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Henaynei
4th October 2003, 06:49 AM
It was asked else where "why do you (Messianic Jews) continue to keep the food laws (Torah kosher laws) when Peter was told in Acts that all things are permissible to be eaten?"

1) Is that really what the "whole consul" of the Scripture says?
and
2) Not all Messianic Jews keep any level of kosher - but a great many do.

Therefore I would like to attempt a short (LOL) answer for those who do, like myself.

Much has been taught about Acts 10. Let us agree together to look at what scripture says....
Due to space I have skipped some verses so that we might address the topic here - but do read it all..... Come, let us reason together and agree on the following:

1) All Scripture is G-d breathed
2) G-d does not change, neither ammends His promises or His word.
3) Scripture is the first place to go to find the meaning of Scripture and the meaning Scripture gives itself is the primary one to be taken.
4) When we find the plain meaning of a Scripture then humility and obedience are the hallmarks of our love and service to the Messiah.

Agreed? Good :0) Here we go.

Acts 10:11-18
11 [Peter looked] and saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of four-footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, "Rise, Peter; kill, and eat."
14 But Peter said, "Not so, L-rd; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean."
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, "What G-d hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

Now some folks stop here and say "it's plain and done" - but what did Peter do at this point, and afterwards? Did Scripture ever tell us what this vision meant?

16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17a Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean,

Hmmm.... seems Peter did not think it meant to go eat unkosher foods (no matter *what* some current teachings say) - rather it confused him because G-d had said at Mt. Sinai that the laws of clean and unclean foods would stand forever, and neither G-d nor His Word changes - Amen??

So did G-d leave him in a quandry or was G-d preparing him for something - what WAS G-d teaching him?

17b behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, "Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them."
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him
27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28 And he said unto them, "Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing (according to the Oral Tradition) for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but G-d hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?"
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, "Of a truth I perceive that G-d is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Now, mind you - Peter did not say EVERY man in every nation feareth G-d and work righteousness, any more than every animal is clean - only those foods and men G-d has called clean.

Please also note that many Messianic Believers believe that the Kosher Laws were given only to the Jews and not the Gentiles. Views for and against this opinion are much too lengthy and involved for me to post.

Shalom v'L'Shanah Tovah
(Peace and a Good Year)
Henaynei

simchat_torah
4th October 2003, 12:20 PM
Shalom Henaynei,

see the following thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/t36715

Acts 10 has been discussed in quite a bit of detail.

shalom,
Yafet.

Henaynei
4th October 2003, 01:25 PM
I see that it has, and that your indepth scholarship quite out weighs mine.

My entry was a weak attempt to give a clear unarguable answer/format to present to the uninitiated and uninformed who while sometimes asking honest questions are still so steeped in constintine doctrine that they are unable to see or hear past verse 15.

May HaShem grant you peace, health, prosperity and security as you bring honor to His Name and comfort to His people in this new year.

Shalom,
Henaynei

iitb
4th October 2003, 06:23 PM
My entry was a weak attempt to give a clear unarguable answer/format to present to the uninitiated and uninformed who while sometimes asking honest questions are still so steeped in constintine doctrine that they are unable to see or hear past verse 15.
Well, while Yafet offered an extremely in-depth explanation of Peter's vision, I honestly feel that your explanation is easier for the average Christian(read: one who isn't Torah observant and probably knows little-to-nothing about Judaism) to understand. Sometimes a thorough understanding is a little too much to start with.

Justin

Henaynei
4th October 2003, 10:06 PM
Well, while Yafet offered an extremely in-depth explanation of Peter's vision, I honestly feel that your explanation is easier for the average Christian(read: one who isn't Torah observant and probably knows little-to-nothing about Judaism) to understand. Sometimes a thorough understanding is a little too much to start with.

Justin
Todah for your kind words......

Blessing upon your house and service and may you have an easy fast....

Shalom,
Henaynei

SonWorshipper
4th October 2003, 10:38 PM
Yes, may we all have an easy one, Now stop talking about food! ;) :D

simchat_torah
5th October 2003, 01:42 AM
oh, please don't get me wrong, I wasn't pointing out the other thread out of self-conceit. I was merely pointing out that another thread exists on the subject in case if you had missed it...

that's all.

Shamash Of Yeshua
5th October 2003, 03:50 AM
I see that it has, and that your indepth scholarship quite out weighs mine.

My entry was a weak attempt to give a clear unarguable answer/format to present to the uninitiated and uninformed who while sometimes asking honest questions are still so steeped in constintine doctrine that they are unable to see or hear past verse 15.

May HaShem grant you peace, health, prosperity and security as you bring honor to His Name and comfort to His people in this new year.

Shalom,
Henaynei
Shalom Henaynei,
I enjoyed reading your post. I agree with justinhusley. Welcome to CF Messianic Forum btw. May your tactile characters be a blessing to all on CF with the wisdom that YHVH can only give with HIS Spirit.
Have you ever seen this article The DRS (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=838354&postcount=54) which is from another website. Click on the above "The DRS" to read the article. You will find it an interesting read.

Shalom and Shalom,

Tag

Henaynei
5th October 2003, 08:17 AM
Welcome to CF Messianic Forum btw
Todah for your generous greeting :0)

Have you ever seen this article The DRS (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=838354&postcount=54)
Just read it - kewl.

While one would think it is significantly clear and graphically gross, my humble experience is that "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" and significant numbers of "used-to-be-christians now wannabe-Jews" are so staunchly "free-in-the-Spirit-to-be-me" anti-nomian as to "call light dark" and "righteousness unrighteousness." One can usually find them sagely mis-quoting Yeshua's comments about the tradition/superstition that had grown up around the mitzvah of N'tilat Yadi'im as G-d recending His "forever" law - or at the least not placing on those "free and truly His" the dark and punitive burdens placed on those "rebellious and stiff-necked people" who used to be His and who still vainly place themselves "under the law."

Forgive me - it must be my pre-Yom Kippur agnst - this is my first one in 15 years without a community or service to attend. LOL - just another level of affliction to bear [grin] - almost makes fasting and sleeplessness look easy!

Easy fast to all.......

Henaynei
15th March 2004, 07:24 PM
yet another shamelss bump http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_18_4.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

ShirChadash
15th March 2004, 07:30 PM
*wiping brow* here I thought this thread was NEW today and then I got to where Henny tells Justin, "may your fast be easy"... and I thought, "wugh?" (*frantic* WHAT FAST? What am I missing today? erg... um... DER, this was in October. Sigh. I need a nap LOL.)Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:sleep:

iitb
15th March 2004, 07:34 PM
*wiping brow* here I thought this thread was NEW today and then I got to where Henny tells Justin, "may your fast be easy"... and I thought, "wugh?" (*frantic* WHAT FAST? What am I missing today? erg... um... DER, this was in October. Sigh. I need a nap LOL.)Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:sleep:
I would've thought Tag welcoming Henaynei to the MJ forum would've given the date away. :P

ShirChadash
15th March 2004, 07:36 PM
LOL I missed that bahahahaaa!



Heeheee -- here I was thinking... WOW she got a LOT of responses already! *chuckle*

Henaynei
15th March 2004, 07:38 PM
LOL I missed that bahahahaaa!

Heeheee -- here I was thinking... WOW she got a LOT of responses already! *chuckle*
You're not the ONLY shameless neferious bumper around here!!!

ShirChadash
15th March 2004, 07:41 PM
You're not the ONLY shameless neferious bumper around here!!!

M O I ? ? ? :holy:

ShirChadash
16th March 2004, 12:28 PM
YK something I have never understood:


Acts 10:11-18
11 [Peter looked] and saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of four-footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, "Rise, Peter; kill, and eat."
14 But Peter said, "Not so, L-rd; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean."
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, "What G-d hath cleansed, that call not thou common."
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Why is it people insist on saying that G-d was declaring Peter should eat unclean meat in this passage of Scripture... when Peter didn't EAT the food at all in this vision in the first place, and G-d received the vessel back up into Heaven instead. The passage says G-d told Peter to rise and kill, too, and you don't see anyone trying to claim G-d was instituting a new rules for slaughtering meat ^_^ ; Peter never killed -- oh but yes, G-d was instituting new rules for eating, even though Peter never ate.

And BTW, Henaynei, I thought your treatment of this Scripture passage was well done in your OP. And I, of course, agree with you. Peter knew that the vision had deep spiritual import.

:wave: Off to school. :)

ShirChadash
27th December 2004, 12:55 PM
:angel: ttt

Henaynei
27th December 2004, 12:57 PM
LOL - just get back from school?? ;)

ShirChadash
27th December 2004, 01:00 PM
Nope -- still lernin!

Henaynei
27th December 2004, 07:57 PM
Nope -- still lernin!Aren't we all dearie, aren't we all!!

BTW - good to see you posting again :thumbsup: - missed you :):hug:

Sephania
28th December 2004, 12:29 PM
Wow, such an old thread, good to read some old Henaynei writings though from back in the day.

:)

Henaynei
28th December 2004, 01:43 PM
Wow, such an old thread, good to read some old Henaynei writings though from back in the day.

:)LOL- OIY!! my grey hairs just got grey hairs!!! The krick in me back! OUCH! ;)

Sephania
28th December 2004, 04:37 PM
"Old writings", not Old Henaynei,:eek: Compared to Mother Sarah, we are spring chickens! :D