Left Behind Books

[TheKingOfImmortality]

I was just wondering what your thoughts were on the Left Behind Books?

[BigNorsk]

Completely fictional. Not a very good representation of biblical theology. It would be somewhat like some movies that say based on a true story that have only a general basis in some incident.

Sad things is many seem to be getting their understanding of the bible from fiction. I meet some people who seem to think the Left Behind series is scripture and the Bible is fiction.

Marv

[kobuk]

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[Project 86]

I was just wondering what your thoughts were on the Left Behind Books?

I believe it is fiction with a lot of liberty thrown in. That said I'm a pretrib dispensationalist so the main points of the books and movies I believe are very biblically sound.

[Vambram]

I believe it is fiction with a lot of liberty thrown in. That said I'm a pretrib dispensationalist so the main points of the books and movies I believe are very biblically sound.
I agree, Project 86. Those are my feelings and thoughts about the Left Behind series of novels, as well.

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

I am not surprised that Kobuk is hating on something else again. Newsflash for you there, man, its a fictional series of novels based upon end times prophecy. Any one who bases their beliefs upon fictional novels instead of the inspired, inerrant word of God clearly has made a serious choice of error as to what to believe. The authors of the Left Behind books know that their books are not inspired and not inerrant. They never claimed that their books are otherwise anything but fiction based upon interpretations of prophecy. So, until you get a direct prophetic line from Yashua as HIS oracle here on earth, please stop hating on fictional novels based upon prophecy.
I wonder whats the next thing that your judgmental opinions will come crashing down upon? I wish you could just simply relax, and stop being so judgmental.

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

The only problem that I find with your point of view about all of this, Kobuk, is that you are presuming that the writers of the Left Behind books are even trying to attempt to add to the Scriptures or that their novels even become close to being considered Scripture.
That appears to be a very big presumption to me that you are making. Otherwise, I have no real problems with discussing the pros and cons of the novels. Lets just not tell everyone that they ought not read them merely cause they are fictional novels about possible end times events. We can have good and honest feelings about these novels. But it is important to remember that these novels are merely fictionalized stories that are attempting to interpret and tell stories about the Last Days prophecies in the Bible.

[kobuk]

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[BigNorsk]

The authors of the Left Behind Series while calling them fiction what they mean is the specific things that happen are fiction. The authors clearly believe the books are an accurate portrayal of biblical doctrine and the end times.

In effect, they are more than fiction. More like fables or parables used to teach truth than true made up from the ground floor fiction.

And that's quite a difference.

But it can make people stop and think a bit if they tell you all the "truths" they have learned and you ask them what section of the bookstore they found it in and it's the fiction section.

There have been other recent fictional works with some supposed truths mixed in that many hold up as amazing in what they teach and people are indeed using them to establish their understanding.

It's nothing new, simply study what most people believe about Satan and Hell or for that matter angels and you find the same thing. Part of some book or artwork or something and after awhile accepted as fact by many.

Very difficult once it really becomes a part of them to change it too. It's the whole folk religion thing. Instilled deeply, strongly believed, can't necessarily even point to why they "know" it, just they are very certain they are correct.

If the Left Behind series was pure fiction it would be less dangerous but it isn't treated that way, it's more like everything is true but the exact events haven't or might not take place.

Marv

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

When reading and enjoying the Left Behind series of books, this independent baptist fundamentalist has no problems applying true fundamentalists principles to those novels, because I am a true fundamentalist.

[annie1speed]

Fiction in gospel clothing. I've never been one for 'Chrsitian Fiction'. Too many liberties are taken, and the truth gets distorted. And gullible people wind up letting someone else do their thinking for them.

Annie

[Project 86]

When reading and enjoying the Left Behind series of books, this independent baptist fundamentalist has no problems applying true fundamentalists principles to those novels, because I am a true fundamentalist.

Preach it fellow IFB brother! :preach:

;)

[FreeinChrist]

I liked the Left Behind series as a fiction from a pretrib dispie point of view.

But then, I am pretrib and a dispie. :)

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

Well said..

Don't ever let any of our resident trolls talk you out of or haze you out of your biblical discernment. ;)
I feel like I am banging my head up against a wall here, but let me try one more time.
Use spiritual and Biblical discernment while reading the Left Behind books, just like you would while enjoying any other work of fiction, and you won't be a gullible person. Also, let me ask this. What is better to read, Christian fiction, or the fictional novels written by Stephen King, Tom Clancy, and John Grisham, or even J.K. Rowling?

[Iosias]

I was just wondering what your thoughts were on the Left Behind Books?

They are based upon a false eschatology :)

[kobuk]

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[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

Wrong, it is not well said, instead it is poorly said because it is dangerous to presume and assume that your interpretation of prophetic scriptures is more correct than anyone else's.
Also, Kobuk is attacking Jerry Falwell yet again, and I am sick and tired of him attacking one of the stalwarts of Fundamentalism especially when Falwell is now in Heaven and unable to defend himself from the attacks of Kobuk.
Kobuk, please restrain yourself from attacking someone whom is now in Heaven, and whom has served Yashua faithfully and loyally for the vast majority of all of his Christian life. You have already created one thread that is full of libelous attacks against stalwarts of Fundamentalism, please do not hijack this thread about the Left Behind books.

[Iosias]

Wrong, it is not well said, instead it is poorly said because it is dangerous to presume and assume that your interpretation of prophetic scriptures is more correct than anyone else's.

The underlying theology of Left Behind is premillennial dispensationalism which is so riddled with errors and presuppositions it is suprising that people still actually take it seriously. It rests upon false assumptions.

The Pauline Eschatology and Chiliasm (http://www.biblicaltheology.org/paulchiliasm.pdf)
The Second Coming of Our Lord and the Millennium (http://www.biblicaltheology.org/scolm.pdf)
Eschatology of the New Testament (http://www.biblicaltheology.org/ent.pdf)

[Vambram]

and that is the opinion of people who disagree with premillenial escahatology.

[Iosias]

and that is the opinion of people who disagree with premillenial escahatology.

It is the historic teaching of the Church.

The Athanasian Creed and the Early Church: Clearly Amillennial (http://members.aol.com/twarren19/athacreed.html)

The premillennialist misinterprets the Old Testament.

The Premillennial Deception: Chiliasm Examined in Light of Scripture (http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/milenium.htm)
Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical? (http://reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/rapture.htm)
Matthew 24 and the Great Tribulation (http://reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/Tribulation.htm)

[annie1speed]

That's Tom Clancy and John Grisham. And yes, I'd rather read them any day over Christian fiction. With them there is not much confusion between their books' events and my real life - at least until 9-11 for Clancy. King and Rowling I have never cared to read.

Annie

[Vambram]

It is the historic teaching of the Church.

The Athanasian Creed and the Early Church: Clearly Amillennial (http://members.aol.com/twarren19/athacreed.html)


Just because segments of the early church and the Athanasianists were amillennial does not mean that they were correct.

The premillennialist misinterprets the Old Testament.



Clearly, I disagree. Instead, I say that the premillennialist correctly interprets the Old Testament by using the prophecies in the New Testament concerning the Last Days to interpret the similar prophecies in the Old Testament.

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

No, Kobuk, what I reject is your extremely narrow minded definition of what a Fundamentalist is.

I have been, and I am a Fundamentalist ever since Yashua saved me from my sins over 29 years ago, and I refuse to allow Fundamentalism to be defined by the extremely narrow minded definition you use.
For you to compare Falwell and LaHaye to the unsaved and wicked Scribes and Pharisees is nothing short of slanderous insults that I shall not allow to stand without rebuke.
I rebuke your comparisons and the insults that your comparisons make.

[Iosias]

Clearly, I disagree. Instead, I say that the premillennialist correctly interprets the Old Testament by using the prophecies in the New Testament concerning the Last Days to interpret the similar prophecies in the Old Testament.

What do you do then when OT prophesies are taught to have been fulfilled in the NT?

[Vambram]

What do you do then when OT prophesies are taught to have been fulfilled in the NT?
It is indeed true that the prophecies of the suffering Messiah were fulfilled by Christ. There is no doubt about that. However, there are also many prophecies in the Old Testament of the Messiah as the King of kings, and the prophecies of promised kingdom to Israel are best understood by the similar prophecies in the New Testament pointing to the future, and a literal reign of Christ here on this earth after HE returns at His Second Coming.

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

I have read the Left Behind books. Granted, my memory is far from perfect, ;) but where in those books do the authors write that a character which has taken the mark of the beast upon himself is later, after that, born-again finding salvation and forgiveness of Sin?

[kobuk]

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[FreeinChrist]

You reject then the following two requirements to post here.

1] Exposes and separates from all ecclesiastical denial of that Faith, compromise with error, and apostasy from the Truth

2] Earnestly contends for the Faith once delivered.

http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/tim_lahaye.html

http://www.reformation.org/left-behind-by-jesuits.html

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1818.cfm

This is the Fundamentalist Forum and we deal with "compromise with error". This is part of "earnestly contends for the Faith once delivered". Yahshua dealt with the Scribes and Pharisees. Paul dealt with Alexander the Coppersmith and MANY others.

Christiabity is being destroyed from within by false prophets and false teachers. Lahaye and Falwell are very closely linked together and with Sung Myung Moon.

Apologetics does not involve any looking at men's very private personal lives. So i've not done that. When Christianity gets hijacked by famous Televangelists, that creates a VERY valid legitimate concern. They are stepping out into the public arena and setting up their positions on Scripture. That's where i address them.

Yahshua said to "beware". That's apologetics at it's core. Defending against false messiah's like Moon being a prime example.

http://www.geocities.com/craigmaxim/?200726




Libertytothecaptives is such a joke of a site, I don't take it seriously or anyone who promotes it. Same with cuttingedge - when I see quotes from it, I think, "pul-lease!"

[Vambram]

Libertytothecaptives is such a joke of a site, I don't take it seriously or anyone who promotes it. Same with cuttingedge - when I see quotes from it, I think, "pul-lease!"
Thank you, FreeinChrist, I am glad that I am not the only one who doubts the authenticity of Kobuk's sources. :)

[kobuk]

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[FreeinChrist]

I'm not impressed with it much. libertytothecaptives is absolutely pathetic IMHO.

[Vambram]

If you ever actually read the links i've provided instead of not reading them, you would know the answer to the above questions and also have had no reason to keep on reporting my comments to the moderators.

What you are doing is stiffling discussions while IGNORING the supporting materials presented fair and square.

Recently, i had posted great fresh info, only to see you log into the Forum and spend only just enough time to again attack our rights here to discuss LEGITIMATE issues concerning the topic being discussed.

Fundamentalist don't report on each other. They act civil and agree to disagree after presenting their positions. Hot emotions are an illegal debate tactic. Babies learn that basic tactic very early.

I am not attacking your rights to post legitimate information, Kobuk. And I really do not believe that I have stifled the discussion. But what I will stand up and do is rebuke what I believe are insulting attacks and insulting mischaracterizations of the beliefs of fellow born-again Christians. Also, I believe it is unChristlike to attack fellow believers concerning matters in the Bible that are open to honest differences of interpretations concerning prophecies or other areas of Scripture that can honestly be interpreted by others with different intepretations.
And now Kobuk is comparing me to a baby, because I reported what I believe were insulting attacks towards the beliefs and actions of fellow fundamentalists and born-again Christians.
*shrugs* Matters not to me what someone on the internet thinks about me, someone I have never met nor talked with, well his opinion about myself really does not effect me at all.
But what does cause reason for concern to me is when there are mischaracterizations and insults of the beliefs by a fundamentalist against other fundamentalists.
To mischaracterize Falwell and LaHaye in the same descriptions as the stereotypical Televangelists is simply nothing more than very poor judgment and an insult in my opinion. I state my beliefs and opinions that reject Kobuk's opinions, and it is labeled as poor debating, and attempts to stifle discussions. I read the weblinks he provides and reject them as being authentic and worthy to be considered authoritative, and I am instead called out as being someone who refuses to read the information Kobuk provides.
Kobuk wants us to act civil and agree to disagree, but instead he continues to push forth his personal agenda against fellow Fundamentalists like Falwell, Kennedy, and LaHaye. He wants us to be civil to one another, and instead he compares Falwell and Kennedy the Scribes and Pharisees.
*shrugs*
ah well, if that is being civil with each other, Kobuk, then I shall remember that in the future. :)

[FreeinChrist]

Well said..

Don't ever let any of our resident trolls talk you out of or haze you out of your biblical discernment. ;)
WHAT trolls?

[kobuk]

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[FreeinChrist]

Exactly. Well said.

http://www.gospelgrace.com/falseprophets/timlahaye/TimLahaye.html

Here's another article about another Moony associate named Jerry Falwell...

http://www.gospelgrace.com/falseprophets/bennyhinn/falwellhinn.htm



oh brother.....more articles that are nothing but slander pieces IMHO.

No, they are not Moony associates. And I've done my homework.

I never cared for Falwells Moral Majority at all and have always disliked Falwell for dragging so much politics into the Southern Baptist Convention, thereby distracting the SBC from it's soul-winning goals....but I also intensely dislike lies and innuendo.

It is one thing to disagree with the eschatology of another...but to attack with lies and innuendo and call them false prophets when NEITHER is a prophet is a disservice to our Lord and to our witness.

I, for one, am premillennial, pretrib and dispensational. And I try very hard not to demean the views of those who are amil, postrib, or partial preterist even though I feel the views are wrong. Even if you are full preterist, I try not to demean the poster though I believe the view is truly heretical. So it is always bothersome to me to see attacks on pretribbers and lies about pretribbers.

[FreeinChrist]

I'll spend some time looking at their entire buffet. See what's impression i recieve from the Holy Spirit and what percentage there can be verified elsewhere.

General stuff on the major predators like Moon involve a lot of actual quotes that could be googled and cross-checked. I've seen the picture of Moon and Falwell very many places now.

There's other topics to discuss that are not so heavy into examining religious people's various positions. It's good to move around in the total spectrum of topics. That includes spiritual music and edifying topics like that.

see ya around... :wave:

I have read the supposed proof of involvement with Moon and feel it is badly misrepresented. BADLY.

And it is mostly based on innuendo and mispreception and mispresentation.


And I have read the entire buffet, kobuk. You might be able to find alot of sites or an article series that seem to support the whole Moony thing....and I am more than familiar with one of the authors of those article ....but they are based on innuendo and misrespresentation.

Example - "Beverly Lehaye speaks at Moon events" - what is left out is that the event was billed as supporting the family, a popular view in the 80's, and many christian leaders signed on. Moon's involvement was hidden until the event itself was occurring. I agree with Lehaye's view - should she have left and let only the view of Moon be heard or stay and teach the truth? She stayed and preached the gospel.

[jlujan69]

I think a non-pre-tribber brought up a good point about those of us who are pre-tribbers. He said that if pre-Trib is not true, then the anti-Christ will try to make us take the Mark and if we do, then we're condemned eternally. He said that if we're looking for a pre-Trib Rapture when
Anti-Christ is making people take the Mark, then we may end up taking it because we don't think that we're in any danger.

[Vambram]

Therefore, since taking the Mark of the Beast is condemnation, and if pretribbers are wrong and we do get faced with that choice of whether or not to take the Mark, then it is extremely vitally important that we hold fast to faith in our Lord and Savior, and never, never, never, EVER take or accept the Mark of the Beast.

[FreeinChrist]

I think a non-pre-tribber brought up a good point about those of us who are pre-tribbers. He said that if pre-Trib is not true, then the anti-Christ will try to make us take the Mark and if we do, then we're condemned eternally. He said that if we're looking for a pre-Trib Rapture when
Anti-Christ is making people take the Mark, then we may end up taking it because we don't think that we're in any danger.
I don't buy into that arguement at all. It's basis is the presumptin that to be a pretribber is to be spiritually weak and I know many pretribbers who are not, and a number who have faced life-threatening persecution. I strongly believe that taking the mark is a a clear choice involving the rejection of the Lord we know.

[icedtea]

I have never read them, though I am a voracious reader,as i just cannot get into fiction no matter how hard I attempt it.
If a book presents the rapture idea as fact and not a story of people going through it, then I've probably read it.

[No Swansong]

It amazes me this is still being discussed.

A few thoughts:

#1 The books are fiction. I have seem and read many interviewers of both authors who deny omniscience. They both agree that the sequence of events as written in the books is one of several interpretations of Scripture they just happen to be pre-trib dispy's, so what it doesn't matter they are not, nor have they ever been claimed to be textbooks. That others have a problem distinguishing fiction from fact is not the fault of the authors.

#2 I enjoy Christian fiction every now and then for instance I am reading a Peretti right now. Nothing wrong with Christian Fiction.

#3 Obviously a number of remarks have been removed but I am wondering how exactly in a discussion about the Left Behind series Jerry Falwell was dragged into it.

#4 As for the teaching of the Church I must admit that I have never read a pre-trip dispy in the ECF's but to be fair I only consider the ECF's to be fallible men. Their opinions, are to me, only opinions.

[Loveaboveall]

Therefore, since taking the Mark of the Beast is condemnation, and if pretribbers are wrong and we do get faced with that choice of whether or not to take the Mark, then it is extremely vitally important that we hold fast to faith in our Lord and Savior, and never, never, never, EVER take or accept the Mark of the Beast.


To not "accept" the mark of the beast relies on your knowledge of what it is. Do you know what the mark of the beast is? Do you even know who the 1st and 2nd beasts of revealtion 13 are? If not, then how will you know not to worship the image to the 1st beast and thus recieve the mark of the beast?


Another thought... Is there any examples of God saving His people FROM tribulation? I can't think of any at the moment, but if one did slip my mind, it is still far outweighed by the many times God saved His people THROUGH tribulation. What makes one think that God would change the way He saves His people?

[Vambram]

To not "accept" the mark of the beast relies on your knowledge of what it is. Do you know what the mark of the beast is? Do you even know who the 1st and 2nd beasts of revealtion 13 are? If not, then how will you know not to worship the image to the 1st beast and thus recieve the mark of the beast?


Another thought... Is there any examples of God saving His people FROM tribulation? I can't think of any at the moment, but if one did slip my mind, it is still far outweighed by the many times God saved His people THROUGH tribulation. What makes one think that God would change the way He saves His people?
That is a ridiculous set of questions to ask to someone whom is born-again and knows beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Lord Jesus Christ is my God and my Savior. I worship the Triune GODhead, and I don't have to tell you what GOD says about worshipping images.
W
If I am alive on Earth when THE anti-christ and his false prophet are ruling this world, then I will DIE before willingly accepting the mark of the beast. Before accepting any set of numbers, in whatever form those numbers might be on either my hand or my forehead, or anywhere else on my body.

As for the rest of your questions, well, instead of taking the time to get in a debate right now, I shall pause, and resume when I am not so very very busy. :)

[Loveaboveall]

That is a ridiculous set of questions to ask to someone whom is born-again and knows beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Lord Jesus Christ is my God and my Savior. I worship the Triune GODhead, and I don't have to tell you what GOD says about worshipping images.
W
If I am alive on Earth when THE anti-christ and his false prophet are ruling this world, then I will DIE before willingly accepting the mark of the beast. Before accepting any set of numbers, in whatever form those numbers might be on either my hand or my forehead, or anywhere else on my body.

As for the rest of your questions, well, instead of taking the time to get in a debate right now, I shall pause, and resume when I am not so very very busy. :)

What if the anti-christ is already here and has been here for a long time? What if it is not as you expect? Are there many who will be led to believe a lie that they are worshipping God but in reality worshipping another?

Remember what 2 Thessolonians warns?

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Th/2Th002.html#11


And then also Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

God gave us Revelation to prepare us for what is to come, Shouldn't we study it diligently so that we will not be decieved? If you take the approach, "Well if I am wrong then I will hold fast to my faith" approach will this sustain you? Would your faith not be shaken if there were no "secret rapture"? What if the sever persecution began and you believed you would not have to go through this persecution, would your faith be shaken?

[Vambram]

What if the anti-christ is already here and has been here for a long time? What if it is not as you expect? Are there many who will be led to believe a lie that they are worshipping God but in reality worshipping another?

If the antichrist is here already, and someone is worshipping, idolizing ((or however you want to describe it)) the antichrist, then they are most definitely NOT worshipping GOD. Since all born-again Christians know when they are indeed worshipping GOD, and the Lord Jesus Christ, then the scenario that you are bringing up is one that no born-again Christian will fall under.


Remember what 2 Thessolonians warns?

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Th/2Th002.html#11


And then also Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Therefore, Jesus and the Apostles have left clear instructions and the written word of God so that we can easily without any doubt and hesitation know whom any false christs are, by the use of the Scriptures along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then it is very easy to determine who the false prophets are. The Bible from the Old Testament through the New Testament clearly shows what the qualifications are of false prophets and the true prophets of the Lord GOD. I am sure that you understand to what I am referring, therefore, I don't need to spell it out for you. :) :cool:

God gave us Revelation to prepare us for what is to come, Shouldn't we study it diligently so that we will not be decieved? If you take the approach, "Well if I am wrong then I will hold fast to my faith" approach will this sustain you? Would your faith not be shaken if there were no "secret rapture"? What if the sever persecution began and you believed you would not have to go through this persecution, would your faith be shaken?

Amen, and again I say Amen. We ought to study the Book of Revelation along with the other prophetic Scriptures. Will my faith be shaken if I am incorrect about the Rapture, and about pre-tribulationalism interpretation of the Scriptures?
Nope, my faith will not be shaken not one iota, because it is no problem at all to understand and recognise that when it comes to prophetic verses and passages of Scripture that speak about the future; that we are talking about [I]interpretations that possibly could be very incorrect.

:groupray: