Are you okay with this type of statement?

[BlackSabb]

Hi everyone. For many years in different types of churches I've attended, there has always been some type of missions program in each church. The "great commission" has always been emphasised as part of that program, to spread the gospel of Jesus. And many times, missions would be in countries where Christianity is a minority or barely reached.

The pastor or missions leader I have many times heard say something like this, "we have to proclaim the gospel in Iran, Iraq, India etc, because every day people are dying in those countries and going to Hell". So in other words, it is assumed that almost the whole population of those countries are going to Hell.

I say this also because I what I found out about Mother Teresa. Apparently, she was not dogmatic about the need for Christian conversion, (which took me by surprise when I did a little research). Apparently, she was content if her good works inspired others to be a better person within their own religion, whether it be Christian, Hindu, Muslim etc. Here is a website link:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a013htMotherTeresa.htm

Have a read of paragraphs 5-8, (very small paragraphs).

Here is another link just to show this is not a one off:

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/mothther.htm

Go about two thirds down this page, and read the very short paragraph after the heading: Other notable quotes from "Mother" Teresa (12/4/89 Time, pp.11 & 13).

Now also, I am definately, most definately, NOT a supporter or believer of televangelists. But again, I find it interesting that Joel Osteen has been interviewed saying that he is "uncomfortable" saying that someone is going to Hell because they have been a Muslim, Hindu etc. He insists that only God really knows their heart, and that man is just unable to say such things. Here is a youtube link to this interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ

It only runs for 1:09.

The same goes for, incidentally, when the pastors talk about "all those" Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons that are all going to Hell. Now don't get me wrong. I definately don't agree with their teachings, but again, are you comfortable saying all the membership of these 2 denominations are automatically going to Hell?

So in a nutshell, are you comfortable to say that wholesale populations of Indians, Iranians, etc plus those those of unorthodox Christian denominations are going to Hell?

[No Swansong]

I am comfortable with saying unless one is born again he will not see the kingdom of God. I will not make doctrinal statements about exactly how one is born again (born of the Spirit) that is better left to stronger Theologians than I but Scripture makes it clear not everyone will be saved, for whatever reason. I am not surprised to read about Mother Theresa she did come from a Hindu environment which basically teaches that there are several ways to God. She may not have personally believed that but it is a pervasive thought in India.

[DesertScroll]

I feel very comfortable proclaiming that there is only one way and that Jesus is that way, the only truth (John 14:6).

But what dooes it say? "The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. Rom 10:8-10

Is it possible that someone who is in a different religion (not a Christian church) could be saved? Yes, but only if they believe and confess Jesus as the only way to be saved. Which of course makes them a Christian or follower of Christ. They would feel very uncomfortable in another religion, because there are good works viewed by man as good and then there is the the good work of God and the two views are not equal.
Then they said to him, "What must we do to perform the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." John 6:28,29

When you proclaim Jesus, when you give testimony of the Christ, you are not telling a person that he is a good person to follow or even the most prefered way. He is the only way. Part of the message of the good news is that:
There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12

If your proclamation of the Gospel doesn't include this you have a problem.

So yes, I can definitively say that if a person does not believe and confess Jesus the Christ as the only savior/way, then they are not saved. That isn't being judgemental, that is proclaiming the gospel (telling it like it is).
"Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God". John 3:17,18

There are not good works (plural) that men can do in relation to God, there is only one good work, to believe in Jesus. Everything else is a waste.

[kobuk]

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This sermon by veteran Fundamentalist preacher Henry Mahan covers the subject matter of this thread beautifully. Anyone who has been saved has also been chosen to be saved since before time began.

We can compare the doctrines of others to see if they line up with Scripture. As did the Bereans when even the Apostle Paul preached to them in person. (imagine that scene)

If there is no harmony there with the Scriptures, those teachers of the false doctrine are at present not saved if they do not have any Scriptural basis to their claim to be saved. However. There are many ex-mormons who are eventually saved. Years ago they were not saved yet, but were rather pre-destined to be saved nontheless many years later. Logically then, we have to qualify our statements. We could say that all mormons who persist in their false religion today, until the day they die, are lost and going to hell. We can't possibly read the future of any one individule cult member. So we must qualify our statements accordingly.

Just good logic. I don't claim to be a scholar or expert. I'm sure a much clearer and more Scripturally accurate way exists to express the principle.

[Vambram]

So in a nutshell, are you comfortable to say that wholesale populations of Indians, Iranians, etc plus those those of unorthodox Christian denominations are going to Hell?



The New Testament is extremely clear on more than just a few passages of Scripture in saying that the Son of God, our Savior the Lord Jesus Christ IS the ONE and ONLY way, and Name given among men whereby a lost sinner can have salvation and forgiveness of Sin by the Grace of God through faith. Like the others on this thread have stated, I believe that those whom die without knowing and believing in Christ as their personal Savior indeed spend eternity in punishment and damnation.
Despite how good, and well meaning of a person that Mother Teresa was, if she truly believed what she said, then without a hesitation of doubt, I stand up with the Scriptures in hand, and proclaim that she is incorrect.

[IisJustMe]

So in a nutshell, are you comfortable to say that wholesale populations of Indians, Iranians, etc plus those those of unorthodox Christian denominations are going to Hell?I am only "comfortable" saying that someone who does not know Jesus is God, born of a virgin, died on the cross and arose on the third day to defeat sin and death on our behalf -- thus becoming our substitutionary sacrifice -- is going to hell. I cannot know what a person "knows" based solely on where he or she lives, works, how they dress, or with whom they associate or even how they worship. That knowledge can only come with a relationship and acquaintance with that person, and many people surprise me once that is established.

But remaining in an apostate denomination or a false religion is not a condemnation for a believer. When I was building houses a long time ago, I met a man who was prominent and well-known in the community. I was a new Christian, and I found in talking to him that he and I saw things much alike, though I knew him to attend the Catholic church across the street from the Baptist church where I was saved.

I asked him one day how he could remain there, knowing their doctrine was at best questionable. He told me that, amongst his congregation ("parish," as they call them) his and maybe 50 other families held the same approach to faith in Christ, which today I still have to describe as a "saving faith." He said if he and the others left ...

... how would the others come to know the truth?

Too often we Christians are offensive, arrogant and abusive of other denominations, congregations, and faiths that we see as false, misguided or errant. That approach wins no one to Christ.

I wonder (though of course, never having met her, I have no way of knowing) if Mother Teresa was not taking that same approach? Could it be that she realized that a blatant adverse statement flying in the face of the culture in which she was an intruder would drive those in that culture away from Christ? Obviously she made many, many statements indicating she had her focus on the wrong things and failed to understand God's word. But even so, to believe she did not know Jesus is not a valid conclusion based on the quotes on those web sites, particularly taken out of context as they obviously are.

The question is, should we not be as sensitive ourselves when bringing the truth of Jesus Christ into the rest of the world? Can an "in-your-face" challenge such as many on this very forum seem to prefer really have an eternal effect? Other than, as I see it, driving the recipient of that challenge further from salvation than they were before?

[amadeus2]

Hi everyone. For many years in different types of churches I've attended, there has always been some type of missions program in each church. The "great commission" has always been emphasised as part of that program, to spread the gospel of Jesus. And many times, missions would be in countries where Christianity is a minority or barely reached.

The pastor or missions leader I have many times heard say something like this, "we have to proclaim the gospel in Iran, Iraq, India etc, because every day people are dying in those countries and going to Hell". So in other words, it is assumed that almost the whole population of those countries are going to Hell.

I say this also because I what I found out about Mother Teresa. Apparently, she was not dogmatic about the need for Christian conversion, (which took me by surprise when I did a little research). Apparently, she was content if her good works inspired others to be a better person within their own religion, whether it be Christian, Hindu, Muslim etc. Here is a website link:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a013htMotherTeresa.htm

Have a read of paragraphs 5-8, (very small paragraphs).

Here is another link just to show this is not a one off:

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/mothther.htm

Go about two thirds down this page, and read the very short paragraph after the heading: Other notable quotes from "Mother" Teresa (12/4/89 Time, pp.11 & 13).

Now also, I am definately, most definately, NOT a supporter or believer of televangelists. But again, I find it interesting that Joel Osteen has been interviewed saying that he is "uncomfortable" saying that someone is going to Hell because they have been a Muslim, Hindu etc. He insists that only God really knows their heart, and that man is just unable to say such things. Here is a youtube link to this interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ

It only runs for 1:09.

The same goes for, incidentally, when the pastors talk about "all those" Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons that are all going to Hell. Now don't get me wrong. I definately don't agree with their teachings, but again, are you comfortable saying all the membership of these 2 denominations are automatically going to Hell?

So in a nutshell, are you comfortable to say that wholesale populations of Indians, Iranians, etc plus those those of unorthodox Christian denominations are going to Hell?

You are asking for the opinion of fallible people about the ways that other people live or serve God. I know what I believe and you have seen here some answers from other people. My answer is that I cannot speak for God or for other people.

Whether or not I am comfortable with their situation doesn't really matter to them or to God unless it impacts how I am to be judged by Him and His Word. Will my answer make a big differene to you? Will it make the difference between you being saved ornot being saved? Very unlike that it will...so I will simply quote the following scripture:

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

[BlackSabb]

You are asking for the opinion of fallible people about the ways that other people live or serve God. I know what I believe and you have seen here some answers from other people. My answer is that I cannot speak for God or for other people.

Whether or not I am comfortable with their situation doesn't really matter to them or to God unless it impacts how I am to be judged by Him and His Word. Will my answer make a big differene to you? Will it make the difference between you being saved ornot being saved? Very unlike that it will...so I will simply quote the following scripture:

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12


Will it make a difference to me personally? You are quite mistaken, it will make a big difference to me as I am in the process of working out what I believe again, all over again.

In the last 6 years, I have been very hurt and abused, more than once, in the church. Not only have I been out of fellowship now, but I haven't accepted everything anymore that I used to believe. Since those hurts and offenses, I have questioned things I never questioned before, such as the infallibility of the Bible, (which I don't believe in anymore-I'm not seeing I reject the Bible outright, but I don't believe it to be the "perfect" infallible word of God).

I grew up all my life being indoctrinated that Jesus is the only way and that all others such as Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and unorthodox Christian denominations are Hell bound. But again, since my offenses, I have questioned in my mind all of this.

So yes, these replies will help me a lot.

[No Swansong]

BlackSaab;

Thank you for honestly sharing your doubts about faith right now. May I recommend that you start with some basic apologetics? I would first recommend two very short books one by John Stott entitled "Basic Christianity" and one by C.S. Lewis entitled "Mere Christianity". Another little longer work which is worth the read is Lee Strobel's "A Case for Christ" and his "A Case For Faith". Be assured of my prayers.

[IisJustMe]

I'm not seeing I reject the Bible outright, but I don't believe it to be the "perfect" infallible word of God).Is it that you do not accept the Bible as the perfect infallible word (which it most assuredly is) or is it that you have failed to see those who call themselves "God's people' live out their faith as the Bible tells us we must?

I suspect it is the latter, though certainly I could be wrong. Please keep in mind, those who say they follow Jesus are still flesh, and still sin, intentionally or not. So please don't doubt the word of God because the people of God can't seem to grasp its teaching in their daily walk. Another great book, in addition to the ones "jtbdad" gave you, is "The 10 Dumbest Thinks Christians Do" by Mark Attebury

[BlackSabb]

Is it that you do not accept the Bible as the perfect infallible word (which it most assuredly is) or is it that you have failed to see those who call themselves "God's people' live out their faith as the Bible tells us we must?

I suspect it is the latter, though certainly I could be wrong. Please keep in mind, those who say they follow Jesus are still flesh, and still sin, intentionally or not. So please don't doubt the word of God because the people of God can't seem to grasp its teaching in their daily walk. Another great book, in addition to the ones "jtbdad" gave you, is "The 10 Dumbest Thinks Christians Do" by Mark Attebury



Yes and no to your question. For sure, I fell out of fellowship after the number of incidents I experienced. And yes, I will freely admit that I did a lot of internet research on Christianity, and visited many anti-Christian sites that questioned the validity of Christian teachings and the Bible.

And some things now in the Bible I have a very hard time accepting. Like for eg, the story about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Specifically, about the 2 angels that boarded for the night in Lot's house. The part that bothers me is when the people were demanding that they release the 2 men to have their way with them.

And Lot refused and then offered to give the people his 2 daughters.

Yuk!! I'm really very very sorry to question something in the Bible, but that disturbs me greatly. I find that unthinkable and outrageous. Would any of you give your daughters to a sexaully charged unruly mob to do with them what they please?

I don't think so. I'm sorry, but things like that and other things makes me question the nature of the Bible.

Sorry, I'm not meaning to inflame anyone or offend or deride, I'm just being honest.

[IisJustMe]

The part that bothers me is when the people were demanding that they release the 2 men to have their way with them. ... And Lot refused and then offered to give the people his 2 daughters ... Yuk!! I'm really very very sorry to question something in the Bible, but that disturbs me greatly. I find that unthinkable and outrageous. Would any of you give your daughters to a sexaully charged unruly mob to do with them what they please?You're right, that was horrid. But we must never forget that the people in the Bible are no more perfect than we are. Lot had his heart in the right place in defending God's angels (who, let's face it, wouldn't have needed defending had the mob tried to take them) but his execution was badly off. Then again, so was his whole life. He lamented the sin around him, but he apparently did not despise it enough to remove he and his family from it before it was utterly necessary.

Moses was declared the "savior" of Israel, but his sin of unmanaged anger kept him from abiding in the land promised his people by God. He angrily struck a rock he was merely to speak to, the rock representing Christ. The Rock had already been struck at Mirabah, and it was necessary once struck (crucified) to but speak to it. This is a powerful image of Christ's one-time sacrifice for all, and Moses' punishment resulted from his failure to grasp the nature of that sacrifice, thinking it necessary (or simply out of anger, lashing out at it) to strike it again.

No one is perfect. God's people included. We think the right things but do the wrong ones in our own power, volition and strength rather than consulting our Lord and seeking His will for us in that situation. Such was it with Lot. Such will it be for you and me before this week is a couple days old. Perhaps not to the level of Lot's failure, but in failure nonetheless. Yet will we endure.

[BlackSabb]

You're right, that was horrid. But we must never forget that the people in the Bible are no more perfect than we are. Lot had his heart in the right place in defending God's angels (who, let's face it, wouldn't have needed defending had the mob tried to take them) but his execution was badly off. Then again, so was his whole life. True, he lamented to sin around him, but he apparently did not despise it enough to remove he and his family from it before it was utterly necessary.




I'll give this to you, that answer makes a lot sense to me. It does help me understand. I tend to think that anything in the Bible that anyone does is supposed to be "endorsed" by God as being the right action.

I honestly never thought of it like this. That this simply was Lot's personal, misguided action, and not a ringing endorsement by God of what should be done in a situation like that.

Thanks.

[IisJustMe]

Thanks.:thumbsup:

[amadeus2]

Will it make a difference to me personally? You are quite mistaken, it will make a big difference to me as I am in the process of working out what I believe again, all over again.

In the last 6 years, I have been very hurt and abused, more than once, in the church. Not only have I been out of fellowship now, but I haven't accepted everything anymore that I used to believe. Since those hurts and offenses, I have questioned things I never questioned before, such as the infallibility of the Bible, (which I don't believe in anymore-I'm not seeing I reject the Bible outright, but I don't believe it to be the "perfect" infallible word of God).

I grew up all my life being indoctrinated that Jesus is the only way and that all others such as Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and unorthodox Christian denominations are Hell bound. But again, since my offenses, I have questioned in my mind all of this.

So yes, these replies will help me a lot.

My son left the church because people hurt him as did my daughter. This has occurred to others I have known personally as well.

Look at the Christian church world and you will se a multitude of denominations and non-denominations with a multitude of variations in their doctrines and their rituals. How can you know where the Truth is or even if any of them have the Truth?

You can find the Truth which stood before Pontius Pilate in the flesh, but was not recognized by Pilate. How? by asking sincerely of God and pursuing it through His Word.

What is God 's Word? It is NOT simple the written Bible. The Bible is similar to all other books in that it consists of pages made from dead trees and very dead ink. There is potential in its pages, but the potential requires God's Spiirit to be brought to Life.

The Bible is not infallible, but the Word of God is. If we read the Bible or hear the Bible taught or preached we can receive the Word of God if the Spirit is in us to bring it to Life.

You are searching for logical answers and why some can give you logice for God and the Bible, others can give logic against it. If you depend on your reason alone you will find the Truth no matter how hard or how long you search for it. It's not a matter of how much brain matter you have or how hard you study. If it were those with the doctorates in theology they would have the closest walks with God. They do not. The ones with the closest walks with God are the ones who start at the bottom and always return to the bottom when they are seeking Truth.

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11


"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:3 [The poor in spirit are those that are not full of themselves. They admit they have nothing are surrender themselves to God's mercy.]
(The kingdom of heaven is God's gift to those who please Him.)

"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." Matt 5:5 [The meek are simliar in that they are not full of themselves, but they lower themselves to the bottom of things.]
(The earth we inherit is our own body [made from dust of the earth] of which we now only stewards or caretakers since it does not belong to us)

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Matt 18:3-4

The easiest way to live for God is with everything that you have. The hardest way to live for God is by trying to keep one foot in the world while trying to serve Him.

In other words, 'It is easy to live for God hard, but it is hard to live for God easy'.

Do not live for God by for anyon but for Him. Your purpose in serving God is not to please yourself or anyone else. Your purpose in serving must always be to please God. If that is always your purpose and you put all that you have into it surrendering yourself completely to Him alone, He will not fail you and will take through in Him.

You have serious doubts, but no man can take away those doubts. Only God can do that when you trust Him.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

[No Swansong]

I have to disagree with one comment from our friend Amadeus above. As fundamentalists and even stated in our rules we do adhere to the belief that the Bible is infallible.

As has been shown the Bible clearly shows that we are fleshly human beings. David had many wives and concubines, that doesn't mean God approved, Paul killed Christians before he became one. Lots daughters got him drunk and had sex with him. These are examples of human failings which help to show us the need of a savior.

[Project 86]

I have to disagree with one comment from our friend Amadeus above. As fundamentalists and even stated in our rules we do adhere to the belief that the Bible is infallible.

As has been shown the Bible clearly shows that we are fleshly human beings. David had many wives and concubines, that doesn't mean God approved, Paul killed Christians before he became one. Lots daughters got him drunk and had sex with him. These are examples of human failings which help to show us the need of a savior.

:amen:

[lismore]

I say this also because I what I found out about Mother Teresa. Apparently, she was not dogmatic about the need for Christian conversion, (which took me by surprise when I did a little research). Apparently, she was content if her good works inspired others to be a better person within their own religion, whether it be Christian, Hindu, Muslim etc. Here is a website link:.........................


It doesnt matter what Mother Theresa said it only matter what the lord said. Someone has already posted John 14:6. Jesus said he was the only way, no religion takes anyone to heaven, only Christ and salvation is not by 'good religious works' but by grace received by faith (Eph 2:8-10).


So in a nutshell, are you comfortable to say that wholesale populations of Indians, Iranians, etc plus those those of unorthodox Christian denominations are going to Hell?

Indians? iranians? After CHina India is the country with the largest number of Christians in the world. The gospel is going out In Iran today, Iranian churches are being persecuted today, there are more people getting saved today in Iran now than at any other time, but even in past years the gospel was going out in all these places. Doubting Thomas was the first missionary to India, Iranians were saved on the day of pentecost. here is a very famous missionary to India and iran:
http://chi.gospelcom.net/GLIMPSEF/Glimpses/glmps096.shtml


Jesus told his followers to preach the good news to all creation, because his name is the only name by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12).

:wave:

[lismore]

And Lot refused and then offered to give the people his 2 daughters.

Yuk!! I'm really very very sorry to question something in the Bible, but that disturbs me greatly. I find that unthinkable and outrageous. Would any of you give your daughters to a sexaully charged unruly mob to do with them what they please?



Let me see, you question the bible because Lot wanted his daughters to have sexual relations with the people of soddom in preference to two angels having sexual relations with the people of soddom?

Here is the big question, Lot's daughters were living in that place, what were they going to do to get married? They would have to marry one of those soddomites if they wanted to get married wouldnt they? DO you think the soddomites practised monogamy?

The big question is what was Lot doing living with those people in the first place?

[arunma]

Hi everyone. For many years in different types of churches I've attended, there has always been some type of missions program in each church. The "great commission" has always been emphasised as part of that program, to spread the gospel of Jesus. And many times, missions would be in countries where Christianity is a minority or barely reached.

The pastor or missions leader I have many times heard say something like this, "we have to proclaim the gospel in Iran, Iraq, India etc, because every day people are dying in those countries and going to Hell". So in other words, it is assumed that almost the whole population of those countries are going to Hell.

I might take issue with this, but not because people say that non-Christians will go to hell. The Bible says very clearly that anyone who does not proclaim Jesus as his Lord will be condemned to hell. Therefore it is extremely important that we reach the unreached, lest they perish in their sins.

My only issue here (and it is a small one) is that there are just as many people here in America who don't know Jesus as their Lord. At least Hindus in India know that they have no faith in Jesus Christ. Many pagans at our own doorsteps think that they are saved merely because their parents took them to church when they were kids.

[BlackSabb]

Let me see, you question the bible because Lot wanted his daughters to have sexual relations with the people of soddom in preference to two angels having sexual relations with the people of soddom?




Oh, I don't mean to be rude, but this response is just plain stupid! Lot wanted to throw his daughters outside his home to a ravenous, wild and sexaully charged mob. That's a completetly different slant to what you claim.

This is exactly the type of thing that puts me off Christianity and Christian fellowship. The way you twist an obvious piece of scripture, something that is quite horrid and dark, and contort it into something quite innocent, "oh deary me, I want my daughters to know the joy of sexual relations of a man, praise God".

Yuk!!!

[lismore]

Oh, I don't mean to be rude, but this response is just plain stupid! Lot wanted to throw his daughters outside his home to a ravenous, wild and sexaully charged mob. That's a completetly different slant to what you claim.


Because the homosexual mob wanted the angels thrown out to have sex with them:

Genesis 19:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=19&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

It doesnt say God approved of his actions, all it is is a record of what Lot wanted to do.



This is exactly the type of thing that puts me off Christianity and Christian fellowship. The way you twist an obvious piece of scripture, something that is quite horrid and dark, and contort it into something quite innocent, "oh deary me, I want my daughters to know the joy of sexual relations of a man, praise God".

Yuk!!!

I didnt say I approved of what Lot wanted to do! As I said, the problem was that he shouldnt have been living in that place with so many bad people. The bible just records what happened, God's take on the whole thing is when he wipes the Soddomites out................so there you have God's view on it.

Besides, if you arent interested in Christianity or Christian fellowship, why are you on a Christian forum?

:D

[WarEagle]

I say this also because I what I found out about Mother Teresa. Apparently, she was not dogmatic about the need for Christian conversion, (which took me by surprise when I did a little research). Apparently, she was content if her good works inspired others to be a better person within their own religion, whether it be Christian, Hindu, Muslim etc.

In all fairness to Theresa (sorry, she's not my mother), it's true she held to some terrible theology, but is anything she believed really any worse than most other Roman Catholic doctrines?


Now also, I am definately, most definately, NOT a supporter or believer of televangelists.

That's too bad. There are some very good ones out there.

The same goes for, incidentally, when the pastors talk about "all those" Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons that are all going to Hell. Now don't get me wrong. I definately don't agree with their teachings, but again, are you comfortable saying all the membership of these 2 denominations are automatically going to Hell?

Yes, I'm fine with that. Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are relying on false doctrines and a false Christ for their salvation and the Bible very clearly tells us that if we don't have proper doctrine concerning the person and atoning work of Christ, then we're not saved.

So in a nutshell, are you comfortable to say that wholesale populations of Indians, Iranians, etc plus those those of unorthodox Christian denominations are going to Hell?

Yes. The Bible teaches that if you're not born again, you're going to Hell.

[WarEagle]

Oh, I don't mean to be rude, but this response is just plain stupid! Lot wanted to throw his daughters outside his home to a ravenous, wild and sexaully charged mob. That's a completetly different slant to what you claim.

This is exactly the type of thing that puts me off Christianity and Christian fellowship. The way you twist an obvious piece of scripture, something that is quite horrid and dark, and contort it into something quite innocent, "oh deary me, I want my daughters to know the joy of sexual relations of a man, praise God".

Yuk!!!

So then, because Lot did something you find distasteful, that turns you off to Christianity?

Like lismore said, this is a record of Lot's actions, not God's command or Christianity's teaching.

How does the fact that Lot did something you don't like negate the teachings of Christ in any way?

[BlackSabb]

So then, because Lot did something you find distasteful, that turns you off to Christianity?



It turns me off because when you talk to Christians about this verse, a lot of them support it and talk it about it as if it's some wondrous deed. It turns me off and sickens me to my stomach when Christians don't see how sick this is, and think it's justified and righteous.

"It must be right because it's in the Bible". Ugh!! That's about the mentality of a lot of Christians.

Offering to give your daughters to a violent, horny mob, to do with them anything they want, and violate them any way they want, is just not right. It's sick. What is wrong with some of you?

If you had a mob like this bashing on your doors and windows that wanted some dude in your home, would you offer to give your daughters to them in exchange?

Yeah, come to think of it, some of you most probably would. "Oh praise God" some of you would sing as you threw your daughters out to the mob.

[WarEagle]

It turns me off because when you talk to Christians about this verse, a lot of them support it and talk it about it as if it's some wondrous deed.

Given that, in twenty years as a Christian, I've never heard anyone say this, I find that statement a little hard to believe.

It turns me off and sickens me to my stomach when Christians don't see how sick this is, and think it's justified and righteous.

"It must be right because it's in the Bible". Ugh!! That's about the mentality of a lot of Christians.

As we've already pointed out to you, this isn't a teaching or a command, but an account of one man's actions.

I still don't understand why you're judging the teaching and work of Christ based on the actions of a man.

Yeah, come to think of it, some of you most probably would. "Oh praise God" some of you would sing as you threw your daughters out to the mob.

Are you sure you're a Christian? I really don't see much difference between the attitude of your post and the atheists who come here to mock God.

[BlackSabb]

[quote=WarEagle,

Are you sure you're a Christian? I really don't see much difference between the attitude of your post and the atheists who come here to mock God.[/quote]



Oh believe me brother, it ain't God that I'm "mocking".

Yeah, but good point. I don't know what I am anymore to be honest. And I'll be honest again, I'm disgusted by some fundamentalist doctrines that apparently you have to believe in order to be a Christian. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a liberal, or a leftist, or anything like that. But I notice that liberals and moderates don't go around saying that if others don't believe as they do, they are not Christians.

Fundamentalists are however "fundamental" about if you don't believe as they do, you are not a Christian. And don't say it's not true, because I've heard it with my own ears time and time again, from many fundamentalists.

And I cannot accept things like having to make a statement on the eternal fate of others, even whole nations. Fundamentalists are very happy to say this and that person is Hell bound, and if you cannot make such a positive statement, then you are not a Christian. So as I don't believe like this, what does that make me?

Fundamentalists every year protest at the gay and lesbian mardi gras. Now, I'm not supporting homosexuality, in fact, I don't. To me, blind freddy can see it's not normal. But, and a very big but, I don't believe in waving placards at them. To me, this just alienates them even further than they are.

And again, I would be seen as a non Christian. As fundamentalists generally see others as like them and saved or unlike them and Hell bound, well then, you tell me.......................................

What does that make me?

[WarEagle]

Oh believe me brother, it ain't God that I'm "mocking".

You're mocking His word. You're mocking His people. That sure sounds like you're mocking Him to me.

If you were to die today and find yourself before God to be judged, do you believe you would go to Heaven or to Hell? Why?

[IisJustMe]

It turns me off because when you talk to Christians about this verse, a lot of them support it and talk it about it as if it's some wondrous deed. It turns me off and sickens me to my stomach when Christians don't see how sick this is, and think it's justified and righteous.You were at ease with the explanation I provided you last week. What changed? Just because some people are too immature in their faith to understand that the Bible offers bad examples as well as good, all for our edification, does not mean you should return to your former misunderstanding and apprehension over the work. And certainly do not let it call your own faith into question. If you feel I've offered you help in understanding (and it wasn't me, but the Holy Spirit working between us), then go forward with that understanding and don't let anyone shake you from it.

[No Swansong]

It turns me off because when you talk to Christians about this verse, a lot of them support it and talk it about it as if it's some wondrous deed. It turns me off and sickens me to my stomach when Christians don't see how sick this is, and think it's justified and righteous.

"It must be right because it's in the Bible". Ugh!! That's about the mentality of a lot of Christians.

Offering to give your daughters to a violent, horny mob, to do with them anything they want, and violate them any way they want, is just not right. It's sick. What is wrong with some of you?

If you had a mob like this bashing on your doors and windows that wanted some dude in your home, would you offer to give your daughters to them in exchange?

Yeah, come to think of it, some of you most probably would. "Oh praise God" some of you would sing as you threw your daughters out to the mob.
I too must state that I have never heard of a Christian, let alone a preacher supporting Lots actions.

[No Swansong]

Oh believe me brother, it ain't God that I'm "mocking".

Yeah, but good point. I don't know what I am anymore to be honest. And I'll be honest again, I'm disgusted by some fundamentalist doctrines that apparently you have to believe in order to be a Christian. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a liberal, or a leftist, or anything like that. But I notice that liberals and moderates don't go around saying that if others don't believe as they do, they are not Christians.

Fundamentalists are however "fundamental" about if you don't believe as they do, you are not a Christian. And don't say it's not true, because I've heard it with my own ears time and time again, from many fundamentalists.

And I cannot accept things like having to make a statement on the eternal fate of others, even whole nations. Fundamentalists are very happy to say this and that person is Hell bound, and if you cannot make such a positive statement, then you are not a Christian. So as I don't believe like this, what does that make me?

Fundamentalists every year protest at the gay and lesbian mardi gras. Now, I'm not supporting homosexuality, in fact, I don't. To me, blind freddy can see it's not normal. But, and a very big but, I don't believe in waving placards at them. To me, this just alienates them even further than they are.

And again, I would be seen as a non Christian. As fundamentalists generally see others as like them and saved or unlike them and Hell bound, well then, you tell me.......................................

What does that make me?
Then may I ask who are you mocking?

[No Swansong]

It seems to me that you know very little about fundamentalism. I have never heard a fundamentalist "happy" that anyone else is headed for hell. (Do not lump us in with loonies like Fred Phelps) As for being Fundamentalist in our beliefs please take a look at our definition and in the appropriate forum ask your questions. At this point you appear to be debating simply for the sake of debate.

[WarEagle]

Yeah, but good point. I don't know what I am anymore to be honest. And I'll be honest again, I'm disgusted by some fundamentalist doctrines that apparently you have to believe in order to be a Christian. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a liberal, or a leftist, or anything like that. But I notice that liberals and moderates don't go around saying that if others don't believe as they do, they are not Christians.

Fundamentalists are however "fundamental" about if you don't believe as they do, you are not a Christian. And don't say it's not true, because I've heard it with my own ears time and time again, from many fundamentalists.

Not true. We don't believe that you must believe like us, but that you must believe the Bible.

It may make you uncomfortable, but the fact is that there is an objective standard to determine doctrinal truth and if one deviates from that standard, then the Bible says that they're not Christians.

And I cannot accept things like having to make a statement on the eternal fate of others, even whole nations. Fundamentalists are very happy to say this and that person is Hell bound

That's not true at all. It breaks my heart to say that anyone is going to Hell, but if the Bible has declared that they're going to Hell, and I don't tell them the truth in order to make them see the danger they're in, then I'm showing love to them.

If we're happy to say that people are going to Hell, then why do we spend so much time trying to keep them out of Hell?

So as I don't believe like this, what does that make me?

Most likely, a false convert.

Fundamentalists every year protest at the gay and lesbian mardi gras. Now, I'm not supporting homosexuality, in fact, I don't. To me, blind freddy can see it's not normal. But, and a very big but, I don't believe in waving placards at them. To me, this just alienates them even further than they are.

If you believe that gays are sinners and don't warn them about the wrath of God they face because of their sin, instead being content to let them go to Hell, then your no better than the Fred Phelps nuts who celebrate their deaths.

And again, I would be seen as a non Christian.

Not because you're not a fundamentalist or "believe like we do", though. You seem to have a very Unbiblical view of God, of your standing before God, and of soteriology. That's what makes you appear to be a false convert.

As fundamentalists generally see others as like them and saved or unlike them and Hell bound

I hope this will be the last time you repeat this untrue and unfair personal attack.

What does that make me?

Again, most likely a false convert.

One of the most telling things to me is that you're unable to answer my question about what's going to happen when you stand before God.

If you don't know that, then how can you claim to be a Christian?

[BlackSabb]

Not true. We don't believe that you must believe like us, but that you must believe the Bible.

Oh yeah? Which one? The Catholic Bible, the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, the Baptist Bible etc? Because they're all substantially different. What a truly ridiculous statement. A hundred and one different Christian denominations, all with varying beliefs, all based on the same Bible, and you say "believe in the Bible". Truly, you didn't put much thought into this.

It may make you uncomfortable, but the fact is that there is an objective standard to determine doctrinal truth and if one deviates from that standard, then the Bible says that they're not Christians.

"Objective". Like I say, the fact that there a so many interpretations of the Bible proves the fact that there is nothing "objective" about it. The word you're looking for is subjective.


Not because you're not a fundamentalist or "believe like we do", though. You seem to have a very Unbiblical view of God, of your standing before God, and of soteriology. That's what makes you appear to be a false convert.

"Unbiblical" compared to whom? You? I'm sure that your personal interpretations of the Bible are unBiblical compared to other Christians and denominations. So who is right and who is wrong? The sheer arrogance that your personal reading is correct and others are wrong. And don't forget my friend, if I'm a false convert to you because my interpretations are different, there are many, many Christians around the world that would see you too as a false convert because your interpretations are different to them.



I hope this will be the last time you repeat this untrue and unfair personal attack.

What a joke, the pot calling the kettle black!! Just look at your next quote buddy:

Again, most likely a false convert.

It speaks for itself.

One of the most telling things to me is that you're unable to answer my question about what's going to happen when you stand before God.

If you don't know that, then how can you claim to be a Christian?

What an incredibly stupid question!! How on earth do you know exactly what is going to happen to you when you stand before God? The sheer arrogance that you know it all, not only for yourself, but of others. Unbelievable.

[WarEagle]

Oh yeah? Which one?

The King James is a good one to start with.

The Catholic Bible, the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible

Actually, Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christians.

the Baptist Bible

I've been a Baptist for nigh on twenty years now. I wasn't aware that we had our own Bible. Care to elaborate?

A hundred and one different Christian denominations, all with varying beliefs, all based on the same Bible, and you say "believe in the Bible".

But isn't it interesting that the different Christian denominations are united around the essential doctrines of the faith?

"Objective". Like I say, the fact that there a so many interpretations of the Bible proves the fact that there is nothing "objective" about it. The word you're looking for is subjective.

And I say that the fact that we're all united on the essential doctrines of the faith show that it is objective.

"Unbiblical" compared to whom?

The Bible.

I'm sure that your personal interpretations of the Bible are unBiblical compared to other Christians and denominations.

Really? If this is true, then why have I been invited to preach in just about every denomination you can imagine?

The sheer arrogance that your personal reading is correct and others are wrong.

It has nothing to do with my personal reading. That's why we have so many different creeds and confessions, to show that we have an objective standard by which to judge doctrine.

And don't forget my friend, if I'm a false convert to you because my interpretations are different, there are many, many Christians around the world that would see you too as a false convert because your interpretations are different to them.

First of all, it has nothing to do with your interpretations.

Second, if you believe that I've said anything out of line with scripture, then you're more than welcome to correct me.

What a joke, the pot calling the kettle black!! Just look at your next quote buddy:

It speaks for itself.

It wasn't a personal attack. It wasn't an attack at all. You asked a question and I gave you a Biblically based answer. If you don't like the answer, then you shouldn't have asked the question.

How on earth do you know exactly what is going to happen to you when you stand before God? The sheer arrogance that you know it all, not only for yourself, but of others. Unbelievable.

If believing the Bible makes me arrogant, then I guess I'm arrogant.

Look, I believe that anyone who reads my posts to you will see that I've tried very hard to be polite, in spite of your rudeness and your obnoxious attitude. I do hope you repent and put your faith in Christ, but that doesn't mean I should have to put up with the ugliness in your posts. Therefore, this will be my last post to you.

I'll just leave you with this final thought. The Bible tells us that if we're born again, as you claim to be, then we'll exhibit what the Bible calls the "fruit of the Holy Spirit". The Bible defines the fruit of the Holy Spirit as the following characteristics: "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance" (Gal 5:22).

If you're a Christian, as you claim, then where are these things in your post?

[BlackSabb]

The King James is a good one to start with.


Anyone can read a Bible, but like I say, there are a hundred and one interpretations of it.


Actually, Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christians.

Says who? You? I don't mean to be deliberately rude, but what arrogance on your part, deciding on who is and who isn't a Christian!

I'm sure plenty of JW's would say you're not one based on your interpretation of the Bible.


I've been a Baptist for nigh on twenty years now. I wasn't aware that we had our own Bible. Care to elaborate?


It's called reading between the lines. I meant the Catholic interpretation of scriptures, the JW's interpretation of scriptures, the Baptist interpretation of scriptures etc. Not literally their own edited version of the Bible.



But isn't it interesting that the different Christian denominations are united around the essential doctrines of the faith?

Yeah, isn't it interesting that you don't have a clue about general Christian beliefs?

My goodness, such an unbelievable basic lack of common Christian knowledge!! So, all the Christian churches have "essentially" the same beliefs. Really?

Gee, let's see. Catholics believe that you pray through Mary and the Saints to supplicate you before Jesus. They, the Anglicans and the Orthodox Church practice infant baptism. All other Churches believe you pray directly to God through Jesus.

The Pentecostals and the Baptists don't believe in infant baptisms. The Baptists generally believe in the cessation of spiritual gifts and working of miracles. Pentecostals believe the gifts are in operation today.

Hmmm......The Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox, Pentecostals and others believe in a literal Hell, a place of everlasting punishment. The JW's and Seventh Day Adventists don't believe in a literal Hell.

And on and on I could go. So much for your "well all churches believe essentially the same". Ha.


And I say that the fact that we're all united on the essential doctrines of the faith show that it is objective.

And the fact that what I've shown you is just a small fraction of all the major variations of belief amongst all the Christian churches proves my point, not yours.


Really? If this is true, then why have I been invited to preach in just about every denomination you can imagine?

Maybe you are a particularly good looking dude..Did you ever consider that?


It has nothing to do with my personal reading. That's why we have so many different creeds and confessions, to show that we have an objective standard by which to judge doctrine.

Ummm.....dude, that makes no sense whatsoever!! The fact that there are "so many different creeds and confessions" shows that Bible reading is in fact subjective, not objective. If it was really objective, there wouldn't be "so many creeds and confessions" but one creed and one confession.

Please don't become a lawyer.

It wasn't a personal attack. It wasn't an attack at all. You asked a question and I gave you a Biblically based answer. If you don't like the answer, then you shouldn't have asked the question.

All I said was that I was not prepared to comment on the eternal status of other denominations and cultures. And for that, I got a "you are a false convert". This is what I hate about fundamentalism. In order to prove yourself "worthy", you not only have to fall in line with all of fundamentalist beliefs, but as a final test, you have to pronounce judgement on others.

Look, I believe that anyone who reads my posts to you will see that I've tried very hard to be polite, in spite of your rudeness and your obnoxious attitude. I do hope you repent and put your faith in Christ, but that doesn't mean I should have to put up with the ugliness in your posts. Therefore, this will be my last post to you.

Yes, I'm an ugly, ugly man. Unfortunately, you're a too common sight from what I've seen of many fundamentalists. You love to dish it out to others, but you can't take any yourself. You love to comment on other people, other beliefs, other cultures and societies. At the drop of a hat, you will call someone "false" and "Hell bound". It's as natural to you as chasing birds is to a cat.

But poor poor precious you when someone dares to standup to you and question you. It's then, " oh deary me, how dare you? I have been insulted".

Boo hoo.

I'll just leave you with this final thought. The Bible tells us that if we're born again, as you claim to be, then we'll exhibit what the Bible calls the "fruit of the Holy Spirit". The Bible defines the fruit of the Holy Spirit as the following characteristics: "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance" (Gal 5:22).

If you're a Christian, as you claim, then where are these things in your post?

They are there in abundance when I'm in my happy place.

[cubanito]

Well, that got ugly in a jiffy...

OK, another fundy whose never heard Lot's actions commended checking in.

As to believing exactly as I do, or even believing the Bible is infallible, neither of those are necessary for salvation.

I do believe in the infallibility of Scripture, yet my favorite writer is CS Lewis, a man who was most definitlely Christian, and defended the Faith most ably, yet who did NOT believe in the Inerrancy of Scripture. CS Lewis believed that up until more or less Abraham, the Bible was on the whole a mythical account. Now, I happen to think him wrong about that, but does that mean he was not saved? OF COURSE NOT!!!

Now as to who is saved, well, the ONLY salvation is through Christ. PERIOD.

However, let us assume some native in the year 200AD in the middle of Africa. Suppose this man looks up at the stars and concludes, as so many native cultures do, that while there may be spirits in the trees, there is only One Great God. Suppose further this man comes to an understanding that he is a sinful wretched evil man. That there is no way that he could ever be "good enough" to please "the Great Spirit in the Sky." Suppiose further this man abases himself in the ground, convicted of the universal conscience that Paul cites in Romans, and pleads for mercy, mercy he KNOWS he does not deserve. Will such a man be denied salvation because he does not know the name Jesus?

Before you anser, consider the new convert at a Baptist Revival. He is taught that if he clings to the name of "Jeeezzus" for his salvation, that he will be pardoned of all his evil deeds. Will that man be condemned because he did not properly pronounce Yeshua? Can any of us really properly pronounce Yeshua?

Look, I am here treading on thn ice. I am not by any stretch of the imagination saying that "all religions lead to God" or anything like that. What I am saying is that the conditions for salvation are a whole lot less than a full systematic theology on the Federalist View of substitutionary atonement or a set of syllables pronounced correctly.

God will not turn away a contrite heart, I believe. But a contrite heart has despaired of seeking to work for it's own salvation.

Only ONE Faith, Christianity, proclaims that salvation is by Faith ALONE, that one can not please God by ANY works at all. That we are totally depraved, and that God is Totally Holy, unable to accept even the tiniest error.

After that, God is the Judge, not me, not you.

In the end, methinks, there will be more hope for that native who never heard of Jesus, than for "Mother" Theresa who thinks she has something good to offer God.

JR

[arunma]

I think that JR has made an excellent point. Whether nor not salvation is possible for a person who has never heard of Jesus by word of mouth, but has had some other revelation, is an important issue, and Christians disagree on this. I personally lean more towards the school of thought that salvation depends crucially on hearing the word of God as preached by the church (i.e. I tend not to believe in salvation for the proverbial pigmy in the jungle, since none of us deserve salvation to begin with). Whatever our differing views, we who believe in the Bible can agree on this much: any person who hears the Gospel of Jesus and rejects it will most certainly not be saved, regardless of how contrite he thinks his heart is. So let us never say that false religions have anything to offer in terms of salvation.

[SpiritDriven]

Hi everyone. For many years in different types of churches I've attended, there has always been some type of missions program in each church. The "great commission" has always been emphasised as part of that program, to spread the gospel of Jesus. And many times, missions would be in countries where Christianity is a minority or barely reached.

The pastor or missions leader I have many times heard say something like this, "we have to proclaim the gospel in Iran, Iraq, India etc, because every day people are dying in those countries and going to Hell". So in other words, it is assumed that almost the whole population of those countries are going to Hell.

I say this also because I what I found out about Mother Teresa. Apparently, she was not dogmatic about the need for Christian conversion, (which took me by surprise when I did a little research). Apparently, she was content if her good works inspired others to be a better person within their own religion, whether it be Christian, Hindu, Muslim etc. Here is a website link:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a013htMotherTeresa.htm

Have a read of paragraphs 5-8, (very small paragraphs).

Here is another link just to show this is not a one off:

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/mothther.htm

Go about two thirds down this page, and read the very short paragraph after the heading: Other notable quotes from "Mother" Teresa (12/4/89 Time, pp.11 & 13).

Now also, I am definately, most definately, NOT a supporter or believer of televangelists. But again, I find it interesting that Joel Osteen has been interviewed saying that he is "uncomfortable" saying that someone is going to Hell because they have been a Muslim, Hindu etc. He insists that only God really knows their heart, and that man is just unable to say such things. Here is a youtube link to this interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ

It only runs for 1:09.

The same goes for, incidentally, when the pastors talk about "all those" Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons that are all going to Hell. Now don't get me wrong. I definately don't agree with their teachings, but again, are you comfortable saying all the membership of these 2 denominations are automatically going to Hell?

So in a nutshell, are you comfortable to say that wholesale populations of Indians, Iranians, etc plus those those of unorthodox Christian denominations are going to Hell?

Not at all....mainly because I believe the word of God.

God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

The word of God which goes forth from His mouth; It shall not return to Him empty, without accomplishing what He desires, and without succeeding in the matter for which He sent it (Isaiah 55:11).

There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, to be testified in due time (1 Timothy 2:5-6).

The Lord canst do all things, and that no purpose of His can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Obviousley your Pastor does not have any Faith in God.

[kobuk]

I just wanted to say how pleased i am to see our two special areas for non-Fundamentalists being used so often by our many excellent visiting guests.

Ask a Fundamentalist and a Debate area as well. It opens the doors across all Congregation areas for truthseekers.

...peace. ;)

[popegegorrythe3rd]

so, I just have to ask do christians think that all the GOOD people who have been good in there countries but are NOT christians are going to hell? Because mabye your scripture says that there not, but this is where athiest's are coming from, that just isnt rational. Their are people who are almost saintly in other countries who never do anything that you christians would call a 'sin' but are not christians, so their going to hell. However there are people who 'sin' all the time and are just nasty people however, they confess and rid themselves of this so called 'sin'. And because they are christians and can rid themselves of this sin their going to heaven. Why would any 'Higher Intelligent being' choose to save bad people and send good people to hell? Also, muslims think that you christians are going to be dammed or disregarded from heaven because of your faith, what makes your opinion on whos going to be saved ANY more justifiable than theirs?

[Albion]

so, I just have to ask do christians think that all the GOOD people who have been good in there countries but are NOT christians are going to hell? Because mabye your scripture says that there not,

Well, I have to say that they are...for the very reason you mentioned, the Bible. It's hard to get around the asnwer so long as one believes in the Bible and considers it to be what it says it is. Of course, we ought also to discuss "GOOD" since you merely stipulated that these people are good.

but this is where athiest's are coming from, that just isnt rational. Their are people who are almost saintly in other countries who never do anything that you christians would call a 'sin' but are not christians, so their going to hell.

Perhaps then, you have too casual an understanding of what sin is--something like "doing bad deeds to other people." Sin is a falling short of God's rightful expectations for us, and it's not difficult to comprehend that if one doesn't even know God, he isn't exactly being what he should.

However there are people who 'sin' all the time and are just nasty people however, they confess and rid themselves of this so called 'sin'.

If they do, and they are sincere, what would be the problem? OTOH, if you are assuming that their penitence is phony or just something done mechanically and externally, we'd probably agree with you that this is not real remorse which is necessary for forgiveness.

And because they are christians and can rid themselves of this sin their going to heaven. Why would any 'Higher Intelligent being' choose to save bad people and send good people to hell?

Obviously, a forgiven person is not the same in God's eyes--or ours--as one who hasn't repented and is, therefore, "bad."

Also, muslims think that you christians are going to be dammed or disregarded from heaven because of your faith, what makes your opinion on whos going to be saved ANY more justifiable than theirs?

We are following the Bible which tells the account of the Son of God, and is a compilation of books that have proven their worth over centuries of scrutiny. Muslims are following the political, social, and moral convictions of Mohammed who picked up most of his ideas second-hand from Christians and/or Jews he met in early life--not including child molestation, plural marriage, religious war, and conversion by force, of course. Figure it out for yourself.

[WannaWitness]

Post was off topic (unintentionally) so I deleted it.

[IisJustMe]

Not all Arabs are Muslim, not all Asians are Buddhists, not all Jamaicans are Rastafarians, not all Eastern Indians are Hindu, not all African-Americans are from Bahai faith. If we aren't careful, we can get into stereotypes that may be on the borderline of racial. I believe there are people of various races who are Christians, and can be if they are given the plan of salvation. Jesus didn't say to preach the gospel to all nations for nothing.I didn't see anyone raise the issue of race on this thread. You're right, but why bring it up? Most people have a misconception about race. There is only one: Human.

[WannaWitness]

I didn't see anyone raise the issue of race on this thread. You're right, but why bring it up? Most people have a misconception about race. There is only one: Human.

Whoops. I got a bit off topic. Guess I didn't bother to read the thread all the way through...

Allow me to stick my foot in my mouth and delete my past comment... :doh:

[IisJustMe]

Whoops. I got a bit off topic. Guess I didn't bother to read the thread all the way through...

Allow me to stick my foot in my mouth and delete my past comment... :doh:^_^ Don't worry about it. Happens to the best of us. Or the worst of us, personally speaking. :thumbsup:

God bless.

[shrewdsnake]

so, I just have to ask do christians think that all the GOOD people who have been good in there countries but are NOT christians are going to hell? Because maybe your scripture says that there not, but this is where atheist's are coming from, that just isn't rational. Their are people who are almost saintly in other countries who never do anything that you christians would call a 'sin' but are not christians, so their going to hell. However there are people who 'sin' all the time and are just nasty people however, they confess and rid themselves of this so called 'sin'. And because they are christians and can rid themselves of this sin their going to heaven. Why would any 'Higher Intelligent being' choose to save bad people and send good people to hell? Also, muslims think that you christians are going to be dammed or disregarded from heaven because of your faith, what makes your opinion on whos going to be saved ANY more justifiable than theirs?

Good and sin are two different things. There are plenty of good people who reject Christ and Scripture states:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Just calling oneself a Christian isn't enough to receive salvation. One must be truly repentant in their heart: Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Christians don't save themselves from sin the blood of Christ does that once you believe and receive that then there should be a change and repentance. Those that don't are no more guaranteed salvation then the lost.

As far as non-Christians and what they think or feel that is up to them. A Christian should be basing their actions and words on Christ. That is all that can be done.

I do have a problem with telling anyone they are going to Hell since I have no idea what is in their heart and I believe that leads to a judgmental attitude. I am comfortable telling people what Scripture says needs to be done to be saved and leave the rest up to them.

[FundamentalistJohn]

Scripture tells us here, and in other places that no-one is good. A Christian will not attain salvation because of their own righteousness or goodness. (two similar terms) No my friend no Christian will go to heaven because they are good; only because of Jesus the Christ, the Anointed One, the only begotten of God and His atoning sacrifice will they attain heaven.




Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.



FJ

[NewGuy101]

so, I just have to ask do christians think that all the GOOD people who have been good in there countries but are NOT christians are going to hell? Because mabye your scripture says that there not, but this is where athiest's are coming from, that just isnt rational. Their are people who are almost saintly in other countries who never do anything that you christians would call a 'sin' but are not christians, so their going to hell. However there are people who 'sin' all the time and are just nasty people however, they confess and rid themselves of this so called 'sin'. And because they are christians and can rid themselves of this sin their going to heaven. Why would any 'Higher Intelligent being' choose to save bad people and send good people to hell? Also, muslims think that you christians are going to be dammed or disregarded from heaven because of your faith, what makes your opinion on whos going to be saved ANY more justifiable than theirs?
Define good, then we'll talk.

In the mean time here's some scripture

“There is no one righteous, not even one,
3:11 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rom&chapter=3&verse=11) there is no one who understands,
there is no one who seeks God.
3:12 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rom&chapter=3&verse=12) All have turned away,
together they have become worthless;
there is no one who shows kindness, not even one.”

[lismore]

so, I just have to ask do christians think that all the GOOD people who have been good in there countries but are NOT christians are going to hell?

Hello there:wave:

Look at it from the other perspective. God loves the people, knows their situation and so had made the door wide open for them to come in.

Acts 2:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=2&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

God has made it that easy. Everyone who asks the Lord Jesus to save them will be saved.

Because:

Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=23&version=31&context=verse)
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God


All have sinned and fallen short of what is required. But God has opened a door of mercy and forgiveness that anyone and everyone can go in.

:wave:

[IisJustMe]

All have sinned and fallen short of what is required. But God has opened a door of mercy and forgiveness that anyone and everyone can go in. :wave:Yes, and God even accounted for those who have no opportunity to hear the gospel in their lifetimes, though admittedly, that "inability" is rapidly disappearing, thanks to the Internet and satellite TV.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Romans 2:14-16)

If they do not have the Law or the gospel, then their hearts either convict or condemn them. A certainty that "this isn't all there is, there must be Something or Someone greater than me," is reckoned as righteousness.