Heretics and who has the authority

[GerTzedek]

visionary,

As I said before, most of these groups were little heretical sects, here today, gone tomorrow. Just because they worshipped on sabbath does not make them related to Messianic Judaism, anymore than a sect baptizing makes them related to Baptists.

[visionary]

I believe that God is moving upon His people and the signs of His movement upon their hearts is where it lead them in faith, in spite of being declared a heretic, in spite having to suffer for their faith, in spite of all the hell satan could throw at them. It matters not what they called themselves nor what period of time they came on the scene and then disappeared. What matters is that when God called they answered and said " All that you say we will do" knowing it could mean their death for believing.

[GerTzedek]

I believe that God is moving upon His people and the signs of His movement upon their hearts is where it lead them in faith, in spite of being declared a heretic, in spite having to suffer for their faith, in spite of all the hell satan could throw at them. It matters not what they called themselves nor what period of time they came on the scene and then disappeared. What matters is that when God called they answered and said " All that you say we will do" knowing it could mean their death for believing.
visionary,

Do you beleive that by being sabbatarian, it automatically makes them NOT heretical? There are no other standards of meaurement for you?

[visionary]

visionary,

As I said before, most of these groups were little heretical sects, here today, gone tomorrow. Just because they worshipped on sabbath does not make them related to Messianic Judaism, anymore than a sect baptizing makes them related to Baptists.

visionary,

Do you beleive that by being sabbatarian, it automatically makes them NOT heretical? There are no other standards of meaurement for you?Just as you posted in other threads... Judaism is not sabbatarianism.. Messianic Judaism mean having faith both in the Messiah and The commandments of God.

[Wags]

visionary,

As I said before, most of these groups were little heretical sects, here today, gone tomorrow. Just because they worshipped on sabbath does not make them related to Messianic Judaism, anymore than a sect baptizing makes them related to Baptists.
Heretics by whose standard?

[GerTzedek]

The criteria for believers was

whether jew or gentile groups... they must believe in more than two of the following under this criteria:

- mainly that the law was still valid and therefore must keep the sabbath

- believe that Yeshua is the Messiah

variences could be in

dietary laws
circumcision
keeping feasts of God
One God
etc

Just like the Messianic of today... varied but united on some matters of faith.
Messianics of today, do NOT teach that gentiles must


become circumcized
keep sabbath
keep dietary laws
keep Jewish feasts


Your idea of "Messianic Judaism" is completely different than that of UMJC and MJAA, which is very surprising to me considering that you say your congregation is MJAA. Someone is teaching you very badly.

Such things are utterly voluntary on the part of gentiles, not covenantal. This is a dividing line between Messianics and other sects. This gentile obligation idea has NEVER been the teaching of Messianics. It is why many of these groups are NOT related to Messianics. It is why Messianics as well as the gentile churches consider them heretical. It is why modern Messianics such as the MJAA and UMJC are fighting so hard to keep such ideas, as presented by One Law groups, OUT of our midst. Previously such people had their own little sects and kept to themselves. Now they want to climb on board the MJ bandwagon. Sorry, IT IS NOT US.

You have stated that your synagogue is MJAA, so I suggest you speak with your Rabbi regarding this. Which congregation are you attending? I don't think you've ever said, other than to say it was affiliated with MJAA. Get back to me and let me know what your MJAA Rabbi says.

[GerTzedek]

Just as you posted in other threads... Judaism is not sabbatarianism.. Messianic Judaism mean having faith both in the Messiah and The commandments of God.
Not everything that is sabbatarian is MJ. Please be so kind as to answer the question. Does a sect being sabbatarian, professing that Yeshua is Messiah, and that the Law is still in effect, automatically in your opinion make a group orthodox (non-heretical) ???

[Wags]

Messianics of today, do NOT teach that gentiles must

become circumcized
keep sabbath
keep dietary laws
keep Jewish feasts
Such things are utterly voluntary on the part of gentiles, not covenantal. This is a dividing line between Messianics and other sects. This gentile obligation idea has NEVER been the teaching of Messianics. It is why many of these groups are NOT related to Messianics. It is why Messianics as well as the gentile churches consider them heretical. It is why modern Messianics such as the MJAA and UMJC are fighting so hard to keep such ideas, as presented by One Law groups, OUT of our midst. Previously such people had their own little sects and kept to themselves. Now they want to climb on board the MJ bandwagon. Sorry, IT IS NOT US.

You have stated that your synagogue is MJAA, so I suggest you speak with your Rabbi regarding this. Which congregation are you attending? I don't think you've ever said, other than to say it was affiliated with MJAA. Get back to me and let me know what your MJAA Rabbi says.


Two questions for you:

1. Do you believe that the MJAA is the ultimate athourity on MJ beliefs?

2. It would appear from your above comments and comments made on other threads that you consdier "one law " folks to be heretics, is that a correct assessment of your veiw of them?

[ContraMundum]

Two questions for you:

1. Do you believe that the MJAA is the ultimate athourity on MJ beliefs?

2. It would appear from your above comments and comments made on other threads that you consdier "one law " folks to be heretics, is that a correct assessment of your veiw of them?


Good questions.

Seeing that you are putting Ger on the the spot, could you please explain FFoZ to the rest of us, to stop further confusion about them?

1) Do you believe that FFoZ is the ultimate authority on what it means to be MJ doctrinally and practically?

2) Is there anything you think ZZoZ has wrong or could improve upon doctrinally?

3) It appears that FFoZ think MJAA, TI, UMJC and Evangelicals are all heretics, is that a correct assesment? Why or why not?

[visionary]

.

[Steve Petersen]

Oy! Recognized authority?! You must be joking? ;)

[GerTzedek]

I don't like making comments about individuals, so I wouldn't call a person a heretic. Especially considering that we all make mistakes, including me. Thank goodness our salvation doesn't depend upon intellectual correctness, that when the Son of Man divides the sheep from the goats, he won't be reviewing a checklist of belief statements.

I make comments about beliefs and organizations. And don't we all?

I've edited out a paragraph here. I don't mind using the word heretic for the classic groups in history, but the word is a loaded word. That means your question doesn't get answered. Sometimes silence is the better part of valor. I wish I had said nothing to begin with, but I'm not one to shy away from questions. We ALL evaluate ideas and groups. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't want to toss around the word heretic.

I hate these words. They carry a lot of emotional overtones. I feel more free to use them regarding historical groups than present groups. However, the reality is that we all make these kinds of judgments.

[GerTzedek]

Dear Wags:
1. Do you believe that the MJAA is the ultimate athourity on MJ beliefs?

I believe the Messianic Jewish community defines itself. MJAA *is* the original community taking the name "Messianic Judaism." Therefore it follows that yes, since they coined that name for themselves, they have a right to say what it means about themselves. Since they also recognize UMJC as fellow MJ's, UMJC also gets to participate in this community self-definition.

BTW, I'm not MJAA. I don't even like MJAA much. LOL They are far too "gentile-church" still for my tastes. For that matter, so are the majority of UMJC congregations. There are very, very few Messianic synagogues I feel comfortable in. (One of the families from my synagogue is moving to Las Vegas, where three MJ congregations exist, and they are choosing to attend an Orthodox shul rather than a goyishe MJ synagogue -- I'm like THAT.) So, I hope you aren't confusing this as a "plug" for MJAA. I'm simply being reasonable.

Here are my questions for you.

Who do you think gets to define Messianic Judaism?

Do you believe that groups have a right to self-define? For example, do the Nicene Christians have a right to use the Creed to define what orthodox Chrsitianity is?

Or, do you believe that anyone who wants to take a label gets to help define that label, that if J4J want to say they are Messianic and no one need observe Torah and all Jews need to become protestants, they have a say? That if Jehovah's Witnesses claim they are Christian, they have a say?

[Wags]

Just because you "think" that an organization promotes something doesn't mean it does. Do any of the various "one law" organizations actually teach that ALL gentiles MUST follow Torah. What they state (and what I have posted several times) is that they believe that Torah is the standard of righteous living for the redeemed community regardless of ethnicty.

I guess it boils down to how you define "redeemed community". If you define it as Isaiah 56 does - those that have joined themselves to Adonai to love and serve Him - then yes, those gentiles should be keeping Torah. If you define it as gentiles who like Ruth, have said "your people will be my people and your God my God", then yes they should be observing Torah.

As far as who gets to define who/what is MJ - well according to some in this forum, just being Jewish and believing in Yeshua is enough to be called an MJ and have a voice in sorting out the MJ movement. So by that standard - J4J is messianic even if they do not uphold torah observance.

[GerTzedek]

J
As far as who gets to define who/what is MJ - well according to some in this forum, just being Jewish and believing in Yeshua is enough to be called an MJ and have a voice in sorting out the MJ movement. So by that standard - J4J is messianic even if they do not uphold torah observance.
You can be so frustrating -- do you ever answer questions? I didn't ask you what other people in the forum thought. I actually KNOW what most of the others think. I asked you for your opinion. It's like pulling teeth. I give up with you. It's too frustrating. Let's just limit our conversations to non-debatable stuff.

I'm having bagels and cream cheese. Plenty of extra. Want one?

[ContraMundum]

Just because you "think" that an organization promotes something doesn't mean it does. Do any of the various "one law" organizations actually teach that ALL gentiles MUST follow Torah. What they state (and what I have posted several times) is that they believe that Torah is the standard of righteous living for the redeemed community regardless of ethnicty.

It is up to the individuals within a church/denom/movement to pressure their leadership to be more responsible with their public statements. Sometimes this means more definition of previous statements.

Clearly, the FFoZ denomination (and that's what they have become) do not present a clear definition of what they actually believe. If one were to go to their official publications, it would be obvious that they believe one is not complete until one keeps all the observances of the Jews (as defined by them anyway)- and this is directed to Gentiles as well as Jews.

If they don't actually formally believe that, then it is their fault for not being clear with their message.

WHAT IF?:

I'm not having a go here, but just consider this.

They are using classic religious double-talk here. Let's say they teach that being Torah observant is the goal of all believers in Jesus, Jew and Gentile no matter which way you swing it. Perhaps they might water that down when pressed, but this is a common technique that all religions use- an implied insufficiency based on non-compliance with the decrees of the organisation. They way it works is this: they might say "you don't have to keep the full Torah, but if you don't, you're missing out on God's blessings". Classic control mechanism. That kind of approach allows groups to avoid the label of being legalistic while using psychological pressure on people to conform.

That's what this "[the] Torah is the standard of righteous living for the redeemed community regardless of ethnicty." looks like to me.

It is the Torah as defined by them. If you don't keep it their way, you're missing out. You wouldn't want to miss out on what God's got for you, would you? That's how it works.


I guess it boils down to how you define "redeemed community". If you define it as Isaiah 56 does - those that have joined themselves to Adonai to love and serve Him - then yes, those gentiles should be keeping Torah. If you define it as gentiles who like Ruth, have said "your people will be my people and your God my God", then yes they should be observing Torah.

What do you think? What's your opinion?

Are all the other mainstream MJ organisations full of sinners, missing out on God's promises? Are the majority of the believers in Jesus heterodox and bound for some kind of punishment or something?

Where do you stand?

As far as who gets to define who/what is MJ - well according to some in this forum, just being Jewish and believing in Yeshua is enough to be called an MJ and have a voice in sorting out the MJ movement. So by that standard - J4J is messianic even if they do not uphold torah observance.

Do you accept that others have a valid perspective, or is MJ as defined by your group the only valid way of thinking?

[Ivy]

Perhaps they might water that down when pressed, but this is a common technique that all religions use- an implied insufficiency based on non-compliance with the decrees of the organisation. They way it works is this: they might say "you don't have to keep the full Torah, but if you don't, you're missing out on God's blessings". Classic control mechanism. That kind of approach allows groups to avoid the label of being legalistic while using psychological pressure on people to conform.

That's what this "[the] Torah is the standard of righteous living for the redeemed community regardless of ethnicty." looks like to me.



You have explained this well, CM.