How Do You Guys Feel About..?

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Hi Everyone,

As my icon says, I'm Adventist. :) Thing is, all of my family comes from an Anglican background. I've never been to an Anglican church or know much about their beliefs, really.

I was wondering, how do you guys feel about other churches, like Adventists? Even though none of my family are really practicing Anglicans at this point, as they have varied other influences..it's been raised as an issue because I decided to do something different. And it doesn't help that my faith differs on some of the fundamental beliefs!

I guess I'm trying to figure out if this is more of a personal problem, or theological. How would you react if a close family member (or kid, in my case) decided to chose a different faith?

Thanks!

Blessings and Love,
Sarah

[norbie]

You didn't mention it, but sure you did have a reason to change over to the Adventist Church. If you believe that you did the right thing and you follow their life requirements and stick to their rules, what is the problem? You believe in Jesus our Saver and his sacrifice for us - ...
What gets me most angry is if one church goes against the other - and there are millions of people out there with the need to find the way back to Jesus. And sometimes we fighting us about real little things instead of calling together the truth about Christ, the risen saviour.

[SonicBOOM]

Hi Everyone,

As my icon says, I'm Adventist. :) Thing is, all of my family comes from an Anglican background. I've never been to an Anglican church or know much about their beliefs, really.

I was wondering, how do you guys feel about other churches, like Adventists? Even though none of my family are really practicing Anglicans at this point, as they have varied other influences..it's been raised as an issue because I decided to do something different. And it doesn't help that my faith differs on some of the fundamental beliefs!

I guess I'm trying to figure out if this is more of a personal problem, or theological. How would you react if a close family member (or kid, in my case) decided to chose a different faith?

Thanks!

Blessings and Love,
Sarah


to be honest I really wouldn't think much of it. If anything it would rouse my intrest and I'd prolly take a closer look to see what makes it such a facanation. Some people do indeed over-react... but usaully they over-react because they themselves are to scared to take a closer look. I personally think that God made us very very diverse people and as a result.... we are gonna disagree ALOT on what we beleive.

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

You didn't mention it, but sure you did have a reason to change over to the Adventist Church. If you believe that you did the right thing and you follow their life requirements and stick to their rules, what is the problem? You believe in Jesus our Saver and his sacrifice for us - ...
What gets me most angry is if one church goes against the other - and there are millions of people out there with the need to find the way back to Jesus. And sometimes we fighting us about real little things instead of calling together the truth about Christ, the risen saviour.

Technically, I was never raised Anglican. I was raised sorta..free-spirited, with a knowledge of God. :) I turned from Wicca and spiritualism when I was around 16 to Adventism when I picked up a Bible for the first time. It just seemed right.

I guess my problem is that I find myself judged because I found my own beliefs which contradict those that this family member were raised with, and raised me with. Anyway, I don't want to turn it into anything too personal. I'm honestly seeking to find out a bit more about Anglicans, so I can better relate. :)

I know some churches don't classify Adventists as Christians, and I've had a hard time with that before..so I guess I'm kinda wondering the feeling you guys might have towards us as I'm trying to grasp this whole difference thing.

And I completely agree! There's too much nit-picking going on, people fighting when it should all be rejoicing that someone has chosen Jesus. ^_^ And, also, trusting Jesus with their souls, you know? He'll guide them, if they're willing. Who are we to say they aren't walking with Him?

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

to be honest I really wouldn't think much of it. If anything it would rouse my intrest and I'd prolly take a closer look to see what makes it such a facanation. Some people do indeed over-react... but usaully they over-react because they themselves are to scared to take a closer look. I personally think that God made us very very diverse people and as a result.... we are gonna disagree ALOT on what we beleive.
Wow. Thanks for your reply. :) That's a wonderful outlook! I wish more people would be that open.

[karen freeinchristman]

Hi Everyone,

As my icon says, I'm Adventist. :) Thing is, all of my family comes from an Anglican background. I've never been to an Anglican church or know much about their beliefs, really.

I was wondering, how do you guys feel about other churches, like Adventists? Even though none of my family are really practicing Anglicans at this point, as they have varied other influences..it's been raised as an issue because I decided to do something different. And it doesn't help that my faith differs on some of the fundamental beliefs!

I guess I'm trying to figure out if this is more of a personal problem, or theological. How would you react if a close family member (or kid, in my case) decided to chose a different faith?

Thanks!

Blessings and Love,
SarahHi Sarah :wave:
I don't really know all that much about Adventists, and most of what I know is from here at CF when I've had a look in SDA. But I do think you have both a personal and a theological thing going on here, because faith and denominational affiliation always involves both of those things.

Technically, I was never raised Anglican. I was raised sorta..free-spirited, with a knowledge of God. :) I turned from Wicca and spiritualism when I was around 16 to Adventism when I picked up a Bible for the first time. It just seemed right.

I guess my problem is that I find myself judged because I found my own beliefs which contradict those that this family member were raised with, and raised me with. Anyway, I don't want to turn it into anything too personal. I'm honestly seeking to find out a bit more about Anglicans, so I can better relate. :)

I know some churches don't classify Adventists as Christians, and I've had a hard time with that before..so I guess I'm kinda wondering the feeling you guys might have towards us as I'm trying to grasp this whole difference thing.

And I completely agree! There's too much nit-picking going on, people fighting when it should all be rejoicing that someone has chosen Jesus. ^_^ And, also, trusting Jesus with their souls, you know? He'll guide them, if they're willing. Who are we to say they aren't walking with Him?
First of all, praise the Lord that you turned from Wicca and spiritualism to follow Him! :clap:

Secondly, I'm not sure why people might not classify Adventists as Christian. Could you tell us why that might be? I would be interested to hear it.

Thirdly, we aren't the judges, Christ is the judge! :prayer:

Families are strange beasts and can be really awkward with members who are outside 'the norm'. I think it would be great if you could try to communicate your faith to them as much as possible.

[PaladinValer]

I was wondering, how do you guys feel about other churches, like Adventists?

I'm going to offer my personal opinions with as much love as possible:

Seventh Day Adventism, in my personal opinion, has some very..."interesting"...beliefs, not to mention a very unfortunate history of anti-Catholic (and we Anglicans are Catholic, mind you) speech and literature.

Included in these beliefs are:

-Soul death or "sleep," which is neither Scriptural, Traditional, or Reasonable.
-Sabbatarianism, which hints at Judaizerism
-Chiliasm or "premillennialism," which was declared not orthodox by two Ecumenical Councils (both Constantinople I and Ephesus)
-Annihilationalism, which is contrary to all historic evidence
-Dietary laws, which is akin to Judaizerism
-Ellen G White's plagarism
-The Atonement theology, which states that the Crucifixion was not enough
-Remnant theology, which is directly opposed to what Jesus would say about the Church; that even the gates of death could not break it.

Most disturbing however is your belief that Saint Michael is Jesus the Christ. Such a belief has no grounding in anything historical and is outside of Apostolic, mainstream Protestant, and even Evangelical Protestant orthodoxies.

Despite the fact that your body baptizes in a Trinitarian fashion, and furthermore, does hold to the Nicene Trinitarian belief, I personally find it very questionable due to the incorrect Michael=Jesus belief.

I guess I'm trying to figure out if this is more of a personal problem, or theological. How would you react if a close family member (or kid, in my case) decided to chose a different faith?

Depends on what faith. And I am going to generalize quite a bit.

Another Apostolic Church? I would be just a little disappointed, but I would back up my child as much as possible.

A mainstream Protestant denomination? I would be a little more disappointed, but if that is what my child believes, I back up my child with what he or she needs to be happy.

An Evangelical Protestant denomination? I would be a little worried, but if that is what my child truly professes, I would support my child in his or her new faith.

A non-Christian? I'd be in a bit of shock and be worried, but eventually settle down remembering that it is probably better to be a good non-Christian than a bad Christian. As such, I would accept my child's choice, though I would still be worried and try with humility and love to bring him or her back.

A secular belief? Same as the above with increased worry and I would make it clear at first, and remind when absolutely necessary, that I do not approve, though again with as much love as I can.

An unorthodox Christian group? I would probably be the most upset. I would not abandon my child but I would be terribly worried. I would eventually come to terms, but I would be very disappointed.

[Mick116]

Personally, if any of my family showed even the slightest interest in ANY flavour of Christianity, I would be overjoyed. For example, my grandmother has been speaking regularly to some Jehovah's Witnesses... I might strongly disagree with the Witnesses theologically, but if they can help encourage my grandmother to seek after God, maybe help her to pray, then I would be very grateful.

If, at some time in the future, I have a child opting for something other than Anglicanism (or even than Christianity), I would encourage them on their journey of faith (or even away from faith, if that be their informed and educated decision). I know my own spiritual journey has been meandering quite a bit.

[Mick116]

I think a turn from Wicca/spiritualism to Adventism is definitely a step in the right direction; even if you might have to agree to disagree with some other Christians, at least we're now in the same family, children of God and brothers and sisters in Christ.

A few weeks ago I was speaking with a young man about his own spiritual journey... he told me how full of hate he used to be, that he used to worship Satan, and that he used to imagine what it would be like to kill someone... since then he has found a lifestyle of peace, prayer and meditation in the religion of Hare Krishna. I considered this a small step in the right direction, if nothing else. (We proceeded to compare our respective experiences with Christ and with Krishna, and I encouraged him to take a fresh look at Jesus' teachings). What's important is that we seek after God, and try to live more and more in the Way of Jesus.

[Colabomb]

We are Saved in Christ, not in our little divisions.

[Albion]

We tend to feel that Christians of other denominations are still Christians, all right, although they may have accepted some false teachings on some subjects. That does not mean that they have lost salvation or that we'd dismiss them as non-Christian.

The only reason that SDAs have or had been called "cultists" by some Christians (not speaking of Anglicans now but just Christians generally) is on account of them accepting Ellen White's writings as divinely inspired. Traditional Christians of course do not accept any writings as being on the level of the Bible...except the Bible itself.

Anglicanism is a very historic, mainstream kind of Christianity, perhaps the least distinguished of all denominations by having any beliefs that no one else has. We like to say that we believe no unique doctrines, just what the Christian church has always believed. While SDA ideas on the Second Coming, on dietary matters, on Sabbath worship, etc. are not anything we'd call you non-Christian for believing, they are ideas which the historic Church did not hold to.

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

To begin with, thank you for all your answers. :) I appreciate this a lot. I love this forum for the way it's so easy to build a bridge across different denominations and discuss things!

Hi Sarah
I don't really know all that much about Adventists, and most of what I know is from here at CF when I've had a look in SDA. But I do think you have both a personal and a theological thing going on here, because faith and denominational affiliation always involves both of those things.


First of all, praise the Lord that you turned from Wicca and spiritualism to follow Him!

Secondly, I'm not sure why people might not classify Adventists as Christian. Could you tell us why that might be? I would be interested to hear it.

Thirdly, we aren't the judges, Christ is the judge!

Families are strange beasts and can be really awkward with members who are outside 'the norm'. I think it would be great if you could try to communicate your faith to them as much as possible.

I'm pretty sure Paladin explained the differences in Adventists' faith pretty well (one I'm going to have to question, though), although admittedly it is the mainstream/stereotypical version. :) For the most part, 90% of Adventists are a bit more unique in how they accept the teachings..and of course, all that does is say what we believe, not why.

Thank you for the advice about communicating. I've been so scared to after I started to see the differences and the possibility to offend that I stepped back on that. I'm going to really have to try harder.

I'm going to offer my personal opinions with as much love as possible:

Seventh Day Adventism, in my personal opinion, has some very..."interesting"...beliefs, not to mention a very unfortunate history of anti-Catholic (and we Anglicans are Catholic, mind you) speech and literature.

Included in these beliefs are:

-Soul death or "sleep," which is neither Scriptural, Traditional, or Reasonable.
-Sabbatarianism, which hints at Judaizerism
-Chiliasm or "premillennialism," which was declared not orthodox by two Ecumenical Councils (both Constantinople I and Ephesus)
-Annihilationalism, which is contrary to all historic evidence
-Dietary laws, which is akin to Judaizerism
-Ellen G White's plagarism
-The Atonement theology, which states that the Crucifixion was not enough
-Remnant theology, which is directly opposed to what Jesus would say about the Church; that even the gates of death could not break it.

Most disturbing however is your belief that Saint Michael is Jesus the Christ. Such a belief has no grounding in anything historical and is outside of Apostolic, mainstream Protestant, and even Evangelical Protestant orthodoxies.

Despite the fact that your body baptizes in a Trinitarian fashion, and furthermore, does hold to the Nicene Trinitarian belief, I personally find it very questionable due to the incorrect Michael=Jesus belief.



Depends on what faith. And I am going to generalize quite a bit.

Another Apostolic Church? I would be just a little disappointed, but I would back up my child as much as possible.

A mainstream Protestant denomination? I would be a little more disappointed, but if that is what my child believes, I back up my child with what he or she needs to be happy.

An Evangelical Protestant denomination? I would be a little worried, but if that is what my child truly professes, I would support my child in his or her new faith.

A non-Christian? I'd be in a bit of shock and be worried, but eventually settle down remembering that it is probably better to be a good non-Christian than a bad Christian. As such, I would accept my child's choice, though I would still be worried and try with humility and love to bring him or her back.

A secular belief? Same as the above with increased worry and I would make it clear at first, and remind when absolutely necessary, that I do not approve, though again with as much love as I can.

An unorthodox Christian group? I would probably be the most upset. I would not abandon my child but I would be terribly worried. I would eventually come to terms, but I would be very disappointed.

Hi and thanks for being open about your feelings towards this.

I have one question about something you mentioned, though. This thing about Michael being Jesus..??? From all my study with and about Adventism I have never heard of this before, and if anything I've only been shown the exact opposite. All Adventist teaching I've encountered about Michael has always very strictly put him as seperate from Jesus, simply an angel.

I'm wondering if this belief is coming from one of our..hmm, off-shoot groups. There are some Adventist groups that go against most of our teachings and have some pretty radical ideas. As I've never heard of this one in the mainstream church, I'm thinking that might be so. Could you tell me where you heard about it?

From my knowledge, the main reasons we are not considered Christian is our keeping of the Sabbath and our beliefs to do with what happens when you die. Although Ellen White is also a controversial idea, one of which I don't even personally hold. :) Even Ellen was quoted as saying that the Bible comes before her on all accounts, so those who put her on an equal standinging are normally doing so from their own experiences.

And yes, we have a sad history of being anti-catholic in certain areas. Of course, again..that just depends on the person.

Personally, if any of my family showed even the slightest interest in ANY flavour of Christianity, I would be overjoyed. For example, my grandmother has been speaking regularly to some Jehovah's Witnesses... I might strongly disagree with the Witnesses theologically, but if they can help encourage my grandmother to seek after God, maybe help her to pray, then I would be very grateful.

If, at some time in the future, I have a child opting for something other than Anglicanism (or even than Christianity), I would encourage them on their journey of faith (or even away from faith, if that be their informed and educated decision). I know my own spiritual journey has been meandering quite a bit.

Thank you for being so open-minded. ^_^ I agree. I'd love a couple family members/friends to at least show interest in religion in some way.

I think a turn from Wicca/spiritualism to Adventism is definitely a step in the right direction; even if you might have to agree to disagree with some other Christians, at least we're now in the same family, children of God and brothers and sisters in Christ.

A few weeks ago I was speaking with a young man about his own spiritual journey... he told me how full of hate he used to be, that he used to worship Satan, and that he used to imagine what it would be like to kill someone... since then he has found a lifestyle of peace, prayer and meditation in the religion of Hare Krishna. I considered this a small step in the right direction, if nothing else. (We proceeded to compare our respective experiences with Christ and with Krishna, and I encouraged him to take a fresh look at Jesus' teachings). What's important is that we seek after God, and try to live more and more in the Way of Jesus.

Wow! That's wonderful! I agree, sometimes it takes steps, you know? It was a long, hard battle to deal with the change..realizing that all of my prior beliefs might actually be wrong was very painful. Sometimes one needs to progress to get there.

We are Saved in Christ, not in our little divisions.

Amen!

We tend to feel that Christians of other denominations are still Christians, all right, although they may have accepted some false teachings on some subjects. That does not mean that they have lost salvation or that we'd dismiss them as non-Christian.

The only reason that SDAs have or had been called "cultists" by some Christians (not speaking of Anglicans now but just Christians generally) is on account of them accepting Ellen White's writings as divinely inspired. Traditional Christians of course do not accept any writings as being on the level of the Bible...except the Bible itself.

Anglicanism is a very historic, mainstream kind of Christianity, perhaps the least distinguished of all denominations by having any beliefs that no one else has. We like to say that we believe no unique doctrines, just what the Christian church has always believed. While SDA ideas on the Second Coming, on dietary matters, on Sabbath worship, etc. are not anything we'd call you non-Christian for believing, they are ideas which the historic Church did not hold to.

Again, it depends on the Adventist. :) For the most part that I have expereinces, a lot of the current members I've met are trying to keep White's writings below Bibilcal, and just for added inspiration (as any Christian author might be).

I wasn't aware that Anglicans don't have relly any 'specific'/'unique' beliefs. That's really interesting, actually! (In a good way, of course)

And yes, that's a huge problem I've ran into. We aren't mainstream in some of our beliefs, and thusly sort of..shunned by some, because we're different. To be honest, I'd rather be different and trying my hardest to follow Jesus by what the Bible tells me, than I would conforming to mainstream simply to keep the peace with society.

Thanks again, guys!

Blessings and Love,
Sarah

[PaladinValer]

Hi and thanks for being open about your feelings towards this.

I wish to thank you for taking them in the same love they were given. :)

I have one question about something you mentioned, though. This thing about Michael being Jesus..??? From all my study with and about Adventism I have never heard of this before, and if anything I've only been shown the exact opposite. All Adventist teaching I've encountered about Michael has always very strictly put him as seperate from Jesus, simply an angel.

From the official Biblical Research Institute of the General Convention of Seventh-day Adventists: http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/Biblequestions/jesusothername.htm

An online book, that has the blessing of the SDA church, teaches the exact same: http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/q08.htm

I'm wondering if this belief is coming from one of our..hmm, off-shoot groups. There are some Adventist groups that go against most of our teachings and have some pretty radical ideas. As I've never heard of this one in the mainstream church, I'm thinking that might be so. Could you tell me where you heard about it?

Unfortunately, from the SDA faith: from its doctors, its experts, and its leaders. Not from its radical (and even more questionable!) offshoots.

From my knowledge, the main reasons we are not considered Christian is our keeping of the Sabbath and our beliefs to do with what happens when you die.

All the reasons I cited are key factors. However, those may be more major reasons.

Although Ellen White is also a controversial idea, one of which I don't even personally hold. :) Even Ellen was quoted as saying that the Bible comes before her on all accounts, so those who put her on an equal standinging are normally doing so from their own experiences.

Then, if I might ask, why be SDA if you find such a key and pivitol figure so questionable to the point that you do not even agree with?

And yes, we have a sad history of being anti-catholic in certain areas. Of course, again..that just depends on the person.

Should it not, however, depend on whether the institution does and not the individual adherent?

[Secundulus]

I know some churches don't classify Adventists as Christians, and I've had a hard time with that before..so I guess I'm kinda wondering the feeling you guys might have towards us as I'm trying to grasp this whole difference thing.

I was a Seventh Day Adventist for a while.

Seventh Day Adventists are Christians as they believe what is in the Nicene Creed. There is nothing in Seventh Day Adventistism that whold make one not a Christian.

That said, I think it contains some wrong and unnecessary beliefs such as the rejection of Sunday as a day of worship and the dictate of vegetarianism. I think it also tends a bit towards legalism. These beliefs however do not make one a non-Christian but simply a Christian who holds non-essential things to be essential.

[norbie]

but simply a Christian who holds non-essential things to be essential.

Amen to this, you are so right and its so sad that some, mostly very studied people riding around little, non important things. So how important would it be if the Sabbath is Saturday or Sunday in our relationship with Christ? Or no caffein or vegetarian - it's good for you anyway - this is all nonsense, I think.

[Albion]

Again, it depends on the Adventist. :)

This is true. I was merely saying that this is the reason for the charge sometimes levelled against the SDA that it is a cult, but there was no intention in what I wrote to say that all Adventists do. As I understand it, the church no longer holds Ellen White's writings in the same way it once did.

For the most part that I have expereinces, a lot of the current members I've met are trying to keep White's writings below Bibilcal, and just for added inspiration (as any Christian author might be).

And this is why some of the "cult watcher" groups have taken SDA off their list.

I wasn't aware that Anglicans don't have relly any 'specific'/'unique' beliefs. That's really interesting, actually! (In a good way, of course)

And yes, that's a huge problem I've ran into. We aren't mainstream in some of our beliefs, and thusly sort of..shunned by some, because we're different. To be honest, I'd rather be different and trying my hardest to follow Jesus by what the Bible tells me, than I would conforming to mainstream simply to keep the peace with society.

If you put it that way, of course you would not want to. But if we do not speak as though you are "conforming" by not rejecting the historic interpretation of the Bible held by almost all Christians of history, and if we do not speak as though there is something wrong with the mainstream merely for being the Church of history from the first to the nineteenth centuries, it would probably not be so.

I'd put it this way: Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would always guide the Church, and for most of history, the distinctive beliefs of the SDA were not part of the Church's belief system. All of us on both sides try to be guided by the Bible. Which is more likely to be correct then--the consensus or the recently founded offshoot?

[Wigglesworth]

I very much enjoy watching Adventist television and listening to Adventist radio. We have a Radio 74 station in my town that comes in crystal clear, and I watch 3ABN on SkyAngel nearly every day. The thorough Bible teaching without hype is great. I probably listen to Doug Batchelor more than any other minister.

However, I have studied enough to maintain a firm disagreement with peculiar Adventist beliefs. My background is Fundamentalist, Charismatic, and Catholic, and I have studied the various controversies from the perspectives of each camp.

Adventists believe the Catholic Church is the "beast power" that will force the world to take its "mark" of Sunday worship, claiming that the Catholic Church usurped the authority of God in changing the day of worship. Adventists are like my old Fundamentalist church, rejecting Holy Tradition as being unBiblical. However, it became clear to me that there were bishops before there were Bibles, and the Catholic Church's perspective on the Sabbath (as well as the Orthodox perspective, which I rarely hear about from Adventist media) is well supported by Holy Tradition and Scripture.

Although I believe Adventists teach some false doctrines, Adventists are Christians, as explained by this notable Catholic source:

Catholic Answers: Seventh-Day Adventism (http://www.catholic.com/library/Seventh_Day_Adventism.asp)

On the Michael issue, I have heard Doug Batchelor express his personal belief that Michael is Jesus Christ. This is consistent with what the Watchtower Society believes. That is particularly interesting considered in the context of the many Watchtower folks who convert to SDA.

A false pillar of some religious groups, SDA being one of them, is that their own legitimacy depends on the illegitimacy of another group. In the case of SDA, they can only be right if the Roman Catholic Church is wrong. There are other examples of this in nonSDA groups. In the case of cessationists, they can only be right if charismatics are wrong. In the case of Sola Scriptura believers, they can only be right if the historic churches are wrong about Holy Tradition. Once I was persuaded that Holy Tradition is true, peculiar SDA beliefs, Fundamentalism, and Sola Scriptura fell to pieces.

Peace be with you.

:crossrc:

[norbie]

there were bishops before there were Bibles

will someone of our students be so kind and explain this statement to us? Thank you!

[PaladinValer]

The Bible as it is today was not canonized and finalized until very late in the 4th century; within a decade I believe of the Second Ecumenical Council (Constantinople I).

Bishops have been around since Pentecost, c. 33.

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

I don't have very long right now to post, so I'll go more in-depth later. :)

Just wanted to say I rather did feel dorky after posting the fact Adventists, to my knowledge, didn't think Jesus is Michael. I asked from Adventist friends and quickly found out I just hadn't heard of things teaching yet.

Wanted to thank those that pointed this out (as well as posting the references), because it's opened my eyes to a whole new subject to study! ^_^ It's wonderful how God uses every opportunity, isn't it?

Also, thank you for understanding. :) I was kinda worried when I started this thread I might end up trying to be converted in some way. So glad I was proven wrong!

Blessings and Love,
Sarah

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

I don't have very long right now to post, so I'll go more in-depth later. :)

Just wanted to say I rather did feel dorky after posting the fact Adventists, to my knowledge, didn't think Jesus is Michael. I asked from Adventist friends and quickly found out I just hadn't heard of things teaching yet.

Wanted to thank those that pointed this out (as well as posting the references), because it's opened my eyes to a whole new subject to study! ^_^ It's wonderful how God uses every opportunity, isn't it?

Also, thank you for understanding. :) I was kinda worried when I started this thread I might end up trying to be converted in some way. So glad I was proven wrong!

Blessings and Love,
Sarah

[norbie]

I was kinda worried when I started this thread I might end up trying to be converted in some way. So glad I was proven wrong!
You should never think like this, why would someone try to 'convert' a Christian. Oh, there are some people around who 'steel' from other churches. I don't like them at all. There are milliones of people in the world who need to find the way to God, so if you are happy with your SA, then follow Christ your way.

[karen freeinchristman]

We can only give witness to Christ - if anyone does 'convert', it is a work of the Holy Spirit, and not of us.

[PaladinValer]

The Michael=Jesus has some problems.

Michael is referred to as an angel, specifically an archangel and the highest of all of them in the Bible.

Angels=/=God.

If Jesus is God, He cannot be an angel.

Therefore, Jesus=/=Michael.

[gtsecc]

Also, to make one thing clear:
Saturday is the 7th day, the Sabbath.
Sunday is the 8th day, so in a 7 day week, it is day 1, starting over- God created light, and so we celebrate the resurrection - the new beginning and go to church on Sunday.

[ContraMundum]

There's different kinds of Adventists.

A few years ago, I debated one in a publlic meeting, but the group of Adventists he was representing was not mainstream, but rather a highly conservative version of Adventism, which encouraged the purchase of the "little red books" (EG White's works) as well as believed doctrines like the Pope was the Anti-Christ and all the usual things. The group had connections with many members of the Branch Davidians.

The leader of the group had a standing offer- he would give $13,000 AUD to anyone who could prove him wrong about the Sabbath (being a commandment for the Church to observe). Well, let me just say I won hands down (because he's never debated it with a Jew before! I have angles most Christians don't think of- I'm not bragging, it's just that I grew up being a Sabbath keeper and still am, so he hadn't heard our perspective before) and of course the cheque never arrived. :)

The point is: some Adventists are not involved in the mainstream, evangelical-like, Seventh Day Adventist Conferences which have much in common with mainstream evangelicalism of other denominations. These "old time" Adventists adhere to the mainly rejected doctrines of EG White and her immediate successors. They are strict, legalistic and very controlling over their flocks.

When we speak of the odd, non-Christian doctrines of Adventism (as has been pointed out in this thread), we aren't being fair to the main SDA Conference type Christians, who generally can subscribe to the Creeds.

We should be careful to be kinder and more fair to the mainstream Adventists who visit here- they aren't like the others.

[Albion]

When we speak of the odd, non-Christian doctrines of Adventism (as has been pointed out in this thread), we aren't being fair to the main SDA Conference type Christians, who generally can subscribe to the Creeds.

We should be careful to be kinder and more fair to the mainstream Adventists who visit here- they aren't like the others.

It's good to make this observation because being considerate is important, but really, when I read back through the posts, it doesn't seem that there was much unkindness. The one most pointed doctrinal point made was affirmed by our inquirer in response, and there never was any doubt about her affiliation because it clearly was identified as SDA.

[Wigglesworth]

The leader of the group had a standing offer- he would give $13,000 AUD to anyone who could prove him wrong about the Sabbath (being a commandment for the Church to observe). Well, let me just say I won hands down (because he's never debated it with a Jew before! I have angles most Christians don't think of- I'm not bragging, it's just that I grew up being a Sabbath keeper and still am, so he hadn't heard our perspective before) and of course the cheque never arrived. :)


I'd really like to read your argument on this if you have it printed or posted somewhere.

[ContraMundum]

I'd really like to read your argument on this if you have it printed or posted somewhere.


I don't think I have posted on this anywhere, so I will briefly give you an outline here.

It goes something like this:

The Sabbath is eternal, but Sabbath keeping is a covenant sign between Israel and God, therefore not binding on Gentiles. This has always been the position of the Jews. It's ok to try to keep the Sabbath if you are a Gentile, but you don't have to and it's a sign for Israel to keep. In fact, in Jewish custom, a Gentile cannot fully keep the Sabbath, and if one was converting to Judaism, one should break it (say, by lighting a match or something) until the conversion process is finished. In other words, by keeping the Sabbath, to the Jewish mind, one is declaring oneself a Jew.

If one wanted to become Jewish, and be a formal part of Israel, one had to repent from idolatry, get circumcised and go through a ceremonial washing (Mikveh).

When Gentiles started entering into the people of God by receiving the Holy Spirit, without entering into Israel by circumcision or the mikveh, the church had to meet to work this out- the Acts 15 Council. Basically, it needed to be decided whether or not Gentiles should become Jews to be in the Church- go through the conversion process and thus accept the Jewish covenant signs. It was argued by the Council that God had accepted them as they were because they had recieved the Holy Spirit, and the Council did not bind them to Mosiac (Jewish) halacha (laws, covenant signs, customs etc etc), but rather bound them to the common "Noachide" laws (laws that under Jewish tradition, are binding to the whole human race), and their letter to the Gentiles reflects that understanding.

But, the Jewish Christians continued to keep the laws and covenant signs. This is seen best in Paul's life and works, where for example he went to the Temple to offer sacrifices, and also we note that while he taught the Galatians that they should reject circumcision, he had his Jewish disciple Timothy circumcised.

Thus, when we see Sabbath keeping in the NT, it is always in the context of Jewish believers, who appear to meet both on the Sabbath as well as the first day of the week. Gentile believers, not having to keep the covenant sign of Sabbath keeping according to the Jerusalem Council, are free to do as they please on this matter.

Of course, the Adventist guy never saw this coming. He was prepared for the usual "the Sabbath has been abrogated" or the "we are free to do as we please in Christ" argument, which are not a good ones anyway. Unfortunately for him, meeting a Sabbath keeper like me who disagreed with him kinda blew his mind, I think.

I could go into a lot more detail, but I'm short of time today. While this probably looks a little lazy and unconvincing, I can clarify more if need be later.

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Hey everyone

Sooo sorry for not replying to this sooner. Been having major problems with the boards lately, and I haven't had too much of a chance to post. (Keeps coming up with the dreaded 503 error 70% of the time I try!)

I very much agree with what was said above about converting others. I've come across the same thing from time to time. The ones who are insistant that to be a "real" Christian or to be saved you have to be in their church.

Being that I've normally had negative reactions with some Christians that are not Adventists, I never quite know what to expect. Thank you again for being so welcoming to me here. ^_^

And yes, it's true that todays Adventists seem to be leaning into a new direction. The church I attend is actually very liberal, compared to some. For one thing we use praise music (you know, like Christian pop) with a full out band instead of an organ and hymns!

It really depends on who you listen to as to how legalistic it may come off. For instance, I don't eat pork. This is one of the dietary things mentioned before. I used to love pork before I was an Adventist.

Did I stop because they said so? No. I stopped because what I read in the Bible about it got me interested into some research, and I found out it's really not very healthy for me. :) God always has a reason for these things. So, regardless of whether it's believed to be clean or not..my health improved greatly when I stopped eating it!

I think that's how I try to approach any teaching, to keep it from legalism. Does this make sense to me? Does it benefit me? Would it in any way be offensive or giving a bad message about God if I practise it? If I can answer these things in a sense that I feel it's a good move, then I do so. :) Goes for Sabbath keeping and such, too.

I wish to thank you for taking them in the same love they were given.

From the official Biblical Research Institute of the General Convention of Seventh-day Adventists: http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/Biblequestions/jesusothername.htm

An online book, that has the blessing of the SDA church, teaches the exact same: http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/q08.htm

Unfortunately, from the SDA faith: from its doctors, its experts, and its leaders. Not from its radical (and even more questionable!) offshoots.

All the reasons I cited are key factors. However, those may be more major reasons.

Then, if I might ask, why be SDA if you find such a key and pivitol figure so questionable to the point that you do not even agree with?

Should it not, however, depend on whether the institution does and not the individual adherent?

Thanks for the resources. I really had no clue of that teaching!

As for how I feel of Ellen White, there's a long story to that. I've never actually read any of her writing at this point, beyond a few pages here and there. I wanted to know my Bible first, which I have yet to finish reading. That way I could be a fair judge of what she wrote, and not be mislead. I try to do this with anything I read that is not soley scripture.

Apart from that, I used to channel. I saw visions. I was a spiritualist. Day by day I spoke to "Angels" and spirits in a very real sense. I've seen visions that came true. So, I have a hard time with anything that is inspired or coming from a vision. Even fight myself with this about the Bible, because a lot of it was not all first hand accounts.

This comes from the fact that I know how easily I was decieved into that stuff. How can I judge if they are not? Thusly..I'm very skeptical of anyone in that realm. It's nothing personal with Ellen, and I have no real reason to doubt her beyond this because I have not tested her works or even read them yet. I'm Adventist because of other beliefs we share.

As for the institution vs the individual..if there is error in the institution on any level, cannot only the people within it change that? ;)

but simply a Christian who holds non-essential things to be essential.

Amen to this, you are so right and its so sad that some, mostly very studied people riding around little, non important things. So how important would it be if the Sabbath is Saturday or Sunday in our relationship with Christ? Or no caffein or vegetarian - it's good for you anyway - this is all nonsense, I think.

It's very important to some. :) On both sides. I know some who believe they wont be saved if they don't keep Sunday.

The Michael=Jesus has some problems.

Michael is referred to as an angel, specifically an archangel and the highest of all of them in the Bible.

Angels=/=God.

If Jesus is God, He cannot be an angel.

Therefore, Jesus=/=Michael.

Good point, there. I've seen some good points also made in the thread about this in the Adventist board, too (from what this site has allowed me to view, dang errors). It's going to be a really interesting study for me to delve into.

Blessings and Love,
Sarah

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

I don't think I have posted on this anywhere, so I will briefly give you an outline here.

It goes something like this:

The Sabbath is eternal, but Sabbath keeping is a covenant sign between Israel and God, therefore not binding on Gentiles. This has always been the position of the Jews. It's ok to try to keep the Sabbath if you are a Gentile, but you don't have to and it's a sign for Israel to keep. In fact, in Jewish custom, a Gentile cannot fully keep the Sabbath, and if one was converting to Judaism, one should break it (say, by lighting a match or something) until the conversion process is finished. In other words, by keeping the Sabbath, to the Jewish mind, one is declaring oneself a Jew.

If one wanted to become Jewish, and be a formal part of Israel, one had to repent from idolatry, get circumcised and go through a ceremonial washing (Mikveh).

When Gentiles started entering into the people of God by receiving the Holy Spirit, without entering into Israel by circumcision or the mikveh, the church had to meet to work this out- the Acts 15 Council. Basically, it needed to be decided whether or not Gentiles should become Jews to be in the Church- go through the conversion process and thus accept the Jewish covenant signs. It was argued by the Council that God had accepted them as they were because they had recieved the Holy Spirit, and the Council did not bind them to Mosiac (Jewish) halacha (laws, covenant signs, customs etc etc), but rather bound them to the common "Noachide" laws (laws that under Jewish tradition, are binding to the whole human race), and their letter to the Gentiles reflects that understanding.

But, the Jewish Christians continued to keep the laws and covenant signs. This is seen best in Paul's life and works, where for example he went to the Temple to offer sacrifices, and also we note that while he taught the Galatians that they should reject circumcision, he had his Jewish disciple Timothy circumcised.

Thus, when we see Sabbath keeping in the NT, it is always in the context of Jewish believers, who appear to meet both on the Sabbath as well as the first day of the week. Gentile believers, not having to keep the covenant sign of Sabbath keeping according to the Jerusalem Council, are free to do as they please on this matter.

Of course, the Adventist guy never saw this coming. He was prepared for the usual "the Sabbath has been abrogated" or the "we are free to do as we please in Christ" argument, which are not a good ones anyway. Unfortunately for him, meeting a Sabbath keeper like me who disagreed with him kinda blew his mind, I think.

I could go into a lot more detail, but I'm short of time today. While this probably looks a little lazy and unconvincing, I can clarify more if need be later.
Hi. Some really interesting points there! ^_^ Would you mind if I quote it in the Adventist forum? I'd love to see some thoughts on it, as I've never looked at it in this way before.

[ContraMundum]

Hi. Some really interesting points there! ^_^ Would you mind if I quote it in the Adventist forum? I'd love to see some thoughts on it, as I've never looked at it in this way before.

You can if you wish, but don't expect to remain popular afterward. :)

I honestly wouldn't expect a terribly warm welcome about this perspective there. It's kinda like undermining a pet position. I'd probably not do it, myself.

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

You can if you wish, but don't expect to remain popular afterward. :)

I honestly wouldn't expect a terribly warm welcome about this perspective there. It's kinda like undermining a pet position. I'd probably not do it, myself.
It all depends on how it's presented. ;) I'm pretty well known around there (running for mod, actually), so I don't think I'll hit any resistance.

Might spark a few debates, though. Thanks.