When was He born?

[Henaynei]

Shalom Chaverim,

It seem likely that many here are familar with this information but it also seems a timely season to set it out.

There is much to say that Yeshua was born during the Fall Festival of Tabernacles.
Here is an article (http://www.tckillian.com/greg/succoth.html#_Toc18490747) which presents much proof, from scripture.

How do you think this should affect normative Christianity - or should it?

What about Messianic Judaism and it's numerous "Khannukah bushes?"

[SonWorshipper]

Yes, I believe that Yeshua was born during Sukkot. In fact on the first day which is a Sabbath. John makes that pretty clear that He tabernacled amongst us, and also John was witness to the transfiguration which I believe also happened on Sukkot ( will we also be "changed" during that time as well?).



Then following so quickly on the heels of the most solemn day of the year, the day of Atonement, shows a picture here too. It is the most joyous time of the Hebrew year as well as we see that 8 days after the start of Sukkot is Simchat Torah, the joy of the word, now who could that be? I know that it is a Middle Ages "invention" but what better thing to celebrate during this time?



I also would like to see if anyone knows if the Sabbatical years have been recorded ( I know that they haven't always been kept) from Yeshua's time until now, does anyone know what year we would be in the seven year cycle right now?



There are differing views, one of Benedict Zuckermann and one of Ben Zion Wacholder. I think that is pertinent to understanding more about when Yeshua was born.



Reason I am thinking on this is that if Yeshua was born during a Sabbatical year then it would be very appropriate, as the Law ( Torah)would have been read during Sukkot and He is the living Torah.:)

[Superman]

I did some research a few years back on the time of Christ's birth. One research I was impressed with actually attempted to trace back John the Baptist's birth based on his father's role in the temple pertaining to the feasts, and also using Roman history and so on. I don't remember all the details, but yes, he concluded Christ would have been born in September, during the Feast of Tabernacles in the year 4 BC. I agree that makes the most sense.

Christmas as the modern world knows it is utterly pagan, as is Easter. I celebrate it because of tradition, and I'm thankful that His birth is at least recognized at all, even if its surrounded by wrapping paper and sales at the mall. :)

[KelsayDL]

Excellent article Henanei. Thanks for sharing it! :wave:

[Henaynei]

Excellent article Henanei. Thanks for sharing it! :wave:There is much very good information on Greg Killian's sites for those who are willing to mine :0)

Delighted you appreciated it KelsayDL.

Yes, Superman, I think you will find a source for the documentation to substantiate that view on the web site I referenced :0) Lost of good stuff there - much way too deep for me :0)

[Henaynei]

Based on this information, how do you think your celebration of Sukkot should be modified - or should it?

What do you think should or should not happen in MJ congregations around Christmas/Khannukah?? Are "Khannukah bushs" ok? What about folks who call themselves Messianic "Jews" but still celebrate Christmas??

[simchat_torah]

Based on this information, how do you think your celebration of Sukkot should be modified - or should it?


Sukkot already has plenty of messianic themes already built in. No modification necessary... sorta like Pesach. ;)


What about folks who call themselves Messianic "Jews" but still celebrate Christmas??


they are christians.

[SonWorshipper]

Channukah bushes? I don't think I have one of those. :(

I think perhaps some hay in the succah and maybe a trough might make some nice decorations though ;)

[simchat_torah]

hahaha... i like it.

maybe a random cow and some sheep too?

[SonWorshipper]

And a partridge in a pear tree................ :D

Sorry:sorry: Couldn't help myself!

Don't forget the manure though, authenticity and all, none of that peppermint stick and gingerbread.;)

Cows and sheep ( love sheep) would be perfect, now to convince my Rabbi of this, ( we set up one large one outside our building ..................................also wondering how the other Jewish population in the neighborhood would see that ( we are located right across from a huge JCC!;)

[Henaynei]

they are christians
LOL - I like the way you think!! Yeah!


Channukah bushes? I don't think I have one of those.
But you've seen them - even reform and some conservative homes have them, and too many MJ congregations - x-mas trees with Judaica decorations.

My idea of abomination, but then I have had to leave congregations because our stand on such things as Torah and Jewish tradition was seen as too unloving - while visiting charis-maniacs from local churches visited and were allowed to weep and wail and co-opt our prayer services without intervention from leadership ("gots ta show love!") when they (the charis-maniacs) had a stated agenda of "setting us straight and teaching us how to *really* love G-d!!


I think perhaps some hay in the succah and maybe a trough might make some nice decorations though
And a partridge in a pear tree................
Sorry Couldn't help myself! (Henaynei - You're forgiven - now go mikveh thyself!)
Don't forget the manure though, authenticity and all, none of that peppermint stick and gingerbread.
Cows and sheep ( love sheep) would be perfect, now to convince my Rabbi of this, ( we set up one large one outside our building ..................................also wondering how the other Jewish population in the neighborhood would see that ( we are located right across from a huge JCC!

WOW - talk about PRIME real estate!! Mazel Tov!!!

[simchat_torah]

another prime example arises from MJ'ism:

http://www.worshipmusic.com/7779700242.html

[ServingHim]

another prime example arises from MJ'ism:

http://www.worshipmusic.com/7779700242.html
a messianic christmas CD? OY!:eek: :rolleyes:

[simchat_torah]

oh no... it's christmas/channukah

lol...

[ServingHim]

oh no... it's christmas/channukah

lol...
Oh, I get it...so as long as some channukah gets mixed in, then its alright. :scratch:

Hey, kind of like when people at my congregation go out to Denny's right after service on Shabbat. Mix in some of G-d with some of whatever you want and its all good LOL

[iitb]

oh no... it's christmas/channukah
I call it "channukmas." :P

[simchat_torah]

hehe, my brother and I refer to it as chrisannukahmass.

lol. great minds do think alike, eh?

[simchat_torah]

The track layout really makes me smile:

Angels We Have Heard On High
Shepherd's Song
Little Lamb
Christmas Star
Arise, Shine!
O Come, O Come, Emmanuel
Prince Of Peace
O Come, All Ye Faithful
Traditional Chanukah B'rachot (Blessings)
Mi Y'malel (Who Can Retell)
Chanukah
The Gift Of Christmas
Maoz Tzur (Rock Of Ages) / Hark The Herald Angels Sing
Christmas Medley (Instrumental)


You've got your traditional Channukah blessings which then lead into christmas songs.

intermingled yet she be! (for those who know what I speak of)

[ServingHim]

I call it "channukmas." :Phehe, my brother and I refer to it as chrisannukahmass.


That is funny, but also really sad when you think about it...that some people see absolutely nothing amiss in this. Wow!

[SonWorshipper]

another prime example arises from MJ'ism:

http://www.worshipmusic.com/7779700242.html
Oh no!:( I have to turn in my free tickets to his concert now. Oy! :sigh:

[simchat_torah]

I dunno, it's no different than going to see a christian in concert.

except maybe that 'rejection of the truth' thingy you might have to get over.

[SonWorshipper]

I dunno, it's no different than going to see a christian in concert.
Never been to one, you?





except maybe that 'rejection of the truth' thingy you might have to get over.
Get over? not following you Yafet? If you mean the songs? I would say it was more an "eccumentical thingy" ;) :(

[AnthonyForChrist]

I don't remember all the details, but yes, he concluded Christ would have been born in September, during the Feast of Tabernacles in the year 4 BC. I agree that makes the most sense.

Four is the number of the world, according to Jewish tradition, isn't it? So, it makes sense that Yeshua would be born into the "year of the world"?

[Henaynei]

Four is the number of the world, according to Jewish tradition, isn't it? So, it makes sense that Yeshua would be born into the "year of the world"?
The calendar G-d uses is the one He ordained, the Jewish calendar, not the gregorian one :idea: :)

Therefore it would have been about the year 3761 when Yeshua was born, not the year 4 C.E.

We really have to watch our tendancy to stir together cross cultural distinctives and come up with new esoteric insights. Any attempt to do so is doomed to failure and can create a pit in which we and others can fall.

[simchat_torah]

I did a study on the years that were possible for Y'shua to have been born, and my conclusion was 3 bce. However, there are a number of varying positions on this subject and I don't feel it is all that important to know the exact date. Nothing theologically really hinges on it, just a few neat insights about Sukkot and the date within the festival that he may have been born rotates depending on the year.

shalom,
yafet.

[Superman]

I did a study on the years that were possible for Y'shua to have been born, and my conclusion was 3 bce. However, there are a number of varying positions on this subject and I don't feel it is all that important to know the exact date. Nothing theologically really hinges on it, just a few neat insights about Sukkot and the date within the festival that he may have been born rotates depending on the year.

shalom,
yafet.

I agree. Some scholars push His birth back as far as 6 BC. I don't think it is all that big a deal to know the year, but I do think it is important to know the month, or should I say, the Feast He was born in/around. I believe the Feasts given by God were all pointers to His sending His Messiah, that is to say, these were signs to the Jewish people.

It is my understanding that the Feast of Tabernacles has some strong Messianic overtones/symbolism to it. Could one of my Jewish brothers point out some of these?

[AnthonyForChrist]

Therefore it would have been about the year 3761 when Yeshua was born, not the year 4 C.E.


Then what numerical symbolism does the year 3671 have?

[Henaynei]

Then what numerical symbolism does the year 3671 have?
Probably none. Need it have??

Not everything Yeshua said or did had "numerical" significance. As stated else where, the feast, not the year, has significance.

Sometimes we look too deeply for esoterica. It is of no significance how many steps Yeshua took between Jerusalem and Bethany, or the time of day He ate with the men on the road to Emaus. What is important is that He went and that He took the time to comfort the grieving men.

The focus on esoterica leads to a tendency toward talismanship, a very present tendency and danger in qabbalistic and charismatic theological systems.

Shalom b'Shem Yeshua :)

[Charles YTK]

Greetings to all. The birth of Yeshua. Here is another interesting item which I discovered on this subject. The Triennial Torah cycle of readings has been practiced since before 300 BC and was the cycle of readings at the time of Yeshua. As a general rule the guidelines of Torah is that if a man was to serve God in the holy priesthood, he needed to be between 30 and 50 years old. So it is logical that Yeshua began His ministry at the earliest legal age. Now the scriptures tell us that John was Baptisizing in the Yarden and the message was that of repentance, and it most likely indicates according to the message he preached that it was the days of repentance, in the month Elu. As a man begins his ministry he is first Baptised, and so it is with Yeshua. In fact he states to John that He (Yeshua) needs to be Baptised so that all righteousness (law keeping) can be observed. That is to say that in order for his ministry to begin he must undergo a Micvah and an anointing, which the Spirit Himself comes to anoint Yeshua. Straight away Yeshua spends 40 days in the wilderness. Since all of this would take place at the time of His 30th birthday, then it is interesting that after spending these 40 days in the wilderness, he returns and attends the sabbath service in his home town. He is honored by being asked to make Aliah, to come up and read the scripture portion for the day. This honoring may be because of his beginning his ministry, which would certainly fit. But look at the scripture that he reads. It is Isaiah 61. This is the prescibed Haftorah scripture that is read 40 days after Tabernacles.

Another intersting fact is that if he was born on the first day of Tabernacles,(Which is my opinion, then he was circumcised on the eigth day of the feast, which is Shimta Torah, the rejoicing in Torah. Yeshua is the living Torah and becomes a son of Israel on that very day by circumcion, so Messiah connects Torah and messiah together on that day. Not only that but in 1 BC this would be a Sabbath. (Regular as well as special).

This also makes Yeshua 33 years old in 33 AD. (remember there is no year zero) this would be the year of the crucifixion. Passover is a Friday in that year. as many agree since it was the day of preparation that he was killed and a passover, this was a Friday, preceding the regular Sabbath. This does not occur in any years plus or minus 6 years from that date. It is a perfect fit to the simple understanding og scripture and the traditions of second temple Judaism as we understand them.

His birth was on Sabbath by this analysis, which makes real good sence because Mary would have labored before that time and ceased from labor on Sabbath. Additionally Yeshua is Lord of the Sabbath. It all seems appropriate doesn't it?

Now another fact that seems even more strange is that if there had been a Georgian calander running in the past at that time, Yeshua would have been born on Sept. 11, 1 BC. , Along with several other events of spiritual significance, such as the day that Isaac was offered up, also being a Sept 11th.

Hope you enjoy,

Charles YTK

Hello Yapheth, good to see you posting here.

[SonWorshipper]

Charles ! It's wonderful to see you here posting again! I do hope you wont' stay away as long, I so enjoy your insights!

I am in agreement with all you have written, except maybe the date but I think that a calendar problem. I think that the date of the destruction of the Temple is pertinant especially in light of some information I recently received regarding the strange goings on at the temple immediately folowing Yeshuas death and resurrection. ;)

[Charles YTK]

Thanks Son worshipper,

Well that brings up another intersting connection. You have the destruction of the temple in 70 AD on Tish B'Av and then you have the expulsion of the Jews from Jerusalem exactly one year later. When Yeshua can into Jerusalem the week before his death, he said that the temple would be destroyed " Before, this generation passes away". So what is a generation in years and how does it fit this pophetic word? I believe a generation is 14000 days, which is 38 years and four months Jewish time. From the passover in Egypt until the command to turn and enter the promised land in the days of Moshe, was 38 years and 4 months. If we count off from the passover of 33 AD (the time of the crusifixion) to the final destruction of Jerusalem and the expulsion of the Jews which began when the temple was destroyed, we come exactly to Tisha B'Av in 71 AD, which is 14000 days, 38 years and 4 months. So it all fits perfectly. So the temple was destroyed exactly one year to the day before the fall of Jerusalem and the expulsion of the Jews, "Before the Generation passed away" as Yeshua said it would be.

In Yahways word, nothing happens by accident.

Now to add another intersting tid bit. From the day that Jerusalem became a possession of the Jews again for the first time in 2000 years, June 6th 1967, you come forward 38 years and 4 months to The feast of Trumpets Tishri 1, in the year 2005.(Oct 4th 2005) And that is the end of another generation. What is doubly interesting is that that same day completes the same number of years (and days) as the first age of man, from the creation of Adam to the death of Noah, The last righteous man born before the judgement of the flood. Yeshua is called the "Last Adam" in scripture.
Also using these dates: from the creation of Adam to the birth of Abraham, (the father of Israel) is 1,948 years. From the birth of the last Adam, Yeshua, to the beginning of modern Israel, (Modern Abraham) is also 1,948 years.And from the birth of Yeshua to this date above, 1 Tishri in 2005, is the same number of years as from Adam to the death of Noah!

All of this is an exact repeating of times and sequences and seems to be more than a coincidence, to me anyway.

Shalom,
Charles YTK

[SonWorshipper]

That is indeed more than a tidbit Charles ;) If you put together your dates and add on the seven years? THen the date on the Mayan calendar is correct, that IS freaky! Have you studied the Mayan calander? I find it interesting in the so called "long count" of the 360 "Tun" and the 144,000 "Baktun". They too break up their time by decimils ( not nessecarily a fraction though but a combination of there counting method. LIke we have Years, months and days, they have six divisions of time.)