Question for Chazak, Muffler, Simchat

[nasa1]

I know that you claim that you used to believe Yeshua is the Messiah.

I know that you now say you do not believe that anymore, for various reasons.

At one point, I am angry at you because I see how the devil is using you to lead others astray; yet, I feel bad for you because I know that the devil used someone to lead you astray. The devil is the one that truly leads people away from Yeshua, although he works through people to accomplish his mission.



Now, the Bible says it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, to repent and return to Christ, because they would be crucifixing the Son of G-d all over again - which is impossible.

So, I would like to know: what was your relationship with Jesus before you turned away? Did you love Him, and did you in turn experience His love?

I love Him with all my heart, and I have experienced Him, to the point where I talk to Him and He talks to me. He is my best friend. I do not understand why anyone, after loving Him, would turn away.


So, my question is: did you ever love Yeshua?


nasa

[muffler dragon]

I'm going to post in reverse order of your post sequence.

So, my question is: did you ever love Yeshua?

Yep. Quite strongly. I would categorize it as stronger than for any human being.

So, I would like to know: what was your relationship with Jesus before you turned away?

In general, my relationship with G-d was magnificent. In truth, it always has been, and I can't say that that has stopped. It's just different now. When I was a Christian, Jesus was the end-all, be-all of my existence.

Now, the Bible says it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, to repent and return to Christ, because they would be crucifixing the Son of G-d all over again - which is impossible.

I understand this completely. Interestingly enough, I have two points that come to mind:

1) I have no interest in repenting and returning.
2) However, if I ever did; then I know that I would be back in the fold in a heart beat. Granted, my relationship with G-d would be negatively affected, but if I felt pulled enough; then I'm sure it would be just peachy.

At one point, I am angry at you because I see how the devil is using you to lead others astray; yet, I feel bad for you because I know that the devil used someone to lead you astray. The devil is the one that truly leads people away from Yeshua, although he works through people to accomplish his mission.

Couple things I would like to state:

1) the Christian devil has no power over my life.
2) No one led me out of Christianity. As a matter of fact, it was G-d Almighty. It's a lengthy story, but it's the truth.
3) Regardless of who the Jewish Messiah was (in your case) or will be (in mine), I am only affected tangentially. Should the Messiah come in the future, then I don't expect a single thing in my life to change all that much. And I certainly won't need him to atone for my sins.

I know that you claim that you used to believe Yeshua is the Messiah.

I know that you now say you do not believe that anymore, for various reasons.

Should you ever have the desire, I will lay out exactly what constituted my exit from Christianity all the way from the Integral Part and the reasons that followed.

[ChavaK]

At one point, I am angry at you because I see how the devil is using you to lead others astray; yet, I feel bad for you because I know that the devil used someone to lead you astray. The devil is the one that truly leads people away from Yeshua, although he works through people to accomplish his mission.
I find this comment interesting because it directly
ties into the other thread here referring to HaSatan...
Why do you feel the people you named are leading
people astray? I haven't seen them try to convert
others away from their faith-they are explaining
their beliefs and the beliefs of Judaism. I have not
seen them doing anti-missionary work, and it would
make no sense for them to do so since Jews/Noahides
have no interest in converting others to their faith...

[muffler dragon]

I find this comment interesting because it directly
ties into the other thread here referring to HaSatan...
Why do you feel the people you named are leading
people astray?

I have my own suspicions. :D

I haven't seen them try to convert
others away from their faith-they are explaining
their beliefs and the beliefs of Judaism. I have not
seen them doing anti-missionary work, and it would
make no sense for them to do so since Jews/Noahides
have no interest in converting others to their faith...

Ding! Ding! Ding!

[ChavaK]

I have my own suspicions. :D


Yessss???? Do tell.....;)

[muffler dragon]

Yessss???? Do tell.....;)

People being "led away" can cause a number of concerns:

1) fear, because it contradicts Scripture about Jesus possibly losing sheep in his fold.
2) apprehension, because there are those who don't want people to have enough trust and faith to challenge their faith.

Look at the way Charles would attempt to "protect" the people on this board from the things that some of us would write. Look at the ad hominems and attempts to poison the well whenever something strikes a chord.

These are natural defense mechanisms for those who feel anxious about challenges.

[Talmidah]

People being "led away" can cause a number of concerns:

1) fear, because it contradicts Scripture about Jesus possibly losing sheep in his fold.
2) apprehension, because there are those who don't want people to have enough trust and faith to challenge their faith.

Look at the way Charles would attempt to "protect" the people on this board from the things that some of us would write. Look at the ad hominems and attempts to poison the well whenever something strikes a chord.

These are natural defense mechanisms for those who feel anxious about challenges.
I can understand that. I can remember a particular conversation with a good friend of mine about 12 years ago. A friend of ours who had been an on-fire Christian for many, many years had 'deconverted' and I was saying how she must have never been saved in the first place because no one could turn away from Jesus after having really known him. I was so thankful because I was very secure in the knowledge that that would never happen to me. But I had to assert that she was not a true believer because the thought that a true Christian could leave the faith was terrifying to me.

[muffler dragon]

I can understand that. I can remember a particular conversation with a good friend of mine about 12 years ago. A friend of ours who had been an on-fire Christian for many, many years had 'deconverted' and I was saying how she must have never been saved in the first place because no one could turn away from Jesus after having really known him. I was so thankful because I was very secure in the knowledge that that would never happen to me. But I had to assert that she was not a true believer because the thought that a true Christian could leave the faith was terrifying to me.

Isn't it amazing how the immediate reaction is to delve into a "true Scotsman" discussion? It's so irritating.

[christianmomof3]

1) I have no interest in repenting and returning.
2) However, if I ever did; then I know that I would be back in the fold in a heart beat. Granted, my relationship with G-d would be negatively affected, but if I felt pulled enough; then I'm sure it would be just peachy.


http://elouai.com/images/yahoo/33.gif Hmm, interesting.
I have not
seen them doing anti-missionary work, and it would
make no sense for them to do so since Jews/Noahides
have no interest in converting others to their faith...
:idea: Bingo! And why is that I wonder? I have been thinking about that. The first answer that comes to my mind is that the Lord never told the Jews to evangelize. The only provisions for converting outsiders was to convert those who lived with them in their communities and the reason for that was so that the strangers among them would not influence the Jews to worship idols and false Gods. It apparantly did not help a lot because if you read the Old Testament, the children of Israel repeatedly took on the customs of those around them and joined them in their idol worship.

[muffler dragon]

It apparantly did not help a lot because if you read the Old Testament, the children of Israel repeatedly took on the customs of those around them and joined them in their idol worship

I would beg to differ that it didn't "help a lot" since the Jews have remained to this day.

[simchat_torah]

At one point, I am angry at you because I see how the devil is using you to lead others astray;
I never have done this, nor am I interested in doing this. I have never been an antimissionary, and am not interested in doing such. ever.

yet, I feel bad for you because I know that the devil used someone to lead you astray.
Quite the contrary. No one shared with me any doubts or arguments to lead me away from belief in Jesus. Ever. No one tried to convince me.

Please don't miscontrue the next statement as a point of arrogance, but it simply was a fact from my pov:
In my great search for those of greater knowledge than me in the MJ community, I generally found I was one of the most educated. When I had questions of a deeper nature, no one in the MJ community could provide answers, I had to search them out for myself.

My conclusions about the Messiahship of Jesus are a direct result of my own research, inquiry, and seeking.

The devil is the one that truly leads people away from Yeshua, although he works through people to accomplish his mission.I don't know if I believe in "the devil". I certainly believe that evil exists, and if HaSatan exists, he certainly is no equal power to HaShem. From what I can tell the figure of "Satan" is a misconception of Jewish theologies. Christianity saw references to HaSatan and mistook this for a literal figure. Maybe the passages were intended to be taken literally and he does exist, but I'm not really convinced... and I certainly don't think it is important either way. I believe demons do exist and maybe HaSatan is an especially powerful one who lead many demonic forces astray. However, evil is too chaotic to have a central figurehead.


Now, the Bible says it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, to repent and return to Christ, because they would be crucifixing the Son of G-d all over again - which is impossible. This is one possible interpretation of Christian passages, yes. Some also believe you can lose your salvation.

So, I would like to know: what was your relationship with Jesus before you turned away? Did you love Him, and did you in turn experience His love?I was very in love with my messiah. I prayed to him daily, worshipped him, and loved him more than is imaginable. If you ask friends of mine who knew me when I was a christian and then when I was a messianic, they would certainly tell you that they knew of no one who was a stronger christian. In fact, I even had a cross shaved into the back of my head (in my hair) for a year when I was in high school and again when I was in college. I played in a worship band, was "baptised" in the spirit and spoke in tongues, led dozens and dozens to Jesus, owned only christian music, went to church 3-4 days a week, carried a bible with me everywhere, the whole shebang.


I love Him with all my heart, and I have experienced Him, to the point where I talk to Him and He talks to me. He is my best friend. I do not understand why anyone, after loving Him, would turn away.I felt the same way at the time.


So, my question is: did you ever love Yeshua?
Yes, more than you would believe.

But after honestly looking at the origins of the NT, honestly examining the claims christianity made about Jesus, examining the deep roots of paganism in my belief system.... I had to leave. I had no choice if I wanted to be honest.

Morever, having a Jewish soul (Jewish ancestory on both sides of my parental lineage) I ended up falling in love with Judaism. I loved its ancient spirit. I loved the way it didn't focus on a man (jesus), but instead focused on mankind. I loved its true honesty with itself, and the utter rejection of paganism. Judaism has virtually remained unchanged for millenium at its core, yet it has adapted and evolved in its exterior (especially artistically) every century through the ages.

I also don't consider myself fanatical (but certainly was when I was a christian). I think of myself as stable and calm now. Which is much more enjoyable.

But to answer your question: yes.


-Yafet

[christianmomof3]

I would beg to differ that it didn't "help a lot" since the Jews have remained to this day.
"a lot" is a rather subjective number I suppose :)
I think that is from the Lord's mercy that the Jews have remained until this day and not from the laws to try to convert strangers within their communities.
It is of the Lord that He has always had a remnant of His people who have remained faithful to Him.

[muffler dragon]

"a lot" is a rather subjective number I suppose :)
I think that is from the Lord's mercy that the Jews have remained until this day and not from the laws to try to convert strangers within their communities.
It is of the Lord that He has always had a remnant of His people who have remained faithful to Him.

While I believe that the Jews have received mercy from G-d throughout the ages, I don't believe that this mercy was given freely. I believe the Jews have maintained their existence, because of their own efforts. It's because of that effort that G-d has provided them with mercy to continue. Furthermore, I don't think it's just a "remnant" that has remained. It's no small feat to keep this living legacy going, and that takes more than a select few. But this is all JMHO.

[A_Pioneer]

Their mission is to save souls to the Greek God, Jesus!
Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
And they do not know the name of any of them!

Shalom

[ChazakEmunah]

I know that you claim that you used to believe Yeshua is the Messiah.
Yep, I sure did. More than that, I used to believe that he was G-d in the flesh and prayed to him and worshiped him on a daily basis.

I know that you now say you do not believe that anymore, for various reasons.
My experience is similar to others here. While I was still a Messianic, I stopped believing that Je*us was G-d. And I as I studied and learned more, I came to understand that Je*us not only was not the Mashiakh, but never existed to begin with. I have come to learn that when scholars talk of a 'historical Je*us' they are in fact referring to a person called Y'hoshua (Joshua). So with this is mind, I have learned quite a bit about Y'hoshua, who he really was, what he really said, and what he really did. I have learned that he is the complete opposite of Je*us. The two are like night and day.

So having learned all that I have, I could not possibly continue to believe that 1)Je*us is or was G-d, 2) that Je*us fulfilled any requirements relating to the Mashiakh.

At one point, I am angry at you because I see how the devil is using you to lead others astray;
Why be angry? Why have so much hate in your heart? Is this truly what C*hristianity teaches? Because I never learned this behavior when I was a C*hristian.

And I really hate to break it to you, because I know that C*hristianity teaches you to believe that there is another god that opposes HaShem, but Judaism teaches no such thing. In fact, when taken literally, anyone who strongly opposes someone is a Satan (adversary). And that urge you feel to sin? Well that's your yetzer ra, also known as your 'evil inclination.'

Now as far as this business about leading others 'astray.' Why do you feel so intimidated by our presence? Has anyone here actively tried to convert any C*hristian to Judaism? I think you know that the answer is no. Noone has tried to convert any of you to Judaism.


yet, I feel bad for you because I know that the devil used someone to lead you astray.
Nope, no one led me astray. I can't really describe it, but after being a C*hristian so long, and then being a Messianic for a long time, it was just sort of a realization. It was like an awakening, if you will. After debating with someone here after a couple of days, I came to the realization that throughout all my studying, my mindset had changed, and I was no longer 'Messianic.'


The devil is the one that truly leads people away from Yeshua, although he works through people to accomplish his mission.
See, here you go giving the Satan too much credit. You are ascribing god-like qualities to him. What you really think is HaSatan tempting a person to sin is no less than their own yetzer ra. And each and every one of us have the potential to overcome our yetzer ra. But for the record, no one is "led away" from belief in 'Yeshua.' For each and every person who leaves C*hristianity they never do so out of an emotional impulse, but instead make a conscious decision to reject it.


So, I would like to know: what was your relationship with Jesus before you turned away? Did you love Him, and did you in turn experience His love?
Well, I've already told most of my story above, but I'll recap a little here.

Well, as I've said before, I grew up in a C*hristian home, went to church at least 3 times a week, had C*hristian friends, went to C*hristian schools (3rd-12th grade), was baptized into the 'Holy Spirit' when I was 14, was one of the counselors at youth camp, was a leader in my youth group, only listened to C*hristian music, would vow to fast on my own, and was wholly on fire for G-d. I was one of the kids who was never ashamed to be a C*hristian. I always talked about it with my friends, wore a cross around my neck, and prayed several times a day. I was as C*hristian as they come. So yes, I had a great relationship with Je*us and felt like I experienced his love on a daily basis.

Then, my mother finally decides to tell me that I am Jewish when I was 17. Not much changed, but I did start by learning about Judaism, and started calling myself a 'Messianic Jew' even before I learned that there were other Jews who believed in Je*us that were called Messianic. From that point on, I started to really learn. And after spending 10yrs of learning about Judaism, Torah, HaShem, the Mashiakh, 1st Cent Judaism, Early Church History, I came to hold the belief that everything I had been taught growing up was wrong. Je*us was not G-d. Je*us was not the Mashiakh. So, finding my beliefs incompatible with C*hristianity and Messianic 'Judaism,' I left and didn't look back.

Since then, I have continued to study, and have learned a great deal more about Judaism. It truly is a beautiful religion. I am at peace with my Creator and daily strive to bring myself closer to him. I cannot describe the joy I feel from simply taking the time to wash my hands and say netilat yadayim every morning. As I go throughout the day, I know that each brakha I say brings my n'shoma closer to HaShem. Or the fact that I wait 5 hours to eat a cookie after having eaten a pastrami sandwich. Today, I am much, much more fulfilled than I ever was as a C*hristian, and I wouldn't go back even if my life were at stake.

So, my question is: did you ever love Yeshua?

I think I more than answered this question....


Okay everyone, I'll try to get back here after Shabbos.

Good Shabbos to everyone!

[visionary]

While I believe that the Jews have received mercy from G-d throughout the ages, I don't believe that this mercy was given freely. I believe the Jews have maintained their existence, because of their own efforts. It's because of that effort that G-d has provided them with mercy to continue. Furthermore, I don't think it's just a "remnant" that has remained. It's no small feat to keep this living legacy going, and that takes more than a select few. But this is all JMHO.I would say by their own efforts to maintain the connection with God, no matter what.

[nasa1]

I find this comment interesting because it directly
ties into the other thread here referring to HaSatan...
Why do you feel the people you named are leading
people astray? I haven't seen them try to convert
others away from their faith-they are explaining
their beliefs and the beliefs of Judaism. I have not
seen them doing anti-missionary work, and it would
make no sense for them to do so since Jews/Noahides
have no interest in converting others to their faith...


A person that the devil is using may or may not be aware that he/she is being used to lead others astray.
Just by saying you no longer believe in Yeshua makes the devil happy, for there are others who are on the brink of turning away, and your testimony helps them.

So...did you ever love Jesus?

nasa

[nasa1]

Well, Muffler, Chazak, if you really did read the Torah, you would believe what Moses said about Yeshua.


If you really loved G-d, you would recognize who Yeshua is and love Him and believe that He is the Son of G-d.



You are deceived into thinking you love G-d, just like many others in many other religions.


That peace you feel in your Judaism is a false peace from the lying spirit hasatan.


You never loved Jesus. Ever. If you did, you never would have left him. You never belonged to Him, or us.

But Jesus said it best:



John chapter 8


42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."





nasa

[visionary]

Loving Jesus and knowing God are two different things. One is a theology. The other is a personal experience with the Holy One of Israel. All those who have that personal connection with the Holy One of Israel will be saved. Now you know why Yeshua said "I never knew you".

Jacob maybe wrestling in the dark but he will wrestle until the break of day when it will dawn on him whom he is wrestling with and then they will hang on until they are blessed. So it is for his family tree, the sins of the father are handed down to the children and they will repeat it.

[muffler dragon]

Then, my mother finally decides to tell me that I am Jewish when I was 17.

Since you weren't raised Jewish, has this affected your relationship with your family members as you've become more observant Judaically?

[muffler dragon]

I would say by their own efforts to maintain the connection with God, no matter what.


Agreed.

[nasa1]

Loving Jesus and knowing God are two different things. One is a theology. The other is a personal experience with the Holy One of Israel. All those who have that personal connection with the Holy One of Israel will be saved. Now you know why Yeshua said "I never knew you".

Jacob maybe wrestling in the dark but he will wrestle until the break of day when it will dawn on him whom he is wrestling with and then they will hang on until they are blessed. So it is for his family tree, the sins of the father are handed down to the children and they will repeat it.



No they are not different, and you are sadly mistaken if you think one can be accepted by Hashem while denying His Son!



You are lying, visionary, when you say such things. Preach the truth. Otherwise, you do not love Christ or anyone.

nasa

[muffler dragon]

Well, Muffler, Chazak, if you really did read the Torah, you would believe what Moses said about Yeshua.

I've read the Christian Bible from cover to cover in the NIV, NASB, KJV, NKJV, Amplified and Living. I'm living proof that one can read Jesus into anything they want; yet, that doesn't make it correct. When looking at the Jewish Torah from a Jewish perspective, one isn't so inclined to see something that doesn't belong. I find it analogous to the movie A Beautiful Mind. Every where the guy looked, he could mathematics. He was transposing his perceptions onto nature.

If you really loved G-d, you would recognize who Yeshua is and love Him and believe that He is the Son of G-d.

Come on, nasa. This is a load of malarky. The Incorporeal cannot be recognized. Get over yourself.

And here I thought your questioning was genuine. I was hoping that it wouldn't become a bogus "true Scotsman" thread. But alas, you're just proving out my other points already raised.

You are deceived into thinking you love G-d, just like many others in many other religions.


That peace you feel in your Judaism is a false peace from the lying spirit hasatan.


You never loved Jesus. Ever. If you did, you never would have left him. You never belonged to Him, or us.


You must be the type who HAS to say something like this due to insecurity. It's amazing that you don't have any more faith in G-d than you do.

If you believe this junk; then your god is an evil and little god. I wouldn't want to know him anyway.

Lastly, I'm not a Jew nor am I Jewish. If you're going to flame me; then, at least, get that part right.

[nasa1]

"Your god is evil and I wouldn't want to know Him anyway"


I know, that is your father talking. Like father, like son.


Yes! You have no desire to know Him. So keep decieving yourself that you are having a relationship with Him.

The only person you are having a relationship with is the devil. Like father, like son.
Which is why lies are continually pouring frm your mouth.

He is the father of lies, and so, you lie.

nasa

[nasa1]

2nd John
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

[nasa1]

1st John

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.


13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life

[nasa1]

1st John
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.

[visionary]

No they are not different, and you are sadly mistaken if you think one can be accepted by Hashem while denying His Son!



You are lying, visionary, when you say such things. Preach the truth. Otherwise, you do not love Christ or anyone.

nasa You are not reading what I wrote.

Loving Jesus
- going to church on sunday
- see Jesus as the one to pray to
- think that by declaring, it is so
- do things that you think are pleasing in his sight like pointing your finger at those around you.

That is a theology...

For If you had a experience with The Holy One of Israel (Yeshua) you would understand things in a whole new light.

That is the experience. God is far more merciful and forgiving that what you believe. I know this from experience in His Presence. No they are not different, and you are sadly mistaken if you think one can be accepted by Hashem while denying His Son!We are to worship the Father. Yeshua taught us how on Mount Sinai. He sent His Holy Spirit to teach you all this.You are lying, visionary, when you say such things.I have been in the presence of God, and He fulfilled Rev 3:20 with a "one on one" conversation. It all comes together, though it has been stretched out over the centuries. While you are fighting over the crumbs, you are missing out.

There is a grand banquet where we are all invited. It will not be under any creed, religious title, but simply "believer" that we sit. God does truly wink, and does call us all to repentence. Even if we all repent at the 11th hour, God will accept us. But this is all between us individually and the Lord.

No preaching or declaring that "this is" or "is not" will change what goes on in the heart. Since God judges the heart, then that is where it matters. You have revealed you heart to us. You have shared your heart with us. You have shown us the spirit upon which you follow. Do you know what image it is?

You can make all the declarations you want. If the Holy Spirit does not use an ounce of it in the heart of another, then I would pray for words that are more acceptable in His sight and something the Holy Spirit can use to convict others.

Abuse of scripture is like using it as a two-edged sword, and it is slicing you to pieces. This burden you bear for us here, may have more to do with the Lord convicting you to come here for your salvation that it has to do with ours. I truly do believe that you are here because God sent you. You just do not realize why yet. Whether you know it or not, you are confirming our faith. I know that is not what you intended.

May the Lord bless you with a wonderful date with Him as sun sets upon this day. May you humble yourself before His throne and let your mind seek Him. May you lay down all your weapons and let all the fights stop so that you can hear His still small voice. May you ask for forgiveness for this week's mistakes known and unknown so that you may draw closer into His presence. May the Lord cleans you of all unrighteouness, so that you can experience the peace that passes all udnerstanding. May the Lord lay His Robe of Righteousness upon your shoulders so that you can be in His Holy Presence. May you then learn at His feet.

May you all that read this blessing experience it all this shabbat... Amein

[Torah613]

prior to leaving christianity, i was simply a lipservice christian. I remained a Christian in order to not cause grief to my parents, especially my mother who chose to raise me Christian instead of Jewish. But there comes a time when a Jew must be true to his people and his G-d.

Yochanan

[nasa1]

prior to leaving christianity, i was simply a lipservice christian. I remained a Christian in order to not cause grief to my parents, especially my mother who chose to raise me Christian instead of Jewish. But there comes a time when a Jew must be true to his people and his G-d.

Yochanan



Then there is true hope for you, Joseph.

A lipservice Christian is no Christian at all.


You did not walk away from Jesus - you never were His.


Therefore, there is much hope for you!


Even though the scriptures state that even though the number of Israelites be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved - and this remnant, together with the Gentile remnant, is "all Israel" that G-d has promised to save!

So you may be a part of that remnant!

I hope you are, and I pray that you will know Jesus one day.


The ultimate proof of G-d's love is the cross.
nasa

[nasa1]

You are not reading what I wrote.

Loving Jesus
- going to church on sunday
- see Jesus as the one to pray to
- think that by declaring, it is so
- do things that you think are pleasing in his sight like pointing your finger at those around you.

That is a theology...

For If you had a experience with The Holy One of Israel (Yeshua) you would understand things in a whole new light.

That is the experience. God is far more merciful and forgiving that what you believe. I know this from experience in His Presence. We are to worship the Father. Yeshua taught us how on Mount Sinai. He sent His Holy Spirit to teach you all this.I have been in the presence of God, and He fulfilled Rev 3:20 with a "one on one" conversation. It all comes together, though it has been stretched out over the centuries. While you are fighting over the crumbs, you are missing out.

There is a grand banquet where we are all invited. It will not be under any creed, religious title, but simply "believer" that we sit. God does truly wink, and does call us all to repentence. Even if we all repent at the 11th hour, God will accept us. But this is all between us individually and the Lord.

No preaching or declaring that "this is" or "is not" will change what goes on in the heart. Since God judges the heart, then that is where it matters. You have revealed you heart to us. You have shared your heart with us. You have shown us the spirit upon which you follow. Do you know what image it is?

You can make all the declarations you want. If the Holy Spirit does not use an ounce of it in the heart of another, then I would pray for words that are more acceptable in His sight and something the Holy Spirit can use to convict others.

Abuse of scripture is like using it as a two-edged sword, and it is slicing you to pieces. This burden you bear for us here, may have more to do with the Lord convicting you to come here for your salvation that it has to do with ours. I truly do believe that you are here because God sent you. You just do not realize why yet. Whether you know it or not, you are confirming our faith. I know that is not what you intended.

May the Lord bless you with a wonderful date with Him as sun sets upon this day. May you humble yourself before His throne and let your mind seek Him. May you lay down all your weapons and let all the fights stop so that you can hear His still small voice. May you ask for forgiveness for this week's mistakes known and unknown so that you may draw closer into His presence. May the Lord cleans you of all unrighteouness, so that you can experience the peace that passes all udnerstanding. May the Lord lay His Robe of Righteousness upon your shoulders so that you can be in His Holy Presence. May you then learn at His feet.

May you all that read this blessing experience it all this shabbat... Amein



The true abuse of scripture is when you do not share it with others because you are ashamed of the harsh words spoken in the passage.

The true abuse of scripture is when one ignores certain parts that go against his or her theology.


Jesus said that if anyone is ashamed of his words, He will be ashamed of him or her on that Day.

The only people who will be at the banquet will be those who love CHRIST.


You say, "Ask the Lord to forgive you, " but you do not add that Christ is the only way to the Father's presence. You keep leaving Him out of ther picture.

You keep leaving the cross and the blood out because they wil offend.


If you are going to lead people to the Truth, Jesus, then say the whole truth - don't leave out the parts that will offend people!

It just proves you are ashamed of His words.


nasa

[nasa1]

Visionary, I know you think I'm full of hate - that is ok with me, I am simply someone who accepts the whole Bible, even the parts that speak of hate. Yet you condemn me for it.


Tell me, what spirit was Paul writing from when when he wrote the following:


1st Thessalonians

For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.



What spirit was he writing from when he wrote this:

Galatians 5:12
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!





What spirit was David writing with when he wrote this:

Psalm 139:21
Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you?




So you can continue to wonder what kind of spirit I have, but it is the same one as yours. I too am a visionary, as I told you before.


nasa

[Wags]

Shouldn't this thread, like most of the ones NASA is involved in, be in the debate section?

[simchat_torah]

Nasa,You never loved Jesus. Ever.You don't know my heart. How dare you judge me?
You don't love G-d, because you don't believe in Yeshua.This is just getting disgusting. Your seat of judgement is uncalled for. I love G-d with every fiber of my being.
Just by saying you no longer believe in Yeshua makes the devil happy, for there are others who are on the brink of turning away, and your testimony helps them.
If they falter simply because I believe whatever I believe then I would suggest they have no faith at all.

[simchat_torah]

Shouldn't this thread, like most of the ones NASA is involved in, be in the debate section?More like the trash.

[visionary]

Visionary, I know you think I'm full of hate - that is ok with me, I am simply someone who accepts the whole Bible, even the parts that speak of hate. Yet you condemn me for it.


Tell me, what spirit was Paul writing from when when he wrote the following:


1st Thessalonians

For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.



What spirit was he writing from when he wrote this:

Galatians 5:12
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!





What spirit was David writing with when he wrote this:

Psalm 139:21
Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you?




So you can continue to wonder what kind of spirit I have, but it is the same one as yours. I too am a visionary, as I told you before.


nasa I am all for the whole bible... but the parts that you share with us is not new, nor do we neglect these things. If there was a more well rounded balance in the things you speak of, then it would be good. It has been a lopsided presentation so far, and that gives a false image.

[Steve Petersen]

I don't know why anyone in this forum tries to have a discussion with people who come here to agitate. Put them on your ignore list and let's have some useful discussion. Please.

[nasa1]

I am all for the whole bible... but the parts that you share with us is not new, nor do we neglect these things. If there was a more well rounded balance in the things you speak of, then it would be good. It has been a lopsided presentation so far, and that gives a false image.



I don't know what you are referring to here, what specific thing, but if you are talking about the "hate" thing, I will try and be more rounded.


For one, I do believe that the Bible teaches godly hate, like David had. I also believe that David loved his enemies at the same time. Proof of this is when we see David actually mourning for those that plotted his downfall when he heard they were sick. He would actually fast for those men. That's true love for enemies, and I know that I try to love my enemies, but I will be honest with you - I have never fasted for an enemy of mine.

I think the hate David felt for his enemies was a godly indignation. Paul also demontrated that hatred for his kinsmen according to the flesh, the men who wanted the Gentiles to go through a conversion process. You know that Paul loves them, for he was basically willing to go to hell for his kinsmen, so that they would be saved - yet at the same time you see that godly hate and righteous indignation when he wishes those men would cut their own members off.

I love Nehemiah. I love how G-d used him in that awesome revival with Judah. I love how hard he worked to get his fellow Jews to come back to the L-rd and follow the Torah. But Nehemiah could be a rough old sod! When he realized that some of his fellow Jews married pagan gentile wives, he freaked, to say the least, especially when he heard the precious Jewish children speaking two different languages, or not even able to speak Hebrew at all! You know what he did? He gave them a good licken and pulled out their hair! Wow, I love that enthusiasm!

So, was that a more "rounded" view?

NASA


http://www.townwest.org/nehemiah9_6.jpg

[nasa1]

More like the trash.
Ok, Simchat, let me ask you a question: would you ever leave the wife you married, if you truly loved her?

Neither would you ever leave the L-rd Jesus, if you ever truly loved Him.

NASA

[visionary]

Maybe you were born in the wrong generation. If you were in Nehemiah't time, where would you be?

[nasa1]

Ok, before we get to that, do you now understand my whole theory on hate?

Was I more rounded?

nasa

[ContraMundum]

People being "led away" can cause a number of concerns:

1) fear, because it contradicts Scripture about Jesus possibly losing sheep in his fold.
2) apprehension, because there are those who don't want people to have enough trust and faith to challenge their faith.

Look at the way Charles would attempt to "protect" the people on this board from the things that some of us would write. Look at the ad hominems and attempts to poison the well whenever something strikes a chord.

These are natural defense mechanisms for those who feel anxious about challenges.

The bottom line is that the rules are meant to protect people from many things, among them proselytism. A safe, peaceful haven is important to the MJs here.

Also- most Christians find people who have left Christianity to have been wrong about their doctrines in the first place and when they continue in that understanding, teaching it here, it just annoys everyone that someone could get it so wrong. Call it the irritation factor.

I don't blame Charles for being reactionary. He saw what he believed to be mis-representations and lies about him and his beliefs and stood up for himself. He wasn't always perfect in his methods, but I understood his reasons.

[ContraMundum]

I agree Steve- not every discussion has to end up in the debate section. This one hasn't received any complaints yet- it's not disrupting the place.

[simchat_torah]

Ok, Simchat, let me ask you a question: would you ever leave the wife you married, if you truly loved her?

Neither would you ever leave the L-rd Jesus, if you ever truly loved Him.
If I found out my wife didn't exist and she was merely a figment of my imagination, then your analogy would be much closer to my situation.

[ChazakEmunah]

Since you weren't raised Jewish, has this affected your relationship with your family members as you've become more observant Judaically?
Not really. Both my mother and my sister are in the process of returning to Judaism. Baruch HaShem! My Father has been pretty supportive. We debated a little back and forth after I told him that I was no longer Messianic, but we both just let it go. Too much else going on in our lives right now. All in all, he's been quite accepting of my beliefs. I've been fortunate.

[muffler dragon]

Not really. Both my mother and my sister are in the process of returning to Judaism. Baruch HaShem! My Father has been pretty supportive. We debated a little back and forth after I told him that I was no longer Messianic, but we both just let it go. Too much else going on in our lives right now. All in all, he's been quite accepting of my beliefs. I've been fortunate.

That is stupendous!!!

[nasa1]

If I found out my wife didn't exist and she was merely a figment of my imagination, then your analogy would be much closer to my situation.



You don't enter into a covenent of marriage with a figment of your imagination. You don't say "I love you" to a woman who does not exist. You see here, you spend time with her, and you fall in love. If the marriage falls apart, you cannot turn around and say, "Oh, she was just a figment of my imagination!"


You do not claim to love a figment of your imagination.



Matthew 10
Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.



nasa

[simchat_torah]

Exactly why I left Christianity. In my view, I was the only one in the covenant... there is no Jesus deity. imo, he doesn't exist. So it was a silly covenant for me to keep up as I was the only one honoring it.