95 Biblical reasons to believe the future is not exhaustively settled...

[Boxmaker]

Let me know what you think....

1. God worked in six day-divided time spans, but rested on the seventh day (Gen 2:1-2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Gen+2%3A1-2))
2. God brought the animals before Adam to see what he would call them. (Gen 2:19 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Gen+2%3A19))
3. God is uncertain whether they will eat of the Tree of Life after the fall. (Gen 3:22 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Gen+3%3A22))
4. God repents that he made man. (Gen 6:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Gen+6%3A6))
5. God must patiently wait while the ark is being built (1 Pet 3:20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=1+Pet+3%3A20))
6. Satan is willing to wager with God over how the future will turn out. (Job 1:11-12 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Job+1%3A11-12))
7. Abraham challenges God over his promise, and lives! (Gen 15:2-3, 6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Gen+15%3A2-3))
8. God is prevailed upon by Abraham over whether to spare Sodom. (Gen 18:23-33 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Gen+18%3A23-33))
9. The angels of God argue with Lot about sleeping in the square (Gen 19:2-4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Gen+19%3A2-4))
10. God learns that Abraham would go to not withhold even his son (Gen 22:12 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Gen+22%3A12))
11. God is moved by the cries of injustice (Ex. 2:23-25 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Ex.+2%3A23-25))
12. God agrees with Moses that a backup plan should be prepared. (Ex. 4:1-9 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Ex.+4%3A1-9))
13. God promised those in the Exodus would reach the promise land, but they don’t. (Deut. 1:8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Deut.+1%3A8); 1:34)
14. God is uncertain how Israel will react when they see war. (Ex 13:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Ex+13%3A17))
15. God tells Moses He will destroy Israel, but does not. (Ex 32:7-10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Ex+32%3A7-10); Deut 10:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Deut+10%3A10))
16. God tells Moses He will not lead them, but He does (Ex. 33:3-19 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Ex.+33%3A3-19))
17. God wants to destroy Israel again, but is talked out of it (Num 14:11-12 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Num+14%3A11-12))
18. God sets both a curse and a blessing for Israel to choose. (Deut. 11:26-28 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Deut.+11%3A26-28))
19. God has faith in the people, that they can do it. (Deut 30:11 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Deut+30%3A11))
20. God gives the choice of life and death. (Deut. 30:19 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Deut.+30%3A19))
21. God repents when his sets up people that lead others astray. (Deut. 32:36 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Deut.+32%3A36))
22. God promises to drive out the Canaanites, but doesn’t (Josh 3:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Josh+3%3A10); Judg 2:1-3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Judg+2%3A1-3); 3:1-7)
23. Joshua charges that we can choose between good and evil. (Joshua 24:15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Joshua+24%3A15))
24. God changes His mind about establishing Eli and his sons forever. (1 Sam 2:30 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=1+Sam+2%3A30))
25. God gives Israel a king before He had planned to. (1 Sam 7:7-8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=1+Sam+7%3A7-8))
26. God had planned to establish Saul forever, but will not. (1 Sam 13:13-14 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=1+Sam+13%3A13-14))
27. God repents over making Saul king. (1 Sam 15:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=1+Sam+15%3A10))
28. David believes God can change His mind. (2 Sam 12:21-23 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=2+Sam+12%3A21-23))
29. God’s mercy stopped the punishment from completing what He said. (2 Sam 24:16 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=2+Sam+24%3A16); 2 Chr 21:15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=2+Chr+21%3A15))
30. Elijah claims they had two options to choose from. (1 Kings 18:21 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=1+Kings+18%3A21))
31. God is not always in the wind, fire, and earthquakes. (1 Kings 19:12 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=1+Kings+19%3A12))
32. God is full of compassion. (Ps 78:38-40 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Ps+78%3A38-40))
33. God is limited by man’s decisions (Ps 78:41 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Ps+78%3A41))
34. God desires new songs (Ps 33:3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Ps+33%3A3); 96:1; 98:1; 144:9; 149:1).
35. Heed my rebuke demands God, or else (Prov 1:22-27 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Prov+1%3A22-27)).
36. The span of your life is alterable (Prov. 9:11 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Prov.+9%3A11))
37. Solomon lists chance as a factor in life. (Ecc 9:11 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Ecc+9%3A11))
38. God tells Hezekiah that he will die, then adds years to his life. (2 Kings 20:1-6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=2+Kings+20%3A1-6))
39. God expected His work towards Israel would not be in vain. (Isa 5:1-5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Isa+5%3A1-5))
40. God’s desire is to be allowed to forget our sins. (Isa 43:25 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Isa+43%3A25)).
41. God declares the future, rather than knowing it. (Isa 46:9-11 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Isa+46%3A9-11))
42. It is not God that keeps men from being saved. (Isa 59:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Isa+59%3A1))
43. The people were able to grieve the Holy Spirit. (Isa. 63:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Isa.+63%3A10))
44. God predicted Israel would repent, but admits He was wrong. (Jer 3:7-10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Jer+3%3A7-10))
45. Ordaining the sacrificing of children never entered God’s mind (Jer 7:31 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Jer+7%3A31); 19:5; 32:35)
46. God gets tired of repenting. (Jer 15:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Jer+15%3A6))
47. God promises to repent of what He thought to destroy a repenting people. (Jer 18:7-8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Jer+18%3A7-8))
48. God promises to repent of what He says to promote a backslidden people. (Jer 18:9-10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Jer+18%3A9-10))
49. God is uncertain if the people will repent if they hear his message. (Jer 26:2-3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Jer+26%3A2-3))
50. God is uncertain if the people will repent from a written message. (Jer 36:2-3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Jer+36%3A2-3))
51. God does not willingly bring grief on men. (Lam 3:33 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Lam+3%3A33))
52. God despises the fatalistic viewpoint. (Eze 18:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Eze+18%3A2))
53. God predicts Babylon will take Tyre, but they do not. (Eze 26:7 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Eze+26%3A7); 29:18)
54. God predicts Babylon will destroy Egypt, but they do not (Eze 30:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Eze+30%3A10))
55. What God wants, is for the wicked to turn from their ways. (Eze 33:11 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Eze+33%3A11))
56. God becomes heartbroken. (Hosea 11:8-9 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Hosea+11%3A8-9))
57. God sends a drought to influence his people without success (Amos 4:6-11 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Amos+4%3A6-11))
58. Nineveh repents and God refuses to fulfill His prophecy. (Jonah 3:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Jonah+3%3A10))
59. Jesus became flesh, who had never been so previously. (John 1:14 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=John+1%3A14))
60. The will of men and the will of God need to coincide. (John 7:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=John+7%3A17))
61. Some people are just born blind. (John 9:1-4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=John+9%3A1-4))
62. Man has a choice, and God wants him to choose to abide in Him. (John 15:6-7 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=John+15%3A6-7))
63. Jesus is amazed at the unbelief of Israel. (Mark 6:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Mark+6%3A6))
64. Jesus is marveled at the belief of Gentiles (Luke 7:9 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Luke+7%3A9))
65. The Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God. (Luke 7:30 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Luke+7%3A30))
66. They could have believed if Satan hadn’t interfered. (Luke 8:12 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Luke+8%3A12))
67. Jesus teaches about chance meetings. (Luke 10:31 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Luke+10%3A31))
68. Bad things happen without a reason. (Luke 13:2-5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Luke+13%3A2-5))
69. God wants to destroy Israel, but Jesus convinces God to wait-and-see. (Luke 13:6-9 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Luke+13%3A6-9))
70. Woe! Men are responsible for their own actions. (Luke 17:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Luke+17%3A1))
71. Perhaps they will respect the master’s son, says the master. (Luke 20:13 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Luke+20%3A13))
72. Jesus asks people to come to him. (Matt 11:28).
73. Jesus predicts the last days will not last as long as prophesied. (Matt 24:22)
74. Jesus predicts he will return in His follower’s lifetime. (Mat 24:33-34 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Mat+24%3A33-34); 16:28; 10:23; 23:31-36)
75. Jesus says he wanted Israel to rally to him, but they weren’t willing. (Mat 23:37 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Mat+23%3A37))
76. Jesus left Godliness to become sin and to experience death, for us. (Phil 2:8; Heb 12:12-20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Heb+12%3A12-20))
77. The Father, for the first time, forsakes the Son. (Mat 27:46 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Mat+27%3A46))
78. The Holy Spirit announces the start of the Last Days that never come. (Acts 2:14-20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Acts+2%3A14-20))
79. People can resist the Holy Spirit in their lives (Acts 7:51 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Acts+7%3A51))

[Boxmaker]

80. Paul advises to prevent prophecy from happening. (Acts 13:40-41 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Acts+13%3A40-41); Hab 1:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Hab+1%3A5))
81. Faith comes from things that men do – namely hearing and reading. (Rom 10:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Rom+10%3A17))
82. God may return to Israel if the Gentiles abuse their position. (Rom 11:20-24 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Rom+11%3A20-24))
83. Love is more important to God than a prophecy. (1 Cor 13:1-13 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=1+Cor+13%3A1-13))
84. Your prize is not decreed, but is based on how you run. (1 Cor . 9:24)
85. God changes His mind about keeping the Sabbaths. (Col 2:16 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Col+2%3A16))
86. God wants all to be saved. (1 Tim. 2:3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=1+Tim.+2%3A3))
87. God’s will is that men abstain from sexual immorality. (1 Thess 4:3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=1+Thess+4%3A3))
88. Jesus must wait for his enemies to become His footstool. (Heb 10:12-13 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Heb+10%3A12-13))
89. God does not pick one person over another (Gal 2:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Gal+2%3A6))
90. If you do these things, your election will be made sure. (2 Peter 1:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=2+Peter+1%3A10))
91. The Holy Spirit counsels everyone to decide to come to Christ. (2 Peter 3:9 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=2+Peter+3%3A9))
92. Temptation originates apart from God’s decree but from our own will. (James 1:13-15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=James+1%3A13-15))
93. God very strongly desires that we follow Him and not the world. (James4:5)
94. There is time in heaven. (Rev. 8:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Rev.+8%3A1); 6:10; 22:2)
95. The water of life is offered to whoever wills. (Rev 22:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Rev+22%3A17))

[wnwall]

4. God repents that he made man. (Gen 6:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Gen+6%3A6))

I think saying God repents of anything is a disgrace to the Lamb and speaks of how little you understand repentance.

God bless,
Nathan

[Boxmaker]

I think saying God repents of anything is a disgrace to the Lamb and speaks of how little you understand repentance.

God bless,
Nathan

I didn't say it.

Genesis 6:6 (King James Version)


6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Did you even read the verse before you responded?

[wnwall]

Did you even read the verse before you responded?

Of course, I clicked your little link and it gave me NKJV. That must be an older use of the word repent, meaning something similar to grieved. I am sorry for picking that part out, and have no intention of getting into a semantical debate, which is what your KJV quote turns my former post into.

And I repent for jumping to conclusions for how you were using the word repent and ask for your forgiveness. It's like Piper says, "If someone from America says he wants to play soccer and someone from England says he wants to play football, and they spend all afternoon arguing about it, that would be a wasted afternoon!"

God bless,
Nathan

[Boxmaker]

Of course, I clicked your little link and it gave me NKJV. That must be an older use of the word repent, meaning something similar to grieved. I am sorry for picking that part out, and have no intention of getting into a semantical debate, which is what your KJV quote turns my former post into.

And I repent for jumping to conclusions for how you were using the word repent and ask for your forgiveness. It's like Piper says, "If someone from America says he wants to play soccer and someone from England says he wants to play football, and they spend all afternoon arguing about it, that would be a wasted afternoon!"

God bless,
Nathan
Then lets set the semantics aside. Pick a translation that you are comfortable with. What do you think about these points in general? In particular?

[xapis]

3. God is uncertain whether they will eat of the Tree of Life after the fall. (Gen 3:22 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Gen+3%3A22))

I stopped here. Do you really think God is "uncertain" of anything in any sense? To say that is to deny His omniscience. How can God be God without complete foreknowledge? How is such a belief gleaned exegetically from Gen. 3:22?

For insights on God's complete and perfect foreknowledge, see Ps. 139; Is. 46:10; Jer. 1:5; Jn. 21:17; Eph. 1; Heb. 4:13; 1 Jn. 3:20; Rev. 13:8, 17:8. That's just scratching the surface. Does the Bible contradict itself?

[Boxmaker]

I stopped here. Do you really think God is "uncertain" of anything in any sense? To say that is to deny His omniscience. How can God be God without complete foreknowledge? How is such a belief gleaned exegetically from Gen. 3:22?

For insights on God's complete and perfect foreknowledge, see Ps. 139; Is. 46:10; Jer. 1:5; Jn. 21:17; Eph. 1; Heb. 4:13; 1 Jn. 3:20; Rev. 13:8, 17:8. That's just scratching the surface. Does the Bible contradict itself?
Look at the passage. The word lest implies a bit of uncertainty. The NIV translates it as "must not be allowed." Again, there is the implication that it is not a done deal, that there is a chance Adam will again eat from a tree he is forbidden to eat from.

[xapis]

Look at the passage. The word lest implies a bit of uncertainty. The NIV translates it as "must not be allowed." Again, there is the implication that it is not a done deal, . . .

It implies "a bit" of uncertainty?

It's not a done deal because God sovereignly steps in and removes the possibility. He knew what Adam would do otherwise.

It makes no difference what degree of uncertainty you attribute to God. If you attribute any amount of uncertainty to God, you are left without God. You have constructed another god, violating the second Commandment.

. . . that there is a chance Adam will again eat from a tree he is forbidden to eat from.

A chance? No. Adam would have done it. God knew he would so He made it impossible for Adam to have his own way.

This episode displays not only God's omniscience, but His omnipotence and His sovereignty over His creation.

You have set yourself in a position here, Boxmaker, of having to defend each of these 95 points. I asked you some questions in my previous response. I hope you will show me the courtesy of addressing them.

Thanks.

[Boxmaker]

I stopped here. Do you really think God is "uncertain" of anything in any sense?I do not believe God is uncertain nor do I believe God preordained everything that comes to pass. I believe His knowledge comes from a perspective of time that we don't have and cannot even conceive.
To say that is to deny His omniscience. How can God be God without complete foreknowledge?You are going to love this response. I have been starting a study based on these 95 points. One of the questions is, "Is God Omnipotent?" It is a very interesting question. Notice your statement, how can God be God without complete foreknowledge. Your statement reveals that for you, God MUST have complete foreknowledge to be God. I am not sure that is true. God knows as much of the futer as He needs to. God knows exactly what He will do in the future regardless of what men do. God has told us what He is going to do in Revelations. There is no clue in Revelations as to when it will happen as the when is not important. It will happen. God will do it.

As to salvation, God made us to respond to Him a scripure supports this. Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be opened. Ask and it will be given to you. God uses the law to reveal to us the need for our Saviour. When we learn that lesson and turn to God, God gives us the gift of faith. That is when we become the elect of God.


For insights on God's complete and perfect foreknowledge, see Ps. 139; Is. 46:10; Jer. 1:5; Jn. 21:17; Eph. 1; Heb. 4:13; 1 Jn. 3:20; Rev. 13:8, 17:8. That's just scratching the surface. Does the Bible contradict itself?I will be looking into these.

[xapis]

I do not believe God is uncertain . . .

So you don't affirm open theism?

. . . nor do I believe God preordained everything that comes to pass.

What about Eph. 1:11?

I believe His knowledge comes from a perspective of time that we don't have and cannot even conceive.

A perspective of time? Is God not outside of time?

You are going to love this response. I have been starting a study based on these 95 points. One of the questions is, "Is God Omnipotent?" It is a very interesting question. Notice your statement, how can God be God without complete foreknowledge. Your statement reveals that for you, God MUST have complete foreknowledge to be God. I am not sure that is true.

Omnipotence deals with His power. You seem to be discussion omniscience here.

More passages making clear God's omniscience: Job 37:16; Is. 48:3-7

God knows as much of the futer as He needs to.

Who or what determines what He needs and does not need to know?

God knows exactly what He will do in the future regardless of what men do.

So men can never frustrate His plans?

As to salvation, God made us to respond to Him a scripure supports this. Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be opened. Ask and it will be given to you. God uses the law to reveal to us the need for our Saviour. When we learn that lesson and turn to God, God gives us the gift of faith. That is when we become the elect of God.

I disagree with much of what you say here, of course, but let's put the soteriological stuff on hold for now.

Thanks.

[mlqurgw]

Boxmaker, first let me establish that I do not intend to debate these things with you. I am done with debate. Still I cannot let this simple fact go unnoticed. I am posting for the sake of those who read this thread and may be influenced by it.
You are doing, with your 95 passages, what is known as proof-texting. It is a common method used to justify heresy. It is taking isolated passages of Scripture and using them out of the context of the teaching of the Scriptures as whole and their immediate context. You are making them say something that you want them to say. It is a dishonest, though effective, method of deceit used by every heretical group. It is easy to do. That is why it is so common. Proof-texting has always been rejected as a legitimate method of hermeneutics.

[Boxmaker]

Boxmaker, first let me establish that I do not intend to debate these things with you. I am done with debate. Still I cannot let this simple fact go unnoticed. I am posting for the sake of those who read this thread and may be influenced by it.
You are doing, with your 95 passages, what is known as proof-texting. It is a common method used to justify heresy. It is taking isolated passages of Scripture and using them out of the context of the teaching of the Scriptures as whole and their immediate context. You are making them say something that you want them to say. It is a dishonest, though effective, method of deceit used by every heretical group. It is easy to do. That is why it is so common. Proof-texting has always been rejected as a legitimate method of hermeneutics.
How dare you call me a heretic. This is no different than the verses quoted in the Westminster Confession to support that. These are 95 verses that offer support to Open Theism. They are offered with a link to a biblegatway so that you can look them up, using your preferred translation, and talk about them.

It is despicable of you to call me a heretic when I have done nothing but offer scriptural support for that which the Holy Spirit has revealed to my heart.

If you are unable or unwilling to debate the points (note that this is in the debate a calvinist sub-forum) then kindly refrain from posting on this thread.

May the peace of Christ fill you.
Amen

[bradfordl]

How dare you call me a heretic.
No-one called you a heretic, Box, although I am certain that you have an idea as to my personal position on that matter without my having to voice it. You have falsely accused a brother of mine of something that, although not by any means a sin (and in fact believers are required to discern such so as to avoid such), in a feeble and transparent diversionary tactic. He simply stated that proof-texting is a common tool of heretics, and therefore an illegitimate hermeunetic form. If that statement in your mind speaks of you, well..., speak to your own mind. It does not warrant you committing the obvious sin of false accusation, and I would ask that you repent and apologize.

Open theism is heresy and is idolatry. If the proverbial shoe fits, I suppose that's your problem. Your 95 eisegesis' are precisely what mlqurgw said they were, proof-texts surgically removed from scripture without proper context. They amount to rubbish.

[GrinningDwarf]

As to salvation, God made us to respond to Him a scripure supports this. Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be opened. Ask and it will be given to you. God uses the law to reveal to us the need for our Saviour. When we learn that lesson and turn to God, God gives us the gift of faith. That is when we become the elect of God.

I know we've been over these, box, so I don't expect to change your position here, but for the benefit of lurkers...

The Scriptures also tell us exactly who will seek, knock, and ask unless they have first been regenerated by God....absolutely nobody.

As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God. Romans 3:10-11


Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Psalm 51:5

Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. Psalm 58:3

The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done. Gen 8:21



(This is not a hypothetical evil that may be in some men’s hearts. God says here that every inclination of all men’s hearts are evil from childhood.)

This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. Ecclesiastes 9:3

The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it? Jeremiah 17:9

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

(Notice, the man without the Spirit...or an unregenerate man...does not accept the things of God.)

So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. Ephesians 4:17-19

To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. Titus 1:15


...the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 8:7-8

(The King James and New King James versions phrase this “the carnal mind is enmity towards God.” Think about that the next time you hear the phrase ‘carnal Christian.’)

Let’s think about this for a minute. The unregenerate person is sinful, wayward, lying, having every inclination towards evil, mad, loving of darkness, rejecting of the things of God, considering the things of God as foolishness, hardened, insensitive, corrupt, and hostile towards God. Why would such a person even want anything to do with God?

We think that when God gives us a command, it implies that we are capable of obeying that command on our own...that somehow it would be unfair of God to command us to do something that we cannot do. Why is that? Couldn't God be giving the command precisely so that we can see we can't obey it on our own? I think that is exactly the case made by the Scriptures...for instance, by Galatians 3:10-12. And we see Jesus constantly commanding people to do things they cannot do apart from God...commanding the lame to take up his mat and walk or the man with the shriveled hand to stretch out his fingers.

[xapis]

Box,
Do you plan to address my questions in post #11?

Thanks.

[Boxmaker]

So you don't affirm open theism?Yes, I do. I believe the open theism best fits the scripture.



What about Eph. 1:11?Is "proof texting allowed? Anyway, Eph 1:11 is followed by Eph1:13. Verse 11 is talking about the apostles who were chosen by God for a job. Verse 13 is talking about people who hear the Gospel and then accept Christ.



A perspective of time? Is God not outside of time?I think that He is. I think God created time and is not subject to it as we are. It allows Him to see time spread out before Him like a newspaper. He can see our futures without the need of directing those futures in minute detail.



Omnipotence deals with His power. You seem to be discussion omniscience here.You're right. I used the wrong word.

More passages making clear God's omniscience: Job 37:16; Is. 48:3-7I do not doubt God's omniscience. It is the method of His omniscience that I dispute as I disagree with the Calvinistic doctrine of preordination.



Who or what determines what He needs and does not need to know?God.



So men can never frustrate His plans?Short term, men can do things that are not consistant with God's plans. Ultimatly, since God is sovergien, He can work evil to God. The story of Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery. God turned it to good. Good for more than just Joseph.



I disagree with much of what you say here, of course, but let's put the soteriological stuff on hold for now.

Thanks.My pleasure. God bless you.

[xapis]

Is "proof texting allowed?

It's only a "prooftexting fallacy" when a passage of Scripture is referenced and decontextualized to "prove" a concept wholly foreign to what is conveyed by the text itself.

Anyway, Eph 1:11 is followed by Eph1:13. Verse 11 is talking about the apostles who were chosen by God for a job. Verse 13 is talking about people who hear the Gospel and then accept Christ.

If you take the "we" in verse 11 as referring only to the apostles and not the whole body of saints whom Paul is addressing, don't you have to take the same referents of we, us and our in verses 1-10 as including the apostles alone? Also, you say they were chosen for a job. But v. 5 clearly states that the predestination was to adoption, a salvific term.

I do not doubt God's omniscience. It is the method of His omniscience that I dispute as I disagree with the Calvinistic doctrine of preordination.

What lexicon are you using and how does it define the word προορίζω (proorizo)?

God.

If God does not know a thing, how can He determine whether or not He needs to know it? That's some ridiculous (pardon me for being so blunt) reasoning.

Short term, men can do things that are not consistant with God's plans. Ultimatly, since God is sovergien, He can work evil to God. The story of Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery. God turned it to good. Good for more than just Joseph.

Yes. But it seems here that you place God in spatiotemporal bondage. The many texts I referred to in previous posts on His foreknowledge (which presupposes foreordination) clearly show that this sort of thinking is fundamentally wrong.

Thanks again.

[GrinningDwarf]

Yes, I do. I believe the open theism best fits the scripture.

I don't think the open theists I have read such as Richard Rice would agree with your definition of 'open theism'. Rice essentially says that if human decisions are truely free, then they cannot be known in advance by God, because that would still effectively be 'predestining' our choices. I think Clark Pinnock leans that way as well. When you say 'open theism', this is the view that probably comes to most of our minds.

[Boxmaker]

I don't think the open theists I have read such as Richard Rice would agree with your definition of 'open theism'. Rice essentially says that if human decisions are truely free, then they cannot be known in advance by God, because that would still effectively be 'predestining' our choices. I think Clark Pinnock leans that way as well. When you say 'open theism', this is the view that probably comes to most of our minds.I didn't arrive at my beliefs by reading Rice or Pinnock or Sproul or George. Part of it comes from Sunday morning catechism classes when I was raised. What we learn as children becomes part of us. Though we are able to over come parts of it, other parts remain with us forever. The main basis of my theology was formed by reading the Bible. I do some Bible study with other members of my church and friends from different churches.

In all of that, the message of Jesus is that understanding the nature of God is not required to love and serve God. What we do for others in loving obedience to Jesus is far more important, and a better measure of salvation, that believing God is open or closed.

[Boxmaker]

If you take the "we" in verse 11 as referring only to the apostles and not the whole body of saints whom Paul is addressing, don't you have to take the same referents of we, us and our in verses 1-10 as including the apostles alone? Also, you say they were chosen for a job. But v. 5 clearly states that the predestination was to adoption, a salvific term.The we in verses 1 through 11 are talking about the members of the church. It is expanded in verse 13 to show that new believers are also welcomed into the church.



What lexicon are you using and how does it define the word προορίζω (proorizo)?I don't have one so I usually search it on the internet. In strongs and other lexicons it means: From pro (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4253.htm) and horizo (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3724.htm); to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine
http://strongsnumbers.com/cr5.gif
determine before, ordain, predestinate.



If God does not know a thing, how can He determine whether or not He needs to know it? That's some ridiculous (pardon me for being so blunt) reasoning.God knows what He needs to know. I don't know how He knows it. All I know is that He created us to respond to Him based on our own free will. God reveals to us our need for a savior and we make the choice. When we say yes to God, God gives us the gift of faith.



Yes. But it seems here that you place God in spatiotemporal bondage. The many texts I referred to in previous posts on His foreknowledge (which presupposes foreordination) clearly show that this sort of thinking is fundamentally wrong.
Nope, I definitely never put any bonds on God. I believe God created time and is not bound by time. I do not come to the same conclusion that you do because I reject the presupposition of foreordination. Why? Because it puts bonds on God.

[GrinningDwarf]

I didn't arrive at my beliefs by reading Rice or Pinnock or Sproul or George.

But you did claim to be an 'open theist', a term which has pretty much been defined by theologians such as Rice and Pinnock. Your definition is at odds with the commonly accepted definition, so don't be suprised if you are frequently misinterpreted.

[GrinningDwarf]

...All I know is that He created us to respond to Him based on our own free will. God reveals to us our need for a savior and we make the choice. When we say yes to God, God gives us the gift of faith...

Listen to this (http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/The_White_Horse_Inn/archives.asp?bcd=7/29/2007), if you would. Here's the 'nutshell' description:

Many assert that salvation is a direct result of man's free will decision. But is this view biblical? How can those who are "dead in sin" make themselves alive toward God to make that crucial decision? In addition to the roundtable discussion on this issue, Michael Horton will talk with Arminian Theologian, Dr. Roger Olson.

I've talked with you at some length on this topic, to no avail. Maybe Michael Horton and the gang will explain it better than I.

[Boxmaker]

But you did claim to be an 'open theist', a term which has pretty much been defined by theologians such as Rice and Pinnock. Your definition is at odds with the commonly accepted definition, so don't be suprised if you are frequently misinterpreted.
That will happen but my beliefs fall more inline with an open view than a settled view. I do not believe that the future is settled in terms of who come th Christ. What is settled is that there will be and end times and God will destroy evil then.

[Boxmaker]

Listen to this (http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/The_White_Horse_Inn/archives.asp?bcd=7/29/2007), if you would. Here's the 'nutshell' description:



I've talked with you at some length on this topic, to no avail. Maybe Michael Horton and the gang will explain it better than I.
I do not believe that salvation lies with men. It is a gift from God. IT is freely offered by God and we are free to accept it or reject it. We are born dead in sin but we are also born with the ability recognize our spiritual death. That is the purpose of the law, to teach us our desperate need for a savior. Once we reach that point we realize that God has a plan for us. God allows us to decide whether we will willingly become part of that plan or not. The whole process is not independent of God. It relies entirely on God.

I have nothing to boast about because my salvation is a gift from God. The very faith is a gift from God.

I have been told that my view leads to a very boastful claim that I chose salvation. I make the same claim about Calvinism. The very fact that God loved you enough to elect you and not a great many others gives you great reason to boast. We both know that we have nothing to boast about. Salvation is from God, not from man. Nor is salvation forced upon man just as sin was not forced upon Adam. Adam chose. So must we. The whole Bible is written as an invitation to those who need God.

[GrinningDwarf]

We are born dead in sin but we are also born with the ability recognize our spiritual death.

Then 'dead' does not really mean 'dead'...it only means 'mostly dead'...or what we call 'Princess Bride theology'. (Thanks, Erin!)

Dead men don't recognize anything. Dead men don't accept anything. Dead men don't respond to anything. Was Lazarus in his tomb preparing himself to respond to Christ's call to come forth? Lazarus is an exact analogy to our state before being regenerated by God.

[Boxmaker]

Then 'dead' does not really mean 'dead'...it only means 'mostly dead'...or what we call 'Princess Bride theology'. (Thanks, Erin!)Can a person who is spiritually dead recognize that there is something missing in their life?

Dead men don't recognize anything. Dead men don't accept anything. Dead men don't respond to anything. Was Lazarus in his tomb preparing himself to respond to Christ's call to come forth? Lazarus is an exact analogy to our state before being regenerated by God.
Dead men respond to God. Lazarus was dead and God called to Him and Lazarus came forth.

The spiritually dead feel that death as an empty longing. They look for something to fill it. Drugs. Booze. Sex. Good deeds. You name it, people try it. Some seek and find by going to church and hearing not only the Gospel, but Gods call as well.

[GrinningDwarf]

I have been told that my view leads to a very boastful claim that I chose salvation. I make the same claim about Calvinism. The very fact that God loved you enough to elect you and not a great many others gives you great reason to boast.

I suppose that may be true of some. All I know is that I spent the first twenty years of my Christian life believing that 'God does His part and I have to do my part...which is simply believing". Before I got 'Reformed', however chaotic or messed up anything else in my life got, I found myself saying about my salvation that "At least I did that right." Boasting...without realizing I was boasting.

Accepting the Reformed position was the most humbling thing I've ever done. It wasn't because of my decision. It was all of God.

[GrinningDwarf]

Can a person who is spiritually dead recognize that there is something missing in their life?

A 'mostly dead' person might. A 'dead dead' person cannot. Is a person 'dead in sin' or 'mostly dead in sin'?


Dead men respond to God.

AMEN!! That's the first completely accurate thing I've heard you say! (But probably not in the way you meant it. ;) ) (Edit...in my excitement over your admitting this, I wasn't quite accurate. Dead men don't respond to God. Dead men that God has made alive respond to God. Sorry 'bout the confusion.)

Lazarus was dead and God called to Him and Lazarus came forth.

What could Lazarus do in the tomb before Jesus called him?

The spiritually dead feel that death as an empty longing.

The 'mostly dead' might. The 'dead dead' feel nothing.

They look for something to fill it.

The 'mostly dead' might. The 'dead dead' look for nothing. They just lie there and be dead.

[heymikey80]

That will happen but my beliefs fall more inline with an open view than a settled view. I do not believe that the future is settled in terms of who come th Christ. What is settled is that there will be and end times and God will destroy evil then.
Um, a philosophical exception here.

In what way then can anyone be outside of time? Either it is settled in a universe independent of time, or it's irrelevant. Which is it?

Open theism has no place for a God beyond time. Because God must be dependent on time, if the future is open.

For God to speak to those dependent on time as dependents on time -- and yet to do things entirely inconsistent with time dependency -- that's an aspect of a God beyond time. He's really no slave to time for what He intends to accomplish. That's what Scripture represents. That's the God I believe.

Is God's prediction just "a better speculation" than the human kind?

[Boxmaker]

Um, a philosophical exception here.

In what way then can anyone be outside of time? Either it is settled in a universe independent of time, or it's irrelevant. Which is it?

Open theism has no place for a God beyond time. Because God must be dependent on time, if the future is open.

For God to speak to those dependent on time as dependents on time -- and yet to do things entirely inconsistent with time dependency -- that's an aspect of a God beyond time. He's really no slave to time for what He intends to accomplish. That's what Scripture represents. That's the God I believe.

Is God's prediction just "a better speculation" than the human kind?
It is my belief that God created time. It exists as a dimension similar to X, Y and Z. We are constrained by t but God is not.

Between the discussion on this site and another, I have noticed what is happening on these threads. Everybody on these threads believes in God and each of us has a concept of what God is. Be that concept reformed, universalist, open or anything else. Each of us have a series of verses that we go to to support our belief. You believe in reformed theology as deeply and unchangeably as I believe in open theism and as deeply as the universalist believes their point of view.

Each of us approaches discussion like this from the starting point of God just can't be God if... We will sometimes take the position that you cannot be a true Christian because you do not believe the way I do. As this thread and others demonstrate, we can get pretty entrenched within our view of God and refuse to look at any other point of view. I wonder if we sometimes lose sight of the fact that we are to love and serve God. Are we doing that when we spend so much time arguing about who God is? God is who God is and we can't really conceive of what He is. No man has seen the face of God.

Just a thought.

[Boxmaker]

No-one called you a heretic, Box, although I am certain that you have an idea as to my personal position on that matter without my having to voice it. You have falsely accused a brother of mine of something that, although not by any means a sin (and in fact believers are required to discern such so as to avoid such), in a feeble and transparent diversionary tactic. He simply stated that proof-texting is a common tool of heretics, and therefore an illegitimate hermeunetic form. If that statement in your mind speaks of you, well..., speak to your own mind. It does not warrant you committing the obvious sin of false accusation, and I would ask that you repent and apologize.

Open theism is heresy and is idolatry. If the proverbial shoe fits, I suppose that's your problem. Your 95 eisegesis' are precisely what mlqurgw said they were, proof-texts surgically removed from scripture without proper context. They amount to rubbish.
I'm sorry but I disagree with you. The tenor and wording of the post clearly implied that my thinking is heretical. You response includes the same accusation. I have done nothing that requires me to repent and ask for forgiveness. I have posted a list of 95 verses that tend to support an open view. I have posted them with links to Biblegateway so that anybody who wants can get the complete context of the verse in almost any translation they wish to use.

[heymikey80]

It is my belief that God created time. It exists as a dimension similar to X, Y and Z. We are constrained by t but God is not.
Well actually though what you're saying is that God is constrained by time. He's committed to operating in time, and yet God doesn't control what goes on in time. In other words, by your view, God has made the rock He cannot move.

This is a purely philosophical answer. But it's a fact. By your view God has made something that He doesn't control -- the events going on in time. Plus He's made things happen in His own spiritual environment that are dependent on what goes on in this uncontrolled time entity.

Can you see why this wouldn't be God for most philosophers? It puts God as subservient to time and chance.

It assuredly makes no sense to deal with Scripture from this standpoint. First, it's nowhere in the Biblical viewpoint of Christ upholding all creation by His power, or knowing the end from the beginning (a nice Hebraistic way of saying "He knows it all"). But it goes on & on, God being the beginning and the end, the starter and ender of faith, the alpha and omega -- the "a to z". God moving all things for the good of those who love Him, the called for His purpose. Nothing in the present or the future changing His sacrificial love. Nothing in creation doing so. "No one can snatch him out of My hands." Where does that grip loosen?

[Boxmaker]

Well actually though what you're saying is that God is constrained by time. He's committed to operating in time, and yet God doesn't control what goes on in time. In other words, by your view, God has made the rock He cannot move.

This is a purely philosophical answer. But it's a fact. By your view God has made something that He doesn't control -- the events going on in time. Plus He's made things happen in His own spiritual environment that are dependent on what goes on in this uncontrolled time entity.

Can you see why this wouldn't be God for most philosophers? It puts God as subservient to time and chance.

It assuredly makes no sense to deal with Scripture from this standpoint. First, it's nowhere in the Biblical viewpoint of Christ upholding all creation by His power, or knowing the end from the beginning (a nice Hebraistic way of saying "He knows it all"). But it goes on & on, God being the beginning and the end, the starter and ender of faith, the alpha and omega -- the "a to z". God moving all things for the good of those who love Him, the called for His purpose. Nothing in the present or the future changing His sacrificial love. Nothing in creation doing so. "No one can snatch him out of My hands." Where does that grip loosen?
Uhm, I'm not sure where you get the idea I am saying that God created the unmovable object. God created time just as He created us and the physical laws of the universe. As created things, God has the ability to influence those things as need be.

Take miracles for instance. I don't think it is a stretch to say that the miracles Jesus performed violate the physical laws of the universe as we understand them. Jesus was able to effect those laws in ways that we cannot. As created items, they are subject to God's control and God controls them. As created beings, we are subject to the laws and we cannot effect them in any way.

God is not constrained by time.