Definition and understanding of Supersessionism

[GerTzedek]

Tish:

Supersessionism is the idea that believers supersede Jews as Israel, that the Church has replaced Israel, or that somehow believers lay claim to the title of Israel. It is basically "identity theft." From the wiki:

Replacement theology/Supersessionism. Supersessionism varieties include:

The view that G-d has divorced Israel.
The view that the Covenant between G-d and Israel is cancelled or no longer in effect.
The view that Israel is no longer G-d's chosen People.
The view that the Church is now Israel.
The view that the Church is now PART of Israel.
The view the the "remnant" (messianic Jews) have replaced Israel
The view that "Isreal" or "New Israel" is for any reason an appropriate title for the Church or gentile believers.

[GerTzedek]

Oh, it should be noted that Two House is a version of Supersessionism, but it is so BIZARRE that it is usually grouped as its own special thing. Two House is the belief that that people from the Lost 10 tribes of Israel are the ones who come to Yeshua-belief and keep covenant. So one house is the "House of Judah" or the rabbinical Jews, and the other house is the "House of Ephraim" or the Yeshua-believiers.

[Tishri1]

The view that the Church is now PART of Israel.

This one should not be labled supersessionism

that the post you made about 2 house is not supersessionism either

there is a small group of 2 housers that may feel they replace Israel but most do not, they just believe in a genetic link and they admit its a theory and thats ok it doesnt hurt anyone to have those thoughts as long as you dont usurp the land based on those theories(a small group tried to and that where the stain on the group came in)

the way you lable sometimes makes all of us super something or another:wave: thats what I mean we cant pull all the post just because you tell us to:thumbsup:

[ContentInHim]

Thank you Tishri! There are several of us who are 2 house or who fellowship with those who are and I can guarantee all MF posters that no one believes what was posted above! :hug:

[visionary]

Supersessionism is the idea that believers supersede Jews as Israel, that the Church has replaced Israel, or that somehow believers lay claim to the title of Israel. It is basically "identity theft." From the wiki:

Replacement theology/Supersessionism. Supersessionism varieties include:
The view that G-d has divorced Israel.
The view that the Covenant between G-d and Israel is cancelled or no longer in effect.
The view that Israel is no longer G-d's chosen People.
The view that the Church is now Israel.
The view that the Church is now PART of Israel.
The view the the "remnant" (messianic Jews) have replaced Israel
The view that "Isreal" or "New Israel" is for any reason an appropriate title for the Church or gentile believersCould you word this better, so that there is more elbow room?

[visionary]

These post above were in a report and worthy of all posters input. So they have been moved from Moderators report to here in the main forum for all of you to read and address as you understand it.

[nasa1]

The view that G-d has divorced Israel.


I have talked with mainstream messianics who admit that G-d divorced Israel, but not Judah.






The view that the Covenant between G-d and Israel is cancelled or no longer in effect.

If you are speaking of the Mosaic Covenent, yes, the book of Hebrews says that covenent is obsolete and vanishing away.





The view that Israel is no longer G-d's chosen People.
They were chosen to bring in the Messiah, but if you are referring to chosen as in chosen in Yeshua, that is an entirely different matter. The elect are those that believe now and those of the remnant that will believe in the future. This is not all Jews, as Isaiah himself said, "Even though the number of Israelites be as the sand of the seashore, only the remnant will be saved."





The view that the Church is now Israel.

Not earthly Israel, no.




The view that the Church is now PART of Israel.
The scriptures say that gentiles are now in the commonwealth of Israel.




The view the the "remnant" (messianic Jews) have replaced Israel


And this is what you fail to understand. Please read all the scriptures that clearly state that there is a difference between the natural descendents of Abraham, and those of the faith of Abraham. You could look at what Yeshua said in the 8th chapter of John: when the Jews said, "We are Abraham's descendents," he agreed - but when they said, "We are Abraham's children, he disagreed. Why? Becauase only those of faith are the true children of G-d, and those of faith replace the branches broken off because of unbelief.

[GerTzedek]

Tish: I'm sorry, but saying the church is PART of Israel is a form of supersessionism. We acknowledge that we are grafted on. This makes us the People of God, part of the commonwealth, but NOT Israel. To become Israel, Israel must agree to adopt us. Without that agreement, it is theft of the title.

This is also why Two House is supersessionism in all forms, because "Ephraim" claims to be Israel. It is another usurpation of the title of Israel.

People of God, part of the Commonwealth, grafted on, heirs to the promises.... but NOT ISRAEL. That is the line that must not be crossed.

I'm sure this is why it's been so difficult for you to spot supersessionist posts in the forum, or to recognize supersessionism in those posts reported to you. It is my hope that you will grow in this regard.

[ContentInHim]

Tish: I'm sorry, but saying the church is PART of Israel is a form of supersessionism. We acknowledge that we are grafted on. This makes us the People of God, part of the commonwealth, but NOT Israel. To become Israel, Israel must agree to adopt us. Without that agreement, it is theft of the title.

This is also why Two House is supersessionism in all forms, because "Ephraim" claims to be Israel. It is another usurpation of the title of Israel.

People of God, part of the Commonwealth, grafted on, heirs to the promises.... but NOT ISRAEL. That is the line that must not be crossed.

I'm sure this is why it's been so difficult for you to spot supersessionist posts in the forum, or to recognize supersessionism in those posts reported to you. It is my hope that you will grow in this regard.
So what about being "grafted in" is not "being part of"? :scratch:

Your definition of supercessionism is way too far reaching. :(

I believe that Tishri has been exceedingly polite to all members of MF. I don't see that's where the growth is needed.

Edited to add: Here is where you are over-reaching.


The view the the "remnant" (messianic Jews) have replaced Israel


While this may be replacement, I can guarantee you that Two House does not believe that they are anything but included in Israel - not replacing Israel. Tishri was correct that it's based on the idea that those who thought they were Gentile and are being called out of the churches may, indeed, have Israelite blood. While I find the idea interesting, I can't subscribe to it as my brother is less than interested about any of what consumes me in MJ. :)

[mpossoff]

The view that G-d has divorced Israel.


I have talked with mainstream messianics who admit that G-d divorced Israel, but not Judah.






The view that the Covenant between G-d and Israel is cancelled or no longer in effect.

If you are speaking of the Mosaic Covenent, yes, the book of Hebrews says that covenent is obsolete and vanishing away.





The view that Israel is no longer G-d's chosen People.
They were chosen to bring in the Messiah, but if you are referring to chosen as in chosen in Yeshua, that is an entirely different matter. The elect are those that believe now and those of the remnant that will believe in the future. This is not all Jews, as Isaiah himself said, "Even though the number of Israelites be as the sand of the seashore, only the remnant will be saved."





The view that the Church is now Israel.

Not earthly Israel, no.




The view that the Church is now PART of Israel.
The scriptures say that gentiles are now in the commonwealth of Israel.




The view the the "remnant" (messianic Jews) have replaced Israel


And this is what you fail to understand. Please read all the scriptures that clearly state that there is a difference between the natural descendents of Abraham, and those of the faith of Abraham. You could look at what Yeshua said in the 8th chapter of John: when the Jews said, "We are Abraham's descendents," he agreed - but when they said, "We are Abraham's children, he disagreed. Why? Becauase only those of faith are the true children of G-d, and those of faith replace the branches broken off because of unbelief.

The view that G-d has divorced Israel.


I have talked with mainstream messianics who admit that G-d divorced Israel, but not Judah.


both Jewish and Christian theologians agree that the statement in Jeremiah 3:8 is allegorical Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also

...mostly because of what we read in Isaiah 50:1

“ Where is the certificate of your mother’s divorce,
Whom I have put away?
Or which of My creditors is it to whom I have sold you?
For your iniquities you have sold yourselves,
And for your transgressions your mother has been put away.

The implication is that though Adonai had sent her away (or begun the process), he did not follow through and complete the divorce proceedings. Compare these ideas to the book of Hosea and you will find this line of thinking to be consistent. In Hosea 2:2, he declares that Israel is not his wife; yet He plays out the role of the jealous husband on her behalf and finally draws her to Himself as a husband to His wife.

Or here is another view.... Anyone who has been through a divorce hates it. He hates it because He has been through it and knows what a terrible thing it is.
However, He is not violating the Torah to remarry her. It is permisseable for Him to remarry her if He dies. But He's no good to her as a husband when He's died...unless He comes back to life.

Marc

[GerTzedek]

So what about being "grafted in" is not "being part of"? :scratch:

Your definition of supercessionism is way too far reaching. :(

I believe that Tishri has been exceedingly polite to all members of MF. I don't see that's where the growth is needed.

Edited to add: Here is where you are over-reaching. Not at all.

First, there is the general rule of thumb: You don't take another person's name or title without permsission. When someone started using my name, I reported them for identity theft: it was a crime. It is fraud, and theft. It is morally wrong. Unless ISRAEL gives you permission, it follows that it is wrong for anyone to take the name of Israel. Now they do allow this, when people go through the process of conversion, it's a kind of adoption into the People. But if a person has not gone through that, if a Jewish beit din has not granted the right, it is morally wrong to take the name of Jew or Israel.

Second, let's look at the analogy of grafting, and what it does, and what it does not do. What grafting does is gives a branch a superior root system. For example, California wines are the best in the world because they took the branches from the French varieties which had been bread for centuries, and grafted them onto the superior root systems of California vines.

Now let's look at what grafting does NOT do. Grafting does NOT change the graft into something other than what it was. If I graft a peach branch onto a plum root, I will get better peaches, because plum roots are a better system. But it won't be a plum tree! It will not bear plums! It will still bear peaches! That peach branch has no right to be called a plum branch simply because it is grafted onto a plum root. Do you see the point?

Now, Paul uses the example of Oleander (or what is sometimes called wild olive, its not actually olive, it does not bear olives, it looks live an olive branch) being grafted onto an olive tree, gaining sustanance from the olive root system. The Oleandar is STILL Oleandar. It does NOT start bearing olives. It is NOT suddently and olive branch.


In the same sense, gentiles grafted onto Israel receive sustanance through Israel. But they remain gentiles. They don't magically turn into Israel.


Now I feel like that should clear things up, and if it doesnt, it's because people don't want it to be cleared up.

In Two House theology, the claim to be of Jewish descent is based solely on "feeling Jewish" and a lot of miscontrued Bible verses. But that is NOT what this movement is. It has NOTHING to do with actually being able to show Jewish descent.

If they want to be recognized by Isreal as Israel, they can become Jews. But the way they are doing it is just creepy. It brings back the whole Anglo-Isreal kind of deal... its so doggone RACIAL And the creepiest thing of all is that at the same time they are acting out their envy, they still disprespect actual Jews.

The movement's proponents further argue that these dispersed "Israelites," or "Ephraimites," whose identities have remained undisclosed even to themselves until recent times, primarily settled in areas now recognized as largely populated by Anglo- Saxons. At times they argue that all Anglo-Saxons, and even all of humanity, are descended from these lost Ephraimites. At other times, that only born-again Christians can claim descent. In either case, Christians from Anglo-Saxon lands, such as Great Britain, Australia, Canada, and the United States, can feel assured that they are most likely direct blood descendants of the ancient people of Ephraim.

Yuck! David Duke would get drunk on this stuff.

[Bananna]

I can see we are going to have a problem cutting out the belief that gentiles who stand by israel are part of the common wealth of Israel. I am messianic and I stand by israel and align myself with her.

Don't know what that makes me other than a child of God, but most refer to this as being part of Israel so it would be hard pressed to take it out of the thread discussions, teaching and debates.

The problem with too many restrictions is that it can hamper learning.

I think it needs better wording
bananna

[stranger]

Tish: I'm sorry, but saying the church is PART of Israel is a form of supersessionism. We acknowledge that we are grafted on. This makes us the People of God, part of the commonwealth, but NOT Israel. To become Israel, Israel must agree to adopt us. Without that agreement, it is theft of the title.

This is also why Two House is supersessionism in all forms, because "Ephraim" claims to be Israel. It is another usurpation of the title of Israel.


Ephraim is a son of Joseph, grandson of Jacob ,adopted as full son by Jacob, his descendants need no permission to call themselves Israel , just because they have been out in he cold , rejected by God for 3 millenia... God now accepts the House of Israel in a new covenant through the death of the messiah - Jer 31:31-34 - it is time almost for some Jews to accept those who have been living as gentiles all this time as their long-lost brthers in Israel by descent from Jacob... it is not a poersonal matter, it is a matter that the nation which ceased to be a recognisable people is exactly the nation who are not a people who make the Jews jealous with kowledge of the long-awaited messiah ... this was spoken of by Moses , do not stand in its way of coming to pass, as if you could... but why try?

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. The only foolish nation who cease to be a people in scripture are the House of Israel, and they are still lost by the time the Messiah arrived to begin gathering them from amongst all nations :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. People of God, part of the Commonwealth, grafted on, heirs to the promises.... but NOT ISRAEL. That is the line that must not be crossed.Read Paul further, the natural branches broken off can be grafted back in to the messiah, the root, and take the graft BETTER than the wild branches ... then read the new covenant -Jer 31:31-34, the covenant is ONLY with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, none else receives grace ...

the few redeemed in this life are listed by the Messiah as all belonging to tribes of Israel, descendants of Jacob... only few find the narrow straight way in this life, the many are saved afterward [Rev 7:9-10]

Most of Israel died sinners in unbelief in the Messiah yet all israel is saved to be a royal priesthood of kings to minister in the salvation of the gentiles... thus the salvation of the many cannot even begin until the priesthood is established and sinners are resurrected at the second resurrection , in the new earth kingdom where the Messiah rules and Israel are kings under the king of kings, but the ones who are ruled are the gentiles , all of whom died sinners [as most of their churches admit, they are sinners who hope Jesus will save them , they just did not read that he will save them ,but not as sinners, not at his return]

The role of the House of Israel is thus crucial, it is saints who emerge from amongst the gentiles who persuad the remnant of the Jews about the messiah, creatung the last few saints of this earth, the omes who resist the antichrist until the return of the Messiah....

why buy one's head in dogma of sinners, the scripture is far more beautiful ...

I'm sure this is why it's been so difficult for you to spot supersessionist posts in the forum, or to recognize supersessionism in those posts reported to you. It is my hope that you will grow in this regard.Open your mind to God's truth in scripture my friend, else you become a witch-hunter ot Inquisitionist ... the pain afterward will be extreme indeed ...

[stranger]

Tish:

Supersessionism is the idea that believers supersede Jews as Israel, that the Church has replaced Israel, or that somehow believers lay claim to the title of Israel. It is basically "identity theft." From the wiki:

Replacement theology/Supersessionism. Supersessionism varieties include:
The view that G-d has divorced Israel.

The scripture actually says that God has 'divorced' Israel, for not keeping the old covenant, but takes back his former wife in her old age ... by the new covenant with the House of Judah and the House of Israel -Jer 31:31-34

one cannot exclude scripture from the discussion boards , still less does it make any sense to do so on the basis of misunderstanding of the WHOLE story ... both the House of Judah and the House of Israel were separately rejected for breaking the covenant , it is pointless denying it , but there is a new covenant now through the Messiah , an unconditional grafting back in of the natural branches that take better than the wild ones , understand the scripture more fully because it was entrusted to them ... so now it is coming to the time when the last sainst before Jesus returns will be made by God, and many will be Jews who learn about the Messiah from the House of Israel who appear to them to be gentiles ,but are truly their cousins by descent from Jacob.
The view that the Covenant between G-d and Israel is cancelled or no longer in effect.The old covenant saved very few indeed, but it has not been cancelled, it still has ritual enactments to be performed as detailed in the Law and the Prophets, it is simply that the new covenant has no conditions upon Israel, it is simpler by far and wills ave many more than the old covenant...
The view that Israel is no longer G-d's chosen People.Clearly scripture says otherwise , in OT and NT and explicitly in the new covenant with only the House of judah and the House of Israel...
The view that the Church is now Israel.the 'chrsitian' churches are divided, which shows that they are not of God, not of His spirit of one truth ... it is truly desperation to try to prove Israel is not israel, but that non-Israel is Israel, but then I have seen them try to prove that there are thre nights between good friday and easter sunday... they are truly despearte men who know the are wrong but cannot admit it... pity and enlighten them but do not fail your duty of love to God and fail to love them
The view that the Church is now PART of Israel.Again absurd if one reads the scripture , Israel are the descendants of Jacob [with but a few who join themselves l;egally to Israel as 'strangers'
The view the the "remnant" (messianic Jews) have replaced Israelone problem here is to say who are 'Jews' , or rather of Israel, of Jacob,, since the Jews are merely visible Israel and the House of Israel disappeared into gentile nations three millenia ago... the messiah was sent to gather them ,but even by the time of his return only 144,000 of Israel have become saints, and many of those are explicitly 'Jews' , part of visible Israel... that is perhaps only about a thousand alive at any one time who are saints of the House of Israel... there seems no basis then for legislation here on that
The view that "Isreal" or "New Israel" is for any reason an appropriate title for the Church or gentile believers.Since there can only be about a thousand saints of the House of Israel alive at any one time, it rather easily excludes almost all christian churches ... the Messiah has said that the gentiles are saved, but that they are not the first saved.... dunno really why chrsitains are in such a rush to be first, fear of some mythical hell I suppose, but their own scripture should relieve them of that fear and show them that the priesthood is first established as Israel before they are redeemed Rev 7:9-10 ... and the promise of bthat goes right back to Moses -Ex 19:6 ... so much could be sorted out if only people had respect to god's scripture instead of relying on dogma created by sinners to control people... still that is the way God wants it , the many are hubled by being wrong.... there is no reason to jopin them though by listening to sinners.... not all Jews die saints by a long chalk... most Jews cannot be resurrected until the second resurrection either...

If God can longsuffer the foolishness of the gentiles and most Jews and most of the House of Israel , there seems little reason why you cannot too , after all the bearing with others is the means God uses to perfect the love of saints... thus perhaps you should be more concerned with [erfecting your love of all men as love for God than in froming ad hoc rules to exclude many from discussionn of the role of the Jews who understand already that Jesus/Y'shua is their long-awaited Messiah...

[stranger]

Oh, it should be noted that Two House is a version of Supersessionism, but it is so BIZARRE that it is usually grouped as its own special thing. Two House is the belief that that people from the Lost 10 tribes of Israel are the ones who come to Yeshua-belief and keep covenant. So one house is the "House of Judah" or the rabbinical Jews, and the other house is the "House of Ephraim" or the Yeshua-believiers.

In scripture Jacob adopts his two grandsons as full sons alongside his other twelve sons... that makes fourteeen tribes since Joseph has other descendents than Ephraim and Manasseh... thus the idea of ten lost tribes is numerically incorrect for starters ...

the House of Israel worshipped other gods, it never believed in Judaism, so after release from captivity , despite needding land to live on [having lost their own lands] many could not join the House of Judah and take up Judism as 'Jews' ... instead they were dispersed amongst all gentile nations annd lived as gentiles

Deut 4:23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
25 When thou shalt beget children, and children’s children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

Now the House of Judah also was scattered for breaking the old covenant , but never did they serve other gods as the House of Israel... Judaism is then the distinguishing feature of the Jews , yet there are those truly of Israel who never accepted Judaism... they are truly lost by name because the House of Israel disappeared as a name, but they are far from lost to God for He forgives them explicitly in the NEW covenant with both Houses -Jer 31:31-34

\Not only that but this nation who, unlike the Jews, ceased to be a recognisable people, are the very ones whom Moses prophesied would emerge and make the Jews jealous... clearly not Jews then...

Deuteronomy 32:21 ...I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Zechariah 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
...
Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

[visionary]

I see that you have found the thread.

[Bananna]

I agree there has to be some toleration of ideas we do not believe, the discussion helps people learn and it may take a while to replace incorrect theology that is ingrained for years.

Bananna

[visionary]

Stranger:

Can you give us a version of supersession rules that cuts a line between what we have here and where it crosses over the line and is fanatical.

[nasa1]

Ger wrote:"First, there is the general rule of thumb: You don't take another person's name or title without permsission."


But yet Messianic Judaism has taken the title of "Judaism" without Judaism's permission!


nasa

[visionary]

Ger wrote:"First, there is the general rule of thumb: You don't take another person's name or title without permsission."


But yet Messianic Judaism has taken the title of "Judaism" without Judaism's permission!


nasa...As a discription of worship style, which is the way they do take the title too.

[Bananna]

MJ is the title taken by the Jews that started this form of worship. I'm Messianic. I practise messianic Judaism. I have a Rabbi friend that is a Messianic Jewish Rabbi, he basically practises Judaism. I have another Jewish Pastor I know that practises Messianic Judaism. What I am and what I practice are two different things.

bananna

[GerTzedek]

But yet Messianic Judaism has taken the title of "Judaism" without Judaism's permission!

Excuse me, but those who coined the phrase "Messianic Judaism," were JEWS. Had it just been gentiles, THEN you would have a point: it would have been stealing.

[stranger]

I agree there has to be some toleration of ideas we do not believe, the discussion helps people learn and it may take a while to replace incorrect theology that is ingrained for years.

Bananna

That is why making ad hoc rules is a mistake ... neither does God operate by democracy, and polls are notoriously easy to fix by those with unsavoury motives.... the rule of God is simply love, it knows no boundaries , but it does have a PLAN to save a few first and use them as priests to minister to the many ...

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Thus love will come to all men, but to the few first because the priesthood must be perfect in love at the ebginning of saving the masses...

This priesthood is not even yet established, so this is NOT the time for sinners to make rules against other sinners, the rules just turn out unloving and thus are a stumblingbock to all concerned, even those that made rules in place of God...

the scripture then has ENOUGH rules that men cannot yet follow well enough to save themselves, no need to add more that are not even backed by God...

[wish Erwin wold listen, but I think he is beginning to]

[stranger]

Excuse me, but those who coined the phrase "Messianic Judaism," were JEWS. Had it just been gentiles, THEN you would have a point: it would have been stealing.

The point is that the House of Israel cannot steal the name of Israel even though their name as a nation was lost.... God scattered them to worship other gods, He scattered the Jews to keep judaism and keep their identity...

The House of Israel is no less Israel just because they lost their name, they are still israel's descendants and heirs to the promises and their worship of other gods has now been forgiven them explicitly, by name, in the new covenant Jer 31:31-34

Now that doesn't mena that any old 'gentile' can claim to be of Israel, but God set a sign upon Israel, one that the Jewish hierarchy changed in adopting local time , it is no less than the weekly sabbath [shabbat] and is set throughout israel's generations, thus the House of Israel can be known by the sign which many Jews have lost through their hierarchy ... there are other signs too, mentioned in scripture, which most christians and many jews do not adopt as beliefs.. it is not that hard to tell if someone has been led into all truth of God in this life, for instance [John 16:13]

[GerTzedek]

Can you personally prove that you are the House of Israel? Anything besides feelings? Do you have a geneology?

The overwhelming number of practitioners of Two House have NOTHING but "feelings." Feelings lie. They are NOT Israel, and are STEALING the title.

[GerTzedek]

I agree there has to be some toleration of ideas we do not believe, the discussion helps people learn and it may take a while to replace incorrect theology that is ingrained for years.

Bananna
Two House is a newcomer to try and usurp the MJ title. It is not an old entrenched idea that we want to gradually excise. It is a new idea to our playing field that we want to grant no quarter.

[visionary]

Can you personally prove that you are the House of Israel? Anything besides feelings? Do you have a geneology?

The overwhelming number of practitioners of Two House have NOTHING but "feelings." Feelings lie. They are NOT Israel, and are STEALING the title.While I didn't see any evidence that there was a belief of "are the House of Israel", you did bring up a good point. By what criteria is the House of Israel to be defined by.

[GerTzedek]

While I didn't see any evidence that there was a belief of "are the House of Israel", you did bring up a good point. By what criteria is the House of Israel to be defined by.
Born of Jewish mothers and converts such as Ruth.

[visionary]

Born of Jewish mothers and converts such as Ruth.Sounds like Messianic believers... both Jews and Gentiles of the faith.

[GerTzedek]

Sounds like Messianic believers... both Jews and Gentiles of the faith.
A convert is no longer a gentile. They are adopted into the People. It is different than being grafted. A convert is a Jew in every way.

Nor does being Jewish have anything to do with beliefs. Being born of a Jewish mother is an automatic thing. Such a person might very well grow up to be an atheist. The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of Jews born to Jewish mother are not believers in Yeshua. I really can't fathom what would cause you to post such a remark as "sounds like Messianic believers." Israel is a PEOPLE.

Are you deliberately trying to argue with me, or are you genuinely not understanding this?

[nasa1]

Excuse me, but those who coined the phrase "Messianic Judaism," were JEWS. Had it just been gentiles, THEN you would have a point: it would have been stealing.



You missed my point. The phrase "Judaism" comes from those that created that religion.

To take the name of another religion and then try and graft it onto a Christian one is not accurate.

Why? Because Judaism is not Christianity. Christianity follows Jesus, Judaism does not. The Messianic Movement folows the same Jesus that Christianity does.
But the bottom line is, Judaism is neither Messianic or Christian. It claims to be Messianic, as they believe in a Messiah, but since they have rejected that Messiah, is it truly Messianic? No.

For a Jewish person to take the name "Judaism" and graft it onto a faith that calls Jesus the Messiah is a misrepresentation of the title, "Judaism."

Paul said once, "You have heard of my former way of life in Judaism." He considered himself completely done with that religion.

nasa

[visionary]

You missed my point. The phrase "Judaism" comes from those that created that religion.

To take the name of another religion and then try and graft it onto a Christian one is not accurate.

Why? Because Judaism is not Christianity. OK, if you say so. Christianity follows Jesus, Judaism does not. Messianic Judaism follows Yeshua.... so ok, I follow what you say. The Messianic Movement folows the same Jesus that Christianity does. Now, that is where I beg to differ. Yeshua is a Jew, King of the Jews infact. That blonde haired blue eyed non-kosher, grace only now version is another story. But the bottom line is, Judaism is neither Messianic or Christian. The Messiah is Judaic, and therefore we follow in His Way. That makes Messianic Judaism compatible for those of this faith. It claims to be Messianic, as they believe in a Messiah, but since they have rejected that Messiah, is it truly Messianic? No.That is circular reasoning and you may want to re-word this to clarify what you are trying to say. For a Jewish person to take the name "Judaism" and graft it onto a faith that calls Jesus the Messiah is a misrepresentation of the title, "Judaism."Some, certain sects of Judaism, would agree with you there. Paul said once, "You have heard of my former way of life in Judaism." He considered himself completely done with that religion.Not, Paul affirmed His Judaic faith til His dying day.

[Wags]

Paul said once, "You have heard of my former way of life in Judaism." He considered himself completely done with that religion.


Wrong!

Paul said, “I continue to believe everything that accords with the Torah and everything written in the Prophets.” (Acts 24:14) He even claimed not to have violated oral torah – traditions of the fathers. (Acts 28:17).

If he considered himself "completely done" with "that religion" then why would he claim to have kept even the traditions of the fathers? He wouldn't.

[stranger]

Yeshua is a Jew, King of the Jews infact.

Not just king of the Jews, but king of Israel's two Houses ... not all in Israel ever accepted Judaism... :-

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

Part of Israel thus served other gods and did not keep Judaism before they were scattered, and continued not to keep Judaism where they are scattered... they were never Jews, but they clearly are Israel...

[visionary]

Not just king of the Jews, but king of Israel's two Houses ... not all in Israel ever accepted Judaism... :-

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

Part of Israel thus served other gods and did not keep Judaism before they were scattered, and continued not to keep Judaism where they are scattered... they were never Jews, but they clearly are Israel...Not until the time of the gentiles is over...

[stranger]

Not until the time of the gentiles is over...

Yes indeed, and ain't they making a mess of relligion and the world without him to rule them to love everyone and love God ... but only whilst they are given power by God's permission to Satan to do so ! ;) -Rev 13:3-8- only until it all comes apart in their hands ... its a seriously hard way to learn humility before God, but even God never fond a better way ,since most men cannot hear His words ... we see then the role of tradition, ratcheting men away from the truth because it refuses to be corrected even by the saints of God in their writings , which is why they were wriitten :-

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off {Israel], and thou, being a wild olive tree[gentiles who join themselves to Israel], wert graffed in among them , and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

[Did you never hear a christian sy this ... but see what happens to them !] :-

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they[Israel] also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [the NEW covenant with those whose fathers broke the old covenant -Heb 8:8-12]
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their [Israel's] sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.[by grace]
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

[stranger]

Nor does being Jewish have anything to do with beliefs. Being born of a Jewish mother is an automatic thing. Such a person might very well grow up to be an atheist. The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of Jews born to Jewish mother are not believers in Yeshua. I really can't fathom what would cause you to post such a remark as "sounds like Messianic believers." Israel is a PEOPLE.Being born of an Israelite mother does make one of Israel by birth, that is the law ... that does not save one in itself , but it does make one an Israelite ...

now not all Israelites are taken at the Messiah's return, Y'shua names but 144,000 of but twelve of the tribes as first fruits... thta is all God needs at first then

but they are all named as descendants of the sons of Jacob ny name by the Messiah in Rev 7:3-8, so why do you not believe him?

Israel does not MERIT this, since they disobeyed God in their old covenant with Him, and have surely been suffering the curse that their fathers accepted for covenant-breaking, but there is a new covenant brouhght in -Jer 31:31-34 - and it forgives Israel unconditionally, not because they merited it, but simply because God put His name on them ... thus those with Israelite mothers are to be saved first because they have the name of God on them , because God will do what He has said, not because of themselves but because of the anme they carry by descent from Jacob...



Num 6:27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Romans 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

- Again it is very clear scripture that Israel were rejected, but now are accepted under a new covenant with God that takes in not just the House of Judah ,but alos the House of Israel , amny of whom have served other gods now for three millenia ... Israel still does not have one king ruling over both Houses in righteousness.... nor does the Messiah claim his kingdom in this world :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My[B] kingdom is not of this world:

Thus nothing magical is transmitted by Israelite mothers except the name of God upon Israel, the PROMISE of God to Jacob lights on Jacob's descendants , one cannot change that ... and but a few trangers join themselves to Israel legally , else the leagal name comes down only by descent ...

As for Israel being a people, in that sense they are because God put His name on them, but Ephraim truly are of israel with His name on them, yet they ceased to be a people for a very long time indeed ,and serve other gods amongst the gentiles, not Judism like the Jews ... thus they too must be gathered from amongst the tgentiles by God , like the Jews, but the Jews have IDENTITY as being Israel [partly by historic record, mostly by keeping Judaism] , the House of Israel mostly does not

Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

Judaism thus distinguishes the Jews from the remainder of Israel , scattered separately amongts the gentiles at a different time than the Jews...

[stranger]

A convert is no longer a gentile. They are adopted into the People. It is different than being grafted. A convert is a Jew in every way.

Rather that is EXACTLY what grafting is... the Jews and House of Israel were broken off because of unbelief, and are grafted back in through belief ... the only difference between this belief and belief in Judaism of the Jews or in other gods as the House of israel, is that this time God simply puts the faith in the hearts and minds of His people, takes them as His [Jer 31:31-34 , Heb 8:8-12] because He has said they will be His , despite themselves.... bu grace, without merit of the people themselves to receive forgiveness ...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Thus neither Christians , nor Jews have cause to boast, as many do ... it simply guarantees that they will die in sin if they do boast ... the few saints of Israel thus do not boast their faith as religionists do ....

[ChazakEmunah]

Excuse me, but those who coined the phrase "Messianic Judaism," were JEWS. Had it just been gentiles, THEN you would have a point: it would have been stealing.
Quite true. However, they were not practicing Judaism when they started the Messianic movement.

[ChazakEmunah]

You missed my point. The phrase "Judaism" comes from those that created that religion.

To take the name of another religion and then try and graft it onto a Christian one is not accurate.

Why? Because Judaism is not Christianity. Christianity follows Jesus, Judaism does not. The Messianic Movement folows the same Jesus that Christianity does.
But the bottom line is, Judaism is neither Messianic or Christian. It claims to be Messianic, as they believe in a Messiah, but since they have rejected that Messiah, is it truly Messianic? No.

For a Jewish person to take the name "Judaism" and graft it onto a faith that calls Jesus the Messiah is a misrepresentation of the title, "Judaism."

Paul said once, "You have heard of my former way of life in Judaism." He considered himself completely done with that religion.

nasa
Hold the phone and stop the presses...... This is a historic moment.


Nasa and I actually agree on something. :clap:

[Bananna]

Again, Judaism has many sects. Chassidim, Reform, Orthodox.

Jews calling their faith in messiah Messianic Judaism, is not taking someone elses religion it is their religion.

[ChazakEmunah]

Again, Judaism has many sects. Chassidim, Reform, Orthodox.

Jews calling their faith in messiah Messianic Judaism, is not taking someone elses religion it is their religion.
Banana, Messianic belief at it's core is no different than C*hristian beliefs. It is this fact that separates it from Judaism. Belief in a particular person as Mashiakh has never been a deal breaker when it comes to Judaism, it is when that person is turned into a god that it becomes a problem. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if Messianic Jews & Gentiles were to drop the C*hristian beliefs and accept halakha, then there would be room to possibly recognize them as a valid sect of Judaism. Until that point, there is just no way that they will be seen as a legitimate part of Judaism.

[Lulav]

Banana, Messianic belief at it's core is no different than C*hristian beliefs. It is this fact that separates it from Judaism. Belief in a particular person as Mashiakh has never been a deal breaker when it comes to Judaism, it is when that person is turned into a god that it becomes a problem. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if Messianic Jews & Gentiles were to drop the C*hristian beliefs and accept halakha, then there would be room to possibly recognize them as a valid sect of Judaism. Until that point, there is just no way that they will be seen as a legitimate part of Judaism. See that is the problem, Yeshua is not some other g0d as many try to establish, maybe Jesus as worshiped by traditional churches, you may have an argument, but Yeshua as Messianic Jews see him is not another god. He is the one whom HaShem said in the beginning, let us make mankind in our image.
He is the one whom we see in parashah 4, Vayera, He appeared, Yes it says Adonai appeared, and what did Abraham see, three men, who ate and talked with him. Was the one ( Adonai) who rained down fire out of heaven from Adonai. HaShem is a spirit, yet Daniel saw him sitting on the throne at the judgement, with white raiment and hair as wool. Yeshua is also described with this same appearance in Revelation 1. Messianic Jews and some gentiles believe in an un-whitewashed Messiah who is the right arm of HaShem, doing his will and keeping his promise to Israel made long ago.

Our salvation was not Just from the Egyptians, that was only a miqra.

[ChazakEmunah]

See that is the problem, Yeshua is not some other g0d as many try to establish, maybe Jesus as worshiped by traditional churches, you may have an argument, but Yeshua as Messianic Jews see him is not another god. He is the one whom HaShem said in the beginning, let us make mankind in our image.
He is the one whom we see in parashah 4, Vayera, He appeared, Yes it says Adonai appeared, and what did Abraham see, three men, who ate and talked with him. Was the one ( Adonai) who rained down fire out of heaven from Adonai. HaShem is a spirit, yet Daniel saw him sitting on the throne at the judgement, with white raiment and hair as wool. Yeshua is also described with this same appearance in Revelation 1. Messianic Jews and some gentiles believe in an un-whitewashed Messiah who is the right arm of HaShem, doing his will and keeping his promise to Israel made long ago.

Our salvation was not Just from the Egyptians, that was only a miqra.
Thanks Lulav. I am quite familiar with Messianic beliefs though. I was one for ten years ya know. ;)

And yes, I know that many Messianics believe that Je*us appeared in pre-incarnate form as an angel. Having read the relevant p'sukim in the Tanakh, and the commentary of the Hakhamim, I have found no substantiation that would indicate that any of the malakim are human n'shomot.

Further, if one reads the psukim and commentary on Chet haEgel (the sin of the golden calf), we find that their sin was not worshipping another god, but in creating an image that was worshipped as HaShem. So, from the traditional Jewish POV we see no difference between this act and the act of worshipping Je*us.

[nasa1]

Banana, Messianic belief at it's core is no different than C*hristian beliefs. It is this fact that separates it from Judaism. Belief in a particular person as Mashiakh has never been a deal breaker when it comes to Judaism, it is when that person is turned into a god that it becomes a problem. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if Messianic Jews & Gentiles were to drop the C*hristian beliefs and accept halakha, then there would be room to possibly recognize them as a valid sect of Judaism. Until that point, there is just no way that they will be seen as a legitimate part of Judaism.

I'll have to agree with you on this, Chazak.


Judaism is not Christianity nor Messianic Judaism. They will never be the same, and Judaism will never accept Messianic Judaism as a sect. Never, even if they stopped viewing Yeshua as Deity, because Judaism does not accept Yeshua as the Deity or the Messiah.

The Messianic faith has to stop wanting to be a part of Judaism. They are a part of Christianity, a denomination of Christianity. They need to stop trying to seperate themselves from Christianity and accept who they are in Christ.

NASA

[nasa1]

OK, if you say so Messianic Judaism follows Yeshua.... so ok, I follow what you say. Now, that is where I beg to differ. Yeshua is a Jew, King of the Jews infact. That blonde haired blue eyed non-kosher, grace only now version is another story. The Messiah is Judaic, and therefore we follow in His Way. That makes Messianic Judaism compatible for those of this faith. That is circular reasoning and you may want to re-word this to clarify what you are trying to say. Some, certain sects of Judaism, would agree with you there. Not, Paul affirmed His Judaic faith til His dying day.




Show me a scripture where Paul called his religion Judaism in his old age, or anywhere.

As for the Messianic movement following the same Jesus as Christianity, yes, that is true -no matter if one sees Jesus as a black man, or a man with blue eyes and white skin - the appearance does not matter. If you think salvation is by grace and works, then you do not understand salvation. Salvation is by grace. Nothing else. It is by the grace of G-d that we are saved - He gave us this faith, it is not of ourselves. No one does one thing to earn their salvation. Their belief is a gift from G-d, and that grace is only from G-d.


Works do not have anything to do with salvation.

So yes, grace only is true, and if you think otherwise, that you need to do any works to be saved, then I think you need to start at phase one - the cross and see what Jesus did for you - as it is written in Galatians 2:21,


"If our right standing with G-d could be attained by our works, then Yeshua died in vain!"


NASA

[Wags]

Yeshua said "your faith has made you whole, now go and sin no more".

Many christian teachers forget that true T'shuvah is more than just repentence of sins, it is returning to a right relationship with the Holy One. Salvation is by faith, but as James points out, faith without action is nothing.

[stranger]

Yeshua said "your faith has made you whole, now go and sin no more".

Many christian teachers forget that true T'shuvah is more than just repentence of sins, it is returning to a right relationship with the Holy One. Salvation is by faith, but as James points out, faith without action is nothing.

Yes, to cease to sin before death is the seal of saints :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[visionary]

Show me a scripture where Paul called his religion Judaism in his old age, or anywhere.His faith is Judaism.Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. It is his profession of faith. Acts 24:14
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Right down to the customs Acts 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans. Paul understood the conflict but he also saw the end. Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. We also want to be beloved for the Father's sake. After all Yeshua said "Worship the Father." So did Paul throughout his whole life. Ga 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

[Bananna]

Thanks Lulav. I am quite familiar with Messianic beliefs though. I was one for ten years ya know. ;)

And yes, I know that many Messianics believe that Je*us appeared in pre-incarnate form as an angel. Having read the relevant p'sukim in the Tanakh, and the commentary of the Hakhamim, I have found no substantiation that would indicate that any of the malakim are human n'shomot.

Further, if one reads the psukim and commentary on Chet haEgel (the sin of the golden calf), we find that their sin was not worshipping another god, but in creating an image that was worshipped as HaShem. So, from the traditional Jewish POV we see no difference between this act and the act of worshipping Je*us.
I've read this several times and still don't know what you said in the second paragraph... can you clarify.

Worship is to bow down and pay homage to a king, an authority or a god. Even though many Christians like to claim that worship was only for God alone we see even Daniel bowing and saying, "oh King live forever". Worship as king... or in the case of worship of Yeshua as king and judge does not necessitate worshipping Yeshua as God... the one True God and Father of us all.

All Flesh will one day bow and worship Yeshua as Prince of the Kings of the earth and righteous judge. It never says we will worship him as God the Father creator of Heaven and earth.

Yeshuah never asked us to worship him... but did ask us to worship God alone.

bananna

[ChazakEmunah]

I've read this several times and still don't know what you said in the second paragraph... can you clarify.
Sure. Sorry about that. As I learn more Hebrew, I try to incorporate it more. :)

Basically, what I said is that I have found no substantiation that any of the angels are human souls (minus the human body).

Worship is to bow down and pay homage to a king, an authority or a god.
Typically, a Jew will not bow before a human king. Remember the story of Mordechai?

Even though many Christians like to claim that worship was only for God alone we see even Daniel bowing and saying, "oh King live forever".
I don't see this as worship necessarily, but moreso in the line of respect due to his office.

Worship as king... or in the case of worship of Yeshua as king and judge does not necessitate worshipping Yeshua as God... the one True God and Father of us all.

All Flesh will one day bow and worship Yeshua as Prince of the Kings of the earth and righteous judge. It never says we will worship him as God the Father creator of Heaven and earth.
Yes, worship should be reserved for HaShem alone. And actually, that part of worshipping 'Yeshua', "every knee will bow and tongue confess" is part of the V'al Kein, which is reserved for HaShem alone.

See the following:

Then all the inhabitants of the world will recognize and know that every knee should bend to You, every tongue should swear by Your Name. Before You, L-rd our G-d, they will bow and prostrate themselves and give honor to the glory of Your Name, and they will take upon themselves the yoke of Your kingdom.

[Lulav]

Typically, a Jew will not bow before a human king. Remember the story of Mordechai? he would not bow to our mortal enemy, the seed of Amelek, Haman was not a king, Ahasuerus was the King and Mordechai sat in the King's gate and I'm sure paid him proper homage. He also protected his life and saved his life by reporting the plot to assassinate the King,, that is what saved all the Jews.

You say a Jew will not bow before a human king, do you think that happened with David, or Solomon, or how about Herod? I think we would read of a lot more than John being beheaded if that were so.

Like it or not, Yeshua was of the lineage of David and the Jews of that time did bow down to him, anticipating that at that time he would overthrow the Roman government and the rightful Davidic government would once again rule over Israel, but that was not the time for it, but it will be very soon and most likely in our day.

[Lulav]

Thanks Lulav. I am quite familiar with Messianic beliefs though. I was one for ten years ya know. ;)

And yes, I know that many Messianics believe that Je*us appeared in pre-incarnate form as an angel. Having read the relevant p'sukim in the Tanakh, and the commentary of the Hakhamim, I have found no substantiation that would indicate that any of the malakim are human n'shomot.

Further, if one reads the psukim and commentary on Chet haEgel (the sin of the golden calf), we find that their sin was not worshipping another god, but in creating an image that was worshipped as HaShem. So, from the traditional Jewish POV we see no difference between this act and the act of worshipping Je*us.

No, I was not aware of that, thank you for telling me. Although it doesn't really effect what I said.

So let me ask you, do you believe that father Abraham worshiped an angel and called him My Lord?

Yes, I am familiar with the meaning of the golden calf and what it was to represent. But I will not accept Yeshua being compared to a god of metal, and I don't know how anyone else can. It's comparative in the least of saying that you , a human being are comparable to a car.

I realize that gentile Christianity has given for millennia the reason to believe that Jesus should be worshiped as G-d as they really don't understand as they have thrown away half of the instructions about their G-d. But don't mistake all Messianics as having the same mind set. I worship HaShem, but I also acknowledge that his right arm, his salvation came in the person of Yeshua, things he promised to do, were fulfilled in this coming. And there is more to come.

[Lulav]

Yosef ben Ya'akov is the key to understanding the King

[Tishri1]

we need your votes here
http://foru.ms/t6063848

[stranger]

Basically, what I said is that I have found no substantiation that any of the angels are human souls (minus the human body).

Yet angels are mistaken for men ... think again :-

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

[Talmidah]

Thanks Lulav. I am quite familiar with Messianic beliefs though. I was one for ten years ya know. ;)

And yes, I know that many Messianics believe that Je*us appeared in pre-incarnate form as an angel. Having read the relevant p'sukim in the Tanakh, and the commentary of the Hakhamim, I have found no substantiation that would indicate that any of the malakim are human n'shomot.

Further, if one reads the psukim and commentary on Chet haEgel (the sin of the golden calf), we find that their sin was not worshipping another god, but in creating an image that was worshipped as HaShem. So, from the traditional Jewish POV we see no difference between this act and the act of worshipping Je*us.

Well said, CE!

[ShirChadash]

Well said, CE!yes, indeed!