The Comma...

[Bushmaster78FS]

It is one of the controversies muslims frequently bring up....

I usually find arguments and save them in my harddisk, recently I found this one...

http://www.studytoanswer.net/bibleversions/1john5n7.html

However, it is by some baptist guy and seems like don't have nice things to say for RCC, with that mindset, I wonder what he would say about the EOC. Though, in his article, he gives due to credit to Orthodox Fathers. I'd rather have an article, or a study that has been done by a priest or a monk. To me, I have always held the view that the comma is authentic and was never inserted as alleged. Though, it might have been removed by Arian, anti-trinitarian heretics.

[ClementofRome]

Being, myself, one of the "Critical Text crowd" mentioned by the author of the article, I don't think that we need to force the authenticity of
The Comma. The NT is loaded with Trinitarian language and it is implied throughout.

I do not want to get into a text critical debate here (and I am sure Bushmaster, that you did not intend to either), however.....I am just saying....

:)

[buzuxi02]

While the "comma" interpolation maybe just that, i would like to know why everyone ignores the importance of the verse directly following.

"And there are three that bear witness on earth, The Spirit, the water and the blood and these three agree as one."

Here is a clear reference to the inseperable yet distinct triple sacrament which Orthodoxy alone still maintains: Chrismation, Baptism and the Holy Eucharist.

As far as muslim arguments against the Trinity, they first need to learn what the Triune God is.

The Koran:
1. Has absolutely no knowledge of the christian understanding of the Holy Spirit and seldomly used, but atleast once in the koran used as a reference for the angel Gabriel.
2. The Virgin Mary takes its place in the Trinity.
3. Refers to it as "One of the three". Another words the belief of the koran is that sometimes Jesus or the Theotokos displaces the Father as God!

To demonstrate on the other hand the fallacies found in the koran i submit the following link: (click on the additional link to see how islamic scholars try to cover this up)


Qur'an Difficulty: Ezra, the Son of God? (http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/qb005.html)

[Dewi Sant]

"And there are three that bear witness on earth, The Spirit, the water and the blood and these three agree as one."

Here is a clear reference to the inseperable yet distinct triple sacrament which Orthodoxy alone still maintains: Chrismation, Baptism and the Holy Eucharist.

How beautiful!
I've never heard that before. :)
Well, if I looked harder at it but I'm afraid I spent little time studying the epistles :(, I preferred the accounts of the Gospel...but as things keep coming up in my theology course which I have spent little time observing, I think I ought to study the epistles more thouroughly.

[Bushmaster78FS]

No, nothing I want to argue about. I have not studied the Scripture texts and how they made it to us in depth, however, I do believe what we have today is what has been written in the first place. I do believe the witness of Comma has always been there.

On a side note, yes, buzuxi, I am aware of most arguments against and inconsistencies of Quran.

One being the arabic word for Christians, I inquired to muslims of this forum, the word used in Quran, DOES NOT identify us with Christ. We are called Nasara, according to one student of arabic, it is the "short" for Nasarallah. "Helpers of God"... This student is greek by the way, a convert to islam... Anywho, when I met Iraqis on my tour here, I tried to tell them what I was, and they didn't understand the word in English or Greek, or Turkish, but when I made the sign of the Cross, they immediately called me "Mesihi" that comes from Messiah... If that doesn't tell you something...

[Shubunkin]

It is my understanding (but I could be grossly wrong) ... is the Textus Receptus (also called the Majority Text) is the most numerous and were spread all over Europe and middle east, yet the texts all agree with each other even though they had been spread apart by space and time. Then someone finds a text called Codex Sinaiticus, or Codex Vaticanus etc., the Minority Text and claims it is "older" and it has many errors in it, yet it is declared more reliable!

I studied about this years ago. If I have my facts wrong, please let me know. I have been a proponent of the KJV for quite a while now. ;)

[Matrona]

Being, myself, one of the "Critical Text crowd" mentioned by the author of the article, I don't think that we need to force the authenticity of
The Comma. The NT is loaded with Trinitarian language and it is implied throughout.

That's me as well. I remember taking a course that covered the Johannine epistles and the professor didn't even mention the Comma controversy; IIRC he read through that passage from the NRSV *cough* and it did not include the comma. And in the end I was happier because it didn't force the class to focus on "those silly fundamentalists who actually believe in the Resurrection versus we clever kids studying textual criticism who know better", and instead we were able to discuss the sacramental implications of the verse buzuxi mentioned, immediately following the comma, which was really much more fun. :clap:

[ConanTheLibrarian]

1 John 5:7-8 DRB And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. (8) And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one.

For what it's worth, I notice that this passage is in the Douay-Rheims translation, and I assume, in the Vulgate, since the DRB is a faithful translation of the Vulgate. I appreciate the symmetry, three in Heaven and three on earth. Verse 8 doesn't make much sense without verse 7, so I would side with those who say this passage belongs. This issue is not among the things I lose sleep over, however.

The notes in my Catholic Study Bible often irritate me because they too often have a modernistic slant. They do, however, point out about such controversial passages as Mark 16:9-20; and John 8:1-11 that the Catholic Church considers them canonical. There is no such note for 1 John 5:7, and the New American Bible omits it.

[Bushmaster78FS]

1 John 5:7-8 DRB And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. (8) And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one.

For what it's worth, I notice that this passage is in the Douay-Rheims translation, and I assume, in the Vulgate, since the DRB is a faithful translation of the Vulgate. I appreciate the symmetry, three in Heaven and three on earth. Verse 8 doesn't make much sense without verse 7, so I would side with those who say this passage belongs. This issue is not among the things I lose sleep over, however.

The notes in my Catholic Study Bible often irritate me because they too often have a modernistic slant. They do, however, point out about such controversial passages as Mark 16:9-20; and John 8:1-11 that the Catholic Church considers them canonical. There is no such note for 1 John 5:7, and the New American Bible omits it.

I am surprised why we never talked about this while I was in Korea. We had discussed many other passages, but I don't recall expounding on the Comma.

I think it is amazing to see the sacramental significance St. John put in the following verse but I was hoping that the Orthodox would also defend the Comma as authentic instead of finding it controversial.

[ConanTheLibrarian]

Au contraire, I vividly remember us talking about this!

[Bushmaster78FS]

Hmmm... my brain must have conveniently logged and shelved the information away to the depths of the library. I remember the confession of St. Stephen before his death and how we connected that one, but not this.