Was this forum formerly Messianic Judaism?

[GerTzedek]

Someone said something odd, so forgive me for asking. Did this forum undergo a name change? Did it used to be called Messianic Judaism and was CHANGED to Messianic? If so, what could possibly have been the reasons?

[Talmidah]

Yes, it was changed (http://foru.ms/t5811810).

[GerTzedek]

Whyyyyy?

[Talmidah]

Whyyyyy?Didja go to the link (http://foru.ms/t5811810) in my last post? It was voted on.

[stone]

It was a majority vote to change it by the regular members of the forum.

[GerTzedek]

It was a majority vote to change it by the regular members of the forum.
I am disgusted. How cowardly.

You can name the forum "messianic," but what this is, is Messianic Judaism, and I refuse to call it anything but. I'm sorry if people don't like that term. While our Jewish friends have a right to complain about the inclusion of the term "Judaism," it s NOT Hebrew Christianity despite their insistence.

This was a HUGE mistake. HUGE. I just can't believe you all did this.

[muffler dragon]

I am disgusted. How cowardly.

Cowardly? How is changing the name of a forum cowardly? It was a democratic vote.

You can name the forum "messianic," but what this is, is Messianic Judaism, and I refuse to call it anything but. I'm sorry if people don't like that term. While our Jewish friends have a right to complain about the inclusion of the term "Judaism," it s NOT Hebrew Christianity despite their insistence.

This was a HUGE mistake. HUGE. I just can't believe you all did this.

Alrighty. If it's not Hebrew Christianity; then, perchance, you would like to elucidate some considerations for me:

1) What part of the Nicene Creed do you disagree with?
2) Do you believe in personal vicarious atonement?
3) Do you believe that the "New" Covenant actually involves all of humanity?

I'll start with three to keep it short and simple.

[Wags]

So nice of you to call us all "cowards" when you don't have clue what went on here before you joined a month ago.

[stone]

The forum was being attacked nearly daily since January, after the name change the attacks have become minimal.

I look at it as a compromise.

I also chose not to participate in the vote, but either way i voted would have made no difference in the outcome.

[GerTzedek]

Cowardly? How is changing the name of a forum cowardly? It was a democratic vote.



Alrighty. If it's not Hebrew Christianity; then, perchance, you would like to elucidate some considerations for me:

1) What part of the Nicene Creed do you disagree with?
2) Do you believe in personal vicarious atonement?
3) Do you believe that the "New" Covenant actually involves all of humanity?

I'll start with three to keep it short and simple.
While many are trinitarian, we accept those in our congregations as full members who are not Nicene. In fact, we accept those who believe Yeshua is Messiah who do not believe He is G-d. Does that answer your question?

I have been saying ever since the reorganization of foru.ms that this forum does not belong in the Christian section.

[GerTzedek]

The forum was being attacked nearly daily since January, after the name change the attacks have become minimal.

I look at it as a compromise.

I also chose not to participate in the vote, but either way i voted would have made no difference in the outcome.
Yes, it's easier to capitulate and appease.

It's like changing Christmas to Winter Holidays.

[stone]

While many are trinitarian, we accept those in our congregations as full members who are not Nicene. In fact, we accept those who believe Yeshua is Messiah who do not believe He is G-d. Does that answer your question?

I have been saying for a LONG time that this forum does not belong in the Christian section.


Before the new rules of 7-7-7 only christians were allowed to debate in the section. That is the reason for distinguishing between trinitarian and non-trinitarian messianics. Our forum here has always been a bit different in that we allow jews to post in our forum, but before the new rules, non-trinitarians and jews, noachides, and others were limited to asking questions only.

Today, with the new rules, the forum decides how it will be run.

We can always change to name again if we decide to. The forum is at peace with how it is now.

[stone]

Yes, it's easier to capitulate and appease.

It's like changing Christmas to Winter Holidays.

your not going to find many here that observe christmas, its quite the opposite, you will find many here leaveing the pagan observances for the winter holidays. :thumbsup:

[GerTzedek]

your not going to find many here that observe christmas, its quite the opposite, you will find many here leaveing the pagan observances for the winter holidays. :thumbsup:
say what? I'm not advocating Christmas. I'm making an analogy. Sheesh.

[muffler dragon]

While many are trinitarian, we accept those in our congregations as full members who are not Nicene. In fact, we accept those who believe Yeshua is Messiah who do not believe He is G-d. Does that answer your question?

No, it doesn't. I was asking about your personal beliefs.

Therefore, do you:

1) Agree with the tenets of the Nicene Creed?
2) Believe in personal vicarious atonement?
3) Believe that the "New" Covenant actually involves all of humanity?

I have been saying ever since the reorganization of foru.ms that this forum does not belong in the Christian section.

When it becomes evident that you don't hold nominal Christianity's tenets as your own; then I'll agree with you.

[GerTzedek]

My personal beliefs are irrelevant. What if I personally believe that President Bush is fantastic. Would that make Messianic Judaism a Republican organization? What if I believed in sola scriptura. Would that make Messianic Judaism Protestant? It is the beliefs of my COMMUNITY which are significant.

[muffler dragon]

My personal beliefs are irrelevant.

Not if you want to contend that you are NOT a Christian.

What if I personally believe that President Bush is fantastic. Would that make Messianic Judaism a Republican organization?

Red herring.

What if I believed in sola scriptura. Would that make Messianic Judaism Protestant? It is the beliefs of my COMMUNITY which are significant.

Fine, GT. Then answer my questions according to what your "community" would say. Which, as I happen to recall, is a community where you don't discuss your beliefs in Jesus as the Messiah.

[GerTzedek]

Fine, GT. Then answer my questions according to what your "community" would say. Which, as I happen to recall, is a community where you don't discuss your beliefs in Jesus as the Messiah.I already have. You can check above. Because we are not Nicene, not creedal, we cannot be classified as Christian.

The theology may seem similar to you, but it is significantly different from the gentile churches in many ways.

[muffler dragon]

I already have. You can check above. Because we are not Nicene, not creedal, we cannot be classified as Christian.

Only one of my questions has to do with a Creed. You haven't answered the other two. FTR, it's not just a creed that makes someone a Christian.

The theology may seem similar to you, but it is significantly different from the gentile churches in many ways.

So what? That doesn't make your belief set Jewish nor a separate Judaism. Christianity, Islam, Ba'hai and a few other beliefs systems have all taken beliefs from Judaism; yet, that doesn't make them Jewish nor a Judaism branch.

IMO, for you to be a particular branch of Judaism that just happens to believe someone is the Messiah; you (and/or your community) would:

1) have no belief in a god-man.
2) have no belief that said god-man's crucifixion was a vicarious atonement sacrifice for all mankind.

And these two points are just for starters.

[GerTzedek]

One must accept the creeds to be Christian. It may not be the only thing, but it is a necessary thing. The whole POINT of the creeds is to list the basics of what Christians believe.

Its like chocolate in a chocolate cake. Without the chocolate, its not a chocolate cake.

[muffler dragon]

One must accept the creeds to be Christian. It may not be the only thing, but it is a necessary thing. The whole POINT of the creeds is to list the basics of what Christians believe.

Its like chocolate in a chocolate cake. Without the chocolate, its not a chocolate cake.

If you're referencing this forum; then you are correct that the creeds determine who is a Christian. However, in the real world, this is not the case. There are many Christian sects that do not conform to the creeds.

[simchat_torah]

Using the analogy of chocolate cake:
If Christianity is chocolate, then Messianic Judaism is a completely chocolate cake, but with a Jewishly flavored icing.

[christianmomof3]

Using the analogy of chocolate cake:
If Christianity is chocolate, then Messianic Judaism is a completely chocolate cake, but with a Jewishly flavored icing.
:D Or perhaps it is a kosher chocolate cake?

[GerTzedek]

If you're referencing this forum; then you are correct that the creeds determine who is a Christian. However, in the real world, this is not the case. There are many Christian sects that do not conform to the creeds.
Give me a break. They say they are Christian. They are Chrsitian-like. They do many good things, most of them. But they are NOT Christian if they don't accept what is in the creeds.

[muffler dragon]

Give me a break. They say they are Christian. They are Chrsitian-like. They do many good things, most of them. But they are NOT Christian if they don't accept what is in the creeds.

So now we're going to discuss who is a "true Scotsman", huh?

In my twenty-plus years of being a Christian, not ONCE did I have to recite the Apostles' or the Nicene Creed to determine whether I was a Christian or not. And this was at a 4-C Congregational Church in OH. a Pentecoastal Church in Michigan, and two non-Denominational Churches in OH and NC. The definition of a Christian, from my experience, is someone who accepts the deity of Jesus and takes him as the only path to Christian salvation. The rest is just fluff. Thus, there are Christians of many shapes and sizes; and it just so happens that the vast majority of Messianics also fall into this category.

[HadassahSukkot]

yep. I have the same experience as Muffler Dragon on this one.

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck - it's a duck, whether it agrees in whole or part with the creed or has no idea what the creed is.

I can say that as 22 yrs as being a believer brought up in many different congregations and denominations incl. MJ.

[HadassahSukkot]

BTW, before you get upset, I do agree with some of what you have said Ger.

Though it was a majority rule and I can see the benefits of the name change. There was a lot of tension and persecution before. It's slacked off and people seem to be interested again.

[visionary]

Give me a break. They say they are Christian. They are Chrsitian-like. They do many good things, most of them. But they are NOT Christian if they don't accept what is in the creeds.Which creed, the Jerusalem Council creed, the Apostles Creed, or the Nicene Creed. Many follow a creed of some sort, which one do you think makes them not christian?

[visionary]

So now we're going to discuss who is a "true Scotsman", huh?

In my twenty-plus years of being a Christian, not ONCE did I have to recite the Apostles' or the Nicene Creed to determine whether I was a Christian or not. And this was at a 4-C Congregational Church in OH. a Pentecoastal Church in Michigan, and two non-Denominational Churches in OH and NC. The definition of a Christian, from my experience, is someone who accepts the deity of Jesus and takes him as the only path to Christian salvation. The rest is just fluff. Thus, there are Christians of many shapes and sizes; and it just so happens that the vast majority of Messianics also fall into this category.I agree... but each individual church organisation has it own rites that their believer must abide by or acknowledge as truth.. Some of it has nothing to do with the Word of God.

[muffler dragon]

I agree... but each individual church organisation has it own rites that their believer must abide by or acknowledge as truth.. Some of it has nothing to do with the Word of God.

Granted. I was talking about the baseline consideration: Jesus and the cross.

[GerTzedek]

Which creed, the Jerusalem Council creed, the Apostles Creed, or the Nicene Creed. Many follow a creed of some sort, which one do you think makes them not christian?
all of the above. throw in the athanasian creed as well. as I said, the creeds are Christianity's self-definition, the Church's profession of faith, the lists of essential beliefs forumlated at various times to deal with various heresies. Any person or group that can't say the creeds, no matter how Christian-like they are, is not truly Christian. PERIOD. Not that all Christian churches recites these creeds, but they all AGREE with what is in them.

[ChavaK]

Someone said something odd, so forgive me for asking. Did this forum undergo a name change? Did it used to be called Messianic Judaism and was CHANGED to Messianic? If so, what could possibly have been the reasons?

It was voted upon and every person had their own
reason for voting to change the name (or leave it
as it was).
I think Jews voted to change it because most of
the members are not Jews, we don't consider it
Judaism, and, perhaps most important of all, people
from other forums were always coming here to
ask questions of "Jews" or for the Jewish POV, not
realizing they were not being answered by Jews.
I think many of the non-Jews voted to change
it because it reflects in their mind what the
fourm is, and because it has cut down on the
attacks from "outsiders" that used to happen
routinely here.
:wave:

[cyberlizard]

i am glad the forum is essentially 'open'. It allows newbies like myself and my wife to come and post questions without being laughed at or scorned.

People whether Jews, Messianic believers, or Noachides have always been polite to me and have answered my posts in ways I could not have imagined a year or so ago... in fact I year or so ago, I would not even have entertained the fact that G-d had not finished with his people, the Israel..

I would just like to say to all, this of all the forums into which I could actually agree to the rules, this one is the most academically gifts, generally most balanced and most of all show the most respect to its Maker.

It is just a shame that there is such a level of animosity at times.

Perhaps we should all remember the story of the man on the donkey and the 'ugly man'.

Steve

[HadassahSukkot]

Or the story of the man, his son and their donkey.. ;)

[visionary]

all of the above. throw in the athanasian creed as well. as I said, the creeds are Christianity's self-definition, the Church's profession of faith, the lists of essential beliefs forumlated at various times to deal with various heresies. Any person or group that can't say the creeds, no matter how Christian-like they are, is not truly Christian. PERIOD. Not that all Christian churches recites these creeds, but they all AGREE with what is in them.I guess that is why there is no creed that fits us, and hasn't been for centuries for those who follow where the Lord leads... so historically they are defined as heretics. If those who define christianity as you have put it, were in power, we would be classified as heretics again, and being in power, you would think it is right to persecute us based upon those said creeds..... Not good for the spirit of Yeshua.

[muffler dragon]

Any person or group that can't say the creeds, no matter how Christian-like they are, is not truly Christian. PERIOD.

Yet, somehow I'm the one who supposedly lost credibility with a statement I could substantiate.

A Christian is a believer in Jesus and what supposedly happened on the cross. If you (or anyone else for that matter) accepts Jesus and his death on a cross for your (or their) salvation; then you (or they) are a Christian REGARDLESS of creed or denominational affiliation.

[visionary]

Yet, somehow I'm the one who supposedly lost credibility with a statement I could substantiate.

A Christian is a believer in Jesus and what supposedly happened on the cross. If you (or anyone else for that matter) accepts Jesus and his death on a cross for your (or their) salvation; then you (or they) are a Christian REGARDLESS of creed or denominational affiliation.Correct.. thank you.. but within christian groups over centuries, it has become another matter. Just as it was on this forum until Erwin dropped the criteria...creed.

[muffler dragon]

Correct.. thank you.. but within christian groups over centuries, it has become another matter. Just as it was on this forum until Erwin dropped the criteria...creed.

I completely concur. It's just "interesting" to me when looking from the outside in. The wheel is much easier to determine than the spokes.

[GerTzedek]

Yet, somehow I'm the one who supposedly lost credibility with a statement I could substantiate.

A Christian is a believer in Jesus and what supposedly happened on the cross. If you (or anyone else for that matter) accepts Jesus and his death on a cross for your (or their) salvation; then you (or they) are a Christian REGARDLESS of creed or denominational affiliation.
muffler, all you are doing is making up YOUR OWN CREED.

Now a few posts back, you included in your little creed the idea the Jesus is G-d. So....

So far your Chrsitian creed includes the belief that Jesus is G-d, the Messiah and that he died on the cross.

By your definition, MJ is NOT CHRISTIAN.

Why? Because we don't require our members to believe that Yeshua is G-d.

In fact, in my synagogue, we have a two tiered memebership: Leadership and general membership. General membership may include those who do not even accept Yeshua as messiah, and YES we have Jews as general members who do not accept Yeshua as Messiah.

So... you were saying?

[Talmidah]

One must accept the creeds to be Christian. It may not be the only thing, but it is a necessary thing. The whole POINT of the creeds is to list the basics of what Christians believe.

Its like chocolate in a chocolate cake. Without the chocolate, its not a chocolate cake.I had only very cursory knowledge of what a creed even was until I came to this forum. And I was a Christian for years before that.

[GerTzedek]

I had only very cursory knowledge of what a creed even was until I came to this forum. And I was a Christian for years before that.
Most don't. And yet the historical creeds have shaped the churches Chrsitians attend. It is from the creeds that Protestant Churches get their Trinitarianism from, as well as their Christology.

CS Lewis, author of MERE CHRISTIANITY, and beloved by evangelicals, wrote in Christian Reflections Lewis that his assumptions are “the divinity of Christ, the truth of the creeds, and the authority of the Christian tradition,”

I will grant you, however, that as time has gone on, and Protestant churches FORGET their link to the creeds, that their doctrine erodes. You have One-ness Pentecostals. You have churches which baptise people over and over everytime they repent from some new sin, like a spiritaul car-wash.

In the past, there were at least strong denominational structure that held pastors to accountability, and strong scholarship -- my father had to attend seminary for three years past college, where he had to learn Hebrew, Greek, Church History, and a whole shlew of stuff (I have an entire shelf filled with his theology books).

Today, it is not unusual for 19 year olds to take a crash course six-month training up at Big Bear and voila you are now ordained. In fact, in some non-denominational churches, there are no ordained pastors at all.

My prediction? It's just a matter of time before the erosion is complete, and we see much much more of churches that believe that Yeshua was the son of God but not G-d, and all manner of ideas, every little church deciding their own doctrines.

[christianmomof3]

Today, it is not unusual for 19 year olds to take a crash course six-month training up at Big Bear and voila you are now ordained. In fact, in some non-denominational churches, there are no ordained pastors at all.

We took our children up Big Bear Mountain when we were visiting my husband's relatives in the LA area a couple of years ago. We went up it on a really windy road and they all were nauseous. We came down the straight road which was much better. We went to the zoo up there. That was fun!
:sorry: sorry to go off topic
you may now return to your regularly scheduled argument - i mean um - discussion :sorry:

[Zahava]

We took our children up Big Bear Mountain when we were visiting my husband's relatives in the LA area a couple of years ago. We went up it on a really windy road and they all were nauseous. We came down the straight road which was much better. We went to the zoo up there. That was fun!
:sorry: sorry to go off topic
you may now return to your regularly scheduled argument - i mean um - discussion :sorry:

WONDERFUL WAY TO MAKE CLOSURE ON THIS THREAD.
You made me smile.

[Wags]

. You have churches which baptise people over and over everytime they repent from some new sin, like a spiritaul car-wash..

A spiritual car wash? :scratch: Scripture clearly states that mikvah is to occur more than once in a lifetime. The reasons why vary, but repentence is certianly one of them.

Have to say I'm a little surprised to see you disparaging chritstians and the church so freely, when you so greatly protest others doing the same.

[ContentInHim]

One must accept the creeds to be Christian. It may not be the only thing, but it is a necessary thing. The whole POINT of the creeds is to list the basics of what Christians believe.

Its like chocolate in a chocolate cake. Without the chocolate, its not a chocolate cake.
Many denominations do not accept the creeds - not out of belief but out of a desire to not be connected to the historic denominations. So Christians don't have to accept the creeds to be "christian".

[HadassahSukkot]

I'll echo ContentInHim... The first Church I went to that even had anything active or anything to say about the creeds was one organized by the military chaplaincy.... It was a mix of anglicanism and catholicism and 'ecumenical' as well...

We didn't go for long. It got into some really weird new-agey stuff after the first month of going... and it certainly was the 'feel good' type of stuff rather than real sermons or reading more than one or two verses of Scripture.

The second church (and last) I went to that really said much about the creeds (outside of say seminary type classes) was a very 'High Church' Southern Baptist Church I went to in Alabama (for like... a year.. there was nothing else I knew of that was close enough to my beliefs for a while).

I was very uncomfortable with it, and each morning service was ended with Doxology.

The next exposure I had was by proxy through my dad and brother, who were taking seminary courses at their church... and I started studying some on my own.

I just can't be tied down with the creeds. I agree with some things and not all of it.. especially not the traditional understanding that were and are tied to them. It's actually one reason I was in a bind on here when I first was to become moderator.

I agree with most of the Nicene creed, but not how it came about and not for the full intents and purposes it had. I agree as a general 'binding status' of what I believe vs being an out and out heretic in the full sense of the word... but that's it.

I do not agree that it was a good thing that happened which was one more rung in the ladder to leave behind what was the Messianic belief of the time and created shift between it and what we call "the Historic Church".

I had no knowledge of the creeds before and I know most my relatives have no knowledge of them. They just are not taught in most congregations. Sure, the pastors learn about them in seminary, but most don't carry much of that with them and then teach on it.

They tend to take the theology imparted to them and pair it peicemeal with the scripture they do know to make a sermon.


TBH, until the last 7 years or so, I didn't understand the split and deliniation between Baptists and Presbyterians since I had been to both style of church services and had friends in both denominations... It wasn't until I was 12 or 13 that I knew what the Catholic Church is/was teaching in Spain and other Latin Countries I have been to... and I didn't know what the difference in their beliefs and ours were other than 'veneration of saints' and different holidays. (I don't think my parents knew either)

It just isn't taught anymore like it used to be, and information though it is more available now than it ever was, people don't go investigating until they really want to know about something or until their pastors suggest they do so... or offer classes.


I know the differences now and I see now why it was best for me to leave those things behind. If anything, I feel more comfortable in a Synagogue any day than a Church. Mainly due to reading of scripture and the mindset of being there to worship and study about G-d than the 'country club' meet and greet society... the who's who of Whoville.. and the fact that Scripture is Read and taught... not opinion, not 'I think..' not commentary. Scripture.

If I were burdened to pick a church, I just don't think I could.... for many reasons outside of the creeds, their structure and teaching.

I want to hear Scripture and study and fellowship with people on a true level, not this 'social club' level of 'oh hi! nice to see you' and then leaving someone alone when they definitely could use help, more instruction or socialization.


You could say I have been burned, but I haven't really. I just see what I see and don't like it. I try to change it if I am a member, but I got to tell ya, a lot of these committies, elders, pastors and all do not like change, not even from within and look on it as 'questioning their authority' and will do all they can to run you out.

Been there, done that, and watched it happen all around my area
to other people. And it has become more and more prevalent in the USA, and there are even pastorate forums where they freely talk about it.

It honestly makes me ill, but more appreciative of my home base back in AL... and my family. Without them, I don't know where I would be right now, other than more or less agnostic. :(

[christianmomof3]

.
I know the differences now and I see now why it was best for me to leave those things behind. If anything, I feel more comfortable in a Synagogue any day than a Church. Mainly due to reading of scripture and the mindset of being there to worship and study about G-d than the 'country club' meet and greet society... the who's who of Whoville.. and the fact that Scripture is Read and taught... not opinion, not 'I think..' not commentary. Scripture.

If I were burdened to pick a church, I just don't think I could.... for many reasons outside of the creeds, their structure and teaching.

I want to hear Scripture and study and fellowship with people on a true level, not this 'social club' level of 'oh hi! nice to see you' and then leaving someone alone when they definitely could use help, more instruction or socialization.

That is interesting.
But you know what, all the synagogues I ever went to - including the Conservative and Orthodox ones that I visted with friends and relatives all had that "social club" atmosphere.
The mindset was that you go to services because that is what you do to be a good Jew.
It was not to study scriptures or to study about God.
You had to dress nice, sit quietly except when responsive reading or reading aloud of prayers together was required and listen and be bored to death and then gossip with everyone afterwards.
I left the Jewish religion because of that atomosphere and because it seemed hypocritical to me.
Similarly many people leave denominational Christianity for the same reasons.

[HadassahSukkot]

Interesting.

From our area (Bham, AL) the Reform Synagogue is more known for this (and the Rabbi being quite rabid about issues and writing and complaining all the time in the newspaper and news....sadly)... some of the older folks at the Conservative shul were kind of that way, but everyone seemed to actually be there to learn.

At my old shul, EVERYONE was there to learn, and I loved it... first time in a very long time I went to a congregation like that!

[GerTzedek]

That is interesting.
But you know what, all the synagogues I ever went to - including the Conservative and Orthodox ones that I visted with friends and relatives all had that "social club" atmosphere.
The mindset was that you go to services because that is what you do to be a good Jew.
It was not to study scriptures or to study about God.
You had to dress nice, sit quietly except when responsive reading or reading aloud of prayers together was required and listen and be bored to death and then gossip with everyone afterwards.
I left the Jewish religion because of that atomosphere and because it seemed hypocritical to me.
Similarly many people leave denominational Christianity for the same reasons.


Why does dressing nicely to show respect for G-d's house or sitting quietly in reverence make you think "social club'?

[christianmomof3]

Why does dressing nicely to show respect for G-d's house or sitting quietly in reverence make you think "social club'?
The dressing nicely was because everyone was going to see your clothes and you had to dress to impres them. Neither of those things were what made it a social club or country club though.
The social club or country club atmosphere was due to the fact that although I live in a large city, the Jewish community is pretty close and everyone knows everyone and everybody's business. When people went to synagogue it was because it was a holidy or a bar mitzvah, wedding or funeral or some other event. And there was not an attitude of studying about God or wanting to learn about God. There was some worship of God, but even that was because that is what you were supposed to do, not out of any love for or concern for God.

I honestly never ever ever heard anyone say that they wanted to learn more about God or that they loved God or cared about God or anything other than if they were saying it in a prayer that was scripted into the service.

And you could always find out the latest gossip and get filled in on what everyone was doing at the synagogue.
I would say that my experience of the Jewish religion is similar to what I hear many people say about their experiences of nominal Christianity.
There was no reality there.
It was superficial.

That does not mean that I think the whole Jewish religion is superficial although I did for a while. Just because many Christians find that the groups they meet with in nominal Christianity are superficial does not mean that all Christians are superficial either.

[Bananna]

I am disgusted. How cowardly.

You can name the forum "messianic," but what this is, is Messianic Judaism, and I refuse to call it anything but. I'm sorry if people don't like that term. While our Jewish friends have a right to complain about the inclusion of the term "Judaism," it s NOT Hebrew Christianity despite their insistence.

This was a HUGE mistake. HUGE. I just can't believe you all did this.
Well some of the people that voted that way are not here anymore, we could always take another vote, though I'm sure our Jewish members would prefer we did not call our forum Messianic Judaism as they do not believe we practice any sect of Judaism.

[Bananna]

I will grant you, however, that as time has gone on, and Protestant churches FORGET their link to the creeds, that their doctrine erodes. You have One-ness Pentecostals. You have churches which baptise people over and over everytime they repent from some new sin, like a spiritaul car-wash.

.....
My prediction? It's just a matter of time before the erosion is complete, and we see much much more of churches that believe that Yeshua was the son of God but not G-d, and all manner of ideas, every little church deciding their own doctrines.

Baptism is not a one time dealy especially for us women. It is called the Mikveh

"Blessed are you oh LORD our God king of the Universe, who has sanctified us by his commandments and commanded us on immersion."

If may not be so necessary without a temple, but we try to do all we can to prepare for the rebuilding of the temple. Before Yome Kippur and Passover at least and some ever friday for the Sabbath. It really depends on what it means to you outside the temple context.

Ofcourse most just take a regular bath daily and don't feel the need to spiritualize any of them.

As for getting away from the creeds... I believe that is a good thing. I read an interesting comment from a rabbi last night. "Being God's chosen people" this should not make one arrogant but humble and not judgemental of those who are not Jewsh.

The unfortunate side effect of creeds is that many become arrogant and judgemental. (not accusing any here... it has beem much more plesant than in the past)

I'm tired of sermons on the evils of this sect and that sect and the other sect. Because they don't hold to our congregationally accepted creeds. I still attend a dispensational congregation on Sunday... and don't bother them with alternate theology. We love God and serve him to the best of our understanding.

Bananna

[ChavaK]

The dressing nicely was because everyone was going to see your clothes and you had to dress to impres them.

But do you know this for sure? Remember, always
judge favorably.
I wear my best clothes on shabbas and to shul, not
to show it off to others but because I would never
dream of approaching G-d or dishonoring shabbas
by dressing like a shlump.
Maybe these people are doing likewise-even if they
are there for the social/country club atmosphere,
they may have memories from childhood and were
taught it was proper to dress thus in HaShem's
house and this has remained with them.

[ChavaK]

the Jewish community is pretty close and everyone knows everyone and everybody's business.
Ain't that the truth! I suspect every Jewish community is
the same....:)

When people went to synagogue it was because it was a holidy or a bar mitzvah, wedding or funeral or some other event. And there was not an attitude of studying about God or wanting to learn about God. There was some worship of God, but even that was because that is what you were supposed to do, not out of any love for or concern for God.

I honestly never ever ever heard anyone say that they wanted to learn more about God or that they loved God or cared about God or anything other than if they were saying it in a prayer that was scripted into the service.
This is what happens when Jews become High Holy Day
Jews...they are secular and have lost their connection to G-d.
I also think it sad that so many Jews have been affected by
the Western society that they live in...Judaism has never been
outwardly presented as is Christianity. It is very much internalized, and Jews today do not realize that...they see
the Christians with their talk of G-d and religion, and do not
see it outwardly in Judasim and they do not realize the depth
of spirituality Judaism offers. It is not on the surface, you have
to work to see it-Judaism is not an in-your-face religion.
Everytime I wear a sheitl or my husband a yarmulke, we
are proclaiming that we fulfilling the mitzvot and connecting
to G-d by doing His will. We are acknowledging the Almighty
is involved in every fiber of our existence. Every mitzvot
is a spiritual elevation of the mundane, but it is not "G-d
talk" to others....it is our conversation with HaShem.

And you could always find out the latest gossip and get filled in on what everyone was doing at the synagogue.
I hear Christians complain about the same thing-people
seem to universaly be gossipers..

I would say that my experience of the Jewish religion is similar to what I hear many people say about their experiences of nominal Christianity.
There was no reality there.
It was superficial.
I am sorry you had such a poor experience with Judasim...