A Need To Clear Things Up With You...

[woobadooba]

It has been said, as well as implied, that I consider those who do not keep the 7th day Sabbath holy, but keep Sunday holy in its place, to be apostates. This is utterly false.

And for those people who have said this about me, I think you owe to me to offer up a public apology for bearing false witness against me. There is one person who said this about me in the Ecumenical Reports section, and another that implied this in one of my threads in here. You know who you are. Do what is right, and recant what you have said about me, as it doesn't properly reflect what I believe.

Granted, the Bible makes it very clear that we should keep the Sabbath day holy. I would encourage all to do this, as it is one of God's Ten Commandments. Nevertheless, I wouldn't dare refer to any one of you as apostates because you keep Sunday holy.

An apostate, from what I understand, is one who has completely turned his back on Christ. Moreover, such a person also goes out and bears false witness against the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Who am I to judge you in this way? You haven't given me any reason to make such a claim.

To those who have said such things about me, I ask that you not presume to think for me.

[NewGuy101]

I clearly understand your position. Being misrepresneted is not only hurtful but unbiblical. I however, wouldn't require a public apology insted leave it to the person to be convicted.

[woobadooba]

I clearly understand your position. Being misrepresneted is not only hurtful but unbiblical. I however, wouldn't require a public apology insted leave it to the person to be convicted.

I will leave it up to them to decide what they want to do. If they feel that they should apologize to me, then they will. If not, it won't hurt my relationship with Christ in the least bit.

The important point here however, is that I have made my belief clear to all on this matter.

By the way, I notice that you favor the writings of Schaeffer. He was a great man, and a true Christian.

I like the idea in your signature. As Francis would say in other words, God words ought to be used in a Godward way.

[BlackSabb]

It has been said, as well as implied, that I consider those who do not keep the 7th day Sabbath holy, but keep Sunday holy in its place, to be apostates. This is utterly false.

And for those people who have said this about me, I think you owe to me to offer up a public apology for bearing false witness against me. There is one person who said this about me in the Ecumenical Reports section, and another that implied this in one of my threads in here. You know who you are. Do what is right, and recant what you have said about me, as it doesn't properly reflect what I believe.

Granted, the Bible makes it very clear that we should keep the Sabbath day holy. I would encourage all to do this, as it is one of God's Ten Commandments. Nevertheless, I wouldn't dare refer to any one of you as apostates because you keep Sunday holy.

An apostate, from what I understand, is one who has completely turned his back on Christ. Moreover, such a person also goes out and bears false witness against the true gospel of Jesus Christ.


Now I know that I am one of those people you are referring to. And fair enough too, I did bring the issue up, not you. Now, I am having a few problems understanding you here. Firstly, you say that you regard non Saturday Sabbath keepers as fully Christian. Yet, I know for a fact that you strictly regard keeping the Sabbath, as per SDA convention, on the Saturday. And furthermore, anyone who doesn't do this in your eyes, cannot be an SDA.

Here is link to an SDA forum. Your response is at the bottom, stating clearly your position:

http://foru.ms/t6051991-pre-poll-discussion-should-debate-on-the-sabbath-be-allowed-or-teaching-against-it.html&page=3


Who am I to judge you in this way? You haven't given me any reason to make such a claim.

To those who have said such things about me, I ask that you not presume to think for me.


I don't understand. On another forum dominatied by non SDAs, you are quite casual about the Sabbath, and yet on your own forum, you show your true position, which is anything but casual.

Now, to demonstrate my point that SDAs don't regard other Christian denominations as really Christian, have a read of another poster in the same SDA forum:

http://foru.ms/t6006263-keeping-the-seventh-day-sabbath-tells-people-who-you-worship.html

This man clearly stipulates that non Saturday Sabbath keepers are not Christians.

Here is another one. Look at how the original poster describes the SDA church as the only true church because they are the only Christian demonination keeping the Sabbath:

http://foru.ms/t2028119-how-to-find-the-true-church-in-the-last-days.html


Here is another link where our dear friend is lamenting how other people are coming onto the SDA site and "distorting" their teachings:

http://foru.ms/t5672109-i-had-hoped.html

I'm sorry, but this is all very confusing to me. You claim fellowship with other non SDA Christians, but in reality, you are a staunchly fervent Sabbath
keeper, and you are against progressive SDAs. If you are in opposition to less conservative SDAs, how then can you be in support of non SDA Chrisitians?

But if I am wrong, I will be the first to eat humble pie and publicly apologise. I publicly stated all this, therefore I should either publicly prove or demonstrate my point of view, or publicly apologise.

[woobadooba]

Now, I am having a few problems understanding you here. Firstly, you say that you regard non Saturday Sabbath keepers as fully Christian. Yet, I know for a fact that you strictly regard keeping the Sabbath, as per SDA convention, on the Saturday. And furthermore, anyone who doesn't do this in your eyes, cannot be an SDA.

That is correct. They can not be an SDA because an SDA is a Seventh-day Adventist. That is, an SDA is one that keeps the seventh day holy, as God commanded.

I don't understand. On another forum dominatied by non SDAs, you are quite casual about the Sabbath, and yet on your own forum, you show your true position, which is anything but casual.

I have not shown myself to be casual about it here or anywhere else. I just simply stated that I don't believe a person is an apostate for keeping Sunday holy in place of Saturday.

However, I also made it clear that keeping the seventh day holy is a command of God. And I will tell you right now that anyone who isn't keeping this command of God, while knowing that it is still binding, is being disobedient to God.

So you will see that I am not sugar-coating anything. You will try to destroy my reputation in here and mar my character by trying to make me appear to be double-minded, but I will show you that I am transparent. I have nothing to hide.

Now, to demonstrate my point that SDAs don't regard other Christian denominations as really Christian, have a read of another poster in the same SDA forum:

http://foru.ms/t6006263-keeping-the-seventh-day-sabbath-tells-people-who-you-worship.html


But this is not my opinion. Why are you trying to make it appear as though I think the same way as this one?

Here is another one. Look at how the original poster describes the SDA church as the only true church because they are the only Christian demonination keeping the Sabbath:

http://foru.ms/t2028119-how-to-find-the-true-church-in-the-last-days.html


Again, this is someone else. Why would you even bring this comment in here? Aren't I the one who is on trial here? It appears that you are just looking to make a farce out of the SDA church via these examples, when in fact we don't all think the same way.

Here is another link where our dear friend is lamenting how other people are coming onto the SDA site and "distorting" their teachings:

http://foru.ms/t5672109-i-had-hoped.html

I was more concerned about problematic people that would go into our forum and give us a hard time, as we had such experiences in the past that caused a lot of people to leave our forum.

By the way, it is the SDA forum. It's a place where we shouldn't have to deal with problematic people that like to do nothing else but argue with us over what we believe. What else do you think it should be?

I'm sorry, but this is all very confusing to me. You claim fellowship with other non SDA Christians, but in reality, you are a staunchly fervent Sabbath
keeper, and you are against progressive SDAs. If you are in opposition to less conservative SDAs, how then can you be in support of non SDA Chrisitians?

The Progressives that I oppose are the liberals that do nothing but complain about my church and its doctrines. Moreover, several of them use a higher critical approach to the study of the Bible, and thereby espouse views that are considered to be heretical according to the standard teachings of the Bible. Do you think I should favor such people?

[BlackSabb]

That is correct. They can not be an SDA because an SDA is a Seventh-day Adventist. That is, an SDA is one that keeps the seventh day holy, as God commanded.


However, I also made it clear that keeping the seventh day holy is a command of God. And I will tell you right now that anyone who isn't keeping this command of God, while knowing that it is still binding, is being disobedient to God. I have not shown myself to be casual about it here or anywhere else. I just simply stated that I don't believe a person is an apostate for keeping Sunday holy in place of Saturday.



Firstly, you are not "on trial" as you put it. And I am not "attacking" you. I am just trying to figure some things out. I don't mean to give you that impression, and I am very sorry if that is what you feel, dear brother.

Your quote shows me what is the crux of the problem. You clearly state that anyone who does not keep a Sabbath day holy, whether it is the Saturday or Sunday, is disobedient to God, and obviously, not a Christian.

And here is the problem as I see it. You supposedly "accept" Sunday worshippers as to you, they are still keeping some sort of Sabbath, albeit on the wrong day, in your eyes. As in your highlighted post, you clearly say, " keeping Sunday holy in place of Saturday", therefore implying a form of Sabbath keeping.

However, people who go to church on Sunday are not keeping the Sabbath!! They are merely having fellowship on Sunday. Sunday church people could easily have fellowship on any other day of the week. Furthermore, as to properly keeping the Sabbath, Sunday church people are not restricted by certain rules on what they can and cannot do on their Sunday-a very important proviso about what constitues keeping the Sabbath.

People who go to church on Sunday morning can easily go and mow the lawn in the afternoon-something that true Sabbath keepers cannot do. So Sunday church attenders are not keeping any form of Sabbath.

So here is the original problem. In reality, you are not accepting other Christians that do not keep the Sabbath, and in fact, your very own words show this. As I have shown, you attempt to show unity with other believers by finding a loophole stating that they are keeping a form of Sabbath. But they are not as I have shown you. That is what you make up to include them as brothers and sisters. And you yourself clearly state that if someone does not keep a Sabbath, (either on the correct or incorrect day), then they are not Christians.

If I could give you an anology. It would be like me saying for eg, that Buddhists are also Christians because Buddhists practice and teach self denial, and love of their fellow man, like Jesus did. In the same way you attempt to sanctify other Christians by calling their Sunday fellowship a "Sabbath". But it isn't, and in your very own words, they are clearly not Christians.

But again, peace, love and friendship. Surely we can have debates and discussions without having to be accused of "attacks". I may be questioning your statements but I am not "attacking" you.

I tell you what. As you have felt attacked by me, I give you free permission to attack me. As my favourite band is Black Sabbath, go on and call me a false Christian for enjoying this music.

I'd be happy if you did. Get me back. Then we'll be even.

[Debi1967]

It has been said, as well as implied, that I consider those who do not keep the 7th day Sabbath holy, but keep Sunday holy in its place, to be apostates. This is utterly false.

And for those people who have said this about me, I think you owe to me to offer up a public apology for bearing false witness against me. There is one person who said this about me in the Ecumenical Reports section, and another that implied this in one of my threads in here. You know who you are. Do what is right, and recant what you have said about me, as it doesn't properly reflect what I believe.

Granted, the Bible makes it very clear that we should keep the Sabbath day holy. I would encourage all to do this, as it is one of God's Ten Commandments. Nevertheless, I wouldn't dare refer to any one of you as apostates because you keep Sunday holy.

An apostate, from what I understand, is one who has completely turned his back on Christ. Moreover, such a person also goes out and bears false witness against the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Who am I to judge you in this way? You haven't given me any reason to make such a claim.

To those who have said such things about me, I ask that you not presume to think for me.
I categorically apologize then as you are right I have not seen you say that in that exact wording I have just seen you defend the Sabbath to the point of making someone feel they are wrong for not believing the same way you do. In that there is a difference though.

Lovingly In Christ
Debi

[Debi1967]

I clearly understand your position. Being misrepresneted is not only hurtful but unbiblical. I however, wouldn't require a public apology insted leave it to the person to be convicted.
Not a big deal I have debated him before on this subject in GT many times and he knows how he comes across about the Sabbath and non-Sabbath keepers .... I apologized for my part only because I never actually said apostate but I indeed have seen him negate the beliefs of Sunday worshipers as being unholy.

[woobadooba]

Not a big deal I have debated him before on this subject in GT many times and he knows how he comes across about the Sabbath and non-Sabbath keepers .... I apologized for my part only because I never actually said apostate but I indeed have seen him negate the beliefs of Sunday worshipers as being unholy.

If what you are teaching does not agree with the Bible, then yes, it is not of God.

Should you expect me to declare a teaching to be holy when in fact it does not agree with the word of God?

[woobadooba]

I categorically apologize then as you are right I have not seen you say that in that exact wording I have just seen you defend the Sabbath to the point of making someone feel they are wrong for not believing the same way you do. In that there is a difference though.

Lovingly In Christ
Debi

And I will continue to champion it. So far I haven't met anyone that has been able to defend their argument AGAINST it with any success.

In fact, I would be more than willing to tackle it with you again in the debate section for all to see.

[woobadooba]

Firstly, you are not "on trial" as you put it. And I am not "attacking" you. I am just trying to figure some things out. I don't mean to give you that impression, and I am very sorry if that is what you feel, dear brother.

Your quote shows me what is the crux of the problem. You clearly state that anyone who does not keep a Sabbath day holy, whether it is the Saturday or Sunday, is disobedient to God, and obviously, not a Christian.

And here is the problem as I see it. You supposedly "accept" Sunday worshippers as to you, they are still keeping some sort of Sabbath, albeit on the wrong day, in your eyes. As in your highlighted post, you clearly say, " keeping Sunday holy in place of Saturday", therefore implying a form of Sabbath keeping.

You misunderstood what I had said. What I am saying is that the 7th day is the true Sabbath of God. Those who worship God on Sunday are not wrong for doing so, as there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that it is wrong to worship God on Sunday.

Nevertheless, there are those that do not keep the seventh day holy, but keep Sunday holy in its place, thus identifying that as the new Sabbath day. This is not true according to the Bible, as the Bible never refers to Sunday in this way, but continues to call it the first day. So if a person is given the truth about the true Sabbath day, and that person persists in not keeping it holy, then that person is being disobedient to God.

Now, I do not wish to discuss this further in here because this is a non-debate area, and I do not want to violate the rules of this forum. Please respect that.

[Debi1967]

And I will continue to champion it. So far I haven't met anyone that has been able to defend their argument AGAINST it with any success.

In fact, I would be more than willing to tackle it with you again in the debate section for all to see.
wooba in case you haven't noticed I don't debate anymore and haven't in a long time now. I am happy to see you here in the Conservative section of the board though and hope that you get to experience what I have here and that is a place of rest and respect from most people.

I have no wish to debate you on which day is the Sabbath. I do personally believe in the Day of the Risen Lord which is the eigth day or Sunday. But that is my own convictions I am not here to say that you are wrong for your convictions. Actually as I see it those that respect either day are in accordance with God's word and therefore doing Him honor and worshiping Him correctly.

So why would I want to debate you on something I do not disagree with you on. Even in the CC which I used to attend they had a choice of attending Mass on Sabbath Saturday or on Risen Day of the Lord or Easter Sunday which they celebrated every week.

[Lisa0315]

Thread has been moved to the Debate Subforum.

[Debi1967]

Thread has been moved to the Debate Subforum.
Why wooba didn't want to debate the subject in fact there seems to be only one person that does and he seems to following wooba around like a dog in heat.. pardon the expression. That is not woobas fault.

[Lisa0315]

I understand that. However, I am not an experienced mod yet, and I have to wait until two others chime in on the reports to action them. Until that time, please be patient. This was a temporary measure until I get direction on this.

Lisa

[woobadooba]

wooba in case you haven't noticed I don't debate anymore and haven't in a long time now. I am happy to see you here in the Conservative section of the board though and hope that you get to experience what I have here and that is a place of rest and respect from most people.

I have no wish to debate you on which day is the Sabbath. I do personally believe in the Day of the Risen Lord which is the eigth day or Sunday. But that is my own convictions I am not here to say that you are wrong for your convictions. Actually as I see it those that respect either day are in accordance with God's word and therefore doing Him honor and worshiping Him correctly.

So why would I want to debate you on something I do not disagree with you on. Even in the CC which I used to attend they had a choice of attending Mass on Sabbath Saturday or on Risen Day of the Lord or Easter Sunday which they celebrated every week.

I really don't want to debate either, as I have learned from my experience here that debate is often counter-productive to growth in Christ.

I came here because I am tired of arguing with people. I just want to experience some real fellowship.

I had hoped that by coming here I could get away from people attacking me, but I was obviously wrong.

[Debi1967]

I really don't want to debate either, as I have learned from my experience here that debate is often counter-productive to growth in Christ.

I came here because I am tired of arguing with people. I just want to experience some real fellowship.

I had hoped that by coming here I could get away from people attacking me, but I was obviously wrong.

Hopefully the situation will be taken care of soon and then you may find some rest here with us.

[JimfromOhio]

1. Grace versus Legalism in Sabbath
2. Method of Sabbath system
3. Obedience versus heart
4. Heart versus action
5. Much more.

I have learned and believe that the Old Testament regulations governing Sabbath observances were ceremonial. The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

Everyday, we are to worship and fellowship. Only one day a week, we are to REST from our daily activities (of the 7th day of our working cycle). We need to remember that the legal issue is not the Sabbath anymore but Grace of practice. Grace is about loving other people that we have the freedom to do so but at the same time, respect how they practice their beliefs. In Romans 14:5 "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." 1 Corinthians 10:28-29 "both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake, the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?" Everyone will have different view based on their "convictions".

We are to be careful of those who practice "Sabbath" differently than other Christians. In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath). In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).

[NewGuy101]

1. Grace versus Legalism in Sabbath
2. Method of Sabbath system
3. Obedience versus heart
4. Heart versus action
5. Much more.

I have learned and believe that the Old Testament regulations governing Sabbath observances were ceremonial. The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

Everyday, we are to worship and fellowship. Only one day a week, we are to REST from our daily activities (of the 7th day of our working cycle). We need to remember that the legal issue is not the Sabbath anymore but Grace of practice. Grace is about loving other people that we have the freedom to do so but at the same time, respect how they practice their beliefs. In Romans 14:5 "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." 1 Corinthians 10:28-29 "both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake, the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?" Everyone will have different view based on their "convictions".

We are to be careful of those who practice "Sabbath" differently than other Christians. In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath). In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).

:amen:

I myself, am non-sabbathtarian

[woobadooba]

1. Grace versus Legalism in Sabbath
2. Method of Sabbath system
3. Obedience versus heart
4. Heart versus action
5. Much more.

I have learned and believe that the Old Testament regulations governing Sabbath observances were ceremonial. The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

Everyday, we are to worship and fellowship. Only one day a week, we are to REST from our daily activities (of the 7th day of our working cycle). We need to remember that the legal issue is not the Sabbath anymore but Grace of practice. Grace is about loving other people that we have the freedom to do so but at the same time, respect how they practice their beliefs. In Romans 14:5 "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." 1 Corinthians 10:28-29 "both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake, the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?" Everyone will have different view based on their "convictions".

We are to be careful of those who practice "Sabbath" differently than other Christians. In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath). In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).

Of course, the implication that Jim is making here, as usual when addressing me, is that I am a legalist, and don't know the true gospel of Jesus Christ, because I believe in keeping God's commandments.

Does it ever end? How man would like to attack me? Does anyone else in here want to take a low blow at me?

[JimfromOhio]

Of course, the implication that Jim is making here, as usual when addressing me, is that I am a legalist, and don't know the true gospel of Jesus Christ, because I believe in keeping God's commandments.

Does it ever end? How man would like to attack me? Does anyone else in here want to take a low blow at me?

I am focusing on the topic however I can see why you feel that way since you have many "reports" on you. Assumptions can lead to more problems therefore, do not assume that I was attacking you but rather attacking the "Sabbath" doctrine.
:wave:

[woobadooba]

I am focusing on the topic however I can see why you feel that way since you have many "reports" on you. Assumptions can lead to more problems therefore, do not assume that I was attacking you but rather attacking the "Sabbath" doctrine.
:wave:

Jim, as I had informed you in the past, I do not wish to discuss anything with you, as it has become quite evident to me that you can't keep yourself from being antagonistic towards Sabbath keepers. Please respect that request, and do not respond to me again.

This thread was not put up for debate. It is only in here because of the moderators made the mistake of moving it here. I never intended for it to be debative.

[Criada]

Given that Wooba did not even mention this doctrine until it was brought up by someone else, can we just welcome him as a brother and agree to differ?
I don't suppose any two of us here agree on every little point...

[Lisa0315]

The thread was moved to debate to try and protect those who did now want to debate. My mistake. It was not intended as an invitation to debate. Regardless, I am closing this until staff can action all of the reports. (Per Smod directive)

Lisa

[Lisa0315]

Closed for Staff Review