And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness

[MrJim]

Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. 14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Thoughts?

[rebel_conservative]

I think that means to tell people that they are sinning, not to tolerate it.

[faithmouse]

That probably means I should turn off my computer.

[Lisa0315]

hmm...I think we need to do a study of that lest we become people who cross the street rather than be seen in the company of sinners.

Naturally, I AGREE with the Scripture, but I am wondering how do we do that without being Pharissees.

Lisa

[Hentenza]

Hey Jim,

Verse 1 tells you. Be a follower of God. In order to follow God you must walk in the Spirit. The fruits of the Spirit are evident but those not from the spirit must be brought to the light and exposed. We are not to tolerate unfruitful things and instead exposed them for what they are.

In other words, kick some evil butt.:thumbsup::clap::clap:

[Annabel Lee]

The hard part is identifying evil. It's not always so clear.

[Hentenza]

The hard part is identifying evil. It's not always so clear.

Ah! But verses 3-6 tell you what not to "partner" with. :wave:

[Lisa0315]

Yes, evil is relative. There are some who think athiests are evil. I think of them as potential brothers and sisters. I find the wolves in sheep's clothing to be the ones who are truly evil. Those who profess Christ but act like Satan. I think abortion is evil, but I have sympathy for the mothers in some cases. I think the abortionists and lobbying groups are evil. I think homosexuality is evil, but I have sympathy for GLBT's because I feel that they are deceived and worse they receive such a mixed message from Christians regarding their lifestyle.

See what I am saying? So, do we cut off all contact with atheists, homosexuals and women who have had abortions? I don't think so. I think this Scripture talks about those who are gossipy, instigators, liars, and many other things. We are supposed to reach out to sinners but not congregate with those who not only sin but do it with glee and malice. Does that make sense?

Lisa

[Nicki4Christ]

We are to reprove 'expose' these works not by going around condemning the people who do them but simply by being light.

This shines a light on dark deeds ,so that they might be encouraged to change.

1 Thessalonians 5:4-5--"Ye, brethren, are not in darkness.... Ye are all sons of light." Since God is light and He gave birth to us, we too become light.

Thanks MrJim for this.. It helps me to take a closer look at myself. Are my actions in light? I know I need to work on this daily.:prayer:

[Annabel Lee]

Ah! But verses 3-6 tell you what not to "partner" with. :wave:

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Okay, here is 3-6. But again, it's difficult to tell by outward labels or signs. Those who appear righteous and holy, may in fact be a smug, vainglorious false followers of Christ.
Take for example the Parable of the Good Samaritan.
Just who is our neighbor?

[rebel_conservative]

Yes, evil is relative. There are some who think athiests are evil. I think of them as potential brothers and sisters. I find the wolves in sheep's clothing to be the ones who are truly evil. Those who profess Christ but act like Satan. I think abortion is evil, but I have sympathy for the mothers in some cases. I think the abortionists and lobbying groups are evil. I think homosexuality is evil, but I have sympathy for GLBT's because I feel that they are deceived and worse they receive such a mixed message from Christians regarding their lifestyle.

See what I am saying? So, do we cut off all contact with atheists, homosexuals and women who have had abortions? I don't think so. I think this Scripture talks about those who are gossipy, instigators, liars, and many other things. We are supposed to reach out to sinners but not congregate with those who not only sin but do it with glee and malice. Does that make sense?

Lisa

:amen: you got it exactly

if I have a penny for every time I got the message "you must spread some reputation around before you give it to lisa0315 again" I would be rich

it doesn't mean don't associate with 'evil' people, it means that you should reprove them, tell them the error of their ways, don't let their behaviour slide. this is consistent with Jesus's own behaviour of meeting with outcasts etc and urging people to sin no more.

[Hentenza]

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Okay, here is 3-6. But again, it's difficult to tell by outward labels or signs. Those who appear righteous and holy, may in fact be a smug, vainglorious false followers of Christ.
Take for example the Parable of the Good Samaritan.
Just who is our neighbor?

Hey Annabel,

Yes, the parable of a good Samaritan is a good example of people that do not display good fruit. There are a few verses thought out the scriptures that do give us an idea of what to look for. An examples would be Matthew 7 and Luke 6 [ A tree and it's fruit].
There are others but I can't remember them right now.
However, you are correct is saying that some will appear as something that they are not so we always have to be in the look out for those wolfs in sheep clothing.:wave:

[Hentenza]

it doesn't mean don't associate with 'evil' people, it means that you should reprove them, tell them the error of their ways, don't let their behaviour slide. this is consistent with Jesus's own behaviour of meeting with outcasts etc and urging people to sin no more.

Absolutely Rebel. Jesus was blamed for eating with sinners.:thumbsup:

[MrJim]

I Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person

Here's a case where ya wouldn't eat nor fellowship with a brother or sister...

[Annabel Lee]

Hey Annabel,

Yes, the parable of a good Samaritan is a good example of people that do not display good fruit. There are a few verses thought out the scriptures that do give us an idea of what to look for. An examples would be Matthew 7 and Luke 6 [ A tree and it's fruit].
There are others but I can't remember them right now.
However, you are correct is saying that some will appear as something that they are not so we always have to be in the look out for those wolfs in sheep clothing.:wave:

I'm normally not on the lookout for wolves in sheep clothing, but I do notice people (Christian or otherwise) that love their neighbor.
It's not hard, since they seem like bright lights in this generally dark Earth of ours.

37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, `Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 `And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 `When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "The King will answer and say to them, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
--Matthew 37-40

So yeah, I like nice people. :) They give hope and inspiration to the rest of us.

[MrJim]

I find this a troubling passage, for it addresses much of what goes on around these forums and the church in America.

The word "fellowshipped" is tossed around too easily. Are we to fellowship with militant homosexuals and abortionists, calling themselves as Christian? The term has come to mean "polite tolerance".

Consider that the passage says that we are to be apart ("do not partake with", "have no fellowship"). This is in context of those naming themselves as brothers and sisters. This then further makes sense when examining Jesus' dealings with the religious~pharisees & sadducees. Now the liberals will label conservatives as "pharisees", yet they can be as guilty of it as we can be. It doesn't say that those brothers violating aren't Christians, though the whole wrath of God/children of disobedience seems to come into play here.

So when one calls themselves Christian but are actively involved in homosexuality~having a "partner", then they are engaged in fornication~verse 3. This applies to "straights" too, and this can steer in the issue of divorce pretty easily, another "hot" topic.

Abortion is viewed as murder amongst conservatives, that can put under "uncleaness" also in verse 3.

But these are all easy & obvious things.

NOW THE REAL REASON FOR POSTING THIS PASSAGE

http://foru.ms/t6073443-best-movies-ever.html

http://foru.ms/t6054485-worst-movies-ever.html

I've been pondering over this stuff~hey one of those threads is mine~about how much we are fellowshipping with those works of darkness in our "entertainment & recreation".

...let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. KJV

4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. ESV

We have the same entertainments as the lost heathen, we are supposed to be His chosen, yet we can hardly be separated from everyone else other than "religious services".

We've become a domesticated slave to the culture, excusing it because "everyone else is doing it", and somehow I think we are missing the boat.

Not sure why those two threads have struck me this way. TV thread wouldn't really sink in I guess since I don't watch anymore, but the movie thing has me wondering about this fellowshipping business. It's easy to point at the homosexual and abortionists, not so easy to examine myself.

[Lisa0315]

Wonderful post, MrJim. Dont you ever leave us again!

This goes along with my thread about Membership Guidelines. Remember?

I wanted to know what kinds of things we can do here at 4U to be that light. Can we start a list here?

Like for example, let's say that we are not to fellowship with these brothers and sisters, but rather only teach truth to them. Does that mean that we do not participate in games with them, or light banter, or put them on ignore? So, we understand the Scripture, but how do we apply it?

Example: I am currently participapting in WWMC in regards to PeaceLover's aka David's Sweetheart's engagement. We didn't allow her to be a member here although I really wanted her here because I felt that by our influence and friendship, we could help settle her down. Instead, she has found a place in WWMC and some of their advice to her is not exactly Scriptural.

So, now that DS has self-identified as Liberal, do I not fellowship with her? I don't think that is quite right.

So, how do we apply this Scripture to our lives and especially here?

Lisa

[MrJim]

Wonderful post, MrJim. Dont you ever leave us again!

This goes along with my thread about Membership Guidelines. Remember?

I wanted to know what kinds of things we can do here at 4U to be that light. Can we start a list here?

Like for example, let's say that we are not to fellowship with these brothers and sisters, but rather only teach truth to them. Does that mean that we do not participate in games with them, or light banter, or put them on ignore? So, we understand the Scripture, but how do we apply it?

Example: I am currently participapting in WWMC in regards to PeaceLover's aka David's Sweetheart's engagement. We didn't allow her to be a member here although I really wanted her here because I felt that by our influence and friendship, we could help settle her down. Instead, she has found a place in WWMC and some of their advice to her is not exactly Scriptural.

So, now that DS has self-identified as Liberal, do I not fellowship with her? I don't think that is quite right.

So, how do we apply this Scripture to our lives and especially here?

Lisa

I know not this one you speak of.

There are those there that are defiant against God's word in defending their homosexuality and abortion beliefs. If they call themselves Christians then I cannot fellowship with them.

Fellowship is more than casual conversation and lending the neighbor a cup of sugar...

BUT AGAIN~I have beam in my own eye to deal with, recall the reason for the post again. The conservative church has great need to examine itself ~ I suspect this is maybe some of what JimfromOhio is getting at.

[Lisa0315]

I know not this one you speak of.

There are those there that are defiant against God's word in defending their homosexuality and abortion beliefs. If they call themselves Christians then I cannot fellowship with them.

Fellowship is more than casual conversation and lending the neighbor a cup of sugar...

BUT AGAIN~I have beam in my own eye to deal with, recall the reason for the post again. The conservative church has great need to examine itself ~ I suspect this is maybe some of what JimfromOhio is getting at.

I agree! So, how do we become the light here, Jim? How do we fix "us"?

Lisa

[Rep Daddy]

I'm normally not on the lookout for wolves in sheep clothing, but I do notice people (Christian or otherwise) that love their neighbor.
It's not hard, since they seem like bright lights in this generally dark Earth of ours.

37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, `Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 `And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 `When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "The King will answer and say to them, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
--Matthew 37-40

So yeah, I like nice people. :) They give hope and inspiration to the rest of us.


Annabel, I am glad you are posting here. In addition to wolves in sheep's clothing beware kitties that have pentagram stigmata.

You friend,
drstevej

[Lisa0315]

Annabel, I am glad you are posting here. In addition to wolves in sheep's clothing beware kitties that have pentagram stigmata.

You friend,
drstevej

Pastor Steve,
We could really use your guidance here.

How do we correct ourselves here? How do we become the light of CF instead of the stick poking out other people's eyes?

Lisa

[Miss Shelby]

Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. 14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Thoughts?I look at it more as instruction to have fellowship with fellow, likeminded believers. My closest friends are Christians, and serious about it. I don't have very many, but numbers are not what counts. I think it's also important to be involved in things that keep one in touch with the Christian life, such as service through Church and also fellowship activies.

AA is an organization that operates this way. It's based on trust and all of the members have a common goal. To stay sober through the Grace of God. They find immense support and friendship through this program, whose principals are very Christian.

I know that when I am not around other people who are Christian and active in the life, I can feel myself slip away.

But I have plenty of people I would consider friends who have different beliefs than I do, I just try to be the best Christian I can be so that maybe they can see Christ in that. And I don't really get together with them on a social basis, like work friends, very often, due to lack of time and because my family and other friends come first.

[Rep Daddy]

Pastor Steve,
We could really use your guidance here.

How do we correct ourselves here? How do we become the light of CF instead of the stick poking out other people's eyes?

Lisa

Annabel might like to join in. We got to be friends at IIDB and I find her perspective worth adding to the answer.

First, I think it is important to be yourself in Christ. Our light is only the light of Christ in us. So being genuine I think is key.

Second, be willing to present the truth despite the response. Do it in your own style but biblical truth transforms. I find many PM me for pastoral input based on my posts they have read. Often they have only been lurkers.

Third, guard this place! A biblical community I believe is contagious,

Fourth, got hang around in here too much. Hit the streets (forums) and see what happens.

And Lisa, as staff you have a good opportunity to encourage other staffers. It is a thankless task often and an encouraging word / a few reps / a guest book entry can really be encouraging.

As FORU.MS gets darker amid postmodern haze, the light of the gospel shines brighter. So preach the word in a style that is you and trust the Lord to use His word.

And finally, do not make it your goal to be liked. Remember there are more lurkers than those posting and often they are the most receptive.

Just my 2 cents and not the final answer.

Steve

[Rep Daddy]

PS - A New Dawn and I went round and round over doctrine, etc. before she grasped some of the key issues. It was a rocky road but she always would check out the Scripture I gave her. And now she is an awesome mod (SA) and makes an impact here.

[MrJim]

I agree! So, how do we become the light here, Jim? How do we fix "us"?

Lisa

Consider first the Corinthian passage earlier noted:

1Cor5: 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

This is a pretty clear first step in dealing with others on this matter. Paul clearly is defining a difference between believers, or as he calls it "any man that is called a brother", and unbelievers, the people "of this world". So if a homosexual or abortionist earnestly is called a brother, then I cannot have fellowship with that person, for the scripture is clear in this manner.

Regarding the nature of self:

1Cor9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
If I watch this sort of thing under the guise of "entertainment" am I not partaking of the same?

...continuing the same passage:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
...have I crucified the flesh?

Crucifying the flesh~of course Jesus said:

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

...and it goes on and on, I would dare say it's the theme of the gospels, this crucifying self and following Christ. How it is done then is the question, in that as a society american evangelical christians tend to be about the same as nonchristians in lifestyle~that is, how we live, work, play. It just has some religious croutons sprinkled in.

...gee this got kinda long:o

[MrJim]

Yes, evil is relative.

Evil is not relative.

Evil in how we deal with other is~if it's one called a brother engaged in evil we deal with it one way, if it's one "of the world" we deal with it in another.

See earlier post.

[Rep Daddy]

Evil is not relative.

You never knew my brother in law.

[Debi1967]

Yes, evil is relative. There are some who think athiests are evil. I think of them as potential brothers and sisters. I find the wolves in sheep's clothing to be the ones who are truly evil. Those who profess Christ but act like Satan. I think abortion is evil, but I have sympathy for the mothers in some cases. I think the abortionists and lobbying groups are evil. I think homosexuality is evil, but I have sympathy for GLBT's because I feel that they are deceived and worse they receive such a mixed message from Christians regarding their lifestyle.

See what I am saying? So, do we cut off all contact with atheists, homosexuals and women who have had abortions? I don't think so. I think this Scripture talks about those who are gossipy, instigators, liars, and many other things. We are supposed to reach out to sinners but not congregate with those who not only sin but do it with glee and malice. Does that make sense?

Lisa
No we don't cut off contact with them but at the same time have to realize that they do not walk in the same light that we do. Iows they do walk in darkness. We are told in that scripture to reprove them for their sin, but not to fellowship; with them. This is so that we do not get caught up in the darkness with them.

And btw what do you think a pharisee is?

[MrJim]

No we don't cut off contact with them

1Cor5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Tim1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Yeah, I do read here that there is a "cut off" point with these people.

[Lisa0315]

No we don't cut off contact with them but at the same time have to realize that they do not walk in the same light that we do. Iows they do walk in darkness. We are told in that scripture to reprove them for their sin, but not to fellowship; with them. This is so that we do not get caught up in the darkness with them.

And btw what do you think a pharisee is?

I think a Pharissee today is one who professes Christ, but does one of two things. Either they teach such a legalistic doctrine that all are condemned or they teach such a watered down gospel that no one is ever saved.

Lisa

[MrJim]

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

:eek: The results of fellowshipping with the unfruitful works of darkness, this could be used as an example in so many different ways..

[MrJim]

Colossians 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. 5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

In putting away these things~crucifying them in myself~I need to put away also those things which speak of them, like movies and books and tv. It is not enough that I don't "do" them, but I can't live vicariously in media through them either.

[MrJim]

...am I moving from conservative to fundamental (or just mental)?

[Lisa0315]

...am I moving from conservative to fundamental (or just mental)?

How about Conservamental? :D

Lisa

[Miss Shelby]

...am I moving from conservative to fundamental (or just mental)?You're a funny-mentalist. :)

[Hentenza]

...am I moving from conservative to fundamental (or just mental)?

Yes, it is mental!!!:D I understand, been there done that!!!:thumbsup:

[rebel_conservative]

In putting away these things~crucifying them in myself~I need to put away also those things which speak of them, like movies and books and tv. It is not enough that I don't "do" them, but I can't live vicariously in media through them either.

the media certainly doesn't help people's struggle, it doesn't even try to shock anymore, there is no where else they can go.
immorality is just a casual part of the media world, even normal tv shows are infected with the world-view of the writers and directors.

is there are TV show you can watch where people dress modestly? how about one that does not show any premarital sex? or doesn't glorify sin? or doesn't treat sin as natural and acceptable part of the human condition?

very sad to have to give up all of these things :(

[Debi1967]

the media certainly doesn't help people's struggle, it doesn't even try to shock anymore, there is no where else they can go.
immorality is just a casual part of the media world, even normal tv shows are infected with the world-view of the writers and directors.

is there are TV show you can watch where people dress modestly? how about one that does not show any premarital sex? or doesn't glorify sin? or doesn't treat sin as natural and acceptable part of the human condition?

very sad to have to give up all of these things :(
I don't know I watch HGTV the Health channel and History channel mostly. I do not watch syndicated television anymore and when I watch the news which even then is not very often I usually watch Fox News, which is usually pretty unbiased, but at the same time I have had to even turn the news off on occasion because it just got into things that were not news worthy in my eyes.

[Debi1967]

duplicate

[rebel_conservative]

I don't know I watch HGTV the Health channel and History channel mostly. I do not watch syndicated television anymore and when I watch the news which even then is not very often I usually watch Fox News, which is usually pretty unbiased, but at the same time I have had to even turn the news off on occasion because it just got into things that were not news worthy in my eyes.

what is HGTV?

Fox news is great ^_^ :clap: I wish I was still able to get it

yeah, there is a huge amount of celebrity gossip and other fripery classed as 'news' :doh:

[Debi1967]

what is HGTV?

Fox news is great ^_^ :clap: I wish I was still able to get it

yeah, there is a huge amount of celebrity gossip and other fripery classed as 'news' :doh:
Home and Garden Television
It is a Do It yourself network like DYI is and has all these shows that show you home improvement techniques that you can do on the cheap that make your house beautiful and I am into that kind of stuff.

[MrJim]

Romans12 1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be conceited. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. 20 To the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head. 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Continued passages tied in with having no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness...note in this chapter the nature of the Christian life is expounded again, with similar passages that can be found elsewhere in the NT.

I want to focus a bit on this:
3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment,

Often in my walk I think of myself as being mature and confident in dealing with things such as entertainment. I can "handle" this sort of movie, I can be "objective" in watching this, though I certainly don't think kids or immature Christians should view it.

Yet how often am I using this as an excuse to avail myself to the WORLD's ways? At what point am I any different than the unsaved when I have the same taste in entertainments as he? I am only fooling myself~thinking more highly of myself than I ought~in that this will not effect me in any way. Yet it does, and not admitting it is only lying to myself. A true turning from the world is going to create a different creature~that new creature scripture speaks of.

Whenever I am putting myself ahead of another, that is thinking more highly of myself. The "self-esteem" lie (that you need to trust/love/believe in yourself) makes it easy to want to put myself ahead, after all it's simply being "assertive", letting myself be heard and not being a "doormat", right? That is what this world is teaching us~yet our passage says we are to be renewed, not conformed. It ain't about us, church~it's about them.

:prayer:

[Miss Shelby]

Romans12 1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be conceited. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. 20 To the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head. 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Continued passages tied in with having no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness...note in this chapter the nature of the Christian life is expounded again, with similar passages that can be found elsewhere in the NT.

I want to focus a bit on this:
3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment,

Often in my walk I think of myself as being mature and confident in dealing with things such as entertainment. I can "handle" this sort of movie, I can be "objective" in watching this, though I certainly don't think kids or immature Christians should view it.

Yet how often am I using this as an excuse to avail myself to the WORLD's ways? At what point am I any different than the unsaved when I have the same taste in entertainments as he? I am only fooling myself~thinking more highly of myself than I ought~in that this will not effect me in any way. Yet it does, and not admitting it is only lying to myself. A true turning from the world is going to create a different creature~that new creature scripture speaks of.

Whenever I am putting myself ahead of another, that is thinking more highly of myself. The "self-esteem" lie (that you need to trust/love/believe in yourself) makes it easy to want to put myself ahead, after all it's simply being "assertive", letting myself be heard and not being a "doormat", right? That is what this world is teaching us~yet our passage says we are to be renewed, not conformed. It ain't about us, church~it's about them.

:prayer:weird that you should mentioned this. When I first read your thread I thought of this passage. And doesn't it also say in Philipians to treat others as though they are better, and to not think we are better than others? I don't think this is meant in an unhealthy way-- I think it just means to treat others with the respect they deserve as humans made in the image of God. I think the passages speak of humility. And you're right, the world teaches us the exact opposite, to look out for number 1.

[rebel_conservative]

Home and Garden Television
It is a Do It yourself network like DYI is and has all these shows that show you home improvement techniques that you can do on the cheap that make your house beautiful and I am into that kind of stuff.

that's nice :) you must have a beautiful home

Often in my walk I think of myself as being mature and confident in dealing with things such as entertainment. I can "handle" this sort of movie, I can be "objective" in watching this, though I certainly don't think kids or immature Christians should view it.

I think that when I am watching something, there is the nagging feeling that I know I should not watch it, but I am corrupted by the world, that I kid myself I can handle it. If there is nudity on tv, I either turn away (if it is one of those 'integral to the plot' things :sigh: ) or I just turn tv over, I just don't like it. but often the themes are simply wrong, showing women as sexually available, casual sex as natural and advisable, abortion as an option and other things that we can't turn away from. I think we should turn the tv off at this point, but it is very difficult.


Yet how often am I using this as an excuse to avail myself to the WORLD's ways? At what point am I any different than the unsaved when I have the same taste in entertainments as he? I am only fooling myself~thinking more highly of myself than I ought~in that this will not effect me in any way. Yet it does, and not admitting it is only lying to myself. A true turning from the world is going to create a different creature~that new creature scripture speaks of.

I agree, it does not seem right that the only distinction between us and the unsaved is a simple profession of faith, you are right, it should be manifest in other ways.

[JPPT1974]

We need to not be conformed to the world
As God isn't as we need to look
More above to heaven.

[MrJim]

I posted this in another thread, thought I'd put it here too.

Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

The new FU allows all, so if believers want to work in this atmosphere we'll have to deal with these issues as they arise. I has to be noted that with all the "Jesus ate with sinners" passages there is still the rest of scripture to deal with too. And He gave no OK to the heathen worship of the day, in fact spoke often of the Kingdom of God, and the exclusivity of worship to Him alone.

1Cor5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person

All in the context, scripture teaches that we do not fellowship with unrepentant brethren in these cases~not the world of unbelievers in their sins, but with believers. I then cannot fellowship with many that are called Christians that fall into this category, because as new creatures in Christ they are to know better (through Holy Spirit conviction, through teaching, through scripture, through admonition of elders). And guess what? When I am unrepentant and in sin I have to be confronted~I have to be disfellowshipped (is that a word?) until I've repented of my sin, yet in our "I'm ok you're ok we don't judge" world this doesn't happen much at all~but it does happen, and I've had posters here get on me when I'm out of line (lambslove was aces at this for me). It's easy to look at a "Christian Satanist" (whatever that might mean ) and disregard the wrath-filled brother that is "on your side". I can sit at the sidelines and cheer "Go get 'em", but that is not what we are called to be or do.

Lines are blurry, and we are in the midst of spiritual warfare, unfortunately it comes as "flesh and blood" battles so often, instead of recognizing that there are bigger forces in play.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

So we need to reprove

reprove verb [ trans. ] reprimand or censure someone

and it appears from the scripture that this is in context of the church not the world. The unredeemed world is not going to hear us

1Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Yet this does not give us license to engage in war against the unbelievers or the darkness within the church on a physical plane. Scripture gives us guidelines, the historic church gives us guidelines (though this has been abused as times) on dealing with darkness within the congregation...our call is to go and preach, go and love, go and forgive, go and feed, go and visit, go and BE the Body of the risen Christ. When abused we turn the other cheek, when angry and vindictive seeking revenge (mea culpa) scripture says:

Rom12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

In recent months I had moved toward the power/force end of things, which is opposite of my mennonite background. But it was shown to me after my angry outbursts of the 777 changes that this is not the way~and I'm drifting back toward the anabaptist, and I believe scriptural & historical, way of viewing conflict. I'll be viewed as too liberal to be conservative and too conservative to be liberal, but the chips have to fall where they will, ya know?

...went long again...


Jim

[ContentInHim]

MrJim - I am so sorry but I just messed up your perfect rep (77,777) because of your post above. :P

[MrJim]

MrJim - I am so sorry but I just messed up your perfect rep (77,777) because of your post above. :P

That was a strange line of sevens there.

:hug:

[ContentInHim]

Yeah - I was getting ready to go outside and check the cloud formations for our savior's feet but .... had to check the next thread. :P

What I should have done was copied it to my post for posterity. :D

[JoeWill]

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Those foolhardy enough to try scrumping at night.

[GreenMunchkin]

Those foolhardy enough to try scrumping at night.Heh. Scrumping. Quintessential Zummerzet :clap:

[ContentInHim]

What on God's really really green earth is scrumping? :P

[MrJim]

What on God's really really green earth is scrumping? :P

:confused: good question, if them brits would jes learn good english:D

[JoeWill]

What on God's really really green earth is scrumping? :P
Scrump = cider

Scrumping = the act of stealing of fruit from someone else's orchard


Those who attempt to go scrumping at night might have limited success in finding any apples - "the fruitless works of darkness" ^_^

[MrJim]

again, from another thread but same theme:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freitag
That would be fine if people were actually exposing the works of darkness. However for the most part that "exposing of darkness" involves the repitition of inaccuracies, falsehoods, misassumptions or urban legends
That there are abuses cannot be disputed; it does not mean we decide the system won't work.

This is where grace and mercy are called into play. Because one child had an abusive parent doesn't make parental correction abusive.

Then there will be those that have decided to rebel against the Word, and decide that what scripture says is dark is really light. At that point the one doing the reproving simply steps away in grace and love and walks away. This is often where the conflict is instead escalated. I say X is right, and you say X is wrong. If after discussion we come to no conclusion, and this issue is one of conviction (as opposed to opinion or taste), we will part and journey on our separate ways. I have convictions that I will die over, but I also have a lot of opinions that I'll not bleed for. Take baptism for example~I believe in what is commonly called "believer's baptism", my opinion is that this is the correct doctrinal teaching. But my paedobaptist [infant baptism] friends present a great arguement, and can't honestly say that they are wrong. So it's one of the "agree-to-disagree" sorta things. Then there is the teaching of the deity of Christ. That is a point of which there is no room for compromise...so if after discussion one believes that Christ is not the Son of God, and yet calls himself a Christian, I would at some point have to break fellowship. This may actually take years to happen, because with young/new Christians there will be some time to learn some of the historical teachings. Key to this plays on to whom I'm discussing. I can minister to unbelievers of any stripe for the rest of my life; believers that want to disregard or change the teaching of the scripture/church~generally using the historic creeds as a guideline~will become out of fellowship.

Coming from something of an anabaptist background I can speak to the history of being on the outside looking in. The Roman Catholic and Protestant groups of the Reformation declared the anabaptists to be heretics (prison to exile to execution) because the anabaptists did not "fit" their definition of what a Christian is, and as I said before, instead of simply disfellowshipping and moving on, they escalated the conflict by force. Many fringe groups today will look to those anabaptists as a model, they just need to be sure they read the scripture as honestly as those folks did, but the "honestly" is in the eyes of the beholder, for the RC & Protestants didn't think they were interpreting it correctly either

<<*What is interesting is that while I'm writing this I am up and down the stairs teaching my son Drafting Perspective for his art class. Perspective....hmmmmm sorta fits in here~I had him get as far away from the kitchen table and then put his eyes right up to the edge to grasp perspective~make me wonder what I'm missing*>>

I say all that to say we'll have disagreements, we'll part and go on our journeys in Christ in different ways. I may think incorrectly you are wrong, but if I will simply disagree with love and grace I'll account for my mistake later. I may think correctly that I am correct, yet conduct myself in a most heinous way to defend my position to the point of persecution, then the love has long since gone, and the scripture warns of this:

I Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Don't matter how spiritual or educated or faithful or anything, without agape love it's all just nothing, just trash. AGAIN, this isn't the only passage in the scripture, and it doesn't excuse sin, the New Testament must be looked at in its entirety. But this love business~love Christ in God showed to us~is the crux. Otherwise we just have religion wars...

...went long again smarter folks than me (JimfromOhio comes to mind) are far more able to be succinct in writing, I write like I talk, gaffs 'n all

[ContentInHim]

And a hearty :amen: MrJim! :hug:

[JoeWill]

All in the context, scripture teaches that we do not fellowship with unrepentant brethren in these cases~not the world of unbelievers in their sins, but with believers. I then cannot fellowship with many that are called Christians that fall into this category, because as new creatures in Christ they are to know better (through Holy Spirit conviction, through teaching, through scripture, through admonition of elders).

So what should our reaction be to the Liberal Forum where there will be born-again Christians who should know better over many moral issues, but perhaps also non-Christians and seekers of the truth, as well as those who are mistaken to think upon themselves as "Christian" because they have received a false gospel?

Should we post our thoughts in that forum or not?

[MrJim]

Scrump = cider

Scrumping = the act of stealing of fruit from someone else's orchard


Those who attempt to go scrumping at night might have limited success in finding any apples - "the fruitless works of darkness" ^_^

Aah it all makes sense now:D

[MrJim]

So what should our reaction be to the Liberal Forum where there will be born-again Christians who should know better over many moral issues, but perhaps also non-Christians and seekers of the truth, as well as those who are mistaken to think upon themselves as "Christian" because they have received a false gospel?

Should we post our thoughts in that forum or not?

If you see this, I would recommend (and I've done this) simply PM'ing the person, and gently & lovingly invite a discussion on the issue. Landing in the lib forum and trying to "correct" them is what they did to us causing all sorts of problems. One on one is best.

[MrJim]

2Cor6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,18 and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.

This passage often gets tossed out as simply for "marriage" or sometimes "business partners" but it doesn't seem to specify any particular exclusive situation~just the Christian life in general.

[Simon_Templar]

hmm...I think we need to do a study of that lest we become people who cross the street rather than be seen in the company of sinners.

Naturally, I AGREE with the Scripture, but I am wondering how do we do that without being Pharissees.

Lisa
I don't think that we need to worry about crossing the street... if we reprove the works of darkness, it'll more likely be the sinners who don't want to be seen with us and they'll be crossing the street :)

[Simon_Templar]

it has probably been pointed out,

BUT, this passage is talking about WORKS, not people... its not telling you, "don't be seen in the company of a sinner"

It IS telling you, "reprove evil deeds when people do them".

A point worthy of being made here, is if you are never in the company of sinners.. you won't be able to reprove their deeds because you won't be present to witness them, or address them.

[MrJim]

it has probably been pointed out,

BUT, this passage is talking about WORKS, not people... its not telling you, "don't be seen in the company of a sinner"

It IS telling you, "reprove evil deeds when people do them".

A point worthy of being made here, is if you are never in the company of sinners.. you won't be able to reprove their deeds because you won't be present to witness them, or address them.

Also addressed earlier is the nature of those calling themselves brethren yet engaging in evil deeds~these are the ones to not associate with.

But to ask again "What fellowship has light with darkness"?