A hypothetical and difficult question for fundamentalism

[BlackSabb]

Hi again everyone. Thank you for those who responded to my previous question about fundamentalist belief and Hell.

Many of you emphatically stated that without acceptance of the literal and historical Jesus Christ, a person is condemned to Hell. So here is something that has bothered me for quite a long time.

I have lived long enough on this earth to know that we are all a product of various factors. We are a product of our parental upbringing, our society, our political system, our family, our culture and our experiences growing up. All these serve to shape who we are and what we become in adult life.

Part of that shaping of course is our personal beliefs, values and convictions. But I am convinced that regardless how any person claims to base their life and values on any particular "truth", religion or creed, that all the factors I mentioned previously also influeces the same.

So my question is simple: As many of you claim emphatically the need for acceptance of Jesus, can any one of you absolutely emphatically give me an iron clad guarantee that if you happened to be born and raised into a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, non religious or atheist family etc, that you would today be a Christian?

To me, I see it relatively easy to be dogmatic about Christianity when living in a predominantly Christian nation and raised by Christian parents, attending a Christian school. I know that this is my case. My point previously is that many, if not all, Christians are not Christians just because of personal convictions, but because of influence and rearing by parents, family etc.

I honestly don't know what I would believe today if I was raised in a different culture with different parents. I could not give a guarantee I would believe in Jesus if I was raised differently.

How about the rest of you?

[kobuk]

Sounds like this question could best be properly addressed in the "Ask a Fundamentalist" subforum at the top of the page. But judging by your sincerity your question is no doubt well intended and that of a truthseeker. So i'll answer it here this time. Though next time please begin new questions in the correct area...

...in my own case, both parents were not very interested in spirituality. They were most interested in having a basic life filled with hobbies, etc. To this day that void of no spiritual teaching in my life is a continual rememberance and even a hinderance in many ways. Spiritual reality was not expressed to me as a child. I got tought a fraction of the total of what's real in life in all it's dimensions and possibilities. Leaving Yahshua out results in a great void.

But am i a "product" of those first 18 years of my life? Not totally. Because i spent a large portion on my time away from home in school or out playing or in my room studying or whatever. Our Creator still very much influenced me. So that by the time i was age 19 i was very much interested in true christianity.

Culture in the USA is predominatly influence by Paganism and Apostate Christianity. Getting very much worse all the time not better. But our Creator is in charge of bringing to Himself those whom He has chosen and we can be in touch with His seeking of us from a very early age in no matter what circumstance.

[BlackSabb]

Sounds like this question could best be properly addressed in the "Ask a Fundamentalist" subforum at the top of the page. But judging by your sincerity your question is no doubt well intended and that of a truthseeker. So i'll answer it here this time. Though next time please begin new questions in the correct area...

...in my own case, both parents were not very interested in spirituality. They were most interested in having a basic life filled with hobbies, etc. To this day that void of no spiritual teaching in my life is a continual rememberance and even a hinderance in many ways. Spiritual reality was not expressed to me as a child. I got tought a fraction of the total of what's real in life in all it's dimensions and possibilities. Leaving Yahshua out results in a great void.

But am i a "product" of those first 18 years of my life? Not totally. Because i spent a large portion on my time away from home in school or out playing or in my room studying or whatever. Our Creator still very much influenced me. So that by the time i was age 19 i was very much interested in true christianity.

Culture in the USA is predominatly influence by Paganism and Apostate Christianity. Getting very much worse all the time not better. But our Creator is in charge of bringing to Himself those whom He has chosen and we can be in touch with His seeking of us from a very early age in no matter what circumstance.



I have 2 things to say regarding your response. Firstly, yes, it is possible to go to a belief system you were not raised in, as you yourself are an example. However, simple statistics show that far more people in this world are Christian, Buddhist, Muslim etc as a result of a religious upbringing. There will always be exceptions, but they are the odd ones out, and not the rule in general.

This is why for eg, Iran is a Muslim nation. All the parents of that nation train their children up into Islam, and hence the Islamic religion is continually perpetuated. For sure, there are a very small, insignificant amount that go against this general trend, but for the overwhelming majority, it holds true.


Secondly, you use yourself as an example that God "called you" into belief and his knowledge despite the fact that you had no instruction in him in your childhood.

You say, "but our creator is in charge of bringing to himself those he has chosen", and you use this as evidence by your own personal example, as you have being "brought to him" despite having no religious background.

The problem I have with this is what about the overwhelming majority of those in Iran, Iraq, India etc? Christianity is a minority in these and other countries. Therefore, by your argument, hardly any of those people are chosen by God to be brought unto himself.

And by your very own argument, it can be said that if God "is in charge" of bringing those who belong to him unto himself, there are only 2 logical conclusions: that hardly anyone in many nations of the earth are chosen by God to be brought unto himself, or that he is unable to bring those of his unto himself, as evident by the fact that many nations have a Christian minority only-in some cases extremely marginal.

And that to me just doesn't add up. To me, it just sounds like the luck of the draw where and when you were born that you will have a chance to hear of Jesus and be saved.

It just doesn't sound right to me.

[BlackSabb]

Oops!!! Accidentally posted the above post twice. Silly, silly me.

So how's everybody doing? Do you like the bunny slippers and cute kitty in my avatar? My wife did that.

Women!!! I choose a really cool username, BlackSabb, short for of course, Black Sabbath, and my wife undoes it all and sucks all the testosterone out of it with bunny slippers, a kitty and a bunny.

And the farmer John bib and brace overalls don't exactly make me want to head bang with excitement either.

But heck, I love her.

[IisJustMe]

I honestly don't know what I would believe today if I was raised in a different culture with different parents. I could not give a guarantee I would believe in Jesus if I was raised differently.If growing up in a predominantly Christian nation were a guarantee of coming to love and serve Jesus Christ, the US would not have the division and strife it has over Christian beliefs. The gospel is preached to overcome the "wisdom" of the world, and once hearing the truth, each becomes responsible for the response to it.

[amadeus2]

Much of what you say is true and I suspect that many if not most people who are called Christians or call themselves Christians did not begin as sincere, surrendered Christians and may not be so now.

Growing up in a family that is Christian even nominally, influences the children in that direction. However, if the Christianity is not real in the parents but only a facade because that is what is expected (by other family, friends, community) then is likely that many or most of the children brought in that environment will have the same type of wish-washy Christianity.

This does not, however, get at the heart of the matter which is as Pontius Pilate asked Jesus: What is truth? I believe that the Truth of God is absolute as opposed to the relative truths of humanity. As such it will stand whether we stand with it or not.

Real Christians (in the sense of being followers of Christ) must somehow get clear of the ways they have followed throughout their lives prior to coming to a real belief in the Truth of Christ. I like to call these ways 'iniquity' or 'men's ways'. These 'men's ways' are those which you described as coming from the influences of people around them(such as parents, family, friends, etc.).

A real relationship with God does not exist based on only those habits developed as 'men's ways' (including church attendance and church involvements) alone. Somewhere a personal commitment with God is needed. Parents, family and friends who are really commited to God themselves (as opposed to those with a superficial, culturally derived pattern of behavior), can and will influence a person's development in the direction of God, but the person must go beyond that. How many actually do is a question that only God can answer.

Now whether or not I would be a Christian if brought up in an almost totally Hindu or Buddhist or Islamic is a purely hypothetical question. I cannot definitely answer it, but here is what I think. If God is really the God that i believe He is then He knows what is is happening and He is in control. Do you realize that an ominipotent and omniscient God would be aware of every question that a person such as yourself could ask like this? Would He not also realize the difference that such radically environments would make to any given person born in them? Of course He would and would act accordingly. Not being God, of course, I do not know exactly what all of those actions would be.

Christianity was born in a hostile environment. The scribes, Pharisees, Sadduccees, etc. who headed the primary religious groups in Jerusalem and its surrounding communities were very strongly opposed to what Jesus was doing. All of their efforts to stop Him and His subsequent followers were, nevertheless, in vain. If God is what I described Him as being above then again He was the reason that it could not fail. His purposes do not fail. His Word once spoken, unlike our words, NEVER come back to Him without accomplishing exactly what He desires.

Would the hostile environment of Iran to a person living as a Christian hinder a person from becoming one? Of course, it would apply tremendous pressures on him, but if he was called by God and he chose to follow God then if God's promises are true, God would hold him up.

Jesus said:
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matt 11:28-30

Americans for the most part have a very easy life compared to most of the rest of the world. This was not true of early Christians described in the Bible and it is not true of Christians today in a number of other countries. Americans and others who could not or would not give up this countries life or freedom for God will have no part with Him. He is able to take people through whatever it is that comes up, but they must believe that. A person saying that he could or would suffer and die if called upon to do so does not make it so. God knows the difference. God knows our hearts.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt 7:21-23



I have 2 things to say regarding your response. Firstly, yes, it is possible to go to a belief system you were not raised in, as you yourself are an example. However, simple statistics show that far more people in this world are Christian, Buddhist, Muslim etc as a result of a religious upbringing. There will always be exceptions, but they are the odd ones out, and not the rule in general.

This is why for eg, Iran is a Muslim nation. All the parents of that nation train their children up into Islam, and hence the Islamic religion is continually perpetuated. For sure, there are a very small, insignificant amount that go against this general trend, but for the overwhelming majority, it holds true.


Secondly, you use yourself as an example that God "called you" into belief and his knowledge despite the fact that you had no instruction in him in your childhood.

You say, "but our creator is in charge of bringing to himself those he has chosen", and you use this as evidence by your own personal example, as you have being "brought to him" despite having no religious background.

The problem I have with this is what about the overwhelming majority of those in Iran, Iraq, India etc? Christianity is a minority in these and other countries. Therefore, by your argument, hardly any of those people are not chosen by God to be brought unto himself.

And by your very own argument, it can be said that if God "is in charge" of bringing those who belong to him unto himself, there are only 2 logical conclusions: that hardly anyone in many nations of the earth are not chosen by God to be brought unto himself, or that he is unable to bring those of his unto himself, as evident by the fact that many nations have a Christian minority only-in some cases extremely marginal.

And that to me just doesn't add up. To me, it just sounds like the luck of the draw where and when you were born that you will have a chance to hear of Jesus and be saved.

It just doesn't sound right to me.

[BlackSabb]

Well then, let me put it to you another, simpler way. What is the percentage of say Muslims in Iran? Would you agree it is in the high 90's? Say 95% or over?

So let's say that 95% of Iranians are Muslims. Therefore, if any one of us were born in Iran, there is a 95% chance that we would be Muslim.

Simple indisputable statistics.

"God knows our hearts" I hear some of you continually say. Well that's good, because there has to be a way for a significant amount of the population, not just the extremely few, to enter Heaven with such a high stastical rate of not "accepting" Jesus.

That 95% chance of being Muslim could easily have been you or me. It's just by chance you (I'm assuming here) and me have not been born in Iran.

And yet whether you or me have been born in Iran or not, our "hearts" are still the same.

[amadeus2]

Well then, let me put it to you another, simpler way. What is the percentage of say Muslims in Iran? Would you agree it is in the high 90's? Say 95% or over?

So let's say that 95% of Iranians are Muslims. Therefore, if any one of us were born in Iran, there is a 95% chance that we would be Muslim.

Simple indisputable statistics.

"God knows our hearts" I hear some of you continually say. Well that's good, because there has to be a way for a significant amount of the population, not just the extremely few, to enter Heaven with such a high stastical rate of not "accepting" Jesus.

That 95% chance of being Muslim could easily have been you or me. It's just by chance you (I'm assuming here) and me have not been born in Iran.

And yet whether you or me have been born in Iran or not, our "hearts" are still the same.
Except...it is not just by chance that someone was born in the United States or was born in Iran.

[BlackSabb]

Except...it is not just by chance that someone was born in the United States or was born in Iran.


Well this makes the situation even worse then. If you say adamantly that you need to be born again and accept Jesus by the Christian standards that you are familiar with, and if God births people by his will, not by chance, in countries where Christianity is barely heard or in the minority, then................................

It is God bringing people into the earth that he picks and chooses, with no chance of salvation. This is exactly what a friend of mine once said to me.

[Project 86]

Well this makes the situation even worse then. If you say adamantly that you need to be born again and accept Jesus by the Christian standards that you are familiar with, and if God births people by his will, not by chance, in countries where Christianity is barely heard or in the minority, then................................

It is God bringing people into the earth that he picks and chooses, with no chance of salvation. This is exactly what a friend of mine once said to me.

Everyone is without excuse the Bible says. Also the Bible says Jesus is the only way. You can not get there by one of the many Hindu god's or the god of Muslims. We can try to use our own flawed thinking in this matter but instead we should always go to the word of God like the Berans did to see what it has to say. We must have faith that God is a just God and has a bigger grasp of the entire picture we call life then we do. So let us not contradict what he has told us.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

[No Swansong]

Actually I was not brought up Christian. In my home "Christian" or "Born Again" was a punchline not a noun or pronoun. I believe that the main problem here is that you are humanizing God. God is not human and what may seem fair or just to us simply may or may not truly be just or fair.

I have no problem with believing that some of us are elect but not all of us. Your question poses no problem to me as Scripture makes clear that not all will come to salvation. Paul speaks of those with no knowledge as becoming a law unto themselves. What exactly that means I should let better apologists answer but I will state that for those who hear the Gospel and reject it, regardless of their "upbringing etc." they are utterly and hopelessly lost.

[BigNorsk]

Hi again everyone. Thank you for those who responded to my previous question about fundamentalist belief and Hell.

Many of you emphatically stated that without acceptance of the literal and historical Jesus Christ, a person is condemned to Hell. So here is something that has bothered me for quite a long time.

I have lived long enough on this earth to know that we are all a product of various factors. We are a product of our parental upbringing, our society, our political system, our family, our culture and our experiences growing up. All these serve to shape who we are and what we become in adult life.

Part of that shaping of course is our personal beliefs, values and convictions. But I am convinced that regardless how any person claims to base their life and values on any particular "truth", religion or creed, that all the factors I mentioned previously also influeces the same.

So my question is simple: As many of you claim emphatically the need for acceptance of Jesus, can any one of you absolutely emphatically give me an iron clad guarantee that if you happened to be born and raised into a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, non religious or atheist family etc, that you would today be a Christian?

To me, I see it relatively easy to be dogmatic about Christianity when living in a predominantly Christian nation and raised by Christian parents, attending a Christian school. I know that this is my case. My point previously is that many, if not all, Christians are not Christians just because of personal convictions, but because of influence and rearing by parents, family etc.

I honestly don't know what I would believe today if I was raised in a different culture with different parents. I could not give a guarantee I would believe in Jesus if I was raised differently.

How about the rest of you?

Well I don't know why you would think that is so difficult.

Clearly the relationship of your parents to God does indeed have an influence, while people are saved one person at a time, it is not a worthless thing to have a family that is Christian.

For instance: 1Co 7:14 NET.
(14) For the unbelieving husband is sanctified because of the wife, and the unbelieving wife because of her husband. Otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

Now does it absolutely guarantee you salvation if your parents are Christian, no, of course not. But when one is raised in a Christian home one here's God's word and one experiences the gospel in the sacraments. Since God has chosen at this time to work through means, that improves your chances so to speak. For as the Bible says, how are they to believe if they have not heard?

Now God does reveal himself to a certain degree through creation, that is called general revelation. But it's normally not held that one can be saved through general revelation. It seems that people can pretty well get the law, since many times people have come up with moral systems that are really pretty good. But the law doesn't save, it condemns, and no one has come up with the gospel without scripture.

But the idea that people never hear about Jesus at all is basically unscriptural as well. You ask them they might say they've never heard but really the truth is they never listened to what they heard. For instance Christmas has become something that is really throughout most of the world, at least talking about Christmas or knowing about it even among those who do not celebrate it. So people do hear, but the children of Christians certainly hear more and they hear it as fact, not as some myth or something.

Maybe you haven't been exposed to those Christians who teach from a Covenant standpoint. That is certainly more Biblical than the many different flavors of dispensationalism mixed with ultra individualism that is rampant today, for instance you might notice that your Bible is probably divided into the Old Testament and New Testament, testament is another word for covenant. We shouldn't go overboard in that because certainly the gospel can be found in the Old Testament and law can be found in the New, but that is indeed the basic division of God's revelation.

So anyway, you aren't saved because of your parents, but having Christian parents is not a worthless thing. It might sound like a contradiction but it's really not, it can be a problem for strict double predestination people but they usually resolve it with having God control who are your parents if you are going to be saved or some other rationalization.

Marv

[Albion]

But I am convinced that regardless how any person claims to base their life and values on any particular "truth", religion or creed, that all the factors I mentioned previously also influeces the same.

So my question is simple: As many of you claim emphatically the need for acceptance of Jesus, can any one of you absolutely emphatically give me an iron clad guarantee that if you happened to be born and raised into a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, non religious or atheist family etc, that you would today be a Christian?

No. How does that affect the question? (answer: it doesn't)

I honestly don't know what I would believe today if I was raised in a different culture with different parents. I could not give a guarantee I would believe in Jesus if I was raised differently.

How about the rest of you?

For myself--and because you asked--the problem there is that you have reversed the normal and necessary order of coming to one's convictions. You posit "who can know" as the situation with mankind...and then attempt to harmonize Christianity with that concept you received from your socialization. Remember that point? Yes, it is the one you yourself made (We are what we are thanks to parenting, etc. so how can we be sure Christianity is right and not Buddhism, for example).

It works both ways. You bring your question and doubts to us BECAUSE of having been socialized in the same way that went into wondering why this religion and not another.

What you need to do is evaluate the religion as it presents itself, then decided if it is true or not. Do not mix in what modern Western society would say God should be or do.

Then ask about what IT--the faith--says about those who do not have the faith.

If you are not persuaded that the faith of Christ is true, it follows that you won't be moved by what it says of non-believers. But if you do conclude that it is true, how can you second-guess what it says?

[lismore]

I honestly don't know what I would believe today if I was raised in a different culture with different parents. I could not give a guarantee I would believe in Jesus if I was raised differently.

How about the rest of you?

:wave:

The bible answers your question:

Acts 17: 26

From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

No-one is born anywhere by chance.
God is close to each one of us and wants us to reach out to him.

As Jesus said:

John 15:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last.

Chosen and appointed. Relax, God is on the throne.


:wave:

[sageoffools]

One thing to keep in mind also.
Although it may seem unfair that people in other countries are going to Hell because they are being brought up under a false religion, it is absolutely true. The blame, however, does not fall on God, or even totally on them.
Throughout the Bible the command is given by God for us to take the Gospel to the entire world. He has also commanded that the Gospel be passed down through the generations.
Here is where a large part of the fault lies.
1. We, largely, have not and are not effectively spreading the Gospel all around this world.
2. Most, if not every part of the world has had the gospel brought to them at one time, the problem is that the ancestors chose to reject it, so it was not passed from generation to generation.
So essentially, for each person that dies not ever having heard the true gospel, some of their blood is on our hands and some is on the hands of their ancestors.

[Albion]

One thing to keep in mind also.
Although it may seem unfair that people in other countries are going to Hell because they are being brought up under a false religion, it is absolutely true. The blame, however, does not fall on God, or even totally on them.

There you have what really amounts to the heart of the issue. If God is God, he is entitled to do whatever he wants and judge however he intends to...and is not governed by our human, societal concepts of what is "fair."

[BlackSabb]

One thing to keep in mind also.
Although it may seem unfair that people in other countries are going to Hell because they are being brought up under a false religion, it is absolutely true. The blame, however, does not fall on God, or even totally on them.


Gosh, what an awful thing to say!!! Absolutely dreadful. Repulsive. People burning in Hell forever because they happened to be brought up under another religion through no fault of their own. And then you even say they may go to Hell even though "the blame, however, does not fall.....totally on them".

Ugh!!! Do you actually think about what you type? People burning in Hell and not even all their own fault. What sort of God do you worship?

No wonder with this sort of twisted philosophy the world is becoming increasing secular.

Throughout the Bible the command is given by God for us to take the Gospel to the entire world. He has also commanded that the Gospel be passed down through the generations.
Here is where a large part of the fault lies.
1. We, largely, have not and are not effectively spreading the Gospel all around this world.
2. Most, if not every part of the world has had the gospel brought to them at one time, the problem is that the ancestors chose to reject it, so it was not passed from generation to generation.
So essentially, for each person that dies not ever having heard the true gospel, some of their blood is on our hands and some is on the hands of their ancestors.


Yeah, I heard this type of philosophy after 10 years in the Pentecostal church. We have to desperately get the gospel out there in the world because every day people are dying and going to Hell because of ignorance. You would like the singer/musician Keith Green. He too blamed everyone in the world going to Hell because of Christians.

Have you any idea just how sick all this is? This is not Christianity, this is some diseased cult doctrine. Everywhere people burning alive forever and ever through no fault of their own and if they happen to be born into a country not Christian, well then, tough luck!

If this is Christianity as you claim, then I would renounce it. I don't want any part of doctrines like this.

I refuse to believe in a God like this.

My question is what if God decided for you to be born in a time or place without having a chance to hear of Jesus? What if God decided that you were to be born say 500 years ago in the land now known as America, well before whiteman came?

Would you accept going to Hell? I bet you wouldn't.

Gosh, I can't get over how sick some of your doctrines are. It's not much better than the words of David Koresh or Jim Jones.

[IamRedeemed]

Hi there, I just want to make one major distinction regarding the religions in other countries and that is that people are forced into those religions, not merely influenced by the nation they live in. Their physical lives are actually in danger if they do not comply. So, for them it isn't as though they choose to be a Muslim for instance. In fact, those that turn to Jesus are often killed or have to leave their homelands in search of refuge as they will be killed otherwise, in the most horrendous ways which should in itself speak volumes of the reality of Christ that people come to know Him and He is real, not imagined. The fact that they will die rather than deny Him and live, should be overwhelmingly perplexing to an unbeliever, enough to try to find out why. It has to be at the very least curious and a wonder to an unbeliever, atheist, agnostic etc.

As you know anyone attempting to give a tract to a Muslim gets an automatic death sentence.
But yet despite all of the opposition there are many many people around the world in Christ hating nations, coming to know Him as their Lord and Savior.

The arm of God is not short and He has reached and continues to reach people from all walks of life regardless of their religious or atheistic upbringings and/or societies. Even right now there is a rising portion of Iran for instance (since you specifically mentioned them) that has come to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and more and more being added to the Kingdom each day around the world. And He reaches them by all sorts of various means. The testimonies are limitless and some are quite fascinating.



I have 2 things to say regarding your response. Firstly, yes, it is possible to go to a belief system you were not raised in, as you yourself are an example. However, simple statistics show that far more people in this world are Christian, Buddhist, Muslim etc as a result of a religious upbringing. There will always be exceptions, but they are the odd ones out, and not the rule in general.

This is why for eg, Iran is a Muslim nation. All the parents of that nation train their children up into Islam, and hence the Islamic religion is continually perpetuated. For sure, there are a very small, insignificant amount that go against this general trend, but for the overwhelming majority, it holds true.


Secondly, you use yourself as an example that God "called you" into belief and his knowledge despite the fact that you had no instruction in him in your childhood.

You say, "but our creator is in charge of bringing to himself those he has chosen", and you use this as evidence by your own personal example, as you have being "brought to him" despite having no religious background.

The problem I have with this is what about the overwhelming majority of those in Iran, Iraq, India etc? Christianity is a minority in these and other countries. Therefore, by your argument, hardly any of those people are chosen by God to be brought unto himself.

And by your very own argument, it can be said that if God "is in charge" of bringing those who belong to him unto himself, there are only 2 logical conclusions: that hardly anyone in many nations of the earth are chosen by God to be brought unto himself, or that he is unable to bring those of his unto himself, as evident by the fact that many nations have a Christian minority only-in some cases extremely marginal.

And that to me just doesn't add up. To me, it just sounds like the luck of the draw where and when you were born that you will have a chance to hear of Jesus and be saved.

It just doesn't sound right to me.

[lismore]

Hi there, I just want to make one major distinction regarding the religions in other countries and that is that people are forced into those religions, not merely influenced by the nation they live in. Their physical lives are actually in danger if they do not comply.

Hi there:wave:

Thats a good point. LOts of these religions do persecute people who accept Christ and yet people are still coming to Christ in increasing numbers in these countries.

Here is a website sharing the testimonies of muslims who have found Jesus Christ as Lord and saviour:

http://muslimjourneytohope.com/

God Bless You:wave:

[Albion]

Gosh, what an awful thing to say!!! Absolutely dreadful. Repulsive. People burning in Hell forever because they happened to be brought up under another religion through no fault of their own. And then you even say they may go to Hell even though "the blame, however, does not fall.....totally on them".

Ugh!!! Do you actually think about what you type? People burning in Hell and not even all their own fault. What sort of God do you worship?

No wonder with this sort of twisted philosophy the world is becoming increasing secular.



Yeah, I heard this type of philosophy after 10 years in the Pentecostal church. We have to desperately get the gospel out there in the world because every day people are dying and going to Hell because of ignorance. You would like the singer/musician Keith Green. He too blamed everyone in the world going to Hell because of Christians.

Have you any idea just how sick all this is? This is not Christianity, this is some diseased cult doctrine. Everywhere people burning alive forever and ever through no fault of their own and if they happen to be born into a country not Christian, well then, tough luck!

If this is Christianity as you claim, then I would renounce it. I don't want any part of doctrines like this.

I refuse to believe in a God like this.

My question is what if God decided for you to be born in a time or place without having a chance to hear of Jesus? What if God decided that you were to be born say 500 years ago in the land now known as America, well before whiteman came?

Would you accept going to Hell? I bet you wouldn't.

Gosh, I can't get over how sick some of your doctrines are. It's not much better than the words of David Koresh or Jim Jones.

OK. You got to have your say. Now you can exit and take your unhappiness with God to a forum that is for those repulsed by the Bible. This forum is for fundamentalists.

[No Swansong]

At this point you are simply arguing. You may not do so on the Fundamentalist board unless you are indeed fundamentalist. Please desist. If you have legitimate questions there is an appropriate forum for that. But at this point you are just trying to start a fight and are breaking forum rules.

[sageoffools]

Gosh, what an awful thing to say!!! Absolutely dreadful. Repulsive. People burning in Hell forever because they happened to be brought up under another religion through no fault of their own. And then you even say they may go to Hell even though "the blame, however, does not fall.....totally on them".
Ugh!!! Do you actually think about what you type? People burning in Hell and not even all their own fault. What sort of God do you worship?
No wonder with this sort of twisted philosophy the world is becoming increasing secular.

Yeah, I heard this type of philosophy after 10 years in the Pentecostal church. We have to desperately get the gospel out there in the world because every day people are dying and going to Hell because of ignorance. You would like the singer/musician Keith Green. He too blamed everyone in the world going to Hell because of Christians.

Have you any idea just how sick all this is? This is not Christianity, this is some diseased cult doctrine. Everywhere people burning alive forever and ever through no fault of their own and if they happen to be born into a country not Christian, well then, tough luck!

If this is Christianity as you claim, then I would renounce it. I don't want any part of doctrines like this.

I refuse to believe in a God like this.

My question is what if God decided for you to be born in a time or place without having a chance to hear of Jesus? What if God decided that you were to be born say 500 years ago in the land now known as America, well before whiteman came?

Would you accept going to Hell? I bet you wouldn't.

Gosh, I can't get over how sick some of your doctrines are. It's not much better than the words of David Koresh or Jim Jones.

Gosh, you're right!
I've changed my mind, I now think that everyone can get to Heaven, whether they believe in Jesus or not. I mean, Jesus death on the cross was really just for people that grow up in America anyway, everyone else can get there by whatever way works best for them.
In fact, now that I think about what the Bible says Jesus himself said, in John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life, no American's come to the Father, but by me, but people that don't grow up in America can get there by some other way because that wouldn't be fair"

Alright, sorry for the sarcasm. I get a little upset when someone who claims to be a Christian says I believe a cult doctrine because I say what the Bible says and he doesn't like it.
So, if I grew up in another country that did not teach the Bible would I still go to Hell? If I never accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior, YES. Would I be happy about it? NO.
Actually, BlackSabb, you kinda missed the point. The point was that they had the Gospel at one time, but their ancestors did not believe it, so it was never passed down, which denied the current generation their opportunity to believe, which is why part of the blame falls on the previous generations.
Do I understand it all? not really. But I do know that it is what the Bible says, so if I believe the Bible, I must believe this truth.
So what DOES the Bible say about it?
First, a verse I already used:
John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father, but by me."
Galatians 2:21 "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
Romans 3:23-25 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation (or payment) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
Romans 1:18-22 & 28 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed unto them.For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient (or [I]things that are shameful)"

So I don't see anywhere where God says that people that grow up in different countries have a "Get out of Hell free" card. In fact, Galatians says that if we could get to Heaven by the law (by keeping the law, or being good) then Christ died for no reason.
If there was a different way to get to Heaven that people in other countries could use, then why have Jesus die at all, why not let us in America get to Heaven that way too?
We cannot all be right. If they say the only way to get to Heaven is by being good enough and others say that the only way to get to Heaven in by trusting Buddha or Mohammad and we say that the only way to get to Heaven is by trusting in Jesus, we cannot all have the only way. Either we are right or we are wrong. And I have done enough study and research confirming the validity of the Bible to be able to confidently put my faith and trust even in the parts of the Bible I don't understand. And again, if I truly believe the Bible, I must believe that others are wrong, whether I understand it all or not.
One more thought and then I will end this rather lengthy post. If we in the US were able to find a cure for AIDS, the ONLY cure, would we not have the responsibility to share that cure with the entire world? The problem with this is that you are saying that everyone that does not have OUR cure is going to die from their AIDS, despite what their swami or medicine man tells them and despite what they have been taught growing up. The cure is available, and people could be saved by it, the problem is that it is our job to take it to them, to give them that opportunity. If we do not reach them with that cure they are going to die, regardless of what country they were brought up in or what cures they believe really could heal them.
This is similar to the Gospel. We have the ONLY cure for eternity in Hell, and that cure is Jesus. Now it is our job to bring that cure to the rest of the world, regardless of where they have grown up, or what they have been taught in the past.

P.S. I DO like Keith Green.

[BigNorsk]

I refuse to believe in a God like this.


Seems to me you jumped the gun a bit like you had some preconceived notions, you contrast secular understanding with Christianity, but secular understanding is full of shared guilt.

For instance if you were the get away driver in a bank robbery and someone inside the bank shot and killed someone, you are guilty in the secular world of murder. Now you may plea bargain it away or something, but you are guilty of murder without ever pulling the trigger.

Note that the fact you have shared guilt doesn't free the other person of their guilt.

Do you refuse to believe in such a government? That's really the strange part of your statement.

Like it matters as far as God's existence whether or not you believe in him. Or that somehow whether or not you give your belief is some sort of threat against others.

I would suggest you quite threatening spiritual suicide. It isn't very becoming of you. God is God whether or not you believe. Your threatened refusal to believe threatens no one to the extent you threaten yourself.

God doesn't change based on what you are willing to believe.

I think you probably reacted out of a presumption of what you were being told, but the fact that you throw a temper tantrum like a little child doesn't really mean much to anyone here. The standard is not you, it is the Bible. I would suggest that if you want to change the minds of fundamentalists that you use something that would be recognized, the bible.

I'm sorry you apparently had a bad experience in a Pentecostal group but I have no way of knowing if they were off or if you just refused to admit when you were wrong. It doesn't much matter, but if you are forever going to hold this group up as the reason every Christian is wrong, then please don't waste people's time. There is no way for people to speak to the practices of that group. All they have to go on is what you say, and there is no assurance that what you say they teach and do is even correct. Many people sit in congregations and misunderstand what is said.

Marv

[VCViking]

double post

[VCViking]

So my question is simple: As many of you claim emphatically the need for acceptance of Jesus, can any one of you absolutely emphatically give me an iron clad guarantee that if you happened to be born and raised into a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, non religious or atheist family etc, that you would today be a Christian?


Romans 1:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=1&verse=20&version=9&context=verse)
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[Iosias]

I honestly don't know what I would believe today if I was raised in a different culture with different parents. I could not give a guarantee I would believe in Jesus if I was raised differently.

God's purpose in election works through the lines of continued generations and so the fact that some will never hear of Christ demonstrates that God never intended to save them.

Have a read of this (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%203/section_08.htm). :)

[IamRedeemed]

Hi!:wave:
Yep, they sure do and yep they sure are, Glory to God!
Thanks for that link! I love to hear their wonderful testimonies!
I will be sure to add that link to my favorites and check it out.
God bless brother!

:pink:

Hi there:wave:

Thats a good point. LOts of these religions do persecute people who accept Christ and yet people are still coming to Christ in increasing numbers in these countries.

Here is a website sharing the testimonies of muslims who have found Jesus Christ as Lord and saviour:

http://muslimjourneytohope.com/

God Bless You:wave:

[VCViking]

God's purpose in election works through the lines of continued generations and so the fact that some will never hear of Christ demonstrates that God never intended to save them.

Have a read of this (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%203/section_08.htm). :)


That is the false teaching of calvinism.

[VCViking]

John 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


John 3:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


World is not the elect. It's everyone. He died for everyone, not only the elect.

[IisJustMe]

God's purpose in election works through the lines of continued generations and so the fact that some will never hear of Christ demonstrates that God never intended to save them.This is a heresy of the first order, and how you can say this in light of such verses such as Romans 2:14-16 baffles me.Have a read of this (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%203/section_08.htm). :)You expect anyone skeptical of Calvinism to accept the "arguments" of the stauchest of the staunch Calvinists, such as Gill, Pink, Payson, et al? That's like trotting out Gail Ripllinger as a "convincing argument" for KJV Only "doctrine." Oh, I forgot ... you've done that, too.

[Albion]

That is the false teaching of calvinism.

You, as an individual are free to approve of or disdain Calvin's teachings, just as everyone else here has his own view. There are Fundamentalists on both sides of that matter and in the middle, too.

IOW, there's no point in mentioning it when the OP didn't call for a debate on it...not unless we are all in need of knowing where you personally stand.

[No Swansong]

This is a heresy of the first order, and how you can say this in light of such verses such as Romans 2:14-16 baffles me.You expect anyone skeptical of Calvinism to accept the "arguments" of the stauchest of the staunch Calvinists, such as Gill, Pink, Payson, et al? That's like trotting out Gail Ripllinger as a "convincing argument" for KJV Only "doctrine." Oh, I forgot ... you've done that, too.
Actually I have never known our friend AV1611 to ever expect us to just believe someone. Almost every reference he makes is replete with well exegeted Scriptural references. You may not agree with him or them but rarely does he just expect anyone to just believe anything without evidence.

[IisJustMe]

Actually I have never known our friend AV1611 to ever expect us to just believe someone. Almost every reference he makes is replete with well exegeted Scriptural references. You may not agree with him or them but rarely does he just expect anyone to just believe anything without evidence.I'm sure his efforts are well intended, but Gill, Pink, Payson and others of the "ultra-Calvinist" bent emphasizing limited atonement in direct contradiction of the Bible are not valid citations to support the view. Like the students who abrogated Calvin's original work and twisted what the great man actually believed into the nonsense they published after his death, this trio and others like them exhibited pride, arrogance, and self-righteousness in claiming for themselves as "the saved" an election that God does not practice nor teach in His word. "Election" is the intent of God to conform those who believe in Jesus as their atoning sacrifice into His image. The "election" therefore is after the fact of salvation, which available to all. And that happens to be what Calvin believed also.

[No Swansong]

I haven't finished reading "The Institutes" so I cannot comment upon the truthfulness of most of your post concerning whether Calvin's words were twisted or not, but the issue I was commenting on was your unkind response to AV1611 who has been nothing but respectful of everyone on this and every other board I have experienced him on.

[Albion]

I'm sure his efforts are well intended, but Gill, Pink, Payson and others of the "ultra-Calvinist" bent emphasizing limited atonement in direct contradiction of the Bible are not valid citations to support the view. Like the students who abrogated Calvin's original work and twisted




It doesn't matter!

Calvinism is a much more complicated interpretation of the Bible than a few words pro or con can handle here, and whether it is heresy or the right interpretation is:

1. irrelevant to Fundamentalism, and
2. a matter of personal opinion.

The place for venting belongs on the Reformed forum or perhaps the OBOB forum where everyone will agree with you and make you feel vindicated.

[IisJustMe]

Ooops! Wrong button again

[IisJustMe]

I haven't finished reading "The Institutes" so I cannot comment upon the truthfulness of most of your post concerning whether Calvin's words were twisted or not, but the issue I was commenting on was your unkind response to AV1611 who has been nothing but respectful of everyone on this and every other board I have experienced him on.It was, rather, a statement of what I believe to be fact (which should perhaps be more properly framed as "opinion") of his statement, i.e. ...God's purpose in election works through the lines of continued generations and so the fact that some will never hear of Christ demonstrates that God never intended to save them.... which is, in my opinion, erroneous. The Bible simply does not teach the limited atonement "taught" in The Institutes but rather, universal atonement of Christ which is realized only by those who receive His gift of sacrifice on the cross with a true and contrite heart.

[No Swansong]

It was, rather, a statement of what I believe to be fact (which should perhaps be more properly framed as "opinion") of his statement, i.e. ...... which is, in my opinion, erroneous. The Bible simply does not teach the limited atonement "taught" in The Institutes but rather, universal atonement of Christ which is realized only by those who receive His gift of sacrifice on the cross with a true and contrite heart.

Ok I'll take your word for it, it just seemed like an unkind comment to me and thought I would come to AV1611's defense. I apologize for falsely accusing you my friend.

[IisJustMe]

Ok I'll take your word for it, it just seemed like an unkind comment to me and thought I would come to AV1611's defense. I apologize for falsely accusing you my friend.Not a problem, and while I'm at it, AV, if you took offense, I do apologize. My statements "occasionally" come across a bit heavy handed ... like I was carrying a brick! :eek: