WOF- Is it possible I'm just missing something?

[Redheadedstepchild]

Before I start...please understand I know nothing. I had never even heard of WOF before a few months ago. As such I'm trying to be open to those things that I don't understand. I don't want this to be a debate...if you are concerned your thoughts might be taken the wrong way please feel free to share them with me privately. I may not agree but I want to at least try to understand.

So my own thoughts on healing and prosperity tend to be that those things can and do happen, but not always. This has been true in my own life many times, in ways that could not be due to luck or chance. But today I ventured to the WOF forum and read this thread (http://foru.ms/t6102303-never-sick.html), where one poster says he hasn't even had a cold in 18 years.

18 years! Isn't that hard to believe? Now, I'm not saying he's lying at all, I'm saying, do you struggle with the concept of someone staying illness free for 18 years? Because I do. That seems completely out of reach to me. It reminds me about my attitudes towards entire sanctification...is it truly possible that we could in fact achieve holiness while in the flesh? Wesley thought so. I'm not there yet.

So my question is, could there be something to WOF that we just aren't grasping for one reason or another? Is it possible that we are missing out due to other things that we associate with WOF? (right or wrong)

[robbymac]

Before I start...please understand I know nothing. I had never even heard of WOF before a few months ago. As such I'm trying to be open to those things that I don't understand. I don't want this to be a debate...if you are concerned your thoughts might be taken the wrong way please feel free to share them with me privately. I may not agree but I want to at least try to understand.

So my own thoughts on healing and prosperity tend to be that those things can and do happen, but not always. This has been true in my own life many times, in ways that could not be due to luck or chance. But today I ventured to the WOF forum and read this thread (http://foru.ms/t6102303-never-sick.html), where one poster says he hasn't even had a cold in 18 years.

18 years! Isn't that hard to believe? Now, I'm not saying he's lying at all, I'm saying, do you struggle with the concept of someone staying illness free for 18 years? Because I do. That seems completely out of reach to me. It reminds me about my attitudes towards entire sanctification...is it truly possible that we could in fact achieve holiness while in the flesh? Wesley thought so. I'm not there yet.

So my question is, could there be something to WOF that we just aren't grasping for one reason or another? Is it possible that we are missing out due to other things that we associate with WOF? (right or wrong)
Part of the problem with many WOF people is that they are compelled to "confess their healing" which means they'll say that they aren't sick when really they are. They have been taught that to acknowledge sickness is to have a "negative confession" and then they won't be healed.

We visited a WOF church once a couple of years ago, and they had the "leg-lengthening" healing time at the front, and my kids were so blown away -- "Daddy, did you hear that? EVERYONE was healed?"

Of course, we had no choice but to let our kids talk to those who had received prayer, and they quickly found out that NONE of them had been healed, but they still "confess healing" anyway. It's all part of their theology on speaking the "word of faith" about healing until their bodies catch up to their words.

So, when non-WOF people accuse them of deliberately lying, that's not really fair. Yes, they're not telling the truth, but it's not based in a desire to deceive, it's just that their theology prevents them from
speaking anything that might be labelled "negative confession".

I hope that helps!

[JTM3]

Before I start...please understand I know nothing. I had never even heard of WOF before a few months ago. As such I'm trying to be open to those things that I don't understand. I don't want this to be a debate...if you are concerned your thoughts might be taken the wrong way please feel free to share them with me privately. I may not agree but I want to at least try to understand.

So my own thoughts on healing and prosperity tend to be that those things can and do happen, but not always. This has been true in my own life many times, in ways that could not be due to luck or chance. But today I ventured to the WOF forum and read this thread (http://foru.ms/t6102303-never-sick.html), where one poster says he hasn't even had a cold in 18 years.

18 years! Isn't that hard to believe? Now, I'm not saying he's lying at all, I'm saying, do you struggle with the concept of someone staying illness free for 18 years? Because I do. That seems completely out of reach to me. It reminds me about my attitudes towards entire sanctification...is it truly possible that we could in fact achieve holiness while in the flesh? Wesley thought so. I'm not there yet.

So my question is, could there be something to WOF that we just aren't grasping for one reason or another? Is it possible that we are missing out due to other things that we associate with WOF? (right or wrong)

I noticed you didn't post in that thread to ask the OP, why come over here and start a new thread asking people who fundamentally disagree with WoF?

Just seems you like you should ask the people OF the movement before people that aren't in the movement (for lack of a better term). :wave:

[~RENEE~]

Why would you want to believe that that poster is lying bout not having a cold? No I do not find that hard to believe.

[Redheadedstepchild]

I noticed you didn't post in that thread to ask the OP, why come over here and start a new thread asking people who fundamentally disagree with WoF?

Just seems you like you should ask the people OF the movement before people that aren't in the movement (for lack of a better term). :wave:
Because the question is for those of us who are not WOF. The question is, essentially, is it possible that we are mistaken about what WOF is all about? Therefore, it would not apply to someone who already believes WOF doctorine. :)

[Redheadedstepchild]

Why would you want to believe that that poster is lying bout not having a cold? No I do not find that hard to believe.
I DON'T believe he is lying. Please re-read what I said. :)

[~RENEE~]

Because the question is for those of us who are not WOF. The question is, essentially, is it possible that we are mistaken about what WOF is all about? Therefore, it would not apply to someone who already believes WOF doctorine. :)
ohhhhh.

[~RENEE~]

I DON'T believe he is lying. Please re-read what I said. :)
yes I did. I am sorry. It was my misunderstanding

[Redheadedstepchild]

I appologize for the confusion.

I just recently started going back to church (in April) after about 20-25 years. I've experienced a large amount of spiritual growth in a very short period of time. I have a pretty firm understanding of some things...others I am just clueless about. This is just my attempt at sorting it all out. :)

[~RENEE~]

I see.

[didaskalos]

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=38874739&postcount=11

[Redheadedstepchild]

Ty. Truly that's amazing. :)

[Redheadedstepchild]

Part of the problem with many WOF people is that they are compelled to "confess their healing" which means they'll say that they aren't sick when really they are. They have been taught that to acknowledge sickness is to have a "negative confession" and then they won't be healed.

We visited a WOF church once a couple of years ago, and they had the "leg-lengthening" healing time at the front, and my kids were so blown away -- "Daddy, did you hear that? EVERYONE was healed?"

Of course, we had no choice but to let our kids talk to those who had received prayer, and they quickly found out that NONE of them had been healed, but they still "confess healing" anyway. It's all part of their theology on speaking the "word of faith" about healing until their bodies catch up to their words.

So, when non-WOF people accuse them of deliberately lying, that's not really fair. Yes, they're not telling the truth, but it's not based in a desire to deceive, it's just that their theology prevents them from
speaking anything that might be labelled "negative confession".

I hope that helps!
I guess this is a good example of what I mean when I ask are we missing out on something because of things we associate with WOF. I have no idea whether or not what you describe is a typical practice or an isolated incident...I would hate to think that I allowed the way some people practice to prevent me from understanding whatever truth there may be in what they believe. (I hope that makes sense).
I participated in a Bible Study at a Pentecostal Holiness church before I actually started going back to church, and boy did I get a lot of flack from my friends and family. I heard everything from how wild the services were to warnings that I would be brainwashed. Of course it was all completely unfounded. It was a wonderful church and I'm so glad that I opened myself up to the experience, even though it turned out not to be the right place for me. I hope I'm approaching WOF with the same mindset.

[~RENEE~]

Stepchild what not a lot of people understand. Is this. Don't look at what your symptoms say. Look at what God's word says. He has the final say after all. And He is not a liar. I am what He says I am.

[JimfromOhio]

I have a list of statement of my beliefs regarding WOF however it is wise not to post them because the statements are considered offensive (to WOF followers).

[NorrinRadd]

You know, for some inexplicable reason, I have this urge to beat you like a red-heade... oh, wait, not so inexplicable. ;) :P

Before I start...please understand I know nothing. I had never even heard of WOF before a few months ago. As such I'm trying to be open to those things that I don't understand. I don't want this to be a debate...if you are concerned your thoughts might be taken the wrong way please feel free to share them with me privately. I may not agree but I want to at least try to understand.

So my own thoughts on healing and prosperity tend to be that those things can and do happen, but not always. This has been true in my own life many times, in ways that could not be due to luck or chance. But today I ventured to the WOF forum and read this thread (http://foru.ms/t6102303-never-sick.html), where one poster says he hasn't even had a cold in 18 years.

18 years! Isn't that hard to believe? Now, I'm not saying he's lying at all, I'm saying, do you struggle with the concept of someone staying illness free for 18 years? Because I do.

I agree. It seems unbelievable. I also won't say the poster is lying. But as a former WOFfer, I'll try to enlighten you as to some of the verbal gymnastics often employed.

In the WOF church I used to attend, there would often be half a dozen or so people (out of a congregation of maybe 200) snorting, sniffling, and sneezing. If the person was a relative "newbie" and you asked them about it, they'd come right out and say they had a cold. If it was more of a "veteran," they'd say something more like, "Bless God, by His stripes I'm healed. I believe I receive it." They would not "confess" to being sick, because that would be lack of faith, and would give the devil more power; but they also would not say, "No, I'm not sick," because that would be lying. They (we) learned to carefully phrase things just so.

If you read some books by Kenneth Hagin, "father" of the Faith message, you'll see him assert that he'd not had a sick day in decades 30, 35, 40 or more years, depending on the date of the book. But in many of those books, he would also directly admit to having had "symptoms" many times. Well, it doesn't do a whole lot of good to not be sick if you still have symptoms!


That seems completely out of reach to me. It reminds me about my attitudes towards entire sanctification...is it truly possible that we could in fact achieve holiness while in the flesh? Wesley thought so. I'm not there yet.IIRC, Wesley himself did not claim to have achieved that point. I think he said he'd only personally met one or two people who he believed had actually reached that level.


So my question is, could there be something to WOF that we just aren't grasping for one reason or another? Is it possible that we are missing out due to other things that we associate with WOF? (right or wrong)I think some people are too quick to dismiss anything that even sounds "sort of like" WOF teaching.

[Floatingaxe]

I am not Word of Faith, but I will always refuse a negative report. I refuse to speak it also. Every person I know who has refused a negative report has had their healing: eye disease averted; kidney transplant averted due to previously failed transplant suddenly made whole; deadly heart defect in newborn healed at doctor's amazement; breast cancer healed; child's cancerous tumours on kidneys disappeared; unknown mystery disease of pain and paralysis of a normal able-bodied man healed; a couple where the husband is diagnosed as totally sterile has a beautiful baby boy!

All these and more are reports from those in our own church where we are taught that we need to rebuke a negative report. God wants us to be healthy and able to do His will. Satan is the author of disease, and he will come against those who are influential for the Kingdom..count on it. Accepting sickness of any kind is agreeing with him


I myself have not been physically sick in years...no colds for decades. Bronchitis has been said to be a weakness, though, but the Lord has healed me from that, and I haven't suffered from it in about 5 years now


Refusing to even say, "I have___________", is a good thing! We say, "They say I have____________, but I know that I am whole in Jesus' name."

[he4rty]

This is an Interesting thread and thanks for starting it Red.

I suppose I'm in the same boat as you and still trying to understand WOF as never heard of it till I came here.

As for the healing side of things, something I read lately which parallels with our healing is salvation.

At times I still sin, do I say "I'm no longer saved" or push on with the belief that through Jesus on the cross all my sins are forgiven and eternal glory has been given to me. To do this I must believe the truth not always my circumstances and its the same parallel with healing its believing Gods word when circumstances seem to say otherwise.

hope that makes sense.

[Alpine]

I don't consider myself WOF, though I used to hold to some WOF teachings and I also have attended churches that were WOF.

My belief is that some things that they believe are true. But then, a lot of things they believe are also not true. So, I see them as somewhat right, but also somewhat wrong. So, I don't condemn WOFers, they are definitely Christians, contrary to what some people would like to say.

I don't think God always heals, though I believe He loves to heal.

I don't think positive confession is a guarantee that what you confess will happen. Maybe it isn't what God wants for you now?

I think that Word of faith'ers are a bit extreme in their beliefs. Most denominations or fellowships often emphasize certain doctrines. The reason for this is their point of coming together is often a reaction to another extreme. For example, you have the Church of Christ that claims that you must be baptized as an adult to be saved. This is a reaction to the prominent teaching for centuries of infant baptism. An extreme (and wrong) reaction. I hope you see my point. The Wof movement is a reaction to the "faithless" and "dry"church that experienced few miracles and moves of the presence of God. .

[jeolmstead]

To answer the OP;

Yes, I think there are things we miss. It is difficult not to throw the baby out with the bath water. We need to glean what we can.

As far as the gentleman who has never been sick; his experience bears no more weight then the hundreds of others in his church who claim the same doctrine, yet have been sick many times.

There are lost people who have never been sick. Does that prove that being lost keeps you well?

How can one or two people getting healed at a crusade prove a doctrine when hundreds (or thousands) of others who believe the same are not healed?

What about lost people who have a sudden unexplainable remission of their disease? (Ask doctors, it happens)

My belief in a doctrine (or unbelief) does not make it true or untrue.

So, how do we address this?

1. What does the word really say?

2. How were these issues really addressed and thought of in the early church?

3. Does it work in real life?

So much of what we see now does not stand up to these three questions.

John O.

[JTM3]

Another clarification, which I think has been mentioned before, is that when WoF speak of "denying" sickness we are speaking of denying sicknesses right to exist in our bodies because of our new covenant.

I think... :P

Dids? :D

[Tamara224]

Does WoF get some stuff right? Of course they do. They are Christian too and so they get about as much right as any other denomination or doctrine.

But for me... WoF view the world so differently than I do, that I have a very hard time listening to anything they say. It's not just a few points of doctrinal difference. It's the methodology by which they read and teach the Word on which we differ. Their underlying assumption is that God is less sovereign than, IMO, He really is. They begin with the assumption that God only works when humans give him permission/authority to do so. I can't agree with that basic premise but it is the premise on which WoF builds their entire theology. It is the number one cause of disagreement between WoF and Non-WoF, the ultimate source of all disagreements. In every single debate I have ever entered into with WoF, this is the bedrock of our disagreement.

And part of the problem is, to be honest, the WoFers themselves. See what they've done in this thread? I've been attacked by WoFers in this place more often than any other denomination. Part of that is due to the fact that I spend more time here than elsewhere. But when I debate with a Baptist, for example, we can agree to disagree. But with some of the more outspoken WoFers, I've been called names like "mere theist" and told that I am "anti-prosperity" and "anti-healing" or that I don't believe God heals, or that I believe God is evil.

It is things like that that make me close my ears to anything a WoFer has to say. If they can't demonstrate love to me, then I am not willing to believe as they do. If they can't even try to understand that I believe sincerely what I believe, then why should I bother to listen to them? If their only tool of conversion is to deride me into changing my mind... Well, there's something wrong with that and I will reject it.

Besides which, I believe in checking everything against Scripture. Too many of the WoF doctrines don't check out. The so-called main doctrines of WoF (at least the ones they always talk about in here) IMO, don't line up with Scripture. I can't agree with them on the way they interpret Job, Paul's thorn, Lazarus' resurrection and many many other passages of Scripture.

If something that WoF happen to believe is true, the Holy Spirit can reveal it as truth to me without any reference to WoF theology. Most likely, the true stuff is stuff shared by everyone else anyway... I'll be just as likely to hear it from a Baptist preacher. (Which brings up another point... Not all, but many outspoken WoFers around here will call someone "non-charismatic" if we disagree with them... as if that is a huge problem. I personally don't think speaking in tongues is the end-all be-all of Christianity. I do it, and treasure that gift, but I don't think any less of my brothers and sisters who happen to be cessationists.)

[forrestcupp]

I believe that God is moved by our faith. Not because we have power over God, but rather because our faith in Him pleases Him. Faith comes from intimately knowing God.

I think where some WoF people get it wrong is that they think of confession kind of like magical catch phrases. That if they say the right hocus pocus something will happen. The Bible does say that the power of life and death is in the tongue. But the whole point of confession is not magic. The true purpose of positive confession is to break down our psychological barriers and doubts and convince ourselves that God's Word is true. Positive confession is not a magical incantation, but rather to build our faith up so that we can receive from God. It's faith that moves God, not confession.

About the whole saying you're not sick thing, God calls things that are not as though they were, but He doesn't call things that are as though they are not.

[Floatingaxe]

I thought it was made pretty clear when this forum began that it was NOT a place for WOF people to come in and spread their teachings. That is for the main forum, or the Word of Faith sub-forum -- NOT HERE.

Please go read our Wiki regarding the beliefs of this forum, and respect the boundaries that have been set.


I am not WoF. I am just F, Mr robbymac, sir!

[Redheadedstepchild]

Ty everyone for posting. Just wanted to let you know that I've been reading and thinking about what you've written. I fell asleep last night before I could get back here to comment but I'll be back this evening. :)

[NorrinRadd]

I thought it was made pretty clear when this forum began that it was NOT a place for WOF people to come in and spread their teachings. That is for the main forum, or the Word of Faith sub-forum -- NOT HERE.

Please go read our Wiki regarding the beliefs of this forum, and respect the boundaries that have been set.
This is the problem with the way these forums are currently sliced and diced. You have to spend 45 minutes reading and re-reading all the rules for each forum and subforum, input it all into a spreadsheet, and invoke some magical formula in order to decide where to pose a question to get a balanced answer.

[ANM29]

I have a really hard time even having a conversation ( nothing more than , "Hello and Bye" ) with WOF'ers.

The idea that you have a broken leg ( literally ) but you will not confess it out loud and if you do you might not get healed scares the living daylight out of me. ( Among many other examples I can use ).

Too much "theory" when it comes to interpreting scriptures as well. I just don't have the patience for a lot of them.

I love them, but we are not on the same page. Like scripture says how can two walk together unless they agree. I guess this is one example of that we when believers are not on the same accord.

[jeolmstead]

I have a really hard time even having a conversation ( nothing more than , "Hello and Bye" ) with WOF'ers.

The idea that you have a broken leg ( literally ) but you will not confess it out loud and if you do you might not get healed scares the living daylight out of me. ( Among many other examples I can use ).

Too much "theory" when it comes to interpreting scriptures as well. I just don't have the patience for a lot of them.

I love them, but we are not on the same page. Like scripture says how can two walk together unless they agree. I guess this is one example of that we when believers are not on the same accord.
In all fairness, most of the WOF people I know do not take it to that extreme. They would go to the doctor and get their leg fixed. They would pray through the whole experience, and give God the glory for the work of the doctor.

It is pretty much the same way I would handle it.

It is amazing to me however that they still hold to a doctrine about healing that cuts against this scenario.


There is a disconnect between what is believed to be true and what proves to be true in practice. They have no problem lauding an occasional miracle as proof text and at the same time they ignore or discount the thousands who do not get healed who profess the same belief system.

This disconnect necessitates the doctrine of faith verses unbelief. They’ve concluded that God wants that miracle to happen every single time, therefore, when it doesn’t the problem is either a lack of faith, or unbelief. The weight of the failure of the doctrine is shifted to the believer who now is convinced that he must believe “more” to get his healing. That same believer can not question this or that is demonstrating “unbelief”. Unbelief will also short circuit the process.

John O.

[ANM29]

In all fairness, most of the WOF people I know do not take it to that extreme. They would go to the doctor and get their leg fixed. They would pray through the whole experience. And give God the glory for the work of the doctor.

It is pretty much the same way I would handle it.

It is amazing to me however that they still hold to a doctrine about healing that cuts against this scenario.


There is a disconnect between what is believed to be true and what proves to be true in practice. They have no problem lauding an occasional miracle as proof text and at the same time they ignore or discount the thousands who do not get healed who profess the same belief system.

This disconnect necessitates the doctrine of faith verses unbelief. They’ve concluded that God wants that miracle to happen every single time, therefore, when it doesn’t the problem is either a lack of faith, or unbelief. The weight of the failure of the doctrine is shifted to the believer who now is convinced that he must believe “more” to get his healing. That same believer can not question this or that is demonstrating “unbelief”. Unbelief will also short circuit the process.

John O.

Well John, those are the ones you know. I could give you some even more extreme examples. I even have family who are WOF, and it gets even worse when you have to try to stay peaceful and you are provoked at times.

I was listening to a WOF on TV the other night as he bragged about not being sick for years. I thought to myself, "Ok, what about the day you die, and you will..Does that mean that you did not have enough faith to stay alive forever?" .. My thing is where does this 'positive confession' stuff end? At what point does God have any control without 'our' consent?.:scratch:

Anyway..Thanks for your comments John O. :)

[Floatingaxe]

Well you are wrong about me. There is no WOF "doctrine" per se, anyway. I never even heard of it until about a year ago. My pastors preach against the simplistic and dangerous practices of such churches. We have seen the fallout of them! They implode and all the ravaged believers end up in our congregation for healing and correction.

So I do not take kindly to your generalizations about my faith in Jesus Christ, and His authority in His Church.

I was sharing my faith and experience, in love. Don't tread on a sister.



BTW: Jesus healed all who came to Him--everyone, by the thousands.

[jeolmstead]

Well you are wrong about me. There is no WOF "doctrine" per se, anyway. I never even heard of it until about a year ago. My pastors preach against the simplistic and dangerous practices of such churches. We have seen the fallout of them! They implode and all the ravaged believers end up in our congregation for healing and correction.

So I do not take kindly to your generalizations about my faith in Jesus Christ, and His authority in His Church.

I was sharing my faith and experience, in love. Don't tread on a sister.



BTW: Jesus healed all who came to Him--everyone, by the thousands.
You are certainly free to define youself as you wish. Forgive me if I offended you. God bless

John O.

[Tamara224]

Well you are wrong about me. There is no WOF "doctrine" per se, anyway. I never even heard of it until about a year ago. My pastors preach against the simplistic and dangerous practices of such churches. We have seen the fallout of them! They implode and all the ravaged believers end up in our congregation for healing and correction.

Just because you've never heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Whether you admit it or not, the beliefs you have expressed here match more closely whith the WoF statement of beliefs (found here (http://foru.ms/t5882271-word-of-faith-forum-rules.html)) than they do with this sub-forum's statement of beliefs.

It's not meant to be offensive to you for us to point these things out. It's just the truth.

So I do not take kindly to your generalizations about my faith in Jesus Christ, and His authority in His Church.

No one generalized about your faith in Jesus Christ. We know you are our sister. But we do disagree on these doctrinal points, whether we like it or not.

I was sharing my faith and experience, in love. Don't tread on a sister.

We are not treading on you to point out that you may be in the wrong forum.

I'm sorry it offends you. But maybe you could try to see it from our point of view. We don't want to constantly debate these issues. We don't want to constantly have to counter what we believe is doctrinal error. So we requested and were granted this subforum as a safe harbor. Unlike the WoF subforum, we do not require a certain icon to post here. But we ask that you respect our rules and only post that which is in agreement with our statement of beliefs. Is it too much to ask for you to respect us (your brothers and sisters) enough to not have your say here?

BTW: Jesus healed all who came to Him--everyone, by the thousands.

That may be true. But, our position in this subforum is that it does not mean what you say it means. It doesn't mean He is obliged to, or will, heal every person who asks for physical healing today. That is the crux of our disagreement and we ask that you not promote or advocate that position here. Take it to the main SF-P/C forum.

I really don't understand why that is so difficult. Why must you insist on having your way here as well? Why should you not respect our request?

[Floatingaxe]

I am not Word of Faith. I resent your pigeon-holing.

[Tamara224]

I am not Word of Faith. I resent your pigeon-holing.


I never said you were. I said the beliefs you expressed match those of WoF. You can call yourself whatever you want to. I certainly don't have a problem with that.

But our forum rules do not exclude WoF people from posting fellowship posts in this subforum. We object to the doctrine, not the people. Since your doctrines are so very similar to WoF theology... we object to those and ask you not to promote or debate them here.

Please try to see it from our point of view. :wave:

[Balance]

Thread temporarily closed for staff review and cleaning

While this is being done - please review the forum wiki which states:

Healing:

All Charismatic believers believe in the gift of Healing and that God can and does heal. We believe in praying for healing as a significant part of our ministry. However, following on in the example of the Apostle Paul, we believe that healing does not always occur, and that God does not come at our bidding, but rather he works through us serving him in prayer. Sometimes we must acknowledge that healing does not occur so that He may be glorified. Like Job, we can honestly testify, "The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised." (Job 1:21)

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me." [2 Cor 12:7-9]


re-opened

[Redheadedstepchild]

Stepchild what not a lot of people understand. Is this. Don't look at what your symptoms say. Look at what God's word says. He has the final say after all. And He is not a liar. I am what He says I am.
Ty for posting this...I will spend some time thinking about it. And ty also for trying to understand where I'm coming from and meeting me where I am.

[Redheadedstepchild]

I have a list of statement of my beliefs regarding WOF however it is wise not to post them because the statements are considered offensive (to WOF followers).

Ty for your restraint :)

You know, for some inexplicable reason, I have this urge to beat you like a red-heade... oh, wait, not so inexplicable. ;) :P

Heyyyyy.:sorry: Yeah I guess I'm aptly named.

I agree. It seems unbelievable. I also won't say the poster is lying. But as a former WOFfer, I'll try to enlighten you as to some of the verbal gymnastics often employed.

In the WOF church I used to attend, there would often be half a dozen or so people (out of a congregation of maybe 200) snorting, sniffling, and sneezing. If the person was a relative "newbie" and you asked them about it, they'd come right out and say they had a cold. If it was more of a "veteran," they'd say something more like, "Bless God, by His stripes I'm healed. I believe I receive it." They would not "confess" to being sick, because that would be lack of faith, and would give the devil more power; but they also would not say, "No, I'm not sick," because that would be lying. They (we) learned to carefully phrase things just so.

If you read some books by Kenneth Hagin, "father" of the Faith message, you'll see him assert that he'd not had a sick day in decades 30, 35, 40 or more years, depending on the date of the book. But in many of those books, he would also directly admit to having had "symptoms" many times. Well, it doesn't do a whole lot of good to not be sick if you still have symptoms!

As I'm reading these comments it occurs to me that this is very much like positive intention (is that what it's called?) although I don't know that the new age version requires a lot of faith. I think there's definetely something to staying positive.

IIRC, Wesley himself did not claim to have achieved that point. I think he said he'd only personally met one or two people who he believed had actually reached that level.

(What's IIRC?) But those people existed apparently. I still struggle with it however.

I think some people are too quick to dismiss anything that even sounds "sort of like" WOF teaching.

Agreed.

[Redheadedstepchild]

I am not Word of Faith, but I will always refuse a negative report. I refuse to speak it also. Every person I know who has resused a negative report has had their healing: eye disease averted; kidney transplant averted due to previously failed transplant suddenly made whole; deadly heart defect in newborn healed at doctor's amazement; breast cancer healed; child's cancerous tumours on kidneys disappeared; unknown mystery disease of pain and paralysis of a normal able-bodied man healed; a couple where the husband is diagnosed as totally sterile has a beautiful baby boy!

All these and more are reports from those in our own church where we are taught that we need to rebuke a negative report. God wants us to be healthy and able to do His will. Satan is the author of disease, and he will come against those who are influential for the Kingdom..count on it. Accepting sickness of any kind is agreeing with him


I myself have not been physically sick in years...no colds for decades. Bronchitis has been said to be a weakness, though, but the Lord has healed me from that, and I haven't suffered from it in about 5 years now


Refusing to even say, "I have___________", is a good thing! We say, "They say I have____________, but I know that I am whole in Jesus' name."

I think it's wonderful that you know so many people who have been healed and that you yourself have been illness free. I also know people who have been healed, and in fact have experienced similar things. However, I also know people who believed similar to you and refused negative reports who were not healed. It's confusing to me.

[Redheadedstepchild]

This is an Interesting thread and thanks for starting it Red.

I suppose I'm in the same boat as you and still trying to understand WOF as never heard of it till I came here.

As for the healing side of things, something I read lately which parallels with our healing is salvation.

At times I still sin, do I say "I'm no longer saved" or push on with the belief that through Jesus on the cross all my sins are forgiven and eternal glory has been given to me. To do this I must believe the truth not always my circumstances and its the same parallel with healing its believing Gods word when circumstances seem to say otherwise.

hope that makes sense.


Ty He4rty...that does make sense. There are many things I've found in my walk that seem to require a leap of faith...or at least the willingness to leap. This may well be one of them.

And also, thank you for the validation. I'm glad I started the thread despite the uproar.

[JAS4Yeshua]

My first experience with Word of Faith came from the book "Counterfeit Revival" by Hank Haanagraff. You want to talk about anti-WoF, he definately fit the bill. When I first came here, that was all I knew about Word of Faith, and it was all I believed.

Since joining the forum, I have learned much from the Word of Faith members here. I've been involved in numerous debates on what the Word of Faith believes, and I still disagree with it, but I also realize that my view of it was way too narrow when I first came here. Because I was willing to actually read what they were saying, I came to understand them better, even though I disagreed with them.

My point is this. We need to look at what we believe, in light of Scripture, and take the time to read what the other side has to say, without dismissing them completely. We don't have to agree, but we can still learn from each other, and agree to disagree.

[JTM3]

My first experience with Word of Faith came from the book "Counterfeit Revival" by Hank Haanagraff. You want to talk about anti-WoF, he definately fit the bill. When I first came here, that was all I knew about Word of Faith, and it was all I believed.

Since joining the forum, I have learned much from the Word of Faith members here. I've been involved in numerous debates on what the Word of Faith believes, and I still disagree with it, but I also realize that my view of it was way too narrow when I first came here. Because I was willing to actually read what they were saying, I came to understand them better, even though I disagreed with them.

My point is this. We need to look at what we believe, in light of Scripture, and take the time to read what the other side has to say, without dismissing them completely. We don't have to agree, but we can still learn from each other, and agree to disagree.

Thanks Jas:wave::hug:

[Alpine]

My first experience with Word of Faith came from the book "Counterfeit Revival" by Hank Haanagraff. You want to talk about anti-WoF, he definately fit the bill. When I first came here, that was all I knew about Word of Faith, and it was all I believed.

Since joining the forum, I have learned much from the Word of Faith members here. I've been involved in numerous debates on what the Word of Faith believes, and I still disagree with it, but I also realize that my view of it was way too narrow when I first came here. Because I was willing to actually read what they were saying, I came to understand them better, even though I disagreed with them.

My point is this. We need to look at what we believe, in light of Scripture, and take the time to read what the other side has to say, without dismissing them completely. We don't have to agree, but we can still learn from each other, and agree to disagree.

I read that book, and let me tell you, I was disgusted with it. I've known so many wonderful believers with a wof point of view, some the strongest Christians I've ever known, and here he was saying they were a cult. I feel that he really misrepresented many of their common beliefs. A very good counter to that book is Heresy Hunters (http://www.amazon.com/Heresy-Hunters-James-R-Spencer/dp/B000NXM2C8/ref=sr_1_1/104-9294612-4835155?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190169580&sr=1-1) by James Spencer. It was excellent!

[NorrinRadd]

My first experience with Word of Faith came from the book "Counterfeit Revival" by Hank Haanagraff. You want to talk about anti-WoF, he definately fit the bill. When I first came here, that was all I knew about Word of Faith, and it was all I believed.

That one wasn't really about WOF, it was about the "Toronto Blessing" movement. Not very good. Way too little analysis via comparison to Scripture, too much emphasis on comparing TB to things like hypnotism, and ultimately ends up sounding almost anti-Pentecostal/anti-Charismatic. HH's anti-WOF book was Christianity in Crisis, which came out a few years earlier. It's a useful reference, and contains a wealth of notes, but it inaccurately implies more standardization of WOF doctrine than actually exists, and fails to appreciate some of the nuances of various WOF preachers. Rob Bowman's The Word-Faith Controversy is better. I particularly like the part where he notes that some of Walter Martin's doctrines were almost indistinguishable from Copeland doctrines that HH attacks.

[Redheadedstepchild]

I'm attempting to comment on some other posts on the thread...I couldn't get on last night after a certain point.:sigh:



I don't think God always heals, though I believe He loves to heal.

I don't think positive confession is a guarantee that what you confess will happen. Maybe it isn't what God wants for you now?


This so far is closest to what I believe. I believe healing is for everyone but according to God's plan. My will is not his will (though I hope I grow closer to his will each day) and so what I desire might not always be what he wants for me right then. Also, I wonder sometimes if healing is spiritual moreso than physical.

[Redheadedstepchild]

To answer the OP;

Yes, I think there are things we miss. It is difficult not to throw the baby out with the bath water. We need to glean what we can.

As far as the gentleman who has never been sick; his experience bears no more weight then the hundreds of others in his church who claim the same doctrine, yet have been sick many times.

There are lost people who have never been sick. Does that prove that being lost keeps you well?

How can one or two people getting healed at a crusade prove a doctrine when hundreds (or thousands) of others who believe the same are not healed?

What about lost people who have a sudden unexplainable remission of their disease? (Ask doctors, it happens)

My belief in a doctrine (or unbelief) does not make it true or untrue.

So, how do we address this?

1. What does the word really say?

2. How were these issues really addressed and thought of in the early church?

3. Does it work in real life?

So much of what we see now does not stand up to these three questions.

John O.


Ty John. I do see many of the inconsistencies that you point out. I am curious about your 2nd question. Do you mind answering it for me? How were these issues thought of and addressed in the early church?

[Redheadedstepchild]

Another clarification, which I think has been mentioned before, is that when WoF speak of "denying" sickness we are speaking of denying sicknesses right to exist in our bodies because of our new covenant.

I think... :P

Dids? :D

OK, ty. I didn't understand that before. So sickness is like a form of spiritual warefare?

[Redheadedstepchild]

But for me... WoF view the world so differently than I do, that I have a very hard time listening to anything they say. It's not just a few points of doctrinal difference. It's the methodology by which they read and teach the Word on which we differ. Their underlying assumption is that God is less sovereign than, IMO, He really is. They begin with the assumption that God only works when humans give him permission/authority to do so. I can't agree with that basic premise but it is the premise on which WoF builds their entire theology. It is the number one cause of disagreement between WoF and Non-WoF, the ultimate source of all disagreements. In every single debate I have ever entered into with WoF, this is the bedrock of our disagreement.


I didn't realize this...and agree it's troubling. God doesn't need my permission for anything, and he has worked in my life even when I hardly recognized him

I believe that God is moved by our faith. Not because we have power over God, but rather because our faith in Him pleases Him. Faith comes from intimately knowing God.


Makes much more sense to me...except that I believe faith comes from God...he gives the increase. Maybe that's just the Methodist in me though.

My first experience with Word of Faith came from the book "Counterfeit Revival" by Hank Haanagraff. You want to talk about anti-WoF, he definately fit the bill. When I first came here, that was all I knew about Word of Faith, and it was all I believed.

Since joining the forum, I have learned much from the Word of Faith members here. I've been involved in numerous debates on what the Word of Faith believes, and I still disagree with it, but I also realize that my view of it was way too narrow when I first came here. Because I was willing to actually read what they were saying, I came to understand them better, even though I disagreed with them.

My point is this. We need to look at what we believe, in light of Scripture, and take the time to read what the other side has to say, without dismissing them completely. We don't have to agree, but we can still learn from each other, and agree to disagree.

Yeah, this is what I was striving for. Ty JAS. I'm still confused by the whole thing, but I think I have a better grasp then I did before.

OK, one last thing. I just want to thank the poster that I refered to in the OP for being a gentleman about all this. :) I again want to say that I didn't doubt him...it was more the concept that I was struggling with.

I'm going to chew on this a bit more, but in the meantime I think I'll stick with the fluff threads for awhile. ;) Ty everyone for your comments.

[lismore]

So my question is, could there be something to WOF that we just aren't grasping for one reason or another? Is it possible that we are missing out due to other things that we associate with WOF? (right or wrong)

Hello How are you:wave:

There might be a little bit of misunderstanding floating about, perhaps because y'all have met some people with extreme views?

As I see it this 'positive confession' can be quite confusing, some people take it to extremes and talk nonsense. Its not so much positive confession as agreeing with what God has said. There is no 'positive' just 'truth'. Unless God has said it then its just hot air.

Truthful confession would be a better way to describe it. As the bible says all the promises are yes and amen in Christ but the yes and amen has to be spoken by us before that promise can manifest into your life (2 Corinthians 1:20).

This passage about Abraham really clears it up for me:

Romans 4:
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be


Abram was an old man, he had no children and naturally speaking had zero chance of getting any children. He was 100 and his wife was 90. But God told Abram you will be the Father of a multitude, even though naturally speaking that was impossible. Abram's truthful confession was to call himself Abraham now, Abraham means Father of a multitude even though he had no children and no chance naturally speaking of having any.

When people asked who he was he would introduce himself as Abraham: Father of a multitude. People would ask where is this multitude was he had no offspring.All Abraham had was a word from God and faith to provide the evidence of things as yet unseen. God called the things that were not as though they were and it was so.

Its all about agreeing with what God has said rather than saying something yourself.

Now if God has promised he will keep sickness away (read through the bible and see if he has;) ), then it shouldnt be a surprise if it actually happens? Afterall, who can speak and have it come to pass if the Lord has not decreed it? (Lamentations 3:37) But when God has decreed it, his word will not return void but will do what he sent it out to do (Isaiah 55:11).

And we also need to remember that no other foundation can be laid other than that of CHrist (1 Cor 3:11). He is the word of God made flesh and sent out to perform a purpose: to release all the captives and heal all oppressed by the devil. He is the foundation.

Plz note: post in friendship by a visiting Pentecostal fundy. If offends please ammend!

God Bless You:wave:

[lismore]

Hi there:wave:

Not meaning to cause any problems here, but do you know why there is a tradition to say grace before a meal?

Exodus 23:25

25 Worship the LORD your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you.

Its because this scripture was taken literally to mean what it says.

If someone says they have never had food poisoning because of God's blessing, its not far fetched is it?

:)

[Floatingaxe]

Hi there:wave:

Not meaning to cause any problems here, but do you know why there is a tradition to say grace before a meal?

Exodus 23:25

25 Worship the LORD your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you.

Its because this scripture was taken literally to mean what it says.

If someone says they have never had food poisoning because of God's blessing, its not far fetched is it?

:)


http://pichostonline.com/u/070920/a3eb093aa2.gif (http://pichostonline.com/)

[NorrinRadd]

OK, ty. I didn't understand that before. So sickness is like a form of spiritual warefare?

I think many WOF people would say something more along the lines that it is part of the "good fight of faith."

"Spiritual warfare" would more likely be intercessory prayer where one is binding the strong man, binding demons and loosing angels, tearing down strongholds, etc. (I don't happen to agree that those are correct understandings of "binding and loosing" and "tearing down strongholds," but that's another matter.)

[BellaSong]

I am not Word of Faith. I resent your pigeon-holing.
Your own faith icon says that you are.

[BellaSong]

It seems that WOF seems to discount the consequences for actions. If you don't take proper care of yourself and so on, you will get sick. Disease was brought into this world as a consequence to Adam and Eve's actions. It seems that some denominations try to put all the blame on Satan and the fact is that we have to deal with the consequences of our actions.

[forrestcupp]

Makes much more sense to me...except that I believe faith comes from God...he gives the increase. Maybe that's just the Methodist in me though.

I wasn't meaning that at all. Of course faith comes only from God. We are all given the measure of faith. What I meant was that faith is strengthened as we come to intimately know God. It's not something we work up on our own. Faith moving God reminds me of my little boy and me. I kiss him on the cheek a lot. But when he comes up of his own will and with no ulterior motives and he kisses me on the cheek it puts me on top of the world.

I believe that for various reasons that we can't see, sometimes it's God's will to not heal someone. We don't see the big picture, and to a Christian, dying is the ultimate healing. But I do believe that there are times that it is God's will to heal someone, and they aren't open to receiving it from Him. It's kind of like salvation. It's God's will for all men to be saved. But not all men are open to receiving it from Him.

So my practice is to seek God's will. If I don't get a clear answer, I pray for healing. Then if it doesn't happen, I trust that God knows what is best.

[jeolmstead]

Ty John. I do see many of the inconsistencies that you point out. I am curious about your 2nd question. Do you mind answering it for me? How were these issues thought of and addressed in the early church?
Paul instructed us to “count it joy” when we suffered for Christ’s sake. How does that line up with a doctrine that says God never wants you to suffer?

As you read through the New Testament and look at the lives of those who wrote it you that they lived a life full of suffering and hardship. They write about how God used this to perfect them and how He gives grace to overcome.

As far as what can tell, all the apostles (with the exception of John) were martyred. Nero lit his garden with “Christian candles” did these people lack faith?
Read Hebrews 11. Read how the bible describes the champions of the faith and compare that to the picture painted by the WOF doctrine.

If all this is true why didn’t it work for those who are now claimed to have inspired it?

The same is true today. There are miracles in the church. There are signs and wonders (as Jesus said there would be) These things happen but they don’t happen the way some claim. The fact that someone believes this doctrine does not make it true. If it was true you would see the evidence of it. The fact is however that those who profess it to be true get sick and die at the same rate and in the same way as everyone else.

John O.

[Floatingaxe]

Your own faith icon says that you are.

I changed my icon since the time of that post. Before that it was Charismatic. With all the denunciation I got here for my posts that were deleted, I took a look at the Word of Faith Satement of Faith and realized I agreed with it.

That doesn't mean I agree with the things that some more prominent people proclaim.

A church in our city did major damage spiritually to many people here, who came to our church for healing...they were Word of Faith. Their leader told them that the Lord said that was the year every one of them would receive new cars and homes. Many of them went out and bought new cars and new homes and promptly went bankrupt. This kind of prosperity teaching is demonic and controlling. The same ting goes with the unwise use of authority regarding healing and health.

Anyhow--I was influenced by the unaccepting manner my views were received and have changed my designation on Foru.ms.

[simpleone]

I am not for the wof stuff and find it hard to accept some stuff there....but then again no "group" is perfect.
I believe God is in control - not us and God has given us the faith to believe in him and it is he who works in us to accomplish things...

Maybe I am wrong here but it seems to me (my opinion) - that the wof stuff is very focused on the present - on the present world and fixing stuff here...which is ok to an extent but in the grand scheme of things - this world is temporary and not my home...I don't really want to get comfortable here coz - again - its not my home :) ...and I know I will be in my real home soon! :tutu: ...

[FallingWaters]

... So my question is, could there be something to WOF that we just aren't grasping for one reason or another? Is it possible that we are missing out due to other things that we associate with WOF? (right or wrong)I used to be a student of the WOF movement for a couple of years.
I got into it about 6 years after I was born again.
I liked the fact that I learned how to stand on the word in faith,
but there was an insidious side-effect that I did not like at all.

When I was a brand new Christian,
the first verse I memorized and walked in when I had trouble was:
"All things work together for the good of those who love God..."
This verse helped me trust God through all things- even if they seemed bad-
because I knew they would ultimately turn out for my good, as God promised.
This trust in the Sovereignty of God at the foundation of my faith,
carried me through every difficulty of my life with peace and sometimes even joy.

The WOF teaching stole my trust in the Sovereignty of God
because it teaches if I have enough faith, I am in charge of my destiny.
If I don't have enough faith then it's my own fault I have pain in my life.
All of a sudden I am in control of my life, God is not.
Trouble in my life means that I am a failure, and a subject of ridicule to those who have more faith than I do.
Someone even told Joni Earekson Tada that she could get up out of her wheelchair if she had enough faith!
Oh really!
So the last 30 years of her life spent championing the cause of the handicapped hasn't been important?!
Do you think she could have done that without her wheelchair?
I don't think so!

I am glad I've got my faith and trust in God back.
I know how to walk in faith,
but if I am not healed,
it is not a matter for condemnation.
God knows best and I trust in that.
Trouble and trials are good for Christians.
They build character, perseverance and trust in the faithfulness of God,
besides other excellent character qualities.

My husband was laid off from his job, and I was terrified.
I was mostly terrified because I knew I didn't have faith, as I had had at other times.
I was not confident or secure in the word.
I could not drum up faith no matter how hard I tried.
You know what happened?
God was faithful even though I was faithless!
We made it through those months of difficult financial struggles even though I didn't have a shred of faith.

I learned that my ability to have faith does not control my life.
God is in control.

This scripture reminds me most of the WOF movement:

Psa 12:3 May the LORD cut off all flattering lips,
and the tongue that speaks proud things,
Psa 12:4 who have said,
"With our tongue we will prevail,
our lips are our own;
who is lord over us?"

I respond:
My lips are not my own.
I was bought with a price.
Jesus Christ is LORD over me.

Recently, a friend was all upset because she is a WOF devotee and a cancer patient she was praying for died.
She couldn't comprehend the fact that God has the right to take us home whenever He chooses.
That is a dangerous place to be in.
That theology is not sound.


WOF brought lack of peace and joy into my life.
Life is scary when you're in control.

Trust in the goodness and Sovereignty of God brings peace and joy.

That's my own personal experience with it.

[Floatingaxe]

Thank you for your comments. I agree with you.

[simpleone]

This trust in the Sovereignty of God at the foundation of my faith,
carried me through every difficulty of my life with peace and sometimes even joy.


Trust in the goodness and Sovereignty of God brings peace and joy.

That's my own personal experience with it.

:amen:

Trusting and depending on God is such a wonderful and relieving thing :)

take care!

[JimfromOhio]

I used to be a student of the WOF movement for a couple of years.
I got into it about 6 years after I was born again.
I liked the fact that I learned how to stand on the word in faith,
but there was an insidious side-effect that I did not like at all.

When I was a brand new Christian,
the first verse I memorized and walked in when I had trouble was:
"All things work together for the good of those who love God..."
This verse helped me trust God through all things- even if they seemed bad-
because I knew they would ultimately turn out for my good, as God promised.
This trust in the Sovereignty of God at the foundation of my faith,
carried me through every difficulty of my life with peace and sometimes even joy.

The WOF teaching stole my trust in the Sovereignty of God
because it teaches if I have enough faith, I am in charge of my destiny.
If I don't have enough faith then it's my own fault I have pain in my life.
All of a sudden I am in control of my life, God is not.
Trouble in my life means that I am a failure, and a subject of ridicule to those who have more faith than I do.
Someone even told Joni Earekson Tada that she could get up out of her wheelchair if she had enough faith!
Oh really!
So the last 30 years of her life spent championing the cause of the handicapped hasn't been important?!
Do you think she could have done that without her wheelchair?
I don't think so!

I am glad I've got my faith and trust in God back.
I know how to walk in faith,
but if I am not healed,
it is not a matter for condemnation.
God knows best and I trust in that.
Trouble and trials are good for Christians.
They build character, perseverance and trust in the faithfulness of God,
besides other excellent character qualities.

My husband was laid off from his job, and I was terrified.
I was mostly terrified because I knew I didn't have faith, as I had had at other times.
I was not confident or secure in the word.
I could not drum up faith no matter how hard I tried.
You know what happened?
God was faithful even though I was faithless!
We made it through those months of difficult financial struggles even though I didn't have a shred of faith.

I learned that my ability to have faith does not control my life.
God is in control.

This scripture reminds me most of the WOF movement:

Psa 12:3 May the LORD cut off all flattering lips,
and the tongue that speaks proud things,
Psa 12:4 who have said,
"With our tongue we will prevail,
our lips are our own;
who is lord over us?"

I respond:
My lips are not my own.
I was bought with a price.
Jesus Christ is LORD over me.

Recently, a friend was all upset because she is a WOF devotee and a cancer patient she was praying for died.
She couldn't comprehend the fact that God has the right to take us home whenever He chooses.
That is a dangerous place to be in.
That theology is not sound.


WOF brought lack of peace and joy into my life.
Life is scary when you're in control.

Trust in the goodness and Sovereignty of God brings peace and joy.

That's my own personal experience with it.

I agree. God is a sovereign God and we have to understand that somehow, mysteriously, within the framework of predestination and within the framework of His sovereignty. God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise choice that man's will is free because God is sovereign. In my life, I have learned to trust every situation to God's sovereign control. "God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work." (2 Corinthians 9:8). Not until we have become humble and teachable, standing in awe of God's holiness and sovereignty... acknowledging our own littleness, distrusting our own thoughts, and willing to have our minds turned upside down, can divine wisdom become ours.

Its not about "me" but rather about GOD.

[forrestcupp]

Paul instructed us to “count it joy” when we suffered for Christ’s sake. How does that line up with a doctrine that says God never wants you to suffer?

As you read through the New Testament and look at the lives of those who wrote it you that they lived a life full of suffering and hardship. They write about how God used this to perfect them and how He gives grace to overcome.

But to be fair about it, the Bible is talking about suffering for Christ, not just suffering in general.

1 Pet. 2:19-20 teaches us that it is honorable to suffer unjustly for the sake of Christ, but there's no honor in just suffering for the sake of suffering.

I don't know why God doesn't heal some people, but I do know that He does heal some. And I'll bet someone has a better chance of being healed if they are willing to believe that God might do it, and they are willing to receive healing from Him.

But even if things don't work out how I would like them to, in the eternal picture, my worst possible sufferings are no more than being annoyed by a fly landing on my face.

[jeolmstead]

But to be fair about it, the Bible is talking about suffering for Christ, not just suffering in general.

1 Pet. 2:19-20 teaches us that it is honorable to suffer unjustly for the sake of Christ, but there's no honor in just suffering for the sake of suffering.

I don't know why God doesn't heal some people, but I do know that He does heal some. And I'll bet someone has a better chance of being healed if they are willing to believe that God might do it, and they are willing to receive healing from Him.

But even if things don't work out how I would like them to, in the eternal picture, my worst possible sufferings are no more than being annoyed by a fly landing on my face.
Isn't that what I said?

John O.

[NorrinRadd]

It seems that WOF seems to discount the consequences for actions. If you don't take proper care of yourself and so on, you will get sick. Disease was brought into this world as a consequence to Adam and Eve's actions. It seems that some denominations try to put all the blame on Satan and the fact is that we have to deal with the consequences of our actions.

There is a "zap" mentality that is not limited to WOF circles. It's easier to ask God for a miraculous deliverance from sin or sickness than to examine one's own choices.

And in terms of WOF, in reality the case is sometimes unfortunately almost the opposite of what you state. Sometimes if a person remains unhealed after a rather long duration, "Job's comforters" will "helpfully" suggest the problem is unrepented sin or unbelief on the victim's part.

It always gives me twisted pleasure to point out that the only time Jesus told someone that failure to heal or deliver was a result of lack of faith, He was NOT talking to the sick person, but to His "anointed" preachers! It was THEIR lack of faith.

[NorrinRadd]

Paul instructed us to “count it joy” when we suffered for Christ’s sake. How does that line up with a doctrine that says God never wants you to suffer? ...

Nitpick: WOFfers don't say that we are NEVER to suffer AT ALL. They say we are not to suffer from SICKNESS.

I don't think Scripture supports such an absolute position.

[NorrinRadd]

...

The WOF teaching stole my trust in the Sovereignty of God
because it teaches if I have enough faith, I am in charge of my destiny.
If I don't have enough faith then it's my own fault I have pain in my life.
All of a sudden I am in control of my life, God is not.
Trouble in my life means that I am a failure, and a subject of ridicule to those who have more faith than I do.

This is a good point. I sometimes refer to WOF as a form of hyper-Arminianism. It can easily heap an unbearable burden of responsibility on the believer, and turn "faith" into a "work."



Someone even told Joni Earekson Tada that she could get up out of her wheelchair if she had enough faith!That would almost certainly NOT have happened at the WOF church I attended. However, one time I visited another WOF church in the area, and actually heard a congregant say that about a person there in a wheelchair. I almost fell out my own rearend!


...
This scripture reminds me most of the WOF movement:

Psa 12:3 ...The "positive confession" of the church of Laodicea in Rev. 3:17 always reminds me of WOF.



WOF brought lack of peace and joy into my life.Yeah, if you are always concerned about making the right "confession" and having "enough" faith, it's hard to have peace. And then if you realize you are not at peace, you know for sure your faith is lacking, and you're in trouble. But you hesitate to tell anyone, because that would be a "bad confession."

[FallingWaters]

...Yeah, if you are always concerned about making the right "confession" and having "enough" faith, it's hard to have peace. And then if you realize you are not at peace, you know for sure your faith is lacking, and you're in trouble. But you hesitate to tell anyone, because that would be a "bad confession."LOL! I remember it well!

[Floatingaxe]

Nitpick: WOFfers don't say that we are NEVER to suffer AT ALL. They say we are not to suffer from SICKNESS.

I don't think Scripture supports such an absolute position.


Extreme WOF proponents believe that. I know no one who does, personally, including myself.

Broad brush painters can do a lot of damage.

[JAS4Yeshua]

Extreme WOF proponents believe that. I know no one who does, personally, including myself.

Broad brush painters can do a lot of damage.
I agree. I think we all should stop lumping everyone in with the extremes from any category.

[JimfromOhio]

WOF is very confusing and very competive. To me, its all based on "works of faith" rather than true word of faith in a biblical sense.

[Floatingaxe]

WOF is very confusing and very competive. To me, its all based on "works of faith" rather than true word of faith in a biblical sense.


"It's all" is the kind of broad brushstrokes I was referring to...

My experience is the opposite. Right and rewarding faith in God is not works-based.

[Redheadedstepchild]

I think many WOF people would say something more along the lines that it is part of the "good fight of faith."

"Spiritual warfare" would more likely be intercessory prayer where one is binding the strong man, binding demons and loosing angels, tearing down strongholds, etc. (I don't happen to agree that those are correct understandings of "binding and loosing" and "tearing down strongholds," but that's another matter.)

Hmm, now I am confused about spiritual warfare and intercessory prayer. Sounds like another thread...you can start it.:thumbsup:

[Redheadedstepchild]

It seems that WOF seems to discount the consequences for actions. If you don't take proper care of yourself and so on, you will get sick. Disease was brought into this world as a consequence to Adam and Eve's actions. It seems that some denominations try to put all the blame on Satan and the fact is that we have to deal with the consequences of our actions.
I think there is truth in this, and it's not limited to WOFers.

I wasn't meaning that at all. Of course faith comes only from God. We are all given the measure of faith. What I meant was that faith is strengthened as we come to intimately know God. It's not something we work up on our own. Faith moving God reminds me of my little boy and me. I kiss him on the cheek a lot. But when he comes up of his own will and with no ulterior motives and he kisses me on the cheek it puts me on top of the world.

I'm sorry, I think I understood this...guess I got sidetracked.

I believe that for various reasons that we can't see, sometimes it's God's will to not heal someone. We don't see the big picture, and to a Christian, dying is the ultimate healing. But I do believe that there are times that it is God's will to heal someone, and they aren't open to receiving it from Him. It's kind of like salvation. It's God's will for all men to be saved. But not all men are open to receiving it from Him.

So my practice is to seek God's will. If I don't get a clear answer, I pray for healing. Then if it doesn't happen, I trust that God knows what is best.

I'm in agreement with all of this.:)

[Redheadedstepchild]

I am not for the wof stuff and find it hard to accept some stuff there....but then again no "group" is perfect.
I believe God is in control - not us and God has given us the faith to believe in him and it is he who works in us to accomplish things...

Maybe I am wrong here but it seems to me (my opinion) - that the wof stuff is very focused on the present - on the present world and fixing stuff here...which is ok to an extent but in the grand scheme of things - this world is temporary and not my home...I don't really want to get comfortable here coz - again - its not my home :) ...and I know I will be in my real home soon! :tutu: ...

Good point!!!

I used to be a student of the WOF movement for a couple of years.
I got into it about 6 years after I was born again.
I liked the fact that I learned how to stand on the word in faith,
but there was an insidious side-effect that I did not like at all.

When I was a brand new Christian,
the first verse I memorized and walked in when I had trouble was:
"All things work together for the good of those who love God..."
This verse helped me trust God through all things- even if they seemed bad-
because I knew they would ultimately turn out for my good, as God promised.
This trust in the Sovereignty of God at the foundation of my faith,
carried me through every difficulty of my life with peace and sometimes even joy.

The WOF teaching stole my trust in the Sovereignty of God
because it teaches if I have enough faith, I am in charge of my destiny.
If I don't have enough faith then it's my own fault I have pain in my life.
All of a sudden I am in control of my life, God is not.
Trouble in my life means that I am a failure, and a subject of ridicule to those who have more faith than I do.
Someone even told Joni Earekson Tada that she could get up out of her wheelchair if she had enough faith!
Oh really!
So the last 30 years of her life spent championing the cause of the handicapped hasn't been important?!
Do you think she could have done that without her wheelchair?
I don't think so!

I am glad I've got my faith and trust in God back.
I know how to walk in faith,
but if I am not healed,
it is not a matter for condemnation.
God knows best and I trust in that.
Trouble and trials are good for Christians.
They build character, perseverance and trust in the faithfulness of God,
besides other excellent character qualities.

My husband was laid off from his job, and I was terrified.
I was mostly terrified because I knew I didn't have faith, as I had had at other times.
I was not confident or secure in the word.
I could not drum up faith no matter how hard I tried.
You know what happened?
God was faithful even though I was faithless!
We made it through those months of difficult financial struggles even though I didn't have a shred of faith.

I learned that my ability to have faith does not control my life.
God is in control.

This scripture reminds me most of the WOF movement:

Psa 12:3 May the LORD cut off all flattering lips,
and the tongue that speaks proud things,
Psa 12:4 who have said,
"With our tongue we will prevail,
our lips are our own;
who is lord over us?"

I respond:
My lips are not my own.
I was bought with a price.
Jesus Christ is LORD over me.

Recently, a friend was all upset because she is a WOF devotee and a cancer patient she was praying for died.
She couldn't comprehend the fact that God has the right to take us home whenever He chooses.
That is a dangerous place to be in.
That theology is not sound.


WOF brought lack of peace and joy into my life.
Life is scary when you're in control.

Trust in the goodness and Sovereignty of God brings peace and joy.

That's my own personal experience with it.


Thank you sooo much for sharing your experience. Your post was particularly meaningful to me. "God was faithful even though I was faithless!" That's beautiful.:)

[~RENEE~]

If I may make a suggestion Red. Those that are WOF and posting in here can get in trouble for debating in this subforum. So I propose having this moved to the main forum. So that you can get all sides of the equation.

[Redheadedstepchild]

If I may make a suggestion Red. Those that are WOF and posting in here can get in trouble for debating in this subforum. So I propose having this moved to the main forum. So that you can get all sides of the equation.

I appreciate what you are saying. I don't want this thread to be a debate, however, any more than it already has been. Personally I'd get sidetracked (I'm a little ADD). As I said in the OP I am open to people PMing me. Or, if someone wants to start another thread elsewhere I will definetely go read. :)

[Redheadedstepchild]

"It's all" is the kind of broad brushstrokes I was referring to...

My experience is the opposite. Right and rewarding faith in God is not works-based.

IOW, you have faith in God because he extends that grace to you, not because of what you can get out of it in terms of "works."

Did I get that right?

[Redheadedstepchild]

Paul instructed us to “count it joy” when we suffered for Christ’s sake. How does that line up with a doctrine that says God never wants you to suffer?

As you read through the New Testament and look at the lives of those who wrote it you that they lived a life full of suffering and hardship. They write about how God used this to perfect them and how He gives grace to overcome.

As far as what can tell, all the apostles (with the exception of John) were martyred. Nero lit his garden with “Christian candles” did these people lack faith?
Read Hebrews 11. Read how the bible describes the champions of the faith and compare that to the picture painted by the WOF doctrine.

If all this is true why didn’t it work for those who are now claimed to have inspired it?

The same is true today. There are miracles in the church. There are signs and wonders (as Jesus said there would be) These things happen but they don’t happen the way some claim. The fact that someone believes this doctrine does not make it true. If it was true you would see the evidence of it. The fact is however that those who profess it to be true get sick and die at the same rate and in the same way as everyone else.

John O.

Didn't want to miss this....ty John for the clarification.

[~RENEE~]

I appreciate what you are saying. I don't want this thread to be a debate, however, any more than it already has been. Personally I'd get sidetracked (I'm a little ADD). As I said in the OP I am open to people PMing me. Or, if someone wants to start another thread elsewhere I will definetely go read. :):thumbsup:

[~RENEE~]

Read Hebrews 11. Read how the bible describes the champions of the faith and compare that to the picture painted by the WOF doctrine.But they never stopped having faith. No matter what their mortal eyes said. They still held to the promise. That is Word Of Faith. Hold the promise If It's in His word then hold it no matter what.

[FallingWaters]

Good point!!!

Thank you sooo much for sharing your experience. Your post was particularly meaningful to me. "God was faithful even though I was faithless!" That's beautiful.:)I was actually paraphrasing a scripture:

2Ti 2:13 ESV- if we are faithless, he remains faithful-- for he cannot deny himself.

[lismore]

Nitpick: WOFfers don't say that we are NEVER to suffer AT ALL. They say we are not to suffer from SICKNESS.
.

Hi there:wave:

I've never heard that before. I think the WOF position can be summed up here:

Psalm 34
19 A righteous man may have many troubles,
but the LORD delivers him from them all

Sure there are challenges, but God has promised that he will deliver us from every trouble.

Not 'through' the trouble, but 'from' it.

Amen. Take Care.

:wave:

[Floatingaxe]

IOW, you have faith in God because he extends that grace to you, not because of what you can get out of it in terms of "works."

Did I get that right?

Yes, faith is the gift of God.

[NorrinRadd]

Hmm, now I am confused about spiritual warfare and intercessory prayer. Sounds like another thread...you can start it.:thumbsup:

No, not right now.

Most of the things I cite about WF beliefs and practices are things I've found to be pretty consistent in WF literature and in the WF churches I've attended.

The perspective on intercessory prayer and spiritual warfare I gave was the one held by the churches I attended, but at the moment I'm not sure it was taught in most WF literature. So it *may* not have been quite as common in WF as a whole.

I am "tempted" to look into it... But that would require unpacking and reviewing a bunch of accumulated literature, and I have other more pressing duties.

[ARBITER01]

I read through most of the posts and there seemed to be a common idea promoted as WOF at times,...faith in the word of GOD.

The problem with this is we are to live by the faith of the Son of GOD, not some faith in GOD's written word. We can only have faith in it because of what The Holy Spirit enlightens to our spirit.

Our walk is a relationship with Jesus, not a metaphysical exercise. We are to follow Him and hear The Father speaking directly to our spirits, just like Jesus. We are to grow up into sons of GOD, not be babes the rest of our lives.

I don't mean to sound comdeming here, I'm just identifying something.

[Tamara224]

I read through most of the posts and there seemed to be a common idea promoted as WOF at times,...faith in the word of GOD.

The problem with this is we are to live by the faith of the Son of GOD, not some faith in GOD's written word. We can only have faith in it because of what The Holy Spirit enlightens to our spirit.

Our walk is a relationship with Jesus, not a metaphysical exercise. We are to follow Him and hear The Father speaking directly to our spirits, just like Jesus. We are to grow up into sons of GOD, not be babes the rest of our lives.

I don't mean to sound comdeming here, I'm just identifying something.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[lismore]

The problem with this is we are to live by the faith of the Son of GOD, not some faith in GOD's written word. .

Hey man the Son of God is also the word made flesh (John 1:1-8).

[Redheadedstepchild]

No, not right now.

Most of the things I cite about WF beliefs and practices are things I've found to be pretty consistent in WF literature and in the WF churches I've attended.

The perspective on intercessory prayer and spiritual warfare I gave was the one held by the churches I attended, but at the moment I'm not sure it was taught in most WF literature. So it *may* not have been quite as common in WF as a whole.

I am "tempted" to look into it... But that would require unpacking and reviewing a bunch of accumulated literature, and I have other more pressing duties.
That's fine, I was halfway kidding. I am interested in the topic but like you I have other things I'm dealing with. :)

[Redheadedstepchild]

I read through most of the posts and there seemed to be a common idea promoted as WOF at times,...faith in the word of GOD.

The problem with this is we are to live by the faith of the Son of GOD, not some faith in GOD's written word. We can only have faith in it because of what The Holy Spirit enlightens to our spirit.

Our walk is a relationship with Jesus, not a metaphysical exercise. We are to follow Him and hear The Father speaking directly to our spirits, just like Jesus. We are to grow up into sons of GOD, not be babes the rest of our lives.

I don't mean to sound comdeming here, I'm just identifying something.
Thank you for posting this...something else for me to ponder.

[JAS4Yeshua]

My opinion. A lot of emphasis seems to be placed on speaking faith, instead of faith itself. It is often the thought that you have to speak out and believe, or else it isn't faith. If things haven't changed, then you either don't have enough faith, or the right view of faith. More power appears to be placed in "faith" than in God, IMO.

God never categorized levels of faith, nor did He turn anyone away because their faith was weak. He told us that we only need the faith of a mustard seed. I take that faith, whatever amount I have, and I put it wholly into God and let Him do His perfect work in my life, regardless of circumstances.

[ARBITER01]

Hey man the Son of God is also the word made flesh (John 1:1-8).

That is true, but that doesn't mean our bibles also have a life unto themselves somehow. The words written in them are truth, but it takes The Holy Spirit quickening those words to our spirit to give life to us.

We need the word illuminated to us by The Holy Spirit, but more than that, we need to hear from the Son of GOD, the living word, directly in prayer.

[FallingWaters]

...God never categorized levels of faith, nor did He turn anyone away because their faith was weak.
Mat 6:30 ESV-
But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

Mat 8:26 ESV-
And he said to them, "Why are you afraid, O you of little faith?" Then he rose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.

Mat 14:31 ESV-
Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"

Mat 16:8 ESV-
But Jesus, aware of this, said, "O you of little faith, why are you discussing among yourselves the fact that you have no bread?

Mat 17:20 ESV-
He said to them, "Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you."

Luk 12:28 ESV-
But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith!

Mat 8:10 ESV-
When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, "Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.

Mat 15:28 ESV-
Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.

I think these scriptures show that there are levels of faith.

[jeolmstead]

Mat 6:30 ESV-
But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

Mat 8:26 ESV-
And he said to them, "Why are you afraid, O you of little faith?" Then he rose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.

Mat 14:31 ESV-
Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"

Mat 16:8 ESV-
But Jesus, aware of this, said, "O you of little faith, why are you discussing among yourselves the fact that you have no bread?

Mat 17:20 ESV-
He said to them, "Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you."

Luk 12:28 ESV-
But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith!

Mat 8:10 ESV-
When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, "Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.

Mat 15:28 ESV-
Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.

I think these scriptures show that there are levels of faith.
And what was Jesus’ reaction to those he identified as having great faith verses those He identified as little?

He treated them both the same way. He healed those with “little faith” just like He healed those with “great faith”

Their level of faith seems to have neither hindered nor helped. (at least in the examples we have in scripture)

John O.

[JAS4Yeshua]

And what was Jesus’ reaction to those he identified as having great faith verses those He identified as little?

He treated them both the same way. He healed those with “little faith” just like He healed those with “great faith”

Their level of faith seems to have neither hindered nor helped. (at least in the examples we have in scripture)

John O.
Exactly, which was my point. ;)

[FallingWaters]

Mat 13:58 ESV-
And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

I think Jesus rewards our faith and withholds from unbelief.
Unbelief can be partial.

Mar 9:24 ESV-
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!"

[JAS4Yeshua]

Matthew 13:58 is taken out of context. In that case, there was a complete lack of faith, not a partial one. That is why Jesus withheld there.

Any other case of faith mentioned, even if there was a little unbelief, was treated the same. In fact, even Jesus said that you only needed the faith of a mustard seed in order to do great things. A mustard seed is VERY little.

[lismore]

That is true, but that doesn't mean our bibles also have a life unto themselves somehow.
.

But:

Hebrews 4:12 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Hebrews 4:12&niv=yes)
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.



The words written in them are truth, but it takes The Holy Spirit quickening those words to our spirit to give life to us.

We need the word illuminated to us by The Holy Spirit, but more than that, we need to hear from the Son of GOD, the living word, directly in prayer.


I agree:wave:

[ARBITER01]

But:

Hebrews 4:12 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Hebrews 4:12&niv=yes)
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Let's look at the quote in context,..


12 (ASV) For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two–edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 (ASV) And there is no creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


You made a great point, but the passage is describing Jesus, The Word of GOD, not our bibles.

[jeolmstead]

Mat 13:58 ESV-
And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

I think Jesus rewards our faith and withholds from unbelief.
Unbelief can be partial.

Mar 9:24 ESV-
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!"
Yes, Jesus didn’t do many great works in his home town (except heal a few sick people) because of their unbelief….

Unbelief here however is not some ethereal negative force that cancels out their faith. All this is saying is they didn’t believe in Him. Hence, they didn’t ask. (except for a few sick people, which the scripture indicated that he did heal)

This is in agreement with what James taught:

You have not because you ask not……


As for the man who confesses his doubt, Jesus heals his son anyway (because he asked, not because he suddenly developed ”great faith”)

John O.

[Floatingaxe]

Jesus also healed people on the basis of the faith of others as well. The man let down on a bed through the roof of the house was healed because of the faith of his friends! I love that!

It spurs me on to uphold others before the throne.

[robbymac]

I've always loved the story of the guy at the Pool of Bethesda -- he has zero faith but a lot of whining, but Jesus heals him anyways.

Also interesting is that when there are tons of people waiting in Bethesda for healing, Jesus only heals one guy -- the whiner.

Food for thought!

[ANM29]

I've always loved the story of the guy at the Pool of Bethesda -- he has zero faith but a lot of whining, but Jesus heals him anyways.

Also interesting is that when there are tons of people waiting in Bethesda for healing, Jesus only heals one guy -- the whiner.

Food for thought!

That is how our God works. The blind man was whining and begging for Jesus to heal him, along with a few others. He heals because he is full of compassion and mercy. He gives us many things we did not have Faith for, or even know we needed. He is a merciful God.:)

[Tenebrae]

Ok you arent wof yet you carry a wof icon?

I'm confused

I am not Word of Faith, but I will always refuse a negative report. I refuse to speak it also. Every person I know who has refused a negative report has had their healing: eye disease averted; kidney transplant averted due to previously failed transplant suddenly made whole; deadly heart defect in newborn healed at doctor's amazement; breast cancer healed; child's cancerous tumours on kidneys disappeared; unknown mystery disease of pain and paralysis of a normal able-bodied man healed; a couple where the husband is diagnosed as totally sterile has a beautiful baby boy!

All these and more are reports from those in our own church where we are taught that we need to rebuke a negative report. God wants us to be healthy and able to do His will. Satan is the author of disease, and he will come against those who are influential for the Kingdom..count on it. Accepting sickness of any kind is agreeing with him


I myself have not been physically sick in years...no colds for decades. Bronchitis has been said to be a weakness, though, but the Lord has healed me from that, and I haven't suffered from it in about 5 years now


Refusing to even say, "I have___________", is a good thing! We say, "They say I have____________, but I know that I am whole in Jesus' name."

[Tenebrae]

"It's all" is the kind of broad brushstrokes I was referring to...

My experience is the opposite. Right and rewarding faith in God is not works-based.


Look, just because you've had a positive experience, it does not mean that every bodies experience has been positive nor does it make the testimony of those who have had a negative experience any less valid

[Tenebrae]

And what was Jesus’ reaction to those he identified as having great faith verses those He identified as little?

He treated them both the same way. He healed those with “little faith” just like He healed those with “great faith”

Their level of faith seems to have neither hindered nor helped. (at least in the examples we have in scripture)

John O.Well said

[NorrinRadd]

I must have missed this one the first time through the thread:

I am not Word of Faith, but I will always refuse a negative report. I refuse to speak it also. Every person I know who has refused a negative report has had their healing: eye disease averted; kidney transplant averted due to previously failed transplant suddenly made whole; deadly heart defect in newborn healed at doctor's amazement; breast cancer healed; child's cancerous tumours on kidneys disappeared; unknown mystery disease of pain and paralysis of a normal able-bodied man healed; a couple where the husband is diagnosed as totally sterile has a beautiful baby boy!

All these and more are reports from those in our own church where we are taught that we need to rebuke a negative report. God wants us to be healthy and able to do His will. Satan is the author of disease, and he will come against those who are influential for the Kingdom..count on it. Accepting sickness of any kind is agreeing with him


I myself have not been physically sick in years...no colds for decades. Bronchitis has been said to be a weakness, though, but the Lord has healed me from that, and I haven't suffered from it in about 5 years now


Refusing to even say, "I have___________", is a good thing! We say, "They say I have____________, but I know that I am whole in Jesus' name."

So... In Matt. 8:23-24, the "right" thing for the blind man to do would have been to say, "Oh, praise God, yes, I'm healed!" Instead he gave a "bad report" by answering, "I see people, but they look like trees walking around."

[Floatingaxe]

Look, just because you've had a positive experience, it does not mean that every bodies experience has been positive nor does it make the testimony of those who have had a negative experience any less valid


Negative faith experience?

[Floatingaxe]

I must have missed this one the first time through the thread:



So... In Matt. 8:23-24, the "right" thing for the blind man to do would have been to say, "Oh, praise God, yes, I'm healed!" Instead he gave a "bad report" by answering, "I see people, but they look like trees walking around."

That was no bad report. That was a demonstration of a miracle healing done in stages--which we often see today. It was a report of healing power going on.

[simpleone]

I read through most of the posts and there seemed to be a common idea promoted as WOF at times,...faith in the word of GOD.

The problem with this is we are to live by the faith of the Son of GOD, not some faith in GOD's written word. We can only have faith in it because of what The Holy Spirit enlightens to our spirit.

Our walk is a relationship with Jesus, not a metaphysical exercise. We are to follow Him and hear The Father speaking directly to our spirits, just like Jesus. We are to grow up into sons of GOD, not be babes the rest of our lives.

I don't mean to sound comdeming here, I'm just identifying something.

Nice point...

Its about an intimate and yet powerful relationship/partnership with Jesus and guidance by the Holy Spirit...and talking to God daily - and depending on Him for everything including healing and provision :)

Not simply saying words as in a some sort of formula or depending on words...this anyone - even a non believer can do..:scratch:

...also not coming down on anyone...just a good point :wave:

[ANM29]

I read through most of the posts and there seemed to be a common idea promoted as WOF at times,...faith in the word of GOD.

The problem with this is we are to live by the faith of the Son of GOD, not some faith in GOD's written word. We can only have faith in it because of what The Holy Spirit enlightens to our spirit.

Our walk is a relationship with Jesus, not a metaphysical exercise. We are to follow Him and hear The Father speaking directly to our spirits, just like Jesus. We are to grow up into sons of GOD, not be babes the rest of our lives.

I don't mean to sound comdeming here, I'm just identifying something.

:thumbsup: In real life as well. I hardly hear anything on prayer and fasting among other thing......Sooooo, out of balance.

[lismore]

Its about an intimate and yet powerful relationship/partnership with Jesus and guidance by the Holy Spirit...and talking to God daily - and depending on Him for everything including healing and provision :)

Not simply saying words as in a some sort of formula or depending on words...this anyone - even a non believer can do..:scratch:


I agree, its not a formula its a relationship. The new covenant is just that:

Jeremiah 31:

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

:)

[SpiritPsalmist]

Part of the problem with many WOF people is that they are compelled to "confess their healing" which means they'll say that they aren't sick when really they are. They have been taught that to acknowledge sickness is to have a "negative confession" and then they won't be healed.

We visited a WOF church once a couple of years ago, and they had the "leg-lengthening" healing time at the front, and my kids were so blown away -- "Daddy, did you hear that? EVERYONE was healed?"

Of course, we had no choice but to let our kids talk to those who had received prayer, and they quickly found out that NONE of them had been healed, but they still "confess healing" anyway. It's all part of their theology on speaking the "word of faith" about healing until their bodies catch up to their words.

So, when non-WOF people accuse them of deliberately lying, that's not really fair. Yes, they're not telling the truth, but it's not based in a desire to deceive, it's just that their theology prevents them from
speaking anything that might be labelled "negative confession".

I hope that helps!
I do understand what you are saying here, however, my understanding of it was that I was not to deny that my body was rebelling with The Word but that I was to deny it's right to rebel. In other words, instead of saying "I'm sick" I should say "my body is doing such 'n such but HE says "I'm healed". Instead of saying "my diabetes", I say the doctor (human) is treating me for diabetes, but according to The Word by HIS stripes I am healed". It seems to be a matter more of ownership or non-ownership of a rebellion of my body with the Word of God.

It's not dependance on our word but HIS.

[bithiah2]

God holds all power in His hands.
i attend a Foursquare church, and every Sunday we hold up our Bibles and we say:
This is my Bible
It is the Word of God.
Jesus you are my Lord
I believe what your Word says to me
And I accept what it has to offer.
:amen:
we believe the Word as it is written, and that God is able to do all things, according to His will. He will allow us to go through things, including sickness, poverty, and loss for a purpose. but through it we can still be