CCC forum staff conference and discussion

[Lisa0315]

Thank You for this opportunity, Tishri1!

I have mentioned to you in PM that I am having problems of feeling in the middle between my members and between Senior Staff. This is NOT a complaint against Senior Staff, simply a newbie mod, not knowing which end is up considering all the reports and negative attention that CCC forums have received recently.

Here is an example of what my members are writing to me: Used by permission, but edited to conceal the member's identity:

Re: Hi...



Quote:
Originally Posted by
I'm not sure if you have access to who reports what, but if you don't, it was me that reported xxx. I wasn't trying to be spiteful or oversensitive. I just honestly thought there would finally be a place where I would be accepted for being a conservative Christian and not be called hateful for it.

I don't care that he posted , or that he even called for us to calm down. It was the hate part. I don't hate anyone, but I do believe that homosexuality and abortion go against God. I don't hate people who disagree with me, but I guess that doesn't matter. I'm not a debator, I don't like conflict. I usually am very even-handed with my acceptance and forgiveness. I don't like being called hateful for feeling the exact same way the OP before xxx feels. I guess I am, though, according to xxx
I don't want to start trouble right off the bat, so you can forget I said anything. You can close the report. I don't care. I do worry about xxx need to solely blame the members of CC for all the problems it is having.

Anyhoo, sorry to cause a stir.

xxx


My Response to this member:
Anyway, I can edit this PM and give me permission to use it to help me figure out exactly what stance I am supposed to take as your moderator? May I use it if I edit out that last paragraph and that last sentence? We can even eliminate all evidence of who you are if you like it, but I need to show this to other staff about how my members are feeling.

Lisa

The Member's Response back to me:

Absotively :)

I think you are doing a great job, and I think you are one of the sweetest people I have met here in my two+ years as a member. :hug:

I don't want to cause you any undue stress, I am truly sorry for that.

[Lisa0315]

So, again, I know, absolutely KNOW what my members want. When I try to make a ruling, I am outnumbered. (Again, please do not take this as criticism. I am trying to tell you how it feels to be me at the moment)

And the thing is, the rulings are not in keeping with CCC rules. If my members are working on a rule, and someone outside of CCC comes in and makes a comment, it may get reported, even if it is extremely nice. My members do not want interference from non-members when they are making rules.

Most of the reports though are not nice. We had one yesterday that was a slam to CCC forums, but no one but me could see the problem. My members could. My members were frustrated. Senior Staff could not understand why it was a violation.

We have one today that says, "...speaking of hate". If the sentence had been written all the way out in the context of the post, it would have said. "Speaking of hate, that is what I think of when I read the OP." This is from a non-member. It is negative. It is a flame. I am the only staff member who thinks so. My members think so, and this is what the above PM is in regards to.

So, I feel very in the middle here. There are two things on my mind: Who do I work for? Do I work for CCC members that elected me and enforce the rules that they have written? Am I simply a third voice who must agree with Senior Staff even when I know they are wrong?

What happens when CCC is fully staffed? Do Smods outweigh the voices of a fully staffed three person mod unit? If three of us agree, but a Smod doesn't, are we going to be overruled? If so, then, there is no point.

Again, I realize that this sounds extremely critical, but it is not. It is my personal experience and I need to know truthfully what is expected of me.

Am I allowed to moderate according to CCC rules or not? If the answer is that I need to be more agreeable or that I need to take my cue from Senior Staff, I honestly do not know if this job is for me.

I am frustrated and so are my members. My members are over there right now trying to make my life easier by defining fellowship, debate, and baiting.

The other thing, and I know this is a long post...but the other thing is divided loyalties...

Smods are modding many different forums and they are looking at the rights of all members. It seems that they are using site-wide guidelines to help them rule.

I, on the other hand, am modding only one forum, and my votes are based solely on the rules in CCC.

So, that is why I think that my votes are clashing with Smods right now. They are not wrong from a total ET perspective, but within CCC, they are not making the right rulings according to CCC rules.

I need some guidance here. I am not trying to be a problem. I am just trying to do my job and I feel like I am being pulled in ten different directions.

I have Admins who are also one of my members voicing "concerns". I have members leaving. I have Smods who are doing their best to not get mad at me, I am sure.

I do not want to be patted on the head. I need direct conversation. Do not worry about my feelings. I just need to know where I stand and how I am supposed to handle this in the future.

Lisa

[Jim47]

Lisa, we do moderate what the members want, we moderate by rules.

The posts members make in report theads may have usful information, but the members do not have a say as whether the post reported is a violation or not, again, we follow rules.

Being a moderator is not a popularity contest. We don't make ruulings to gain support from our members, we govern by the rules they have give us and the site rules. Once you have figured this out it will all become easier for you.

[Lisa0315]

Lisa, we do moderate what the members want, we moderate by rules.

The posts members make in report theads may have usful information, but the members do not have a say as whether the post reported is a violation or not, again, we follow rules.

Being a moderator is not a popularity contest. We don't make ruulings to gain support from our members, we govern by the rules they have give us and the site rules. Once you have figured this out it will all become easier for you.

I actually resent that Jim. I am not looking to be popular. I am looking to do what is right. Please do not disregard my concerns like that. It is unfair and untrue.

Lisa

[Jim47]

Smods are modding many different forums and they are looking at the rights of all members. It seems that they are using site-wide guidelines to help them rule.

I, on the other hand, am modding only one forum, and my votes are based solely on the rules in CCC.




I have Admins who are also one of my members voicing "concerns". I have members leaving. I have Smods who are doing their best to not get mad at me, I am sure.


Lisa


We use site wide rules and CC rules, What is written in the wiki isn't a rule until its been snapshotted.

What Admin has concerns? Why I haven't I heard about it?

[Jim47]

I actually resent that Jim. I am not looking to be popular. I am looking to do what is right. Please do not disregard my concerns like that. It is unfair and untrue.

Lisa


My statement wasn't meant to insult, it was meant as instruction, so how is that bad.

[Lisa0315]

We use site wide rules and CC rules, What is written in the wiki isn't a rule until its been snapshotted.

What Admin has concerns? Why I haven't I heard about it?

I sent the PM with permission. Am I allowed to post that here or state the name?

Our rules are snapshotted, Jim. That is why I am so frustrated. I have cited the rules and I still am "wrong".

Look at this report: http://foru.ms/t6031396-conservative-christians-belindap-09-03-2007.html

I had about 3 admins in there last night giving me crap. Actually, Letalis stuck up for me. One of those Admins PM'd me last night and today telling me that I was ignoring "counseling from staff". I am? I didn't realize I was being counseled. He said that staff was concerned with my "moderation style". They are? First, I have heard of it.

So, are there discussions going on that I don't know about?

You do understand that I am about an inch from a resignation because of all of this, right? I am not making a threat. I just do not need this. I am asking for truthful guidance so that I can make my decision.

Lisa

[Jim47]

I sent the PM with permission. Am I allowed to post that here or state the name?

Our rules are snapshotted, Jim. That is why I am so frustrated. I have cited the rules and I still am "wrong".

Look at this report: http://foru.ms/t6031396-conservative-christians-belindap-09-03-2007.html

I had about 3 admins in there last night giving me crap. Actually, Letalis stuck up for me. One of those Admins PM'd me last night and today telling me that I was ignoring "counseling from staff". I am? I didn't realize I was being counseled. He said that staff was concerned with my "moderation style". They are? First, I have heard of it.

So, are there discussions going on that I don't know about?

You do understand that I am about an inch from a resignation because of all of this, right? I am not making a threat. I just do not need this. I am asking for truthful guidance so that I can make my decision.

Lisa



First of all, please accept my apology if I've been too hard on you.

I posted in the report you linked here.

I'm not sure what you are asking me here. If you have permission to post a PM then I guess Ok, if you're not sure then forward it to me and I'll tell you what I think, of course I have no clue what this about.


Lisa the major problem I see here is that you see everything that a non member writes as debate. We simply can not make that determination. If someone makes a statement like in the report you linked to here she is voicing her opinion. While some may not like that its also not a rule violation and can not be called debate.

As for Geo and Tonks in the reports, there voices are as members. They gave you advice and asked you questions. The member posts don't affect our decision as to what is a violation or not. It requires a lot of training "and" experience to get good at this and understand it all. Once you've done that you will find a greater comfort level.

If at any point you find yourself depressed or perplexed do this. Let someone know you need time off, and 2, take it. I've come close to quitting several times, the last was only 3 weeks ago.

As hard as I try I can not keep up with reports, and now I have to start training as well. I am very far behind on reports and I apologize for that, but I'm also not going to sacrifice my health for this forum, you shouldn't either.

Its all just words on a monitor, so don't lose any sleep over it. :hug:

[Lel]

Well, it seems that the non-Protestants in ET can rule according to forum-specific rules, so why not the CC forum? Either all of ET unites or everyone mods as they please.

This is a member opinion only.

[Lisa0315]

First of all, please accept my apology if I've been too hard on you.

I posted in the report you linked here.

I'm not sure what you are asking me here. If you have permission to post a PM then I guess Ok, if you're not sure then forward it to me and I'll tell you what I think, of course I have no clue what this about.


Lisa the major problem I see here is that you see everything that a non member writes as debate. We simply can not make that determination. If someone makes a statement like in the report you linked to here she is voicing her opinion. While some may not like that its also not a rule violation and can not be called debate.

As for Geo and Tonks in the reports, there voices are as members. They gave you advice and asked you questions. The member posts don't affect our decision as to what is a violation or not. It requires a lot of training "and" experience to get good at this and understand it all. Once you've done that you will find a greater comfort level.

If at any point you find yourself depressed or perplexed do this. Let someone know you need time off, and 2, take it. I've come close to quitting several times, the last was only 3 weeks ago.

As hard as I try I can not keep up with reports, and now I have to start training as well. I am very far behind on reports and I apologize for that, but I'm also not going to sacrifice my health for this forum, you shouldn't either.

Its all just words on a monitor, so don't lose any sleep over it. :hug:

He told me I could forward the PM to you, Tishri and Flaglady. He did not tell me that I could post it here.

That being said, I feel like we are still coming from two different directions.

You say that I am citing violations when a non-member posts. No, I am not. I am citing violations that are strictly by the book.

Example #1:

CCC Member begins a thread to discuss a new rule. Rule threads are not for fellowshipping, and therefore any post by a non-member is subject to be called "debate". If reported, I have to treat it as such. Those ARE the rules. It may not be the rule in any other forum at 4U, but it is the rule in CCC.

Example #2: Members are discussing and venting about problems from Liberal Members. Liberal members come in and comment. People get upset. It is not fellowshipping. Therefore, it is a violation.

Example #3: A non-member poses a question. Members may answer. Non-members may not. If they do, it is a violation.

Example #4: Members are fellowshipping and cutting up. A non-member participates, and someone reports the person. This is NOT a violation.

It has to do with the subject matter of when it is fellowship and when it is not.

I can give you example after example in which I cited a violation and you or other Senior staff said something similar: "This is not debate! NV" Maybe, it would not be debate in any other place, but in CCC, according to the rules, it is.

So, that is why I am frustrated here. I am using CCC rules. You are using site wide rules. I am new school. You are old school. I feel like this is why you and I rarely agree on reports anymore.

Now, my members are attempting to better define what is debate, what is fellowship, and what is baiting.

From that link to that report, you can see where from CCC rules, it was a violation. It was a rules discussion, and that person came in to tell us all what she thought of our forum. I was alone and on top of that, I had Admins, ONE of which is a member in CCC, not all, but they were giving me grief last night over my call. I had no back up, no support, no one.

On top of that, now I am doubting myself. So, that is why I am here. I am not trying to point fingers. I am trying to make people understand what I am up against.

Lisa

[Jim47]

Which rule was violated?

General Rules:

Only confirmed members of the CC forum may apply to be moderators of the forum, and only confirmed members of the CC forum are permitted to vote on the applicants.
Confirmed members are listed. Any new member wishing to become a member of the congregation must be added to the confirmed list before being able to vote or debate. We also add an exception to this rule that the staff/members have discretion (on a case-by-case basis) to allow limited debate with non-members when outreach is the goal.
Because of the stark contrast between the Liberal viewpoints vs. Conservative Christian viewpoints, members in this forum can only be a member of one, not both, of these fora.
Non-Christians and Non-Conservative Christians may post questions and make fellowship posts, but not give answers regarding, or debate, conservative beliefs. Non-members of the forum also may not give advice to posters who come to this forum looking for help and advice.

[Tishri1]

:wave:

Which rule was violated?

General Rules:
Only confirmed members of the CC forum may apply to be moderators of the forum, and only confirmed members of the CC forum are permitted to vote on the applicants.
Confirmed members are listed. Any new member wishing to become a member of the congregation must be added to the confirmed list before being able to vote or debate. We also add an exception to this rule that the staff/members have discretion (on a case-by-case basis) to allow limited debate with non-members when outreach is the goal.
Because of the stark contrast between the Liberal viewpoints vs. Conservative Christian viewpoints, members in this forum can only be a member of one, not both, of these fora.
Non-Christians and Non-Conservative Christians may post questions and make fellowship posts, but not give answers regarding, or debate, conservative beliefs. Non-members of the forum also may not give advice to posters who come to this forum looking for help and advice.#4

[Lisa0315]

Thank You. :thumbsup:

Lisa

[Lel]

Right now this affects ET staff the most, but in the past has affected much of CF staff.

The first role is that of a referee. The referee is there to maintain a level playing field for viewpoints and little to nothing more. The referee mod strongly values neutrality, open discussion, minimal intervention, and fairness. Many of the older staff that have stayed on are strong referee mods. (Many older staff that left were actually the second type of mod that I will discuss.)

The other type of mod is the protector-advocate mod. This mod wants to shield their area from the barbs of invaders and uphold the purpose of their area. The protector-advocate values standing up for Truth, ensuring correct doctrine, and keeping their members safe from attackers. We're starting to see forums electing protector-advocate mods now.

Staff need to ascertain what direction or directions to go in with moderating. Can certain forums have referee mods and others have protector-advocate mods?

Another thing to consider is the mod and their role with respect to certain forums. Let's say a Catholic mod moderated OBOB and Anabaptists. They might be a protector-advocate mod for OBOB but a referee mod for Anabaptists.

It's probably apparent from some of my other postings that I consider both moderating approaches valid. When CF was starting to become protector-advocate in leadership style, I was somewhat concerned as the protector-advocate model isn't very inclusive to those who aren't in the flock, and I had some sizable differences from the P/A leadership at the time. But yet, I think there is a strong need for P/A moderated forums insofar as they don't take over all of foru.ms.

CC really seems to yearn for a P/A style of moderation. From my referee mod POV, if you give that protection to TAW and to some extent OBOB, CC should be extended that same permission to elect and seat P/A moderators.

[Lisa0315]

Right now this affects ET staff the most, but in the past has affected much of CF staff.

The first role is that of a referee. The referee is there to maintain a level playing field for viewpoints and little to nothing more. The referee mod strongly values neutrality, open discussion, minimal intervention, and fairness. Many of the older staff that have stayed on are strong referee mods. (Many older staff that left were actually the second type of mod that I will discuss.)

The other type of mod is the protector-advocate mod. This mod wants to shield their area from the barbs of invaders and uphold the purpose of their area. The protector-advocate values standing up for Truth, ensuring correct doctrine, and keeping their members safe from attackers. We're starting to see forums electing protector-advocate mods now.

Staff need to ascertain what direction or directions to go in with moderating. Can certain forums have referee mods and others have protector-advocate mods?

Another thing to consider is the mod and their role with respect to certain forums. Let's say a Catholic mod moderated OBOB and Anabaptists. They might be a protector-advocate mod for OBOB but a referee mod for Anabaptists.

It's probably apparent from some of my other postings that I consider both moderating approaches valid. When CF was starting to become protector-advocate in leadership style, I was somewhat concerned as the protector-advocate model isn't very inclusive to those who aren't in the flock, and I had some sizable differences from the P/A leadership at the time. But yet, I think there is a strong need for P/A moderated forums insofar as they don't take over all of foru.ms.

CC really seems to yearn for a P/A style of moderation. From my referee mod POV, if you give that protection to TAW and to some extent OBOB, CC should be extended that same permission to elect and seat P/A moderators.

Thank the Good Lord in Heaven!

THAT, is what I have been trying to say, but I couldn't say it in a way that could be understood. CCC members want protection and that is the role that I saw myself in!

Lisa

[Lel]

Thank the Good Lord in Heaven!

THAT, is what I have been trying to say, but I couldn't say it in a way that could be understood. CCC members want protection and that is the role that I saw myself in!

Lisa

And in that role, Lisa, you are superb, awesome, great, wonderful, need I go on?

The issue is that with others seeing your role as a strictly referee mod, someone who is called as a protector-advocate isn't going to look as great as a referee. It's like saying Michael Jordan is a mediocre athlete because of his baseball skills. Well, yeah, but he's being asked to play basketball, not baseball (except for those horrible two years of 94-95 where the Bulls were stuck without him because he was off playing baseball but I digress).

[flaglady]

My take on how to mod? That once elected, you mod by the rules, fsrs and site-wide, not by what any member thinks you should/shouldn't do. That's what rules are for, to be equitable and even handed. Which means being equitable and even handed to all 4U members, not just members of CCC.

BUT ....

what puzzles me about all this :scratch: , is how this you feel - as you have said in reports several times - that you are modding CCC "all on (your) own" and that Smods come in and 'interfere'.

Now, I don't know about Jim (well, yes I do but I wouldn't seek to speak for him! ^_^ ) but, for the simple reason that we're not up to strength yet on that score, I see myself as a mod in CCC . I see myself as a forum mod in CCC, Baptist, SF-P&C, Looking for a church and House Groups and Cells. So when I come in and state my opinion on a report, I'm a mod, just like you, Lisa, albeit one with a lot more experience. And therefore, insofar as that goes, our 'votes' are equal. You have an opinion, I have an opinion, Jim has an opinion. Three votes. And a consensus is reached. In the presence of three, the maths of it is that it has to be 2-1.

Therefore, I am distressed and dismayed that you see yourself as the sole mod for the area and Jim and I merely as popping in to spike your guns because that's not being a team player :eek: . You say things like

When I try to make a ruling, I am outnumbered.Am I simply a third voice who must agree with Senior Staff even when I know they are wrong?What happens when CCC is fully staffed? Do Smods outweigh the voices of a fully staffed three person mod unit? If three of us agree, but a Smod doesn't, are we going to be overruled? If so, then, there is no point.Plus - and this is the real biggy - why have you not approached me on this issue before :cry: ? Why is it that the first I hear of your distress is in a thread in the staff forum - not that there's anything wrong with a thread in the staff forum don't get me wrong - but you talk of us in the third person as if we're strangers instead of fellow team members :cry:. Team members talk to each other and discuss. You label Jim and I almost as if we were interlopers coming into 'your' patch which is not on. You have constantly referred to us in the third person almost as if a) you don't know us and b) we have no right to be in there.

We're your team mates. We're supposed to be modding this forum together :groupray:. And if you have issues with us, then first let us conference by pm or on msn (personally I prefer the latter) and thrash this thing out between the three of us. Because you haven't given either of us a single, starting chance to come together about this issue. Though I could tell you were unhappy, I couldn't figure out why. I didn't even know what the issue was except that it was escalating and was about to pm you :hug: when all this bruhaha erupted. That's my only issue with your moderating style that I am aware of at present. That you seem to think you and you alone are responsible for what goes on in CCC.

I'll be blunt - you asked me yesterday, in the first pm I've had from you, if there was anything wrong with your moderating style and I have to tell you yes, there is. Whilst you are showing great potential as a terrific mod, you still have a lot to learn. You've done your best to hit the road running, which is a great credit to you :hug: BUT you still have a lot to learn. You've been a mod just two weeks - two weeks - and are already taking stances that most mods wouldn't havedone til they'd been 3 months down the line. Good for you. You have my admiration, :bow: seriously. But - you have to allow yourself to be taught. You have to allow those with more experience to lead you and share their knowledge and skills. You have to - for your own sanity - not be so intense about all this :cool:. It's not the United Nations (though sometimes feels like it! :P), WW3 is not going to erupt because we made an iffy decision here and there. Give yourself a break because I'll tell you this - if you keep up this frenetic pace and anxiety about it all, you'll burn out quicker'n a match and that's a fact :swoon:.


If I may reiterate some points
1. you are not modding CCC all on your own
2. You, Jim and I should be a team
3. Come to us first if you have problems. We're not monsters and we are approachable. We can listen to you but here's the deal - you have to listen to us too! :thumbsup:

And finally a reminder

If I may quote: :preach:
“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

[Lisa0315]

Okay, counseled, chastened, and ready to serve again.

I feel that my team has helped me understand where I was wrong and also met me in the middle to understand my frustration.

Apparantly, this has been encountered before. It was me trying to be a Protector/Advocate without understanding that Jim and FlagLady were trying to keep an even playing field for all posters.

On top of this, I am a newbie mod and challenging my supes in open forums was not the right thing to do.

Finally, I let my own arrogance, willfulness and anger cause me to become frustrated and act inappropriately.

I even went so far as to scoff at an offer of apology and reconciliation.

So, for all of this, I apologize and humbly ask for your forgiveness.

I want to serve my members, but I also want to be a team player. I could not see how I could do both, but now I understand.

What is needed from me is to get with my members and work out the rules not to exclude anyone, yet offer protection at the same time. This is a fine line and I welcome any suggestions from other congregations of how they are doing this.

Lisa

[flaglady]

Okay, counseled, chastened, and ready to serve again.

I feel that my team has helped me understand where I was wrong and also met me in the middle to understand my frustration.

Apparantly, this has been encountered before. It was me trying to be a Protector/Advocate without understanding that Jim and FlagLady were trying to keep an even playing field for all posters.

On top of this, I am a newbie mod and challenging my supes in open forums was not the right thing to do.

Finally, I let my own arrogance, willfulness and anger cause me to become frustrated and act inappropriately.

I even went so far as to scoff at an offer of apology and reconciliation.

So, for all of this, I apologize and humbly ask for your forgiveness.

I want to serve my members, but I also want to be a team player. I could not see how I could do both, but now I understand.

What is needed from me is to get with my members and work out the rules not to exclude anyone, yet offer protection at the same time. This is a fine line and I welcome any suggestions from other congregations of how they are doing this.

Lisa

Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.

You are blessed, Lisa, and I foretell that you will be a really great mod. I will count it as a privilege to be part of enabling that.

[Tishri1]

I agree Lisa will be an asset to us all:groupray:

, thanks for all the words of wisdom in here :thumbsup:

Lisa you have my PMs as well ...

you know what I do when I get good advice I save it in a thread in my private drafts do you keep stuff in there too? do you know where it is? I keep all the wise councel I get in there and save it and it has blessed me over and over again to read it there

there is truly wise counsel here:hug:

thanks everyone for your input into Lisa's life, thanks Lisa for showing the fruit of the spirit in here:hug::hug::hug:

[Jim47]

LIsa, you are already doing a good job, but as flaglady my Buddy Jo :hug: said, we are a team. Jo and I do just as much as time possibly allows us and I know its never enough, but we are only human.

Just to say again what Jo said above, we mod by rules and rules only. Forum consenus and members posts in a repaort are for iunfo only. They do not steer us one way or another as to what we will do. That judgement is made solely by the rules they give us once they have been snap shotted, wiki's don't count at all until they have been snapshotted.

I still ask for others input on some reports as I don't always see the reaosn for the report in the first place. Then I try to confirm waht was the posters intention. Was it a violation or only an opinion that was offered. You will find in time that we simply can't report and edit out every opinion. We already have 5 times the reports that we used to and that is because everyone is scrambling to protect what they call theirs while over looking the chance for good discussion.

Ron write me bacck after he posted in our fellowship defination thread last night. He told me that he thought we were making big mistakes with so many rules, but that nearly all forums start out that way then when they figure out what it did, and that is to squelch out voices they relaxed their rules to the point of almost having none.

Take a look at TCL forum rules. They are pretty lienient, but are much more then we had up till a few months agoi when we had certain visitors that were over extending their privledge as visitos and say really horrible things about us and our beliefs, the likes of which you have seen nothing even close in CC.

In short relax a little and try to enjoy yourself and the reports will take their proper place. They afterall are just words on a monitor, and once they are written the damage has already been done, just like when you write something and later regret it. We've all done the same. :)

[Lisa0315]

I believe that listening to members is a valid moderating style. I will try to be more steady in looking at the rights of guests as well as my members.

However, I think the best thing to avoid this conflict between mod styles is to make sure that FSR's are worded in such a way that reports can be ruled solely from the FSR's without conflicting in any way with SWR's. FSR's should compliment not supercede.

Lisa