the bible and the bible alone?

[StormyOne]

I would submit that the bible is a vehicle to lead us to an experience with God and nothing more.... consequently, we may experience God and His direction outside of "biblical support." Here is something to consider, and the link for the complete article is found at the end....

So, the Bible itself directs us to encounters with God that lie outside the Bible and underscores the importance of actually experiencing God. The Bible is not "a book of abstract truths about God," but "a guide into the supernatural realm of God’s power" (26), "a guide to dynamic encounters with a God who works wonders." It was given to us that we might "hear God’s voice and respond to that voice with life-changing faith." 28. We should have the experience of people in biblical times, who heard God speak "through an audible voice, dreams, visions, circumstances, fleeces, inner impressions, prophets, angels, and other ways as well as through scripture." 19.

The Bible is valuable, the Bible is important, indeed, the Bible is supreme, but in the final analysis the Bible is not enough. And there is plenty in the Bible itself to show that it is not enough. The Bible itself directs us to look for encounters with God outside the Bible. Emphasizing the Word at the expense of the Holy Spirit leads to a costly divorce, Deere concludes, and many in the church today are content to live with only one parent. They live with the Word, and give the Spirit limited visiting rights. We need both parents.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/discern/gnos.html

[moicherie]

The link says web page cannot be found, I agree with the quote, Christiandom is in danger of using the Bible like a magic book rather than a guide, its priniciples should advise us in the right destination, the Holy Spirit will tell us how to get there whether we need to stop, turn right or turn left, or even do a u turn kinda like a stat nav perhaps?

[StormyOne]

The link says web page cannot be found, I agree with the quote, Christiandom is in danger of using the Bible like a magic book rather than a guide, its priniciples should advise us in the right destination, the Holy Spirit will tell us how to get there whether we need to stop, turn right or turn left, or even do a u turn kinda like a stat nav perhaps?
I'll find the article again and post a link....

[StormyOne]

try this one.....

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/discern/gnos.htm

this comment was significant I think.....

Jack Deere answers these questions in a book whose title pretty much says it all: Surprised by the Voice of God: How God speaks today through prophecies, dreams, and visions (Zondervan, 1996). As Deere sees it, there is no real difference between biblical and post-biblical times when it comes to divine communication. The ways in which the Holy Spirit operated in the days of the apostles, can and should continue in the lives of individual Christians today. In fact, anyone who sincerely asks will eventually hear the voice of God. 235.
We find in the Bible itself, Deere argues, a mandate for looking beyond the Bible for divine revelation. And we are guilty of "explaining away the Bible" if we hold that special revelation and guidance are not normal today, but were only for the apostles, only for special people, only for unique situations, and only for the period of the open canon. This view of things, Deere insists, is "modern theological nonsense." 278. It is nothing but "unbelief through theology." Earlier in his experience, he recalls, "I only expected God to speak through the Bible, so that's the only way I heard his voice. After all, dreams, vision, and impressions couldn't be important now that we had the Bible. I embraced a theology that justified my unbelief in all forms of divine communication other than the Bible." 271.
But Deere's outlook changed dramatically. Those who discount divine revelation, he argues now, are "Bible deists." They are guilty of worshiping the Bible rather than God. For Bible deists, Christ cannot speak or be known apart from the Bible. So they merge Christ into the Bible and preach the Bible in the place of Christ. 251-52.
These people are also guilty of overemphasizing the importance of knowledge. When we make the goal of our lives to know the Bible, we exalt knowledge over experience—a tragic mistake.

[Sophia7]

Here's something to think about:

John 5:39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

[StormyOne]

Here's something to think about::

John 5:39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
one of my favorite texts.... some folks still don't get it....

[sentipente]

Maybe the most significant step we can take is to stop saying things like "The Bible says." It is the writers included in the Bible who are speaking.

[daro2096]

Hang on. Would the Holy Spirit that inspired the written Word later contradict itself?

Those who know their Bible can not be deceived. The Bible is the written form of Jesus Christ. We pray to God through Jesus Christ and we hear/listen to Jesus by reading the Bible.

[DrStupid_Ben]

The Bible is the written form of Jesus Christ

This is the very attitude that many Christians are rebelling against, in the modern and postmodern period. Equating Christ's ontology with human words leads to verbal dictation theories of inspiration, which I think leads to theological problems, or at least Fundamentalism.

[StormyOne]

This is the very attitude that many Christians are rebelling against, in the modern and postmodern period. Equating Christ's ontology with human words leads to verbal dictation theories of inspiration, which I think leads to theological problems, or at least Fundamentalism.
agreed... if the bible is the written form of Christ, then there is some explaining to do....especially the genocide, polygamy and other violent stories....

[DrStupid_Ben]

agreed... if the bible is the written form of Christ, then there is some explaining to do....especially the genocide, polygamy and other violent stories....
There really needs to be a distinction between the content and form when someone talks about the bible as the Word of God. Ellen White said, “God has not put himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible.” 1SM p. 21

[mva1985]

The above quote in context.

Selected Messages Volume 1 page 21:
"The disciples traveling to Emmaus needed to be disentangled in their interpretation of the Scriptures. Jesus walked with them disguised, and as a man He talked with them. Beginning at Moses and the prophets He taught them in all things concerning Himself, that His life, His mission, His sufferings, His death were just as the Word of God had foretold. He opened their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures. How quickly He straightened out the tangled ends and showed the unity and divine verity of the Scriptures. How much men in these times need their understanding opened.
The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. Look at the different writers.
It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God.-- Manuscript 24, 1886 (written in Europe in 1886)."

[BondGirl]

The above quote in context.

Selected Messages Volume 1 page 21:
"The disciples traveling to Emmaus needed to be disentangled in their interpretation of the Scriptures. Jesus walked with them disguised, and as a man He talked with them. Beginning at Moses and the prophets He taught them in all things concerning Himself, that His life, His mission, His sufferings, His death were just as the Word of God had foretold. He opened their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures. How quickly He straightened out the tangled ends and showed the unity and divine verity of the Scriptures. How much men in these times need their understanding opened.
The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. Look at the different writers.
It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God.-- Manuscript 24, 1886 (written in Europe in 1886)."
I also would like to mention that when it comes to the "love" standpoint we don't quote the BIBLE as quickly as we do when we are about to use the BIBLE to condemn....

Just an observation.....

[woobadooba]

I also would like to mention that when it comes to the "love" standpoint we don't quote the BIBLE as quickly as we do when we are about to use the BIBLE to condemn....

Just an observation.....

Condemn, or rebuke? People often confuse the two.

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Rev 3:19-20)

[moicherie]

Hang on. Would the Holy Spirit that inspired the written Word later contradict itself?

Those who know their Bible can not be deceived. The Bible is the written form of Jesus Christ. We pray to God through Jesus Christ and we hear/listen to Jesus by reading the Bible.
The bible is not the written form of Jesus Christ, it man's account of how they percieved God in the era's ___B.C and ______A.D. If I write a book about you that book is not you.

[woobadooba]

it man's account of how they percieved God in the era's

I would say it is God's account of Himself, as "all scripture is God breathed". 2Tim. 3:16

[sentipente]

I would say it is God's account of Himself, as "all scripture is God breathed". 2Tim. 3:16
To avoid misrepresenting you, what do you think God breathed means in terms of what the human agent says or writes?

[woobadooba]

To avoid misrepresenting you, what do you think God breathed means in terms of what the human agent says or writes?

What it means is that it "is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2Ti 3:16-17)

Hence it brings us into connection with God because it is of God.

Not all scripture is dictated however, but all of it is governed by the same Spirit.

Those who wrote it were God's penman, not His pen. They acted responsibly in making it known to us, but they are not responsible for its existence, as it did not come from men, but from God.

[StormyOne]

how could something that comes from God be imperfect? Have an error or two? Wouldn't God make sure if his name was on it that it would be error-free? Or if not error-free then written in such a way that it would be next to impossible to misunderstand?

[sentipente]

Woob, you know you did not answer the question. What do you mean when you say something is God-breathed? What is entailed in that process. And how do you know that the men who wrote were responsible in writing what they felt moved to write?

[daro2096]

The bible is not the written form of Jesus Christ, it man's account of how they percieved God in the era's ___B.C and ______A.D. If I write a book about you that book is not you.
It is if God wrote the book. In heaven there is a complete transcript of me in book form and everything there is recorded about me. Everything I have done, good or bad, what I thought and what I am saying is there in that book.

In the judgment we don't appear personnal. We all appear before the judgment seat of God in book form. When Jesus comes all those who professed for Christ have been judged and have either been found worthy or wanting but the wicked have not been judged(least not in the pre-advent judgment like the rightous have). The wicked are judged by the saved during the 1000 years in heaven. The wicked don't appear in person during this 1000 years judgment but are represented by the books.

[sentipente]

Daro, do you want this last post to be taken seriously?

[daro2096]

Daro, do you want this last post to be taken seriously?
How do I put you on ignore?

[StormyOne]

interesting beliefs about judgment. I thought the idea about "literal" books had died a quiet death.... why do spiritual beings need "books?"

[Sophia7]

interesting beliefs about judgment. I thought the idea about "literal" books had died a quiet death.... why do spiritual beings need "books?"

Yeah, couldn't the angels now record all of our actions and put them on DVD and give them to Jesus to watch while He's cloistered in the MHP finishing up the IJ? I would think it would hasten His coming if He didn't have to page through all of those archaic books anymore to figure out if His professed followers have become perfect enough to take to heaven.

[moicherie]

It is if God wrote the book. In heaven there is a complete transcript of me in book form and everything there is recorded about me. Everything I have done, good or bad, what I thought and what I am saying is there in that book.

In the judgment we don't appear personnal. We all appear before the judgment seat of God in book form. When Jesus comes all those who professed for Christ have been judged and have either been found worthy or wanting but the wicked have not been judged(least not in the pre-advent judgment like the rightous have). The wicked are judged by the saved during the 1000 years in heaven. The wicked don't appear in person during this 1000 years judgment but are represented by the books.
So when did God write the bible?

[StormyOne]

So when did God write the bible?that is a good question... one I had never thought about.... if angels are recording deeds in "books" to be reviewed later.... and obviously there is a heavenly library because there have been over 6 billion humans who have lived, then why didn't the God who commissioned all of this book writing, take a day out of his schedule and write a book and hand deliver it to the humans he created? There would have been less confusion....

[StormyOne]

so why didn't God just cut to the chase and write the bible himself?

[sentipente]

No one dares to answer that question because the truth hurts and we hate having egg on our faces.

[StormyOne]

No one dares to answer that question because the truth hurts and we hate having egg on our faces.
hmmm perhaps you have a point... the question is why do some become so dogmatic with something that God clearly did not write?

[RC_NewProtestants]

so why didn't God just cut to the chase and write the bible himself?
Probably the biggest reason is that people would worship the book, though it would still be necessary to interpret the book. In other words the fundamentalism would even be worse then it is now if God wrote it.

In heaven there is a complete transcript of me in book form and everything there is recorded about me. Everything I have done, good or bad, what I thought and what I am saying is there in that book.

Actually there is nothing in the Bible about every deed being recorded. The books mentioned are the book of remembrance in the Old Testament which is a record of good things and the Book of life which is composed of the names of those God has saved.

[StormyOne]

Probably the biggest reason is that people would worship the book, though it would still be necessary to interpret the book. In other words the fundamentalism would even be worse then it is now if God wrote it.



Actually there is nothing in the Bible about every deed being recorded. The books mentioned are the book of remembrance in the Old Testament which is a record of good things and the Book of life which is composed of the names of those God has saved.
the impression I got from reading about the book of life is that everyone's name starts there and can be removed...

I can see what you are saying about God writing a book himself.... people worship the bible now, so it could be much much worse.... however I find it amazing that people think that the bible is a complete picture of God.... its not... just as one book could not capture everything there is about one person, the bible cannot possible capture the essence of the Ultimate Being...

[Sophia7]

I can see what you are saying about God writing a book himself.... people worship the bible now, so it could be much much worse.... however I find it amazing that people think that the bible is a complete picture of God.... its not... just as one book could not capture everything there is about one person, the bible cannot possible capture the essence of the Ultimate Being...

JN 21:24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

JN 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

[StormyOne]

JN 21:24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

JN 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
exactly..... the little that was written was done so to foster belief in Christ....

[daro2096]

So when did God write the bible?
God inspired the Bible. Men filled with the Holy Spirit wrote the books of the Bible.

[daro2096]

Probably the biggest reason is that people would worship the book, though it would still be necessary to interpret the book. In other words the fundamentalism would even be worse then it is now if God wrote it.



Actually there is nothing in the Bible about every deed being recorded. The books mentioned are the book of remembrance in the Old Testament which is a record of good things and the Book of life which is composed of the names of those God has saved.
The books contain the works of what humans has done whether good or bad.

The first man to be judged on October 22nd 1844 was Adam. God said bring me Adam(I am paraphasing here btw) and an angel brought Adam's book and Adam's life was examined and it was found that Adam was worthy of eternal life.

Did God need to do an investigated judgment? No, he already knows who is saved and who isn't but for the benefit of the angels and unfallen beings he conducts the judgment. Just like when the saved review the books of the wicked during the 1000 years the angels and unfallen beings review the books of the saved before the second advent.

[StormyOne]

The books contain the works of what humans has done whether good or bad.

The first man to be judged on October 22nd 1844 was Adam. God said bring me Adam(I am paraphasing here btw) and an angel brought Adam's book and Adam's life was examined and it was found that Adam was worthy of eternal life.

Did God need to do an investigated judgment? No, he already knows who is saved and who isn't but for the benefit of the angels and unfallen beings he conducts the judgment. Just like when the saved review the books of the wicked during the 1000 years the angels and unfallen beings review the books of the saved before the second advent.
speculative... cannot be proven....

[daro2096]

speculative... cannot be proven....
YES it can.

Rev 20:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev020.html#12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev020.html#13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[StormyOne]

YES it can.

Rev 20:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev020.html#12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev020.html#13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
nowhere in the texts you quoted does it say that in 1844 judging began, starting with Adam. In fact the texts you quote suggest a judging period after Christ returns...... sorry, don't buy it....

[moicherie]

YES it can.

Rev 20:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev020.html#12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev020.html#13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
John knew of books so that is what he saw, the vision was based on his view of life however God no more needs a book anymore than He needs a diary...and yes you are speculating that October 22nd 1844 Adams names was called for judging.

[daro2096]

John knew of books so that is what he saw, the vision was based on his view of life however God no more needs a book anymore than He needs a diary...and yes you are speculating that October 22nd 1844 Adams names was called for judging.
I was actually paraphasing a quote from Ellen White.

Do a comparison study of the visions of Daniel. The judgment and the cleansing of the sanctuary and the time of the end are the same thing.

[Sophia7]

YES it can.

Rev 20:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev020.html#12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev020.html#13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Where is the biblical evidence (not quotes from EGW) that these texts are in any way connected to Oct. 22, 1844? These seem to be talking about the final judgment, not an investigative judgment. Also, the judgment in these texts concerns all of the dead, not just those who claim to be Christians. According to EGW, the investigative judgment deals only with professed Christians.

[RC_NewProtestants]

The books contain the works of what humans has done whether good or bad.



Of course you cannot show such a statement from the Bible it is just an interpretation put into the text by those reading it when it says "books".

I reject that because of 1 Cor. 13 where we are told love keeps no record of wrongs. God has no need to show me or other creatures my deeds good or bad, only that I will accept His forgiveness and new life. Past deeds good or bad don't tell me that information, just as they did not tell of the thief on the cross. A lifetime of evil can be washed away and it only takes a moment and that lifetime is forgotten. Looking at what that lifetime entails profits no one, only that we have accepted God's offer really matters in the end and that is what the judgment is about.

[daro2096]

Of course you cannot show such a statement from the Bible it is just an interpretation put into the text by those reading it when it says "books".

I reject that because of 1 Cor. 13 where we are told love keeps no record of wrongs. God has no need to show me or other creatures my deeds good or bad, only that I will accept His forgiveness and new life. Past deeds good or bad don't tell me that information, just as they did not tell of the thief on the cross. A lifetime of evil can be washed away and it only takes a moment and that lifetime is forgotten. Looking at what that lifetime entails profits no one, only that we have accepted God's offer really matters in the end and that is what the judgment is about.
So if the books only contain the good then why are the wicked jugded and punished?

Paul says we will judge the world including the angels.

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1 Corinthians 6:2-3.

[daro2096]

Where is the biblical evidence (not quotes from EGW) that these texts are in any way connected to Oct. 22, 1844? These seem to be talking about the final judgment, not an investigative judgment. Also, the judgment in these texts concerns all of the dead, not just those who claim to be Christians. According to EGW, the investigative judgment deals only with professed Christians.
Yes, I know they refer to the judging that the saints carry out during the 1000 years.

Wouldn't you want to know why a certain person you saw in heaven who you didn't expect to see and vice-versa someone who you thought would make it but is absent?

There is a judgment being carried out right now in heaven.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Revelation 14:6-7.

When Jesus returns everybodies fate has been decided.

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Revelation 22:11

When Jesus stands up a decree goes out saying let those who are holy remain holy and those who are wicked remain wicked. This next thing that happens is:

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12

If when Jesus returns he has rewards with him that means a process of judgment has already been carried out prior to his return. That judgment is meantioned in Daniel chapter 7.

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Daniel 7:9-11

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14

Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Daniel 7:22

But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Daniel 7:26-27

[sentipente]

Wouldn't you want to know why a certain person you saw in heaven who you didn't expect to see and vice-versa someone who you thought would make it but is absent?

The is the problem when one substitutes seminar material for true Bible study. It is impossible to believe that "the former things shall not be remembered nor come into mind" and also ask this question. If you can't remember it you can't ask about it.

[RC_NewProtestants]

So if the books only contain the good then why are the wicked jugded and punished?

Paul says we will judge the world including the angels.

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1 Corinthians 6:2-3.

Ok tell me the text which says the books contain all the deeds both good and bad. You can draw whatever conclusions you want. If you think God has to Judge based upon some books I would ask what makes you think such a thing. Are human expressions indicative of how God is? Did He really measure the water of the earth with His hand or is that an expression. Just as opening the books used in Daniel about the little horn is an expression of God taking action based upon the actions of the little horn. If God knows who are His would not He also know who rejects Him?

Now I have some ideas about what Paul was talking about but they are just as speculative as yours. In one sentence you say that God judges the wicked an they you say that the saints judge them. Well why would that be, don't you think the saints can trust God's judgment. Certainly unless God gives them information about the angels the saints will have nothing to judge angels by, so now must you assume that angels also have books written about all their deeds? So more likely these are references to our responsibility to judge the world here and now which is really what the context of Paul's statement is about. And we have to judge the angels because angels are messengers and we are told not to trust just any message we have to judge whether the message is really from God or not.