New Trend? I hope so.

[GerTzedek]

Some of the Jews in the forum have pointed out that MJ congregations are presently mostly gentile. I think they have a valid point. It is nonsense to call a movement Jewish if it is predominatly gentile.

In all fairness, the movement began as a renaming of the Hebrew Christian Association. It has ATTRACTED gentiles. But it is also undergoing changes, and one of those changes is its renewed call to Torah observance and Jewish community.

I took an unofficial poll of my synagogue this morning. I say unofficial because of course attendence can vary greatly from week to week. But this shabbat, 2/3, or 66% were Jews. Only seven of the gentiles present were not married to Jews. Of these seven, three of us are going through conversion, and one is considering asking.

Why the difference at my synagogue? Perhaps the rabbi, who for example used today'sTorah portion (the renewal of Covenant) to speak of the absolute necessity of obedience to "all the words of this Torah," to point out that no one is to think that they can be an exception, lest they bring a curse upon themselves.

[ChavaK]

But this shabbat, 2/3, or 66% were Jews.


It would be interesting to know of this percent,
how many are halachaly Jewish. It seems from
my web surfing, that many who claim to be
Jewish are not....they have some Jewish ancestry
but not the "right type" ;)

[GerTzedek]

It would be interesting to know of this percent,
how many are halachaly Jewish. It seems from
my web surfing, that many who claim to be
Jewish are not....they have some Jewish ancestry
but not the "right type" ;)


In the UMJC, one is considered to be a Jew ONLY if they are born of a Jewish mother, is a convert to Judaism, or if they both are born of a Jewish father and also claim Jewish identity. The Jews in my synagogue grew up in Jewish congregations, most of the Conservative.

From the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Councils Standards of Observance:

JEWISH STATUS

Following the consensus of Jewish tradition, we recognize as a Jew anyone who is born of a Jewish mother or who is a convert to Judaism.
We also accept the Reform decision, which acknowledges patrilineal descent under certain conditions. In our definition, the necessary and sufficient condition consists of that individual identifying as a Jew.

[TheRabbi]

or if they both are born of a Jewish father and also claim Jewish identity.

There you have it. That drives the numbers up and it doesn't meet the halachic standard.
In fact, when scrutinized, all of their criteria are quite subjective.

Jewish Mother - This will no doubt include moms who converted through one of the reform movements.

Convert - This would surely include reform and conservative converts.

You could have a congregation in which 100% of the members meet the UMJC standard and in reality there is not one halachic Jew there.

It's the same in reform congregations.

[Bananna]

It would be interesting to know of this percent,
how many are halachaly Jewish. It seems from
my web surfing, that many who claim to be
Jewish are not....they have some Jewish ancestry
but not the "right type" ;)
Define halachaly Jewish Do you mean those simply practising Judaism?

Bananna

[ChavaK]

There you have it. That drives the numbers up and it doesn't meet the halachic standard.
In fact, when scrutinized, all of their criteria are quite subjective.
That's why I asked-many "Messianic Jews" are
not halachaly Jewish and their defining themselves
as Jews definitely pads the numbers...

Jewish Mother - This will no doubt include moms who converted through one of the reform movements.
Or Conservative, Renewal, etc.....

Convert - This would surely include reform and conservative converts.
Agreed....and there have been messianics who
have been less than honest and gone through
converisons....which of course are invalid.

You could have a congregation in which 100% of the members meet the UMJC standard and in reality there is not one halachic Jew there.
Exactly

It's the same in reform congregations.
And Conservative/Renewal....let's not pick
just on the Reform....;)

[ChavaK]

Define halachaly Jewish Do you mean those simply practising Judaism?

Bananna

Halachaly Jewish= born to a halachaly Jewish mother
or having undergone a halachic conversion...

[ChavaK]

In
JEWISH STATUS

We also accept the Reform decision, which acknowledges patrilineal descent under certain conditions. In our definition, the necessary and sufficient condition consists of that individual identifying as a Jew.

Interesting that they would accept a Reform
defintion of who is a Jew...

[GerTzedek]

I tend to agree with you on this one. I was saying to my friend the other day that by breaking with orthodox standards we were causing division.

But it is what it is. My opinion is not worth diddly squat.

The other thing which is VERY confusing is that I know at least some Orthodox accept matrilineal descent going back generations. Chabad considers me Jewish, and so do the Mizrahim. But UMJC does not (nor do I claim to be Jewish -- I would rather be on the cautious side than presumptuous.)

[Bananna]

Some of the Jews in the forum have pointed out that MJ congregations are presently mostly gentile. I think they have a valid point. It is nonsense to call a movement Jewish if it is predominatly gentile.

In all fairness, the movement began as a renaming of the Hebrew Christian Association. It has ATTRACTED gentiles. But it is also undergoing changes, and one of those changes is its renewed call to Torah observance and Jewish community.

I took an unofficial poll of my synagogue this morning. I say unofficial because of course attendence can vary greatly from week to week. But this shabbat, 2/3, or 66% were Jews. Only seven of the gentiles present were not married to Jews. Of these seven, three of us are going through conversion, and one is considering asking.

Why the difference at my synagogue? Perhaps the rabbi, who for example used today'sTorah portion (the renewal of Covenant) to speak of the absolute necessity of obedience to "all the words of this Torah," to point out that no one is to think that they can be an exception, lest they bring a curse upon themselves.

Blessings to all of you.

Wish we had that option here. All we can do for now is learn and pray for the numbers to grow.

Bananna

[ChavaK]

I

The other thing which is VERY confusing is that I know at least some Orthodox accept matrilineal descent going back generations. Chabad considers me Jewish, and so do the Mizrahim. But UMJC does not (nor do I claim to be Jewish -- I would rather be on the cautious side than presumptuous.)

As far as I know, if a person has proof they have a direct,unbroken matrilineal line of descent, they
are a Jew no matter how far back...although having
such proof could be difficult and having a unbroken
chain more than a couple of generations is probably
unlikely ( but not unknown...look at Goldie Hawn
and her daughter/grandkids to be......)

[GerTzedek]

Agreed....and there have been messianics who have been less than honest and gone through converisons....which of course are invalid.
Unless you are equally hateful of those who have gone through Reform conversions, accusing THEM of being "less than honest" if they don't tell you in advance that their conversions were Reform, then don't expect me to take your comments sersiously.

For me, I probably WILL tell any congregation that I become more involved with more than occasional visits that my conversion to Judaism is through the Messianics, but that's because I'm pathologically scrupulous. I don't think it's normal for converts to go to a new synagogue and the first thing they do is announce where their conversion was done.

[TheRabbi]

I think what she means is that quite often, Messianics hide or even outright lie about their belief in Jesus in order to get their conversion.

Also, please understand that when I say "reform" I am not necessarily referring to Reform. Conservative, specifically is a splinter from reform, renewal as I understand it is an attempt to infuse mysticism into reform ideology. For many orthodox, "reform" is an umbrella term.

[TheRabbi]

As far as I know, if a person has proof they have a direct,unbroken matrilineal line of descent, they
are a Jew no matter how far back...although having
such proof could be difficult and having a unbroken
chain more than a couple of generations is probably
unlikely

Absolutely right.

[visionary]

It is nonsense to call a movement Jewish if it is predominatly gentile.

....lest they bring a curse upon themselves.Excuse me, Messianic Judaism is Judaic style and understanding of worship, which may have attracted a large number of gentiles... but there is no need to think it will bring a curse too.

[ChavaK]

Unless you are equally hateful of those who have gone through Reform conversions, accusing THEM of being "less than honest" if they don't tell you in advance that their conversions were Reform, then don't expect me to take your comments sersiously.
What I meant was, there have been messianics
who have LIED or were blatantly deceptive about their belief in Jesus in order to convert-
that is what I meant by "less than
honest". And don't you think "hateful" is a little
strong?? Where did I indicate I "hate" them? :scratch:

For me, I probably WILL tell any congregation that I become more involved with more than occasional visits that my conversion to Judaism is through the Messianics, but that's because I'm pathologically scrupulous. I don't think it's normal for converts to go to a new synagogue and the first thing they do is announce where their conversion was done.
You should definitely advise any non-messianic congregation you visit about your conversion-
because to not do so could cause halachic problems.
The same as a Reform convert attending an Ortho
shul-they should advise the gabbai not to include
them in the minyon or be called to the Torah... for
the same reason..to avoid halachic issues.
And I have seen non-Ortho converts do exactly
that while in an Ortho shul...

[ChavaK]

I think what she means is that quite often, Messianics hide or even outright lie about their belief in Jesus in order to get their conversion.
Exactly what I meant, thank you for clarifying...:thumbsup:

For many orthodox, "reform" is an umbrella term.

Interesting, I have never heard it used in that context....

[Steve Petersen]

I tend to agree with you on this one. I was saying to my friend the other day that by breaking with orthodox standards we were causing division.

I would venture to guess that Contra would say the same thing about Protestant rejection of Catholic authority. ;)

[GerTzedek]

I would venture to guess that Contra would say the same thing about Protestant rejection of Catholic authority. ;)
I'm very very tempted to comment here, but I don't think advocating a particular branch of Christendom has a place in a Messianic forum, so I'll bite my tongue.

[GerTzedek]

Chavak:

We have discussed these Messianics who have lied to obtain conversions from the Orthodox. They are sick people who are not thinking right. Who in their right mind would think that any rite would be valid if done deceptively? They scandalize me as well as you. But if you can, try to understand that there is something fundamentally wrong with them that in their pursuit of goodness and G-d, they would be duplicitous. It's mixed up. If you can, find just an ounce of compassion for what is obviously some kind of personality disorder. Such people are never really very happy, as they are their own worst enemies. They tend to create their own living hells.

[GerTzedek]

The same as a Reform convert attending an Ortho shul-they should advise the gabbai not to include them in the minyon or be called to the Torah... for the same reason..to avoid halachic issues. And I have seen non-Ortho converts do exactly
that while in an Ortho shul... I'm sure some do. Do you think MOST do? Do you think MOST Conservative Converts would?

[simchat_torah]

All of the debate for the past couple of pages is mostly irrelevant to the topic at hand. IMO, it is not a trend, but a fluke (if true). I've been to dozens and dozens of MJ congregations at all ends of the spectrum, and no where have I seen anywhere close to a simple majority of Jewish attendees. Every forum on the internet is flooded with Gentile MJ's. No where, ever, have I once even seen a slight impact of Jews in the MJ movement.

Am I saying this is positive or negative? No, good or bad it is just a plain and simple fact.

If this one single congregation does in fact have a majority of Jews as members, then it is a fluke. Nothing more. No trend. Things are not headed this way... not yet anyway. I'm not going to look into a crystal ball and say they won't head in this direction eventually, but simply put, this is not a new trend.

I also would dispute the simple "polling" asking if someone is Jewish. I have seen sooooo much deception in the MJ community, sooooo many lies, soooo many gentiles claiming to be jewish because it makes them feel more "legit". Because of that, not only do I state this is not a new trend, but I would say that the poll is unreliable in the highest degree.

but that is my opinion.

[GerTzedek]

So does that mean that you won't answer my question?

It's kind of unfair for you guys to divert the topic in this direction, and then, when I have posed you a question, you say, "Oh we've gotten off topic."

[simchat_torah]

So far, I'm the only one that has answered your question... No, there is no new trend.

[nasa1]

How many Jews are there, of true Jewish blood in MJ?

[simchat_torah]

Hardly any that I've ever found. The majority of those who make such claims are typically found to be lying in order to sound more 'legitimate' to others when teaching.

[visionary]

http://www.ourrabbis.org/main/

"The MJRC consists of a group of ordained Messianic Jewish Rabbis and associated leaders who share a common vision for Messianic Jewish practice rooted in Torah, instructed by Tradition, and faithful to Messiah Yeshua in the twenty-first century." They believe that they can make a difference and bring focus for the movement in it proper setting. Sizing Up Messianic Judaism
In some respects the Messianic Jewish movement has made phe[wash my mouth]nomenal strides. Whereas a mere thirty years ago there were very few Messianic Jewish synagogues, today there are many. Back then, nothing but a grand ideal motivated us-our conviction that Jewish identity and belief in the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua, must come together. Today, we have our own buildings, day schools, adult edu[wash my mouth]cation programs, and quasi-denominational structures. In our midst many Jewish people have become faithful followers of Messiah Yeshua. We have scholars in training at Harvard, Cambridge, Duke, and other world-class universities. We have found a measure of favor among a small but growing number of mainstream Jewish leaders who, sensing the sheer breadth of Jewish orientations worldwide, want to make room for us at the Jewish table. Finally, we have had a profound impact on an impor[wash my mouth]tant segment of the Christian Church, the Evangelical community. The Lord has used Messianic Judaism to raise the consciousness of thousands of Christians to the God-ordained role of their elder brother, the Jewish people.

However, our story is not unambiguously positive. One area of great need is this: to clarify the identities of men and women, boys and girls in our synagogues. Identity confusion has been the hall[wash my mouth]mark of Messianic Judaism, in part because of our unique claim about Messiah. With that claim has come our union with two historically antagonistic communities, the Church and the Jewish people. Sorting out this dual connection is immensely challenging. But if we do not resolve the ambiguities, it is hard to imagine that we can build a viable movement that will last beyond one or two generations. One thing is clear: We can no longer travel only on the enthusiasm generated by worship, dance, and a "Big Idea." Our peo[wash my mouth]ple are confused. They don't know who they are because we have not spoken clearly to them. Many inwardly wonder...http://www.ourrabbis.org/main/content/view/18/32/

[GerTzedek]

They believe that they can make a difference and bring focus for the movement in it proper setting.
Thank you. This is exactly correct. The Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council is is seeking to bring greater focus. Its Standards of Observance, including its statement on Jewish status, is a watershed. The fact that their decisions are binding on all UMJC congregations is a leap forward in the MJ world. It has changed EVERYTHING.

What is that I hear???? Ah... the sound of dominos falling.

And these rabbis are men worthy of being followed. We do owe them our respect -- of course because of Deuteronomy 19, but even if that doesn't convince a person, then because they are so incredibly learned. I shudder what these rabbis have to go through in the UMJC yeshiva to get their semicha. For just one semester of a regular class in a regular MJ shul I read five books--Jewish history, traditions, halakha, shabbat, and a basic intro and then two other short texts and parts of other books. I had to learn to read basic Hebrew, and learned more than a dozen songs and blessings in Hebrew, yada yada. I got a stupid C on the midterm, and I don't get C's. I don't get B's!!!! I'm the student that is lazy and gets A's. It's cuz there was so much Hebrew on the test -- I so can't learn languages like I used to when I was younger. I will never confuse tzaar baalei chayim with bal taschit again! And all I have to say is this: if this is how rough his classes are with just regular people, I can't begin to imagine what his classes are like at the yeshiva. Anyone who graduates from that school has my undying respect.

[Bananna]

In a Christian Church of 100 people we have one Jewess. One!

In a congregation of 30 MJ I attend we no longer have any Jews.

In our neighboring congregation of about 35 there is one Jewish couple.

I know a Jewish Pastor and Wife ministering in Tucson Arizona who have many Jews. But Tucson has a Large jewish community.

the Demographics will change according to the demographics of the natural population.

Considering the fact that our area has so few Jewish or even mixed Jewish families living here, it is no wonder there are so few Jews in the Messianic congregations.

One can't measure trends at all without proper data. I personally know people leaving Christianity or just leaving Christian churches to assemble with Jews. The only trend I see is back to Torah observance. Not necessarily to Christianicy or Judaism.

Most the Believing Jews left due to disagreement with changes.

Bananna

[GerTzedek]

What changes were made that the Jews did not like?

[GerTzedek]

Everyone here has an opinion and this is mine. If there are no Jews present, there is something terribly wrong, and the congregations should simply admit it. They should call themselves Torah observant churches, and drop the pretense that they are Messianic Judaism. You can be a wonderful, beautiful lovely church community. But how can you be a Jewish synagogue without Jews?

[GerTzedek]

Banana, you are correct that there is a small trend of people leaving churches for Judaism in general right now. In fact, the Reform churches in my area are even running ads in the newpaper hoping to snag the unchurched. It's kind of cute. It shows a spoon with something in it, and says, "Get a taste of Judaism."