G-d Abhors Human Sacrifice

[Zahava]

Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years, and his mother's name was Hephzibah. 2. And he did what was evil in the eyes of the Lord; like the abominations of the nations that the Lord had driven out from before the children of Israel……..6. And he passed his son through fire [/B he practiced soothsaying and divination, and he consulted necromancers and those divine by the Jidoa bone; he did much that was evil in the eyes of the Lord, to provoke [Him]……

"When the king of Moab saw that the war was too difficult for him... He then took his first-born son, who was to reign after him, and sacrificed him as a burnt offering upon the wall, and a great wrath took affect against Israel; so they turned away from Mesha and returned to the land." (2 Kings 3:26-27)

The Midrash explains that Mesha, the Moabite king, had the idea of outdoing Abraham. Abraham only placed his son Isaac on the altar but never actually sacrificed him; yet that was a sufficient demonstration of devotion to merit miraculous treatment at God's hands. How much more would God perform miracles for someone who actually went through with the sacrifice of his heir. (Tanchuma, Tisa, 5) His thinking seems to have been right on - his sacrifice actually worked! "A great wrath took affect against Israel" and they were forced to retreat.


So why is the person who sacrifices his son and demonstrates his recognition with the greatest possible intensity committing an abomination? Isn't this the very act that God asked Abraham to perform, an act whose merit lives on until the present day?

Murder is the ultimate act of separating the universe from God. Human beings are the only creatures who have the potential to reconnect the universe to its source through their acts of recognition. Every human being is the very expression of the connection. The life force and intelligence of a human being are sacred. It is the avenue through which Divine energy flows into the world. It provides us with the only glimpse of God.

When a parent sacrifices his child or a community one of its members, he asserts ownership of this Divine resource. You can only offer what is yours. It is absurd to destroy something that belongs entirely to God and then turn around and point to the very act of destruction as a demonstration of your overwhelming recognition and your utter devotion.

Abraham's test was really a rejection of human sacrifice. The readiness to offer your child to God is the ultimate act of devotion, but the actual killing of that child as an act of worship an abomination. A child is your most precious treasure but he is not your possession. You can sacrifice animals and plants to God because God awarded everything in the universe to man to make use of as a means of reconnecting the universe to God, but to sacrifice your fellow human beings is a perversion of the very purpose of human life. The spirit of God is manifest in the world only in man's intelligence. Sacrificing a human being is destroying Divinity itself as an act of worship to the very Divinity whose image you are destroying. There is no greater anathema.

And the rest of the story....

http://www.aish.com/torahportion/may... spective.asp

[B]Bottom line.......... being that the Almighty abhors human sacrifice - would He indeed go against what He abhors and kill Himself? Don't bother responding until you actually read this very short article.

[stone]

Jud 11:35And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.

***

This is one of the saddest stories i've ever read. I do have another answer, concerning Y-shua, but its not prepared and is not a quick simple statement.

[Lulav]

Have you ever heard of Dr. Michael L. Brown?


Does the Torah really forbid all human sacrifice (http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Menj/atonement1.htm)?


It is true that the Holy Bible prohibits human sacrifices, specifically the sacrifice of innocent children in connection with the worship of pagan gods. But the Doctor’s assertion that the Holy Bible "strictly forbids" human vicarious atonement is not only blatantly wrong, it is also thoroughly unJewish! Dr. Michael Brown quotes orthodox Jewish historian Rabbi Berel Wein who wrote of the sufferings of the Jews: Another consideration tinged the Jewish response to the slaughter of its people. It was an old Jewish tradition dating back to Biblical times that the death of the righteous and innocent served as expiation for the sins the nation or the world. The stories of Isaac and of Nadav and Avihu, the prophetic description of Israel as the long-suffering servant of the Lord, the sacrificial service in the Temple - all served to reinforce this basic concept of the death of the righteous as an atonement for the sins of other men.
Jews nurtured this classic idea of the death as an atonement, and this attitude towards their own tragedies was their constant companion throughout their turbulent exile. Therefore, the wholly bleak picture of unreasoning slaughter was somewhat relieved by the fact that the innocent did not die in vain and that the betterment of Israel and humankind somehow was advanced by their "stretching their neck to be slaughtered." What is amazing is that this abstract, sophisticated, theological thought should have become so ingrained in the psyche of the people that even the least educated and most simplistic of Jews understood the lesson and acted upon it, giving up precious life in a soaring act of belief and affirmation of the better tomorrow. This spirit of the Jews is truly reflected in the historical chronicle of the time:
"Would the Holy One, Blessed is he, dispense judgment without justice? But we may say that he whom God loves will be chastised. For since the day the Holy Temple was destroyed, the righteous are seized by death for the iniquities of the generation" (Yeven Metzulah, end of Chapter 15). (Brown, pp. 154-155) The following citations further support Dr. Brown’s claims: When they saw that he [Eleazar] was so courageous in the face of the afflictions, and that he had not been changed by their compassion, the guards brought him to the fire. There they burned him with maliciously contrived instruments, threw him down, and poured stinking liquids into his nostrils. When he was now burned to his very bones and about to expire, he lifted up his eyes to God and said, "You know, O God, that though I might have saved myself, I am dying in burning torments for the sake of the law. Be merciful to your people, and let our punishment suffice for them. Make my blood their purification, and take my life in exchange for theirs." And after he said this, the holy man died nobly in his tortures, and by reason he resisted even to the very tortures of death for the sake of the law. 4 Maccabees 6:24-30
For just as towers jutting out over harbors hold back the threatening waves and make it calm for those who sail into the inner basin, so the seven-towered right reason of the youths, by fortifying the harbor of religion, conquered the tempest of the emotions. For they constituted a holy chorus of religion and encouraged one another, saying, "Brothers, let us die like brothers for the sake of the law; let us imitate the three youths in Assyria who despised the same ordeal of the furnace. Let us not be cowardly in the demonstration of our piety." While one said, "Courage, brother," another said, "Bear up nobly," and another reminded them, "Remember whence you came, and the father by whose hand Isaac would have submitted to being slain for the sake of religion." Each of them and all of them together looking at one another, cheerful and undaunted, said, "Let us with all our hearts consecrate ourselves to God, who gave us our lives, and let us use our bodies as a bulwark for the law. Let us not fear him who thinks he is killing us, for great is the struggle of the soul and the danger of eternal torment lying before those who transgress the commandment of God. Therefore let us put on the full armor of self-control, which is divine reason. For if we so die, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob will welcome us, and all the fathers will praise us." Those who were left behind said to each of the brothers who were being dragged away, "Do not put us to shame, brother, or betray the brothers who have died before us." 4 Maccabees 13:6-18
"They vindicated their nation, looking to God and enduring torture even to death." Truly the contest in which they were engaged was divine, for on that day virtue gave the awards and tested them for their endurance. The prize was immortality in endless life. Eleazar was the first contestant, the mother of the seven sons entered the competition, and the brothers contended. The tyrant was the antagonist, and the world and the human race were the spectators. Reverence for God was victor and gave the crown to its own athletes. Who did not admire the athletes of the divine legislation? Who were not amazed? The tyrant himself and all his council marveled at their endurance, because of which they now stand before the divine throne and live through blessed eternity. For Moses says, "All who are consecrated are under your hands." These, then, who have been consecrated for the sake of God, are honored, not only with this honor, but also by the fact that because of them our enemies did not rule over our nation, the tyrant was punished, and the homeland purified -- they having become, as it were, a ransom for the sin of our nation. And through the blood of those devout ones and their death as an expiation, divine Providence preserved Israel that previously had been afflicted. For the tyrant Antiochus, when he saw the courage of their virtue and their endurance under the tortures, proclaimed them to his soldiers as an example for their own endurance, and this made them brave and courageous for infantry battle and siege, and he ravaged and conquered all his enemies. 2 Maccabees 17:10-24 These passages clearly show what the Jewish attitude was regarding the death of the righteous. These Jews obviously believed that their deaths did have an effect upon the nation, and even beseeched God to accept their martyrdom as atonement for Israel’s sins!
Now part of what motivated these Jews to die as martyrs was Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac: Yet the sacred and God-fearing mother did not wail with such a lament for any of them, nor did she dissuade any of them from dying, nor did she grieve as they were dying, but, as though having a mind like adamant and giving rebirth for immortality to the whole number of her sons, she implored them and urged them on to death for the sake of religion. O mother, soldier of God in the cause of religion, elder and woman! By steadfastness you have conquered even a tyrant, and in word and deed you have proved more powerful than a man. For when you and your sons were arrested together, you stood and watched Eleazar being tortured, and said to your sons in the Hebrew language, "My sons, noble is the contest to which you are called to bear witness for the nation. Fight zealously for our ancestral law. For it would be shameful if, while an aged man endures such agonies for the sake of religion, you young men were to be terrified by tortures. Remember that it is through God that you have had a share in the world and have enjoyed life, and therefore you ought to endure any suffering for the sake of God. For his sake also our father Abraham was zealous to sacrifice his son Isaac, the ancestor of our nation; and when Isaac saw his father's hand wielding a sword and descending upon him, he did not cower. And Daniel the righteous was thrown to the lions, and Hananiah, Azariah, and Mishael were hurled into the fiery furnace and endured it for the sake of God. You too must have the same faith in God and not be grieved. It is unreasonable for people who have religious knowledge not to withstand pain." By these words the mother of the seven encouraged and persuaded each of her sons to die rather than violate God's commandment. 4 Maccabees 16:12-24 What makes this rather interesting is that many Jewish sources went so far as to suggest that Isaac actually died, and by his death made atonement for Israel. Even those who didn’t believe that Isaac actually died still appealed to God to recall the binding of Isaac as a means of atonement: MY BELOVED IS UNTO ME AS A CLUSTER OF HENNA. CLUSTER refers to Isaac, who was bound on the altar like A CLUSTER OF HENNA (KOFER): because he atones (mekapper) for the iniquities of Israel. (Song of Songs Rabbah 1:14:1 — Soncino Midrash Rabbah, volume 9, second part, p. 81)
When the children of Isaac give way to transgressions and evil deeds, do Thou recollect for them the binding of their father Isaac and rise from the Throne of Judgment and betake Thee to the Throne of Mercy, and being filled with compassion for them have mercy upon them and change for them the Attribute of Justice into the Attribute of Mercy! (Leviticus Rabbah 29:9 — Soncino Midrash Rabbah, volume 4, p. 376)
In the course of time ever greater importance was attributed to the 'Akedah. The haggadistic literature is full of allusions to it; the claim to forgiveness on its account was inserted in the daily morning prayer ...
... even in the Talmud voices are raised in condemnation of its conception as a claim to atonement ... These protests were silenced by the persecutions in which Jewish fathers and mothers were so often driven to slaughter their own children in order to save them from baptism. This sacrifice is regarded as a parallel to that of Abraham ... The influence of the Christian dogma of atonement by vicarious suffering and death, it has been suggested, induced the Jews to regard the willingness of Isaac also to be sacrificed in the light of a voluntary offering of his life for the atonement of his descendants. (Rabbi Max Landsberg (1845-1928), "'Akedah," The Jewish Encyclopedia)
There was ... a remarkable tradition that insisted that Abraham completed the sacrifice and that afterward Isaac was miraculously revived… According to this haggadah, Abraham slew his son, burnt his victim, and the ashes remain as a stored-up merit and atonement for Israel in all generations. (Rabbi W. Gunther Plaut, The Torah: A Modern Commentary [New York: Union of American Hebrew Congregations, 1981], p. 151 n. 5) The NET Bible translators write:
Gen 22:8 is an important passage in the background of the title Lamb of God as applied to Jesus. In Jewish thought this was held to be a supremely important sacrifice. G. Vermès stated: "For the Palestinian Jew, all lamb sacrifice, and especially the Passover lamb and the Tamid offering, was a memorial of the AKEDAH with its effects of deliverance, forgiveness of sin and messianic salvation" (Scripture and Tradition in Judaism, 225).

you can read more from Dr Brown, he has written many books




Answering Jewish objections to Jesus vol 1 (http://www.amazon.com/Answering-Jewish-Objections-Jesus-vol/dp/080106063X/ref=pd_sim_b_1/002-5419847-5588831)

(http://www.amazon.com/Answering-Jewish-Objections-Jesus-vol/dp/080106063X/ref=pd_sim_b_1/002-5419847-5588831)
Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, vol. 3: Messianic Prophecy Objections (Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus) (http://www.amazon.com/Answering-Jewish-Objections-Jesus-vol/dp/0801064236/ref=pd_sim_b_1/002-5419847-5588831) by Michael L. Brown



Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, vol. 4: New Testament Objections (Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus) (http://www.amazon.com/Answering-Jewish-Objections-Jesus-vol/dp/0801064260/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-5419847-5588831) by Michael L. Brown

[muffler dragon]

Jud 11:35And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.

This daughter was NOT sacrified. Just thought you'd like to know.

[muffler dragon]

It is true that the Holy Bible prohibits human sacrifices, specifically the sacrifice of innocent children in connection with the worship of pagan gods. But the Doctor’s assertion that the Holy Bible "strictly forbids" human vicarious atonement is not only blatantly wrong, it is also thoroughly unJewish! Dr. Michael Brown quotes orthodox Jewish historian Rabbi Berel Wein who wrote of the sufferings of the Jews

Nothing from the Tanakh, huh?

The following citations further support Dr. Brown’s claims: These passages clearly show what the Jewish attitude was regarding the death of the righteous. These Jews obviously believed that their deaths did have an effect upon the nation, and even beseeched God to accept their martyrdom as atonement for Israel’s sins!

This is actually a red herring.

Now part of what motivated these Jews to die as martyrs was Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac:

Still nothing directly from the Tanakh.

What makes this rather interesting is that many Jewish sources went so far as to suggest that Isaac actually died, and by his death made atonement for Israel. Even those who didn’t believe that Isaac actually died still appealed to God to recall the binding of Isaac as a means of atonement:

So, a belief by the fringe is considered a universal belief?

The NET Bible translators write

What else would you expect from a Christian publication?

you can read more from Dr Brown, he has written many books

If you'd like to read refutations of Dr. Brown's points; then let me know and I'll provide the links.

[stone]

This daughter was NOT sacrified. Just thought you'd like to know.


31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

[muffler dragon]

Stone:

I partially spoke before I should have. ;)

The understanding goes both ways apparently. There are some who believe it was fulfilled and there are others who believe that she carried on in her virginity throughout the remainder of her life. The latter is what I had lodged into my memory.

I particularly found Rashi's commentary interesting on the "fulfilled" side:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.htm/aid/15819/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-11.html

38. And he said, "go," and he sent her away two months; and she went with her companions, and she cried over her virginity upon the mountains.
and she cried over her virginity Heb. בְּתוּלֶיהָ. Since it does not say “over her maidens” (בְּתוּלוֹתֶיהָ) , it implies that this refers to her actual virginity.
39. And it was at the end of two months, that she returned to her father, and he did to her his vow which he had vowed; and she had not known any man, and it was a statute in Israel.
and it was a statute They decreed that no one should do this anymore (i.e., they publicized that no one should offer a human being), because had Jephthah gone to Phinehas or vice versa, he would have nullified his (i.e., Jephthah’s) vow (i.e., he would have instructed him what the law is in such an instance). However, they were particular about their honor, and as a result she was destroyed. Consequently, they were punished; Phinehas, by the Divine presence leaving him as it is stated in (I) Chron. (9:20) “Previously God was with him,” so we see subsequently God was not with him; and Jephthah was afflicted with boils and dismemberment as it is stated, (below 12:7) “And he was buried in the cities [pl.] of Gilead.” (His limbs were buried in the various cities.) We can also interpret “And it was a statute in Israel” as connected to the following verse.

[Talmidah]

.?

[muffler dragon]

?

I wanted to search out a couple things before I posted. :D

[muffler dragon]

Stone:

I forgot to ask a question that pertains to your first post and the OP: do you believe that G-d accepted Jepthah's sacrifice IF it was fulfilled?

[Lulav]

Cool painting by Marc Chagall http://www.musees-nationaux-alpesmaritimes.fr/pages/page_id17999_u1l2.htm

[Zahava]

Have you ever heard of Dr. Michael L. Brown?



Yes, Lulav, I have heard of Dr. Brown. He is not so scholarly as you say believe him to be.

http://judaismsanswer.com/Brown-Index.htm

[Bananna]

God does not abhor self sacrifice. There is no Law against laying down ones life for another.

Bananna

[nasa1]

Human sacrifice is against that person's will.

Jesus died willingly, for He loves you.

[muffler dragon]

God does not abhor self sacrifice. There is no Law against laying down ones life for another.

Bananna

True. But there is no vicarious human sacrifice that G-d allows.

[Zahava]

True. But there is no vicarious human sacrifice that G-d allows.

So true Muffle dragon! :thumbsup:

The Prophet Ezekiel states as much!

In the 18th chapter of Ezekiel, the prophet was teaching his people a fundamental biblical principle: A righteous person cannot die vicariously for the sins of the wicked. This notion was identified as thoroughly pagan and was to be avoided by the Jewish people at all costs, and is taught emphatically throughout the 18th chapter of Ezekiel. In verses 20-23 the prophet declares that repentance alone provides full forgiveness of sin. Never are blood-sacrifices or the veneration of a crucified messiah mentioned throughout Ezekiel's thorough and inspiring discourse on sin and atonement.

Ezekiel's teaching was not new. The Jewish people were warned throughout the Torah never to offer human sacrifices. When Moses offered to have his name removed from the Torah in exchange for the sin that the Jewish people had committed with the golden calf, the Almighty abruptly refused Moses' offer.3 (http://www.outreachjudaism.org/sin.html#3) Moses, who was righteous with regard to the golden calf, could not suffer vicariously for the sin of the nation. Rather, only the soul that sinned would endure judgment.

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/sin.html

[Bananna]

True. But there is no vicarious human sacrifice that G-d allows.
No one sacrificed Yeshua but himself. The high priest prophesied that Yehsua should die for his people.

The righteous died and it attoned for the sins of the people. This made him a lamb of God. The propitiation for our sins. The reason it is lawful is because Yeshuah did this no man did it to him.

We see when the guards come to get him in the garden that when he says 'I am he' theguards fall backward on to their backs and are looking up at Yeshua as Yeshua dictates to the guards that they may not arrest any of his followers.

[Bananna]

Isa 53:5 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Isa&c=53&v=5&version=KJV#5)But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

[visionary]

God will provide Himself a lamb

[muffler dragon]

No one sacrificed Yeshua but himself. The high priest prophesied that Yehsua should die for his people.

B:

Please show me in the Tanakh where G-d accepts human vicarious atonement.

[Bananna]

B:

Please show me in the Tanakh where G-d accepts human vicarious atonement.
vicarious - in the place of another

Isa 53:
4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
"5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Jewish Publication Society translates it:
"But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed."
Bananna

[HadassahSukkot]

B:

Please show me in the Tanakh where G-d accepts human vicarious atonement.
without sounding rude or overly presumptuous, can we prove outside of the Talmud that a Tzaddik can die for his generation?

This is also like unto what Y'shua claims to have done.

Jhn 15:13 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=15&v=13&version=KJV#13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

[ContraMundum]

True. But there is no vicarious human sacrifice that G-d allows.

God doesn't allow *us* to sacrifice humans. Giving of His own will voluntarily is another thing altogether.

[ContraMundum]

Ever wondered why God has shut the door on animal sacrifices? No more priests, no more Temple, no actual sign of it being rebuilt and no prophet to declare the time to do it. Nothing happening. Why?

[visionary]

How and why did John the Baptist preach repentance... then when he sees Yeshua says "Behold the LAMB of GOD" and what was John alluding to here?

The people of that day understood. They were looking for the Messiah. They knew of the two messiahs. They knew one would be the suffering messiah.

Even the prophets and prophetesses that hung around the temple, saw Yeshua for not only who He is, but for what purpose did He come.

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

[TheRabbi]

Ever wondered why God has shut the door on animal sacrifices? No more priests, no more Temple, no actual sign of it being rebuilt and no prophet to declare the time to do it. Nothing happening. Why?
No priests!? Wow, that's news.

[stone]

I would begin to answer this by refferring to John the Immerser.

1st, are there any writeings about John the baptist from any jewish sources?

[muffler dragon]

vicarious - in the place of another


Bananna

Isaiah 53:5 says nothing of death.

[muffler dragon]

without sounding rude or overly presumptuous, can we prove outside of the Talmud that a Tzaddik can die for his generation?

I'm not a Talmudic scholar nor have I spent a great deal of time on that particular topic. However, when looking at the Tanakh, I am hard-pressed to find any acceptance of substutitionary atonement through another human being.

This is also like unto what Y'shua claims to have done.

Jhn 15:13 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=15&v=13&version=KJV#13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Yet, this is the exact same thing that Moses offered up, and G-d rejected it.

[muffler dragon]

God doesn't allow *us* to sacrifice humans. Giving of His own will voluntarily is another thing altogether.

CM:

There are many ways that I can interpret the two sentences above. Therefore, I would like to ask for clarification.

When you say that G-d doesn't allow "us" to sacrifice human beings, do you mean to say that no human can be sacrificed outside of self-sacrifice or no humans at all? And tying this into the second sentence is there something about the belief in deity incarnation that makes it permissible?

Let me know if I'm misunderstanding what you've written.

[Bananna]

God doesn't allow *us* to sacrifice humans. Giving of His own will voluntarily is another thing altogether.
Again
the priests did not sacrifice a human
we did not sacrafice a human

Yeshua gave himself up because no man had the power to sacrifice his life. He showed that when he commanded an army of men not to arrest his talmadim as the soldiers lay on the ground from where they were thrown when Yeshua simply confessed he was the one they were looking for.

Bananna

[Bananna]

I'm not a Talmudic scholar nor have I spent a great deal of time on that particular topic. However, when looking at the Tanakh, I am hard-pressed to find any acceptance of substutitionary atonement through another human being.



Yet, this is the exact same thing that Moses offered up, and G-d rejected it.
God also rejected David from building the temple. We each have our purpose.

Moses offered but another completed the task in his stead.

bananna

[muffler dragon]

God also rejected David from building the temple. We each have our purpose.

Red herring.

Moses offered but another completed the task in his stead.

bananna

I'm hard pressed to see the correlation.

[Bananna]

CM:

There are many ways that I can interpret the two sentences above. Therefore, I would like to ask for clarification.

When you say that G-d doesn't allow "us" to sacrifice human beings, do you mean to say that no human can be sacrificed outside of self-sacrifice or no humans at all? And tying this into the second sentence is there something about the belief in deity incarnation that makes it permissible?

Let me know if I'm misunderstanding what you've written.

God cannot die. Neither can the spirit in a man which Yeshua had the spirit of God without measure...
Like when the spirit of God came upon Samson and others.

It was the shell Yeshua that died and gave his life in total obedience to the Father's will. In the garden Yeshua said to the father, "yet not my will but thine"

Technically seen by the high priest to be needful to calm the unrest by sacrificing (not in the priestly sense) the man Yeshua to prevent the uprising or hard crack down of the Roman Government.

But God meant it for good, using the blood of the righteous to atone for the sins of all people perpetually than many people should be spiritually saved alive.

CM
I believe the priests do exist. They have a tabernacle built outside the city of Jeruselem as far as I know.
They need a the red heffer to burn for the ashes to cleanse the tabernacle to make it clean.

bananna

[muffler dragon]

There are some key elements that come to mind when comparing the crucifixion against a sin offering. I'm going to outline them below according to what is found in Leviticus.

Leviticus 4
27. If one person of the people of the land commits a sin unintentionally, by his committing one of the commandments of the Lord which may not be committed, incurring guilt;
28. if his sin that he committed is made known to him, he shall bring his sacrifice: an unblemished female goat, for his sin that he committed.
29. And he shall lean his hand [forcefully] on the head of the sin offering, and he shall slaughter the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.
30. And the kohen shall take some of its blood with his finger, and place [it] on the horns of the altar [used] for burnt offerings. And then he shall pour all of its [remaining] blood at the base of the altar.
31. And he shall remove all of its fat, just as the fat was removed from the peace offering. The kohen shall then cause it to [go up in] smoke on the altar, as a pleasing fragrance to the Lord. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.
32. If he brings a sheep for his sin offering, he shall bring an unblemished female.
33. He shall lean his hand [forcefully] upon the head of the sin offering and slaughter it as a sin offering in the place where he slaughters the burnt offering.
34. And the kohen shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and place [it] on the horns of the altar [used] for burnt offerings. And then he shall pour all of its blood onto the base of the altar.
35. And he shall remove all its fat, just as the sheep's fat is removed from the peace offering. The kohen shall then cause them to [go up in] smoke on the altar, upon the fires for the Lord. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for him, for his sin which he committed, and he will be forgiven.

Key Points:

1) This sacrifice is for a person of the land (not the entire world). verse 27
2) This sacrifice is for unintentional sins. verse 27
3) The sacrifice is an unblemished animal. verses 28 and 32.
4) The sinner places his/her hand on the animal. verses 29 and 33.
5) The sinnner slaughters the animal. verses 29 and 33.
6) The kohen places the blood on the horns and at the base of the altar. verses 30 and 34.
7) The kohen burns the fat upon the altar. verses 31 and 35.
8) All this takes place in the Temple walls at the altar.

In contrast to the crucifixion.

1) Jesus death supposedly covers all of humanity.
2) Jesus death supposedly covers all types of sins.
3) Jesus supposedly lived a sinless life, but that is not the same as an unblemished animal. Animal cannot sin; therefore, it's a misrepresentation.
4) No one placed their hands on Jesus for him to account for their sin.
5) No one slaughtered Jesus according to Temple criteria.
6) No one placed his blood on the altar.
7) No one placed his fat on the altar and burned it.
8) The crucifixion took place outside of the Temple walls.

There is no correlation whatsoever EXCEPT for metaphorical and allegorical considerations and hopes.

[muffler dragon]

God cannot die. Neither can the spirit in a man which Yeshua had the spirit of God without measure...
Like when the spirit of God came upon Samson and others.

It was the shell Yeshua that died and gave his life in total obedience to the Father's will. In the garden Yeshua said to the father, "yet not my will but thine"

Technically seen by the high priest to be needful to calm the unrest by sacrificing (not in the priestly sense) the man Yeshua to prevent the uprising or hard crack down of the Roman Government.

The Jewish authorities did not sacrifice Jesus. He was killed by the Romans.

But God meant it for good, using the blood of the righteous to atone for the sins of all people perpetually than many people should be spiritually saved alive.

Feel free to follow up with this consideration on my post comparing the crucifixion with a sin offering.

[GerTzedek]

Stone:

I forgot to ask a question that pertains to your first post and the OP: do you believe that G-d accepted Jepthah's sacrifice IF it was fulfilled?
Do you think HaShem would have been please if he had broken his vow?

[GerTzedek]

One of the missing elements of this discussion is that it is not someone else "sacrificing" Yeshua. It is more of a voluntary martyrdom for the sake of others, and THAT is something G-d very much approves of. THAT is something heroic. No greater love is there than this, to lay one's life doen for one's friends.

I got into an argument last Shabbat with a Messianic Jew in the Dayanu camp who was arguing that all Jews must become Yeshua-believers or they are eternally doomed. I consider that tripe. I used as an example Virginia Tech hero Professor Liviu Lebrescu, survivor of both the Nazi death camps and communist oppression; he barred the door to the classroom with his own body, and took bullets, giving all his students time to exit through the windows before he died.

He who loves knows G-d and is born of G-d.

Not only did Lebrescu clearly know G-d, but what Yeshua did was along the same lines. It was THIS kind of self sacrifice.

So don't tell me that G-d doesn't approve of this kind of sacrifice.

[Bananna]

1) Jesus death supposedly covers all of humanity.
2) Jesus death supposedly covers all types of sins.
3) Jesus supposedly lived a sinless life, but that is not the same as an unblemished animal. Animal cannot sin; therefore, it's a misrepresentation.
4) No one placed their hands on Jesus for him to account for their sin.
5) No one slaughtered Jesus according to Temple criteria.
6) No one placed his blood on the altar.
7) No one placed his fat on the altar and burned it.
8) The crucifixion took place outside of the Temple walls.

There is no correlation whatsoever EXCEPT for metaphorical and allegorical considerations and hopes.

right: it is metaphorical and allegorical. Most of the fulfilment was. Yeshua said a grain of wheat must fall to ther ground to be multiplied. He said he had to die for the Torah and return to righteousness to go out to all peoples.

The ideas presented are from oral traditions which means that it is a slippery slope for Christians to denigh all oral traditions of the Jews.
Wounded for our transgressions.

1 Yeshua only covers those that follow him and his teachings and primarily was sent only to the house of Israel to begin with.
2 The one sin that the scriptures teach cannot be covered by Yeshua's death is rejection of Yeshua as messiah
3 Yeshua was both righteous (I don't have the same standard here as some) And idicates he had no blemishes. Physically and spiritually he met what was necessary.
4 it is called laying hold of the Cross. The allegory is to cling to the idea of Christs substitutionary payment.
5 Slaughter of Yeshua according to temple standards was neither necessary nor plausible and would have been abominable. It was allegorical... comparison of the real thing to the shadow of a thing and I do mean that the blood of goats and rams could never take away sin they were always a shadow of the heavenly realm where the true high priest offers up his interecession continually before God.
6 The true alter of God is the heart in Prayer
7 the bulk of Yeshuas life was wasted by an early death
8 Allegorically the mezuzah was hung on the door post to heaven and the angels decend and acend on the son of man.

(now I'm gona go hide while all the upset people tear apart my statements)
bananna

[muffler dragon]

Do you think HaShem would have been please if he had broken his vow?

According to what I have read, had Jepthah swallowed his pride and asked the authorities for advice; then it probably wouldn't have been carried out. If I remember correctly it's a matter of weight of considerations.

[muffler dragon]

right

So, you don't believe that the crucifixion was a sin offering?

[nasa1]

One of the missing elements of this discussion is that it is not someone else "sacrificing" Yeshua. It is more of a voluntary martyrdom for the sake of others, and THAT is something G-d very much approves of. THAT is something heroic. No greater love is there than this, to lay one's life doen for one's friends.

I got into an argument last Shabbat with a Messianic Jew in the Dayanu camp who was arguing that all Jews must become Yeshua-believers or they are eternally doomed. I consider that tripe. I used as an example Virginia Tech hero Professor Liviu Lebrescu, survivor of both the Nazi death camps and communist oppression; he barred the door to the classroom with his own body, and took bullets, giving all his students time to exit through the windows before he died.

He who loves knows G-d and is born of G-d.

Not only did Lebrescu clearly know G-d, but what Yeshua did was along the same lines. It was THIS kind of self sacrifice.

So don't tell me that G-d doesn't approve of this kind of sacrifice.




If you reject Jesus, yes, you are doomed to hell.

You can call it tripe all you want, it's scripture.


You are saying that if a person sacrifices himself, he will be saved by that act. That's unbiblical, for no work man does can save his or her own soul. Just because you give your life for others in the holocaust, that doesn't mean that you will be saved by that act!

Salvation is of the L-rd, the act of G-d. No man can do any work to save himself. Faith is a gift from G-d as well. You cannot deny the Messiah Yeshua but expect to get into heaven because you did some sort of heroic act.


nasa

[Bananna]

So, you don't believe that the crucifixion was a sin offering?

Technically the righteous died for the sins of the people the unrighteous Jews, mostly he saved the Jewish leaders getting in a lot of hot water.

Not sure how to put this brother,
Yes and no

His self sacrifice did carry away sin. It brought us to God... well those of us that follow Yeshua were brought to God. Paul calls it being a living sacrifice.

Taking Paul too literally can really mess up your theology.

I mean think about it. He teaches Christ as the High priest and Christ as the lamb of God. EWWWWW that kind of self sacrifice is suicide.

Bananna

[GerTzedek]

So, anyone going going to reply to my post comparing Yeshua to Librescu?

[Bananna]

Feel free to reply.
Yeshua is to me uncomparible self sacrifice. Thus greater than Moses. Moses prophesied a prophet would come after him that was greater.

Messiah chosen from among his bretheren to save his people. Moses showed them lawlessness compared to lawfulness. Yeshua showed them it was possible to be lawful and loving.

bananna

[ContraMundum]

CM
I believe the priests do exist. They have a tabernacle built outside the city of Jeruselem as far as I know.
They need a the red heffer to burn for the ashes to cleanse the tabernacle to make it clean.

bananna

Yep, I've heard the rumour. Back to slaying animals. Poor things.

Ever wonder why the blood of innocent animals was said to atone for sins?

So, anyone going going to reply to my post comparing Yeshua to Librescu?

This whole thread is pretty bizzare. I'm actually kind of astounded that people find this confusing. You've made a point.

The point no one is addressing is that there are numerous ways to look at the atonement. I can't be bothered explaning it. Maybe you could have a go Ger.

[GerTzedek]

[quote=ContraMundum;38664973]Yep, I've heard the rumour. Back to slaying animals. Poor things.

Ever wonder why the blood of innocent animals was said to atone for sins?
quote]
Contra:

The point is to be obedient to HaShem, even if we don't understand why. The animal sacrifices were commanded.

The theology of what Yeshua did became more complex over the years in response to misuse of metaphors. For example, the earlier metaphors were triumph over death, rescue us breaking the chains of our bondage to sin, and redemption--we are imprisoned, and he paid the cost to redeem us. The early church also pointed to Yeshua's act as one of obedience, an act of example to emulate. It was later in history that the metaphor became that of atonement. This theology seeks to resolve much greater problems: that sin has broken the relationship between God and mankind; that we are seperated from God and a slave to sin and death. Most importantly, sin also places humans under God's wrath and curse that must be ended. A price must be paid -- Yeshua paid that price.

Many Christians as well have raised the same question that our Jewish friend has raised: what kind of G-d would accept the suffering of an innocent to asuage the punishment of the guilty? It is a good question. Just as the metaphors before atonement had their flaws, this metaphor has its flaw. ALL METAPHORS HAVE FLAWS. My oldest brother practically froths at the mouth when atonement doctrine is discussed.

The present pope wrote on this subject in 1968, in his book, Introduction to Christianity. As not everyone here is peachy on the pope, I don't want to go too much into it. I'm certainly not advocating Catholicism. But it is interesting that while he doesn't throw any of the former metaphors out the window, he does point out this flaw in atonement theology and proposes a deeper understanding for consideration. He states, “It [the cross] does not stand there as a work of expiation which mankind offers to…God” (Ratzinger 215). The problem is, what he DOES propose is so difficult to understand, that most people CAN'T. SSPX is constantly accusing him of ditching redemption theology for example.

And so it goes...

Next headline?

[Lulav]

Yes, Lulav, I have heard of Dr. Brown. He is not so scholarly as you say believe him to be.

http://judaismsanswer.com/Brown-Index.htm

Hmm, all I asked you was:
Have you ever heard of Dr. Michael L. Brown? and then gave you some links to books he has written, I never said anything about how scholarly he was or anything about what I thought of him, that is all your supposition.

No need to get defensive, I truly thought you wanted to learn, not debate.

Carry on. :wave:

[ContraMundum]

Contra:

The point is to be obedient to HaShem, even if we don't understand why. The animal sacrifices were commanded.

Yeah, but ever wonder why?


ALL METAPHORS HAVE FLAWS.

Amen.

The present pope wrote on this subject in 1968, in his book, Introduction to Christianity. As not everyone here is peachy on the pope, I don't want to go too much into it.

He's pretty switched on. You could do worse. :)

SSPX is constantly accusing him of ditching redemption theology for example.

Typical of them though. They were drooling when he was elected, but now that he won't be their lap dog, they are turning on him, just like they do with all the curia.

[philemon]

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.


Why do you think he said this? What was he expecting to come out of his doors to meet him?:scratch:

[philemon]

Stone:

I partially spoke before I should have. ;)

The understanding goes both ways apparently. There are some who believe it was fulfilled and there are others who believe that she carried on in her virginity throughout the remainder of her life. The latter is what I had lodged into my memory.

I particularly found Rashi's commentary interesting on the "fulfilled" side:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.htm/aid/15819/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-11.html

38. And he said, "go," and he sent her away two months; and she went with her companions, and she cried over her virginity upon the mountains.
and she cried over her virginity Heb. בְּתוּלֶיהָ. Since it does not say “over her maidens” (בְּתוּלוֹתֶיהָ) , it implies that this refers to her actual virginity.
39. And it was at the end of two months, that she returned to her father, and he did to her his vow which he had vowed; and she had not known any man, and it was a statute in Israel.
and it was a statute They decreed that no one should do this anymore (i.e., they publicized that no one should offer a human being), because had Jephthah gone to Phinehas or vice versa, he would have nullified his (i.e., Jephthah’s) vow (i.e., he would have instructed him what the law is in such an instance). However, they were particular about their honor, and as a result she was destroyed. Consequently, they were punished; Phinehas, by the Divine presence leaving him as it is stated in (I) Chron. (9:20) “Previously God was with him,” so we see subsequently God was not with him; and Jephthah was afflicted with boils and dismemberment as it is stated, (below 12:7) “And he was buried in the cities [pl.] of Gilead.” (His limbs were buried in the various cities.) We can also interpret “And it was a statute in Israel” as connected to the following verse.


Why do you think Jepthah offered whatever comes out of his doors to meet him as a burnt offering?

What was he expecting to come out of his doors when he made that vow? :scratch:

[HadassahSukkot]

maybe a pet lamb? a dove..?

Who knows... Jepthah lived so long ago, how can we truly know his mind without having met him? Let's give the man the benefit of the doubt..

[GerTzedek]

At my house it would definitely have been the cat.

[visionary]

maybe a pet lamb? a dove..?

Who knows... Jepthah lived so long ago, how can we truly know his mind without having met him? Let's give the man the benefit of the doubt..Yes, I am sure that in his mind, it was a revelation that God would show that your most beloved child is the one? Gives us a glimpse of what God must have felt.

[Bananna]

Why do you think Jepthah offered whatever comes out of his doors to meet him as a burnt offering?

What was he expecting to come out of his doors when he made that vow? :scratch:

Maybe the Dog. Dogs are usually first to know when a master is home and run to greet them. Why did God knowing the vow let the daughter come out first?

It never says he took her life, but how else could one offer a burnt offering.

[philemon]

Why did God knowing the vow let the daughter come out first?

It never says he took her life, but how else could one offer a burnt offering.


That's what I'm wondering. What do you think? I don't know what to make of it.

[philemon]

Yes, I am sure that in his mind, it was a revelation that God would show that your most beloved child is the one? Gives us a glimpse of what God must have felt.


What do you mean?

[visionary]

What do you mean?Conversation in heaven...

God the Father... You know if we give these images of us the power of freewill, they could choose not to obey what we tell them for their own good.

Son of God... Yep, I am afraid so.

God the Father.. OK, think for a moment, if they do then the natural consequence of disobedience will be like a domino effect and we could lose the whole human race.

Son of God... Yep, I am afraid so.

God the Father... We need to stop the domino effect.

Son of God.. Yep, I am afraid so.

God, the Father... You have already been thinking what I am think, haven't you?

Son of God... Yep, I am afraid so.

God, the Father... IT will take a sacrifice of one who knew no sin.

Son of God .. .Yep, I am afraid so.

God, the Father.. Have you got this plan of redemption all laid out?

Son of God.. Yep, I am afraid so.

God, the Father... Hmmm [looking over the plan sealed with seven seals]I do believe this will work. Are you willing to do this? [thinking to Himself, "when I ask Abraham to sacrifice his only son, he will get the picture of how hard it was for me to do this.] Are you sure? [think to Himself, "when this vow is made, I will not turn back, just as Jepthah will follow through, though the thought will hurt him as it does me.]

Son of God... Yep, I am afraid so.

God, the Father... Then my Son you will be my Only Begotton Son, with whom I am well pleased.

[ContraMundum]

At my house it would definitely have been the cat.


Can a goldfish walk?

[philemon]

Conversation in heaven...

God the Father... You know if we give these images of us the power of freewill, they could choose not to obey what we tell them for their own good.

Son of God... Yep, I am afraid so.

God the Father.. OK, think for a moment, if they do then the natural consequence of disobedience will be like a domino effect and we could lose the whole human race.

Son of God... Yep, I am afraid so.

God the Father... We need to stop the domino effect.

Son of God.. Yep, I am afraid so.

God, the Father... You have already been thinking what I am think, haven't you?

Son of God... Yep, I am afraid so.

God, the Father... IT will take a sacrifice of one who knew no sin.

Son of God .. .Yep, I am afraid so.

God, the Father.. Have you got this plan of redemption all laid out?

Son of God.. Yep, I am afraid so.

God, the Father... Hmmm [looking over the plan sealed with seven seals]I do believe this will work. Are you willing to do this? [thinking to Himself, "when I ask Abraham to sacrifice his only son, he will get the picture of how hard it was for me to do this.] Are you sure? [think to Himself, "when this vow is made, I will not turn back, just as Jepthah will follow through, though the thought will hurt him as it does me.]

Son of God... Yep, I am afraid so.

God, the Father... Then my Son you will be my Only Begotton Son, with whom I am well pleased.


So you're likening Japthah's experience to the Father and Son?

How so? :scratch:

I understand the general gist of what you're saying about sacrifice, but Japthah didn't realize until his daughter came out what he would have to do, so I'm still a bit perplexed at what you mean....

[visionary]

When making a vow, your committment may be harder in the follow through than you realize.

[philemon]

When making a vow, your committment may be harder in the follow through than you realize.


Ah, yes, indeed.

Ecclesiastes 5:5.