Problems starting in school

[rainbowbright]

Our oldest son, who will be five at the end of the month, goes to a private Catholic school and his teachers know he's Orthodox especially because he keeps reminding them:thumbsup: . However he informed us that yesterday during the mass, they kept trying to 'correct' him when he was blessing himself and they gave him half a yellow day (green is a good day, yellow is not so good, and red is aweful) because he wasn't behaving well in mass which we aren't really sure how to interpret this. Should we let them teach my son how to bless himself the Catholic why, or should we be strict about our practices even though he's at a Catholic school, or should we pull him out and just send him to a public school? Just lookig for input because we were told that they have the best education system in the state and allow non-catholics to go there, but so far, they seem to be very disorganized. Thanks

[cobweb]

I would have a talk with his teacher and express your concerns before I considered pulling him out of the school. It is possible that they are not aware that this is important to you.

[vanshan]

I had thought about RC private school for our children, but was afraid of little influence like that. I would speak with whoever is in chapel correcting him . . . I think the public school influences would be much much worse, though-- so if the choice is dealing with things like that or public schools, I'd just hold your ground as much as possible and grin and bear it the best you can.

My three children are being homeschooled. In fact, my area has a couple homeschool co-ops that pool parents to teach different subjects one day a week to suppliment what we teach at home. It's like private school on the cheap . . . so far we're very happy with it.

Basil

[Shubunkin]

Well, if it were my son, I'd teach him both ways, tell him the difference, and see if he can remember which way to do it and where. If he can't handle that, yet, then perhaps that would be the time to talk to his teacher.

Note: This is probably a stupid suggestion... I was just thinking of a way that would be easier for your son. Perhaps?

[MamaBug]

Wow, this seems to tie in so well with the thread on how to behave in an RCC church....

I would setup an appointment to talk with the teacher and school authorities to see if this is going to be a make-or-break issue. I believe Eastern Rite Catholics use the same form of the Cross as we, so a good question is to what extent is conformism mandatory.

This could all very well be a misunderstanding about school policy on the part of the teacher. It is best to nip things like this in the bud as early as possible.

[rainbowbright]

Thanks everyone. My husband did write a letter to the teachers asking them to please not correct him because he is doing it right according to Orthodox standards. I'm not too sure what would be best for him, if he should learn there way because he is very influential as we found out when my mom put hik in vbs at her Methodist church- we had to undo a lot of what they taught him.
I was thinking of homeschooling him, and I wish we still had the school at our church because that would be a great option, but it no longer exists and I don't know if I'd have patience with him, especially with three younger children in the house.

[RobNJ]

Shouldn't the teacher be paying attention to the Mass? ;)

[cobweb]

I was thinking of homeschooling him, and I wish we still had the school at our church because that would be a great option, but it no longer exists and I don't know if I'd have patience with him, especially with three younger children in the house.
Don't feel bad. Homeschooling isn't an option for everyone. I know that it wouldn't be a good idea for our family (and I am saying that as someone who was homeschooled as a kid).

[vanshan]

I've even read at a Roman Catholic website that the way we cross ourselves is the ancient way that even the RCC originally practiced, so maybe they can be educated about this and perhaps they'll start doing it from right to left as we do.

Well, just a thought.

Basil the not-so-helpful

[Kristos]

Explain why it's different, then let him choose.

[MamaBug]

I'm not too sure what would be best for him, if he should learn there way because he is very influential as we found out when my mom put hik in vbs at her Methodist church- we had to undo a lot of what they taught him.

He's five - they are influenced by everything! It really comes down to where the best education is and which influence you'd rather fight - the common marketplace of public schools or the doctrine of another religion. If it helps, I know lots of protestants who went to catholic schools for the education and didn't come out catholic.

[fuerein]

I'm surprised they're making such an issue of it. I attended a Catholic parochial school for several years as a protestant and they never forced me to do anything specifically Catholic (i.e. sign of the cross, Hail Mary, etc.), the most they really had me do was occasionally act as one of the readers during the Mass (a duty passed around all the older students at the school). They tried to get me to act as an alterboy my first year until I reminded them that I wasn't Catholic and it might not be in their best interests to have a protestant boy fumbling around the sanctuary... Though getting to play with the lit coals kinda sounded fun. :)

[Jacob4707]

Do they similarly get on Jewish students, assuming they have any? Also, you could remind them of the Byzantine-Rite Catholics who are Pope-approved and apparently have a "mass"/Divine Liturgy very similar to what Orthodox have, and even cross themselves right-to-left and omit the filioque.

[rusmeister]

My two cents, that I think ought to be worth at least $20 (this IS a question about public schools - please see my bio and sub-title), is that it is far easier to get a Catholic school to cooperate with you - they do want your money, and in the ways that usually matter most to them, you ARE 'Catholic' - than to try to do the tremendous damage that will surely be caused at public schools, when you add it all up.
Catholics at least teach that there IS truth. From there, you just have to make sure your children get lead to the correct truth. Public schools teach your kid that there is NO truth. This is far more destructive to faith in general. Never mind the gay-lesbian-straight 'alliances' now encouraged on many middle and most high school campuses...

[rainbowbright]

Never mind the gay-lesbian-straight 'alliances' now encouraged on many middle and most high school campuses...

Thanks for your input- I think it's worth maybe $100. What you posted the exact reason I won't send my kids to public school. I even heard that the gltb alliances start in kindergarten

[VickiY]

Given that any Eastern Catholics cross themselves as the Orthodox do, I would simply inform the teacher that your son has been taught the correct form of crossing himself for his religion, and further that this form is obviously acceptable to Catholics, as the Eastern Catholics use this, so there will be no more making the child feel inferior doing what is correct. (You will need this when he refuses to say the Creed with the filioque, just like Eastern Catholics do not ;) ) I'd also make it clear that you do not want him partaking in the sacraments at Mass, as the Catholics will allow this, but the Orthodox absolutely do not.

[rainbowbright]

Given that any Eastern Catholics cross themselves as the Orthodox do, I would simply inform the teacher that your son has been taught the correct form of crossing himself for his religion, and further that this form is obviously acceptable to Catholics, as the Eastern Catholics use this, so there will be no more making the child feel inferior doing what is correct. (You will need this when he refuses to say the Creed with the filioque, just like Eastern Catholics do not ;) ) I'd also make it clear that you do not want him partaking in the sacraments at Mass, as the Catholics will allow this, but the Orthodox absolutely do not.

I've already mentioned hime not being able to take the sacraments but they said they don't take them until 2nd grade and it's their choice whether they want to or not- I'm still going to have to find a way to make sure he doesn't get them at all.

[rainbowbright]

Given that any Eastern Catholics cross themselves as the Orthodox do, I would simply inform the teacher that your son has been taught the correct form of crossing himself for his religion, and further that this form is obviously acceptable to Catholics, as the Eastern Catholics use this, so there will be no more making the child feel inferior doing what is correct. (You will need this when he refuses to say the Creed with the filioque, just like Eastern Catholics do not ;) ) I'd also make it clear that you do not want him partaking in the sacraments at Mass, as the Catholics will allow this, but the Orthodox absolutely do not.

I've already mentioned to them about him not being able to take the sacraments but they said they don't take them until 2nd grade and it's their choice whether they want to or not- I'm still going to have to find a way to make sure he doesn't get them at all.

[DarkNLovely]

Forgive me, but this really does sound like bias! If they don't make anyone else do it, he shouldn't be made to do it either! Why do they think it's so important for him to do it their way?

[EmperorConstantine]

Ask why they're jealous that he crosses himself correctly ;)



Seriously though, the teachers should respect his crossing himself not Roman style. I'd almost say ask your priest about this (the textbook Orthodox response! ;))

[buzuxi02]

I'm in the minority camp that you pull him out.
reasons:

1.Some believe that by sending them to an rc school it will instill better morality, but in reality a great many rc students have a "rage against the machine" mentality. The girls go out of their way to be 'naughty' and in my parts its even fashionable to be such. Its a stereotype but unfortunately a stereotype from within not from external rumors and urban legends.

2. I'm surprised they dont have an 'opt out' clause for attending services. I adhere to the canons that forbids praying with and in heterodox temples. And saying that the student may choose to recieve communion whether he is rc or not raises red flags.
3. Save the money your spending on the rc school and treat yourselves to an annual pilgrimage to somewhere. When he gets older send him to Ionian Village camp. Encourage him to join the cub scouts, etc.

[Dorothea]

Our oldest son, who will be five at the end of the month, goes to a private Catholic school and his teachers know he's Orthodox especially because he keeps reminding them:thumbsup: . However he informed us that yesterday during the mass, they kept trying to 'correct' him when he was blessing himself and they gave him half a yellow day (green is a good day, yellow is not so good, and red is aweful) because he wasn't behaving well in mass which we aren't really sure how to interpret this. Should we let them teach my son how to bless himself the Catholic why, or should we be strict about our practices even though he's at a Catholic school, or should we pull him out and just send him to a public school? Just lookig for input because we were told that they have the best education system in the state and allow non-catholics to go there, but so far, they seem to be very disorganized. Thanks
Awww, I'm sorry they're being so strict and tough on him, rainbow bright. The Episcopal school - St. Stephen's, I told you about, my boys are loving. My youngest can barely wait to go to pre-k 4 every day! So, this turned out to be a good choice for my boys. It's a personal decision, but I would talk to the teachers first. If they won't compromise, I wouldn't feel too comfortable with that. I'm just started to read this thread, so I apologize in advance if you've already come to some conclusion to this.

[rusmeister]

I sympathize with buzuxi's POV, and would agree that if there were a better alternative (I personally can only see homeschooling, an actual Orthodox school or a parent-cooperative hybrid of home and collective schooling as such) it would be good to not go this route.

But I say again as a former public school teacher that the damage caused by the unofficial yet de facto curriculum of pluralism - the ideology of public education - is incalcuable; relativistic pluralism is the greatest danger of our time.

The important thing is not so much what your child will be doing now, as what he/she will be trained or indoctrinated to see and do as an adult. This training colors the world view and all the decisions that they will make. It ultimately impacts on their choices as adults to believe or not believe. It trains them to become compliant and passive consumers. Everyone will go through some kind of period of rebellion, but the old Biblical saw - Bring up a child in the way that he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it. is still true.

In sending your child to public school you are turning your child over to teachers and administrators that have expressly been indoctrinated in pluralism that operate in a system designed to teach the child to passivity over 13 years of sitting at a desk - when they are finished, they are not 'qualified' for much in our society beyond work at McDonald's or Target or truck driving, and must go to college to be considered qualified for anything more. (Is that why I spent 13 years at a desk, jumping from bell to bell?)

The teachers do not expressly and openly teach pluralism, but it is thoroughly woven into the policies, rules and staff training designed to prevent any beliefs or moral codes being considered as true.

Hasn't anyone noticed the slogans flooding society like "Have your say", "Your opinion matters", "Come vote now!" "What do you think?"? Now imagine this kind of attitude in the Church.

At best you get Protestantism. At worst - you get the chaotic soup that we have in the world today.

[EmperorConstantine]

Rusmeister, you are absolutely correct.

Its like what was on the Murphy's Law calendar one day, "He who tolerates everything, respects nothing."

And that is very true. We're in the school being taught to tolerate everybody (even those who may indulge in cannibalism) yet, some how supposed to have dignity even though one's own cat was just stolen and sacrificed for a neighbor's religious purposes.

Sad, isn't it? We're eating the arm that's holding our hands in place.


With this in mind, I say pray that we can have more Orthodox schools.

[paleodoxy]

With this in mind, I say pray that we can have more Orthodox schools.

Amen, brother!

And amen to your post too, rusmeister!

[DarkNLovely]

As far as public schools, it is wrong to allow anybody to have that kind of control over your kids. That is why it is the parents job to keep tight reighn over their children. They do not have to take word for word everything the teachers tell them. My mom was CONSTANTLY involved with my school life and we had to fight the system so many times because I would refuse to comply with certain things in the schools- and she always had my back. In some ways I can see what they are talking about, but at the same time, it is not the job of the school to raise the children and teach them values- it's the job of the family. A well adjusted responsible family teaching responsible and sound morals and values will always have greater influence over the children then the schools. The real problem is that too many parents, sadly of course, look to the schools to do their job. They allow work and other potential distractions to be their poor excuse for not doing better for the people they are responsible for. My question is this: If one is doing all they should as a parent, like the OP, then how could their child come out a machine of the system? We clearly hear how her son is confidently making his faith known and standing up for himself, and his parents are also standing up for him.That being said, it is obvious from the case we are talking about in particular that the mind control phenomenon is not unique to the public school system.

[Kristos]

Just send them directly to the monastary, so they never have to deal with the world.

[rainbowbright]

Just send them directly to the monastary, so they never have to deal with the world.

I don't know, my son would get kicked out because he asks WAY too many questions

[paleodoxy]

Just send them directly to the monastary, so they never have to deal with the world.

Just feed them to the sharks from the most formative and impressionable time in their lives, so they are ill equipped to deal with the world.

[Shubunkin]

Just send them directly to the monastary, so they never have to deal with the world.
That's what I should have done with my kids. :P

[Shubunkin]

My sister home-schooled her four kids. As the oldest ones got older, they helped out. Don't be afraid of home-schooling. That is, if things get out of hand for you.

[rainbowbright]

My sister home-schooled her four kids. As the oldest ones got older, they helped out. Don't be afraid of home-schooling. That is, if things get out of hand for you.

I'm seriously thinking that if things get out of hand, that is what will happen, especially because we're thinking of moving out to cowboy country and it would be too far a drive back to town.

[Shubunkin]

I'm seriously thinking that if things get out of hand, that is what will happen, especially because we're thinking of moving out to cowboy country and it would be too far a drive back to town.
Which reminds me of a question I've always wanted to ask... is there such a thing as an Orthodox homeschool program? If not, there should be one! :)

[rainbowbright]

Which reminds me of a question I've always wanted to ask... is there such a thing as an Orthodox homeschool program? If not, there should be one! :)

Yes there is. My church used to have one and it was a really good school. It was three days a week and it had arithmatics, reading, writing, history, you name it. The director, who was a parishoner, ran off with some married man, who was also Orthodox so she was excommunicated and the school collapsed. I wish there was a way to bring it back.

[rusmeister]

As far as public schools, it is wrong to allow anybody to have that kind of control over your kids. That is why it is the parents job to keep tight reighn over their children. They do not have to take word for word everything the teachers tell them. My mom was CONSTANTLY involved with my school life and we had to fight the system so many times because I would refuse to comply with certain things in the schools- and she always had my back. In some ways I can see what they are talking about, but at the same time, it is not the job of the school to raise the children and teach them values- it's the job of the family. A well adjusted responsible family teaching responsible and sound morals and values will always have greater influence over the children then the schools. The real problem is that too many parents, sadly of course, look to the schools to do their job. They allow work and other potential distractions to be their poor excuse for not doing better for the people they are responsible for. My question is this: If one is doing all they should as a parent, like the OP, then how could their child come out a machine of the system? We clearly hear how her son is confidently making his faith known and standing up for himself, and his parents are also standing up for him.That being said, it is obvious from the case we are talking about in particular that the mind control phenomenon is not unique to the public school system.
Your observation about parental involvement is very true.

However, it is a slight misunderstanding to understand the indoctrination I'm talking about as mind-control. Say rather, mind formation, so that at a later time in life the person will respond the way they were conditioned to, so that when they hear the words 'intolerant' and 'discriminate', they will frown, and when they hear the word 'diverse' they will smile. When they encounter the Orthodox Church they will perceive its practices as intolerant and discriminatory, and its insistence on Tradition, absolute Truth and that there is only one Church as lacking in diversity, etc.

Their minds are not controlled, but they have been formed, and they perceive absolutely everything in life through the lens of the philosophy guiding public education.

Yes, parents who work hard can counteract the conditioning to an extent, but it's a tremendous struggle. Every day seeds of doubt are being planted as to the truth that mom and dad talk about by the school. Parents speak of overarching Truth only to have it said everywhere at school that everyone has their own truth. Parents say that sex is for marriage and children, and schools make condoms available and encourage sexual sin. It's amazing how many parents believe that schools do not harm children.

The philosophy permeates everything - it is NOT a 'subject' which is taught - it is the lens through which everything is seen and therefore taught. You won't hear pluralism or relativism talked about much. But if a teacher openly opposes it, they won't hold their job long. If a child opposes it, they will smile and say, "How nice! You have a belief! That's wonderful! We have beliefs, too!"

[MariaRegina]

Shouldn't the teacher be paying attention to the Mass? ;)


:thumbsup:

You are correct there. If the teacher is looking every which way, well, the student will also.

*She be still lookin at me?

[MariaRegina]

If the child must cross himself the way the Romans do, then when he goes East, he may get confused and cross the way the Romans do.

In my church, a little boy accidentally crossed himself the way the Romans do just because he got confused and the other little boys beat him up for doing so.

[MsDahl]

Hi, my post is a bit long as there were so many wonderful points to address in this thread.

It really comes down to where the best education is and which influence you'd rather fight - the common marketplace of public schools or the doctrine of another religion.

MamaBug, you boiled down the crux of the issue here so simply, if we are not referring to homeschooling, the struggle is between what you stated. I am starting to think that it would be easier to counteract the marketplace of public education over the doctrine of another religion. However, at the end of the day, the other religion is not a different faith. The same faith is being taught and that may be helpful in the decision. One I shall be making for my son in a few more years.

I even heard that the gltb alliances start in kindergarten

What? Where have you heard that? I find this to be a bit hard to believe.

I'm still going to have to find a way to make sure he doesn't get them at all.

I attended Catholic School for 4 years during elementary school and I was exempt from receiving communion being that I was an Orthodox Christian. I thought that was the common treatment as I also worked as a Catholic school teacher and I was only allowed to let the Catholic children receive communion. Non-Catholics were allowed to go up front and receive a blessing (they were required to cross their arms on their bodies to let the priest know they are not receiving communion).

Some believe that by sending them to an rc school it will instill better morality, but in reality a great many rc students have a "rage against the machine" mentality. The girls go out of their way to be 'naughty' and in my parts its even fashionable to be such. Its a stereotype but unfortunately a stereotype from within not from external rumors and urban legends.

The bulk of my education came out of public education (that's including post secondary education). I spent 4 years of all my years in non-public school. I agree with your reason #1. The local catholic high school girls were all known for being 'naughty' as you put it. They enjoyed rolling their skirts up as high as they could get away with and the uniform was treated as a sexual ploy.

The important thing is not so much what your child will be doing now, as what he/she will be trained or indoctrinated to see and do as an adult. This training colors the world view and all the decisions that they will make. It ultimately impacts on their choices as adults to believe or not believe. It trains them to become compliant and passive consumers.

rusmeister, you place way too much power to the school system. I am a parent, a teacher by profession, received most of my education via public schools (some of which were full of negativity). I also had a mother who was suffering (still is) with Multiple Sclerosis, two brothers who were out of control and a father who was mostly not attentive. I managed to grow up quite opposite of what you described. I am fairly traditional compared to my generation, very devout in my faith, believe in the mother's place as the home during the formative years, anti president bashing, etc. All of this and I was basically "on my own" in life and just had the hand of God upon me from birth.

It states in Matthew 7 that if we build our foundations on the rock, it will stand tall: Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts upon them, may be compared to a wise man, who built his house upon the rock. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded upon the rock. One day we all must send our children out into the world away from the safety of our protection. If the first time this happens is your child's first day of college, how do you expect him to withstand life's pressures? I would prefer to start a bit earlier (junior high is a good place because developmentally their foundation is pretty much set) so that I can help him navigate the rough waters of the world.

In sending your child to public school you are turning your child over to teachers and administrators that have expressly been indoctrinated in pluralism that operate in a system designed to teach the child to passivity over 13 years of sitting at a desk - when they are finished, they are not 'qualified' for much in our society beyond work at McDonald's or Target or truck driving, and must go to college to be considered qualified for anything more. (Is that why I spent 13 years at a desk, jumping from bell to bell?)

I find your comments here extremely biased. Have you had bad experiences in your own life? I do not agree with your grim outlook on public education at all. I graduated high school with 9 college credits, a completed internship in a local law firm and became a certified peer mediator of which I still use the skills I learned at 14 to the present day.

The teachers do not expressly and openly teach pluralism, but it is thoroughly woven into the policies, rules and staff training designed to prevent any beliefs or moral codes being considered as true.

I am a teacher trained by public graduate school and I don't understand what you are saying. The only thing I remember being ingrained in me is to separate church and state. If a child questioned me about the cross on my neck, I was instructed to tell the child that it had to do with my faith and that they were to ask their parent what if they wanted to know more.

Hasn't anyone noticed the slogans flooding society like "Have your say", "Your opinion matters", "Come vote now!" "What do you think?"? Now imagine this kind of attitude in the Church.

I fail to see what is wrong with the slogans you brought up.


A well adjusted responsible family teaching responsible and sound morals and values will always have greater influence over the children then the schools. The real problem is that too many parents, sadly of course, look to the schools to do their job. They allow work and other potential distractions to be their poor excuse for not doing better for the people they are responsible for.

I completely agree with your sentiments presented here, DarknLovely!!! That was one of my biggest issues as a teacher, I was saddened that I was responsible to not just teach my students academics but I had to teach them values and morals. I worked in the Bronx school district (Catholic though) so my experience may not be the norm across the nation of US.

Say rather, mind formation, so that at a later time in life the person will respond the way they were conditioned to, so that when they hear the words 'intolerant' and 'discriminate', they will frown, and when they hear the word 'diverse' they will smile. When they encounter the Orthodox Church they will perceive its practices as intolerant and discriminatory, and its insistence on Tradition, absolute Truth and that there is only one Church as lacking in diversity, etc.

First of all, too many Christians have killed others in the name of God (example Crusades) because they would not "tolerate" the ways of "evil men", so I think it is funny you continue to pit the public schools as this evil entity. There are many public schools that have active PTA systems where parents are welcomed to be a presence in their child's classroom. There are ways to "infiltrate" the public schools as a parent.

Yes, parents who work hard can counteract the conditioning to an extent, but it's a tremendous struggle. Every day seeds of doubt are being planted as to the truth that mom and dad talk about by the school. Parents speak of overarching Truth only to have it said everywhere at school that everyone has their own truth. Parents say that sex is for marriage and children, and schools make condoms available and encourage sexual sin. It's amazing how many parents believe that schools do not harm children.You are discussing high school issues and this thread is in regards to a 5 year old! lol I do completely agree with you though about the seeds of doubt being planted. That is my main concern about anything out in the world and that is why I want to make my son's foundation ultra sturdy. Also, my child could be a light onto the world in the public schools. That is another area that hasn't been mentioned.



If you read all that, dang, you are good. I appreciate the time you invested in me and my thoughts. Even if you disagree, the fact that you were willing to give me an audience is appreciated :)

[Dorothea]

I sympathize with buzuxi's POV, and would agree that if there were a better alternative (I personally can only see homeschooling, an actual Orthodox school or a parent-cooperative hybrid of home and collective schooling as such) it would be good to not go this route.

But I say again as a former public school teacher that the damage caused by the unofficial yet de facto curriculum of pluralism - the ideology of public education - is incalcuable; relativistic pluralism is the greatest danger of our time.

The important thing is not so much what your child will be doing now, as what he/she will be trained or indoctrinated to see and do as an adult. This training colors the world view and all the decisions that they will make. It ultimately impacts on their choices as adults to believe or not believe. It trains them to become compliant and passive consumers. Everyone will go through some kind of period of rebellion, but the old Biblical saw - is still true.

In sending your child to public school you are turning your child over to teachers and administrators that have expressly been indoctrinated in pluralism that operate in a system designed to teach the child to passivity over 13 years of sitting at a desk - when they are finished, they are not 'qualified' for much in our society beyond work at McDonald's or Target or truck driving, and must go to college to be considered qualified for anything more. (Is that why I spent 13 years at a desk, jumping from bell to bell?)

The teachers do not expressly and openly teach pluralism, but it is thoroughly woven into the policies, rules and staff training designed to prevent any beliefs or moral codes being considered as true.

Hasn't anyone noticed the slogans flooding society like "Have your say", "Your opinion matters", "Come vote now!" "What do you think?"? Now imagine this kind of attitude in the Church.

At best you get Protestantism. At worst - you get the chaotic soup that we have in the world today.
Yes, and what a perfect way to brainwash and influence as many young people as this certain group that believe this can do in public schools. A veiled agenda, imo. The minds of the young are so impressionable. But I have to say that some public school aren't too bad.

[Dorothea]

With this in mind, I say pray that we can have more Orthodox schools.
:amen: Wouldn't that be fantastic! What a blessing!

[DarkNLovely]

:amen: Wouldn't that be fantastic! What a blessing!
In my entire area ther is only ONE! I was considering private school for high school so I looked up all of them. That one is only elementary. But we have tons of ubber prestegious Catholic schools!

[DarkNLovely]

Hi, my post is a bit long as there were so many wonderful points to address in this thread.



MamaBug, you boiled down the crux of the issue here so simply, if we are not referring to homeschooling, the struggle is between what you stated. I am starting to think that it would be easier to counteract the marketplace of public education over the doctrine of another religion. However, at the end of the day, the other religion is not a different faith. The same faith is being taught and that may be helpful in the decision. One I shall be making for my son in a few more years.



What? Where have you heard that? I find this to be a bit hard to believe.



I attended Catholic School for 4 years during elementary school and I was exempt from receiving communion being that I was an Orthodox Christian. I thought that was the common treatment as I also worked as a Catholic school teacher and I was only allowed to let the Catholic children receive communion. Non-Catholics were allowed to go up front and receive a blessing (they were required to cross their arms on their bodies to let the priest know they are not receiving communion).



The bulk of my education came out of public education (that's including post secondary education). I spent 4 years of all my years in non-public school. I agree with your reason #1. The local catholic high school girls were all known for being 'naughty' as you put it. They enjoyed rolling their skirts up as high as they could get away with and the uniform was treated as a sexual ploy.



rusmeister, you place way too much power to the school system. I am a parent, a teacher by profession, received most of my education via public schools (some of which were full of negativity). I also had a mother who was suffering (still is) with Multiple Sclerosis, two brothers who were out of control and a father who was mostly not attentive. I managed to grow up quite opposite of what you described. I am fairly traditional compared to my generation, very devout in my faith, believe in the mother's place as the home during the formative years, anti president bashing, etc. All of this and I was basically "on my own" in life and just had the hand of God upon me from birth.

It states in Matthew 7 that if we build our foundations on the rock, it will stand tall: Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts upon them, may be compared to a wise man, who built his house upon the rock. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded upon the rock. One day we all must send our children out into the world away from the safety of our protection. If the first time this happens is your child's first day of college, how do you expect him to withstand life's pressures? I would prefer to start a bit earlier (junior high is a good place because developmentally their foundation is pretty much set) so that I can help him navigate the rough waters of the world.



I find your comments here extremely biased. Have you had bad experiences in your own life? I do not agree with your grim outlook on public education at all. I graduated high school with 9 college credits, a completed internship in a local law firm and became a certified peer mediator of which I still use the skills I learned at 14 to the present day.



I am a teacher trained by public graduate school and I don't understand what you are saying. The only thing I remember being ingrained in me is to separate church and state. If a child questioned me about the cross on my neck, I was instructed to tell the child that it had to do with my faith and that they were to ask their parent what if they wanted to know more.



I fail to see what is wrong with the slogans you brought up.




I completely agree with your sentiments presented here, DarknLovely!!! That was one of my biggest issues as a teacher, I was saddened that I was responsible to not just teach my students academics but I had to teach them values and morals. I worked in the Bronx school district (Catholic though) so my experience may not be the norm across the nation of US.



First of all, too many Christians have killed others in the name of God (example Crusades) because they would not "tolerate" the ways of "evil men", so I think it is funny you continue to pit the public schools as this evil entity. There are many public schools that have active PTA systems where parents are welcomed to be a presence in their child's classroom. There are ways to "infiltrate" the public schools as a parent.

You are discussing high school issues and this thread is in regards to a 5 year old! lol I do completely agree with you though about the seeds of doubt being planted. That is my main concern about anything out in the world and that is why I want to make my son's foundation ultra sturdy. Also, my child could be a light onto the world in the public schools. That is another area that hasn't been mentioned.



If you read all that, dang, you are good. I appreciate the time you invested in me and my thoughts. Even if you disagree, the fact that you were willing to give me an audience is appreciated :)
I read it all, and I thik you're brilliant! One can not chenge the world by running from it! That is why I do not down public schools! Imagine what would happen if te Christian presense their ceased? I think that we would only be fooling ourselves if we think this have a positive influence on te system as opposed to a negetive one. If we really want to change the way things are done in public schools, then that starts with better representation of the Christian viewpoint in politics and government to get what we want, and nix this false idea of the seperation of church and state.

[zhilan]

Are there any private non-religious schools in your area? Or any general Christian schools?

[DarkNLovely]

Are there any private non-religious schools in your area? Or any general Christian schools?
I'm sure there are. Actually, I can think of one. It's just in this area the Catholic schools are known to be top notch and have a lot of clout and we have nice population of wealthy folks. One of best friends is Jewish and her family sent her to the third most prestigious Catholic school in our area simply becasue it was that good. If it were any other Catholic school, they wouldn't have dared.

[DarkNLovely]

http://www.stjohngreekorthodox.com/Handbook.htm

This is the one where I live. In all honesty, I have never heard of an Orthodox scholl until I started looking for a private school years ago. I didn't think their were any.

[zhilan]

If the child must cross himself the way the Romans do, then when he goes East, he may get confused and cross the way the Romans do.

In my church, a little boy accidentally crossed himself the way the Romans do just because he got confused and the other little boys beat him up for doing so.

I hope those mean little boys were punished!! :(

[MariaRegina]

I hope those mean little boys were punished!! :(

Yes, they did get a tongue lashing by the yiayias, but it was the parents who were ultimately responsible because of the uncharitable things they said against the Catholics in the presence of their children.

Yes, we have to be truthful, but around young impressionable babes, we must be careful of what we say, because kids exaggerate and overreact.

Yes, we must pray for the Catholics and those who are in error or who have lost the faith.

[Shubunkin]

It seems to me, too, that public schools try to expell as many kids as possible for trumped up reasons, just because they try to keep up their "averages" higher with the tests, etc. I think there is a factor in there that expelled students are usually Christian, too. They definitely are picked on more from the principals here. I wouldn't put my child in a public school, and I wish I had that to do over again. :(

[rusmeister]

Hi, my post is a bit long as there were so many wonderful points to address in this thread.

Hmmm. I hope at least some of my points are among the wonderful ones!

I actually agree completely with a lot of what you have to say in general – most especially with education really being the parents’ job. I also agree that parents can even counter, to a great extent, the philosophical indoctrination of public education. (Just in case you believe there is no such animal, let me just ask you where ‘political correctness’ came from. How did it, in hardly one generation, go from the lips of a few radicals to being watchwords on everyone’s mouths?) But at what price? What struggles? Hope you don’t think it’s easy. And still, elements from that indoctrination can linger even in the face of the best parental upbringing, so that, in the words of C.S. Lewis, “…(they) have a dozen incompatible philosophies dancing about together inside (their) heads.” The Screwtape letters, ch. 1

If school can form a child’s philosophy, then it can do so for every child in a nation. If it can do that, then whoever controls the philosophy to be imparted to both the educators and their charges controls the next generation of adults (more accurately formed the way they see fit).

I agree on sending a child out into the world; however, I would say they should be ready and properly prepared when they are sent out. We would not send a child into dangerous situations without fully preparing them – indeed, there are many situations we would not send our child into at all. I see no reason to wait for junior high to begin preparation – it really starts at birth (of course, we focus mostly on protecting in the first couple of years, but even so, by degrees our voice gradually becomes less approving when the child wets his pants, for example.

I acknowledge that a small minority of children finish school better prepared than average – I have seen that schools have their ‘elites’.

Quote:
The teachers do not expressly and openly teach pluralism, but it is thoroughly woven into the policies, rules and staff training designed to prevent any beliefs or moral codes being considered as true.


I am a teacher trained by public graduate school and I don't understand what you are saying. The only thing I remember being ingrained in me is to separate church and state. If a child questioned me about the cross on my neck, I was instructed to tell the child that it had to do with my faith and that they were to ask their parent what if they wanted to know more.

To not understand, is, in a way, to pay the person you are disagreeing with a complement. Not understanding allows for the possibility that his point may be correct. I propose to demonstrate that in my own thread.
But I don’t want to be Mr. Pride-filled here.Please understand, you are mixing two different concepts: speaking about a faith or philosophy in school, and being schooled in it without ever speaking about it. I am talking about the latter, and NOT the former. I don’t care that one is not allowed to speak about Orthodoxy in school. I DO care that they are being schooled into a general denial of absolute philosophical or religious truth, which is anti-Orthodoxy in a way that makes RC deviations look rather harmless by comparison.

I fail to see what is wrong with the slogans you brought up

If you really had an Orthodox upbringing, you should know that in the Church, the attitude expressed by those slogans towards the Faith is incompatible with the Faith. They ARE, however, compatible to a considerable degree with Protestant faiths. We do not invite believer’s opinions on teachings of the Church. We learn to humble ourselves and accept authority and our own limitations and lack of knowledge – that a long-dead saint like St John Chrysostom has an opinion that is far more worthy to listen to than my own on a given question.

Originally Posted by rusmeister
Say rather, mind formation, so that at a later time in life the person will respond the way they were conditioned to, so that when they hear the words 'intolerant' and 'discriminate', they will frown, and when they hear the word 'diverse' they will smile. When they encounter the Orthodox Church they will perceive its practices as intolerant and discriminatory, and its insistence on Tradition, absolute Truth and that there is only one Church as lacking in diversity, etc.


First of all, too many Christians have killed others in the name of God (example Crusades) because they would not "tolerate" the ways of "evil men", so I think it is funny you continue to pit the public schools as this evil entity. There are many public schools that have active PTA systems where parents are welcomed to be a presence in their child's classroom. There are ways to "infiltrate" the public schools as a parent.

Again, you have misunderstood my meaning. I am pointing out that words like these can have meanings other than the ones you have been indoctrinated to see them as meaning. That one can learn to tolerate poison, or discriminate between a good mushroom and a bad one – both reversals of the popular understanding; in other words, there are some things we should NOT tolerate, and some places where we OUGHT to discriminate., and that the Church is correct in what it does not tolerate and discriminates against.

Yes, parents who work hard can counteract the conditioning to an extent, but it's a tremendous struggle. Every day seeds of doubt are being planted as to the truth that mom and dad talk about by the school. Parents speak of overarching Truth only to have it said everywhere at school that everyone has their own truth. Parents say that sex is for marriage and children, and schools make condoms available and encourage sexual sin. It's amazing how many parents believe that schools do not harm children.

You are discussing high school issues and this thread is in regards to a 5 year old! lol I do completely agree with you though about the seeds of doubt being planted. That is my main concern about anything out in the world and that is why I want to make my son's foundation ultra sturdy. Also, my child could be a light onto the world in the public schools. That is another area that hasn't been mentioned.


Evidently you are not familiar with the widespread use in schools of the first grade text “Heather Has Two Mommies” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heather_Has_Two_Mommies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heather_Has_Two_Mommies)
to teach acceptance and tolerance of homosexual behavior and ‘lifestyle’. And it is not just one book, but efforts at all levels to teach tolerance and acceptance of that and other 'lifestyles' (not excluding the rubber ones).

Again, to be a light to the world, the candle or lamp must be sturdy enough to withstand the blasts of opposition. When those blasts happen, not once in a while, but daily for 6-10 hours a day, they’ll snuff out most candles before they’re ready to stand on their own faith.

I realize you have a lot of questions, doubt and skepticism about my statements. That's fine. But I would ask you to find out what it is that I'm saying you need to be informed about.


If you read all that, dang, you are good. I appreciate the time you invested in me and my thoughts. Even if you disagree, the fact that you were willing to give me an audience is appreciated :)


Courtesy is like a drink from a mountain stream! (Stephen R. Donaldson) :)