WoF God of Love. What about fearing God?

[Simon Peter]

Listened to a WoF preacher recently, over several days, and was fascinated that he only described God as a God of love.

He did a good job telling everyone about God's love, but never once mentioned God's discipline. Which to me is part of God's love.

He didn't mention the wrath of God at all.

He bashed the opinion that that God should be feared, lumping this in with a "religious spirit"!

I am not 'religious' by any stretch, in fact far from it. I know God as my father who fully loves me, yet I fear Him, and have experienceed His discipline. I don't think the two are exclusive at all.

It occurred to me that the preacher's one sided view must be from his WoF association. WoF seem to believe God wants you to be wealthy and healthy, and not to suffer. So I suppose an unbalenced 'God of love' only, fits with this.

Have any thoughts on this subject?

[he4rty]

From a human perspective if You love someone then you will tell them if they are going wrong no matter how much it might hurt, if you refuse to discipline a child in any shape or form then it must question how much you love that child.

But also you would not put needless suffering upon the person you love, cause that would not be true love either.

[Tamara224]

I don't really think it is a problem to over-emphasize that God is a God of love. The fact that God is Love includes that part of His character which metes out justice and discipline. For a child who is not disciplined is not loved.

The problem, imo, is in the wordly way many define "love" and "good."

It seems to me that many people believe that certain things are always bad - such as sickness and poverty. They have a hard time dealing with the fact that a God of Love could kill "innocent" people (like He did in the OT). Instead of realizing that they are applying a worldly definition of "good", they do gymnastics with Scripture to explain it away.

"Good" doesn't necessarily mean pleasant at the time.

"Love" doesn't necessarily mean "soft".

JMHO.

[jeolmstead]

I think God is Love.

I believe His dealings with us are all born out of His love. The problem arises when we try to define God’s love by our standards. (Not His)

Would a loving God command His people to go into a land they had never known, kill every man women and child and take the land?

If we believe the bible we know that God did exactly that.

God sees all creation from a level we can not ascend to. In spite of what some would like us to believe we can not know or understand things from His perspective. He chooses to reveal some things to us and for that we are gratefully amazed. There is no end to the depth of any aspect of His character. Love, Mercy, Judgment, and wrath are all manifest to degrees we do not understand.

We all know “For God so loved the world He gave his only son”

It is a good thing for us but, do you understand love so great that you would allow your child to be tortured and killed for it? Yes, wicked people kill their own children all the time, but what man would do so because of love? Who can really understand that?

Little men with little minds think that God can fit in their own head. They have Him all figured out. They come up with doctrines and dogmas to tickle the ears of other little men. They think that God exists to serve them and their own ideas. God loves them anyway and suffers their ignorance and pride in stride.

Like the Gnostics of old, they see themselves “enlightened” with secret special knowledge that empowers their prayers above and beyond those who lack their special level of faith.

To them God is love, and love is demonstrated by blessings .. It can be no other way. If it doesn’t work for you that just proves you don’t have enough faith.

John O.

[Godslilgurlalways]

From a human perspective if You love someone then you will tell them if they are going wrong no matter how much it might hurt, if you refuse to discipline a child in any shape or form then it must question how much you love that child.

But also you would not put needless suffering upon the person you love, cause that would not be true love either.
Good post:)

[Redheadedstepchild]

I think God is Love.

I believe His dealings with us are all born out of His love. The problem arises when we try to define God’s love by our standards. (Not His)

Would a loving God command His people to go into a land they had never known, kill every man women and child and take the land?

If we believe the bible we know that God did exactly that.

God sees all creation from a level we can not ascend to. In spite of what some would like us to believe we can not know or understand things from His perspective. He chooses to reveal some things to us and for that we are gratefully amazed. There is no end to the depth of any aspect of His character. Love, Mercy, Judgment, and wrath are all manifest to degrees we do not understand.

We all know “For God so loved the world He gave his only son”

It is a good thing for us but, do you understand love so great that you would allow your child to be tortured and killed for it? Yes, wicked people kill their own children all the time, but what man would do so because of love? Who can really understand that?

Little men with little minds think that God can fit in their own head. They have Him all figured out. They come up with doctrines and dogmas to tickle the ears of other little men. They think that God exists to serve them and their own ideas. God loves them anyway and suffers their ignorance and pride in stride.

Like the Gnostics of old, they see themselves “enlightened” with secret special knowledge that empowers their prayers above and beyond those who lack their special level of faith.

To them God is love, and love is demonstrated by blessings .. It can be no other way. If it doesn’t work for you that just proves you don’t have enough faith.

John O.
Wow, great post!

[ANM29]

I don't really think it is a problem to over-emphasize that God is a God of love. The fact that God is Love includes that part of His character which metes out justice and discipline. For a child who is not disciplined is not loved.

The problem, imo, is in the wordly way many define "love" and "good."

It seems to me that many people believe that certain things are always bad - such as sickness and poverty. They have a hard time dealing with the fact that a God of Love could kill "innocent" people (like He did in the OT). Instead of realizing that they are applying a worldly definition of "good", they do gymnastics with Scripture to explain it away.

"Good" doesn't necessarily mean pleasant at the time.

"Love" doesn't necessarily mean "soft".

JMHO.

Nuff said..:thumbsup:

[ANM29]

WOF'ers seem to have a unhealthy approach to life overall. ( This is my opinion and I am sticking to it and not apologizing for it )

If you say anything 'negative' according to their definition of negative some of them believe that can actually cause God to back off from you in a sense. You can lose your blessings, etc. It is some crazy stuff when I listen to some of it.

A seriously unbalanced and unhealthy approach to God and life overall.

I really wonder have any of these people had any sufferings in life since they are born of a woman like the rest of us, I really do. No joke.

[synger]

It's not particular to any one denomination. I have heard a number of fairly wishy-washy sermons. I went to a tent-meeting on the National Mall this summer where they talked all about Jesus and His love, but never really told you WHY you needed Him. No word about sin, or separation from God... so no wonder very few people seemed moved by the message.

I also think that we get wrapped up in the mystery of an immanent God, God incarnate, God in the flesh, God who loved us so much that He died for us, and forget that He is also God transcendent, God who created the universe, God who dwells outside time itself, and yet also lives with us.

I like that my catechism teaches me to confess that I "fear and love God" in my every response to His Word. Fear is a "bad" word to so many people... but I don't mean "scared I'll be hurt fear" I mean "full of awe and wonder and feeling really small and insignificant fear"

Like in the Wizard of Oz... "I am Dorothy, the meek and small..."

And yet, that fear MUST be matched and tempered with an understanding of God's love... His love to each of us personally... His love to humanity in general... His love so amazing and encompassing that we cannot fathom it, we cannot escape it, we cannot return it... we can only accept, and wonder.

[jeolmstead]

It's not particular to any one denomination. I have heard a number of fairly wishy-washy sermons. I went to a tent-meeting on the National Mall this summer where they talked all about Jesus and His love, but never really told you WHY you needed Him. No word about sin, or separation from God... so no wonder very few people seemed moved by the message.

I also think that we get wrapped up in the mystery of an immanent God, God incarnate, God in the flesh, God who loved us so much that He died for us, and forget that He is also God transcendent, God who created the universe, God who dwells outside time itself, and yet also lives with us.

I like that my catechism teaches me to confess that I "fear and love God" in my every response to His Word. Fear is a "bad" word to so many people... but I don't mean "scared I'll be hurt fear" I mean "full of awe and wonder and feeling really small and insignificant fear"

Like in the Wizard of Oz... "I am Dorothy, the meek and small..."

And yet, that fear MUST be matched and tempered with an understanding of God's love... His love to each of us personally... His love to humanity in general... His love so amazing and encompassing that we cannot fathom it, we cannot escape it, we cannot return it... we can only accept, and wonder.
Amen

[LeadWorship]

WOF'ers seem to have a unhealthy approach to life overall. ( This is my opinion and I am sticking to it and not apologizing for it )

If you say anything 'negative' according to their definition of negative some of them believe that can actually cause God to back off from you in a sense. You can lose your blessings, etc. It is some crazy stuff when I listen to some of it.

A seriously unbalanced and unhealthy approach to God and life overall.

I really wonder have any of these people had any sufferings in life since they are born of a woman like the rest of us, I really do. No joke.

Hey sister! Please know that not all "WoFers" think or act the same. And the sufferings of life are quite known to my family. However we stand on God's word. We stand in love. And when a brother or sister is suffering you do much harm to speak in a negative sense... it can and does shatter faith.

For example:
A year ago we discovered my Mom had a brain tumor. A large one. Doctors said if she lived through the surgery, that she likely would not retain much of who she was. We didn't accept that, because that was not what we believe God would bring to her. We stood on God's healing scriptures and believed the tumor would be miraculously removed. Guess what... it wasn't.

Did we let that deter us, or think that God abandoned us? No. Did we allow people to talk negatively about the situation around us? No, we even stopped medical staff from doing such.

Surgery went good, Mom was back to normal, feeling good, recovering, CAT came back clean, come back in 3 months for another CAT and followup. That followup showed that the tumor was growing back, fast. We were already standing firm, thanking God for her healing and recovery, so we just kept right on thanking him. 6 weeks of radiation and she's been tumor free for 8 months. She still has a little fuzzy patch of hair that's just growing back from all the radiation.

Point is, we didn't let negativity creep in. My family jokes, but we watch what we say, because to us it's like spreading seeds. I know that my faith is such that I won't accept negativity and latch onto it, but I don't know about the person next to me, so I guard my words as well as I can.

Oh, and hopefully some can attest, I'm not the "typical WoFer". I'm not a hard-liner, but my litmus test is the Bible, and I strive to be Spirit-Led.

It's not particular to any one denomination.

This is true. Keep up the good forum discussion all! God Bless!


oh, little PS here. In the 7 months that my Mom went through her tumor ordeal, our family was attacked hard.


My father was almost severely injured at a gas station. A runaway car took his motorcycle out from under him as he was grabbing the handle bars to throw his leg over it.
I was hospitalized with heart pains, diagnosed with poor blood flow to my heart - they still don't know why.
My little Sister was hospitalized with an unknown infection. She was in for 3 days before we took her out and carried her up to be with Mom for her initial Surgery. Mom was moved to another hospital in another state learning of her Tumor while her baby girl was in the hospital back home.
My father's mom (my grandma) was diagnosed with Heart Disease and failing and clogged arteries and given a short time to live.God is good and we thanked Him for his grace and mercy throughout it all.

[jeolmstead]

I’m glad that your mom is recovering and that apparently the surgeries and medicines worked.

However, what you describe is what anyone goes through who is fighting cancer. (Lost people have treatments and get better)

How has your “positive confession” and “forbidding negative talk” demonstrated any miraculous manifestations of the Holy Spirit? And when did Jesus ever do that, or command us to act in this manner?

The truth is, People get sick and die or get sick and recover at very predictable rates. (statistically speaking) This is how insurance companies make money.

WOF’ers are no exception. Their members get sick (or get better) at the same rate as non-WOF’ers.

I believe miracles happen, but they are the exception, not the rule, (that’s why they are called miracles) Honest to goodness miracles seem to be spread out pretty evenly across the body of Christ.

The bottom line is, WOF’ers can not produce the goods they promise even in their own ranks. Everyone knows it, but they can’t say it, that would be a “negative confession”

John O.

[LeadWorship]

I’m glad that your mom is recovering and that apparently the surgeries and medicines worked.

However, what you describe is what anyone goes through who is fighting cancer. (Lost people have treatments and get better)

How has your “positive confession” and “forbidding negative talk” demonstrated any miraculous manifestations of the Holy Spirit? And when did Jesus ever do that, or command us to act in this manner?

As you can see, I never said it did. Also, Jesus never did that or command us to do it. However my mother's spirit wasn't crushed by people constantly asking if she was scared or what was gonna happen or junk like that. We kept it positive for her, not for some miraculous healing from Holy Spirit. Apparently the feelings people have for a "WoF" overrule the care and understanding for a person who says they are that.


The truth is, People get sick and die or get sick and recover at very predictable rates. (statistically speaking) This is how insurance companies make money.

WOF’ers are no exception. Their members get sick (or get better) at the same rate as non-WOF’ers.

I've never seen a WoFer claim otherwise. I was defending myself in this thread by showing I'm no different from Spirit-filled, Spirit-led non-WoFers, however it seems all you can see is how different I am and wrong I am because I'm WoF.

The bottom line is, WOF’ers can not produce the goods they promise even in their own ranks. Everyone knows it, but they can’t say it, that would be a “negative confession”

I never promised to produce any goods. Who can make a promise on God's behalf? I see that perhaps where I was once welcome I am no longer. You just can't get past the WoF title. Sad... you are missing out on some real great folks because of it. Judge not...

[LeadWorship]

Actually, John O., did you even read my post? If you did you didn't do it with an open mind. I'm sure you thought "Oh great, a WoF'er posting in here".

I went through great pains to describe that my family has suffered, and was hit hard. Never once did I say we blamed God or that our Faith was so great we saw miraculous things happen. You saw what you wanted to see. I just laid it out on the table.

ps, here's who I am. http://foru.ms/t5729855-who-is-this-leadworship-dude.html

[jeolmstead]

Lead, I read your post again, Sorry if I misunderstood your intention.

WOFer’s do put faith in “positive confession”, to the point of lying.

They say “I’m healed” when in fact they are sick. When Jesus healed people they were healed , they were not “speaking things that are not as if they were”

WOFer’s teach that you are already healed, all you have to do is receive it through this mysterious ethereal force called “faith” Apparently however, most (including the WOF’ers) never ascend to that level for anything beyond headaches and colds.

(Now at this point someone will tell the tail about their cousin Fred’s uncle’s sister whose arm grew back at a Benny Hinn meeting Well, it could be true, I have no way of knowing. I do know that in that same meeting there were hundreds who came in sick or crippled and left the same way )

WOFer’s teach that “unbelief” (especially in their doctrine) is a negative ethereal force. It cancels out faith. It ties God’s hands and keeps Him from doing what He wants to do.

John O.

[Sabertooth]

Getting back to the OP, here's my experience with the love of God and the fear of God:

When I first found out I was a sinner, the FEAR of God's eternal judgement was my main motivation for getting saved. After walking with Him for a while, and letting Him renew my mind, I came to understand His ways are good, such as forgiving others, not hating (murder per Matt. 5:22) and the rest of the ten commandments.

We have to be graced in from where we start and when we fall (1John 1:9), but when we are there, it is a place of PEACE and JOY. Even if there was no hell, I would not want to live apart from His love, peace and joy found in the center of His will. At that place, the LOVE of God is more prominent; :clap: the FEAR of God is the furthest thing from my mind.

But other times, the tendency of the flesh draws me back into a sinful way of thinking. I recall thinking about a sister in church who is married to an unbeliever. As is typical, her husband is disrespectful to her on account of her faith. I began to think, "If she was mine, I would treat her much better..." :doh:

Not too long into that it occurred to me (from the Holy Spirit, no doubt) that I was contemplating "coveting another man's wife [Ex. 20:17]" and "adultery [Ex. 20:14]" against my own DW. :help: I repented quickly for two reasons:

1. The FEAR of God, I didn't want to come under God's judgement (anybody remember Ananias & Sapphira? [Acts 5:11]), and

2. Remembering the LOVE of God, the promise of restoration of the aforementioned JOY & PEACE and standing offer to FORGIVE me, if I confessed my sins to Him and repented of them. :hug:

He made me an offer I couldn't refuse...:bow:

[MoNiCa4316]

Good posts! :)

God is love, but we have to have the correct understanding of what love is...if we just use our own definitions, then we might be disappointed.

[geetrue]

Hey sister! Please know that not all "WoFers" think or act the same. And the sufferings of life are quite known to my family. However we stand on God's word. We stand in love. And when a brother or sister is suffering you do much harm to speak in a negative sense... it can and does shatter faith.

For example:
A year ago we discovered my Mom had a brain tumor. A large one. Doctors said if she lived through the surgery, that she likely would not retain much of who she was. We didn't accept that, because that was not what we believe God would bring to her. We stood on God's healing scriptures and believed the tumor would be miraculously removed. Guess what... it wasn't.

Did we let that deter us, or think that God abandoned us? No. Did we allow people to talk negatively about the situation around us? No, we even stopped medical staff from doing such.

Surgery went good, Mom was back to normal, feeling good, recovering, CAT came back clean, come back in 3 months for another CAT and followup. That followup showed that the tumor was growing back, fast. We were already standing firm, thanking God for her healing and recovery, so we just kept right on thanking him. 6 weeks of radiation and she's been tumor free for 8 months. She still has a little fuzzy patch of hair that's just growing back from all the radiation.

Point is, we didn't let negativity creep in. My family jokes, but we watch what we say, because to us it's like spreading seeds. I know that my faith is such that I won't accept negativity and latch onto it, but I don't know about the person next to me, so I guard my words as well as I can.

Oh, and hopefully some can attest, I'm not the "typical WoFer". I'm not a hard-liner, but my litmus test is the Bible, and I strive to be Spirit-Led.



This is true. Keep up the good forum discussion all! God Bless!


oh, little PS here. In the 7 months that my Mom went through her tumor ordeal, our family was attacked hard.

My father was almost severely injured at a gas station. A runaway car took his motorcycle out from under him as he was grabbing the handle bars to throw his leg over it.
I was hospitalized with heart pains, diagnosed with poor blood flow to my heart - they still don't know why.
My little Sister was hospitalized with an unknown infection. She was in for 3 days before we took her out and carried her up to be with Mom for her initial Surgery. Mom was moved to another hospital in another state learning of her Tumor while her baby girl was in the hospital back home.
My father's mom (my grandma) was diagnosed with Heart Disease and failing and clogged arteries and given a short time to live.God is good and we thanked Him for his grace and mercy throughout it all.

Thank you for your prespective Lead Worship ... that's one of the best testimonies of still having faith after you and your family exercised your faith to the max.

I don't want to fold in the same situation you found yourself in that's for sure. It all comes down to our personal walk with Jesus ...

You have to have faith now to face the tough situations of the future ... Gloria Copeland's daughter said that on TBN this morning and it floored me.

Gotta have that faith in reserve for when you need it.

[lismore]

1 John 4:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=4&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

:wave:

[Diatheke]

I think this is my first visit here to the non-wof forum.

Why are the Word Faith folks over here explaining and defending themselves? This is the non-wof forum after all.

If you are wof then go fellowship with your fellow wof believers, there is enough controversy without pursuing your fellow Christian brothers here in their own sanctuary.

We all believe in Christ so lets keep the main thing the main thing and let everyone work out their own faith.

[jeolmstead]

I think this is my first visit here to the non-wof forum.

Why are the Word Faith folks over here explaining and defending themselves? This is the non-wof forum after all.

If you are wof then go fellowship with your fellow wof believers, there is enough controversy without pursuing your fellow Christian brothers here in their own sanctuary.

We all believe in Christ so lets keep the main thing the main thing and let everyone work out their own faith.
Thank you!

[Tamara224]

I think this is my first visit here to the non-wof forum.

Why are the Word Faith folks over here explaining and defending themselves? This is the non-wof forum after all.

If you are wof then go fellowship with your fellow wof believers, there is enough controversy without pursuing your fellow Christian brothers here in their own sanctuary.

We all believe in Christ so lets keep the main thing the main thing and let everyone work out their own faith.

:thumbsup: Thank you!

[LeadWorship]

Hahaha, because we are brothers and sisters. Not once did I "impose" WoF ideals or beliefs. I gave a testimony. If the only way we can live beside each other is to ignore each other, then we aren't working in His love, are we.

As I said, all because of an "icon" below my name, I am no longer welcome where I once was. God's peace and love be with you. I pray we meet each other in Heaven, where denominational affliction hinders no one, and we can praise our Father Almighty as he created us to.

Selah.

[jeolmstead]

Hahaha, because we are brothers and sisters. Not once did I "impose" WoF ideals or beliefs. I gave a testimony. If the only way we can live beside each other is to ignore each other, then we aren't working in His love, are we.

As I said, all because of an "icon" below my name, I am no longer welcome where I once was. God's peace and love be with you. I pray we meet each other in Heaven, where denominational affliction hinders no one, and we can praise our Father Almighty as he created us to.

Selah.
Suppose I go over to the WOF forum and testify about how much God has taught me through suffering and how I believe He uses it (and sickness as well) to produce character in the lives of His people….

How well would it be received?

John O.

[LeadWorship]

I would recieve it well. That's my point. Some of you cannot get over "icon" to see the person. My response was to ANM29 specifically addressing:

I really wonder have any of these people had any sufferings in life since they are born of a woman like the rest of us, I really do. No joke.

Yes, I have suffered, as has my family.

[LeadWorship]

For what it's worth - as I was here posting when this sub forum was created without the WoF icon - from day 1 I understood the title to mean "Non-Wof Beliefs" not "For Charismatics - No WoFers allowed". Ironically, the icon chosen to be used for this sub-forum was actually suggested by me, and He4rty made it. We are all spirit filled and are all learning to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit. I learn things from all people, every denomination because I choose to be teachable. In the same manner, I learn from this sub-forum as well.

[LeadWorship]

What WoF Doctrine have I promoted?

[jeolmstead]

What WoF Doctrine have I promoted?
Lead,

There is nothing else I can say that I haven’t already said in this thread.

If you don’t believe what I wrote applies to you I will not disagree with you, as all I have to go by is your original post. If I misunderstood your intent I’ve already apologized.

As far as my take on WOF doctrine an how it pertains to “Positive /Negative Confession”, Faith, and Unbelief (outlined earlier in this thread) I stand on what I said.

John O.

[jeolmstead]

Let’s take them one at a time: (only my Comments)


“Like the Gnostics of old, they see themselves “enlightened” with secret special knowledge that empowers their prayers above and beyond those who lack their special level of faith.

To them God is love, and love is demonstrated by blessings .. It can be no other way. If it doesn’t work for you that just proves you don’t have enough faith.”


Yes, this was an attack on WOF doctrine, you did not misunderstand me (I stand by it) John O.


“The bottom line is, WOF’ers can not produce the goods they promise even in their own ranks. Everyone knows it, but they can’t say it, that would be a “negative confession”


Yes, I said it, I stand by it. I know of no WOF group where their doctrine is producing the fruit they claim in their own ranks. They have just as many poor, sick, and struggling people as non-WOF.

“WOFer’s do put faith in “positive confession”, to the point of lying.”

If a say something untrue that’s a lie in any court. If I’m sick, I’m sick, that’s the truth. If I’m sick and claim to be well that is a lie.


“They say “I’m healed” when in fact they are sick. When Jesus healed people they were healed , they were not “speaking things that are not as if they were”
WOFer’s teach that you are already healed, all you have to do is receive it through this mysterious ethereal force called “faith” Apparently however, most (including the WOF’ers) never ascend to that level for anything beyond headaches and colds.”


You said:

Is there anything wrong with saying the opposite of what you feel? Is there anything wrong with claiming the promises of God while you are sick or struggling? Or is it just because WoF does it that it suddenly becomes wrong?


If you lie about how you feel that is a lie. Meditating on the promises of God is a good thing. Generically picking out scripture and claiming it as your own (treating it like magic words) is unwise. This didn’t suddenly become wrong. It’s always been wrong


“WOFer’s teach that “unbelief” (especially in their doctrine) is a negative ethereal force. It cancels out faith. It ties God’s hands and keeps Him from doing what He wants to do.”
.

Some of the big ones teach it but some don’t? Ok, I’ll give you that one, since I’ve only been exposed to the big ones…..

John O.

[Jimbeaux]

I think this is my first visit here to the non-wof forum.

Why are the Word Faith folks over here explaining and defending themselves? This is the non-wof forum after all.

If you are wof then go fellowship with your fellow wof believers, there is enough controversy without pursuing your fellow Christian brothers here in their own sanctuary.

We all believe in Christ so lets keep the main thing the main thing and let everyone work out their own faith.

Simple, IMO. The reason is that WOF’ers are so nervously uncertain of their position that they feel they have to “convince” everyone that they are right just to assure to themselves that there is actually some substance to their central doctrines—esp. their weakest doctrines, PHIA/health and prosperity. They are so desperate to be right they will even invade closed forums to argue their weak positions. Only problem is, they can’t convince anyone and they so remain nervous.

~Jim
God doesn’t exist for the sake of humanity. ~C.S. Lewis

[JimfromOhio]

There is great confusion about loving self and loving God.

Just watch, they will be coming here defending their faith. They have their own sub-forum to defend their faith.

[flaglady]

Thread now cleaned of derailment. Product thread is entitled "WoF debate" and is closed.

[Diatheke]

Simple, IMO. The reason is that WOF’ers are so nervously uncertain of their position that they feel they have to “convince” everyone that they are right just to assure to themselves that there is actually some substance to their central doctrines—esp. their weakest doctrines, PHIA/health and prosperity. They are so desperate to be right they will even invade closed forums to argue their weak positions. Only problem is, they can’t convince anyone and they so remain nervous.

~Jim

God doesn’t exist for the sake of humanity. ~C.S. Lewis



Hi Jim, long time no discuss.

Why does it not surprise me that you take my post that is meant to help reconcile and turn it into ammunition to further your cause and stir things up even more.

Blessed are the peacemakers my brother.