Falwell and D. James Kennedy - two liberal gatekeepers pass away

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

Kobuk, kobuk, kobuk,
You are right, Jesus Christ is the only PERFECT example we should follow and worship. BUT;
*sighs*

Jerry Falwell is NOT a liberal. By definition, when he was alive, Jerry Falwell is a FUNDAMENTALIST Christian who was also a Baptist. How dare you apparently, and seemingly appear to have the judgemental arrogance to label someone a liberal gatekeeper,
whom any of us on these forums ought to feel blessed and honored by our Savior the Lord Jesus Christ if the Savior were to use us just half as much to serve the Savior reaching out to unsaved mankind, and also born-again Christians around the world,

According to what I remember watching since I was saved in 1978, the only "partnership" that Falwell had with the RCC, or even Sung Myung Moon, was concerning political and moral issues such as pro-life against abortion, their common stances against homosexuals, the homosexual lifestyle, and the homosexual political immoral agendas, as well as perhaps allying with the RCC on other moral issues of society and culture.

kobuk, my brother, I do love you and respect you as a fundamentalist brother in Christ. I do not deny that Yashua is the only perfect example, and that the 12 Apostles also are Biblical examples we should all follow in order to glorify the Lord. However, with all respect, I believe that you are being much much too judgemental and unfortunately, it appears to me that you are also being too arrogant. I hope that I am wrong, but it surely does not appear that I am. Brother Kobuk, I know that you know that NONE are perfect, all born-again believers are sinners saved by the grace of God through faith, including yourself. Therefore, when Yashua uses your service to HIM to reach out to lost mankind and also born-again believers as effectively as Yashua did with Jerry Falwell, then your apparently judgmental posts against fellow Fundamentalists will carry a bit of authority, as far as I am concerned, brother Kobuk.

Now, can we all just get along, and serve our Savior, instead of going down the slippery slope of judgmental and seemingly arrogant criticism towards those whom faithfully strived throughout their lives to serve Yashua, obey HIM, and be used by HIM? Please? is this too much to ask, my brother? :groupray:

[cajunhillbilly]

You are dead wrong about Dr Kennedy being liberal. He stood for conservative Biblical Presbyterianism and what you said about him and Falwell is pure slander. They have entered the gates of glory and are sharing the joys of heaven even now.

[FallingWaters]

Here is a touching recording of Dr. Kennedy talking about the end of his life: http://65.240.226.104:8080/ (http://65.240.226.104:8080/)

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

Again, kobuk, when you come close to being used half as much by my Lord and Savior Yashua as those two men were to serve HIM, then your judgmental slander will begin to deserve some consideration by myself.

For you to assert or imply that myself or any other fundamentalist has more faith or as much faith in Falwell and/or Kennedy than the faith we have in my Lord and Savior is nothing short of insulting slander by you that I refuse to stand for without objection.
You, sir, have gone too far. I hope that you can live with yourself knowing that you gladly and willingly slander born-again fundamentalists who love and serve the same Savior that you love and serve.

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

Can you possibly stop yourself from your Slander against men of God whom faithfully served Yashua and were used mightly by the Savior? Your attitude towards Falwell and Kennedy is very un-Christlike.

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

What you have read about them are little more than slanderous LIES. Don't believe everything you read. If you were to hear Falwell's sermons, and research the Thomas Road Baptist Church, and Liberty University, then even a Blind man could very easily see just how greatly Yashua used Falwell to spread the gospel around the world to unsaved people everywhere, as well to help disciple and teach born-again believers.
You have chosen to believe the deceitful and despicable slander written by men who for some reason want to bring schisms within the Body of Christ.

[cubanito]

Falwell and Kennedy as liberal gatekeepers, and partners of the RCC and the moonies....lunacy.

uh-huh

well, beam me up Scotty, this place is certainly headed for a collision w something

Will cont to check in one in a while.

JR

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

Kobukl
Stop the Slander Falwell never promoted RC'ism. What he did do was work with RC'ist together on political, social, and moral issues in America upon which there was mutual agreement. Falwell is a true fundamentalist whom never once preached or believed or agreed with the heresies within the RCC

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

So, if you believe that Yashua teaches that we should have "nothing to do" with those whose religious doctrines are wrong, then that means you should have absolutely nothing at all to do with any whose doctrines do not completely agree with all of what you believe to be Truth Therefore, I expect for you to only make purchases from kobuk-like Fundamentalists gas stations, grocery stores, clothing stores, restaurants, etc, etc, etc.
On the other hand, if someone wants to have a more rational viewpoint, then the vast majority of Fundamentalists will agree with me that there is nothing wrong or sinful in standing in alliance with people whose religious doctrines are heretical, as long as it is perfectly made clear that even though we do not believe their heresies, we can still work together for moral issues such as pro-life verses pro-abortion, and such as standing together against the social and political agendas of the homosexuals.
Kobuk, you claim to have done your research, but your research is extremely one-sided. Again, I challenge you to research the Thomas Road Baptist Church, research the Liberty University, and then even someone blinded by the words of others can clearly see that your Savior and mine, the Lord Jesus Christ greatly used one of HIS servants, Jerry Falwell, to fulfill the great commission, to spread the gospel of Christ, and to also make disciples of men & women across the globe. Falwell is a Fundamentalist, and no words of yours shall ever disprove that.

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

It will also be a good idea if you would research their ministries, rather than just simply accept everything that David Cloud says.

[IisJustMe]

They were in partnership with Sung Myung Moon and RC-ism. As well as some of the most liberal televangelists from Benny Hinn to Billy Graham.Calling Dr's. Falwell and Kennedy "liberal" is akin to calling Dick Nixon honest. Anyone with a computer and the intelligence to created a screen name and a password can put up any kind of nonsense like that horsehockey you linked and people will actually believe it.

We Christians need to stop passing judgment on one another and start preaching the gospel of Christ as one mind, because for the world, time is getting shorter by the day.

[Vambram]

We Christians need to stop passing judgment on one another and start preaching the gospel of Christ as one mind, because for the world, time is getting shorter by the day.


:amen: :amen: :amen:

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

And I am hearing one person rely upon basically only two or three sources of information, (David Cloud and Sermonaudio) without even actually researching the websites of Thomas Road Baptist Church and Liberty University. Their websites easily AND very clearly show the very strong fundamentalist doctrine that Jerry Falwell has always believed, taught, and preached throughout the entire length of his ministry as a servant of Yashua, our Lord and Savior.
Yes, like the Bereans, I have studied the scriptures and used the spirit of discernment, and I have found that Yashua Himself used and blessed the ministries of Jerry Falwell. Like the Bereans, I have the spirit of discernment, and without a doubt, it is very easy to see that David Cloud seeks to create schisms within Fundamentalistsof the Body of Christ. I do not know why David Cloud and his ilk seek to do this, and I really do not care. After researching and listening to Jerry Falwell's ministry for over twenty years, I know beyond any reasonable doubt that the Lord and Savior, Yashua greatly blessed the ministry of one of HIS servants, Jerry Falwell.
Now, kobuk, can we please stop attempting to create schisms among Fundamentalists? Do your research on Falwell and Kennedy using sources beyond David Cloud and Ian Paisley (who, btw, was also a British politician besides also being a Fundamentalist according to infomation googled about Ian Paisley). However, Kobuk, be honest, go to the source, and research the doctrines and ministries of Thomas Road Baptist Church and Liberty University. IF after reading their websites of their ministries you still feel like you are justified in these attempts to create schisms among like minded Fundamentalists, then that is your choice. However, until you do proper research, any and all information you are reading is extremely one-sided.

[neunown]

Both men have recently died. Leaving an ever widening chasm in the ranks of the old guard of liberal gatekeepers that have worn the mask of christian fundamentalism for decades. Since the 1960's. Fundamentalist they were not. They were in partnership with Sung Myung Moon and RC-ism. As well as some of the most liberal televangelists from Benny Hinn to Billy Graham.

so youre exposing falwell and kennedy as bad people after their recent decease?; is that the point of this thread?

[Albion]

so youre exposing falwell and kennedy as bad people after their recent decease?; is that the point of this thread?

No, he has a number of doctrinal quirks that he posts constantly and which have nothing to do with Fundamentalism. But considering himself to be the consumate Fundamentalist, he labels most other Fundamentalists--those who don't buy into his personal doctrinal emphases--as "liberals."

Since no one else would consider the Revs. Falwell and Kennedy to really be theological or political liberals, this may be done mainly to see if it's possible to get a rise out of us. There would be few other reasons for anyone to gloat over the death of any Christian pastor.

[neunown]

But considering himself to be the consumate Fundamentalist, he labels most other Fundamentalists--those who don't buy into his personal doctrinal emphases--as "liberals."
so he likes to label people in other words

[Vambram]

I found the doctrinal statement for Liberty University, a school started by Jerry Falwell whom some claim and believe to be "a liberal gatekeeper." Read this, and then see if this doctrinal statement of faith is what "a liberal gatekeeper" would believe and teach.





We affirm our belief in one God, infinite Spirit, creator, and sustainer of all things, who exists eternally in three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three are one in essence but distinct in person and function.

We affirm that the Father is the first person of the Trinity and the source of all that God is and does. From Him the Son is eternally generated and from Them the Spirit eternally proceeds. He is the designer of creation, the speaker of revelation, the author of redemption, and the sovereign of history.

We affirm that the Lord Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity, eternally begotten from the Father. He is God. He was conceived by the virgin Mary through a miracle of the Holy Spirit. He lives forever as perfect God and perfect man: two distinct natures inseparably united in one person.

We affirm that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, proceeding from the Father and the Son and equal in deity. He is the giver of all life, active in the creating and ordering of the universe; He is the agent of inspiration and the new birth; He restrains sin and Satan; and He indwells and sanctifies all believers.

We affirm that all things were created by God. Angels were created as ministering agents, though some, under the leadership of Satan, fell from their sinless state to become agents of evil. The universe was created in six historical days and is continuously sustained by God; thus it both reflects His glory and reveals His truth. Human beings were directly created, not evolved, in the very image of God. As reasoning moral agents, they are responsible under God for understanding and governing themselves and the world.

We affirm that the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, though written by men, was supernaturally inspired by God so that all its words are the written true revelation of God; it is therefore inerrant in the originals and authoritative in all matters. It is to be understood by all through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, its meaning determined by the historical, grammatical, and literary use of the author’s language, comparing Scripture with Scripture.

We affirm that Adam, the first man, willfully disobeyed God, bringing sin and death into the world. As a result, all persons are sinners from conception, which is evidenced in their willful acts of sin; and they are therefore subject to eternal punishment, under the just condemnation of a holy God.

We affirm that Jesus Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice by the appointment of the Father. He fulfilled the demands of God by His obedient life, died on the cross in full substitution and payment for the sins of all, was buried, and on the third day He arose physically and bodily from the dead. He ascended into heaven where He now intercedes for all believers.

We affirm that each person can be saved only through the work of Jesus Christ, through repentance of sin and by faith alone in Him as Savior. The believer is declared righteous, born again by the Holy Spirit, turned from sin, and assured of heaven.

We affirm that the Holy Spirit indwells all who are born again, conforming them to the likeness of Jesus Christ. This is a process completed only in Heaven. Every believer is responsible to live in obedience to the Word of God in separation from sin.

We affirm that a church is a local assembly of baptized believers, under the discipline of the Word of God and the lordship of Christ, organized to carry out the commission to evangelize, to teach, and to administer the ordinances of believer’s baptism and the Lord’s table. Its offices are pastors and deacons, and it is self-governing. It functions through the ministry of gifts given by the Holy Spirit to each believer.

We affirm that the return of Christ for all believers is imminent. It will be followed by seven years of great tribulation, and then the coming of Christ to establish His earthly kingdom for a thousand years. The unsaved will then be raised and judged according to their works and separated forever from God in hell. The saved, having been raised, will live forever in heaven in fellowship with God.

[kobuk]

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[Albion]

The arful wording aside, what all that means is Falwell received money from the LaHayes, also fundamentalist Christians...and Moon spoke highly of Falwell, not the other way around. Moon always was doing that--associating himself with others as though they agreed with him, particularly in the case of pro-Americans (since that was part of the Unification Church's doctrine). Falwell and Kennedy were certainly that!

Much ado about very little.

As for the supposedly pure 'local churches,' we have many examples of them as less committed to the Gospel Message and more money-oriented than any denomination where at least there is some accountability.

Watch TV some Sunday morning and you'll have more than enough examples of this to prove the point well. But by the way, for most of Falwell's career, his church, the Thomas Road Baptist Church, was exactly what you say you want, what you say guarantees a good ministry, and what you claim we all ought to belong to--an independent local church.

[neunown]

With me on this are many of the strongest Fundamentalist Preachers you can find around the world. Not just David Cloud. Great defenders of the purity of our Local Churches like Ralph Ovadal.

:sigh: arent david cloud and ralph ovadal a little bit liberal? we have to be careful, y'know

[kobuk]

The arful wording aside, what all that means is Falwell received money
"Reverend Sun Myung Moon is like the plague: he exploits boys and girls, and he should be exported."

"An unsung hero to the cause of freedom, who is to be commended for his determination and courage and endurance in support of his beliefs."

Yes. What all that means is Falwell received money. I say this very calmly. ;)

[neunown]

I say this very calmly. ;)
:eek: how can you say this calmly? have you no sense of conviction? no passion? are you lulled into a false sense of security?

[Albion]

What all that means is Falwell received money. I say this very calmly. ;)

Most pastors do receive money, just like the rest of us. There is nothing wrong with that.

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

However, if being a Fundamentalists means that I have to believe the attacks against fellow Fundamentalist being spewed out of the mouth of Kobuk, then I shall refuse to call myself a Fundamentalist.
If being a Fundamentalist means that I have to compare fellow Fundamentalists to Satan, like Kobuk did, then I am ashamed to be a Fundamentalist
Yashua, I praise YOU and I thank YOU that I need not to accept these two conditions in order to be a Fundamentalist. Kobuk, you should be ashamed of yourself, but clearly, you are not, and clearly you are going to continue to put forth attacks against fellow Fundamentalist servants of your Lord and Savior.

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

According to Kobuk, one cannot be "a true Fundamentalist" unless one walks lockstep in 100% complete agreement with everything that Kobuk believes. Okay, so I maybe this is an exaggeration of what Kobuk thinks, but it has already been explained in clear, elementary and easy to understand terms exactly what kind of associations his targets of attacks have had with the heretics and cultists. Yet, this is not good enough for Kobuk. What I am seeing instead, is that Kobuk wants to add to the definition of Fundamentalism rejecting the definition of Fundamentalism as first established by Fundamentalists.
So, I ask you, Kobuk, in your own personal daily life, do the only people you associate with happen to be ONLY born-again Fundamentalist believers with the exception of witnessing, teaching and preaching the Gospel of Christ to the lost unbelievers?

[neunown]

It often takes expensive deprogramming to restore a "moonie" back to a normal life.
now youre just getting liberal; why not rely on the gospel instead? you cant buy moonies out of sin with money; they have to be redeemed by the blood of christ

[IisJustMe]

The Bereans did not consider the Apostle Paul's words to be untouchable. They went right after him word by word to compare what he said with Scripture.There is absolutely no Scriptural basis for this statement. You say this as though there was animosity between the Bereans and Paul. In fact, Paul commended them for their searching the Scriptures to assure themselves he spoke the truth. Your assumption that there must be animus and pique between differing viewpoints says far more about you and your inner being than I'm sure you intend.This is a matter for each Local Church to consider.An excellent point. It brings up the question, "So why are you bashing other denominations and their leaders in this thread when it is, in fact, a local issue, and none of your business?"

[cubanito]

I think passing judgement on others, ESPECIALLY Christians, ESPECIALLY if they have become teachers and even more so public figures is not only right, it is necessary.

However, one should make those judgements "in fear and trembling", knowing that by the same yardstick one measures others, one will be measured.

I am willing to consider kobuk ignorant, with true but misguided zeal, but those he cites are slanderous. It is they, and not Falwell nor Kennedy that will be held to account.

Both Falwell and Kennedy were sinners, but either one has done more to champion God's Word than everybody on this thread put together. Time an again I saw Kennedy and Falwell make it clear that salvation was by Faith Jesus Christ ALONE, resisting tremendous pressure to compromise the Gospel. These men, especially Falwell, were frequently viciously attacked not only by the general media, but by many in the RCC, for their completely uncompromizing stance against errors.

Unfortunately, I can not say the same of Billy Graham, who did in fact compromize the Gospel in some respects, at times allowing that salvation was possible by means other than Christ. Even so, I count Billy Graham a far better man than I.

Kobuk, you have a problem brother. I don't know where exactly, but I suggest you calm down and try to understand the difference between separating from a grossly immoral "Christian" and collaborating on a limited number of social issues with those whom one does not agree.

JR

[Vambram]

That is a very good post, cubanito. Thank you. :)

[IisJustMe]

Unfortunately, I can not say the same of Billy Graham, who did in fact compromize the Gospel in some respects, at times allowing that salvation was possible by means other than Christ.I'd like to see an example of that posted here. Thanks.

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

You have yet to provide any real and solid proof for your judgmental attacks upon these two staunch defenders of Fundamentalism. Everything you have attempted to show is nothing more than heresay without proof. There is no proof, none. Falwell and Kennedy's theology as Fundamentalists did not waver, and the gospel and doctrines they always believed remained always true to fundamentalism.
What kobuk wants to do is add to fundamentalism, and say that unless someone agrees totally with himself and his doctrinal quirks, then one is not a "true fundamentalist." Perhaps the readers of this thread ought to take a look at what the definitions and beliefs of Fundamentalism are as defined by that fundamentalist council in Chicago. Perhaps kobuk can recognise the very easy to understand difference in working with unbelievers for political and moral causes, and still do not promote or agree with the heresies of the cultists and unbelievers. But then again, perhaps Kobuk refuses to recognise this. Therefore, I ask Kobuk if he only goes shopping at Fundamentalist places of business, and I ask Kobuk if the taxes he pays to the government only goes to pay for Fundamentalist causes. Like it or not, brother kobuk, 99% of the Fundamentalists do not agree with you and David Cloud about "true fundamentalistism." Please wake up and look around into reality. This is not a fundamentalist world that we live in, and if we isolate ourselves to fundamentalists only contacts when trying to effect social and political changes on a national scale, well, then that simply is a unwise way to try to reach out effecting changes in our culture and society to such a degree of effectiveness like men such as Falwell and Kennedy did by the blessings and grace of Yashua upon both Kennedy and Falwell.

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

I can see the text, I can read, but there is no source for the text, no proof as to where the text comes from, and no proof that what the source says is accurate, either.
And when are you going to answer the questions I raised to you? Kobuk, you have yet to come close to doing so.

[kobuk]

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[IisJustMe]

Was there anything in the picture of the African Savannah? ;)As I said in my earliest post here, anyone can post anything. That doesn't make it true. You, my friend, should perhaps consider adjusting your motivation and your attitude, as you insist on attacking others rather than praising God. In the body of Christ as a whole, doctrinal differences are a matter to be discussed within denominational contexts. Men such as Dr's. Falwell and Kennedy are to be supported, not vilified, regardless of what the enemy wants to plant in the way of seeds of doubt, innuendo and strife regarding these strong servants of Christ. This isn't the same thing as, for example, a Ted Haggard. These are efforts by the enemy to discredit men who have fought the good fight and now gone on to their rest.

Why are you trying to destroy them? I have to ask that, and the only possible answers are not a good reflection on you or your walk with Christ. That makes them a bad reflection on Christ, and for that reason I have to reject what you say.

[Vambram]

Was there anything in the picture of the African Savannah? ;)
yeah, there is a picture of a purple elephant, and your point is what? and When are you finally going to answer the questions I have put to you? The way you keep dodging the questions reminds me of the way that guests on "The O'Reilly Factor" try to spin their answers and try to dodge the questions instead of trying to answer them.

[Albion]

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/22500/22911_w.jpg

In 1978, before the Moon money started flowing, Falwell told Esquire magazine, "Reverend Sun Myung Moon is like the plague: he exploits boys and girls, and he should be exported."

Falwell after the money
"An unsung hero to the cause of freedom, who is to be commended for his determination and courage and endurance in support of his beliefs."

Even if the above were correct, it wouldn't make Falwell not a Fundamentalist. End of the issue.


And it doesn't support your other pet theory--that only a local church is a good church--since with Falwell what you had was a local church.

[Project 86]

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/22500/22911_w.jpg

Falwell before the money.

In 1978, before the Moon money started flowing, Falwell told Esquire magazine, "Reverend Sun Myung Moon is like the plague: he exploits boys and girls, and he should be exported."

Falwell after the money
"An unsung hero to the cause of freedom, who is to be commended for his determination and courage and endurance in support of his beliefs."

Brother Vambram could you do two things for me? [1] Can you please tell me what you see above? [2] If you can't see the text, i was just curious if you could also not see anything in the picture of the African Savanna. Thank you. Have a nice day.

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/22500/22911_w.jpg

Quotes without out sources that can be read by others are meaningless. Reason being is anyone can then make any false claim they want and no one would be able to prove otherwise.

[kobuk]

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[IisJustMe]

How would Yahshua deal with phony Messiah impersonator Moon? ... Is there no Scripture that gives us even just a clue? ;)
The issue in this thread is that you have smeared unfairly and deliberately two men who have served God well by associating them with lies, innuendo and unattributed quotes to the ilk of Moon. You haven't dealt honestly with the efforts calling you to account, instead engaging in the tactics of the Third Reich by hoping to repeat a lie or an innuendo loudly enough and often enough to make it stick to the innocent target.

It won't work. We are on to you. You, sir, are in need of an attitude adjustment. I have edited this as I used a judgmental statement previously, which I now regret. I ask Kobuk's forgiveness, and I am sorry I offended.

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

apologeticsindex.org proves nothing, because they have no outside sources as proofs to back up their claims with their attacks upon Falwell.
I am sorry, kobuk, but you are going to have to do much better than this to attempt to persuade me that you are correct.

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

Don't be so sorry. Suit yourself. I'm not your maker. The intent of my post is to share with everyone an honest opinion without trying to force it upon anyone.

The power is in the Word of Yah to do the instructing.
That is true, and the Word of Yah has instructed me that you are not correct in your inflammatory opinions about Falwell and Kennedy, nor what you feel like constitutes a "true fundamentalist." In my own honest opinion and belief, even after over five pages of this thread, I still believe that your opinion about these men is incorrect. Therefore, we shall instead agree to disagree about this topic.

[kobuk]

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[Albion]

That is true, and the Word of Yah has instructed me that you are not correct in your inflammatory opinions about Falwell and Kennedy, nor what you feel like constitutes a "true fundamentalist." In my own honest opinion and belief, even after over five pages of this thread, I still believe that your opinion about these men is incorrect. Therefore, we shall instead agree to disagree about this topic.

He may have a point about either of these men. Given a lifetime of them being in the public eye, either or both no doubt said something that someone else could disagree with.

But the overriding point is that they are both Fundamentalists, whatever else one may say. AND they absolutely are not Liberals.

Had Kobuk said that they were Calvinists and he doesn't like Calvin, or that they were involved in public policy/politics and he dosen't care for that, it would be one thing. A personal opinion. But mischaracterizing either as a Liberal or not a Fundamentalist is just not accurate or right to do, not even for shock value or to catch our attention.

[Vambram]

He may have a point about either of these men. Given a lifetime of them being in the public eye, either or both no doubt said something that someone else could disagree with.

But the overriding point is that they are both Fundamentalists, whatever else one may say. AND they absolutely are not Liberals.

Had Kobuk said that they were Calvinists and he doesn't like Calvin, or that they were involved in public policy/politics and he dosen't care for that, it would be one thing. A personal opinion. But mischaracterizing either as a Liberal or not a Fundamentalist is just not accurate or right to do, not even for shock value or to catch our attention.
I agree, Albion. Neither of those two men are perfect, and I'm sure there are points of disagreements with what they have said or done that even I do have with them. But to call them liberals, and to say that they are not Fundamentalists, is simply completely incorrect, and very false judgments for a person to make. Thats been the point that I have been making throughout this thread. :)

[kobuk]

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[Vambram]

Idle chit-chat.
w/e

[Albion]

I agree, Albion. Neither of those two men are perfect, and I'm sure there are points of disagreements with what they have said or done that even I do have with them. But to call them liberals, and to say that they are not Fundamentalists, is simply completely incorrect, and very false judgments for a person to make. Thats been the point that I have been making throughout this thread. :)

Right. Neither man's style or values in any way amounted to being Liberal. Kobuk's criticisms were for some other reason having nothing to do with Fundamentalism or Liberalism but it was convenient to misuse the words in order to be provocative.

[kobuk]

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[Albion]

The forum is actually for Fundamentalists, not those who want a new definition of "Fundamentalist" substituted for it.

Take your proposal to the "Ask a Fundamentalist" section, outline the points in your definition, and we'll take it up with you.

[kobuk]

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[FreeinChrist]

sigh.... let's not flame each other, okay? Flaming includes directing criticism at the poster instead of the post. We are brothers and sisters in Christ.

[Albion]

Seriously, would it be interesting to take up the Kobuk challenge to Fundamentalism and discuss--in the proper subforum, of course--whether the principles of Fundamentalism should be rewritten into a "New Fundamentalism" or "True Fundamentalism?" Maybe it could be argued pro and con that belonging to any denomination is contrary to Christ's will...or that taking a stand on social issues--or voting itself maybe--is unBiblical. Or maybe not.

[IisJustMe]

I am convicted of my own sin, which was to pass judgment on a heart that I nor anyone can see. I don't care for you attitude, still. But that does not give me the right to make any public determination of your walk in Christ. Please forgive me.

[Armistead]

Really, Falwell and Kennedy should have been boiled in water or burned at the stake...the way Fundies of old did things.

[Vambram]

And I am offended that Kobuk thinks he has the right to even dare to think that I am not a true Fundamentalist. It is Kobuk who wants to change the definition of what a Fundamentalist Christian is. Kobuk is the one whom has attacked Fundamentalists throughout this thread by claiming that they are liberal gatekeepers, and by claiming that only those whom agree with David Cloud, and Ralph Ovadal, and the supposedly dozens more "True Fundamentalists" are indeed fundamentalists. If you disagree with Kobuk about the subject of this thread, than all of a sudden you are not a True Fundamentalist. Well, Kobuk, I take extremely strong offense at those insulting words of yours. I am a Fundamentalis. I was saved and born again in an Indepedent Fundamentalist Baptist church over 29 years ago. Throughout my Christian life, I have been, and I am still today a Fundamentalist. I take very strong offense that Kobuk and David Cloud and Ralph Ovadal and the supposedly dozens of others are the only ones whom get to define Fundamentalist Christians. I am not a "pea in the pod" I am not an Ecumentalist. NO, a thousand times NO!!!! I shall not stand by and allow Kobuk to get away with his insulting words. Kobuk and David Cloud and Ralph Ovadal do NOT hold the corner of Fundamentalist Christians.
Instead, I say to Kobuk, that True Fundamentalist Christians constitutes a much larger constituency of True Fundamentalist Christians that goes way beyond the scope of influence of Kobuk, David Cloud, Ralph Ovadal, and the supposedly dozens of other preachers that think just like these two named preachers.
I am not a pea in the pod.
I am not an Ecumentalist.
No, I am none of these, but instead, I have been, and I always shall be a True Fundamentalist, despite any mischaracterizations and misdefinitions of the term which others might attempt to do.

[kobuk]

"bump"

[daniel777]

perhaps you should try to carry on this discussion in the liberal forum....just see how that flies :) ....is there a gay "christian" forum...you might want to try that one too. :)

[Albion]

Really, Falwell and Kennedy should have been boiled in water or burned at the stake...the way Fundies of old did things.

You may have wanted them boiled, all right, but you history is wrong. Fundamentalism is a recent movement, born out of opposition to modern liberal theology and having nothing to do with the famous Catholic vs. heretic, etc. persecutions of earlier centuries.

[No Swansong]

You may have wanted them boiled, all right, but you history is wrong. Fundamentalism is a recent movement, born out of opposition to modern liberal theology and having nothing to do with the famous Catholic vs. heretic, etc. persecutions of earlier centuries.
This is true. The term "fundamentalist" was not even applied to the movement it now defines until the early 1900's after the publication of the essays that were compiled by Torrey and dubbed "The Fundamentals".

[Vambram]

and now it appears that Kobuk and others want to redefine Fundamentalists, mistakenly believing that they & they alone whom agree 1000% with everything they believe are the only ones whom are actually Fundamentalists. Well, this is one true Fundamentalist who refuses to let anyone redefine Fundamentalism from what has already been established for longer than anyone on these forums have been alive.

[kobuk]

"bump"

[Vambram]

The current official definition of the term "Fundamentalist" used here in these Forums sticks to the above requirement to be sourced in the solid ground of Scripture and not the shifting sand of any schemes of men or Satan. So we have a good base here that's deeply rooted in Yah's Word. That was the intent of the original founders of the Fundamentalist Movement that jtdad is showing to us.


I agree, and yet you really do appear as if you want to redefine Fundamentalism to a far narrower extent than what the definition of Fundamentalism which has already been well established on the http://foru.ms/f370-fundamentalist-churches.html
and has already been well established by the Fundamentalist teachers and preachers of years gone by starting with R.A. Torrey.
Again, kobuk, I ask that you please do not attempt to change a definition that has already been accepted and well established.

[kobuk]

"bump"

[Vambram]

And your point is what? Nothing you have said in this post of yours would have found any disagreement in the beliefs and teachings Falwell and Kennedy. ;)

[Albion]

The term "Fundamentalist" in the USA is heavily abused by our Media whorepress exactly the way they've abused the term "conservative". There has been a shift left towards liberalism in Conservative Politics. And there has been a shift left towards liberalism within Churchianity. The term Fundamentalist within Churchianity is abused to the point of forcing us to use a considerable amount of discernment now to see through those who are stuffing some pretty heinous things behind the terms "conservative politician" and "fundamentalist christian". Labels become useful curtains to hide things behind.

The Fundamentals are displayed on this forum for all to see. This is Fundamentalism.


Crusading against people , ii.e. individuals, whom the media have wrongly labelled as Fundamentalists is something entirely different. But Falwell and Kennedy were Fundamentalists anyway, meaning that the media were not wrong in calling them such.

Therefore, the criticism is not related to Fundamentalism at all, not to the definition, or about the media being inaccurate in using the word in reference to them. It is only a personal effort springing from a personal opinion that is not related to Fundamentlalism.

[david01]

I agree with you entirely, Albion.

[salida]

You don't seem to be familiar with these two individuals. They were both true men of God and weren't "liberal". The liberty they have now is being in Christ Jesus - its called being liberal spiritually from this fallen world as their in heaven.

[kobuk]

"bump"

[Vambram]

People with spiritual discernment often come under attack for what the Holy Spirit is informing them about.

No way am i going to just ignore the Televangelist trend towards associating with Reverand Sung Myung Moon. I'm done going over this topic just because there is a command in Scripture to particition time wisely and there are a great multitude of "other" matters to spend time studying.
And no way will I sit idly by while someone claims that the Holy Spirit is telling him to attack two faithful and loyal servants of Yashua, my Savior.
Will you ever admit any possibility of errors in any of your beliefs, assertions and attacks, Kobuk?

[kobuk]

"bump"

[Vambram]

Sorry pal, but what you see as anger, is not anger at all, but instead honest and sincere rebukes of your attacks against fellow Fundamentalists. I don't suppose that you are telepathic or empathic allowing you the ability to read the emotions of someone whom you have never met, nor you have never seen?

Oh, and one more thing, Kobuk, this is not your "your Fundamentalist forum" it is the forum for Fundamentalist Christians, and you are not the owner or caretaker of these forums. :)

[No Swansong]

As someone who has been a part of this board for a very long time I would appreciate it if this would end.

[jlujan69]

What I've learned in my relatively short walk as a believer is to assess the man overall. As an example, I love using Jack Chick gospel tracts and believe God has called him to a powerful ministry.How many have been saved as a result of these tracts only the Lord knows. Yet, I've also read his views on Billy Graham and about his KJVO stance and find myself not entirely agreeing with him on these. Yet overall, I think that the man is doing the work he's been called to do, though imperfectly. I balance my zealous defense of the Scriptures with the very real fact that my understanding of them is far from complete. And if my understanding is incomplete, should I hold someone else to an impossbily higher standard? Of course not! If someone knew me, he'd find plenty to criticize about my walk. I only hope he wouldn't presume I'm unsaved.