Question for the Rabbi

[GerTzedek]

Rabbi: I have a question right up your ally. Some very FEW Christians I know have said that should Jewish law ever be restored to Israel, that Christians would be prosecuted for idolatry. Can you comment on this?

[TheRabbi]

No non-Jews would be allowed to live in the land of Israel unless they were Bnei Noach and if Bnei Noach are found to be in violation of the laws of Avodah Zarah, I believe they would get the death penalty. I am not an expert in laws relating to Bnei Noach, I'll ask and get back to you.

Also, understand that the standard for proof in such matters is so strenuous that the Sanhedrin would almost never have to enforce it. This is true of all Capital cases. There is a Gemara that tells us that a Sanhedrin that enforced the death penalty once in seventy years was to be deemed a "bloody Sanhedrin".

[GerTzedek]

No non-Jews would be allowed to live in the land of Israel unless they were Bnei Noach and if Bnei Noach are found to be in violation of the laws of Avodah Zarah, I believe they would get the death penalty. I am not an expert in laws relating to Bnei Noach, I'll ask and get back to you.

Also, understand that the standard for proof in such matters is so strenuous that the Sanhedrin would almost never have to enforce it. This is true of all Capital cases. There is a Gemara that tells us that a Sanhedrin that enforced the death penalty once in seventy years was to be deemed a "bloody Sanhedrin".
Interesting. So, Jews that were Yeshua-believers? Death penalty?

I've heard that the two groups moving to Israel are the Orthodox and the Messianics, and that Secular Jews are leaving.

[muffler dragon]

No non-Jews would be allowed to live in the land of Israel unless they were Bnei Noach and if Bnei Noach are found to be in violation of the laws of Avodah Zarah, I believe they would get the death penalty. I am not an expert in laws relating to Bnei Noach, I'll ask and get back to you.

It will be interesting if we ever get to that point in time in our lifetimes. :D

Also, understand that the standard for proof in such matters is so strenuous that the Sanhedrin would almost never have to enforce it. This is true of all Capital cases. There is a Gemara that tells us that a Sanhedrin that enforced the death penalty once in seventy years was to be deemed a "bloody Sanhedrin".

Have any ever been so deemed?

[ChavaK]

Interesting. So, Jews that were Yeshua-believers? Death penalty?

Christianity is not avodah zara for non-Jews; for Jews
it is so yes they would be laible for death. However,
as the Rabbi said, capitol punish was very seldom
enacted. However, I would suspect that for avodah
zara the punishment would be more severe than for
other sins-and perhaps capitol punishment would be
enacted for these cases. I beleive karet is enacted
for Jews who lead other Jews to avodah zara,
but whether this also translates into physical death
I don't know. But they will definitely have to answer
to Hashem in Olam Habah.

I've heard that the two groups moving to Israel are the Orthodox and the Messianics, and that Secular Jews are leaving.
I've known many people who have made aliyah and most
were Orthodox. Messanics are not allowed to make
aliyah under Israeli law. There are some Jews (usually
secular) that move from Israel, generaly for financial
reasons...it can be very tough to make a living there...
at least that is the reason I hear most often from
Israelis who have left...

[muffler dragon]

There are some Jews (usually
secular) that move from Israel, generaly for financial
reasons...it can be very tough to make a living there...
at least that is the reason I hear most often from
Israelis who have left...

Thanks for sharing this, Chava. I've never been privy to knowing what kind of industries are available in Israel, but it's a shame people have difficulty being able to support a living.

[TheRabbi]

The Christian belief in a being that has the power to mount a rebellion against God is in and of itself Avodah Zarah. This belief ascribes power to something other than God and is akin to Zoroastrian dualism.

[GerTzedek]

The Christian belief in a being that has the power to mount a rebellion against God is in and of itself Avodah Zarah. This belief ascribes power to something other than God and is akin to Zoroastrian dualism.
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying there is no free will? That we humans may not rebel against G-d? Didn't Jacob wrestle with G-d?

[ChavaK]

Thanks for sharing this, Chava. I've never been privy to knowing what kind of industries are available in Israel, but it's a shame people have difficulty being able to support a living.

Unfortunately it is true, especially for Americans who
are used to a much higher wage and living standard.
For instance, I have a friend who recently made aliyah
who is an RN- and you know they command high
salaries here. In Israel they make $7.00 an hour (and
no, that is not a typo).
You know the old joke- how do you make a small
fortune in Israel? Start off with a big one....
there is a definite kernel of truth to it...
But most people do manage to survive- being up
to your ears in debt seems to be the standard
in Israel, but they always somehow seem to make
ends meet...

[ChavaK]

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying there is no free will? That we humans may not rebel against G-d? Didn't Jacob wrestle with G-d?

I think he is referring to HaSatan- that Christians believe he is
a fallen angel, who has independent power to rebel against G-d.
This is a much different view of HaSatan than the Jewish one...

[TheRabbi]

My first job in Israel payed much less than my last job in America. My second job paid about the same. My current job pays more than I ever made in America. You can be a very happy poor person in Israel. I know, I was one for many years.

Being poor is not as stressful in Israel. Medical bills are the number one cause of bankruptcy in America. In Israel, we don't have medical bills. I just took out a loan for thousands of dollars for my son's Bar Mitzvah this Sunday. Do you think I'm paying interest? No way. I called up a friend who runs a free loan society. I get to pay it back over 18 months with no interest. One 2 minute call and I got the money.
How common is that in America?

I always used to say, I've never had less and I've never been more content.

An Israeli will always have some big excuse for not living here. The bottom line is, they want to live like goyim. They have had Goy envy their entire lives and they would live in a gutter as long as it was in Paris or Miami. I remember very well the lady on the news who gave terrorism as her excuse for leaving Israel to live in London. She was killed in the London bus/train bombings.

All the money in America is not worth the view from my balcony. The land comes at a price and I just don't have the kishkes to tell the creator of heaven and earth that his land is not worth paying for.

I'd rather be a dog in Israel than a king anywhere else.

[visionary]

The Christian belief in a being that has the power to mount a rebellion against God is in and of itself Avodah Zarah. This belief ascribes power to something other than God and is akin to Zoroastrian dualism.Well, both sides agree that there is an adversary. Only in three passages do we find reference to HaSatan (the accuser, the adversary) as an angel: Zechariah 3:1-2 (he appears as an accuser); Job 1:12 (he is the "heavenly prosecutor"); and 1 Chronicles 21:1 (he functions as the seducer, taking over a negative role originally ascribed to G-d in 2 Samuel 24:1).

[muffler dragon]

My first job in Israel payed much less than my last job in America. My second job paid about the same. My current job pays more than I ever made in America. You can be a very happy poor person in Israel. I know, I was one for many years.

Being poor is not as stressful in Israel. Medical bills are the number one cause of bankruptcy in America. In Israel, we don't have medical bills. I just took out a loan for thousands of dollars for my son's Bar Mitzvah this Sunday. Do you think I'm paying interest? No way. I called up a friend who runs a free loan society. I get to pay it back over 18 months with no interest. One 2 minute call and I got the money.
How common is that in America?

I always used to say, I've never had less and I've never been more content.

Would it be proper to call the Israeli economy socialistic or communistic (in the purest sense of the words)?

An Israeli will always have some big excuse for not living here. The bottom line is, they want to live like goyim. They have had Goy envy their entire lives and they would live in a gutter as long as it was in Paris or Miami. I remember very well the lady on the news who gave terrorism as her excuse for leaving Israel to live in London. She was killed in the London bus/train bombings.

All the money in America is not worth the view from my balcony. The land comes at a price and I just don't have the kishkes to tell the creator of heaven and earth that his land is not worth paying for.

I'd rather be a dog in Israel than a king anywhere else.

Thanks for sharing.

[muffler dragon]

Well, both sides agree that there is an adversary.

And that's where it stops. Like I mentioned to you a LONG time ago in your Satan thread, the Christian POV regarding HaSatan has no basis in Judaism. It's completely pagan (whether that be Zoroastrian or Gnostic).

[visionary]

And that's where it stops. Like I mentioned to you a LONG time ago in your Satan thread, the Christian POV regarding HaSatan has no basis in Judaism. It's completely pagan (whether that be Zoroastrian or Gnostic).Oh, I agree that is where is stops... not too sure that it is completely pagan as Yeshua in dealing with the adversary on numerous occasions revealed where, and how much influence hasatan had on the people of His day. Yeshua was/is not pagan in ideology, and He found the works of hasatan in temptations, in the possession of souls, in the wrong thinking of Peter and scribes and Pharisees unbeknownst to them.

[muffler dragon]

Oh, I agree that is where is stops... not too sure that it is completely pagan as Yeshua in dealing with the adversary on numerous occasions revealed where, and how much influence hasatan had on the people of His day. Yeshua was/is not pagan in ideology, and He found the works of hasatan in temptations, in the possession of souls, in the wrong thinking of Peter and scribes and Pharisees unbeknownst to them.

Temptation, possession, and wrong thinking are not necessarily works of an entity with free-will.

[stone]

Why was Job inflicted?

[muffler dragon]

Why was Job inflicted?

Stone:

Shooting from the hip with my memory. If I'm not mistaken, Jewish tradition attributes the authorship of Job to Moses. I believe that I also read that the punishment Job endured happened because he kept his mouth shut when he should have spoken in someone's defense. The morale that I remember reading was that it's just as bad to not speak in someone's defense as it is not to act.

If I find something; then I'll add it here.

[ContraMundum]

The Christian belief in a being that has the power to mount a rebellion against God is in and of itself Avodah Zarah. This belief ascribes power to something other than God and is akin to Zoroastrian dualism.

There is no such belief in orthodox Christianity, so you are mistaken.

The correct theology is that Satan has no power other than what God has allowed him, as in the story of Job, and thus Satan merely *attempted* to rebel against God, which of course is impossible.

Better throw away your anti-missionary books. They've misled you.

[GerTzedek]

Why was Job inflicted?
Unknown. We are never told the reason why G-d allows the innocent to suffer. G-d never answers Job's questions. Rather, G-d gives Job an encounter with his awesome holiness.

The answer to the question is not the answer, but the Answerer.

[GerTzedek]

I believe that I also read that the punishment Job endured happened because he kept his mouth shut when he should have spoken in someone's defense..Another "Job's comforter." Will they never cease? "You must have done something wrong to bring this upon yourself!"

Or I just loooove (NOT) the modern version..."You obviously don't have enough faith, or you would be healed."

Blaim the victim.

HaShem intended to punish Job's "friends." They were spared only because Job pleaded for mercy on their behalf.

[visionary]

http://video.aol.com/video/tv-job-devils-test/1774054

Interesting video.. here is a sample

[stone]

Stone:

Shooting from the hip with my memory. If I'm not mistaken, Jewish tradition attributes the authorship of Job to Moses. I believe that I also read that the punishment Job endured happened because he kept his mouth shut when he should have spoken in someone's defense. The morale that I remember reading was that it's just as bad to not speak in someone's defense as it is not to act.

If I find something; then I'll add it here.


Is chronological order of any importance in scriptures? If so i would say that this hints that Job lived dureing or after Daniel.


***

Eze 14:14Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

[stone]

Unknown. We are never told the reason why G-d allows the innocent to suffer. G-d never answers Job's questions. Rather, G-d gives Job an encounter with his awesome holiness.

The answer to the question is not the answer, but the Answerer.

There is an answer. It's the rightousness of man that is uncorruptable, this is proven again and again.

[GerTzedek]

I was taught at Westmont University that Job was suspected to be the oldest book in the Bible, written even before the Penteteuch, and that it is a Play, to be acted upon a stage.

[stone]

Suspected is a good word to use. The septuagint is the oldest text intact isn't it, even older than any of the Masoretic text that remains?

[muffler dragon]

There is no such belief in orthodox Christianity, so you are mistaken.

The correct theology is that Satan has no power other than what God has allowed him, as in the story of Job, and thus Satan merely *attempted* to rebel against God, which of course is impossible.

Better throw away your anti-missionary books. They've misled you.

Truth be told, CM, TR has explained it just like my Protestant upbringing. In the churches I grew up, Satan had free reign to inflict any and all things that he wanted to. It took fervant prayer and direct interaction of G-d to stop him.

[GerTzedek]

Suspected is a good word to use. The septuagint is the oldest text intact isn't it, even older than any of the Masoretic text that remains?
The Septuagint is a collection of teh books, Job being one of them.

The oldest manuscripts of the LXX include 2nd century BC fragments of Leviticus and Deuteronomy and 1st century BC fragments of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and the Minor Prophets.

The oldest Masoretic manuscripts belong to the period around 900 A.D. The Hebrew manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls date back to the 2nd century BC.

[muffler dragon]

Is chronological order of any importance in scriptures?

Beats me.

If so i would say that this hints that Job lived dureing or after Daniel.


***

Eze 14:14Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

I guess you'd have a point if Noach lived then as well. :)

[stone]

Beats me.



I guess you'd have a point if Noach lived then as well. :)

True, but why would a prophet categorize someone depicted from a play along with other prophets?

As far as chronology goes, then how its listed here would indicate that Job lived after Daniel, but then that doesn't make any sense since, Ezekiel lived at the same time as Daniel.

Either way, i don't believe Job is a dramatic play. It could have later been made into one, but i believe its based on his story recorded with a mans pen.

[Zahava]

My first job in Israel payed much less than my last job in America. My second job paid about the same. My current job pays more than I ever made in America. You can be a very happy poor person in Israel. I know, I was one for many years. .

I want to move to Israel. My husband is from there. I don't speak Hebrew very well. How are the English speaking Jobs?

One 2 minute call and I got the money. How common is that in America?.
But we do have free loan societies here in America. We had to use one. Boruch HaShem we paid it off.

All the money in America is not worth the view from my balcony. The land comes at a price and I just don't have the kishkes to tell the creator of heaven and earth that his land is not worth paying for.

OH HOW I WANT TO BE IN ISRAEL! IY'H very soon. Tamar on Arutz 7 has a great blogposting on reasons/excuses Yidden give to not making aliyah

[muffler dragon]

True, but why would a prophet categorize someone depicted from a play along with other prophets?

Stone:

I don't recall ever saying that Job was imaginary. I believe (and Jewish traditions is in agreement) that Job is a real character. I'm not sure if the contents of the book are all considered factual, but the person has a historicity as far as I know. Sorry for leading you to believe that I was insinuating anything else.

[TheRabbi]

There is no such belief in orthodox Christianity, so you are mistaken.

The correct theology is that Satan has no power other than what God has allowed him, as in the story of Job, and thus Satan merely *attempted* to rebel against God, which of course is impossible.

Better throw away your anti-missionary books. They've misled you.
The beliefs of the orthodox Christian church don't really concern me. If they who bow to statues and venerate pictures don't believe in a rebellious angel, good for them.

The new testament, however, does believe in him and goes into great detail about his nature and power. When the NT calls him "The god of this world" that is pure dualism. When Revelation tells us that there was war in heaven and that the devil and his angels waged war, that is dualism.

Before you rush to put that anti-missionary book in my hand, understand that I'm the last person you want to get into this kind of exchange with. I'm slightly familiar with "one or two" verses of the New Testament. I've examined a few variant manuscripts and fragments, both in transcription and original and I'm exposed to more flavors of Christianity in a week than you will see in your lifetime.

Since you are obviously an expert on Christianity and I'm just getting my info from an anti-missionary book, maybe you'd like to continue our exchange in Koine or Aramaic?

[visionary]

The beliefs of the orthodox Christian church don't really concern me. If they who bow to statues and venerate pictures don't believe in a rebellious angel, good for them.

The new testament, however, does believe in him and goes into great detail about his nature and power. When the NT calls him "The god of this world" that is pure dualism. When Revelation tells us that there was war in heaven and that the devil and his angels waged war, that is dualism.

Before you rush to put that anti-missionary book in my hand, understand that I'm the last person you want to get into this kind of exchange with. I'm slightly familiar with "one or two" verses of the New Testament. I've examined a few variant manuscripts and fragments, both in transcription and original and I'm exposed to more flavors of Christianity in a week than you will see in your lifetime.

Since you are obviously an expert on Christianity and I'm just getting my info from an anti-missionary book, maybe you'd like to continue our exchange in Koine or Aramaic?I agree.:clap: There is a war going on... and those who do not believe there is one have already got one behind the eight ball.

[muffler dragon]

I agree.:clap: There is a war going on... and those who do not believe there is one have already got one behind the eight ball.

Are you saying that you agree that Revelation presents a picture of dualism?

[TheRabbi]

Understand that the Satan is my accuser. The Satan is my adversary, not God's. The Satan is an officer of the heavenly Court. It's his job to accuse. It's what he was created for.
When the Bible tells us that God provoked David to count the people and then turns around and tells us that it was the Satan provoked David, there is no contradiction for the Jew, since the Satan works for God.

The Satan is a prosecutor and accuser in the heavenly court who is given authority to prove his case against individuals by presenting them with opportunities to incriminate themselves.

I challenge anyone to show me a Satan different than this in the Hebrew Bible.

[ContraMundum]

The beliefs of the orthodox Christian church don't really concern me.

if you choose to speak against the beliefs of the Church, then get them right first.

So, I'd suggest that they do indeed concern you if you enter into debate with them.

If they who bow to statues and venerate pictures don't believe in a rebellious angel, good for them.

This, coming from someone who reads the Torah?

I expected better.

The new testament, however, does believe in him and goes into great detail about his nature and power. When the NT calls him "The god of this world" that is pure dualism. When Revelation tells us that there was war in heaven and that the devil and his angels waged war, that is dualism.

You fail to understand the nature of the NT is you think that dualism is what is being taught. Don't worry, you're not to blame for that.

Have you ever studied dualism, it's origins, it's influence on your own religion, or is it somethng you Googled? They way I read it, you have no idea what it really is.

Before you rush to put that anti-missionary book in my hand


The second you post anti-Christian stuff on a predominantly Christian website, you are engaging in the same tactic as the anti-missionaries. That is your motive- to attack Christianity and Christians, whether you realise it or not. What's worse is that you're talking like an authority who has the authority to speak on the doctrines of Christianity, when you're not.

understand that I'm the last person you want to get into this kind of exchange with. I'm slightly familiar with "one or two" verses of the New Testament. I've examined a few variant manuscripts and fragments, both in transcription and original and I'm exposed to more flavors of Christianity in a week than you will see in your lifetime.

Sorry, but before you get all cocky about your pontifications regarding Christian theology, understand that I'm "the last person you want to get into this kind of exchange with". I'm no casual observer. I'm a graduate of a fine seminary and have studied the texts under discipline, not just casually or with only a search engine.

Since you are obviously an expert on Christianity and I'm just getting my info from an anti-missionary book, maybe you'd like to continue our exchange in Koine or Aramaic?

Why would you want to do something as silly as that? To hide something from the readers? English is fine. This is a public forum- even your heroes like Tovia Singer don't try to debate in a language no one speaks or understands. I would never do that- because my halacha says that such things are not to be opportunities to show off to win the praise of mere mortals.

If you have a smicha, then speak for the community that gave it to you. Don't speak for another community.

[TheRabbi]

Yes, I am cocky, because I can deliver the goods. I speak the aforementioned languages (including two dialects of one these "languages that no one speaks or understands") If you can't, then you have no business telling me what a text written in those languages does or does not mean. I notice that you had no comment on the actual verses that I quoted. That's quite telling.

I'm interested in what the texts say and what most Christians believe. You present the opinion of orthodoxy as if it is the majority opinion. If you want to continue hurling personal barbs, knock yourself out, "Moderator".

I'm confident that most people viewing the thread understand what this behavior says for your scholarship and the strength of your position.

[HadassahSukkot]

There is no such belief in orthodox Christianity, so you are mistaken.

The correct theology is that Satan has no power other than what God has allowed him, as in the story of Job, and thus Satan merely *attempted* to rebel against God, which of course is impossible.

Better throw away your anti-missionary books. They've misled you.
This is also my belief.

[visionary]

Are you saying that you agree that Revelation presents a picture of dualism?I know, unfair war, but insanity never made sense.

[visionary]

Yes, I am cocky, because I can deliver the goods. I speak the aforementioned languages (including two dialects of one these "languages that no one speaks or understands") If you can't, then you have no business telling me what a text written in those languages does or does not mean. I notice that you had no comment on the actual verses that I quoted. That's quite telling.

I'm interested in what the texts say and what most Christians believe. You present the opinion of orthodoxy as if it is the majority opinion. If you want to continue hurling personal barbs, knock yourself out, "Moderator".

I'm confident that most people viewing the thread understand what this behavior says for your scholarship and the strength of your position.I agree

[ChavaK]

I want to move to Israel.
Me too hopefully after I retire in a couple of years...
although I think I will probably only be able to live
there half the year, half the year here...:(

But we do have free loan societies here in America. We had to use one.
We also have a small one here in our community,
but thank G-d few people have to use it....



OH HOW I WANT TO BE IN ISRAEL!

You and me both....:)

[MessianicRabbi]

Understand that the Satan is my accuser. The Satan is my adversary, not God's.
This is backed by the verse:

James 4:7 Therefore, submit to G-d. Moreover, take a stand against the Adversary, and he will flee from you.

The command here is to us. It tells us to take the stand and HaSatan will flee. There is no other indication here and the Adversary stands against G-d nor that G-d needs to stand against the Adversary so that he will flee.

[muffler dragon]

This is backed by the verse:

James 4:7 Therefore, submit to G-d. Moreover, take a stand against the Adversary, and he will flee from you.

The command here is to us. It tells us to take the stand and HaSatan will flee. There is no other indication here and the Adversary stands against G-d nor that G-d needs to stand against the Adversary so that he will flee.

Further evidence that James was more Judaic than Paul or John. However, this is not indicative of the presentation throughout the whole of the Christian testament.

[GerTzedek]

This is backed by the verse:

James 4:7 Therefore, submit to G-d. Moreover, take a stand against the Adversary, and he will flee from you.

The command here is to us. It tells us to take the stand and HaSatan will flee. There is no other indication here and the Adversary stands against G-d nor that G-d needs to stand against the Adversary so that he will flee.
MessianicRabbi, welcome to the forum. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Are you with UMJC or MJAA? What is your congration? Where did you do your schooling? Are we all driving you nuts?

If the answer is no, we will try harder! :D

Shalom

[ChavaK]

The new testament, however, does believe in him and goes into great detail about his nature and power. When the NT calls him "The god of this world" that is pure dualism. When Revelation tells us that there was war in heaven and that the devil and his angels waged war, that is dualism.

I'm slightly familiar with "one or two" verses of the New Testament. I've examined a few variant manuscripts and fragments, both in transcription and original
Since you are obviously an expert on Christianity and I'm just getting my info from an anti-missionary book, maybe you'd like to continue our exchange in Koine or Aramaic?

So, out of curiosity.....how does a Chassid know Greek
and the Greek Testament?
:wave:

[ContraMundum]

Yes, I am cocky, because I can deliver the goods. I speak the aforementioned languages (including two dialects of one these "languages that no one speaks or understands") If you can't, then you have no business telling me what a text written in those languages does or does not mean. I notice that you had no comment on the actual verses that I quoted. That's quite telling.

I'm pretty good at Koine, Latin, and Hebrew- the three required languages for orders in my neck of the woods. Your ad-hominem is a waste of time.

I'm interested in what the texts say and what most Christians believe.

Than ask about it, don't teach it.

You present the opinion of orthodoxy as if it is the majority opinion.

It *IS the majority position in Christianity. My goodness, if you think it isn't show us. It might not be the majority position on this little forum, but this forum does not represent the views of the over 1 Billion Christians that belong to churches that align themselves with classical Christian orthodoxy.

If you want to continue hurling personal barbs, knock yourself out, "Moderator".

What's "personal" about correcting you, a person who comes here to attack us? I'm merely pointing out mis-reprersentations when I see them. Take it personally? Go ahead, just remember that anti-misisonary stufff like what you have posted is not welcome here and according to the rules this could be deleted. As a "moderator", I am obligated, if someone formally complains, to act on that, and I will if I have to. As a religious man with a responsibility to defend the truth, I'm obligated to defend what I believe.

So, go ahead and try to undermine the forum, its religion, and its moderators, but don't expect me to sit and watch and let you get away with it. I'm happy to take on what I see as suspicious behaviour.

I'm confident that most people viewing the thread understand what this behavior says for your scholarship and the strength of your position.

Coming from you, that's just a load of bollocks. a) You haven't tested my scholarship, and I'm happy for you to do it- for all to see. b) If I seem edgy with you, it's just that I don't trust you, or your motives for being here. By the way, from the PMs I'm getting, not many do either.

[ContraMundum]

I agree

You agree someone can come here and accuse you of being a heretic? ...and yet when others defend your religion you back your accuser?

Weird.

[ContraMundum]

So, out of curiosity.....how does a Chassid know Greek
and the Greek Testament?
:wave:

It would be the first Chasid I've heard of who knew or even read the Greek NT, and I've been around them for ages- even my cousin had a Chasid mohel. What's worse is that most Chasids I know, including three who I know as Rabbis, haven't a clue about Christianity and don't even want to know about it. (They're not even worded up properly on other Jews [eg Reform etc] half the time!)
:D

[visionary]

You agree someone can come here and accuse you of being a heretic? ...and yet when others defend your religion you back your accuser?

Weird.I agreeing that is the historical opinion of the Jews since Yeshua. Good thing the rabbi has never called me a heretic.

[TheRabbi]

Go ahead, just remember that anti-misisonary stufff like what you have posted is not welcome here and according to the rules this could be deleted.

Oh great and mighty moderator. You can fix the entire thread by deleting everything except the original question that started it and I could put in a new response like, "I'm sorry Messianic believer, I the Jew, can't answer your question because the Messianic forum's Anglican moderator wouldn't like it".

[visionary]

Oh great and mighty moderator. You can fix the entire thread by deleting everything except the original question that started it and I could put in a new response like, "I'm sorry Messianic believer, I the Jew, can't answer your question because the Messianic forum's Anglican moderator wouldn't like it".Fofl:D

[TheRabbi]

So, out of curiosity.....how does a Chassid know Greek
and the Greek Testament?

I'm a Nadvorna Hassid. I'm also an Archaeologist and if I didn't know Greek I couldn't read much of the stuff coming out of the ground. I would'nt be able to read the septuagint, I wouldn't be able to read many of the Qumran fragments and I wouldn't be able to understand all of the thousands of Greek words found in the Mishnah, Gemara, Shulchan Aruch and Zohar.

In addition, whether we like or not and whether it's an accurate record or not, the New Testament is in fact one of the major sources of information on late 2nd Temple Judaism.

I completely understand the concern and curiosity over my presence here and I welcome the questions.

Please understand that when a thread is created by asking me if an empowered Sanhedrin would execute Christians as idolaters, I am obligated to answer as honestly as I can. I didn't start the thread and I didn't bring the issue up. I gave as accurate an answer as I could.

I didn't come here to debate about who the Messiah is. I didn't come here to debate whether Gentiles are obligated to observe Torah. I came here because I know that people have questions about Orthodox Judaism and many of them have no one to ask. I came here because I believe many of these people are misunderstood by the majority of Jews. I came here because I believe that these people deserve answers and understanding instead of being cursed and reviled.

[visionary]

I'm a Nadvorna Hassid. I'm also an Archaeologist and if I didn't know Greek I couldn't read much of the stuff coming out of the ground. I would'nt be able to read the septuagint, I wouldn't be able to read many of the Qumran fragments and I wouldn't be able to understand all of the thousands of Greek words found in the Mishnah, Gemara, Shulchan Aruch and Zohar.

In addition, whether we like or not and whether it's an accurate record or not, the New Testament is in fact one of the major sources of information on late 2nd Temple Judaism.

I completely understand the concern and curiosity over my presence here and I welcome the questions.

Please understand that when a thread is created by asking me if an empowered Sanhedrin would execute Christians as idolaters, I am obligated to answer as honestly as I can. I didn't start the thread and I didn't bring the issue up. I gave as accurate an answer as I could.

I didn't come here to debate about who the Messiah is. I didn't come here to debate whether Gentiles are obligated to observe Torah. I came here because I know that people have questions about Orthodox Judaism and many of them have no one to ask. I came here because people I believe many of these people are misunderstood by the majority of Jews. I came here because I believe that these people deserve answers and understanding instead of being cursed and reviled.
Bless your heart... and thank you for coming here... God does provide answers to prayer.:bow:

[ContraMundum]

Oh great and mighty moderator. You can fix the entire thread by deleting everything except the original question that started it and I could put in a new response like, "I'm sorry Messianic believer, I the Jew, can't answer your question because the Messianic forum's Anglican moderator wouldn't like it".

You didn't "just" answer the question, you proceeded to critique (badly) Christianity without substance. If you had just answered the question and no more I would not have had a problem with you.

By the way- I'm not convinced you are here to answer.

[Codger]

Deleted

[ContraMundum]

In addition, whether we like or not and whether it's an accurate record or not, the New Testament is in fact one of the major sources of information on late 2nd Temple Judaism.

People like yourself are very quick to point out that the Torah cannot be understood without the accompanying traditions that have been interpretive for centuries.

You might be a little more charitable towards Christians and their religion if you extended that same courtesy to the New testament, and rather than make baseless claims like it teaches "dualism" allow the informed Christian tradition to interpret it.

Christianity, despite some of its adherents claims, is not a D-I-Y religion where everyone's opinion is correct and one if free to pick and choose.

I completely understand the concern and curiosity over my presence here and I welcome the questions.

I don't think you completely appreciate it, actually. This forum has a history of people misrepresenting themselves as Jewish, people criticizing Messianics and people having sock puppets.

In the light of this, we are cautious of your claims, and despite you having a cheer squad of one, I am one of them.

II came here because I believe many of these people are misunderstood by the majority of Jews. I came here because I believe that these people deserve answers and understanding instead of being cursed and reviled.

There are a number of people who can answer for Orthodox Judaism here, many of them regular posters.

I don't agree that people with questions about Judaism are cursed and reviled here. How would you come to such a conclusion unless you've been here for a while and drew that (wrong IMHO) conclusion yourself or unless you're being coached by someone? Have you been posting here under another name?

[ContraMundum]

I agreeing that is the historical opinion of the Jews since Yeshua..

I have no idea what you mean here, vis.

Good thing the rabbi has never called me a heretic.

Actually, he did. He accused all of us of being heretics of the worst kind.

[visionary]

I have no idea what you mean here, vis.



Actually, he did. He accused all of us of being heretics of the worst kind.Show me where..

[ContraMundum]

Vis...

When the NT calls him "The god of this world" that is pure dualism. When Revelation tells us that there was war in heaven and that the devil and his angels waged war, that is dualism.

The Christian belief in a being that has the power to mount a rebellion against God is in and of itself Avodah Zarah. This belief ascribes power to something other than God and is akin to Zoroastrian dualism.

Dualism is a word that is used in many theological contexts, but in the context of divinity, which is what this guy is alluding to, it is a heresy of the highest order- refuted by the Jews and the Church which follows their revelation. Clearly, this guy's interpretation of the NT is incorrect. It's a standard tactic of the anti-missionaries to use the NT to make accusations about it the Church (a custodian of the whole of scripture and certainly the receiver of the New Testament) has never made or recieved.

[TheRabbi]

I don't agree that people with questions about Judaism are cursed and reviled here. How would you come to such a conclusion unless you've been here for a while and drew that (wrong IMHO) conclusion yourself or unless you're being coached by someone? Have you been posting here under another name?
No, I have not been posting here under another name. As a moderator, don't you have any ability to check if my posts are coming from an Israeli IP address?

I was not referring to people being cursed and reviled on this forum, but in the Jewish community.

[ContraMundum]

No, I have not been posting here under another name. As a moderator, don't you have any ability to check if my posts are coming from an Israeli IP address?

Not really, no. That's a bit higher up the food chain.

I was not referring to people being cursed and reviled on this forum, but in the Jewish community.

OK....you mean...? Who gets reviled and cursed in the Jewish community?

[TheRabbi]

Again, I wasn't asked if Christianity was idolatry. I was asked how a Jewish court would rule. The Rambam, not once, but at least 3 times that I know of, rules that Christianity is indeed Avodah Zarah. I have to assume that any court would be inclined to agree with him.

I answered the first time by avoiding actually saying it. But I was then asked to clarify if Christians would get the death penalty. Believe me, I'd much rather avoid this kind of topic altogether.

[TheRabbi]

I mean that Messianics are cursed and reviled in the Jewish community. It's a sad fact. But it is a fact. I know there are places where messianics are tolerated and sometimes even welcomed. But this is often not hte case. When I lived in America (I was not a hassid then. I was conservative), I had them banned from the premises of the synagogue. This was wrong, I was wrong.

[visionary]

I mean that Messianics are cursed and reviled in the Jewish community. It's a sad fact. But it is a fact. I know there are places where messianics are tolerated and sometimes even welcomed. But this is often not hte case. When I lived in America (I was not a hassid then. I was conservative), I had them banned from the premises of the synagogue. This was wrong, I was wrong.One day...Avodah Zarah will no longer something that Messianic Judaism is called.

[ContraMundum]

I mean that Messianics are cursed and reviled in the Jewish community.

Why would that concern you?

When I first converted to Christianity, I was reviled and cursed, but now that's changed. No one seems to care- most just think I'm misguided and that I'll come around.

I think it is different from place to place, and from person to person.

I had them banned from the premises of the synagogue. This was wrong, I was wrong.

In your shoes I would have done the same.

[TheRabbi]

If I started showing up in your church because I wanted to know more about what you believe and how you conduct your rituals, you would have me kicked out?

Is that really what you want to be? It's what I was and I like to think I've grown past that.

[visionary]

If I started showing up in your church because I wanted to know more about what you believe and how you conduct your rituals, you would have me kicked out?

Is that really what you want to be? It's what I was and I like to think I've grown past that.If you are interested in coming to my Messianc Congregation, we would be more than honored with your presence.

[ContraMundum]

If I started showing up in your church because I wanted to know more about what you believe and how you conduct your rituals, you would have me kicked out?

Of course not. But I know that Churches are mainly missionary in doctrine, but synagogues are not.

If a Messianic came asking quesitons at the synagogues I grew up in, they would have been viewed with the utmost suspicion. Perhaps questions would have bene tolerated at first, but after a while, when the MJs got preachy, they would have been asked to leave.

Is that really what you want to be? It's what I was and I like to think I've grown past that.

I said I would have *in your shoes* too. I'm not like that now, nor would I be. You'd be welcome in our church, because we know we have good things to share for all.

[TheRabbi]

I have no problem with that. I was in America for the entire month of July and I did visit one messianic congregation. I did a presentation on recent discoveries in the City of David. I even had a BBQ with them. Now anyone who was there will know who I am. So I ask that you keep my personal identity quiet and offline.

[ContraMundum]

If you are interested in coming to my Messianc Congregation, we would be more than honored with your presence.

You'd also be welcomed in my church too.

Just remember that.

[ContraMundum]

Now anyone who was there will know who I am. So I ask that you keep my personal identity quiet and offline.

I think you can trust this forum to keep things confidential. They're pretty good at that and respect privacy.

[TheRabbi]

If a Messianic came asking quesitons at the synagogues I grew up in, they would have been viewed with the utmost suspicion. Perhaps questions would have bene tolerated at first, but after a while, when the MJs got preachy, they would have been asked to leave.



Aaaah, I see. You're a Jew. Now I understand why you've been so hateful.

[TheRabbi]

That was a joke. Don't get mad.

[ContraMundum]

Aaaah, I see. You're a Jew. Now I understand why you've been so hateful.

That explains your initation of the insults, then?

[ContraMundum]

That was a joke. Don't get mad.

Put smileys in, then I will see it as a joke.

Like this- :)

[TheRabbi]

Sorry How do I do smileys? I use the internet for news mainly. The forum thing is very new for me.

[ContraMundum]

Oh...well, you have to "go advanced" in your replies and there will be a setlist on the side of your post reply text box...just click on them to insert them.

Also, a series of keys can be used to generate them.

Such as : + ) will equal :)

There's more too, but I don't really know them.

[MessianicRabbi]

MessianicRabbi, welcome to the forum. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Are you with UMJC or MJAA? What is your congration? Where did you do your schooling? Are we all driving you nuts?

If the answer is no, we will try harder! :D

Shalom
Thanks for the welcome. I am not associated with either of the fine groups you have mentioned. I am lightly associated with a group or two, but I don't weigh heavily on them.

I have had a congregation, twice in fact. Both of them Adonai lead my wife and I to start. Currently, I am without a congregation due to a move WAY out of that area. Jobs; you have to go were you can make a living. I do miss it, but I keep myself busy with various teaching appointments.

Thanks again for the warm welcome.

[MessianicRabbi]

I had them banned from the premises of the synagogue. This was wrong, I was wrong.
TheRabbi,
Thank you for saying this. I am not accustom to such banning from synagogues or temples were I was, but I can understand that some would have objection to it.

In fact, we would have folks come over from the Jewish congregation to our's for Pesach. A great time was had by all.

[GerTzedek]

Truth be told, CM, TR has explained it just like my Protestant upbringing. In the churches I grew up, Satan had free reign to inflict any and all things that he wanted to. It took fervant prayer and direct interaction of G-d to stop him.
I was raised protestant, and I was not taught this. I was taught that Satan had no power over me that I didn't voluntarily give him. He could only tempt and accuse and lie. I might TELL you he could hurt you, but it would be a lie, unless you GAVE him that power.

Quite honestly, Satan is irrelevant to me. I mean, I beleive that Satan exists. But if Satan didn't exist, nothing would really be different. It's the evil in human hearts that causes us to sin -- our animal instincts, or what we call original sin. Not "satan made me do it." I"m sick and tired of people blaming everything on Satan.

[GerTzedek]

If you are interested in coming to my Messianc Congregation, we would be more than honored with your presence.
Why did you feel the NEED to make an unkind remark about his church? Sigh.......

[GerTzedek]

I have no problem with that. I was in America for the entire month of July and I did visit one messianic congregation.
Let me know next time you plan to be in the Los Angeles area :D

[GerTzedek]

Rabbi:

I know you want to shy away from the whole Christians being idolaters thing, especially the death penalty question. I can understand your reluctance.

However, while you don't have to answer it here in this forum, please know that you and the Rabbis in Israel, especially the Sanhedron, will have to deal with this sooner or later, and I beleive it will be sooner. I have a hunch that Jewish law will be restored. Now consider: Muslims, who mostly wish your destruction, qualify as B'nei Noach. On the other hand, you label Christians idolaters, many of whom who are willing to fight and die by your side for you, who don't just say they worship the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but are willing to ally themselves with the people of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It seems to me that actions bear out the truth of a person's beliefs.

Please remember what I've said when the time comes.

[TheRabbi]

I also hold that Muslims are idolaters. We cannot rely totally on the Rambam in this instance, since he lived under Muslim rule.

Allah is much more than the Arabic for God. Allah is a specific deity. Namely the tribal deity of Mohammed's father. It is readily admitted by all Muslims that Mohammed's father never accepted Islam and remained a pagan to the day of his death. Yet his name was Abdullah/servant of Allah.

This same deity is represented by the stone that Muhammad left intact when he destroyed the idols of the Cabbah. It is now set into a corner of the Cabbah and is venerated by all who merit to come near it. I believe that the popular consensus is that this tone is a meteorite of some sort. This would put them not only in the category of Avodah Zarah, but also Ovdei Kochavim U'mazelot/worshippers of heavenly bodies. They claim that they don't worship the stone, but when one watches videos of them, it's hard to think otherwise. The stone, the Hajj, the circling of the Cabbah and Allah himself all predate Islam and are old Arab paganism. Muhammed simply narrowed his false gods down to one.

In addition, here in the land of Israel, many leading rabbis have ruled on the matter given the local Muslim's declarared eagerness to sacrifice their children for their god. I felt so bad for the little 12 year old who strapped a bomb belt to himself in exchange for $25 dollars that he gave to his mother. Luckily he was caught and disarmed. But to blow up your kid for $25 bucks is Avodah Zarah if there ever was such a thing.

[TheRabbi]

As far as Christianity goes. I'm told that the Raavad has a totally different opinion than the Rambam. I'll find out where he gives his opinion and get back to you.

[GerTzedek]

As far as Christianity goes. I'm told that the Raavad has a totally different opinion than the Rambam. I'll find out where he gives his opinion and get back to you.
Forgive me, I'm very new at this: if I sound woefully uneducated and stupid, it's because I am. Which Raavad?

Let me share a story with you that touched my heart. My friend RebbeCohen and I often go into different forums and have bets to see which of us can last the longest. On this occasion we were in a traditional Catholic forum. (He won, btw, LOL, outlasting me by over a month.) While in that forum, one of the older gentleman shared the following story:

He had been in the navy during the six day war, and was stationed in a submarine. They receive a confused message, but it appeared it was an order to attack Israel. While the communications officers attempted to verify the command, the other men discussed it amongst themselves. They all agreed: they were going to refuse this order. Well, it turned out that the "order" was a miscommunication -- there was no command to attack Israel. However, it was something he would always remember, how every man on that submarine had prefered court martial than to attack Israel.

Of course, on the internet, you never know when someone is telling a tall tail. But it doesn't really matter, does it? Maybe it happened. Maybe it didn't. It still expresses the state of his heart.

[TheRabbi]

Boy oh boy did I open a can of worms with this one. I thought it was open and shut but it's really not. Medieval Christianity was much more akin to avodah Zarah than it is today. In other words, new forms of Christianity have emerged since the times of the Rishonim and we can't apply their ruling's to all Christians. The issue is quite complex and one that I really never delved too deeply into, givent he Rambam's clear cut opinion.

The issues of statues, candles, rosaries, mentioning the name of Jesus but truly believing that you are talking about the God of Israel are all separate issues and have different status in regards to idolatry.

In talking to a rabbi who is quite expert on the subject just now, I was told that depending on the brand of Christianity you would have a different status.

Here goes, and please don't get mad at me for posting this.

According to what I just heard, Evangelicals and pretty much all Protestants would not be considered idolaters.

Catholics are a rather grey area. There is a wide range of variance even within Catholicism and they probaly don't fit the bill of total idolatry.

Christians like the Greek Orthodox however, would be considered true idolaters in every sense of the word.

Again, you may disagree with these statements, but I was asked to give the opinion of most poskim, not to prove whether they were right or wrong. Please understand. I really have no authority to answer questions like this for other Jews. It's just not my area. I have studied Christianity, it's history and it's texts for many years, purely for historical value and personal interest. I am not, however, expert in the halachos involving Christianity. I know the Rambams on the subject, but to really give an answer to a complex question like this, you have to learn the guts out of it. You have to be able to bring every major Rishon and all of the Gemaras. In this paricular case, the changing (and apparently improved) nature of Christianity has apparently necessitated throwing out what many of the Rishonim ruled on the matter. Not an easy one for sure.

[TheRabbi]

The Raavad is one of the Rishonim, like Rashi, Rambam, etc.

[visionary]

Why did you feel the NEED to make an unkind remark about his church? Sigh.......I have come this far out of that... that I have no desire to return to it.

[visionary]

Boy oh boy did I open a can of worms with this one. I thought it was open and shut but it's really not. Medieval Christianity was much more akin to avodah Zarah than it is today. In other words, new forms of Christianity have emerged since the times of the Rishonim and we can't apply their ruling's to all Christians. The issue is quite complex and one that I really never delved too deeply into, givent he Rambam's clear cut opinion.

The issues of statues, candles, rosaries, mentioning the name of Jesus but truly believing that you are talking about the God of Israel are all separate issues and have different status in regards to idolatry.

In talking to a rabbi who is quite expert on the subject just now, I was told that depending on the brand of Christianity you would have a different status.

Here goes, and please don't get mad at me for posting this.

According to what I just heard, Evangelicals and pretty much all Protestants would not be considered idolaters.

Catholics are a rather grey area. There is a wide range of variance even within Catholicism and they probaly don't fit the bill of total idolatry.

Christians like the Greek Orthodox however, would be considered true idolaters in every sense of the word.

Again, you may disagree with these statements, but I was asked to give the opinion of most poskim, not to prove whether they were right or wrong. Please understand. I really have no authority to answer questions like this for other Jews. It's just not my area. I have studied Christianity, it's history and it's texts for many years, purely for historical value and personal interest. I am not, however, expert in the halachos involving Christianity. I know the Rambams on the subject, but to really give an answer to a complex question like this, you have to learn the guts out of it. You have to be able to bring every major Rishon and all of the Gemaras. In this paricular case, the changing (and apparently improved) nature of Christianity has apparently necessitated throwing out what many of the Rishonim ruled on the matter. Not an easy one for sure.So where does Messianic fit in all this?

[Lotuspetal_uk]

So as not to derail this thread...

Rabbi,

Can I have your permission to create an "Ask the Rabbi" thread in order for readers to post theology related questions relating to the Torah etc..?

I have a question relating to Sh'mot (Exodus) which does not relate to the topic at hand and could do with your help.

Shalom and thanks
LP

[ChavaK]

I mean that Messianics are cursed and reviled in the Jewish community.

I have never see anyone "curse or revile" them...we
mostly don't pay any attention to them because
we realize the vast majority are not Jews and there
for of no importance to the Jewish community. The
only time the issue of messianics is brought up is
if they are causing problems in the Jewish community-
such as those who proclaim themselves as Jews when
they are not, and try to attend Jewish congregations
without advising the shul of their status.

When I lived in America (I was not a hassid then. I was conservative), I had them banned from the premises of the synagogue. This was wrong, I was wrong.
I don't know if it was right or wrong, it is up to each
congregation to decide...I know we would never ban
anyone from our shul unless they were causing
problems. We have a couple of Noahides who regularly
attend, and for awhile there were a couple of
gentile messianics who attended- but who quit coming after
it was determined they were messianic....not because
they were ill-treated but because they were quit
beiing counted in the minyon and being called for
aliyot...

[Talmidah]

for awhile there were a couple of
gentile messianics who attended- but who quit coming after
it was determined they were messianic....not because
they were ill-treated but because they were quit
beiing counted in the minyon and being called for
aliyot...They allowed themselves to be counted and called up? :sigh: How sad that some people want to go around deceiving others as to who they are.

[ChavaK]

They allowed themselves to be counted and called up? :sigh: How sad that some people want to go around deceiving others as to who they are.

Yep....the funny thing was, I was in Israel for six
weeks and apparantly this guy had started attending
our shul during that time. When I walked in after
getting back, I saw them calling him for an aliyah,
and he gave them a Hebrew name!! I flagged down
the gabbai, and gave him the scoop....unfortunately
no one else knew who this guy was. Last I heard
he tried the Sephardi shul, and was "outed"...now
he is at the Conservative shul, which is so liberal
they may not even care, if they do know who
he is...

[Steve Petersen]

They allowed themselves to be counted and called up? :sigh: How sad that some people want to go around deceiving others as to who they are.
I was talking to a friend who attended Chabad meetings for a while. Once when it was time for prayer they were short one person for a minyan. There was a Gentile there and they decided to count him for their minyan knowing he was not Jewish.

[GerTzedek]

So as not to derail this thread...

Rabbi,

Can I have your permission to create an "Ask the Rabbi" thread in order for readers to post theology related questions relating to the Torah etc..?

I have a question relating to Sh'mot (Exodus) which does not relate to the topic at hand and could do with your help.

Shalom and thanks
LP
I think its a good idea. I think it is best for the Orthodox Messianic Fellowship area.

[GerTzedek]

I have come this far out of that... that I have no desire to return to it. .
I "came out" of the protestant church. But I don't make unkind remarks about that, and in fact kind of go out of my way to look for ways to be positive, lest my bias show. It is ugly for you to make these remarks, especially as a moderator. Can't you control yourself? It's not right for you to push your agenda. We've been through this. Your past is not an excuse for unkindness to CM or a right to dis his church.

[GerTzedek]

Boy oh boy did I open a can of worms with this one.
I'm certainly not offended. I'm wanting clarification, the facts, and you are offering them as best you can, and being honest when you can go no farther. I don't shoot the messenger.

I think everyone's big question is what would be the status of Messianic gentiles and Messianic Jews.

With the Eastern Orthodox, is it basically the veneration of icons that causes the problem?

This is an absolutely fascinating area for me, and I would really like to discuss it with you in detail. There is at least one person here that gets very upset with the discussion of Orthodox/Catholic topics, so perhaps for her sake, it is best to continue via private messaging.

[visionary]

I "came out" of the protestant church. But I don't make unkind remarks about that, and in fact kind of go out of my way to look for ways to be positive, lest my bias show. It is ugly for you to make these remarks, especially as a moderator. Can't you control yourself? It's not right for you to push your agenda. We've been through this. Your past is not an excuse for unkindness to CM or a right to dis his church.Re-actionary is not right. You are right on that point.

As you see certain areas of belief that need to be protected against, just as Contra does also, and all the other posters, it was not indented by myself or any time others do it to be intended as ugly, just important. You may not see the importance of the inroads of gentile **ology in Judaic forum area in the same places as I do, but they are just as important to me as they are to you.

Ugly is when name calling starts, when intelligence is questioned, when presentation is poo pooed, and when self-righteousness is thrown about like it has some weight around here.

He believes.. You agree someone can come here and accuse you of being a heretic? ...and yet when others defend your religion you back your accuser?

Weird.Which I found offensive... I was not and have not been accused of this but by Contra in all the time I have been on this forum.

Secondly... the quote that you question me on.... Originally Posted by visionary
I wouldn't go to his church, being anglican and all, but now if you are interested in coming to my Messianc Congregation, we would be more than honored with your presence. will be edited.

[visionary]

Vis...

Dualism is a word that is used in many theological contexts, but in the context of divinity, which is what this guy is alluding to, it is a heresy of the highest order- refuted by the Jews and the Church which follows their revelation. Clearly, this guy's interpretation of the NT is incorrect. It's a standard tactic of the anti-missionaries to use the NT to make accusations about it the Church (a custodian of the whole of scripture and certainly the receiver of the New Testament) has never made or recieved.Yes, the Judaic stance is that the Messiah can not be the Son of God, and therefore blaspheming... it was a position held in Yeshua's day and the excuse. That is a historical position, one in which we need to understand better in order to help them accept Yeshua as the Son of God. TheRabbi has been very clear and straight forward without malice or any vendictiveness or ill wishes towards any of us who believe in the Messiah as the Great "I am"..

To be accepted back into the fold of Judaic family faith believing in the Messiah Yeshua as the Son of God, the Holy One of Israel, the Redeemer, and the Lamb of God fortold in the rehearsals for both the spring and fall feasts will be a miracle. But it all starts somewhere.

[GerTzedek]

I'm going to throw in my less than two cents worth. I am not an expert in Aramaic or Koine or Hebrew (which I'm struggling with more than anything I've ever struggled with in my life.) But I'm familiar with various theologies.

Dualism is the concept that there are two equal forces: good and evil. There are other religions that are inately Dualistic, i.e. Zoroastrianism. There have been those within Christianity which have tended to interpret Christian teachings in a dualistic sense.

However, when the rubber meets the road, Satan is a created being. There is no possible way a created being can ever be the equal of the Creator. All Christians with half a brain and an ounce of Bible education know this. Thus Christianity is not dualism, despite some similarities.

In fact, I remember quite well being a sophmore in High School, and my World History teacher stating that Christianity was dualism... EVERY Christian in the class, Catholic and Protestant, objected. We all gave the same reasons I stated above, explaining that Satan was a fallen angel, infinitely below G-d, that he could do nothing except what G-d ultimately allowed.

CS Lewis advances that "evil" is not even an essense in and of itself, but merely a corruption of good -- take a virtue, and do it the wrong way, at the wrong time, for the wrong reason, with the wrong person, to the wrong degree, etc... and THAT is when it becomes an vice. It is not wrong to have sex, it is wrong to have sex outside of marriage. It is not wrong to kill, it is wrong to murder. It is not wrong to drink wine, but it is wrong to become drunk. It is not wrong to eat fruit, but it was wrong to eat THAT fruit.

I kind of think of Satan the way I think of Gollum in The Lord of the Rings (Rabbi have you read this book?). He is corrupt, but he has a divine destiny -- a necessary role to play. HaShem allows his existence for a reason. I suppose that's very unconventional. Apart from that, to be real honest, I don't think about Satan that much. It's more important to keep my eyes on G-d, seeking the grace to act right.

[GerTzedek]

bump

[visionary]

I agree, it is an unfair battle,... reminds me of the bantom rooster,... can be vicious... until its neck is rung.

[ContraMundum]

I have come this far out of that... that I have no desire to return to it. .

An astounding statement that is utterly absurd.

Care to take this over to STR? Let's see what those who have taken proper time to make such judgments think, eh? :D

[ContraMundum]

Yes, the Judaic stance is that the Messiah can not be the Son of God, and therefore blaspheming... it was a position held in Yeshua's day and the excuse. That is a historical position, one in which we need to understand better in order to help them accept Yeshua as the Son of God. TheRabbi has been very clear and straight forward without malice or any vendictiveness or ill wishes towards any of us who believe in the Messiah as the Great "I am"..

To be accepted back into the fold of Judaic family faith believing in the Messiah Yeshua as the Son of God, the Holy One of Israel, the Redeemer, and the Lamb of God fortold in the rehearsals for both the spring and fall feasts will be a miracle. But it all starts somewhere.


Wow.....at first I thought "this is all meaningless visionary. It has no bearing on the accusation at all." But then I realised how unspiritual I am, and that you are so right. Man oh man, we are all talking about the wrong thing. I should have seen it.

[ContraMundum]

I'm going to throw in my less than two cents worth. I am not an expert in Aramaic or Koine or Hebrew (which I'm struggling with more than anything I've ever struggled with in my life.) But I'm familiar with various theologies.

Dualism is the concept that there are two equal forces: good and evil. There are other religions that are inately Dualistic, i.e. Zoroastrianism. There have been those within Christianity which have tended to interpret Christian teachings in a dualistic sense.

However, when the rubber meets the road, Satan is a created being. There is no possible way a created being can ever be the equal of the Creator. All Christians with half a brain and an ounce of Bible education know this. Thus Christianity is not dualism, despite some similarities.

In fact, I remember quite well being a sophmore in High School, and my World History teacher stating that Christianity was dualism... EVERY Christian in the class, Catholic and Protestant, objected. We all gave the same reasons I stated above, explaining that Satan was a fallen angel, infinitely below G-d, that he could do nothing except what G-d ultimately allowed.

CS Lewis advances that "evil" is not even an essense in and of itself, but merely a corruption of good -- take a virtue, and do it the wrong way, at the wrong time, for the wrong reason, with the wrong person, to the wrong degree, etc... and THAT is when it becomes an vice. It is not wrong to have sex, it is wrong to have sex outside of marriage. It is not wrong to kill, it is wrong to murder. It is not wrong to drink wine, but it is wrong to become drunk. It is not wrong to eat fruit, but it was wrong to eat THAT fruit.

I kind of think of Satan the way I think of Gollum in The Lord of the Rings (Rabbi have you read this book?). He is corrupt, but he has a divine destiny -- a necessary role to play. HaShem allows his existence for a reason. I suppose that's very unconventional. Apart from that, to be real honest, I don't think about Satan that much. It's more important to keep my eyes on G-d, seeking the grace to act right.


You are quite right, but dualism takes other forms too.

Properly taught, the Christian idea of the Devil is not that he has any real power at all. He is a failed rebel, whose place is under the feet of the believers. He is bound, as a dog on a leash, under the lordship of HaShem. He is the accuser, the tempter and the enemy, but he is powerless without God's permission.

Is this dualism? I think not. It might be interesting to note that the accusation that Christianity is dualist backfires on the Jewish argument quite sternly. This is another kind of dualism. A very quick brush up on the modern day Jewish theology of anthropology (the doctrine of man) would soon reveal a very dualistic doctrine, with a bit of gnosticism thrown in to boot. This is easily demonstrated, and the Rabbi knows exactly what I'm alluding to.

To my mind, the Zoroastrian influence is found in modern day Judaism moreso than in the classical Christian orthodoxy of the ancient church.

[Bananna]

dualism... Yin Yang, chinese mysticism...

Yeshua is not a second God. Nor is he the Father. Nor are we the Father though we be one with the Father and the Son.

Types of Dualism

The Father and the Son are one

The Father and the Spirit are one

The Father and the Mother nature of a God who is essencially sexless.

The whole explination of the Christian Godhead is hard enough for the learned to grasp, I hardly expect a Jew to understand what we do not.

I find we end up saying what God is not more often that we can explain what God is. Especially from a scriputural standpoint.

Christians by nature are not Dualists of any kind. Trinitarian or Unitarian

Bananna

[GerTzedek]

Yeshua is not a second God. Nor is he the Father. Nor are we the Father though we be one with the Father and the Son.

Types of Dualism

The Father and the Son are one

The Father and the Spirit are one

The Father and the Mother nature of a God who is essencially sexless.Please explain how these ideas are dualism. What is the definition of dualism?

[ContraMundum]

dualism... Yin Yang, chinese mysticism...

Yeshua is not a second God. Nor is he the Father. Nor are we the Father though we be one with the Father and the Son.

Types of Dualism

The Father and the Son are one

The Father and the Spirit are one

The Father and the Mother nature of a God who is essencially sexless.

The whole explination of the Christian Godhead is hard enough for the learned to grasp, I hardly expect a Jew to understand what we do not.

I find we end up saying what God is not more often that we can explain what God is. Especially from a scriputural standpoint.

Christians by nature are not Dualists of any kind. Trinitarian or Unitarian

Bananna

I'm not sure this has anything to do with dualism.

[TheRabbi]

I think many of you, with the exception of ContraMundum have totally misunderstood what I mean by dualism. I am in no way referring to the trinity. I am referring to the idea that there are two warring powers in the cosmos

1. A benevolent all powerful creator, who interacts with his creation through an intermediary aspect of himself. Indeed all of creation was accomplished through this intermediary.

2. A destructive entity destined to be vanquished by the good creator god in a final battle at the end of time.

I am positing that many (not all) Christians subscribe to a view of God and the Devil that is very similar to what I have outlined above. This is one of the classic forms of dualism.

The Jewish view is that both good and evil emanate from God himself. There is no other power in the universe with which he must vie for the hearts and souls of mankind. God does not engage in thousands of years worth of battle against a created power. The battle is between man and himself.

I wanted to clarify my position with this post. But at the same time I'd really like to drop the issue, since it's against the forum rules to disparage Christianity and this post is probably a violation of that policy.

Again, I'm not here to engage in this kind of discourse. In the future, I will repectfully decline to discuss theological contentions between Judaism and Christianity. I hope everyone understands.

ContraMundum, maybe you could find a nice way of wrapping this issue up. I'd be happy for you to have the last word on the matter as I'm sure you'll be fair.

I'd also like to take the time to publically apologize to you for the arrogant manner in which I snapped back at you in our initial exchanges.

[GerTzedek]

How can you apologize for starting one of the most interesting discussions here? Do you think I'd rather talk about Two House theology? Ick! There is no question there.

This is actually a good complex issue that there is variation on. I've been raised Christian all my life, but from what you've described, I'd say I fit firmly in what YOU have described as the Jewish camp. It was only a few days ago I think that I said that I thought Satan was more or less irrelevant, that there was quite enough evil in the hearts of men.

Now, I must have learned that somewhere. I'll have to give my mom a call and run this by her, and my brothers too.

[Lotuspetal_uk]

I think its a good idea. I think it is best for the Orthodox Messianic Fellowship area.
:doh: Now why didn't I think of there....

Thank you sis!

Good topic BTW! :hug:'s

[Bananna]

I think many of you, with the exception of ContraMundum have totally misunderstood what I mean by dualism. I am in no way referring to the trinity. I am referring to the idea that there are two warring powers in the cosmos

1. A benevolent all powerful creator, who interacts with his creation through an intermediary aspect of himself. Indeed all of creation was accomplished through this intermediary.

2. A destructive entity destined to be vanquished by the good creator god in a final battle at the end of time.

I am positing that many (not all) Christians subscribe to a view of God and the Devil that is very similar to what I have outlined above. This is one of the classic forms of dualism.

The Jewish view is that both good and evil emanate from God himself. There is no other power in the universe with which he must vie for the hearts and souls of mankind. God does not engage in thousands of years worth of battle against a created power. The battle is between man and himself.

I wanted to clarify my position with this post. But at the same time I'd really like to drop the issue, since it's against the forum rules to disparage Christianity and this post is probably a violation of that policy.

Again, I'm not here to engage in this kind of discourse. In the future, I will repectfully decline to discuss theological contentions between Judaism and Christianity. I hope everyone understands.

ContraMundum, maybe you could find a nice way of wrapping this issue up. I'd be happy for you to have the last word on the matter as I'm sure you'll be fair.

I'd also like to take the time to publically apologize to you for the arrogant manner in which I snapped back at you in our initial exchanges.

Actually that would be Holly Wood version, not Christian Version. It does run along the lines of some Catholic myths, but many who claim to be Christian or claim to be speaking of Christian teaching are just plain misinforming you of the basic teachings.

That type of dualism is only believed by a few of my Jewish aquaintences. At least they claim to be Jewish.. who really knows.

bananna

[TheRabbi]

That type of dualism is only believed by a few of my Jewish aquaintences. At least they claim to be Jewish.. who really knows.
What dualism is believed by Jews?

[ChazakEmunah]

if you choose to speak against the beliefs of the Church, then get them right first.
Okay, so now the Anglican faith is the final authority for the Church? Since when did this happen? If anything, I would say that the Eastern Orthodox have more in their favor for being "The" Church authority.


This, coming from someone who reads the Torah?

I expected better.
As a person who was raised as an Orthodox Jew, you know full well that bowing to any statue or venerating a "saint" is avodah zerah. He is fully justified in his comments.


You fail to understand the nature of the NT is you think that dualism is what is being taught. Don't worry, you're not to blame for that.
Dualism, Gnosticism.... Let's just call it what it is shall we? Paul teaches nothing less than Greek Hellenism.


The second you post anti-Christian stuff on a predominantly Christian website, you are engaging in the same tactic as the anti-missionaries. That is your motive- to attack Christianity and Christians, whether you realise it or not. What's worse is that you're talking like an authority who has the authority to speak on the doctrines of Christianity, when you're not.
Ahh... So now I understand what constitutes an "anti-missionary" in your mind. If that is what you deem to be an anti-missionary, you should know that there are quite a few Messianics who are anti-C*hristian (I know a couple of them on this forum).

And FTR, "anti-missionaries" as they've been so labeled, are more properly termed "counter-missionaries" as their primary goal is to counter the effects of C*hristian evangelization among Jews and not necessarily to be anti-C*hristian.


Sorry, but before you get all cocky about your pontifications regarding Christian theology, understand that I'm "the last person you want to get into this kind of exchange with". I'm no casual observer. I'm a graduate of a fine seminary and have studied the texts under discipline, not just casually or with only a search engine.

With all the effort that you've put into an Anglican minister, I have to ask... Why did you leave Judaism? What made you turn away and convert to C*hristianity? {Yes, this is a sincere question.}

[ChazakEmunah]

You and me both....:)
Me three!! :clap:

[ChazakEmunah]

Further evidence that James was more Judaic than Paul or John. However, this is not indicative of the presentation throughout the whole of the Christian testament.
I think the reason for this is that Paul wrote much of the NT and therefore nominative C*hristianity reflects his views.

[ContraMundum]

Okay, so now the Anglican faith is the final authority for the Church? Since when did this happen? If anything, I would say that the Eastern Orthodox have more in their favor for being "The" Church authority.

Great point. Glad you brought that up.

I have never pretended that the Anglican Church is the final authority on anything. It isn't. My position has always been that Christian orthodoxy is best defined by ancient ecumenical consensus. I have always only stood up for that position, and yes, the Eastern Orthodox are in agreement with us on that.

As a person who was raised as an Orthodox Jew, you know full well that bowing to any statue or venerating a "saint" is avodah zerah. He is fully justified in his comments.

True, true. Yet, I've always been puzzled as to why HaShem ordered statues to be placed on the Ark, as well as the "Brazen Serpent" which, when gazed upon (an act of faith greater than the veneration of icons!) healed those who were wounded. Perhaps the definition of avodah zarah needs some tweaking. Not my problem.

Dualism, Gnosticism.... Let's just call it what it is shall we? Paul teaches nothing less than Greek Hellenism.

Please be aware that modern day Judaism has plenty of Hellenism in it- just go read Guide for the Perplexed and see Aristotle all over the place. Also, most scholars have rejected the "Paul was a Hellenist" argument- including leading Jewish ones, long ago. Using Hellenistic discourse to reach Greeks is not the same as teaching Hellenism as doctrine.

With all the effort that you've put into an Anglican minister, I have to ask... Why did you leave Judaism? What made you turn away and convert to C*hristianity? {Yes, this is a sincere question.}

I have been asked that many times here, and I have never answered, nor will I ever answer. That is a private matter. Those who know me here know the answer, because I trust them and have the time for them. The rest of you have to wait for the book.

[ContraMundum]

I am positing that many (not all) Christians subscribe to a view of God and the Devil that is very similar to what I have outlined above. This is one of the classic forms of dualism.

Yes, true. Many Christians- mostly pentecostals and a few evangelicals- think of the Devil in that way.

The Jewish view is that both good and evil emanate from God himself. There is no other power in the universe with which he must vie for the hearts and souls of mankind......

This is the same view in orthodox Christianity. There are prophetic statements about the Devil that some people interpret literally, but the ancient Church held to the same view established by the parent body, the people of Israel.

ContraMundum, maybe you could find a nice way of wrapping this issue up. I'd be happy for you to have the last word on the matter as I'm sure you'll be fair.

My summary: in the end, ancient Christianity is hardly different in its world view and diabology than the Jews of that time. It's an interesting study.

I'd challenge every Christian here to re-think their position on Satan and his "power" in the world and reject modern superstitions and pentecostalist ideas about how the world works.

I'd also like to take the time to publically apologize to you for the arrogant manner in which I snapped back at you in our initial exchanges.

Me too. I'm overly passionate sometimes. Apology accepted and offered.

[TheRabbi]

Please be aware that modern day Judaism has plenty of Hellenism in it- just go read Guide for the Perplexed and see Aristotle all over the place.

Almost all Hassidim and a great many other Ashkenazim, will not even allow The Guide for The Perplexed in their homes. The Vilna Gaon famously stated about the Rambam, "The cursed Philosophy influenced him."

[GerTzedek]

It does run along the lines of some Catholic myths,

[scooby doo voice] huh?

[visionary]

Dualism is a word that is used in many theological contexts, but in the context of divinity, which is what this guy is alluding to, it is a heresy of the highest order- on that point I post... Yes, the Judaic stance is that the Messiah can not be the Son of God, and therefore blaspheming... it was a position held in Yeshua's day and the excuse. That is a historical position, one in which we need to understand better in order to help them accept Yeshua as the Son of God. TheRabbi has been very clear and straight forward without malice or any vendictiveness or ill wishes towards any of us who believe in the Messiah as the Great "I am"..

To be accepted back into the fold of Judaic family faith believing in the Messiah Yeshua as the Son of God, the Holy One of Israel, the Redeemer, and the Lamb of God fortold in the rehearsals for both the spring and fall feasts will be a miracle. But it all starts somewhere.

[ContraMundum]

Almost all Hassidim and a great many other Ashkenazim, will not even allow The Guide for The Perplexed in their homes. The Vilna Gaon famously stated about the Rambam, "The cursed Philosophy influenced him."


Lots of factions within Modern day Judaism, I know.

Hasidim are influenced by other foreign philosophies and cultures differently- but let's not go into that. This isn't the place to criticise them.

[ContraMundum]

I hope my football team wins the flag.

[Steve Petersen]

Lots of factions within Modern day Judaism, I know.

Hasidim are influenced by other foreign philosophies and cultures differently- but let's not go into that. This isn't the place to criticise them.
Namely gnosticism. The concept of sefirot are adaptations of gnostic ideas.

[visionary]

Let me highlight the connection...I still have no idea why you said what you did and how you think it relates to the topic at hand. Why would I edit that? It makes no sense to the topic. This isn't "dis'sin" you, it's just that I can't see the co-relation, nor could others here, BTW.

...and must you use such crude metaphors?By the way the metaphor is not crude, just a lingo..
Originally Posted by ContraMundum
Dualism is a word that is used in many theological contexts, but in the context of divinity, which is what this guy is alluding to, it is a heresy of the highest order-

on that point I post...
Originally Posted by visionary
Yes, the Judaic stance is that the Messiah can not be the Son of God, and therefore blaspheming... it was a position held in Yeshua's day and the excuse. That is a historical position, one in which we need to understand better in order to help them accept Yeshua as the Son of God. TheRabbi has been very clear and straight forward without malice or any vendictiveness or ill wishes towards any of us who believe in the Messiah as the Great "I am"..

To be accepted back into the fold of Judaic family faith believing in the Messiah Yeshua as the Son of God, the Holy One of Israel, the Redeemer, and the Lamb of God fortold in the rehearsals for both the spring and fall feasts will be a miracle. But it all starts somewhere. and you dis me with

This is all meaningless visionary. It has no bearing on the accusation at all.

[ContraMundum]

Namely gnosticism. The concept of sefirot are adaptations of gnostic ideas.

...and where does the doctrine of reincarnation (esp. humans into animals, vegetables, minerals) really come from? ;)

...but let's not go there.

[ContraMundum]

Let me highlight the connection...By the way the metaphor is not crude, just a lingo..

Crude to me.

on that point I post...
and you dis me with

Umm...yeah...the Divinity of Christ was not something we were speaking of. The Rabbi made that clear. The dualism we were speaking of had to do with God and the Devil.

[visionary]

Crude to me.



Umm...yeah...the Divinity of Christ was not something we were speaking of. The Rabbi made that clear. The dualism we were speaking of had to do with God and the Devil.That does not mean you can go around and state that my posts are meaningless... that is insulting. Please edit post.

[ContraMundum]

Done vis.

Care to edit the lies about the C of E now?

[visionary]

I still have no idea why you said what you did and how you think it relates to the topic at hand. Why would I edit that? It makes no sense to the topic. This isn't "dis'sin" you, it's just that I can't see the co-relation, nor could others here, BTW.

...and must you use such crude metaphors?Now that you do see, you might want to edit this also so that it makes sense after all the editing we both have done to the thread.

[ContraMundum]

Done.

[GerTzedek]

...and where does the doctrine of reincarnation (esp. humans into animals, vegetables, minerals) really come from? ;)

...but let's not go there.
The idea of souls reincarnating is completely different the way it developed in Judaism from the way it developed in India. In India it is attached to Karma. In Judaism it has nothing to do with karma. Nothing. During the life of Yeshua, people were constantly asking of John the Baptist or of Yeshua, are you Moses? are you Elias? It seems like its the good guys coming back!

In Judaism, you almost never ever hear about humans coming back as anything other than humans. I've only ever heard one story -- a midrash about a dog running in and starting to read Torah -- where a Jew comes back as an animal. I chalk that up to a folk tale showing common folk being less educated.

It should be said that not all Jews believe in reincarnation. However, the standard Orthodox siddur I use at home, the Artscroll, uses the phrase "whether in this transmigration or another"--a reference to a soul being on earth on more than one occasion.

[ChazakEmunah]

...and where does the doctrine of reincarnation (esp. humans into animals, vegetables, minerals) really come from? ;)

...but let's not go there.
Well let's see.... Knowledge of Kabbalah, and therefore re-incarnation, was first given to Adam in Gan Edan. So it is improper to for anyone to study this belief outside of Judaism. And as far as I know, I've never heard of a human n'shoma being reincarnated into a non-human body. I will stop here, as I do not feel that I am qualified to teach Kabbalah. I personally find it to be a fascinating topic.

[ChazakEmunah]

The idea of souls reincarnating is completely different the way it developed in Judaism from the way it developed in India. In India it is attached to Karma. In Judaism it has nothing to do with karma. Nothing. During the life of Yeshua, people were constantly asking of John the Baptist or of Yeshua, are you Moses? are you Elias? It seems like its the good guys coming back!

In Judaism, you almost never ever hear about humans coming back as anything other than humans. I've only ever heard one story -- a midrash about a dog running in and starting to read Torah -- where a Jew comes back as an animal. I chalk that up to a folk tale showing common folk being less educated.

It should be said that not all Jews believe in reincarnation. However, the standard Orthodox siddur I use at home, the Artscroll, uses the phrase "whether in this transmigration or another"--a reference to a soul being on earth on more than one occasion.
Right. That's because Judaism has been given the proper tools with which to interpret it. Although Hinduism also carried this tradition from Adam via Noach, they developed it without the benefit of proper interpretation.

[Steve Petersen]

Well let's see.... Knowledge of Kabbalah, and therefore re-incarnation, was first given to Adam in Gan Edan. So it is improper to for anyone to study this belief outside of Judaism. And as far as I know, I've never heard of a human n'shoma being reincarnated into a non-human body. I will stop here, as I do not feel that I am qualified to teach Kabbalah. I personally find it to be a fascinating topic.
These are things you believe because it is the traditional answer. Where is the hard evidence that these things go back to Adam, or are any earlier than the appearance of gnosticism on the world scene?

For those who are interested, I would recommend Cultures of the Jews, a series of essays edited by David Bialik. This book shows the biliateral interaction and influence of the Jewish people and other cultures.

[stone]

Reading the last few posts reminded me of when Y-shua cast out Legion, but 1st asked for his name. -interesting-

[chunkofcoal]

Well let's see.... Knowledge of Kabbalah, and therefore re-incarnation, was first given to Adam in Gan Edan. So it is improper to for anyone to study this belief outside of Judaism.

Why is that? Your statement makes it sound like only the Jews descended from Adam. :confused:

[muffler dragon]

Why is that? Your statement makes it sound like only the Jews descended from Adam. :confused:

His statement makes no such "sound". He's talking about the doctrine of reincarnation in Kabbalah, and how it's best studied. The migration of Oral Torah from Adam on is no secret.

[ContraMundum]

Well let's see.... Knowledge of Kabbalah, and therefore re-incarnation, was first given to Adam in Gan Edan.

Q. Is that a statement of faith or fact?

A. Faith.

You *choose* to believe that medieval dogma. Not many Jews do, thank goodness.

So it is improper to for anyone to study this belief outside of Judaism. And as far as I know, I've never heard of a human n'shoma being reincarnated into a non-human body. I will stop here, as I do not feel that I am qualified to teach Kabbalah. I personally find it to be a fascinating topic.

Kabbalah (as stated in the Zohar) states that humans can reincarnate into animals. No one disputes that.

I doubt very much this doctrine originated among the Jews. It appears in the religion very late, and is clearly found far earlier in Eastern religions- this is easily proven. Were the Kaballists influenced by eastern religions when they were in captivity or in diaspora? I think so.