Are Gentiles chosen or not?

[Sabian]

The term the Jews are the Chosen ones?
What would the YAHUDAH that say they are YAHudah and are not be called.
If YAHSHUA did not concider them YAHudah then what did HE concider them ?
How about the term Rightious Gentile?
I thought none were Rightious but one YAHSHUA?
That term seems to be man made also.
What make you a rightous man?

And can Everybody give me their understanding of these verses.
Rom 15:14 I myself am also persuaded about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish others.

Rom 15:15 But I write the more boldly to you in part, as reminding you, because of the grace that was given to me by God,

Rom 15:16 that I should be a servant of Messiah Yeshua to the Gentiles, serving as a Kohen the Good News of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be made acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 15:17 I have therefore my boasting in Messiah Yeshua in things pertaining to God.

Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any things except those which Messiah worked through me, for the obedience of the Gentiles, by word and deed,
( humm Is that leagelizm?)
( obedence to what word?)
(Gentile do not know how to be obedent to the word?)

Rom 15:19 in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of ELOHIM's Spirit; so that from Yerushalayim, and around as far as to Illyricum, I have fully preached the Good News of Messiah;
Rom 15:20 yes, making it my aim to preach the Good News, not where Messiah was already named, that I might not build on another's foundation.

Rom 15:21 But, as it is written, "They will see, to whom no news of him came. They who haven't heard will understand."

Rom 15:22 Therefore also I was hindered these many times from coming to you,

Rom 15:23 but now, no longer having any place in these regions, and having these many years a longing to come to you,

Rom 15:24 whenever I journey to Spain, I will come to you. For I hope to see you on my journey, and to be helped on my way there by you, if first I may enjoy your company for a while.

Rom 15:25 But now, I say, I am going to Yerushalayim, serving the Set apart ones.
(What Set apart ones are they talking about here?
They are in Yerushalayim? Are they YAHudah?
Do you think the YAHUDAH that rejected YAHSHUA would be concidered Set Apart Ones?)
Rom 15:26 For it has been the good pleasure of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the Ste Apart Ones who are at Yerushalayim.

Rom 15:27 Yes, it has been their good pleasure, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, they owe it to them also to serve them in fleshly things.
( Very interesting verse here what do you make of it?)
Rom 15:28 When therefore I have accomplished this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will go on by way of you to Spain.

Rom 15:29 I know that, when I come to you, I will come in the fullness of the blessing of the Good News of Messiah.

Rom 15:30 Now I beg you, brothers, by our MASTER YAHSHUA the Messiah, and by the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in your prayers to ELOHIM for me,

Rom 15:31 that I may be delivered from those who are disobedient in YAHudah, and that my service which I have for Yerushalayim may be acceptable to the SET APART ONES;

Rom 15:32 that I may come to you in joy through the WILL of ELOHIM, and together with you, find rest.

Rom 15:33 Now the ELOHIM of shalom be with you all. Amein.

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Yes, I would say the gentiles are choosen as well, but not the way of the gentiles. If you can understand that. The gentiles(Non-Jews or rather Non-Israelites) who obey YHVH are choosen. Also those who claim to be Jew or Israelite and don't obey YHVH are cut off.

Shalom,
Tag

[Superman]

Yes, I would say the gentiles are choosen as well, but not the way of the gentiles. If you can understand that. The gentiles(Non-Jews or rather Non-Israelites) who obey YHVH are choosen. Also those who claim to be Jew or Israelite and don't obey YHVH are cut off.

Shalom,
Tag

Im down with that.

Basically, the argument Paul makes in Romans (in particular Romans chapter 9) is not that the Gentiles have been chosen in place of the Jews, but that the "Church" has been chosen to carry on His work over the ethnic nation of Israel. In fact, Paul says the church was a mystery, but was always part of the Divine plan. Not because He didnt want to deal with the nation of Israel anymore, but so mankind as a whole could be one again (the way God intended it to be) and that can only happen if men are in Christ.

The Church has no ethnic boundaries, it is comprised of Jews AND Gentiles. This is why Paul used lots of language to describe being a new creation in Christ, and all of that. There is no Jew or Greek in Christ. There is a unified body working to do His will on earth, which is mainly evangelizing more Jews and Gentiles.

This of course did not sit well with the Jewish leaders of the time (nor does it now) but that is why:

1. Paul made his arguments about the Church being the elect/chosen, because believers are "in Christ." Being a physical decendant of Abraham has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with believing in Jesus as the promised seed of Abraham (See Galatians 3).

2. Gentiles are NOT to boast concerning their status as "chosen" (Romans 11) becase in fact, thhe Gentiles are NOT chosen. The Church is chosen, and the Church is made up of both Jews and Gentiles. In fact, the early Church were ALL Jews.

Jews can still be "chosen" if they dont continue in doubt and "enter into Christ." If all are equal "in sin," then all must be equal "in Christ."

Therefore, if anyman is in Christ, he is a new creature, based on what Christ did. God declares those who are in Christ to be "righteous" because of what Jesus did, not because a Jew follows the law or a Gentile is a good moral person. It all has to do with Christ's righteousness, and whoever is "in Him."

Hope that made sense. :)

[Stormy]

I do not believe that the Jews were chosen to be the only people of God... but instead they were chosen for exactly what happened... to be the people from who the Messiah would come.

The love of Christ is for all who believe.

We are made righteous only through faith.

[Henaynei]

It seems to me that before one can adequately answer this question one first has to answer another question:

Chosen for what?, i.e. what do you mean by "chosen?"

[Sabian]

It seems to me that before one can adequately answer this question one first has to answer another question:

Chosen for what?, i.e. what do you mean by "chosen?"Yes that is a huge part of why I ask these questions.


Stormy
(I do not believe that the Jews were chosen to be the only people of God... but instead they were chosen for exactly what happened... )

Exactly what did happen. Some YAHUDIM accepted YAHSHUA and most did not. But truely some were baptised in the name of YAHSHUA.
So what are you thinking of?

[Henaynei]

I do not believe that the Jews were chosen to be the only people of God... but instead they were chosen for exactly what happened.
What we "believe" not with standing - what does HaShem say is the reason He chose the Jew?

G-d says the Jews are holy, peculiar, chosen above all the people of the earth. Thus it is clear that while He has many people(s) who are His, the Jew is singular and unique in his place in G-d's plan and universe.


D'varim (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Deuteronomy+7%3A6-8&section=0&version=str&new=1&oq=&NavBook=de&NavGo=7&NavCurrentChapter=7)
7:6 For thou art an holy (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06918&version=kjv)people (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05971&version=kjv) unto the L-RD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) thy G-d: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) the L-RD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) thy G-d (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) hath chosen (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0977&version=kjv) thee to be a special (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05459&version=kjv)people (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05971&version=kjv) unto himself, above all people (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05971&version=kjv) that are upon the face (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06440&version=kjv) of the earth. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0127&version=kjv)7:7 The L-RD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) did not set his love (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02836&version=kjv) upon you, nor choose (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0977&version=kjv) you, because ye were more (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07230&version=kjv) in number than any people; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05971&version=kjv) for ye were the fewest (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=04592&version=kjv) of all people: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05971&version=kjv)7:8 But because the L-RD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv)loved (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0160&version=kjv) you, and because he would keep (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=08104&version=kjv) the oath (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07621&version=kjv) which he had sworn (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07650&version=kjv) unto your fathers, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01&version=kjv) hath the L-RD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) brought you out (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03318&version=kjv) with a mighty (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02389&version=kjv)hand, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03027&version=kjv) and redeemed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06299&version=kjv) you out of the house (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01004&version=kjv) of bondmen, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05650&version=kjv) from the hand (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03027&version=kjv) of Pharaoh (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06547&version=kjv)king (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=04428&version=kjv) of Egypt. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=04714&version=kjv) D'varim 14:2 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=de+14:2&version=str&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)For thou art an holy (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06918&version=kjv)people (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05971&version=kjv) unto the LORD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) thy God, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) and the LORD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) hath chosen (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0977&version=kjv) thee to be a peculiar (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05459&version=kjv)people (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05971&version=kjv) unto himself, above all the nations (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05971&version=kjv) that are upon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06440&version=kjv) the earth. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0127&version=kjv)

Deuteronomy 26:19 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=de+26:19&version=str&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)And to make (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05414&version=kjv) thee high (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05945&version=kjv) above all nations (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01471&version=kjv) which he hath made (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06213&version=kjv), in praise, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=08416&version=kjv) and in name, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=08034&version=kjv) and in honour; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=08597&version=kjv) and that thou mayest be an holy (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06918&version=kjv)people (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05971&version=kjv) unto the LORD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) thy God, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) as he hath spoken (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01696&version=kjv).

Deuteronomy 28:9 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=de+28:9&version=str&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)The LORD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) shall establish (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06965&version=kjv) thee an holy (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06918&version=kjv)people (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05971&version=kjv) unto himself, as he hath sworn (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07650&version=kjv) unto thee, if thou shalt keep (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=08104&version=kjv) the commandments (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=04687&version=kjv) of the LORD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) thy God, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) and walk (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01980&version=kjv) in his ways. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01870&version=kjv)

[Sabian]

(G-d says the Jews are holy, peculiar, chosen above all the people of the earth. Thus it is clear that while He has many people(s) who are His, the Jew is singular and unique in his place in G-d's plan and universe.)


I agree with your statement here but have to ask this question.

What do you think the true indentity of YAHudah is?
Is it the ones that rejected YAHSHUA or the Ones that excepted YAHSHUA?

[Henaynei]

I agree with your statement here but have to ask this question.
What do you think the true indentity of YAHudah is?
Is it the ones that rejected YAHSHUA or the Ones that excepted YAHSHUA?
I believe that there are various workable and applicable definitions of Jew, and I am sure you are familiar with them: National identity, cultural identity, genetic or biological identity and religious identity. Each of these has their legitimacy in various situations.

Addressing only religious identity I would say that a Jew is one according to the definition G-d gave at Mt. Sinai - My people = who keep my commandments.

Shalom - may you have an easy fast,
Henaynei

[Sabian]

If you reject YAHSHUA as your Example of the WORD of the FATHER.The True way we are to live.
Do you also reject the LAW of the FATHER?
See what I'm saying . I'm sure there were Jews that thought they were doing it right.
But when they saw YAHSHUA ,who was doing it right they rejected HIM.
So much so that they excepted Barabbas instead,
And killed YAHSHUA.
But not all YAHudah rejected YAHSHUA..
The disciples are examples.
Paul is clearly called a YAHudah but came from the tribe of Benjamin.
That shows me that blood was not a qualification.
So I agree with (Addressing only religious identity I would say that a Jew is one according to the definition G-d gave at Mt. Sinai - My people = who keep my commandments.)


( Barabbas's name was Iesous)
(Bar-abbas means Son of the FATHER)
Just some information I thought you might not know

[Henaynei]

If you reject YAHSHUA as your Example of the WORD of the FATHER.The True way we are to live.
Do you also reject the LAW of the FATHER?
See what I'm saying . I'm sure there were Jews that thought they were doing it right.
But when they saw YAHSHUA ,who was doing it right they rejected HIM.
You know - I don't see any more Jews rejecting Yeshua than non-Jews. The fate of those who truly reject Him is the same no matter what their label.

HOWEVER, most Jews who pray the Siddur with Kavanah are not rejecting G-d's salvation nor His salvific intervention. In fact they repeatedly petition "Our Salvation" (y'shua'taynu) and the "right hand/arm of G-d." If you do a study on the phrasiology around "right hand/arm of G-d" you will find that rabbinic understanding is that it is the Moshiakh.

Do most Jews reject Jesus?? So do I. (*note to self: get out the fishing pole, I think you just opened a can of worms. And keep the asbestos underware handy.)

The "Messiah" presented to them over the last 2000+ years is a Goyisha poly-diety murderer that they are blamed for killing - so who would accept such a one when your life is dedicated to the One G-d Israel who holds saving a life as pinacle service?

A wise pastor was once heard to say: "I think we may be just as suprised by the number of people in heaven that we were sure wouldn't be there, as by the number we were sure would, that aren't."

G'mar Khasima Tovah
May your fast be easy

[SonWorshipper]

You know - I don't see any more Jews rejecting Yeshua than non-Jews. The fate of those who truly reject Him is the same no matter what their label.

HOWEVER, most Jews who pray the Siddur with Kavanah are not rejecting G-d's salvation nor His salvific intervention. In fact they repeatedly petition "Our Salvation" (y'shua'taynu) and the "right hand/arm of G-d." If you do a study on the phrasiology around "right hand/arm of G-d" you will find that rabbinic understanding is that it is the Moshiakh.

Do most Jews reject Jesus?? So do I. (*note to self: get out the fishing pole, I think you just opened a can of worms. And keep the asbestos underware handy.)

The "Messiah" presented to them over the last 2000+ years is a Goyisha poly-diety murderer that they are blamed for killing - so who would accept such a one when your life is dedicated to the One G-d Israel who holds saving a life as pinacle service?

A wise pastor was once heard to say: "I think we may be just as suprised by the number of people in heaven that we were sure wouldn't be there, as by the number we were sure would, that aren't."

G'mar Khasima Tovah
May your fast be easy
I agree with this, but when it is to the advantage, the ones saying that they are no longer the chosen, somehow still hold up the Jews to a higher standard of living, go figure:rolleyes:

Yes, Salvation is meantioned a lot in the prayers and when I say them I also pray that those who haven't seen him, Moshiach, Yeshua there will have their eyes opened and see what they have been praying for all along.


Do most Jews reject Jesus?? So do I. (*note to self: get out the fishing pole, I think you just opened a can of worms. And keep the asbestos underware handy.)
LOL!:D I always wondered what I was missing and in need of, that asbestos underware! Now where can I get me some of that? ;) :D

[simchat_torah]

Henaynei,

Welcome to my side of the fence... oh, and have your arms open to welcome the coming persecution... lol

Just kidding. Sorta. ;)

[Henaynei]

I agree with this, but when it is to the advantage, the ones saying that they are no longer the chosen, somehow still hold up the Jews to a higher standard of living, go figure

Yes, Salvation is meantioned a lot in the prayers and when I say them I also pray that those who haven't seen him, Moshiach, Yeshua there will have their eyes opened and see what they have been praying for all along.
NOW, I'm beginning to relax! I was still trying to figure out who and "where" you people are!! :cool:


LOL! I always wondered what I was missing and in need of, that asbestos underware! Now where can I get me some of that?
Hmmm.... I think you can find them on eBay or maybe I could get you a pair for Khannukah!! Let's see --- your size would be?? (you plan to wear them inside or on the outside!!) LOL:blush:


Welcome to my side of the fence... oh, and have your arms open to welcome the coming persecution... lol
Just kidding. Sorta
Wheeew! I was beginning to think I was the only one out in this "left field!" Glad for the company - the traveling gets mighty lonesome at times and I was beginning to think this forum was saturated with quazi-nomians, hyper-myopic self-styled theologians and people with a spiritual parental complex.

Now I know I am not the only nut in the bag!

[simchat_torah]

Wheeew! I was beginning to think I was the only one out in this "left field!"
[/quote

Nah, there's still a few of us more 'traditionally' Jewish believers... hehe...

[quote]
I was beginning to think this forum was saturated with quazi-nomians, hyper-myopic self-styled theologians and people with a spiritual parental complex.
Hmmm... I think you just described 98% of MJ'ism. hehe...


Now I know I am not the only nut in the bag!


I think that Sojeru has jumped into that bag as well... it's starting to get crowded in here...
I used to be the only one in this bag, now you two have shown up. Oy Vey.

;)

[Henaynei]

Hmmm... I think you just described 98% of MJ'ism. hehe...

********
Nah, there's still a few of us more 'traditionally' Jewish believers... hehe...

I think that Sojeru has jumped into that bag as well... it's starting to get crowded in here... I used to be the only one in this bag, now you two have shown up. Oy Vey.


Well, if all y'all don't mind a mouthy, opinionated, aging southern shiska with a heretical attitude who loves Torah, Messiah Yeshua and loves serving His people - then move over there and make some room!!
;)

Lila Tov!

[simchat_torah]

Mind? bah, I guess every dog has it's fleas. :P

[Henaynei]

Mind? bah, I guess every dog has it's fleas. :P
LOL - but the question is - can you get your hind lag up to scratch your ear?? :)

[blessed2]

Beautifully put Sabian.
I do believe that the jew has a special assignment to fulfill yet to come as in the 144,000 of Rev. Too that the gentiles that have cleaved to G-d have been grafted into the vine where the jewish people are the natural branches...adopted so to speak. Thank G-d for his plan to include me....and Praise for life in these times to see this scripture unfolding and the completion so near.

Rom: 11:25

[simchat_torah]

I am curious as to see Yatziv's perspective on this topic.

[blessed2]

Am I mistaken to think that you all may have experienced some bashing here or perhaps some anti-Semitic experiences?
I guess I ask because it seems from some of the posts i read in the forums that there's some guard up....I know I've heard the phase anti-semitic but I've never witnessed anything myself and have difficulty in understanding it or fathoming it.....then I think that's a good thing! That has no place in the heart of those who love G-d.

[simchat_torah]

Yes, in fact, we experienced it here on these forums for a brief stint. It seems to rear it's ugly head once in awhile. In fact, the moderators (I think it was them?) started a thread to discuss antisemetic doctrines (specifically replacement theology).

I think that SW and P4I could better answer your questions in that regard.

I myself have encountered it numerous times in real life. The synagouge I went to in college had a large swastika painted on the back of the building and bricks thrown in through the windows with a picture of the Rabbi and death threats tied to these bricks. It turned out to be a fanatical christian group, who's leader is now in jail (Matt Haile... sp?).

That's only one example of many real life things I've encountered along my way.

shalom 2 u,
yafet.

[simchat_torah]

The very title of this thread is difficult to swallow.

G-d has a calling on every person. He loves all.

Yet there are specific purposes for certain groups to carry out in a prophetic story book called eternity.

Everyone is a part of this story, and every role is different.

So.... Does the Gentile have a calling? Yes. Is it the same calling as a Jew? no. The Jews were specifically 'chosen' to carry on the oracles of G-d down through the generations.

-Yafet.

[Sabian]

(The very title of this thread is difficult to swallow.)

I do not mean to say that a gentile can not be chosen ,or grafted in. But it just seems to me that they would no longer be a gentile after they are chosen, or grafted in.

[Henaynei]

(The very title of this thread is difficult to swallow.)

I do not mean to say that a gentile can not be chosen ,or grafted in. But it just seems to me that they would no longer be a gentile after they are chosen, or grafted in.
Gentile means "nations", or of the nations - specifically non-Jews. It does not mean g-dless, idolaters or pagan. Pagan means pagan, idolaters or g-dless.

Seeking answers in scripture one is drawn to the example of Zaken Ya'akov (the Elder James) in Acts - "see how many there are of the Gentiles which believe?" If this had been a wrong designation I am sure that Rav Sha'ul would had stood in their defense as he was not known for being mealy-mouthed or a yes-man.

It would be no different to say Jews which believe. There were/are certainly both Jews and Gentiles that did not believe. Not believing does not make a Jew a Gentile - how can believing make a Gentile a Jew??

[simchat_torah]

But it just seems to me that they would no longer be a gentile after they are chosen, or grafted in.
Yes, it is very true that according to Jewish Halacha... a Jew by birth may not refer to a
Proselyte's (gentile convert to Judaism) past after he/she has undergone conversion rites.

Once they have completed their conversion, it is illegal for a Jew to remind a proselyte of their past. This is based in part on the passage concerning not mixing meat and dairy (kid in its mother's milk).

Shalom,
yafet.

[Anew]

Personally, I feel that the concept of being "the chosen ones" is frequently misunderstood. Yes,.. the descendants of Abraham were indeed "chosen" to be seeded amoung the people of the world to spread Gods word. And in payment for taking on this enormous, and usually unappreciated task, God made a covenant with those people,.. the Jews. God knew that he was placing quite a burden on them by making them the original messengers of his word. That's why the covenant was necessary,.. a covenant which said, essentially, that no matter what they encountered along the way,.. regardless of how hard their hearts may become from the tribulations that they would encounter as a result of spreading his word, God wouldn't turn his back on them,...... ever.

[blessed2]

I myself have encountered it numerous times in real life. A Christian group? Crazy.
" the greatest cause of atheism today is "Christians" who profess Him with their mouths yet deny Him in how they conduct thier lives."

[AnthonyForChrist]

A Christian group? Crazy.
" the greatest cause of atheism today is "Christians" who profess Him with their mouths yet deny Him in how they conduct thier lives."
I think "the powers of spiritual darkness" like to manipulate that to their advantage. If we're not salty or lighting, then no one is. The body of Christ has been entrusted with a big responsibility, and the Evil One likes to prevent those who have been "grafted in" from realizing just what that is. He's being working vehemently on the church for millennia, and the rotten fruits of his efforts are paying off, for now. Seeing how we realize this, we need to spread the truth as simply and plainly we can, being sure to clear up misconceptions of the faith when opportunities to do such arise. To establish a brotherhood of believers of all cultures, being careful not to use our knowledge or convictions in an alienating way, is our goal, relying on the Spirit to do His work. We must not hinder relaying the gospel, which is done in an experiential language to be felt by the heart, not flowery language to intice the mind. The ideas of the mind change their course as frequently as do the winds, but the witness of the heartfelt Spirit is concrete and cannot be denied. In our postmodern world, logic and reason are no longer viable options to witness with. As is evident in the New Age movement, people are seeking the experience of spirituality. Luckily, the Spirit speaks in an emotional language. So then, let us use this opportunity to step aside and allow Him to emerge in the lives of the seeking many, who seek to feel and not merely understand.

[SonWorshipper]

Very profound Anthony :) and also very true.