For Tish: Part of the Commonwealth

[GerTzedek]

Tish:

I was thinking today that this may help you better understand.

Canada is part of the British Commonwealth. But does that mean that Canadians are Brits? Or English? Heck no! They are still Canadians.

In the same way, when gentile believers are grafted onto Israel, we become part of the commonwealth of Israel. But we are not Israel. We remain gentiles, just as the Canadians remain Canadians.

[A_Pioneer]

But, those grafted into the Olive tree will smell like Olive trees! Do Canadians smell like Brits? I don't think so!

Shalon u'vracha

[GerTzedek]

But, those grafted into the Olive tree will smell like Olive trees! Do Canadians smell like Brits? I don't think so!

Shalon u'vracha
Oleandar branches (wild olive) grafted onto an Olive tree will never bear olives. They remain Oleandar.

I refuse to smell a Brit. I hear they ruled it a cruel and unusual punishment.

[Bananna]

Oleander is poisonous and dangerous to smell. How could a wild olive be anything like oleander.

My understanding is that those branches that bare no fruit will be cut off and branches that bare fruit will be grafted in. Oleander bears no edible fruit.

I understand this to mean that Torah observance is bearing fruit.

Ruth said, your people will be my people. Then she was of the people. Don't recall Naomi ever asking her to be a part of her people.

Yet the once moabite bore a child whos granson was King of israel.

We do not need permission to cleave to the covenant, we just need to be completely obedient.

Bananna

[visionary]

I am a Canadian.. and the laws that governed Canada before its independence still govern it today. So using that analogy, the Judaic laws that govern the people of God govern the gentiles who have been gathered into the Commonwealth of Israel.

[Wags]

Isaiah 56:3 Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the Lord say, "The Lord will surely exclude me from his people."

So the foreigner who has bound himself to the Lord (note it doesn't say bound themselves to Israel) will not be excluded from his people.

Isaiah 56:6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord to serve him, to love the name of the Lord, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant-- 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."

Again note that this is talking about gentiles who bind themselves to the Lord - to love and serve Him and keep His Shabbat. Their burnt offerings and scarifices will be acceptable in His temple.

These gentiles have bound themselves to Adonai and are keeping His Shabbat and holding fast to His covenant and making sacrfices in His temple. Their God given "style of worship" is the same as the children of Israel.

[Steve Petersen]

The Greek for commonwealth is where we get the word 'polity' from. The implication is that Paul suggests that Gentiles should be part of the politiy of Israel. Today there are Muslims who are members of the Israeli Knesset. So far, no Messianics though. ;)

[GerTzedek]

Banana,

Don't mix metaphors. The "bearing fruit" metaphor is seperate from the "grafting" metaphor. Oleandar is indeed the correct name of wild olive.

Ruth was not a graft. Ruth was a convert. She was adopted into Israel, and became a Jew.

[A_Pioneer]

Oleaster is the correct term for wild Olive, true it will not bear olives, but it does smell like Olive trees.
And Grafted in Gentiles while not true B'nei Israel, they can and do, do Chessed!

Baruch Ha’ba B’Shem Adonai
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD!

[GerTzedek]

I am a Canadian.. and the laws that governed Canada before its independence still govern it today. So using that analogy, the Judaic laws that govern the people of God govern the gentiles who have been gathered into the Commonwealth of Israel.
Yet you are a Canadian, and not a Brit, correct? :D

And so you are gentile, and not Jewish, one of the nations, part of the commonwealth of Israel, but not Israel.

[A_Pioneer]

or o·le·as·ter) noun
1. tree with fruits like olives: a small tree that is similar to the olive tree. It has silvery leaves and branches, greenish yellow flowers, and fruits that resemble olives. Genus: Elaeagnus
2. fruit of oleaster: the fruit of the oleaster, which resembles an olive.
Also called silverberry
Microsoft Encarta

[A_Pioneer]

Sha'ul is speaking of a graft into Israel of a Gentile people, a tree is not able to move on it's own. But, People are able to move on their own. This graft is like a baby sucking at the breast of Israel, dependant on the mothers milk or it will die, but this babe will grow and become able to be weaned and then is able to move about on it's own, still dependent on the Yiddish Yo Momma, but someday it will become a son of the commandments and will pass the Tzit tzit before his eyes and keep the commands because his mother has taught him well and he loves his father. Still grafted into the Commonwealth, still smelling like its parent, yet can go about and do chessed just as the Torah has revealed for him his Adopted Father, does.

Shalom

[GerTzedek]

Sha'ul is speaking of a graft into Israel of a Gentile people, a tree is not able to move on it's own. But, People are able to move on their own. This graft is like a baby sucking at the breast of Israel, dependant on the mothers milk or it will die, but this babe will grow and become able to be weaned and then is able to move about on it's own, still dependent on the Yiddish Yo Momma, but someday it will become a son of the commandments and will pass the Tzit tzit before his eyes and keep the commands because his mother has taught him well and he loves his father. Still grafted into the Commonwealth, still smelling like its parent, yet can go about and do chessed just as the Torah has revealed for him his Adopted Father, does.

Shalom
Adoption is not the metaphor. Adoption is conversion.

[A_Pioneer]

Adoption is not the metaphor. Adoption is conversion.
I am afraid you again, are mistaken! Sha'ul is speaking of adoption the same way Israel was adopted by Hashem!

Oleander and Conversion are your terms, Not Hashems nor Sha'uls. Sorry about that.

Shalom

[GerTzedek]

I am afraid you again, are mistaken! Sha'ul is speaking of adoption the same way Israel was adopted by Hashem!

Oleander and Conversion are your terms, Not Hashems nor Sha'uls. Sorry about that.

Shalom
We are adopted by God as his children. We are NOT adopted by Israel. To be adopted by the People of Israel necessarily involves the consent by Israel. Israel has set up a conversion process for this involving a beit din.

You don't just show up on someone's doorstep and say, "You've adopted me!" Otherwise Bill Gates would have millions of children.

Oleander is the scientific name for Wild Olive, which is Rav Shaul's metaphor. People in this forum need to understand that even when grafted onto an olive tree, the Wild Olive branch is not going to bear olives.

[A_Pioneer]

Ro 9:4; Ga 4:5; Eph 1:5 All Adoption passages some Israel being adopted and others Gentile coming into the Congregation as sons!
Neither Hashem nor Sha'ul are wrong!

Shalom

[nasa1]

Banana,

Don't mix metaphors. The "bearing fruit" metaphor is seperate from the "grafting" metaphor. Oleandar is indeed the correct name of wild olive.

Ruth was not a graft. Ruth was a convert. She was adopted into Israel, and became a Jew.

The Bible says that gentiles are adopted. So then, gentiles who were adopted into Israel by THE JEW Jesus, are Jewish too - spiritual Jews.

nasa

[nasa1]

Tish:

I was thinking today that this may help you better understand.

Canada is part of the British Commonwealth. But does that mean that Canadians are Brits? Or English? Heck no! They are still Canadians.

In the same way, when gentile believers are grafted onto Israel, we become part of the commonwealth of Israel. But we are not Israel. We remain gentiles, just as the Canadians remain Canadians.


Ger, you should quit while your still ahead. :)


I am Canadian, and of British and English ancestry - as many millions of Canadians are!

nasa

[A_Pioneer]

o·le·an·der [lee ándər] (plural o·le·an·ders or o·le·an·der) noun
flowering evergreen shrub: a poisonous evergreen shrub native to the Mediterranean region. It has leathery lance-shaped leaves, sweet-smelling white, pink, or purple flowers, and long seed pods. Latin name: Nerium oleander
Also called Rosebayrose·bay [rṓz bày] (plural rose·bays) noun
1. See rosebay rhododendron
2. PLANTS See fireweed
3. See oleander

o·le·as·ter [lee ástər] (plural o·le·as·ters or o·le·as·ter) noun
1. tree with fruits like olives: a small tree that is similar to the olive tree. It has silvery leaves and branches, greenish yellow flowers, and fruits that resemble olives. Genus: Elaeagnus
2. fruit of oleaster: the fruit of the oleaster, which resembles an olive.
Also called silverberry
Also called Russian olive

Rus·sian ol·ive (plural Rus·sian olives) noun
BOTANY See oleaster noun

wild ol·ive noun
tree resembling olive tree: a tree that resembles the olive tree and bears fruit that resemble olives

Encarta® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1999,2000 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

[GerTzedek]

oops. thanks. :D

[nasa1]

Ger, I don't get why it is such a "bad" thing for people to a part of Israel - haven't gentiles always been welcome into the house of Israel?

It's not a matter of the church replacing Israel - but rather us joining Israel, joining with the body believers like David and Moses and Nehemiah, being one with them - for Jesus died for those people, too.

You can't replace a believer with another believer - but you can join the crowd!

nasa

[visionary]

Ger, I don't get why it is such a "bad" thing for people to a part of Israel - haven't gentiles always been welcome into the house of Israel?

It's not a matter of the church replacing Israel - but rather us joining Israel, joining with the body believers like David and Moses and Nehemiah, being one with them - for Jesus died for those people, too.

You can't replace a believer with another believer - but you can join the crowd!

nasa I agree.... it really is too bad that back in the first century there was a schism in the faith of Judaism. I am praying that what we are seeing is the first steps towards a healing of the Judaic faith.

[GerTzedek]

I agree.... it really is too bad that back in the first century there was a schism in the faith of Judaism. I am praying that what we are seeing is the first steps towards a healing of the Judaic faith.
There is nothing "bad" in people being adopted into Israel -- Jews convert people. And similarly, there is nothing wrong with being grafted onto Israel and being part of the commonwealth.

What is wrong is identity theft: Presuming to be adopted when the Jewish People have not consented to do so.

What is so hard to understand about this? If someone started going around using your name, setting up bank accounts in your name, using credit accounts in your name, wouldn't you be angry? If a complete stranger unrelated to you showed up on your doorstep on a holiday and said, "Hey, I'm part of your family; I've decided you've adopted me; Where's the turkey?" wouldn't you be insulted and shut the door on their face?

vis, please giv me your rational how identity theft is morally acceptable.

[visionary]

There is nothing "bad" in people being adopted into Israel -- Jews convert people. And similarly, there is nothing wrong with being grafted onto Israel and being part of the commonwealth.

What is wrong is identity theft: Presuming to be adopted when the Jewish People have not consented to do so.

What is so hard to understand about this? If someone started going around using your name, setting up bank accounts in your name, using credit accounts in your name, wouldn't you be angry? If a complete stranger unrelated to you showed up on your doorstep on a holiday and said, "Hey, I'm part of your family; I've decided you've adopted me; Where's the turkey?" wouldn't you be insulted and shut the door on their face?

vis, please giv me your rational how identity theft is morally acceptable.In the first century when the disciples were still welcome in the synagogue, when Peter was given the vision of not calling the gentiles unclean, Judaism thought the followers were just another sect of Judaism. it really is too bad that back in the first century there was a schism in the faith of Judaism.But as history has it, the split occurred, and now there is a movement towards the original intent of God. I am praying that what we are seeing is the first steps towards a healing of the Judaic faith.

[GerTzedek]

vis: the first followers WERE Jews. The was BEFORE Cornelius. You can't assume that once Cornelius and other gentiles became believers that Jews considered them Jews! They just did NOT! It's absurd at face value. The Jewish believers continued to practice Judaism. The gentile believers were INSTRUCTED NOT TO.

Now, please go back and answer my question. How can identity theft be morally justified?

[visionary]

vis: the first followers WERE Jews. The was BEFORE Cornelius. You can't assume that once Cornelius and other gentiles became believers that Jews considered them Jews! They just did NOT! It's absurd at face value. The Jewish believers continued to practice Judaism. The gentile believers were INSTRUCTED NOT TO.

Now, please go back and answer my question. How can identity theft be morally justified?I have never read any biblical "instruction not to" for the gentile. You will have to show me that one.

[GerTzedek]

I have never read any biblical "instruction not to" for the gentile. You will have to show me that one.
ACTS 15 Council of Jerusalem: Decision that gentile believers need not come under Mosaic law but need only observe minimal requirements (aka Noahide covenant)

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers

22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

ACTS 21 Ya'akov speaks to Shaul years later, reiterating the decision.

25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality." 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."

[visionary]

ACTS 15 Council of Jerusalem: Decision that gentile believers need not come under Mosaic law but need only observe minimal requirements (aka Noahide covenant)

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers

22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

ACTS 21 Ya'akov speaks to Shaul years later, reiterating the decision.

25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality." 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."None of this is an "instruction not to". It is a place to start for those who have never walked in the faith.

[Wags]

Let me see if I understand your reasoning Ger. Gentiles are exempt from following the laws of Adonai with the exception of four things (things that most "mainstream chrsitians" can seem to manange to do). Does that then mean that they are free to violate all others portions of the Torah of Adonai? Are they free to lie, cheat and steal? Are they free to murder?

Why do you think God has a higher standard of righeousness (i.e right living) for Jews than believing gentiles? Doesn't scritpure say that gentiles that attach themselves to Adonai to serve and love Him are not to say that Adonai will seperate me from His people? Are they not told to hold fast to His covenants and keep His Shabbat?
Ephesians 3:6 in union with the Messiah and through the Good News the Gentiles were to be joint heirs, a joint body and joint sharers with the Jews in what God has promised.

Galations 3:28 Also, if you belong to the Messiah, you are seed of Avraham and heirs according to the promise.

[mpossoff]

None of this is an "instruction not to". It is a place to start for those who have never walked in the faith.

This is I believe the biggest concern in the Messianic movement today.

I'll be honest Acts 15 can go either way; a starting point or as Ger said an 'instruction not to'.

Ger my question is just because a Gentile keeps Torah as a native born how does that clasify him/her as a Jew?

Ger do you understand the Mystery of the Gospel?

Marc

[Steve Petersen]

Yet ANOTHER Acts 15 argument. What can possibly be said that hasn't been read by all of you a thousand times over?!

[visionary]

This is I believe the biggest concern in the Messianic movement today.

I'll be honest Acts 15 can go either way; a starting point or as Ger said an 'instruction not to'.

Ger my question is just because a Gentile keeps Torah as a native born how does that clasify him/her as a Jew?

Ger do you understand the Mystery of the Gospel?

Marc

Yet ANOTHER Acts 15 argument. What can possibly be said that hasn't been read by all of you a thousand times over?!Maybe it will get settled in this century, for all concerned.

[A_Pioneer]

Acts 15 is and was the minimum standard for gentiles to fellowship with the Hebrews in the Temple or Synagogue.
And it was the God of Avraham that did the grafting in of the Gentiles, so you who have the thought that a gift of God is tantamount to robbery, you need to speak to the God of Avraham, Yischak and Ya'acov! I don't think He will be exactlly pleased with the question! Praise God! He has quit making burnt toast of people who defy him.
Shalom

[Lulav]

Oleandar branches (wild olive) grafted onto an Olive tree will never bear olives. They remain Oleandar.

I refuse to smell a Brit. I hear they ruled it a cruel and unusual punishment.
Umm, if you graft Oleandar onto anything you will not get olives, or anything else, but you may get dead. Oleandar is a very toxic plant. I think you meant Oleaster, which is a wild olive and they do have fruit, very small and not edible perse. They will graft onto a cultivated tree but will revert back to wild small fruits if the seeds from them are used.

Only cultivated olives bear the fruits we know of today, they must be tended with care. This is why the Almighty used this as a difference between the Jews who are His chosen people and the gentiles who were not, they belonged to other gods. But when they turn from sin and their abominations and believe in the one and only true G-d through Messiah Yeshua they are then nurtured off this same love and tending. But should they try and separate themselves from the tree, they automatically revert to their former wild state. I think that makes a good picture of many Christian churches today, when you cut away 'anything Jewish', you cut yourself right off the tree.

[Lulav]

Banana,

Don't mix metaphors. The "bearing fruit" metaphor is seperate from the "grafting" metaphor. Oleandar is indeed the correct name of wild olive.

Ruth was not a graft. Ruth was a convert. She was adopted into Israel, and became a Jew.Bananna is correct, you aren't

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/depts/addl/toxic/plant52.htm

Olea is the genus name for olive and is not remotely related to Oleander. (Olive is in the Oleaceae family and Oleander is in the Apocynaceae family, along with several toxic members.)

[Lulav]

Yet ANOTHER Acts 15 argument. What can possibly be said that hasn't been read by all of you a thousand times over?! That should be left us to HaShem, I know for myself I have read Torah over and over and each time I am shown something more wonderful than before. The word of G-d is living and not static. And I believe his revelations to us continue to this day, so we never know when something new might be revealed but we should always beware that it may be misleading and test it for truth.

I don't believe we should be complacent and sit on what we know, we should always be searching, searching to increase our knowledge of His truth. If someone is comfortable where they are they don't have to read anything they don't want to. :)

[A_Pioneer]

She admitted to the mistake of the wild Olive, but to date she remains firmly entrenched that we who are not natural born Jews can not claim to be anywise of the b'nei Israel! I suppose she thinks Sha'ul was a phony Talmid or believes his press coverage. LOL

Shalom

[Lulav]

People in this forum need to understand that even when grafted onto an olive tree, the Wild Olive branch is not going to bear olives.


Here is Paul’s analogy, Two Olive trees, a cultivated olive and a wild olive. The latter produced poor fruit, which contained little or no oil; the former normally produced good fruit. The cultivated olive is Israel, the people of G-d, the wild- olive is the gentile world. But the olive began to grow weak and unproductive; old branches were cut away and a graft was made from the wild olive. The cutting away of the old branches was required to admit air and light to the graft, as well as to prevent the vitality of the tree from being too widely diffused over a large number of branches. The graft from the wild olive is the sum total of Gentile believers, now incorporated into the people of G-d; the old branches which were cut away are those Jews who declined to accept the gospel.
In such an unusual grafting, it is said, both the graft and stock on to which it is grafted are affected: the old stock is reinvigorated by the new graft, and the new graft in turn, fed by the sap of the olive stock, is able to bear such fruit as the wild olive could never produce on it’s own. The sap is the Holy Spirit which is what produces fruit.

In fact the normal way of propagation in history has been to graft a cultivated branch onto a wild root with the belied that the wild contained a longer tap root and could quickly enlarge the production, that is why maybe Paul said this was contrary to nature , or the natural way it was done.

[Lulav]

She admitted to the mistake of the wild Olive, but to date she remains firmly entrenched that we who are not natural born Jews can not claim to be anywise of the b'nei Israel! I suppose she thinks Sha'ul was a phony Talmid or believes his press coverage. LOL

ShalomI'm sorry I did not read down through the whole of the thread first. But it seems that many have had to reiterate this, and I have yet to read an apology to bananna. ? :)

[Lulav]

ACTS 15 Council of Jerusalem: Decision that gentile believers need not come under Mosaic law but need only observe minimal requirements (aka Noahide covenant)

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers

22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

ACTS 21 Ya'akov speaks to Shaul years later, reiterating the decision.

25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality." The councils main decision was to not have them circumcised (convert) and taken on the whole of oral traditions passed down, this was the yoke Peter spoke of .

'we should not make it difficult', meaning too overwhelming for them to come in, lest they become disheartened and turn away.


To me the greatest part of the covenant is #2 of the Aseret ha'debrot, were the gentiles to not worry about doing that? What is the sense of going to synagogue and hearing Torah read if it didn't apply to them as well?

Ger, do you believe that gentiles who came to faith back then were allowed to serve ham to the Jews they invited to their home, or even eat it themselves still, or do you believe that Jews no longer have to keep the Kosher laws?

[nasa1]

There is nothing "bad" in people being adopted into Israel -- Jews convert people. And similarly, there is nothing wrong with being grafted onto Israel and being part of the commonwealth.

What is wrong is identity theft: Presuming to be adopted when the Jewish People have not consented to do so.

What is so hard to understand about this? If someone started going around using your name, setting up bank accounts in your name, using credit accounts in your name, wouldn't you be angry? If a complete stranger unrelated to you showed up on your doorstep on a holiday and said, "Hey, I'm part of your family; I've decided you've adopted me; Where's the turkey?" wouldn't you be insulted and shut the door on their face?

vis, please giv me your rational how identity theft is morally acceptable.




But here's the thing your not getting: the Jewish nation and Gentile converts to Judaism will never accept the fact that Gentiles that believe in Yeshua have been adopted by G-d and are now members of the commonwealth of Israel!

So, should we deny the truth to appease them? You will have a hard time, Ger, if you live trying to please man, for you will find yourself compromising just to make people happy.


Paul didn't do that...he knew that certain members of the circumcision party were not happy with gentiles that did not go through the conversion process, but Paul didn't back down. He knew that those men were just getting offended at the cross: he knew that they were getting offended at the thought of anyone being saved by simply believing in Yeshua. The cross means that there is no work necessary on the part of the believer to be accepted by G-d - the only requirement is faith, and that is "not of yourselves, it is the gift of G-d."

NASA

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040407/040407_spaceship_hmed12p.hmedium.jpg

[visionary]

But here's the thing your not getting: the Jewish nation and Gentile converts to Judaism will never accept the fact that Gentiles that believe in Yeshua have been adopted by G-d and are now members of the commonwealth of Israel!

So, should we deny the truth to appease them? You will have a hard time, Ger, if you live trying to please man, for you will find yourself compromising just to make people happy.


Paul didn't do that...he knew that certain members of the circumcision party were not happy with gentiles that did not go through the conversion process, but Paul didn't back down. He knew that those men were just getting offended at the cross: he knew that they were getting offended at the thought of anyone being saved by simply believing in Yeshua. The cross means that there is no work necessary on the part of the believer to be accepted by G-d - the only requirement is faith, and that is "not of yourselves, it is the gift of G-d."

NASA

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040407/040407_spaceship_hmed12p.hmedium.jpgNow take this thought a step further... Acts 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith. Besides now accepting Yeshua as the Son of God, Lamb of God, and King of the Jews, did they not continue in the Judaic faith? Remember one of the last things they wanted to do was created two separate faiths. Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

[Tishri1]

The reason Ger addressed this to me was to explain how she could add supersessionism as gentiles trying to be known as apart of Israel when they are not , she believes(and please correct me if I got it wrong ok) that as part of our constitution and FSRs, we should say that subjects addressing Gentile Believers being part of Israel should be banned as Supersessionism ....And I disagreed with that, so she set up this thread to help me understand what she ment....I still disagree and think addressing Gentile Believers AS PART of Israel is good and proper and well Messianc:thumbsup:

Messianic is a mix of Believing Gentiles and Believing Jews all walking together under the Messiah and under Torah(the parts that are doable today)....we cant have a divided house when scripture says other wise....it looks like the peeps here also agree so I cant add it into our FSRs it doesnt fit us
What is wrong is identity theft: Presuming to be adopted when the Jewish People have not consented to do so.

please giv me your rational how identity theft is morally acceptable.
This almost sound like it was written by a non believing Jew Ger:sigh: Do we need MAN to tell us who our Father is? Do we need a Man to make us acceptable to God and his Son...I thought Yeshua/Jesus did that, he made us acceptable to the Father thru His death and we remain grafted in thru obedience, its not a matter of having the other branches accepting us its a matter of God accepting us, you know that right? I am confused by what I hear here:scratch:
vis: the first followers WERE Jews. The was BEFORE Cornelius. You can't assume that once Cornelius and other gentiles became believers that Jews considered them Jews! They just did NOT! It's absurd at face value. The Jewish believers continued to practice Judaism. The gentile believers were INSTRUCTED NOT TO.

Now, please go back and answer my question. How can identity theft be morally justified?Thats not a Messianic Teaching Ger , not in the least

I am concerned:sigh:

[GerTzedek]

Messianic is a mix of Believing Gentiles and Believing Jews all walking together under the Messiah and under Torah(the parts that are doable today)....we cant have a divided house when scripture says other wise....it looks like the peeps here also agree so I cant add it into our FSRs it doesnt fit usThe name of the undivided house, where the believers of Israel and the Nations meet, is called EKKLESIA, not Israel. THAT is MJ teaching. THAT is EVERYONE'S teaching.


This almost sound like it was written by a non believing Jew Ger:sigh:

I know you mean that as an insult. But considering how steeped you are in Christian thinking, and considering that MJ is a Judaism, it is something I would EXPECT you to say. You basically don't get it. You want MJ to be another Christian church. You don't WANT Jews to be Jews. You want them to assimilate and be nice gentile Christians like you, adopting ALL of your theology. It isn't going to happen. They reject it.

I look forward to the day when half of your statement will be true.


Do we need MAN to tell us who our Father is? Do we need a Man to make us acceptable to God and his Son...I thought Yeshua/Jesus did that, he made us acceptable to the Father thru His death and we remain grafted in thru obedience, its not a matter of having the other branches accepting us its a matter of God accepting us, you know that right? I am confused by what I hear here:scratch:

This is NOT a matter of who our Father is. This is not a matter of being acceptable to God. This is not a matter about being grafted. You are setting up straw men to shoot down. It may be fun, easy target practice, and it makes you feel really good. But it accomplishes nothing. Try arguing against what I'm actually saying, instead of making stuff up.

You think you are concerned? I am concerned. You are supporting a doctrine that leads to the deaths of Jews. I think I have a lot bigger reason to be concerned than you. I think about the ashes of six million, and think "never again, never never never ever ever ever EVER again." I will never budge on this. I'll never give an inch. I will fight it HERE where it begins.

So any time you want to offer your rationale for identity theft, the world is waiting.

[mpossoff]

The reason Ger addressed this to me was to explain how she could add supersessionism as gentiles trying to be known as apart of Israel when they are not , she believes(and please correct me if I got it wrong ok) that as part of our constitution and FSRs, we should say that subjects addressing Gentile Believers being part of Israel should be banned as Supersessionism ....And I disagreed with that, so she set up this thread to help me understand what she ment....I still disagree and think addressing Gentile Believers AS PART of Israel is good and proper and well Messianc:thumbsup:

Messianic is a mix of Believing Gentiles and Believing Jews all walking together under the Messiah and under Torah(the parts that are doable today)....we cant have a divided house when scripture says other wise....it looks like the peeps here also agree so I cant add it into our FSRs it doesnt fit us
This almost sound like it was written by a non believing Jew Ger:sigh: Do we need MAN to tell us who our Father is? Do we need a Man to make us acceptable to God and his Son...I thought Yeshua/Jesus did that, he made us acceptable to the Father thru His death and we remain grafted in thru obedience, its not a matter of having the other branches accepting us its a matter of God accepting us, you know that right? I am confused by what I hear here:scratch:
Thats not a Messianic Teaching Ger , not in the least

I am concerned:sigh:

I agree Tish.

It seems that some people don't and can't accept the Apostolic scriptures concerning this. That this was the main battle in the Apostolic scriptures.

This is the Mystery of the Gospel that Paul speaks about. Inclusion in Israel is not the result of choosing to follow the Noach-ide laws or to go to synagogue or to convert to a sect of mainstream Judaism. These are all ways certain people have chosen to define other people in relation to themselves. Rather, God makes the covenant, takes away sins, irrevocably calls, and grafts in. In Messiah Yeshua, the status of the Gentile as a full participant in Israel is not predicated upon any tractate of the Talmud or other halach-ic ruling. No, the Gentile's position was bought with the blood of Messiah himself!

And as we can see in this thread that it is indeed a Mystery that people of mainstrean Judaism's can't accept?

Marc

[Tishri1]

I know you mean that as an insult. But considering how steeped you are in Christian thinking, and considering that MJ is a Judaism, it is something I would EXPECT you to say. You basically don't get it. You want MJ to be another Christian church. You don't WANT Jews to be Jews. You want them to assimilate and be nice gentile Christians like you, adopting ALL of your theology. It isn't going to happen. They reject it.

I look forward to the day when half of your statement will be true. Ah Ger you dont know me if you say that and your not listening to everyone else here either I have no idea why you dont accept Messianic Gentiles as belonging to Isael but that will have to be something you work out between you and God ...WE DO and as you can see I was right in that the MJs here dont want that as part of supersessionism it wouldnt be right


This is NOT a matter of who our Father is. This is not a matter of being acceptable to God. This is not a matter about being grafted. You are setting up straw men to shoot down. It may be fun, easy target practice, and it makes you feel really good. But it accomplishes nothing. Try arguing against what I'm actually saying, instead of making stuff up.

You think you are concerned? I am concerned. You are supporting a doctrine that leads to the deaths of Jews. I think I have a lot bigger reason to be concerned than you. I think about the ashes of six million, and think "never again, never never never ever ever ever EVER again." I will never budge on this. I'll never give an inch. I will fight it HERE where it begins.

So any time you want to offer your rationale for identity theft, the world is waiting.ok so now you are doing what you accuse me of is that really fair to actually build a straw man of your own here, now?, BTW I disagree my was anything like this, my doctrine leading to Jews death ,:scratch:thats crazy making....:swoon:

when there is clear disagreement within the community we need to have a vote so I will put up a poll ok(only voting members can vote... those who have been here 3 months posting regularly and you must have a Torah scroll, Menorah, star of David, or be a Jewish Christian Icon holder or MJ Christian Icon holder or on our list- you all know who you are:thumbsup:)

[mpossoff]

Ger do you understand that 'The Way' was a sect in the Apostolic scriptures?

Also do you understand the main battle between 'The Way' and the mainstream sects of Judaism of that day?

Do you understand the Mystery of the Gospel? Inclusion in Israel is not the result of choosing to follow the Noach-ide laws or to go to synagogue or to convert to a sect of mainstream Judaism. These are all ways certain people have chosen to define other people in relation to themselves. Rather, God makes the covenant, takes away sins, irrevocably calls, and grafts in. In Messiah Yeshua, the status of the Gentile as a full participant in Israel is not predicated upon any tractate of the Talmud or other halach-ic ruling. No, the Gentile's position was bought with the blood of Messiah himself!

You see if you read the Apostolic scriptures you will see that what we are debating here on this forum was battled and debated in that day.

What is it? Is it mainstream orthodox Judaism that believes in Yeshua?

Or is it based on scripture in both the TaNaK and Apostolic scriptures which includes Gentiles?

Paul talked about this in some of his Epistles. About a false Gospel.

What is the false Gospel Paul was referring too?

Marc

[visionary]

First we need to understand the importance of Israel, and what it is talking about when Israel is mentioned.

Israel, since 1948, is back on the picture as real physical presence as a nation. Before that time, the christian faith taught a spiritual application to all the prophectic meanings behind the term to the church. Which I think we can all agree, that isn't quite right... Because God brought Israel back in our generation.

So that leaves us with revisiting all the new testament verses that talk of Israel. One of the most puzzling is..
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: And so the speculations go trying to figure out who are not Israel and which are. Paul talked about the prophectic application Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: which seems to contradict...Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Which has lead some to speculate further that Israel has a spiritual application in fulfillment and thus gentile believers can be a part of this. They want to be a part.. Galations 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. So with that there was a new understanding that emerged...the commonwealth of Israel. Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: and of course let us not forget where this whole discussion stemmed from... Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Why that is so important... Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Which is at the heart of every believer... Lord please write on my heart that I may be one of your people.

[GerTzedek]

You see if you read the Apostolic scriptures you will see that what we are debating here on this forum was battled and debated in that day.
What is it? Is it mainstream orthodox Judaism that believes in Yeshua?

Or is it based on scripture in both the TaNaK and Apostolic scriptures which includes Gentiles?

Neither. Your first option wasn't there. While the apostles practicied mainstream Judaism in addition to their Yeshua belief, the overwhelming majoritiy of mainstream Jews did not believe in Yeshua.

The second option you gave, which implies (correct me if I am mistaken) one standard for both jews and gentiles) also did not exist.

Paul talked about this in some of his Epistles. About a false Gospel.

What is the false Gospel Paul was referring too?
He was referrring to gnosticism.

[GerTzedek]

DO YOU REALIZE THAT BOTH OPTIONS IN THIS POLL INCLUDE THE WORDS "PART OF"

Talk about stacking the deck. Now you are making me angry.

[mpossoff]

Neither. Your first option wasn't there. While the apostles practicied mainstream Judaism in addition to their Yeshua belief, the overwhelming majoritiy of mainstream Jews did not believe in Yeshua.

The second option you gave, which implies (correct me if I am mistaken) one standard for both jews and gentiles) also did not exist.


He was referrring to gnosticism.

Ger have you read the Apostolic scriptures?

First what did the mainstream Judaism's of that day say how Gentiles would be included? 'The Way' because of Yeshua was different.

You must read the Apostolic scriptures in context.

Again Ger what is the Mystery of the Gospel? You seem to be fighting against it? Why maybe because it's really a Mystery? How Gentiles are included. Certaintly is a mystery to me.

Marc

[ContraMundum]

Here is a list of the countries of the Commonwealth (http://www.commonwealthfoundation.com/about/countries/)

Here is a popular activity (http://www.thecgf.com/)

This is also important (http://www.dfat.gov.au/intorgs/commonwealth/aus_comm_2.html)

Hope that helps.

[Steve Petersen]

The crux of the problem here is a clash between Jewish halakah and interpretations of Paul regarding the status of Gentiles.

Judaism has their definition of inclusion and they are entitled to it. Messianics (Jews or Gentiles) have no business trying to pry the door of the synagogue open.

That said, those in the Messianic circles are certainly entitled to BELIEVE they have been grafted in to Israel. The writings of Paul are pretty clear about inclusion (for those who give Paul any weight); however this must be viewed in a spiritual sense, at least until Messiah returns and straightens everyone out.

[visionary]

The crux of the problem here is a clash between Jewish halakah and interpretations of Paul regarding the status of Gentiles.

Judaism has their definition of inclusion and they are entitled to it. Messianics (Jews or Gentiles) have no business trying to pry the door of the synagogue open.

That said, those in the Messianic circles are certainly entitled to BELIEVE they have been grafted in to Israel. The writings of Paul are pretty clear about inclusion (for those who give Paul any weight); however this must be viewed in a spiritual sense, at least until Messiah returns and straightens everyone out.Best thing I have heard all day...

[Bananna]

Okay I didn't like either statement, I just chose the "no" because I don't believe we should gag people on this issue.

Bananna

[ContraMundum]

.....until Messiah returns and straightens everyone out.

Yep.

Even if the Messiah wasn't Jesus this event would still be the event to end disputes.

[A_Pioneer]

I'll bet you a nickel against a hole in a donut, that no one was ever reprimanded for exclaiming "Jesus Christ!" until way after Yeshua was at the right hand of the Father.

What do you think?

Shalom

[Tishri1]

DO YOU REALIZE THAT BOTH OPTIONS IN THIS POLL INCLUDE THE WORDS "PART OF"

Talk about stacking the deck. Now you are making me angry.

exuse me I used the word part of because that is how YOU wanted it worded in your FSR...

yes answer says Gentile MJs cannot say they are part of Israelbecause YOU say that supersessionism is the teaching that MJ Gentiles are apart of Israel and you want to ban that kind of teaching

no answer isGentiles MJs are part of Israel those people reject your FSR , they want the freedom to allow MJ gentiles to teach and believe they are INCLUDED and are apart of Israel...NOT THAT THEY REPLACE but that they are grafted in......

I didnt stack the deck I just made a poll so everyone could choose and we can be done with all these reports that have no reason to be reported


When Yeshua comes back for Israel the Jews who dont accept Him or Us right now will have their arms open wide.....Its not about the will of the people , its the will of God...

If people want to come to our area and say they are APART OF Israel we shouldnt silence them, if they say they replace Israel then yes I can see tha.t but even in the MJ debate forum they should be allowed to debate that with us in a friendly way, IMO

[mpossoff]

Ger you still haven't answered my question.

What is the Mystery of the Gospel?

Marc

[nasa1]

Ger wrote to Tishri:"You are supporting a doctrine that leads to the deaths of Jews. I think I have a lot bigger reason to be concerned than you. I think about the ashes of six million, and think "never again, never never never ever ever ever EVER again." I will never budge on this. I'll never give an inch. I will fight it HERE where it begins.

So any time you want to offer your rationale for identity theft, the world is waiting."





Are you crazy? I'm sorry, but Ger you don't make any sense. The Holocaust has nothing to do with gentiles being grafted into the House of Israel, not replacing them, but becoming a part of them. None whatsoever!

What? Do you think the writings of Luther, the ones Hilter used as justification to get rid of the Jews, contained teachings that the church had joined Israel?

Ger I would re-think your statement.

nasa

[stranger]

The poll is flawed because the author does not understand the scriptures ... these are the wrong questions... they pertain only to irrelevant politics of religion, not to what the scriptures of God say about Israel...

thus one cannot vote in this poll if one understands the truth offered by God ... far more discussion of the scripture is required then, and then one would see that it is NOT a matter of polling or democracy, but of the word of God.... this simply is not a matter for opinions and consequent arbitrary division of groups in ignorance ... God is about love not arbitrary division ... and yes He does divide off the 144,000 saints of this world to be firstfruits, but that is no excuse for men to invent their own arbitrary divisions as sinners , putting up walls whch god does not recognise at all...

poll declined, it ain't valid by scripture ...

[nasa1]

But stranger, aren't we bringing the walls down when we say that believing Gentiles are now a part of Israel?

Like I said before, Gentiles have always been welcomed into the House of Israel.

So for us to say that believing Gentiles are a part of the house of Israel is nothing new, nor wrong.


If the scriptures say that Gentiles are no longer foreigners and are a part of the commonwealth of Israel, then we should accept that.


Even further, the book of Romans says that unbelieving Jewish branches were broken off and believing Gentiles grafted into their place!

nasa

[stranger]

But stranger, aren't we bringing the walls down when we say that believing Gentiles are now a part of Israel?


You are indeed bringing divisions down, but they are divisions that god has made for His plan ... one is simply deluding oneself to ignore the division the Mesisah makes now , simply on the basis that the walls will not exist later in the kingdom of God ...

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Thus the challenge is to understand scripture, why there must be division now and what scripture says that division is, not what one wishes it were...

The division in scripture by which Jesus/Y'shua takes the 144,000 saints is the seal of God on His few saints taken first , in this earth [Rev 7:3-4] :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

the seal of a saint then is that he ceases to sin ... but note that this division of men into sinners and saints ,by God, is NOT the same one as employed in mankind's religious beliefs in this world... religious tradition does not agree with God on this one, one of them is wrong and it ain't God...

Thus the Messiah will take no sinners at his return, just as he has said :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them[B], I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.This division only exists because God requires to set up His kings and priests perfected at the beginning of His kingdom... so they have to be firts, it is not exclusive of the salvation of others, just the first necessary step, but desperately poorly understood in religion ... in fact it is incredibly sensible to perfect the priests and kings first and set them ready at the beginning, but it is a message that goes down poorly with the sinners who are priests and kings in this earth... so religion does not acknowledge God's truth in scripture . it is not 'convenient' to do sso since it takes away the authority presumed by the divided churches and the authority of sovereigns of this earth...

Nevertheless it is God's will as stated that will be established as reality, not the propaganda of sinners as either kings or 'priests' of this earth ...

Thus God has set the walls around His 144,000 saints, the few who find the narrow strait way now ... there is little point in trying to knock down that divisioon ... they are all of Israel but many are not Jews , never accepted Judaism ... they are not the whole of Israel either, not by any means... their only distinction is that they know all truth from God [not taught from men that are sinners] and have given up sinning in this life.... that is the seal, the foundation of God laid in them ... they are the beginning, not the end of perfection of love following the Messiah's perfection of love, the way he showed men , that the gentiles and the rest of Israel will follow after the second resurrection ...

The 'commonwealth ' of all nations following israel as saints, is in the righteous new earth, not in this earth, thus there is a distiction now, a very real scriptural one, but it is not recognised by teh world, nor even by most religion of men, of sinners !

Like I said before, Gentiles have always been welcomed into the House of Israel.

That Jews welcome 'strangers' is integral to the love behind their religion , the love which is God... and that indeed is how the Jews will learn from the House of Israel , who have become strangers, living as gentiles amongst gentiles for three millenia now and never practising Judaism, but worshipping other gods until the good news of the Messiah reaches them and God baptises them with his truth ,ready to begin the tral of faith in love, the 'baptismm of fire' , which perfects the love of saints during life

Do not themistake the nation of Israel as seen today , almost exclusively Jews , with the House nof Israel, a nation that ceased to be a people 3 millenia ago, who served other gods, never accepted Judaism, did not mostly become Jews after captivity and release, despite losing their lands and needing a home ... God scattered them STILL believing in other gods, still not accepting Judaism :-

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and[U]there thou shalt serve other gods, ... [i.e. [B]not Judaism!, these are Israelites who are NOT Jews!]

So for us to say that believing Gentiles are a part of the house of Israel is nothing new, nor wrong.

Strictly speaking the House of Israel are not gentiles, they are simply non-Jewish Israelites that have been living as gentiles for three millenia now ... so that even the Jews have forgotten about them and they likely do not know themselves that they are not gentiles

As to whether men are 'believing' or not, it depends very much on WHAT they believe and whether they DO what they say they believe... the fact of scripture is that only the saints actually DO what the Messiah commanded, so only the saints follow the messiah as lord in fact... sinners simply by sinning disobey the Messiah, so no matter what they say, they do not follow him as lord , they do not obey him as one does a lord... thus many of religion are deceived in thsi world by sinners who name themselves priests whilst they are but sinners... they may fool themselves and many others, but they cannot fool God, the scripture is clear about who will be priests of God and they ahve a SEAL in departing from sin, they were sinners, but become saints before death,perfecting love in this life....

If the scriptures say that Gentiles are no longer foreigners and are a part of the commonwealth of Israel, then we should accept that.

The Messiah came to save all sinners, the mass of the gentiles will be saved, he says so [Rev 7:9-10], but AFTER the few, not at the first resuerrection at teh return of the messiah ... sinners cannot even live again until the second resurrection... that is how sinners enter the new earth, only saints enter it through translation first to spirit [to join the immortal priesthood of perfected priests, the order of Melchizedek, not any human order of sinner priests] Thus Israel will rule and minister in teh enw earth in a commonwealth with the gentiles , but there is no point in conflating that with what happens in this earth... the gentiles who are truly gentiles [not the House of Israel] are all saved afterward , along with most of the Jews and most of the House of Israel ... very few, a tiny remnant only, are firstfruit saints of Israel, saved in this world ....

Even further, the book of Romans says that unbelieving Jewish branches were broken off and believing Gentiles grafted into their place!

but read futher , the broken off branches can be grafted back in and take better than the wild ones :-

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
....
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?It makes sense to read the whole story Paul is espousing from the OT ... reading part of it simply misses the point ... which is that the new covenant is with only the Jews and the House of Israel cos' it SAYS SO - Heb 8:8-12 - that they were rejected , but those whose fathers were rejected for breaking the old covenant are now UNCONDITIONALLY accepted and forgiven their sins by grace ...

but this new covenant is only with the two kingdoms of divided Israel, the House of Judah [Jews] and the lost sheep of the House of Israel [living as gentiles amongst gentiles now for some 3 millenia]

So how are the gentiles forgiven their sins?

Quite simply the wages of sin are paid in death :-

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Thus the gentiles cannot be saved in this life , they are unperfected in love by the time of death, like much of Israel too... they are not ready for translation to spirit, but must perfect their love in the new earth righteous kingdom of God ... God then does not impart all truth to more than the few in this life, there is no need to do so ... but he does promise that He will baptise all flesh [Joel 2:28] ... we know that He cannot do so until all flesh is alive again at the second resurrection, and there would be no point in doing so after judgment day... so we know most men are saved in the new earth ,by following the same way of Jesus and the saints, but much later, in the new earth , after death...

It is then a commonplace mistake to conflate the redemption of the few who find the narrow strait way in this earth with the redemption of the many in the new earth kingdom, but in fact the few are saved by grace, but the many are judged by works in the new earth, not grace :-

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Thus one must keep to the division of men set by \God, the distinction is His very SEAL and it is between saints and sinners, no other division ... neither is it coincidence that all the saints of this earth are descendants of Jacob, but they are not all Jews, do not all follow Judaism...

[Tishri1]

Stranger you need to read our wiki and see the part about teaching and debaiting....you need to be a member of MJ to do that in this forum hun....thats why some of your posts were moved to debate for you....PM me ok?:wave:

[nasa1]

Stranger, what denomination do you belong to?

Also, your post was based on a "half-scripture" -

"Do you think I have come to bring peace on earth; no, I tell you, division. "



Now, who did Jesus say the divisions are against? They are in the believers own personal family. You took that scripture and mis-used it by only quoting half of it to preach your view.

NASA

[stranger]

Stranger, what denomination do you belong to?


God recognises no 'denominations' in scripture , only saints who know all his truth [John 16:13] and agree as one with Him in all the scripture ... and sinners who disagree just like all religions and denominations of men [scripture shows if taken as a whole, as it must be to be from God, that all denominations are false, not of God's one truth] .. Thus men who are not saints founded the bdenominations on private interpretations of scripture which are necessarily invalid since God's truth is not divided like religion is ...

Also, your post was based on a "half-scripture" -

"Do you think I have come to bring peace on earth; no, I tell you, division. "

Now, who did Jesus say the divisions are against? They are in the believers own personal family. You took that scripture and mis-used it by only quoting half of it to preach your view.I am not preaching , nor do I even have a set view of scripture to preach... nor do i recognise any church of sinners, but only the congregation of God made up solely of saints [sinners who have turned to love and so sin no more]

The division of God will indeed separate families, but its seal of division is sainthood, ceasing to sin, giving up iniquity completely :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Thus you need to read ALL the scripture to understand it truly, and your comment only highlights athat some in even the same family can be saints whilst the rest remain sinners to death...

[stranger]

Stranger you need to read our wiki and see the part about teaching and debaiting....you need to be a member of MJ to do that in this forum hun....thats why some of your posts were moved to debate for you....PM me ok?:wave:

Ok, I have PMed you...

But you cannot seriously be intending to make some rule objecting directly or indirectly to using scripture ,as it is written, in discussion ?????

Why would you allow polls without pernmitting discussion of their validity based on scripture as written either ????

If you want to ban discussion altogether, no matter ho friendly and how bound to scripture, then there is no place for polls here either, else they are not free polls , but only of those whose hands are tied behind their backs befotre they are allowed to vote ... you simply have to alow discussion of polls on basis of scripture, else you just promote misunderstanding by presentation of false dichotomies for popular voting... which does one choose, devil or deep blue... do you see?

[visionary]

stranger... the corner has been reserved for like minds... of this theology... Messianic Jewish followers of Jesus tenderly use His Hebrew name -- Yeshua (which means "salvation") -- and are committed to preserving their Jewish identity, believing it to be perfectly compatible with their newfound faith. They celebrate the Jewish feasts, meet on the Sabbath, teach from the Torah, celebrate Bar Mitzvah's and engage in other Jewish customs. Messianic synagogues are formed by Jewish and Gentile members who worship together and who recognize the Messiahship of Yeshua and the Jewish foundation of His message.

Therefore based upon our understanding so far... your presentation is up for debate. Fellowship does not teach or preach.

Since objections have been raise, it turns into debate and needs to be moved to our debate section.

[stranger]

stranger... the corner has been reserved for like minds... of this theology... Messianic Jewish followers of Jesus tenderly use His Hebrew name -- Yeshua (which means "salvation") -- and are committed to preserving their Jewish identity, believing it to be perfectly compatible with their newfound faith. They celebrate the Jewish feasts, meet on the Sabbath, teach from the Torah, celebrate Bar Mitzvah's and engage in other Jewish customs. Messianic synagogues are formed by Jewish and Gentile members who worship together and who recognize the Messiahship of Yeshua and the Jewish foundation of His message.

Therefore based upon our understanding so far... your presentation is up for debate. Fellowship does not teach or preach.

Since objections have been raise, it turns into debate and needs to be moved to our debate section.

What you do makes no sense at all, but i cannot stop you by simply pointing out the scripture, so I have no choice in this and you ignore what i have said and what the sr=cripture says... It is out of my hands because sinners give you power over where I think my words fit the rules .., what I think signifeies nothing despite you act conytrary to the scripture as I have shown you carefully ...

None of these things you find so significant has any relevance in the scripture that you can demonstrate so wh do you use them like weapons to dsirupt communications which are not preaching [since I have nothing to say without scripture , no religious creed, no church except the saints of God - ... I have nothing to preach and am no teacher ... I simply want to discuss the scripture in teh friendliest possible way... that is what thuis site is for... I am not interested in debate because it sets people against each other and I want to co-operate in finding the truth from scripture, not have a war about who is right... God is right, we could do well to remember that, so what point if a man 'proves' he is right but has abused the scripture in hs zeal to be right... all i want is totally communal discussion of what is the truth according to teh scripture of God, all of it... that is what Jesus did in the synagogues , it is what the sauints did amongst the gentiles , why ca we not do it here instead of putting up arbitrary ad hoc walls on the vbasis of distinctions whic the scripture does not make... ????? ... one cannot love by hiding away in an enclave , love is for giving to all else it dies ... do not kill it in yourself and others with making up walls which God never set in place... respect his scripture and allow people to fellowship in friendly discussion of it ... that is what fellowship is for ,getting closer as a group to God by means of love ... hide away in a corner and you die the ugly death of a sinner committed to sin who will not even try to love his neighbour, death by xenophobia as with so many on this site... fight this temptation to cease to love all men and hide away from scripture ...do not become part of their madness of ignoring God's words and calling it fellowship because they agree to ignore some words that speak against what they chose to believe before understanding it as a whole... God is NOT divided, do not chop up His words with making non-scriptural divisions ...

If someone does not understand then that does not make it a debate, it is still a discussion so long as both are seeking one truth of God not to impose their own beliefs on the other ,but to find the One truth from God;s word... thus you conclusion is wrong, this bhas never been debate, debate is only for those who think they are right and everyone who disagrees is wrong... it is thus useless since none who deabte ever changes to god's truth , they just bend scripture if they can and ignore it if they can't ... discussion is between equlas who respect each other and in the case here those who respect god's truth more than their private curret beliefs as sinners... the problem only appears when men make up their minds before understanding the scripture as a whole as one truth... but clearly one cannot truly say one believes the scripture until one understanbds it as a single truth ... thus there is room for discussion , but debate is a waste of everyone's time since people try to 'win' debates, but everyone wins from discussion, no-one loses a discussion :-

Proverbs 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

Memn are divided in belief with any group one foolishly put a wall around, do not stop them discussing in friendly manner their differeneces by co-operation, why set them at each other's throats in debate and lose the thruth by men's ego for their pet private beliefs ... it does no good to debate because men lie even to themselves when challenged, it becomes like a war of egos, not a seeking for God's truth...

[nasa1]

Man, what an ego!

[stranger]

Man, what an ego!

Hmmm. all you can say is abuse ????

I have said nothing about myself [except in answer to foolish judgments which have no place ever been made here, as indeed you ad homonem is not allowed either, so where is there any ego, the truth of scripture is not my truth, it is from God , why do you object to it being discussed openly ????

I have simply discussed the scripture and would point out that we are not here to discuss each other ... so you are both wrong and breaking the rules by discussing others , not the topic ... please try to be loving and keep to discussion in fellowship ... a civil request backed by the rules here.... and by God's requirement of love ...

[GerTzedek]

AGAIN, I will not participate in this poll. It is an invalid poll, as it connects "grafted" with being part of Israel. The Messainic Jewish position according to UMJC and MJAA is that is that gentiles are grafted to Israel but are not Israel nor part of Israel, but part of the commonwealth of Israel.

So you will take your poll, and pretend that you have determined something, when in truth, you have decided NOTHING AT ALL, except that you are going to tolerate this form of supersessionism.

Because THAT is what THIS wording is: "grafted means you are part of Israel." <-- supersessionist interpretation

Enjoy associating yourselves with the Holocaust and Pogroms. I am throwing up. I shake the dust from my feet.

[Steve Petersen]

AGAIN, I will not participate in this poll. It is an invalid poll, as it connects "grafted" with being part of Israel. The Messainic Jewish position according to UMJC and MJAA is that is that gentiles are grafted to Israel but are not Israel nor part of Israel, but part of the commonwealth of Israel.

So you will take your poll, and pretend that you have determined something, when in truth, you have decided NOTHING AT ALL, except that you are going to tolerate this form of supersessionism.

Because THAT is what THIS wording is: "grafted means you are part of Israel." <-- supersessionist interpretation

Enjoy associating yourselves with the Holocaust and Pogroms. I am throwing up. I shake the dust from my feet.

Don't let it get to you. Share your opinion not your attitude. There is enough of that on this forum already. ;)

[mpossoff]

AGAIN, I will not participate in this poll. It is an invalid poll, as it connects "grafted" with being part of Israel. The Messainic Jewish position according to UMJC and MJAA is that is that gentiles are grafted to Israel but are not Israel nor part of Israel, but part of the commonwealth of Israel.

So you will take your poll, and pretend that you have determined something, when in truth, you have decided NOTHING AT ALL, except that you are going to tolerate this form of supersessionism.

Because THAT is what THIS wording is: "grafted means you are part of Israel." <-- supersessionist interpretation

Enjoy associating yourselves with the Holocaust and Pogroms. I am throwing up. I shake the dust from my feet.

Ger what is exactly being grafted into Israel but are not Israel?

How does this relate to the commonwealth?

Marc

[GerTzedek]

Ger what is exactly being grafted into Israel but are not Israel?

How does this relate to the commonwealth?

Marc
It is just that. How does it need further explanation? A Peach branch grafted onto a plum root remains a peach branch. A wild olive branch grafted onto a real olive root will still bear wild olives, not olives -- it doesn't become an olive branch. It remains a wild olive branch IN THE MIDST of the olive branches, gaining its nutrition from the olive root. A Canadian in the British commonwealth is still Canadian, and not British. A gentile in the commonwealth of Israel is still of the nations, and not of Israel.

To be of Israel is to be a Jew. The first word refers to the People, the second to the individual within the People. If one is not born a Jew or adopted into the People through conversion, then one has no right to claim to be Israel.

Grafted to Israel? Yes.
Part of the commonwealth of Israel Yes.
But Israel? No.

[nasa1]

AGAIN, I will not participate in this poll. It is an invalid poll, as it connects "grafted" with being part of Israel. The Messainic Jewish position according to UMJC and MJAA is that is that gentiles are grafted to Israel but are not Israel nor part of Israel, but part of the commonwealth of Israel.

So you will take your poll, and pretend that you have determined something, when in truth, you have decided NOTHING AT ALL, except that you are going to tolerate this form of supersessionism.

Because THAT is what THIS wording is: "grafted means you are part of Israel." <-- supersessionist interpretation

Enjoy associating yourselves with the Holocaust and Pogroms. I am throwing up. I shake the dust from my feet.



You are crazy if you think the teaching of grafted in gentiles is in anyway associated with the Holocaust or Pograms! Man, someone brainwashed you good!

NASA

[nasa1]

Hmmm. all you can say is abuse ????

I have said nothing about myself [except in answer to foolish judgments which have no place ever been made here, as indeed you ad homonem is not allowed either, so where is there any ego, the truth of scripture is not my truth, it is from God , why do you object to it being discussed openly ????

I have simply discussed the scripture and would point out that we are not here to discuss each other ... so you are both wrong and breaking the rules by discussing others , not the topic ... please try to be loving and keep to discussion in fellowship ... a civil request backed by the rules here.... and by God's requirement of love ...



You keep saying we're wrong, wrong, wrong.

Ever have a humble heart and admit, "Ok, I may be wrong?"



NASA

[stranger]

You keep saying we're wrong, wrong, wrong.

Ever have a humble heart and admit, "Ok, I may be wrong?"

NASA

It's not me that says you are mistaken, its the scripture of God.... don't attack the messenger, just cos' you don't like what scripture says...

I get things wrong all the time , like most folks... the scripture doesn't ...

Here's an example for Gert...

To be of Israel is to be a Jew.Now all VISIBLE Israel are Jews and all Jews keep Judaism of some sort , but Israel was divided millenia ago ... the Jewish part, the House of Judah kept Judaism , the House of Israel followed pagan gods ... they are distinct in religion , it sepated and still separates them .... thus many, indeed most, of Israel never were Jews, never accepted Judaism ...

Here's the scriptural proof , and it shows the mistakem, not form me, from God :-

Deuteronomy 28:36 The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.
....
Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have
known, even wood and stone.

Now what is wrong with accepting what God has had written????

Stiop attackingme, I didn't write it, it ain't my fault that you never read what God said ... you could have doen, you just didn't trouble yourself ... so i saved you much time by pointing it out and all you can do instaed of thanking me for showing you his truth is attack me... its insane... please stop it ... it ain't ALLOWED HERE, we're all friends looking for God's truth, not fighting those who show it to us ...

Now just apply this simple rule to your posts, DO NOT DISCUSS THE PERSON, DISCUSS THE TOPIC ...

[visionary]

OK... Both Nasa1 and stranger, may I remind you that you are the guests and as guests I expect you both to behave as such. You have come to this corner and started an argument that should be out in general theology. If it continues this portion of the thread will be sent out.

[GerTzedek]

Nasa:

I'm wrong a lot. I also sin. I'm an extremely fallable person with unclean hands, grateful to HaShem for His mercy and grace. It is a good thing that salvation is not based on intellectual correctness. I second guess myself all the time. I think in terms of probability... This is PROBABLY right....

However, there are times when we can't afford to second guess. When bad doctrine leads to evil actions -- well, that is one of those times. Supersessionism is the manure in the soil that enabled AntiSemitism to grow, directly leading to the expulsions of Jews and persecutions of the Conversos during the Inquistion, to the Pogroms, and of course, to the Shoah. The evidence is clear enough. When people DIE, it is not a time for thinking, "Well there is a small chance I may be wrong..." When there is smoke and ashes and wailing one does not have the luxery to equivocate.

And so I will not back down on this, not one inch. I will tolerate NO FORM of Supersessionism. NONE.

Enough said.

[mpossoff]

Nasa:

I'm wrong a lot. I also sin. I'm an extremely fallable person with unclean hands, grateful to HaShem for His mercy and grace. It is a good thing that salvation is not based on intellectual correctness. I second guess myself all the time. I think in terms of probability... This is PROBABLY right....

However, there are times when we can't afford to second guess. When bad doctrine leads to evil actions -- well, that is one of those times. Supersessionism is the manure in the soil that enabled AntiSemitism to grow, directly leading to the expulsions of Jews and persecutions of the Conversos during the Inquistion, to the Pogroms, and of course, to the Shoah. The evidence is clear enough. When people DIE, it is not a time for thinking, "Well there is a small chance I may be wrong..." When there is smoke and ashes and wailing one does not have the luxery to equivocate.

And so I will not back down on this, not one inch. I will tolerate NO FORM of Supersessionism. NONE.

Enough said.

Ger whether right or wrong IMHO your opposition are not supercessionists.

To me they are not saying that Israel was replaced by the 'Church'.

Marc

[GerTzedek]

Ger whether right or wrong IMHO your opposition are not supercessionists.

To me they are not saying that Israel was replaced by the 'Church'.

Marc
Marc:

Any stealing of the name of Isreal is a form of supersessionism, because it pretentiously assumes the right to usurp the title. There is NO right to usurp the title. G-d gave the name of Israel to Jacob, not to gentile believers in Yeshua. For gentile believers to take what is not theirs to have is WRONG. It is digusting for a believer to say to the Jews, "Oh.. well... you know... we realize it is highly insulting to you that we take your name, but WEEEEEEEE know better than you. WEEEEEEE are more enlightened than you. WEEEEEEEEE are blah blah blahbetty blah better than you cuz we have Jesus and you don't. And sooooooooo it's okay that despite your objections, we call ourselves Israel."

Yeah... right...

BARF

[Steve Petersen]

Nasa:

I'm wrong a lot. I also sin. I'm an extremely fallable person with unclean hands, grateful to HaShem for His mercy and grace. It is a good thing that salvation is not based on intellectual correctness. I second guess myself all the time. I think in terms of probability... This is PROBABLY right....

However, there are times when we can't afford to second guess. When bad doctrine leads to evil actions -- well, that is one of those times. Supersessionism is the manure in the soil that enabled AntiSemitism to grow, directly leading to the expulsions of Jews and persecutions of the Conversos during the Inquistion, to the Pogroms, and of course, to the Shoah. The evidence is clear enough. When people DIE, it is not a time for thinking, "Well there is a small chance I may be wrong..." When there is smoke and ashes and wailing one does not have the luxery to equivocate.

And so I will not back down on this, not one inch. I will tolerate NO FORM of Supersessionism. NONE.

Enough said.
I admire the sentiment and concur that supercessionism need to be refuted, but honestly, doesn't Paul come across as supersessionist at times?

[ContraMundum]

Commonwealth countries are generally good at Cricket- with the exception of Canada, naturally. Ay?

Obviously, to be part of the Commonwealth one needs a cricket team, with the exception of Canada.

Perhaps, in the light of this massive oversight of the authors of scripture, there will be no part in the true Commonwealth until both Jews and Gentiles can field a winning cricket team together.

Imagine that? Working together.

(I always thought that this was the real purpose of the Messiah's good news- tikkun olam, but then again, maybe I need to be more dogmatic about doctrine to fit into this debate)

[nasa1]

It's not me that says you are mistaken, its the scripture of God.... don't attack the messenger, just cos' you don't like what scripture says...

I get things wrong all the time , like most folks... the scripture doesn't ...

Here's an example for Gert...

Now all VISIBLE Israel are Jews and all Jews keep Judaism of some sort , but Israel was divided millenia ago ... the Jewish part, the House of Judah kept Judaism , the House of Israel followed pagan gods ... they are distinct in religion , it sepated and still separates them .... thus many, indeed most, of Israel never were Jews, never accepted Judaism ...

Here's the scriptural proof , and it shows the mistakem, not form me, from God :-

Deuteronomy 28:36 The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.
....
Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have
known, even wood and stone.

Now what is wrong with accepting what God has had written????

Stiop attackingme, I didn't write it, it ain't my fault that you never read what God said ... you could have doen, you just didn't trouble yourself ... so i saved you much time by pointing it out and all you can do instaed of thanking me for showing you his truth is attack me... its insane... please stop it ... it ain't ALLOWED HERE, we're all friends looking for God's truth, not fighting those who show it to us ...

Now just apply this simple rule to your posts, DO NOT DISCUSS THE PERSON, DISCUSS THE TOPIC ...



So, the House of Israel followed pagan gods, while the squeaky clean House of Judah followed the L-rd? Don't think so!!!!!



2nd Kings 21:10
The LORD said through his servants the prophets: 11 "Manasseh king of Judah has committed these detestable sins. He has done more evil than the Amorites who preceded him and has led Judah into sin with his idols. 12 Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: I am going to bring such disaster on Jerusalem and Judah that the ears of everyone who hears of it will tingle. 13 I will stretch out over Jerusalem the measuring line used against Samaria and the plumb line used against the house of Ahab. I will wipe out Jerusalem as one wipes a dish, wiping it and turning it upside down. 14 I will forsake the remnant of my inheritance and hand them over to their enemies. They will be looted and plundered by all their foes, 15 because they have done evil in my eyes and have provoked me to anger from the day their forefathers came out of Egypt until this day."

16 Moreover, Manasseh also shed so much innocent blood that he filled Jerusalem from end to end—besides the sin that he had caused Judah to commit, so that they did evil in the eyes of the LORD...Nevertheless, the LORD did not turn away from the heat of his fierce anger, which burned against Judah because of all that Manasseh had done to provoke him to anger. 27 So the LORD said, "I will remove Judah also from my presence as I removed Israel, and I will reject Jerusalem, the city I chose, and this temple, about which I said, 'There shall my Name be.' "




2nd Chronicles 24:24
Although the Aramean army had come with only a few men, the LORD delivered into their hands a much larger army. Because Judah had forsaken the LORD, the God of their fathers, judgment was executed on Joash.







Stranger, this is just a few of the many scriptures that depict Judah as being unfaithful. Your theory does not hold any water!
NASA

[visionary]

Nasa1, as long as you remain a guest, you must refrain from telling our other guests who is right and who is wrong. You are to fellowship and ask questions only.

[visionary]

Thread moved as per report. http://foru.ms/t6116444-the-messianic-forum-visionary-09-17-2007.html

[Bananna]

Thank you, this seems a sort of heated discussion.

Bananna

[stranger]

So, the House of Israel followed pagan gods, while the squeaky clean House of Judah followed the L-rd? Don't think so!!!!!

2nd Kings 21:10
The LORD said through his servants the prophets: 11 "Manasseh king of Judah has committed these detestable sins. He has done more evil than the Amorites who preceded him and has led Judah into sin with his idols. 12 Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: I am going to bring such disaster on Jerusalem and Judah that the ears of everyone who hears of it will tingle. 13 I will stretch out over Jerusalem the measuring line used against Samaria and the plumb line used against the house of Ahab. I will wipe out Jerusalem as one wipes a dish, wiping it and turning it upside down. 14 I will forsake the remnant of my inheritance and hand them over to their enemies. They will be looted and plundered by all their foes, 15 because they have done evil in my eyes and have provoked me to anger from the day their forefathers came out of Egypt until this day."

16 Moreover, Manasseh also shed so much innocent blood that he filled Jerusalem from end to end—besides the sin that he had caused Judah to commit, so that they did evil in the eyes of the LORD...Nevertheless, the LORD did not turn away from the heat of his fierce anger, which burned against Judah because of all that Manasseh had done to provoke him to anger. 27 So the LORD said, "I will remove Judah also from my presence as I removed Israel, and I will reject Jerusalem, the city I chose, and this temple, about which I said, 'There shall my Name be.' "

2nd Chronicles 24:24
Although the Aramean army had come with only a few men, the LORD delivered into their hands a much larger army. Because Judah had forsaken the LORD, the God of their fathers, judgment was executed on Joash.

Stranger, this is just a few of the many scriptures that depict Judah as being unfaithful. Your theory does not hold any water!
NASA

My friend, I have never said any such thing, and quite agree that The House of Judah is severely rejected by God for its not keeping the old covenant [Torah, Law] ... I have never once said anything whatsoever about some mythical "squeaky clean House of Judah", I know the scripture that details their rejection by God for covenant-breaking

But nevertheless God has put His name on BOTH Houses , and whilst He rejected them BOTH and scattered BOTH all over the world, albeit at different times , nevertheless then God has UNCONDITIONALLY forgiven their descendants even the sin they learned from the elders of Israel , and simply puts His law in heart and minds of a remnant 144,000 of Israel's descendannts under a NEW covenant with BOTH Houses Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:8-12

So those whose fathers broke the old covenant , of BOTH Houses , are also to be redeemed , but they died sinners , they cannot be part of the first resurrection of the just [those who have perfected their love in life by following the way of sinless life of the Messiah ...past sins being ignored by god under their new covenant, but the seal of God is to DEPART from sin, not to continue in it :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.These are words that a billion christians ignore, but the saints do not... but obviously most of Israel too died sinners, they cannot live again until after the second resurrection, yet all israel will be saved :-

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Again note that it is the descendants of Jacob who are saved first in the new earth , apparently because God will use them all as priests in the kingdom of God, so they need to be readied first :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The point though which tthis underlines is that the gentiles too are redeemed in the new earth after the second resurrection, something most christian sinners do not believe [because they learn from sinners, not from the scripture of saints]

[stranger]

Thank you, this seems a sort of heated discussion.

Bananna

Plase don't put labels on it like "heated discussion" ... there was no argument here, no "heat", just a misunderstanding that is easily resolved since we both agree that teh scripture is right and in fact both agreed beforehand as well on this point....

please do not label misunderstandings as "heat" else we cannot have any discussion, sinners are FULL of misunderstandings else they would be saints !

[nasa1]

Stranger, your doctrines are strange and make no sense at all. I would like to know what denomination you come FROM.

NASA

[stranger]

It is just that. How does it need further explanation? A Peach branch grafted onto a plum root remains a peach branch. A wild olive branch grafted onto a real olive root will still bear wild olives, not olives -- it doesn't become an olive branch. It remains a wild olive branch IN THE MIDST of the olive branches, gaining its nutrition from the olive root. A Canadian in the British commonwealth is still Canadian, and not British. A gentile in the commonwealth of Israel is still of the nations, and not of Israel.


This much is true. Paul underlines how tentative is the grafting of wild olive branches, how they can easily not continue to take, but the true braches, acn be grafted back in :-

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

To be of Israel is to be a Jew.

... to be truly a Jew is to be of Israel
...AND also Jews actually all believe in some variant of Judaism ... but many of Israel , according to moses own prophecy, are scattered amongst the nationms believein in other gods, thus not in Judaism...

Thus many are of Israel who are not believing in Judaism, are not Jews then according to no less an authority than Moses in the Torah :-

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

The name of the House of Judah persists on the Jews who are held togeteher as a people and a nation by Judaism, the name of the House of Israel, the Northern kingdom simly ceased, they did not cease to exist because God has promised the growth of Ephraim and Manasseh and made other promises to other tribes, and merely sifted them through the nations as if they were gentiles [for they have lived as gentiles for three millenia now, serving pagan gods of whatever nation they were scattered amongst to find a home after release from captivity in Babylon :-

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

The Jews did not cease to be a people because of Judaism, the House of Israel did cease to be a people and are now forgiven in a new covenant with God, EXPLICITLY with them even though the nation does not exist by name any longer :-

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
...
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So not only the Jews are forgiven, but also the lost sheep of the House of Israel to whom the Messiah was sent by God :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Why to the House of Israel first? ... simply because they will make the Jews jealous and bring them in by knowledge of the long-awaited Messiah , the real good news of scripture that Jesus/Yeshua is the Messiah , something most Jews still do not realise ,but which their own scripture verifies, as he pointed to repeatedly, for sake of their coming to know it at the eleventh hour ... the broken off branches ,though burned with 'fire', both can and will be grafted back in through belief in the Messiah ...as Paul details in Romans 14 , but people all-too-often only look at the first part where the jews are broken off and burnt ... the later verses detail not to boast against the jews because they take much more quickly to understanding what the Messiah is about than the paganised House of Israel, because they have the Torah in their minds, just need to see what it says in actual fact , not the countless interpretations put upon it by Jews and christians alike...
The first word refers to the People, the second to the individual within the People. If one is not born a Jew or adopted into the People through conversion, then one has no right to claim to be Israel.

More exactly they would have no right to claim to be a Jew ... and Jews have made laws about who can join Israel, laws which are currently already in process of beiing changed to allow the House of Israel to be recognised as truly Israel and admit them legally as Israel...

Grafted to Israel? Yes.
Part of the commonwealth of Israel Yes.
But Israel? No.

Again one has to look at EVERY word of scripture to understand what it says uniquely , it is not of any interpretation that men, Jews and chrsitain sinners alike, have put upon it ... it thus explains itself and needs no help if only one looks at every word :-

Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

od then has humbled the House of Israel first and will use them to humble the Jews to ALL His word in their own scripture too...

And then the Jews will acknowledge their cousins of the House of Israel as true descendants of Jacob who also went astray, but ow also are accepted under a new covenant of grace, not the old covenant which saved very few indeed ,and which most men still find impossible to keep ... the new covenant is far easier in principle, God simply writes His laws in hearts and minds of the few , the remnant of Israel , only 144,000 He needs at first of the tribes of israel [Rev 7:3-8] sealed into ceasing to sin by the holy spirit giving them all truth [John 16:13]

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ [Messiah] depart from iniquity.

those who are His then are all of Israel AND all cease to sin, become saints, in this life , or in the new earth kingdom come if they died sinners as most do....

[stranger]

Ger whether right or wrong IMHO your opposition are not supercessionists.

To me they are not saying that Israel was replaced by the 'Church'.

Marc

I'm glad someone else noticed at last , and pointed it out !!!

[stranger]

Marc:

Any stealing of the name of Isreal is a form of supersessionism, because it pretentiously assumes the right to usurp the title. There is NO right to usurp the title. G-d gave the name of Israel to Jacob, not to gentile believers in Yeshua. For gentile believers to take what is not theirs to have is WRONG. It is digusting for a believer to say to the Jews, "Oh.. well... you know... we realize it is highly insulting to you that we take your name, but WEEEEEEEE know better than you. WEEEEEEE are more enlightened than you. WEEEEEEEEE are blah blah blahbetty blah better than you cuz we have Jesus and you don't. And sooooooooo it's okay that despite your objections, we call ourselves Israel."
Yeah... right...
BARF

You are right my friend in fact, but very wrong to voice it in this way ...

Nor deoes Israel need this way of expressing oneself as suppose support.... God actually knows who are His and that the first redeemed are of [true] Israel, Jesus /Yeshua has already said as much to EVERYONE [Rev 7:3-8]

If chrstians do not listen to what Jesus said, one could justly ask if they are christians ! LOL?

But it rather NEEDS to be said with scripture and without your additions which simply provoke people to antagonism and sin ... it is possible to say the same things using scripture and in a loving menner, and I ask that you consider which that god would prefer you to do...

then perhaps we ca get back to discussing ALL te scripture of God as one truth and resolve the real issues which this poll ignores, and is thus invalid, flawed....

[stranger]

I admire the sentiment and concur that supercessionism need to be refuted, but honestly, doesn't Paul come across as supersessionist at times?

I would be interested in why you think so, because I do not see His scripture that way at all.... perhaps start a thread on whst you think is along those lines and we can discuss it ?

[stranger]

Stranger, your doctrines are strange and make no sense at all. I would like to know what denomination you come FROM.
NASA

I have no doctrnes except the scripture itself no faith in this world, every faith in the desire to love in people's hearts, even my own ... a love which is the God of scripture and Israel :-

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
...
1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Since I have posted ]or will post] te scripture taht causes me to witness what it really says , then your confusion is not likely caused by the scripture, but by your having accepted some doctrines in palce of what God says ... do not be alarmed by this, all religion of Jew and Chriatian alike is DIVIDED , that leaves little scope for it to be ONE truth of God, almost all of it must be false, yet billions believe this or that denomination, not realising that they are all 'package deals' , alittle truth and lost of half-truths and errors ... else they would all agree ,and all agree with all scripture ...

So one is not right to accept a denomination until one has understood every word of God ... one does not get very far down understanding the word of god from scripture before one notices many things wrong in every denomination , indeed one could tell it must be so simply by the division of rel;igion, by denominationalism itself [which has even caused this site to become apartheid when it is supposed to be uniting people!]

Thus my friend I do not believe in denominations simply because the scripture itself proves it is a false approach , denying part of every denominational package deal .... rather I believe the whole scripture as one truth of God INTEGRAL, WHOLE, UNINTERPRETABLE, UNIQUE, as it must be to be the ONE truth of God :-

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

The scripture then interprets itself and blows apart the denominational beliefs of sinners , on simply has to read far enough and long enough at what God has had written EXACTLY for the purpose :-

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Thus I believe God, not sinners , and through that beliefe know that no sinner is authorised by God to teach other men , yet hundreds of thousands do exactly that ... an army promoting beliefs which they sell to men for a living, but which is fairly easily disproved simply by reding all the scripture of God, one can use what the saints and prophets of God have written to expose the falsity of religion made by sinners... one could however get the clue from the division of religion , it cannot thus be one truth because it is divided all the way down to individual level ...

But God promised through Jesus all truth to the few who follow Jesus in this life [John 16:13] and the same to all men in His kingdom where many live as saints, just as the few do now :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Even that one verse by Peter discredits the whole of mainline christianity ... what are sinners of this earth resurrected in the second resurrectio doing living righteously in the new earth prior to judgment day ? They are supposed by most christians to have been pre-judged on their sin in this earth.... how did they escape sin without grace ? :-

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life