Proper Practice for visiting Roman Catholic Churches

[ramesses]

This is something I keep meaning to ask but forget to.

What is the proper practice of an Orthodox person when he/she visits a Roman Catholic Church?

At the moment I take one of two options.
I most oftenly take option one.

i. cross oneself thrice (something I was told to do when entering an Orthodox church)...and then, shimmy over to the side aisle as soon as possible so as not to be in direct 'stare' of the tabernacle.

ii. "When in Rome, do as a Roman", genuflect, cross and shimmy quietly into the pew.

Then there's the whole question of the Holy Water.
Myself, I accept it. If I go with a R.C. friend, they will usually throw it at me if I don't take it myself :) .


I have much to learn.:blush:

[ramesses]

I suppose I don't want to offend (though I most probably do). But I also don't want to be heterodox.

I'm fairly certain I'm largely past the Convertitis phase...my prayer life gives testimony to that...I remember my early days when I wouldn't miss pronounce a single word out of a prayer...now I find myself mainly only saying Evening Prayers and not being bothered in the Morning :(. (but that is a largely different topic)

[authiodionitist]

Cross yourself once or three times or not at all when you enter/exit. Do not pray the prayers nor receive the "blessing" at communion. Simply stand and sit according to the ordo.


Forgive me.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Cross yourself once or three times or not at all when you enter/exit. Do not pray the prayers nor receive the "blessing" at communion. Simply stand and sit and do the prescribed acrobatics as a polite spectator. I advise against looking like you're praying - I mean, come on, the priest is facing you like it's a TV show. How can anyone pray like that? It is not a catholic Orthodox practice to pray in front of a tv screen on Sunday morning.......
I think your post is done with the least ammount of charity possible. Even I, a former Roman Catholic seminarian, would not post something as harsh sounding as that. "presecribed acrobatics?" "priest is facing you like a TV show?" This thread is not here to bash Rome, but rather to advise the OP as to how to pray in a non-Orthodox Church. Your antics are hardly needed here.

[Xpycoctomos]

I know others won't agree with me and that's totally understandable, but when I go I do the whole kit'n'kaboodle. I cross myself, use the holy water, genuflect and I kneel during the consecration (if that's what they do at that specific parish) or at least cross myself.

In my mind, I tell God that the most important thing to me is that I not ignore him in His presence. While I do not KNOW what goes on with the Eucharist in the RCC, my gut tells me that it's real (I'm not debating this point, I knwo others vehemently disagree with me and that's fine) so when I cross myself and kneel regardless of what is going on with the Host, I am still kneeling in honor of Christ. Despite my severe problems with the RCC in certain aspects, I look at them kind of like lost brothers and I can't shake that feeling, nor do I want to, to be honest.

My family is Lutheran and so there are times (once a year at the most) when we go for family purposes (baptisms, etc...). I also cross myself during the consecration there. I feel less sure about what goes on there, but when you have spent the majority of your life believing that that up their is the real Body and Blood of Christ, that's difficult to shake. The fact is, I will never know if it is or not (except in heaven if I care enough to know, I suppose) so I always show respect for what's going on and pray to God becuase I feel that it would be a bigger offense to act as if NOTHING is going on IF something is rather than specially concentrating on God and crossing myself during the Holy Words Christ said to His disciples that day in the upper room. I admit, this last one is more emotional and I could see why those who have never had an intimate attachment with the Lutheran Church would go in and not think anything of anything they're doing.

So I ramble... :)

John

[choirfiend]

I'd be respectful of the space, stand, sit, or kneel as required, but I wouldn't partake of anything in the space such as holy water or communion. I'd either cross myself whenever I normally do, or not at all, just being a respectful observer.

[Oblio]

I suppose the John Belushi/Animal House/Trial Scene 'cough' during the filioque would be a bit too noticeable :)

[SeraphimSarov]

I suppose the John Belushi/Animal House/Trial Scene 'cough' during the filioque would be a bit too noticeable :)
Not nearly as noticeable as when you're not paying attention and accidentally say it out of habit in an Orthodox church. Happened during my first month.

[Oblio]

Oooopsy :)

Did you not read FMG's 12 things ... ?

[fuerein]

Not nearly as noticeable as when you're not paying attention and accidentally say it out of habit in an Orthodox church. Happened during my first month.
There is an advantage to coming out of a church that never recites the creeds. Before attending a DL the last time I recited any of the creeds was in middle school (I attended a parochial middle school). Okay, I may have recited them about two years ago when I went to a Catholic Christmas Eve service just for the sake of it. But still I still don't come close to have it memorized, thus skipping the filioque isn't hard for me since I have no reason to think it should be there,

[SeraphimSarov]

Oooopsy :)

Did you not read FMG's 12 things ... ?
That I did. I was tarred, feathered and given 150 lashes, so I don't think I'll soon forget again!

[Xpycoctomos]

I think regardless of where any of us stand, the most important thing is that if we go into another Church we are respectful and try not to draw attention to ourselves or any personal disagreements we may have with something (yeah, I think the John Belushi method might be a bit on the tacky side, lol) and to "do as the Romans" (pun intended thank you very much :)) as far as we are able to in good conscience. If this gets to hard and it is like going to a circus figuratively jumping over obstacles wehre it is impossible not to be noticed, then we should do our best to avoid being in those circumstances.

One thing I don't do now is say the creed at other Churches. It's not a protest thing but 1) becuase I don't want to draw attention where I suddenly become silent at the filioque (that's what started me not saying it actually) and 2) since becoming Orthodox, the Creed has become something so intimate to me. This is not a knock on the Catholic or Lutheran Churches at all, but they have different versions of creeds (which is fine)... but in the Orthodox Church we have an affinity with the Nicene Creed. It is OUR Creed. It's not our preferred or most common Creed... rather THAT specific Creed defines us and it is all we have (liturgically) in regards to Creeds. So, I just feel wierd saying it in other parishes even though ANY prayer I read outloud with them, I read with the midset that I am just saying that prayer alone in my room and if I am not sure about a prayer, I don't say it, period. Becuase while I don't wish to offend God by assuming that He is not there (in fact I actually assume that He is there, at least in Spirit if not also physically), I don't want to arrogantly assume that I am somehow there to help create unity by praying WITH them in mind and spirit. The only prayer that will get us to unity is prayer FOR unity not praying as IF we are unified.

More rambles on my part. interesting thread.

John

[Michael the Iconographer]

It is scary, but I agree with John here. What good do you do yourself or the Orthodox Church by acting like a fool in anothers church? Why not set the best example possible and bring others to Christ through that example? Pray quietly and try not to make any waves and if anyone asks you what you think about the mass make sure you point out one or two positive things instead of a whole bunch of negatives.

[Silentchapel]

Now, I understand the way some of you see Roman Catholic sacraments, but I've seen a Mass where they used lace in vestments. I mean... C'mon! Lace + Valid sacraments? Two don't go hand by hand.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Now, I understand the way some of you see Roman Catholic sacraments, but I've seen a Mass where they used lace in vestments. I mean... C'mon! Lace + Valid sacraments? Two don't go hand by hand.
The lace albs were actually used PRIOR to Vatican II when the Liturgy of St. Gregory was prayed. Let me remind everyone on TAW that the Liturgy of St. Gregory (atleast the version prior to the changes made in the early 50s) is an AUTHENTIC Orthodox Liturgy. It predates the schism, even though alot was removed from it during the 900 years that it was in use. But nothing dogmatic was removed and thus it was still a valid liturgy, even if the schism made it illicit. I can't believe I am defending Rome here, however many of the objections being raised here against Rome are little more than pot shots and have very little to do with the actuall serious problems which Rome faces.

[Aristokles]

Visit a Roman Catholic church? Why?
First rule of proper practice: get my priest's permission which I've gotten only twice for weddings in the last 46 years.

[Xpycoctomos]

Visit a Roman Catholic church? Why?
First rule of proper practice: get my priest's permission which I've gotten only twice for weddings in the last 46 years.
Other people have familial reasons (or other reasons like... living in Spain 6 hours away from any Orthodox Church) for going. And if you get the sense that your priest is generally fine with you going as long as it is not to "check out" the Catholic Church, it's not necessary for everyone to ask their priest every time. Everyone's different.

John

[Xpycoctomos]

It is scary, but I agree with John here. What good do you do yourself or the Orthodox Church by acting like a fool in anothers church? Why not set the best example possible and bring others to Christ through that example? Pray quietly and try not to make any waves and if anyone asks you what you think about the mass make sure you point out one or two positive things instead of a whole bunch of negatives.
nice, succinct way of putting it.

[Xpycoctomos]

Now, I understand the way some of you see Roman Catholic sacraments, but I've seen a Mass where they used lace in vestments. I mean... C'mon! Lace + Valid sacraments? Two don't go hand by hand.
yeah, Jesus didn't say "Act like a complete sissy and do this in rememberance of Me."

lol

John

PS: to non-Orthodox here... it's a joke. ;)

[Lukaris]

Interestingly some Eastern Rite (Uniate) Catholic churches still say the Creed minus the filioque.

[Xpycoctomos]

Interestingly some Eastern Rite (Uniate) Catholic churches still say the Creed minus the filioque.
Actually this is being done more and more. The last pope highly encouraged it.

[vanshan]

I know love and familial ties may require an occassional visit to a heterodox worship service, but aren't we exhorted not to attend the services of the heterodox? We should submit to the Church's teaching on this, but that's between you and your priest, I guess.

I cannot image attending another mass or charismatic revival service.

Basil

[ramesses]

Now, I understand the way some of you see Roman Catholic sacraments, but I've seen a Mass where they used lace in vestments. I mean... C'mon! Lace + Valid sacraments? Two don't go hand by hand.

You should see the vast amount of lace on display in my college Anglo-Catholic chapel. :D

Myself, I think it makes them look like cute little dollies ^_^ .


Anyhow.
Thanks for some of the points here.
I do realise I have struck quite a controversial point in creating this thread.

The reason why I may visit a Roman Catholic Church is partly because I have R.C. friends (and it's only polite) and also because as part of my course next year we'll be visiting many different churches of different denominations in our "Church art, worship and architecture" module.

On the latter point, I'm going to see what others do first. ;)

[MamaBug]

My general operating attitude is that you treat their church/synagogue/mosque in the way you would hope visitors would treat yours. I usually limit my participation to the minimum outward forms (stand/sit/kneel).

It used to irk me to no end when I'd visit some of the beautiful Catholic churches in Europe and a gaggle of non-Catholic tourists would come barging in, loudly proclaiming their ignorance. Sometimes I just wanted to tell them that, while it may not be a Holy place to them, it is to those quietly worshipping so if they can't respect it then don't come in.

[Michael the Iconographer]

My general operating attitude is that you treat their church/synagogue/mosque in the way you would hope visitors would treat yours. I usually limit my participation to the minimum outward forms (stand/sit/kneel).

It used to irk me to no end when I'd visit some of the beautiful Catholic churches in Europe and a gaggle of non-Catholic tourists would come barging in, loudly proclaiming their ignorance. Sometimes I just wanted to tell them that, while it may not be a Holy place to them, it is to those quietly worshipping so if they can't respect it then don't come in.
Exactly! and the same ignorant people on this thread who are calling a Catholic mass a series of acrobatics and priest on TV would be incensed if Catholics and Protestants were to attend a Divine Liturgy and behave just as irreverently and disrespectfully. At my wedding I was the only Orthodox person there except for the priest and the choir and yet the church full of Protestants and Catholics and even (GASP!) atheists who attended showed the church and the service the proper respect it deserved. Thank God they didn't have some holier than thou attitude and act like total fools during the wedding.

[Shubunkin]

Our best man acted like a total fool at our wedding, or are they supposed to do that? :P

[Michael the Iconographer]

Our best man acted like a total fool at our wedding, or are they supposed to do that? :P
My best man is an admitted heathen, and yet has been my friend for life, and acted like a total gentleman inspite of the fact he was in a church he knew nothing about.

[authiodionitist]

READ THIS:
http://www.scoba.us/resources/documents/guide_for_orthodox.pdf


THEN TALK TO YOUR PRIEST!!!

[SeraphimSarov]

Our best man acted like a total fool at our wedding, or are they supposed to do that? :P
My best man had better not... and I'm actually quite worried that he will do something stupid...

I plan on asking my priest about this, indeed.

[cobweb]

My best man had better not... and I'm actually quite worried that he will do something stupid...

I plan on asking my priest about this, indeed.
They don't all act like fools.

The only crazy thing our best man did was trash our car. We were expecting that as a matter of tradition though.

[Mary of Bethany]

It is scary, but I agree with John here. What good do you do yourself or the Orthodox Church by acting like a fool in anothers church? Why not set the best example possible and bring others to Christ through that example? Pray quietly and try not to make any waves and if anyone asks you what you think about the mass make sure you point out one or two positive things instead of a whole bunch of negatives.

I tried to rep you for this, but . . . . seems I've repped you too much lately. ;)

Mary

[Xpycoctomos]

I know love and familial ties may require an occassional visit to a heterodox worship service, but aren't we exhorted not to attend the services of the heterodox? We should submit to the Church's teaching on this, but that's between you and your priest, I guess.

I cannot image attending another mass or charismatic revival service.

Basil
Consider yourself fortunate to be in a position that allows you not to have to imagine it. I honestly wish I never had to go, not becuase it offends me, but becuase often times when I go, it means I'm missing a DL and I have never left one of these nonOrthdoox services thinking "that was a nice break". lol

[MamaBug]

As my Momma always said - sometimes you just gotta do something because it's family. Luckily, we only get called on occassionally to attend a family or friend's child's 'dedication'. The only good thing about it is that it always reinforces the fact that I can never be Protestant again.

[DarkNLovely]

Why would an Orthodox visit a RCC church?

[buzuxi02]

Why would an Orthodox visit a RCC church?
As a cradle orthodox, im asking the same thing.

[Friul]

Why would an Orthodox visit a RCC church?
Family, friends, weddings, baptisms, etc. My entire family is RC (French and Italian roots) so I am sure I will be stepping foot into a Roman Catholic Church again soon enough. Plus history/architecture could play a role in visiting.

[SeraphimSarov]

Why would an Orthodox visit a RCC church?
As it turns out, everyone in my family that I still have contact with is Roman Catholic except me.

[Michael the Iconographer]

In a perfect world everyone would be Orthodox and their entire family would be Orthodox. But as it is, much of the Orthodox Church is made up of converts and many of those converts still have families that are either 1. Roman Catholic, 2. Protestant, 3. non-believers. This being the case, many of us are required to attend things such as baptisms, weddings, confirmations, etc. This is why an Orthodox would be required to attend a non-Orthodox service such as a Catholic mass. It is not that we are out there seeking to attend non-Orthodox services, but the facts of life often require us to do so. These occurances are times when we can witness to our faith by being reverent even when in a non-Orthodox house of worship. They are opportunities for us to quietly share our faith instead of acting like a fool.

[Lukaris]

Why would an Orthodox visit a RCC church?
Especially family/friends since they have had the courtesy to visit my parish and complimented it positively.

[Matrona]

I have to go to other religions' services for school sometimes, including a few masses. First, AYP for permission each time. Mine simply told me "don't commune" and he was so completely adamant about this that he didn't really say much else. Their communion is not of the Church, thus it is not the Body of the Lord, and so you must not partake, even if they tell you that it's okay. You can be seriously penanced by your actual priest for this.

However, mine did say it was okay to go for a blessing rather than taking their communion, and it would be a nice gesture of you to accept this if they've offered you their communion, to soften any perceived insult by your refusal to partake of their communion.

Other than that, stand up/sit down/kneel as they do, for politeness's sake.

However, the answer to whether you should cross yourself or not, though, should be obvious... are you praying as they do? As a catechumen or member of the Church, you shouldn't be praying with them, but only be there to observe. And while it can be perceived as "fitting in" to cross yourself when they do, as it is to stand up/sit down/kneel, it is terribly inappropriate to use the Sign of the Cross this way.

[ramesses]

I won't be attending prayers with them.

Just looking at the architecture etc....I'll try to visit during non-liturgical hours.

[Xpycoctomos]

I have to go to other religions' services for school sometimes, including a few masses. First, AYP for permission each time. Mine simply told me "don't commune" and he was so completely adamant about this that he didn't really say much else. Their communion is not of the Church, thus it is not the Body of the Lord, and so you must not partake, even if they tell you that it's okay. You can be seriously penanced by your actual priest for this.

However, mine did say it was okay to go for a blessing rather than taking their communion, and it would be a nice gesture of you to accept this if they've offered you their communion, to soften any perceived insult by your refusal to partake of their communion.

Other than that, stand up/sit down/kneel as they do, for politeness's sake.

However, the answer to whether you should cross yourself or not, though, should be obvious... are you praying as they do? As a catechumen or member of the Church, you shouldn't be praying with them, but only be there to observe. And while it can be perceived as "fitting in" to cross yourself when they do, as it is to stand up/sit down/kneel, it is terribly inappropriate to use the Sign of the Cross this way.
Matrona, while I see your logic, people could easily find it all the MORE offensive to go up to a leader of another religion and get their blessing. I'm not saying you should. you are following whta your priest told you. But that is surely not the norm on "how to act in a heterdox church" by any means. Not saying there is a norm at all, but I know priest said I should have NOTHING to do with approaching their chalice in ANY way, even if just to go for a blessing. But if I cross myself and kneel, that's fine unless the words themselves are anti-christian. I'm not giving this as advice, but I am merely saying that there are many priests and Orthodox in general that would feel the opposite of what you said here at the end of the post.

John

PS: I was not referring to the exhortation not to commune despite what the church you are visiting said. That is indeed a norm among all Orthodox and not up for question.