A Possible Answer to the Identity Crisis Within the Messianic Community

[infaithonly]

For those of you Gentiles trying to be Jewish and those of you Jewish
people trying to be Gentile, stop it. In the Torah, it states to not opress the alien living within your gates. When an alien was living, they usually adapted to the ways of the people living around them without necessarily losing thier identity. As both Jews and Gentiles in this movement, it is important that we not forget that this Earth is not home, heaven is. We are all sojourners traveling side by side in an unknown land like our ancestors did in Canaan. As a Gentile with a rumored partial Jewish ancestry, I am afforded the rights and priveleges as any full-blooded ethnic Jew would be who believes in Yeshua. It does not matter what DNA I have, you can be of any ancestry and still be an Israelite by believing in Yeshua. In a way, we are spiritually Jewish. But as far as physicall identity goes, do not put your focus on it, it is useless for salvation. Be content with who you are and not try to be somebody. Dont get wrong, I am not against adopting Jewish customs like Kosher, wearing tallits and kippahs, and others. In fact, I encorparate some of these in my worship to enrich it. But as far as trying to be a different person, just stop it. So just relax knowing the fact that you already are a full citizen already part of the Jewish Olive Tree.

[Bananna]

I'm sorry but this thread should be moved to debate.

Orthodox is for us to discuss halacha without this debate.

bananna

[GerTzedek]

infaith: I have no problem with messianic gentiles keeping nearly all the mitzvot. but there ARE certain exceptions.

It is not for gentiles to wear talit. Talit are a symbol of a Covenant that they do not have.

Gentiles should do at least one thing which breaks shabbat, such as drive, or flip a light switch, in order not to observe shabbat in a 100% Jewish way, so that they can honor the understanding that G-d gave shabbat to Israel and not to the nations.

I think gentiles who voluntarily choose to observe the covenant out of love receive blessings. I only have a cow when people start saying that gentiles MUST observe the Covenant! :D

infaith: do you make zero expeptions for the ger?

[GerTzedek]

I'm sorry but this thread should be moved to debate.

Orthodox is for us to discuss halacha without this debate.

bananna
I agree

[Bananna]

infaith: I have no problem with messianic gentiles keeping nearly all the mitzvot. but there ARE certain exceptions.

It is not for gentiles to wear talit. Talit are a symbol of a Covenant that they do not have.

Gentiles should do at least one thing which breaks shabbat, such as drive, or flip a light switch, in order not to observe shabbat in a 100% Jewish way, so that they can honor the understanding that G-d gave shabbat to Israel and not to the nations.

I think gentiles who voluntarily choose to observe the covenant out of love receive blessings. I only have a cow when people start saying that gentiles MUST observe the Covenant! :D

infaith: do you make zero expeptions for the ger?

I have layed hold of the covenant and therefore the laws do apply to me.

However Tzitzit are generally on a man's garment and I do not wear formal tzit tzit. I do wear blue thread and fringes which are a sign to not forget the Torah.

Everyone breaks Shabbat in one form so I don't see that there can be an argument there. No offense meant but no matter how well I keep it I'd likely still get some technicality wrong.

but I love you for blessing me with your convictions about the matter.

I might feel differently if I lived inside a Jewish community. I abide by the Elder/or Rabbi of a communities ruling on matters. That may sound like passing the buck but I believe unity far out weighs personal interpretation. I also believe that if the leader is causing me to stray that he will bare the consequences.

JMO
bananna

[GerTzedek]

I have layed hold of the covenant and therefore the laws do apply to me.

However Tzitzit are generally on a man's garment and I do not wear formal tzit tzit. I do wear blue thread and fringes which are a sign to not forget the Torah.

Everyone breaks Shabbat in one form so I don't see that there can be an argument there. No offense meant but no matter how well I keep it I'd likely still get some technicality wrong.

but I love you for blessing me with your convictions about the matter.

I might feel differently if I lived inside a Jewish community. I abide by the Elder/or Rabbi of a communities ruling on matters. That may sound like passing the buck but I believe unity far out weighs personal interpretation. I also believe that if the leader is causing me to stray that he will bare the consequences.

JMO
bananna
Actually banana, I understand you very well. I resonate with what you are saying. To say you abide by the community's decision makes PERFECT sense to me -- it's really very Jewish.

The difference between you and I, I think, is that I believe I must go through a formal conversion, where Israel welcomes me into their community, adopts me formally, before I can fully take on these things. You believe you have already done so, and that formal conversion is not necessary. That makes us actually very very similar, differing only in our views regarding conversion. Would you say I've summed things up?

[nasa1]

Ger wrote"Gentiles should do at least one thing which breaks shabbat, such as drive, or flip a light switch, in order not to observe shabbat in a 100% Jewish way, so that they can honor the understanding that G-d gave shabbat to Israel and not to the nations."




ROTFL


Since G-d gave not only the shabbat to Israel, but the whole Torah, how about the gentiles who keep torah commit a little adultery, or a little murder, so as not to take anything away from Israel!

[Bananna]

Actually banana, I understand you very well. I resonate with what you are saying. To say you abide by the community's decision makes PERFECT sense to me -- it's really very Jewish.

The difference between you and I, I think, is that I believe I must go through a formal conversion, where Israel welcomes me into their community, adopts me formally, before I can fully take on these things. You believe you have already done so, and that formal conversion is not necessary. That makes us actually very very similar, differing only in our views regarding conversion. Would you say I've summed things up?
I guess that is pretty close. I'm all for gentiles converting as they feel led to. I think it is natural for those immersed in Torah. My husband is not with me on this one, so I'm not seeking further as it stretches my family in the wrong manner moving too quickly with all of this.

bananna

[GerTzedek]

I guess that is pretty close. I'm all for gentiles converting as they feel led to. I think it is natural for those immersed in Torah. My husband is not with me on this one, so I'm not seeking further as it stretches my family in the wrong manner moving too quickly with all of this.

bananna
And I respect that a great deal as well. May HaShem be with you and with your family.

[GerTzedek]

infaith???? You still out there? I'm still waiting for your answer.

[TheRabbi]

Ger wrote"Gentiles should do at least one thing which breaks shabbat, such as drive, or flip a light switch, in order not to observe shabbat in a 100% Jewish way, so that they can honor the understanding that G-d gave shabbat to Israel and not to the nations."




ROTFL


Since G-d gave not only the shabbat to Israel, but the whole Torah, how about the gentiles who keep torah commit a little adultery, or a little murder, so as not to take anything away from Israel!



The entire Torah was given to Israel, but much of it was written for the nations as well and not all of it was written for every Jew.

I'm not a Cohen, so none of those laws apply to me. Nor am I a Levite or a woman, so none of those laws apply to me. There are commandments in the Torah that were given to Adam and to Noah and their descendants, they apply to all of their descendants, not just Israel.

The Sabbath, however, is declared by God Almighty to be an eternal sign between himself and the children of Israel.

In ancient Israel it was a death penalty offense for a non-Israelite to display this sign which God declared to be between he and the Israelites.

It's no different than the idea that an Israelite cannot eat the sacrificial meat reserved for the Cohanim. That's a separate deal between the priests and God and has nothing to do with me.

Different people have different roles in life. I accept mine, it's not fun. I wish "All flesh shall be meat for you" applied to me, but it doesn't. I wish I could offer sacrifices on the altar, but I can't. I'll be who God made me to be.

It's as if the whole earth complained to God because it's not the land of Israel and the land of Israel complained to God because it's not all Jerusalem and Jerusalem complains to God because it's not all the same as the temple mount and the temple mount complains because it's not the holy of holies and the holy of holies is mad because it's not the ark of the covenant and the ark of the covenant is upset because it's not the tablets of stone.

[nasa1]

Ger, when you are saved by Christ, you are a part of Israel and if you wish, you can keep the commandments. What you suggest is absurd at best.

NASA

[wpa59]

I can agree with Infaith insomuch that I think that Jews should be Jews and Gentiles should be Gentiles. However, I think it is wrong to disregard physical identity. While it has nothing to do with salvation, I think it has a lot to do with honoring and praising Hashem. When we honor and celebrate our various identities that He has given us - Jew or Gentile, male or female, country and region of origin, race or ethnicity I believe we honor Him and give Him praise for His creation. If He had wanted us to be born in another time in history in another place we would be. He knew us in our mothers' wombs before one of our days ever happened. Let us worship and thank Him for making us as we are.
(Its a different subject for another post but I do also believe that in every generation some Gentiles are called to join themselves to the Jewish people.)

[Bananna]

The entire Torah was given to Israel, but much of it was written for the nations as well and not all of it was written for every Jew.

I'm not a Cohen, so none of those laws apply to me. Nor am I a Levite or a woman, so none of those laws apply to me. There are commandments in the Torah that were given to Adam and to Noah and their descendants, they apply to all of their descendants, not just Israel.

The Sabbath, however, is declared by God Almighty to be an eternal sign between himself and the children of Israel.

In ancient Israel it was a death penalty offense for a non-Israelite to display this sign which God declared to be between he and the Israelites.

It's no different than the idea that an Israelite cannot eat the sacrificial meat reserved for the Cohanim. That's a separate deal between the priests and God and has nothing to do with me.

Different people have different roles in life. I accept mine, it's not fun. I wish "All flesh shall be meat for you" applied to me, but it doesn't. I wish I could offer sacrifices on the altar, but I can't. I'll be who God made me to be.

It's as if the whole earth complained to God because it's not the land of Israel and the land of Israel complained to God because it's not all Jerusalem and Jerusalem complains to God because it's not all the same as the temple mount and the temple mount complains because it's not the holy of holies and the holy of holies is mad because it's not the ark of the covenant and the ark of the covenant is upset because it's not the tablets of stone.
Better to be dead disobeying man than live without the Sabbath God gave from the foundation of the world.

Also for your information since you may not know, Yeshua said the sabbath was created for Man not man for the sabbath. So for a follower of Yeshua Sabbath is for all man.

Bananna

[Lulav]

Ger wrote"Gentiles should do at least one thing which breaks shabbat, such as drive, or flip a light switch, in order not to observe shabbat in a 100% Jewish way, so that they can honor the understanding that G-d gave shabbat to Israel and not to the nations."




ROTFL


Since G-d gave not only the shabbat to Israel, but the whole Torah, how about the gentiles who keep torah commit a little adultery, or a little murder, so as not to take anything away from Israel!


Why do you come here to condemn us? What is your purpose? Laughing and ridiculing us, don't you have anything better to do? Do you think the love of G-d is in you when you say things like this? It sounds very much like you envy Jews, at least in this [post, I have seen it look like something even worse in others.


One of the ten commandments is to not covet. And read Romans 1:28 onward, covetousness is joined with unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, maliciousness, envy, murder, deceit and more...........

Ger, when you are saved by Christ, you are a part of Israel and if you wish, you can keep the commandments. What you suggest is absurd at best.

NASABeing joined to the olive tree does not make you the olive tree. It is not a wish to keep G-ds commandments, as 1Cor 7 says circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of G-d. Let every man ( and woman) abide ( stay) in the same calling where he was called.

[Lulav]

Better to be dead disobeying man than live without the Sabbath God gave from the foundation of the world.

Also for your information since you may not know, Yeshua said the sabbath was created for Man not man for the sabbath. So for a follower of Yeshua Sabbath is for all man.

BanannaFrom what I've learned this is a Christian teaching, do you believe in one law for both Jew and gentile bananna? Do you not believe that somethings were for Jews alone?

If the Sabbath is for a follower of Yeshua how can it be for all men?

Take for instance if the Sabbath is made for man then maybe it means that gentiles should rest on it. However the Jews were told to Remember and observe it with specific dos and don't that I believe are for Us alone to do, to show a separation from the world and its heathen ways.

[Bananna]

The point of grafting stock to a tree root is to produce fruit. The Rootstock of itself is rarely the best of fruit, but rather strong and providing vigorous life. Normally the wild rootstock becomes grafted to the cultivated branches.

In the case of the olive a bitter fruit that must be treated to leach out the bitterness, whether ripe or unripe it is not palettable of itself.

In the case of grafting in the branches. What is the purpose of grafting in a wild olive to a cultivated stock?

Bananna

[Bananna]

Lulav,
There is one Torah. It never said that there was to be one law for the gentile and one for the Israelite. Dueteronomy 31 clearly states there is one law for all : Jews and servants and strangers.

What I believe is God's word. While I study the sages, there are clearly disagreements among the Rabbis on these things. I hardly think then we would come to an agreement.

Some laws do not apply to me true. However many are simply not prohibited according to God's word. Doesn't say I have to ask the peoples permission. It says in Isaiah if I "lay hold and keep"

God said not to profane the sabbath, not to work, not to buy and sell. It doesn't make it a sign that I'm Jewish. Its a sign that He is my God. Laying hold of the promise and laying hold of the Torah does not make me Jewish. Nor am I prehibbited from keeping God's commands because I'm a foreigner.

This is not replacement theology. There is only One God in heaven and earth to worship and only One law that tells us how.

bananna