by a handful of "regulars" who are anything but that. IOW, this may be just a problem of human nature and not of church policy.

[Inside Edge]

In your parish, is the congregation largely on-board with the idea of lay empowerment? I suspect lay administrators and lay leaders are often met with the perception that their ministry is a "make-do" solution when the priest is unavailable or overworked, rather than the preferred solution.
In the 3 parishes I have been involved in, I've seen this and the opposite. In my first, this description was for the most part accurate. The priest was expected to manage just about everything, although he was pretty good at not letting it get so far as to burn him out (or what have you). That church was near-dead: there was very little outreach, almost no pastoral care from within the congregation, no sense of community. We (my wife and I) attended (about 3 of 4 Sundays a month) for almost a year and the only people who spoke to use were the People's Warden and the Priest (one occasion each). The Priest wasn't much to try and fight that trend, and seemed ok with shrugging his shoulders at the status quo.

The next parish was the opposite. The Priest, like many, is a workaholic, but in an enthusiastic sense. There was an active mission to empower the laity and the "workaholic efforts" were always in that context. The church was alive, welcoming, had a high proportion of involved, regular members and even the less-involved seemed much more "connected." That is to say, it felt like if you weren't "doing" anything at the moment, you were really only "waiting," and it was only a matter of time before you were moved to contribute in some way.

My current parish is somewhat like one of Albion's descriptions: And I have the hunch that there may be many parishes in which there are underused or disempowered laypersons in the parish itself in which the vestry is controlled by a handful of "regulars" who are anything but that.
The priest (who has just left the parish) was constantly empowering the laypeople, encouraging a balanced and involved approach. But there are sizeable groups which one could call complacent and content with being dis-empowered, which led to a very high workload for the priest and deacons. And what involvement/control/leadership does exist is largely by a select group of "regulars," some of which are on Parish Council but I have yet to see at a meeting (I am on it as well). The church does not feel "dead" like the one in the first example, but it certainly feels like there's some sort of active, involved old-guard or inner circle versus 'the rest' who don't need to do anything. As an example, recent events have revealed that most of the congregation don't even know how to voice greivances or make requests for changes or who to talk to regarding such things. Most are completey unaware of some of he basic lines of communication or procedure.

I think Albion's right, in that it may just be a fact of human nature. However, I think church leadership or policy can have a lot of influence in developing a more healthy, lay-empowered church. In my experience, such churches are the most successful and spiritually strongest.

[pmcleanj]

... In most of them the situation was the opposite, i.e. vestries that tried to tie the hands of the rector, micro-manage everything he did, and challenge him on even the smallest details concerning the worship services. I am wondering, therefore, if in some parishes it is this way while in some it is the other.

I have heard clergy talk as thought that's the case, that there is no overall pattern, just a parish to parish variance like we take for granted with the differences in size, wealth, ceremony, and so on. And I have the hunch that there may be many parishes in which there are underused or disempowered laypersons in the parish itself in which the vestry is controlled by a handful of "regulars" who are anything but that. IOW, this may be just a problem of human nature and not of church policy.

I'm sure you're right that this is human nature, and I think the two vestry behaviours are not only equally common, but indeed are quite capable of co-existing, and come from a similar motive.

It is, alas, very Anglican, to want to tell the priest what he should be doing and how -- and largely, what he should be doing is apparently "everything" and how he should be doing it is "my way". But the very people who want to tell the priest what to do, do not want to take the responsibility for those decisions. Bossing someone else around becomes the alternative to taking any action themselves.

[pmcleanj]

This not only seems accurate from the parishes I've belonged to, but (thankfully) is something we are aware of in seminary and are doing are best to approach that so that we can come out of here knowing how to best to equip others for ministry.I'd be fascinated to know what techniques or perspectives you're learning to address this trend

[karen freeinchristman]

My course is big on collaborative ministry. It is an underlying thing throughout, but especially next year in the final term, we will be looking a lot more closely at practical ways of working collaboratively.

[No Swansong]

Sorry Karen, didn't mean to do bad things.

[norbie]

In our parish and deanery as fare as I can see it is the Priest who takes over. And here is the problem: he/she doesn't have much choice if something have to be done. People do criticise - but wenn it comes to 'doing' not many are there. So it is the old catch 22 situation: if you wan't something done, do it yourself. So what is the solution? Maybe better training for Layity? Maybe more apprisal and positive encouragement? But on the other side, ones the Priest got his/her foot in - the layety let go with the sad thought 'well if he/she knows better, let them do it.' So our human nature does come into it.
But this kind of things make the spiritual outreach suffer, I think.
An other question arise here, do other parishes have 'elders' elected for input in spiritual matters?

[Albion]

But the very people who want to tell the priest what to do, do not want to take the responsibility for those decisions. Bossing someone else around becomes the alternative to taking any action themselves.


You're very perceptive. :thumbsup:

[No Swansong]

Sorry Karen, didn't mean to do bad things.
This comment was made while on the influence of mind altering medications. I am not sure what it is in reference to but if I was inappropriate in any way please accept my apologies.

[karen freeinchristman]

This comment was made while on the influence of mind altering medications. I am not sure what it is in reference to but if I was inappropriate in any way please accept my apologies.
That's ok, John. We understand. I pray the Lord stays especially close to you in those times. :prayer: